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			== Citation to add for Early history ==
	*]:<br/><small>], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]</small>
			For "The first recorded usage of Eurṓpē as a geographic term is in the Homeric Hymn to Delian Apollo:"

			https://en.wikipedia.org/Homeric_Hymns has the date of publication as 522 BCE, "Burkert 1979, p. 61; Graziosi 2002, p. 206; Nagy 2011, pp. 286–287."
	*]:<br/><small>], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]</small>

			Burkert, Walter (1979). "Kynaithos, Polycrates, and the Homeric Hymn to Apollo". In Bowersock, Glen W.; Burkert, Walter; Putnam, Michael C. J. (eds.). Arktouros: Hellenic Studies Presented to Bernard M. W. Knox on the Occasion of his 65th Birthday. Berlin: de Gruyter. pp. 53–62. ISBN 9783110077988.
	*]

			Graziosi, Barbara (2002). Inventing Homer: The Early Reception of Epic. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521809665.
	*]

			Nagy, Gregory (2011). "Reception of the Homeric Hymns". In Faulkner, Andrew (ed.). The Homeric Hymns: Interpretative Essays. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 280–333. ISBN 9780199589036. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)</small>

	==~~Size?~~==		== Europe page ==
			Wiki, if you're mentioning the Caucasian countries Georgia and Azerbaijan, why not mentioned the 3 rd republic "Armenia". ] (]) 02:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	How big is Europe in square km or miles? ]] 09:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

			:Armenia is mentioned at a couple of points in the article. ] (]) 04:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:There is a number of the total area of Europe at the bottom of the chart, but is it accurate? Europe has over 10,000,000 sq. km? It's supposed to be only a little larger than Australia (the smallest continent), which is slightly smaller than the contiguous USA (minus Alaska and Hawaii). The figure doesn't seem accurate. Just a heads up. ]] 10:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

			:Armenia is only "culturally" European (i.e. they think they are European). The country is located entirely south of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, it is geographically a part of Asia. ] (]) 05:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Europe (according to the most common definition) has a total area of about 10.2 million km² -- the figures in this article are accurate and and other volumes. Relatively, it is somewhat larger still than ] at which may refer to just the mainland (7.6 million km²) or may also include nearby islands like ] (together totalling 7.741 million km²) and ]), though only less than half the size of ] and slightly larger than the ] (7.825 million km²). A more precise area for Europe -- 10 176 246 km², or 3 929 071 mi² -- is indicated in the table below, which is the sum total of the countries listed in the table. ] 17:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
			::Please read the FAQ above. While Armenia is indeed ''geographically'' in West Asia, there are numerous political and geopolitical definitions which place Armenia (and also Cyprus) within a "wider Europe". There are also a few geographical definitions which place the ] region either entirely or partially within Europe. It depends on which definition is used, but generally speaking, Misplaced Pages uses the most expansive definitions in inclusion criteria's for Asia and Europe. That is why Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are mentioned in both Asia and Europe related articles and lists, with notes accompanying them to clarify their physical geography, versus their geopolitical and cultural adherence to either/both continents. This impartial stance has been the norm here for about a decade. Regards, ] (]) 18:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Basically, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are a bunch of Asian countries wanna be seen as European countries. If we use the ]'s definition of Europe, even the ] is a part of Asia. Hence, according to the British sources, the area of Europe is only approx. 10 million square kilometres.
			:::End of this debate. ] (]) 14:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

	== ~~Northern~~ Europe ==		== Area of Europe ==
	Many people consider Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania part of NORTHERN Europe (geographically and culturally) and NOT part of Eastern Europe. The "Eastern" connotation came after WWII during Soviet occupation times. I suggest you change this Misplaced Pages listing to this distinction.
	:According to UN classification they are a part of Eastern Europe. Historically thouse countries (especially Lithuania) were connected to Poland and Belarus, not those countries of Northern Europe. I understand though that you dont want to belong to one category with Russia, but it is historical fact.--] 11:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
	::Actually, please consult the , which clearly places the Baltic republics in Northern Europe. That's not to say that they are not commonly included in other reckonings for Europe -- i.e., Eastern Europe -- but, then again, almost all of the remainder of Europe can be classified in ] using obsolete ] methodology. This is not useful for the current purpose. Anyhow, the supporting notes clearly allow for various ] (i.e., "the following territories and regions may be subject to various other categorisations"). ] 12:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

			What is the exact area of Europe? According to this article, it is 10,186,000 sq. km, but according to the ] in my local library, it is 9,908,599 sq. km (they counted to the single digits!). Why are there a big difference between these sources? ] (]) 05:50, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Estonia has cultural connections to Sweden, a northern European country. The other two, Lithuania and Latvia, are definitely part of eastern Europe. It isn't inherently bad to be eastern European. This smacks of the Georgians or Armenians who got into such a huffy that at least part of their countries are in Asia, and thus they can be Asians, too. The Baltic states were also ruled by the Russian Empire before World War 2. ]] 10:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

			:Area will differ based on different definitions of Europe. ] (]) 08:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
	I don't see how Estonia or Latvia have connections to Belarus or Poland other than a brief
			:Because the Collins World Atlas is published by the British. They have included the ] as a part of Asia. ] (]) 14:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
	rule by the Polish-Lithuanian empire (only in the Southern part of Estonia) and being in the Soviet Union
	(which was NOT voulentary, the Baltic states were occupied during World War II until they regained independence). Estonians are Finnic peoples, they speak a language similar to Finnish. Latvians
	and Lithuanians are Baltic peoples, not Slavic as some suppose. Latvia and especially Estonia were ruled by Sweden, Denmark and the German order in history, the Baltic nations were in the Hanseatic league and currently, Latvia and again, especially Estonia have more connections with the Nordic countries, culturally (even as little things as the Northern European ] celebrations), lingually (Estonian to Finnish), historically, and above all - economically. Estonia had a population of Swedes living there until World War II when they had to escape invading Soviets. Estonia is even part of the Nordic Battalion Group and shows interest in joining the Nordic Council. Religiously, Lithuania is predominantly Catholic (as Central European nations) and Estonia and Latvia are Lutheran (as the Nordic countries). Russia and Belarus are Eastern Orthodox. ] 15:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

			== Armenia again ==
	:How economically? All the Baltic states, including Estonia, have economies more similar to OTHER eastern European countries than to western or northern European ones. ]] 10:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
			I see that I should have noted that the consensus ''is'' firmly established to include Armenia in the article for reasons given in a note. But therein lies the problem. The note reads "Armenia can be considered part of Eastern Europe or West Asia; it has strong historical and sociopolitical connections with Europe. The population and area figures include the entire state, respectively." This is just as much a justification for including Australia and Canada in the article, not making it clear at all why they're different. Since they aren't, this makes the justification look specious and ''ad hoc'' as though it's really being given only for the purpose of placating some group of people. This isn't a great impression for a Misplaced Pages article to give. At the moment, I'm not arguing one way or the about Armenia's inclusion but that the way it's been included looks almost like an acknowledgement that it doesn't really belong. ] (]) 18:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

			:As a standalone it might give that impression, but it comes after the much earlier Definition section which should provide a reader a reasonably clear understanding of the issue of Europe's 'borders'. Would an internal link, eg. "]", help? ] (]) 06:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
	The UN is a political organization with an agenda, I propose using the CIA Fact Book, which is academic in nature--] 05:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

			:Well, most countries outside Europe classify the countries of the ] region as Asian countries instead of European countries. The only one which classify these countries as European countries are themselves.
	:Yeah right. The CIA is inherently academic...--] 09:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
			:The same can be said of Cypus and Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan. ] (]) 14:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Is the Turkish peninsula west of Istanbul considered Europe? ==

			Europe orthographic Caucasus Urals boundary (with borders):
			https://en.wikipedia.org/Europe#/media/File:Europe_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary_(with_borders).svg

			Just asking, thanks. ] (]) 19:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
	:: The CIA's Clandestine Services are actually a very small part of the organization, the majority of what the CIA does is fact and information gathering, the Fact Book is part of the Library & Reference Publications section of the CIA it has an academic charter. It is often defered to as the final authority on any matters it covers, contact just about any university lib. to confirm--] 21:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
			:Yes it is considered Europe (as is also clear from the opening lines of the ] article.) ] (]) 20:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

			:Yes, ] is a part of Europe, but it is a geographical region, not a ]. ] (]) 07:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

	::Not more of that "the United States is fascist" conspiracy stuff. ]] 10:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	try not to confuse the NSA with the CIA, the NSA is a policy making body not the CIA.



	:::Ah, yet another ''mysterious'' sockpuppet.--] 21:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

	nope it was me! I switched from my laptop to my desktop and forgot to log in, hehe...--] 21:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

	I don't see how Lithuania or Latvia have connections to Nordics other than a brief rule by the Sweeden. Latvians and Lithuanians share same culture and mentality as poles or chehs, not scandinavians, fins or estonians. Baltic langues are quite similar to slavic (both have arhaic grammar). So sometimes they are united as balto-slavic langues;)

	==Chapter Biodiversity==
	Please correct the bad joke naming ] as "]"!! -- ], 5 October 2006
	:Adult amphibians are indeed mainly carnivorous, but larval amphibians are mostly herbivorous. Herbivorous larval anurans can be the dominant grazers on aquatic algae ! I will change it into larvae. ] 15:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

	== PROTEST!!!! EtymologIC CENSOR BY WIKIPEDIA ==

	I Could Not Find Here Anymore The Exact Roots Of Word "Europe".
	That It Has Been Once Placed Here As It Was A Derived Name From Sami Languages.

	'''Europe Reflects Being Western In Sami Languages. As Spelled "A-R-B" Or "G-R-B".'''
	Here Now, We Can Only Get Explanations From Greek Derivations Of Origin.

	Who Could Ever Be That Replaces Or Hides That Information? (Suggestion: A Broad-Face)
	Alternatively, Please Tell Me What You Name That Process.

	I Hope That I Have Lost My Research Ability Otherwise, I May Think Misplaced Pages Misleads
	Free Media.

	Pro'blame' Here, Is Not Hiding Etymology But Changing It.

	]
	The English Wp States That The Etymology Of "Europa" Is Greek, While The Greek Wp States That It Is Sanskrit!
	“The Name Europe Emanates From Sanskrit Word "E'rev", That Means West, In Order To It Distinguishes From The "Asoy'" That Meant East That Is To Say Asia.” (Babelfish-Translation Of Greek Entry) H@R@Ld 16:35, 19 June 2006 (Utc)

	'''Friend.. They Do Not Mislead Media.
	They Hide Facts That Has Been Placed Once Here As You Point Out.
	There Is A Censoring Mechanism For Constructing A Brave New World Here.
	Let Us Vote For Protest'''

	GULTEKIN M.GUMUSYAZICI

	Actually there is a further alternative to etymology of Europe, but this has been discarded as unacceptable because it damages IET orthodoxy and Greek nationalist sensitivities.
	It has been illustrated in several studies that Greeks are migrant populations that arrived in the area they occupy today sometime about 1200 years BCE. By this time the Israelites had already embraced sea trade routes that would eventually reach to Iberia and beyond. It is not inconceivable that on arriving in the area the ancient Greeks encountered Israelite trade outposts already present in the area. The visualized conversation between two mutually unintelligible speakers is probably not all that difficult, and some of the questions would have been logical and accompanied by much impromptu sign language and pointing.
	For the Israelites, who are prohibited from setting up colonies outside of the Promised Land, the only recourse was to indicate their general identity, which is neither that of Israel (this not being in use until Davidic Kingdom), nor tribal identity (this being associated only with lands in the former Canaan), and therefore they would have indicated that they were Evri, the general reference to Israelites as descendents of Abraham. The phrase for this is Evri-po meaning Evri be here. The identification of Jews as Evri is still present in the Slavic language. The use of Evri-po transcended into Evropa Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē, which is the word used by Hellenes. This change is not unexpected in a culture where language is transmitted without the benefit of writing, and therefore vowels are easily corrupted.
	--] 07:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

	Mrg3105's explanation is interesting and worthy of its own wiki page. For the Europe page, it would probably be most useful to acknowledge that any search for the etymological origins of Europe will have to be entirely speculative. as demonstrated by the above explanations, these stories can and will always be used to support various political beliefs. the best that we can do is sketch out the various sides of the debate and make it clear that there is no absolute answer to such a question. avoiding the false and stuffy certainties of the Encyclopedia Britannica should be part of Misplaced Pages's mission.] 20:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

	:Agreed, lets "make it clear that there is no absolute answer to such a question" --] 10:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

	== EUROPEAN FLAG ==

	I just look at the flag of United States of America and I see there are amount of stars that
	Reflects the number of states bordered in use.

	'''Now, I want to know which states are reflected in the flag of European Union.'''
	Is there any exact definition for European Union by own flag.
	Alternatively, does it not cover whole Europe continent? (Though there are no strict borders).
	: For information on the European flag see ]. Although the flag is most commonly associated with the ] (EU), it was initially used by the ] (COE) and was intended to represent ] as a whole as opposed to any particular organisation such as the EU or the COE. The stars does not represent the number of member states. Why it is the number of 12 is discussed on the ] page. Therefor the borders are very strict, as the the European Union has strict borders, as does the Council of Europe (the borders of the member states). ]\<sup>]</sup> 09:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

	'Guadeloupe is an archipelago located in the eastern Caribbean Sea at 16°15′n 61°35′w, with a total area of 1,780 square kilometers (687 sq. Mi). It is an overseas département (département d'outre-mer, dom) of France. As with the other doms, Guadeloupe is also one of the twenty-six régions of France (being a région d'outre-mer) and an integral part of the republic.
	As part of France, '''Guadeloupe is part of the European Union; hence its currency is the euro'''. Guadeloupe is however not party to the schengen agreement.'

	Can you please define what that flag has been designed for.?

	If there exist no accepted state for that imaginary foundation, (actually it is only an agreement),
	Would you please keep it clear waste paging from earths discussion.

	I want to example that situation as follow. There exists no crusader union defined.
	Crusaders do never have a flag representing a united state to have a place in history.

	:Very good. Are you by any chance an Ali G character? ] 16:09, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

	That has taken long time correct it grammatically

	"There exists no crusader union defined!" bravo! ''bravo!'' I have happy thought about being stucking at these defined crusader, for much great pleasure!

	== MAP????????????? ==

	Why does the grey politcal map have Scotland (U.K.) written on it? No other countries, which are actually federated (which the U.K. is not) have the regions marked on them? What is so special about Scotland to merit a mention when other non-soverign regions and nations are omitted? This must be either removed. altered to remove the mention of Scotland or it must be updated to mention all the other regions of Europe!


	UK is sort of halfway federated if you know what I mean. Scotland has a national assembly that has far more powers over its own affairs then the Welsh Assembly. For example, it has the power to set its own curriculum and make laws applicable only to Scotland. This has been the case since the Act of Union.
	Incidentally, the fact that Scottish MPs sit in the London Parliament is a major sticking point for many English as they wield disproportionate power in relation to English MPs.

	--] 11:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

	:But the point is that other regions are more federated than Scotland, and yet aren't shown as separate entities on the map. ]s have more power than the British home nations--they have their own powers, which the federal government cannot legally rescind or take away, yet often the United States is shown as a single solid color without showing any member state boundaries. ]] 10:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	"American states have more power than the British home nations--they have their own powers," Super powers. How exactly did you conduct this amazing comparison of radically different legal and political systems. Let me guess you started with the premise USA No. 1 and then got distracted by a whooshing noise on Fox. ] 23:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

	==Canary Islands==

	There is a big problem with those islands, Southern Europe or Northern African according to the UN?? The present article is based on the second, but the wiki article for Southern Europe includes the islands and the wiki article about NA excludes them. What to do...?

	'''Bold text'''== Why can't Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia be listed? ==

	Yes, I know they're part of an another country, but still, if they have de-facto control over their territory, why can't they be listed in the table? They're basically independent, but they just lack recognition. They could be listed as this Transnistria (Moldova)! This could help people learn about these mostly forgotten conflicts!

	It is a matter of how the United Nations recognizes it. If they are a part of another country, then why should they be listed separately? If they were to be listed separately, then what about Kosovo? ***Lindaige

	== Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Cyprus should have full listings in the table. ==

	There are many definitions of Europe, and in some of them these countries are listed, so why must Misplaced Pages follow one set defintion? I think it would be better if Misplaced Pages went through all these points.

	Why is Cyprus part of Europe? Isn't it in Asia? Only a pert of Turkey is in Europe, and Cyprus is much further away. If Cyprus is in Europe, then almost half of Turkey is too, right?

	:The countries in this table are categorized '''according to the scheme for geographic subregions used by the United Nations''', therefore those countries, although part of Europe according to some definitions, are not mentioned in the table! ]\<sup>]</sup> 08:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Geographically, Cyprus is FULLY PART OF ASIA. Since this is about the European subcontinent, it is iffy. Geographically, Cyprus shouldn't be in this article. However, culturally, Cyprus is traditionally considered European. ]] 10:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	::Cyprus is part of the EU, so obviously it is part of Europe! ] 21:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	:::Illogical: 'European Union' does not equal 'Europe'. Russia is not in the EU, nor are Norway and Switzerland, so they are not parts of Europe? The island of Cyprus is closest to Turkey (Asia Minor). As well, the Caucasus are sometimes included in Europe (particularly by those in ex-Soviet states, already stated in the article), sometimes not, but usually form its border with Asia. The ] (about which this table is generally based) includes Cyprus and the Caucasian states in Western Asia. Amidst all of this, there can be no doubt about one thing: all are constituents of ]. :) ] 21:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	Misplaced Pages does not follow one set definition of Europe. The article follows the defintion set by Corticopia, and all other definitions are not valid in her eyes. At first I thought her edits were based on ethnic anmosity and chauvanism, but in the end I realised it is just due to her ignorance, and refusal to admit it, and tenacity in watching and rv'ing any changes to this page. Behaviour that is common-as-muck for Misplaced Pages. So I lost interest. End of subject, really. ] 01:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

	:The only thing that is revealed in the above is ''your'' ignorance. And it's a he. Yes: end of subject. ] 01:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

	== And another point. ==

	The Aland Islands are listed in the table, okay, But why is it when I put the Crimea an equal automonous entity it gets deleted! I think the table would be more constructive if, you add regions to it, but by clearly stating that it is part of a country, but deserves to be acknowledge by this examples: Scotland (United Kingdom), Crimea (Ukraine), Sardinia (Italy), Basque Country (Spain) and so on.

	:I reverted you simply because it looked like vandalism, with a section reading: Interesting facts: "Yurop pwnz" etc. so if you want to change the article please at least do not bring in vandalism. ] (]) 01:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	::Recent table edits are being made without any apparent rhyme or reason, making the table effectively useless. As noted in the article, the entities currently listed are according to the , while allowing wiggle-room for those territories that are also considered Asian. ] 12:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	== Turkey is in Europe or not? ==

	I want this topic to be clearly discussed under this topic. I find it silly to put Turkey in the list of Asian countries. Anatolian side of Turkey is geographically in Asia and the Thrace side is in Europe. So, we have to see political and historical relationships of Turkey. I want ask how many of you have seen Turkey playing in Asian football cup? Why is Turkey accepted to be a candidate for European Union if it doesnt belong to Europe? If the deal is cultural history then i advise you to see Turkish constructions in Greece, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Macedonia, Serbia or visit a Museum in Wien to learn if Turks have ever been there. If a religious seperation is the reason, i have nothing to say...
	I strictly insist on this subject and would edit the entries that show Turkey in Asia unless a offical document is posted here. Please do not come back with absurd maps, because each of them has different borders that supports their unrealibility. I do not want to paint my own and post here. Thanks alot for your contributions..
	: People, people, this discussion starts every time again here! Please read the article more thorough! Like with Cyprus, etc, Turkey is not part of Europe according to the ] that is used here on Misplaced Pages. That is the reason Turkey is not included as European. But other definitions of Europe in the article DO include Turkey, it is even mentioned in the table! ]\<sup>]</sup> 09:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
	:: This has been discussed numerous times. According to the book The European Dream, it is technically possible for places like Morroco and Israel to join the EU should the Parliament choose to let them --] 11:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
	::Turkey is Historical and genetical(DNA) belong Europe Turkish race name is Europid/Turanid and Turanid race belon to European Family and finaly Turkey is in WEOG/Europe in United nations(http://en.wikipedia.org/Western_European_and_Others_Group)
	Sure Turkey is European <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 16:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
	Turkey is in both Europe and Asia, or Eurasia. ] 16:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
	:::Uh, since when are Turanids considered a European phenotype? They're spread throughout Central Asia and Turkey. Sorry to disappoint you, but the Turks are rarely considered white in European countries, except by politically correct censuses, that tend to believe that Azerbaijan is European as well.] 16:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

	Turkey is memeber of ILO-europe Unesco-europe and others,Turkey is always in european block ex:concil of europe(http://en.wikipedia.org/Western_European_and_Others_Group) and Turkey will join to EU in 2015 accordingly Turkey and Cyprus must be in Southern European Topic,Thanks for read it.]

	:This is not in dispute, but your edits are -- read this page and the archives about the current arrangement. And, per and other sources, Turkey -- and Cyprus -- are included in Asia. ] 16:42, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

	if its right,tell me where is europe or where is asia even bosphorus is enaugh for difference so Europe realy belong to asia europe is only region not continent like America OK? ]
	:The Bosphorus is generally seen as a border between Europe and Asia. So Turkey is in both Europe and Asia. However as told before, Misplaced Pages uses the ] for the tables and than Turkey is seen as part Western Asia. About your question on ]s: there are many models for the number of continents. Most of the times Europe is seen as a continent (like ] or ]), but sometimes as a subcontinent of ]. But please read! Everything has been explained already in the articles, talk pages and archives. ]\<sup>]</sup> 18:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

	== Propose Protection ==

	I just fixed several juvenile edits by some anon poster. I suggest making this article protected at least for the short term to keep it from happening again.

	] 18:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

	== ] - religion ==

	I've reverted the changes introduced by an anon IP whereby Northern Ireland was moved from the list of ''countries or areas with significant Catholic populations'' to the section of places with ''large Catholic minorities''. According to 40,26 per cent of the people declare themselves Catholic. Hardly a minority of the population. --] 10:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

	40.26% is still a minority (less than 50% is a minority). And in English, commas aren't used as decimal points. ]] 10:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	'''N.B.''' see below: '''Irish Religion'''
	] 11:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

	== Range of GDP - Czech republic is not the last ==

	Somebody included range of GDP in the EU, stating that czech republic was last. Brief look into the source shows there is many other EU countries that are lower on the list (Poland, Slovakia, ...). The last one I found was Latvia, so I changed it to it. Can anybody check the list whether I haven't overlooked something? --] 15:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
	:Indeed ] is the poorest nation. I corrected your small mistake though. --''']<span style="background:#008">] ]</span>''' 17:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
	::Thanks, I did not realize comma was not decimal separator. --] 17:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
	:::np --''']<span style="background:#008">] ]</span>''' 17:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


	==Central Europe?==

	I have noticed that there is no Central Europe in the list of regions.There are many countries which don't belong in certain groups,and are supposed to be pur in C.Europe categoryy.
	Some examples: ] - Certainly not in South Europe,],],],],],etc.
	I would like to see others' opinions on this issue. Sideshow Bob 21:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
	::I agree with you.--''']<span style="background:#008">] ]</span>''' 06:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
	:As indicated in the table/list of regions, with various notes, countries are listed and organized per the ]. As such, per that list, all the countries are precisely where they should be. ] 23:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
	The UN classification is indeed a preferred solution, and probably the only viable option, not least because Central Europe isn't a clearly delineated region. Incidentally, one or two countries ] argues are Central-European are probably everything but Central Europe. The fact remains that this can of worms is best left closed. The article has a potential to attain the FA status and the last thing we need is to turn it into a battlefield. In the absence of other acceptable solutions the ] is here to stay. --] 12:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

	What is ]? My reply contributes to ] geography by clarifying the mechanisms through which Central Europe is cast externally and internally as a place particularly imbued with culture and identity – a place whose integration with the EU and NATO represents its cultural ‘return’ to Europe. Accounts of Central Europe often mention the intellectual aura and humanist credentials of the region’s political elites. My empirical focus is on Central Europe, defined here as the 12 states of the former ] that acceded into the EU and/or NATO in 2004-2007. I use this term not to downplay the many differences among these states or to attempt a ‘representative’ account of them. I rather foreground a particular family resemblance among them – the marked reliance on ‘culture’ and ‘identity’ in foreign policy discourses. These countries are ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ] and ]. Central Europe is a malleable term. In the early 1990s, it generally denoted the three ] states. Over the decade, as several other countries, such as Lithuania, Romania and Slovenia, started branding themselves as Central European, common usage of the term gradually expanded. Today, Central Europe connotes the ] states that acceded into either the ] or ] in 2004 & 2007. While recognizing that ‘Central Europe’ conventionally refers to a more limited region, I use the term here because common alternatives such as ‘]’, ‘]’, ‘]’, ‘accession states’, or ‘]’ are all considerably more problematic. Central Europe is also a politically loaded term. It frames the countries thus labeled as inherently European while simultaneously casting the countries further east – the so-called ] – as culturally less European. In all 12 states, key foreign policy issues – especially ] and ] accession – are legitimized not as much through the vocabulary of strategy and interest as through the notions of identity and culture. Their cultural capital is a constitutive part of geopolitical discourses in Central Europe. ] is widely conceived both internally and externally as a place where culture and identity are especially important influences on state action. This conception frames Central Europe as a cultural entity and casts culture as a causal factor in foreign policy. ]. This cultural narrative is especially prevalent in discussions of EU and NATO accession, both of which are commonly cast as manifestations of Central Europe’s ‘return to the West’. ‘Europe’ and ‘Euro-Atlantic’ space as well as EU and NATO have come to function not as places or institutions, but as markers of identity. For Central Europeans ‘Europe represents not a geographical but a spiritual notion, one synonymous with the west’. Even during the accession negotiations that tackled everything from sweeping economic reforms to specifications on sausage manufacturing, foreign policy was discussed in terms of culture, identity, and western values. This is not to say that people in the accession states necessarily endorsed this bundling up of culture and geopolitics, but that public debates were based on it. During the ], culture was an important site of resistance to what was widely regarded as an imposed nonwestern political and cultural system – ] or ]. Indeed the very concept of Central Europe as it emerged in the 1980s was the product of identity construction by Central Europe’s intellectuals – not political scientists but writers and philosophers. Intellectuals played a key role in bringing down the socialist regimes, and Central Europe’s new post-socialist political elites include many of them.''']<span style="background:#008">] ]</span>''' 18:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

	:I really enjoyed reading your essay even though I can't say I agree with all the points you raised. In any case, I fear it's wasted here as Misplaced Pages doesn't allow ]. You might want to take it to ] discussion page here on English Misplaced Pages, or even try where, if I remember it correctly, there was a debate on the whole issue. --] 19:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

	What's with all this NATO guff, it has nothing to do with Europe. You mention sausage regulations and economic reforms, that's Europe. Human Rights, Free trade and the removal of war as a political tool is what Europe is about, not americas NATO nonsense. America would never be allowed to join the EU, their policy of executing children and torture is too inhuman. ] 00:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

	Every European, myself included, denotes Poland and surrounding countries as Central European. This Eastern denotation is such a North American thing to say. Misplaced Pages may not agree with me, but then that's Misplaced Pages's error. You tell any European that one of these nations is "Eastern" and they'll laugh you out of the pub or room you're in.

	Another problem I have is the inclusion of Turkey and the other Asian nations in the article. They're even labeled as Asian, so I really don't see why they're being documented as European. This is blatantly false and I find it ridiculous that Misplaced Pages would even allow for this to go uncorrected. ] 20:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

	*Actually, although it's a fact that countries such as Poland are located in Central Europe, for many Europeans it's okay to refer to them as Eastern European. Not much for their geographical location, but rather for their past location as east of the ].--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 23:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

	== Accession negotiations ==

	The first countries scheduled to join are Romania and Bulgaria, they are not mentioned in the lead section while Croatia and Turkey are. I don't know the correct status of the negotiations but Romania and Bulgaria should be mentioned first. Can someone fix this? ] \| ] 14:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
	:Fixed. Apparently, this bit was left out of the introduction some time after Dec 1. --] 15:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

	== Seven continents ==

	From what I've been able to find, Antarctica is considered to be "inhabited" as there is a permanent population, approximately 1 000 people year-round and up to 4 000 in the "summer". Based on that, I've changed the lead sentence from ''"Europe is one of the six inhabited continents of the Earth."'' to ''"Europe is one of the seven continents of the Earth."''. --''']'''''<small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small>'' 23:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
	:Works for me. ] 23:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

	::Thanks. Sorry, I forgot to add in my post that I had checked through the archives, and didn't notice any controversies with regards to describing Antarctica as inhabited. Lots of discussion as to whether Europe is a continent, but that's a whole different matter... --''']'''''<small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small>'' 00:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

	:::Great. I recently revised the lead to read 'seven' from 'six' -- while what constitutes a ] is largely a matter of perspective (which that article needs to do a better job of explaining), the implication that it is one of just ''six'' is rather ] (i.e., implication that ] and ] are separate continents (q.v. ]), while ] is not). I, too, contemplated revising it again as you did given your argumentation above. Anyhow, thanks! ] 00:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

	:Antarctica doesn't have much of a natural increase of population (babies being born there). Nor do most VISITORS settle down on the continent and make that place home. It hardly counts as inhabited any more than space is inhabited by humans (because of the ISS and Mir before that). And Eurasia should be considered a continent and North America and South America as separate continents--just look at a map--Eurasia is one large landmass connected to Africa by an ithmus. North America and South America are two large landmasses connected by an ithmus. The preceding sentence is opinion. ]] 10:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	== Cyrillic Alphabet ==

	I think the Cyrillic alphabet should be moved out of the Slavic languages section since there are Slavic languages written in Latin script and non-Slavic languages written in Cyrillic.--] 22:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
	:More Slavic languages write in Cyrillic than with something else. So, it stays.

	-G <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 03:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

	== The ] belongs to Europe ==

	If Asia can include the ], then why doesn't Europe include the Arab one? Each subcontinent is responsible for massively global culture divisions. Just look at the ] article. After all, the divisions between Europe and Asia are supposed to be based on biogeography and not plate tectonics. The funny thing is, that the Arabian and Indian subcontinents form this demarcation, through their ancient influences. Asia is not bigger than it really is. Geographic terminology should reflect culture, at least in differentiation between Europe and Asia. Europe and Africa have the most intimate relationship with the Arab region, but the Asian and Australian continents and their people have little or no such connections. Perhaps the confusion arose from Asian hordes conquering what is never called "West Asia" in conversation, but is written that way. Some mixed society arose with the Ottoman Empire, but who doesn't know the original name of Istanbul? Can we get some intelligent, well read contributors here who know the Levantine intermixture with Greco-Roman and Egyptian foundations is grounded in reality and not just Hollywood? Maybe I as a Christian should "forget" who the Three Wise Men were, if that is what others want in their ignorance. They were not Indian or Chinese in any form or fashion, but Western as my own bones. No land that was part of the Roman Empire could be "Mongoloid" or Asian in that Pacific sense. Perhaps such Asianists should look to the Indians of the Americas, instead of co-opting my ancient heritage for their own. ] 04:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

	:Continents should be considered GEOGRAPHICALLY, which you apparently don't have an accurate definition for. Europe is obviously not a continent--its border with Asia is far longer and more ambiguous than the ithmuses which divide Eurasia from Africa and the TWO American continents, and definitely more ambiguous than the ocean which separates Australia and Antarctica from other continents. Continent shouldn't be a cultural term. In that case, the two American continents and Australia would be part of Europe. ]] 10:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	Europe is a subcontinent in reality and there are actually a lot more simularities between non-eastern Asia than meets the eye. This is easily seen in the fact that Indo-Iranian cultures and language have a common heritage with the Greco-Romans (Indo-European languages and cultures). Geologically Eurasia is one continent. ] 22:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

	That's a Nazi theory. ] 22:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

	Huh? Are you feeling alright? Check out the ] article if you are confused. ] 23:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

	That is a theory advanced during the Darwinian era, which paved the way for a lot of unpleasant political situations. ] 23:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

	:Don't make Creationists look as though they are idiots.

	::Yes, do '''that'''! You'll get 10<sup>3</sup> PoHR (Points of Honorary Rhetorics) from ''ME''. (Giggering evilly, does:) <span style="background-color: #FFFF80; color: #800000">'']''</span> 12:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

	::You mean they aren't??? --] 07:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

	:Zachorious brings up decent points. Indo-European languages are related. It is obvious that Eurasia is (at least geographically) a continent--Europe isn't. Both points aren't particularly Nazi ideology, at least not much more than Nazis believed apples grew on trees (which they do--that's the point). ]] 10:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	==States of Europe==

	I know that there is a link to countries of Europe, but why isn't there an actual list - especially as the languages are listed. Both or neither?

	] 19:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

	== Irish Religion ==

	In the religion section Northern Ireland is described as being majority catholic while the Republic Of Ireland is described as being majority protestant. This quite clearly a mistake. Northern Ireland could now nearly be described as being split down the middle religion wise between catholic and protestant the Republic is most definitely majority catholic. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 01:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

	Both catholic and protestants are of the one religion, they arer both ''Christian''" but they are of separate ''denominations''. God Bless you all. ] 07:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC) - corrected ] 08:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

	== "The European Union also featured the world's largest economy" ==

	In the third paragraph, the second sentence begins "The European Union also featured the world's largest economy ..." I do not feel that I know enough about this topic to edit the article but (1) why "featured"? - it seems an odd word, I don't really see where the "featuring" comes in, surely it just ''is'' or ''has''; and (2) why is it in the past tense? Thanks, ] 10:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

	: Probably is a mistake. Featured, while it would make sense, is an odd word to use --] 11:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

	::By the same token, NAFTA sports an economy larger than the EU. The article is about Europe, not the EU. North America probably has a larger economy than Europe (at least if Asian Russia and Anatolia are cut out), with the United States only a little behind the EU (with almost 200,000,000 less people to build the economy, too), and Mexico and Canada and Central America and the Caribbean can probably rival the rest of Europe. ]] 10:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	== map ==
	]: countries coloured in blue have received the most influence from European culture, while those in green mix European and indigenous cultures.]]
	I have removed this map which is ] - who is to say exactly how much european influence countries have received? also, it does not include the ex-European colonies in Africa and Asia. --]<small>]</small> 04:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

	: What about the "western" cultures of ]? (one of the most advanced societies on earth), ]? (south of the US a major cultural influence of Mexican social life), ]? (a high human developmental index, despite the poverty gap and inequal distribution of wealth), ]? (the settlers came from Europe) and the few East Asian (] and formerly British outpost ]), and oil-rich Persian gulf countries adapted many European or "western" features? Not long ago (20 or 30 years ago) has the South Pacific islands became independent from European (British or French) rule. ] and ] are quite influenced by some degree of European influences, plus they are highly populated countries and like China and Japan, they are ancient civilizations. The map should included India and Pakistan shaded "green" at least, since they emerged to status as major global economic powers and both have developed nuclear weapons programs (they may use nuclear missiles against each other) in the past decade. ] 15:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

	:: Again, I point out the map has errors, and inaccuracy of what countries are direct or partially influenced by European culture. The flourishing and developed Asian economies of ], ], ], ], ] and recently, ], the ] and ] joined the list (east Asia should be shaded "green" on the map, but Japan shaded "blue") are indications of the final stage of development in the Asian ]. In the 1980's and '90s, global economists dubbed the Asian Pacific economic boom, especially in Japan and later in China, as the "Asian century". However, the boom includes the nearly-developed and free-market countries in Latin America, mainly on the Pacific coasts: ] (quite prospered in the NAFTA free-trade bloc), ], ], ], ], ] and ] (not in the Pacific coast, but possesses oil wealth under the leftist ] regime). I support the claims on ] or ], esp. since 1990, had a high degree of European (or "Euro-Latino") traits: culturally, economically, politically and socially, the two South American nations in the western and southern hemispheres seem to leaned more to Western Europe. The same case goes to very developed, but small populated Anglo-European countries of ] and ] are western countries (correct) but yet to compete in the global market economy dominated by Japan, the US and the EU. + ] 17:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

	::: Here's the last comment to post. In the 1960's and '70's, the Middle East was on its' way to become a world power, such as ] under a genial military leader, ] and his successor, ], created a major political force. ] under a 3,000 year monarchy and the Shah regime was heading the course of "westernization" before the Islamic revolution of 1978 deposed and exiled the Shah. But since 1980, most Arab countries had never reached a pinnacle of economic perfection and prosperity. Only the smaller and densely-populated Arab countries with large quantities and oil reserves like ], ], ] and the ] (Dubai) are ranked one of the world's most developed lands, except they have recently accepted the idea of representative democracy and moderate Islam in their theocratic governments. ] was once seen the "Muslim window of the west" but since the title went to ], also a secular developing country closely attached to Europe (and expected to join the EU in 2010 or later). And for ], their puritanical Islamic tradition has heavily clashed with rapidly-changing culture influenced by America and Europe. I wonder how the Middle East may chose the path to "westernization" or ], this is widely tested in post-Saddam era ] where civil war broke out between various Muslim sects in the middle of ] army occupation. + ] 17:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

	:::: Surely, if we're going to be pedantic, then we could shade the whole world light green or blue. The old colonial powers of Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Belgium, The Netherlands and Germany controlled most of the world between them in the 18th, 19th and early 20th Centuriesto differing degrees; apart from North America and East Asia, the world generally uses legal systems based on those of the old European powers. The European sphere of influence is also huge today - fashion, music, food, architecture, human rights, economical models, etc. There is no point creating a map, as you could basically describe the European sphere of influence as "most of the world, excluding authoritarian states." <small>—The preceding --] 12:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 12:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

	:::::It is the American (USA) sphere of influence that is big today, not Europe. At most, that would only be an indirect European sphere of influence, currently. ]] 10:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	:The map should have been removed. The article is about Europe, not a hypothetical European sphere of influence. ]] 10:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	== Sorry ==
	Ooops, I was only trying to clean up the formatting of the page as it looked terrible. Anyone care to help out and put it all back correctly as I don't seem to have made much impact!
	] 23:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

	== Micronations ==

	I think that someone should add something about the micronations established in Europe. It would be interesting to see what those are.
	] 02:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

	: Oh yeah...recently, a few radicals established a "micronation", the Republic of Sealand located off England in an abandoned oil rig in the North Sea, shows how nutty people can be. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 15:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

	== Baltic countries ==

	Why is Estonia a part of Eastern Europe while Latvia and Lithuania are part of Northern Europe? At the map on the page all three countries are shown as North-Europeans. (] 12:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC))

	== misstakable about slavic language in saxon and brandenburg ==
	This part sounds if saxon and brandenburg has a significant share of population which speaks a slavic language.
	The Sorbs (in german Sorben, serbja or serby in their own language) has only 60.000 speakers today.
	It`s of course an admitted minority in germany but in this text it can be misstakable.
	I think it`s better if we write "parts of saxon and brandenburg" that`s not perfekt but even better.
	You can see in wikipedia in the articel "sorbs" that I do not lie.
	Here is a link to the map which shows the parts of saxon and brandenburg in which sorbian speakers live today.

	Enkidu78 14. Feb. 2007

	== Cyprus is in Europe ==
	Is it not? what map are we folowing? i know that Armenia,Azerbaijan,Georgia are at the same situation but they are not part of the EU, Cyprus is, so shouldn't it be part of Europe? It plays in the euro division in soccer, i could go on forever those are just a few examples, The people in cyprus consider themselves as part of europe, Couldwe make some kind of agreement over cyprus? should it be europe or asia? should it be divided on TRNC and Cyprus?

	== Europe topic was messed up by someone! =='''
	Everyone, someone deleted all the content for "Europe", and posted some trash about their gf I think.
	So I deleted that and put in a short description. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 22:55, 17 February 2007(UTC).</small>

	== Map ==

	Image:Europe religion map en.png The map regarding religion should be reworked. you can hardly distinguish prots from caths.--] 02:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

	== Repeated removal of Svalbard and Jan Mayer from 'Regions of Europe' list. ==

	It has come to several editors' attention that some individuals are repeatedly removing Svalbard and Jan Meyer from the list of territories and regions of Europe. The parties engaging in this behavious have not offered even one word of discussion for their repeatedly doing so, neither here on the discussion page, nor even in an edit summary. They just silently blank it out each time it is re-added.

	This is totally against wikipedia protocol. Instead of edit warring, it is considered vastly preferable to explain actions that involve content dispute, and all the reasons for or against them, here on the discussion page. So, I would like to give those editors who apparently do not think Svalbard and Jan Meyer are one of the parts of Europe, the opportunity to make their case in the space below. If they continue to refuse dialogue, this will be reported as run-of-the-mill vandalism, and administrative action against them will be requested. ] (]) 00:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
	:I believe an offending editor believes that (per initial edit summaries, but despite notes on page etc. and parallel examples (e.g., Finland, UK)), Svalbard/Jan Mayen are "parts of Norway, no need for separate listing" and that "Norway has complete sovereignty, no need for separate listing." Otherwise, CS, I agree with you wholeheartedly. ] 10:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

	: Why are islands such as ], ] and ] not listed? ] 13:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

	::Table per UN list of regions/territories; details in article. ] 17:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

	::: And yet the UN has no say in this matter whatsoever. Why are the ] and ] islands not listed? They obviously belong to Norway – you do know this? Why are the United Kingdoms, the German bundesländer or the Swiss cantons not lised separately? Stop making up this nonsense. ] 22:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

	Perhaps there is room for some clarification in the table, given the exceptional circumstances of ]. All the other special case entries appear to be distinct dependencies or the like, while Svalbard is Norwegian territory which Norway has external obligations to honor under the ]. While the need to report separately in some cases is presumably the cause of the UN and ISO designations, the question becomes whether keeping the separate entry in the context of this article is of net benefit to the reader. There should at a minimum be a footnote for "Norway" indicating whether or not the population and/or area numbers include Svalbard or not (a quick scan of the UN site indicates it may in the case of population, but not area). Perhaps the ] listing could be included as a second line in the "Norway" row to solve the difficulty. I created and reverted an example of this - the wording would depend on whether the Norway numbers include Svalbard or not. Having ] included is an unfortunate complication - whatever the case of Svalbard, Jan Mayen really is similar to the examples that TexasWalkerRanger mentions above.

	For those arguing against inclusion of this entry, please do not simply remove it, especially with edit summaries alleging vandalism. Comments such as "making up this nonsense" over a valid content dispute are not helpful, either. - ] 19:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

	: There is no such thing as ]. Svalbard are Jan Mayen are fully parts of Norway and Norway has full sovereignty over them. They have no such connection as the other areas which are listed separately (and the reason for including them seems a bit vague). There is no way ] and ] can ble listed, other than noting whether Norway's numbers include these areas or not. ] 19:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

	::Yes: adding a footnote to Svalbard/Jan Mayen is a good idea, but why should we otherwise have to justify or overcomplicate this because a solitary editor -- and his anonymous IPs -- continues to take issue with it? Neither does this editor have a say in the matter, against the silent consensus during which noone really objected to this entry. As stated upfront in that section, the table/list is based on that provided by the UN ... and ] are discretely listed. Both are special entities under Norwegian sovereignty that are recognised under international treaty, and uniquely governed: while Jan Mayen is governed as part of ] (point taken), Svalbard isn't a Norwegian county. This ''isn't'' comparable to the Shetlands (parts of the UK), but is more comparable to, say, the ] etc. (which is under the jurisdiction of the British crown), ] (]). ] 10:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

	::There are a clutch of IP addys through which this information is continually being removed (still); arguably they belong to the editor in question (sockpuppetry)? Thoughts? Actions? Consequently, I will continue to restore the anonyremovals until compelled otherwise, and others should do the same. ] 18:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

	As I pointed out on his(?) talk page, Dagnabit's approach is not helpful, and in regards to the strictly ISO-related changes approaches vandalism or ]. Even under Dagnabit's own terms the simple removal here is destructive, since the land area and population aren't added into the Norway entry! Repeated removal by an established editor without useful discussion here is essentially edit warring, which Misplaced Pages has methods of dealing with, and I'd certainly support reverting anonymous IP removals on sight.

	But that aside, the question itself is of interest. ] does ''not'' appear to be a "special under Norwegian sovereignty that recognised under international treaty" - there appears to be no treaty related to it at all (it was annexed by Norway in 1930), and it is in effect merely a plain (if distant) Norwegian island that is dragged along merely because (for whatever reason) it was included in the "Svalbard" category. By itself, Jan Mayen ''is'' a "Shetlands" case. As for Svalbard, presumably the ISO/UN has a need for a code for Svalbard in certain reporting circumstances - (travel movements, since it is outside ], and things related to ] obligations), but there is nothing stopping those using the codes from rolling it up into Norway where appropriate (see ). This might be a good case - we aren't reporting a table of "UN reporting classifications", and if integrating the entry into Norway best serves the article, that could be done. Perhaps a single Norway entry with "(''includes ]'')" might be best, or a footnote "includes ]"? As I mentioned, all the other special entries have autonomous populations or other quasi-sovereign status, while Svalbard does not. No offence to Corticopia, but the "not a province" argument seems somewhat moot, since presumably Norway could declare it a "province" (or "duchy" for that matter), as long as it ensured that it was in compliance with its treaty obligations. I have no objection to a separate entry if required, but it isn't completely obvious that is the case here. - ] 20:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

	::I only now noticed that this discussion has continued and that Dagnabbit has finally responded... I want to make clear that I do not feel strongly one way or the other about how Svalbard's status should be represented, David's proposal looks sensible to me, but no matter what is right, I cannot stand the unprofessional tactics used by multiple anonymous accounts to push their view of the matter. That is the kind of behaviour that leads to blocks. I wouldn't be paying any attention to Svalbard never having been there, but quickly learned from Misplaced Pages that by International treaty obligation, anyone may go there without any passport. Now I suspect that is the real information that someone doesn't want publicised, but it is backfiring because now even more people like me have found out. Don't worry, I prefer rather more temperate climates myself, so I don't expect I'll be packing my bags this season. But I got a good laugh from Dagnabbit's laying claim above to Shetlands and Orkney, on behalf of the King of Norway! Do I detect a slightly fanatical mentality here...? ] (]) 17:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

	:::I agree -- I'm unsure, though, why there's been a challenge in retaining this separate listing per the UN listing of territories: it's comprehensive and is used in other articles. While you may not be incorrect regarding the sovereignty of these territories (and I presume they are grouped together due to convenience, even by the ISO, since JM is small and unpopulated), Oberst, I also share CS's exception to the tactics employed throughout in removing it. At its base, removing the entry isn't necessarily agreeable; it may also prompt the question '''is' Svalbard included (despite its northerly location and unique governance)?' in a single entry for Norway?
	:::Anyhow, at this point, I believe the separate listing for should Svalbard/Jan Mayen should remain, but with a note about those entities. ] 17:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

	== Is Europe really a continent? ==
	Depends. Do you consider ] a planet? <nowiki></nowiki> — ] \| ] 13:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

	::For '''that''' see ]. Europe is a continent (former Baltica, formed from 2.5 to 1.8 Ga) centered somewhere between Vitebsk and Moscow, bordered by the Alps, Pyreneans, Scandians, Ural Mtns and Caucasus, and some extra fragments pilfered from other continents: Iberia and Italy from Africa, Scotland and West Norway from Laurentia, England, Ireland and Denmark from the ceased continent Avalonia. Turkey is a border case, a matter of taste - I chose that Turkey is a micro-continent in its own right (since it wandered around in the Tethys Ocean before semi-attaching to Europe and Asia). <span style="background-color: #FFFF80; color: #800000">'']''</span> 12:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

	:And Turkey isn't in Europe --– <font style="border: solid 1.5px #63B8FF; background-color: #D0E7FF">]]]</font> · <sup><small>] · ]</small></sup> 18:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

	::Aehum ... now, thinking practically: where do we discuss the area Turkey? Whether we truthfully regard Turkey as belonging to Europe or Asia or being a separate continent, do we wish to create an article discussing the Turkey microcontinent? Then, we must do so for Iran, Arabia, Kasakhstania, India, Northen China, Southern China and Tibet also! This gives müriads de continentes, and do we wish such an article layout? I propose putting Turkey within the scope of Europe. <span style="background-color: #FFFF80; color: #800000">'']''</span> 13:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

	:Europe is a subcontinent, which along with Asia (with it's own Indian subcontinent) comprises the continent of Eurasia. A "Eurafrasia" isn't a continent--Africa is clearly and cleanly separated from Eurasia by an isthmus. And North and South America are not a single American continent--North America and South America are two continents separated by the isthmus of Panama. ]] 10:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	== Reducing size ==

	"This page is 55 kilobytes long. It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles. See ]."

	One way of achieving this is by deleting (or moving to a separate list) the huge table of inhabitants, area and capital. ] 19:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

	:Removing the table wouldn't serve a useful purpose, as it provides necessary detail regarding the political constituents of Europe; other content can be pruned instead or shunted to subarticles (e.g., language/religion information can be reduced/moved elsewhere without blinking). ] 12:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

	::I would attend to this, but I don't have the power to edit protected pages. Therefore: {{tl\|editprotected}}. I would copy the bulk of the Languages section into the article ]. As well, the link to ] should be removed, as that article is a stub (concerning a field of research less than a 4 decades old), '''and''' the first link in ] goes to ]. Readers interested in language(s) will find what they want to find. ] 02:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

	::Likewise with Religions, except I'm not sure the information therein is exactly duplicated. Further, in the See Also section, I would tinker with the section/list headings to get rid of the subsections in the TOC. ] 03:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

	:::Please go ahead and copy the information to another article; once that is done, insert another editprotected tag and I will remove the duplicate information from this article. ] · <small>]</small> 13:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

	==English spoken fluently by majority of Europe? See Languages section, "Other Languages"==
	I seriously doubt this is true. A majority of Europe may (or may not) speak English well enough to get a point across, but that's not fluency. Either way, a citation is needed. ] 23:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
	:Agreed, that needs to be removed. According to ] the EU has a total of 229,850,000 fluent English speakers, which is less than half of the entire population of the EU (about 494 million), meaning it is not a majority. And if you add European countries outside the EU to that it would probably be an even smaller percentage. --] 14:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
	:Agreed again. It's just clearly incorrect. ] 18:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

	== Asia needs to be taken off of the Europe page ==

	Asia is no part of Europe and needs to be erased. Turkey is a European country. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 17:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

	:What? ]] 10:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	::Do we really need to '''erase''' Asia? I prefer not, if only for the immense amount of work needed. And if succeding to find a suitable tool for erasing it, where should the Asiatics live afterwards? <span style="background-color: #FFFF80; color: #800000">'']''</span> 13:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

	== Macedonia ==
	Please state F.Y.R Macedonia instead of Macedonia<small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]){{#if:{{{2\|}}}\| {{{2}}}\|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
	:The official name of this country is ]. "Macedonia" can be used for short when it's clear that one's referring to the independent nation, not the region. "F.Y.R Macedonia" is a creation following the Greek dispute over the name of this country. Misplaced Pages, unlike the European Union, is not bound to Greek nitpicking, so that country shall not be referred as "F.Y.R Macedonia" on this encyclopedia.--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 22:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

	:You're Greek, aren't you? You seem to be a very vindictive people (especially against Turks, Americans, and MACEDONIANS). Macedonia is commonly used to refer to the country north of yours (if you are indeed Greek), even if the name is the same as one of your northern provinces/regions. ]] 10:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	If you would have taken the time to check out his userpage ], you would have seen that he is actually Portuguese. And I, a Canadian, happen to agree with his statement. I also that the Greeks have a right to be a little miffed at the appropriation of the name that has belonged to them for literally thousands of years - but that's a discussion for a different page. ] 18:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

	:It might not have been obvious despite the (lack of) indentation but if you would have taken the time to read his arguments, you would have seen that Chiss was talking to the original anonymous IP, not to Husond. If you read his comment as targeted towards Husond, they make no sense at all. It does sound plausible that the original anonymous IP was Greek. -- ] 18:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

	::I'm a Geek too. <span style="background-color: #FFFF80; color: #800000">'']''</span> 13:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

	== Crooked English ==

	The caption to the photograph at the bottom says that in that city there are "more Euros traded than in every other city in Europe combined." What on Earth does that mean? I'm no native speaker, but I don't think that's English. And since it is therefore unclear what is meant, it should be deleted unless a source is provided. ] 12:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

	:I can understand what it means. It means that city (London) accounts for over half of the Euro trade in Europe. But 'than in all other European cities combined' would be clearer grammar than 'than in every other city in Europe combined'. I can't speak at all to the accuracy of this claim. ] (]) 15:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

	== Brittany is not one department but five ==

	In the article (Languages & cultures, Celtic languages) it is written that Brittany is a department of France. This is not actually really correct: Brittany is in fact formed of five departments. Four of them form the Bretagne region, the fifth being in the Pays-de-la-Loire region. (But regions in France are little more than administrative units, hence the somewhere strange groups of departments.) <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 04:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->


	== Unbelievable Total Area and Population errors for Turkey ==

	I cannot believe how such egregious errors have made to such a major article of Misplaced Pages. In the table, the area of ] is listed as 24,378 km^2. This is way off, as the area is actually 783,562km^2, making Turkey the 37th largest country in the world, and the largest one in Europe (after Russia, if you choose to count it). It's population is 72,600,000, much more than the 11,000,000 listed. The population density is also wrong: the actual value puts it at 93 /km²

	These huge errors raise the big question regarding the reliability of Misplaced Pages. This article is supposed to be a so-called Core 1.0 article, and yet it contains factual mistakes. It also seems plausible to me that these changes are acts of vandalism, possibly an answer to the debatable question of putting Turkey in Europe or not. I urge the maintainer to fix this problem, and verify the values for the other countries (especially the total numbers). There also needs to be someway to lock some values in some case to prevent such changes in the future. After all, how often can a countries total area change?

	] 21:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

	:Read the notes (and ]): figures in the table about Europe include only those values for the European portion of Turkey (per the fairly common transcontinental border through the Bosporus). Ditto for ] (e.g., ] also in Asia). The only 'mistakes' are those of misinterpretation. Like, how many times does this issue need to be brought up? ] 21:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

	::I would say this issue will be brought up many more times, as it probably is the most absurd choice. In which encyclopedia have you seen a fraction of a country's population being displayed in this way? Turkey is obviously transcontinental, but that doesn't mean you can slice it's population. The transcontinental border may be common, but this choice is definitely not
	::Case in point: there is an article entitled ]. The author of that article asserts that he got the values from the Europe article, and believe it or not, Turkey's population was listed as 22,000 until I changed it. A high school student who is doing research about Europe wouldn't even read the little note that is attached to each country. Displaying both the number for the entire population, and that of the European side seems to be the least that can be done. I am also very curious as to who makes these decisions. Regular users, or people with PhDs in geography?] 21:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

	:::Absurdity? Is it also absurd that these ]al borders are commonly reckoned by geographers to cut across a ], in ]? Hardly. This is clearly spelled out in the introduction, and the content in the table/article simply reflects that; decisions are made consensually and empirically, yet rationally. Speaking of which: of course you can slice an area or population, as these territories ] that allow for detailed analysis. Furthermore, the border between Europe and Asia essentially cuts through ] (at the ]), a city of at least 10 million people. The other article you cite deals with area, and contains an inaccurate, unbelievable value far in excess of that listed in other publications (which you changed somewhat haphazaradly); anyhow, that's part of the nature of the beast regarding content in Misplaced Pages. Listing both totals in the table here (European portion and total) is a possibility, but seems an overcomplication. Simply put, if someone cannot take the time or patience to read the 'little notes' and discussions (lengthy) here and elsewhere regarding this (iterating notions in the intro and elsewhere) while -- per the originator of this discussion above -- commenting at length about errors which don't exist and glazing over other content, then one should wonder ] they are commenting at all and are perhaps undeserving of a response. ] 21:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

	:::: First off, I would like to assert that no comment should be undeserving of a response. If Misplaced Pages is not built on interactions among community members, then I don't know what it stands for. I believe the persons who have the rights and the authority for making changes should listen to such complaints, instead of devaluing them as undeserving of a response. Secondly, the fact that these issues are being brought up so many times suggests that these "consensual, empirical, yet rational" decisions may not be so rational after all. The introduction mentions nothing of transcontinental countries, but announces simply the presence of notes (which is taken for granted anyway). It never says anything about how the populations listed are not that of the respective country, but rather the part that lies on the European continent by UN's definition. As a side note. the only remark I will make regarding the so-called "haphazard" changes I made to ] is that I took the "unbelievable value far in excess of that listed in other publications" from the main article on ]. If that is haphazard, then I do not know what empirical knowledge is. And I wonder what your "other publications" are, since the CIA factbook, among others, seem to agree with that number. Perhaps you would want to correct the values on ] too, as it seems you alone perform all the population and area measurements.
	:::: Instead of stubbornly discussing a matter like this, one should try to provide an answer. If only a territory of a country is included in a table, then that entry should be labeled as such. Turkey does NOT have a population of 24,378, it has a population of 72,600,000. If one needs to be so rational, then that entry shouldn't be that of Turkey, but rather that of ]. The field entitled "Name of region and territory, with flag" should be changed to Trakya, Turkey, and no flag should be included, since regions do not have associated flags in Turkey. Similar changes need to be made to every country that is not considered entirely in Europe. Then perhaps later you would need to answer questions as to why Turkey is not included as a country on an article about Europe, while being a candidate of the European Union.
	:::: The moral of this discussion is that Misplaced Pages can never replace an authentic encyclopedia. Instead of relying on a board of scientists and thinkers, we are left to trust several people making rational decisions, but don't even reveal their qualifications or names. If you solely have the authority and the final say in making these changes, then perhaps you should sign the article with your name(s), and let everybody know that the content reflects the opinions of a selected few, as opposed to the "common sense" of a community. ] 01:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::I will respond briefly and finally since you seem to have intents beyond those stated. Of course Misplaced Pages is built on discussion and consensus: the point is that the issue ''has'' been discussed and answered -- your commentary merely conflates the issue and is rather droning. The introduction and ] thoroughly describes the fairly common border delineating Europe and Asia, and the locator map and ] clearly exhibit this; additional notes expand on this. As well, in that other article, you fall back on the CIA Fact Book, but you incorrectly include(d) all of Turkey's area while glazing over ] -- e.g., Russia's total area is some 17 million km2. You also happened to glaze over the obvious error of Europe's total area, which was listed as seven times that of its actual area. So your edits are undoubtedly haphazard, perhaps myopic, and arguably ] -- at this point, I don't care. I or any editor has the ability to correct the values anywhere as specified, to ensure that they are accurate and consistent with ]; I can gladly do so. And please note that the ] actually includes Turkey in Asia, but is used in this and other continental tables ] of territories here and there while maintaining some semblance of order and organisation -- barring any mindquakes, there's no reason to change that.
	:::::While I have no hesistation to reveal my qualifications, I am neither required nor compelled to do so. You ] and perhaps the error is mine for even having responded in the first place, but there is also a ] ... and at this point I am unconvinced that you are not one. Au revoir. ] 02:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

	== Kalmyk language ==

	I heared Kalmyk language is Turkic. Is it really non-Turkic? Any source?--] 21:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

	:It's "west mongolian", see ], especially ]. (However, don't mention "mongol" so they can hear it!) <span style="background-color: #FFFF80; color: #800000">'']''</span> 13:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

	== Europa ==

	What does '''Europe''' actually mean? <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 00:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

	:'''Europe''' is an Indo-European word which consists from two parts: ide ''Ausā-'' 'rising' (] ''aust'' 'to rise (about sun), to dawn', Latin ''Aurōra'' 'morning blaze, dawn, sunrise', ide ''Ausārā'', Latvian ''ausma, austra'') and ide ''apas'' 'water, river' (Skr. ''apah'' ''water, river'', Latvian ''ape, upe'' 'river').<br>So ''Europe'' means ''Aus(r)ā-apā'' 'sunrise river', this word later was romanized to ''Aurō-apā'' and then greekized to ''Eurōpē''. ''Roberts7 13:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)''

	==Cyprus in Territories and regions==

	Why is Cyprus not in the Territories and regions section of the page; surely it should be under Southern Europe? --DanDesio.] 12:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


	==Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia==

	My feeling is that either all three countries should be included (with footnotes indicating their contentious inclusion) or all three should be excluded. Certain editors have been making edits that exclude Armenia while leaving the other two, without - it seems - making any attempt at discussion or concensus. To stop the possibility of an edit war, a cool-headed discussion is in order. ] 21:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	:Feelings have nothing to to with it: the current content was long-ago arrived at and harks of the common border between Europe and Asia. The other states of the Caucasus are generally reckoned to straddle both Asia and Europe, while Armenia, in the ] (i.e,, in the southern Caucasus), is generally reckoned to be in the latter. The current article content and table ]. Shall we foolishly include all of Russia on one or the other too? Footnotes and details are already included to explain those ambiguities, and the tables are otherwise based on the ]; in this, all the Caucasus are in ]. To stop the possibility of an edit war, I suggest you discuss and garner a consensus changing content. In pushing your point of view, you have likely breached 3RR -- and you will be reverted and reported. ] 21:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	::actually it is you who has reached the 3RR and, since you have so kindly suggested it first, I will of course report you if you exceed that limit. Returning to the subject, the entry already correctly says that ''there are various descriptions of Europe's boundary; in some sources, some territories are not included in Europe, while other sources include them. Numerous geographers consider Azerbaijan's and Armenia's southern border with Iran .... as the boundary between Asia and Europe.'' So the problem appears to be with your rigid holding to that ''scheme for geographic sub regions used by the United Nations''. Just because the United Nations defines something one way doesn’t mean that there are not different views that should be taken account of. I could quote a host of references that will say that Armenia is part of Europe. Your exclusion of Armenia but inclusion of Azerbaijan is just dogmatic. I suggest that the rigid adherence to that UN definition in the Territories and regions section should ended, but it should still be stated that the listing roughly follows that UN definition except when stated otherwise. ] 22:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	:::No, your problem is the willful imbalancing of content. Yes: please provide those reputable sources that include Armenia in Europe. A number of geographers ''do'' reckon the southern border of Azerbaijan and Armenia to form the border between Europe and Asia (which is already states in the article), but (per the article) many more indicate that it is the main crest of ] that forms this border. In addition to sources already listed, including the UN, I can provide a wealth more to corroborate the current article/table content: a number of atlases already do. And the article already accommodates for this ambiguity, indicating that there are variances on the scheme as needed. I see no reason to forego the prior arrangement. I suggest that your willful edits -- ] that "Armenians on Hyeforum have been whining and whinging about it but are too ignorant to know how to edit Misplaced Pages" -- be discarded, since the table is now a hodge-podge meant more to reflect whatever you believe Europe to be. And until you cite sources and garner a consensus to support your edits, your edits will be dealt with as such. ] 22:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	::::Not ''a number of geographers'' but ''numerous geographers'' (according to Misplaced Pages:]) consider ''Azerbaijan's and Armenia's southern border with Iran as the boundary between Asia and Europe because of political and cultural reasons.'' The main crest of the Caucasus mountain range does indeed form a conceptual border between Europe and Asia – and has done since Classical times (note for example the legend of Gog and Magog, banished beyond the edge of the Known World, behind the Caucasus mountains). But it is the countries bordering the southern side of the crest of the Caucasus (i.e. Georgian and Armenia) that are considered to be part of Europe, and not those on the Northern side. ] 22:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	:::::This is your opinion, and you are just being argumentative -- there is nothing new in your commentary, and you have not provided sources as requested. Self-references to Misplaced Pages articles are insufficient, and there is a distinct difference between what 'numerous' geographers indicate and what 'many' or 'most' do. For example, '']'' indicates Armenia "", (e.g., CIA) indicate the same. Not one indicates Armenia is in Europe. So, I defer to my prior comments: your edits, without consensus or much sense, will not stand. ] 23:03, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	::Answers.com gets its answers from Misplaced Pages, everyone knows that! So, remember your self-references to Misplaced Pages articles are insufficient comment. Britanica is a subscription website and the full entry is not free to view so I cannot comment on it. ] 23:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	:::Lets examine that ''scheme for geographic subregions used by the United Nations''. Actually, there is a bit of misrepresentation, because the correct title is ''Standard country or area codes and geographical regions for statistical use'' (see ) To quote from the UN site: ''The geographical regions and groupings of countries and areas included at this site are not comprehensive but only a selection which are or may be used in the compilation of statistics. In order to ensure consistency in statistics and for convenience, each country or area is shown in one region only.'' And ''The assignment of countries or areas to specific groupings is for statistical convenience and does not imply any assumption regarding political or other affiliation of countries or territories by the United Nations''. Thus the UN makes it quite clear that their organisation of the regions are for statistical convenience and not for geographical, cultural, or historical or ethnic reasons. There is no reason for those UN-defined regions to be used as the sole basis for deciding what is and what is not in Europe - '''even the UN says that!''' And Corticopia is breaking his own rules by including Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey in the listing (all defined as being in Western Asia according to that UN categorisation) but excluding Armenia (a country which is entirely surrounded by those 4 countries and which the UN also defines as part of Western Asia). Corticopia seems to have an untenable agenda – the exclusion of Armenia from an entry about Europe, and the inclusion into the entry of certain Turkic countries (including Kazakstan - which by anyone's definition is not part of Europe). ] 23:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	::::You are trying to employ sophistry and misrepresentation to push your point of view. Answers.com iterates a number of reliable sources: excluding the Misplaced Pages mirror, it exhibits Britannica (Concise), the CIA World Fact Book, Houghton Mifflin reference ... all of which indicate Armenia is in Asia. Plus, the UN scheme, that's at least five reliable references that support this position. Despite your verbiage, you have provided NO sources and fall back on polemicism to back your viewpoint. And I am not breaking any 'rules': as discussed before and throughout, ] -- look at the effin map at Europe, which exhibits the commonly reckoned border! The table merely reflects that content: it is modelled on the UN scheme (whcih corroborates the sources above) for organizational purposes, but provides leeway for those territories which may be ambiguous (e.g., Russia, Turkey, Georgia). And any continued commentary from you regarding my motives, vis-à-vis yours which you've clearly stated (pro-Armenian Euro-inclusionist?), will be ignored. Make and substantiate your case, or get lost. ] 23:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

	:::::You have completely ignored everything I wrote about the UN definitions, again revealing how untenable your bigoted arguments are. You are simply misusing those UN definitions. They are definitions intended '''for statistical use only''', and they should not be used in the way you are misusing them. For example, one definition of Armenia is that it is a transcontinental country; a country belonging to more than one continent. However, there is no recognition of that concept in those rigid UN definitions because, as they have stated, for statistical reasons a country cannot be placed into two of their categories. ] 00:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

	::::::Nothing of yours has been ignored. It is you who, despite excessive discussion beforehand/throughout, have completely ignored everything else. Please provide sources to support your position, and consensual reasons as to why your version is an innovation that should usurp another agreeable version which has been in place for months. Otherwise, your contributions will be reverted. And until you produce, I am ending my involvement in this 'discussion.' ] 00:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

	:Corticopia seems to be adept at ignoring rather than answering all the points I have already made! It is late here, so I will not write anything more. Maybe by tomorrow he will be able to explain why he thinks all the countries that surround Armenia should be included in his definition of Europe, but that Armenia itself should be excluded. Maybe he will also have time to look at a map of the Caucasus region. He has already admitted that the spine of the Caucasus Mountains forms a border between Asia and Europe. Is his geography so hazy that he thinks the northern side is in Europe and the southern side is in Asia? For some sources that say that Armenia is part of Europe just read the introductory section of the wikipedia entry on , and then go to references 1, 2, 3, and 4. ] 00:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
	::And I'm unsure what you're adept at, except at gibbering and perhaps ]. Your points have already been dealt with, and no new information has been provided. And yes: it is not just my position that these territories may be delineated so cleanly but one that a number of reliable publications endorse. Your table edits have conflated content inappropriately and, frankly, suck rocks. Again, stop whining and garner consensus for your edits, or count on them being expunged upon your return and thereafter. Good night, Irene. ] 00:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

	:::I've reverted to the pre-Armenia version for now, without prejudice. Given the various nationalistic struggles that can plague these sorts of articles, it is best to keep the existing consensus unless and until a new one develops here on the Talk page. Please avoid ad-hoc arguments - Misplaced Pages has no need to do its own amateur geography work. As I see it, the main points of interest would be the basis for including Armenia in the ], and whether the EU considers Armenia a part of Europe for future membership purposes. Remember, however, that the current table is geographical in nature, and an appropriate "European part" of Armenia would have to be identified, as is the case with Turkey or Azerbaijan.

	:::Incidentally, it might be useful to look at some way of visually emphasizing the "partial" nature of some of the countries in the table (beyond the footnotes), to avoid the ongoing confusion over them. A background color shade of their table cells, italics, the use of some word like "partial", or some other indication might be considered. - ] 01:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

	::::Thanks; I agree with maintaining the status quo. Don't get me wrong: I acknowledged assertions of what may or may not comprise Europe/Asia/Eurasia, but it is important to ] ... which I believe the current table does. Recent edits have been so not that. However, it is also important to note that membership in international organisations (e.g., Council of Europe, EU) is not synonymous with definitions for traditional geographic entities -- i.e., the EU is not Europe, just as NAFTA is not all of North America, etc. Similarly, I believe the Armenia article ''does'' have a pro-European kick to it, despite a number of reliable references which indicate otherwise (e.g., provided above), and should be refactored somewhat. Anyhow ...

	::::However, your suggestions for enhancements seem prudent. Perhaps we can test one or a number of arrangements before implementing them here and elsewhere? ] 13:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

	:::::Corticopia, given that so much of what you wrote is your personal opinion why not file an RFC on the topic to see a broader range of opinions? You kept mentioning consensus, I didn't see any.--<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small> 14:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

	::::::And, of course, this is ''your'' opinion. At least I have cited sources to corroborate my 'opinions'. Anyhow, I would have no real objection to filing an RfC, which I believe would likely yield something similar to the current state: an ], with fringe elements believing this or that and wanting to skew content (e.g., Euro-inclusionists) or what have you. Another possible outcome is indecision and a mish-mash of information, which would not be encyclopedic and serve no useful purpose.
	::::::As well, through mild rigmarole, these tables have more or less prevailed for at least a year, so per ] there already ''is'' a consensus regarding this (e.g., 'silent majority'). I frankly have no stake in including this and that wherever, though many of the editors who have sought to include or exclude certain territories apparently do (and have been demonstrated as such). Eyes wide shut. ] 20:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

	These are not European countries, culture or people, look in any reference book, start with the CIA Fact Book. These countries should be removed from any and all association with Europe. I know many in these lands would rather be associated with Europe than their own region of Asia Minor but this should be a source of accurate information not wishful thinking.
	--] 16:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

	== Muslim population percentage ==

	An anon editor recently changed the Muslim percentage in the Religion section from 5% to 10%. The ] article comes up with 6%, and some quick Googling also seems to indicate that 10% might be high. Certainly whatever the number a source should be provided, so I've added a citation tag, and reverted to the previous 5% for now. Do any of the EU agencies have a central estimate? - ] 19:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

	== European (people) ==
	I note that unlike other geographical areas we do not have a separate article to address the existence of "European" as a people. I accept "European" is not technically a race, or an ethnicity, but in New Zealand "European" is the most common term to describe the ethnicity of our white population.

	I propose two alternate options, and would be interested to see what is preferable:
	a) The creation of "European (people)" to describe the geographic distribution of people with European ancestry, or who identify with European ethnicity.
	b) Inclusion within this article information pertaining to the existence of Europeans in Non-European countries such as South Africa, USA, Australia, New Zealand, etc.; particularly countries such as New Zealand where that population ard still considered European by most forms of official documentation. ] 03:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

	:OK I'm going to create a separate article.] 04:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

	== Religion ==

	I removed the section on religion - an anonymous user changed a section about an increase in religiousness to one about a decrease but the new section seemed equally opinionated and contained weasel words. I think until some proper facts and statistics can be cited - at least so we can agree whether religion is on the rise or in decline - across the whole of Europe, the section shouldn't exist. Depending on timescale, I suspect it's possible to argue for a rise or a fall but this all needs to be put in its proper context. --] <sup>(] • ])</sup> 16:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

	== Why is Czech Republic in Eastern Europe and Austria in the Western one? ==

	Just because of the Cold War? Wake up and smell coffee! <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 11:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

	:The coffee has long since brewed and passed through us: it's due to the ]. ] 12:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

	::: The Czechs like to refer to themselves as being located in Central Europe. Prague is west of Stockholm after all..{{unsigned\|Caligvla}}

	Austrians are germans.

	== Is Europe a continent? Is America two of them? ==

	In the beginning, Europe was a continent. Then we discovered America and it was added to the party. Then the collonists revolted (because of taxes in the North, and because of Napoleon in the South, more or less), became proud of themselves, and each part (North and South) considered being a whole continent to be cool. Then some geographic standards were found to justify it. And then the criterion was applied to Europe so their former sovereigns wouldn't be a continent anymore. Finally it was thaught in schools, and each time we met the discussion arises.

	Come on, "continent" isn't but a bunch of letters. This is a Newspeak problem: If you change the definition you cannot come later expectiong we accept your new definition. It makes sence techtonically and all you want, but you could have picked a new word, or at least provided a new word for the old definition, so dictionnaries wouldn't fool us into thinking that "continente" in European Spanish is the same word as "continent" in American Engish. Now we have an encyclopeadia in "English" and cannot decide what definition to use!

	What are we supposed to do now? If we pick one of the definitions, our articles would result odd for the other half. Maybe we should come up with the new word...? "geographical continent"? "land-mass continent"? "traditional continent"?

	Damn.

	(Then we could speak of poor Pluto, and the great and enormous transcendence calling it a planet or not has in Planetary Physics. I believe old wrong scientific theories have been trashed and new discoveries have been made thanks to the new labelling.)

	Skip the trolling bits in the first paragraph if you're from the American side and not in a good mood today. --] 07:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

	== Information error ==

	This article says that the ] lies just north of Denmark (on the blank map with text all over it). The Denmark Strait does not lie here. It lies between Iceland and Greenland. --] 09:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

	Yep, I spotted that one too. Can someone in the know please fix it?

	== Georgia a part of europe? ==

	I say no, If you use google most maps and even the CIA world factbook do not show georgia, armenia or azerbaijan as a part of europe but a part of Asia. Even this site lists them as a part of asian also, so I think removing that region from europe on your map and put them as a sole part of asia would make more sense.

	:Only those (northern) portions of the Caucasian states are included in this table, which ] the common border between Europe and Asia. Other territories are similarly treated: e.g., Russia, Turkey. ] 02:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

	::I say all of Rome is Europe. That includes Georgia and Northern Africa. --] 09:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
	Culturaly they are Europeans. So yes.

	==Asiatic Russia isn't part Europe==
	Russia is asiatic country, not an Europe. Culturaly and geographicaly they, together with Mongolia and Kazakhstan, mostly belongs to asia.

	:And Europe finishes at the ], ] said. All the discussions in this page about country X being or not part of Europe can only come to one conclussion: there isn't consensus about it. And so should it be reflected in the article. Misplaced Pages is easy... --] 21:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

	== Armenia ==

	I know that Armenia is in Europe. So why is it not in the the table of countries in Europe. I mean if Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey are part of Europe than obviously Armenia is too. Everyone knows the controversy of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey being part of Asia right, but if now they put Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey in the list they should put Armenia in it too. It is like saying all the states of America are states of America accept for Florida. It makes no sense. An anyway I tried to put Armenia on the list and I could not, so if anybody can could they do that so others using this website will not get wrong information. Thank You.

	==No mention of Ummayad Dynasty and Ottoman Empire ?? ==

	Ummayyad Dynasty ruled Spain and Portugal for 750+ years, from 711 to 1492 until the Reconquesta, and Ottomans ruled major areas of Eastern Europe from Greece, Macedonia, Romania..etc all the way to gates of Vienna, for 600+ yrs. The Ummayad Dynasty had made significant advancement in technology during their era in Spain. Shouldn't there be some information about them ?. - alif.

	== Europe is the 5th largest continent not Antartica ==

	If Russia is a part of Europe, then Europe is clearly larger than Antarica. The Antartica page needs to be ajusted too.

	== ] ==

	Someone objected to this being used in this article, even if the flag is meant to represent the whole of Europe, not just the EU, as expressed in the ] article. I did revert it on principle as I thought that it would be a good idea to have some kind of debate on the matter. I understand why someone may find objectionable for it to be used but I also see the reasons for it to be in the page and leave it up to the reader to follow the link and make up his own mind. In the meantime, I will be adding a footnote explaining the matter. Regards, --]<sup>]</sup> 23:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

	== The Eastern Border Of Europe ==

	As have been pointed out in early history the eastern border of Europe has been located at River
	Tanais (Strabo and others), then to River Itil (Volga), extended later to River Emba, then between the Caspian and Urals to River Jaik, (Ural). Then following the Ural mountains to Kara Sea. My grand mother when forced by the Bolsheviks to join in one of the "voluntarely young women brigades" in late summer 1919 from Petrograd to Orenburg to collect harvest there, said that the local inhabitants considered River Jaik (Ural) as the border between Europe and Asia.
	But here is a confusing point. The original Orenburg (a Cossack outpost and fortress) was built
	to the confuence of Rivers Jaik and Or at the place of current town of Orsk. Only later being
	removed to its current place on the confluence of Rivers Ural (Jaik) and Sakmara.
	When the Samara - Ufa - Zlatoust - Tsheljabinsk railway was built in 1880s a statue was placed on the border between Ufa and Orenburg Provinces between Zlatoust and Miass to mark the border between Europe and Asia in Southern Ural Mountains.
	Later, in Soviet era during the thirties when Magnitogorsk was built, the local inhabitants and
	new settlers said the "industrial city in two continents" and today it is claimed to be the only
	settlement in world where you can travel by tram (street car) between Europe and Asia crossing by bridge the River Ural (ex Jaik). There are some other land and memory marks which shows the border in Central Urals but the exactly border has (as far as I know) never been drawn. One claim is that it follows the border between Sverdlovsk Oblast and Perm Krai then the border between Komi Republic and Tjumen Oblast. Other sources say the border follows the highest peaks in Urals. Thus, it seems to be correct to take as border the River Ural over its entire lenght
	from the mouth in Caspian Sea to its springs north of Rysajevo, Lake Beloje, near Gruglaja Sopka Mountain (1016 metre a.s.l.),Peak of Uimash Mountain (874 metre a.s.l.) Nurali Heights, and then eastward to the spings of River Miass following the course of Miass River to Argazinskoje Water Reservoir, then the course of River Atkis to Lake Bolshoi Agardjash, thence over the land to Lake Ufimskoje, following the course of River Ufa to its confluence with its tributary River Visert. Then the course of River Visert to Visertskij Water Reservoir and further north of the upper course of River Visert to its springs. Then over land to the River
	Utka at Sabik following the course of River Utka to the confluence of its main stream River Thusovaja. Then Following River Tshusovaja to its confluence with its tributary River Serebrjakaja at Ust Serebrjakaja. Then following the course toward north of River Serebrjakaja to Podpora Gora on the border between Sverdlovsk Oblast and Perm Krai. Next logical border river is the upper course of River Tura up to the confluence with its tributary River Is just east of settlement Is. North of Is are several named heights of Central Urals just as Sarannaja, Beresovyj Uval, Murzinskij Uval, Tshernaja, Belyj Kamen (763 metre a.s.l.). Then toward north following the upper course of River Kurbja to its confluence with its main stream River Kosva. River Kosva to its confluence with its tributary River Typyl. River Typyl where it reaches the border of Sverdlovsk Oblast and Perm Krai. North of this point the current border line between Sverdlovsk Oblast and Perm Krai which run along the water shed up to Mountain Peak 1024 metre a.s.l. is the natural border between Europe and Asia. Also the border between Komi Republic and Tjumen Oblast is natural, except in the far north where in the the Pojarnyj Ural it should have been followed little more different course following Mountain Peaks of heights 1246, 1343, 1295, 1036, 1338, 1128, 718, 644, 483 abve sea level, Sejabpy Gora (174 metre a.s.l.) and thence along the course of River Ngozavesjuto to Bajdartskaja Bay at Kara Sea.

	JN

	== Fauna ==

	The ] displays a few specimens from Europe. Would it be all right to post some images here to see if they are acceptable to the editors of this article? --] 11:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

	==Ancient Rome==
	''Has had more direct influence on the creation of Europe then teh Greeks. The whole culture of Europe has been shaped on Rome, from the Roman law and property laws, language to christianity, to the Renaissance, to the calendar, to kings naming themselves caesar and later empires naming themselves, "The Holy Roman Empire"...to not add this is denying Europes true roots. I am curious why some think Greeks have had more influence, it was the Romans who shaped the future for Europe...so why is this a problem to add this to the History section....
	(] 23:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC))

	:Rome has had an enormous influence and the article could and should reflect that. The reason I edited it out from a specific sentence was that the sentence described democracy as hailing back to Ancient Greece. Adding Rome in that sentence gives the wrong impression, since the Roman empire was never about democracy. ] 06:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

	Not true, at all...The Roman Republic was as much as a democracy as america has today. I am not talking about the Roman Empire. The Republic lasted from 510 BC-27 AD. They had two consuls elected every year, 300 senators and other administrative jobs such as questor and aediles elected yearly along with praetors and provincial governors and they had 10 Tribunes to rpresent the plebs & the poor. How can you say that isn't a democracy but current day america is?? And please don't say that all the Roman senate was rich...Because so are the American senate and for an average person with little money has no chance of being a senator or president, so delete america if you delete Rome. I mean where do you think we got our political and legislative model from?(] 20:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC))

	:Look, I suggest you relax a bit and acquaint yourself with ]. Your feelings about America are completely irrelevant here. Nobody else has even mentioned it, yet you go on ranting about it. Your name alone makes it very clear that you're hardly approching this subject from a neutral point of view. And regardless of how democratic republican Rome was (and that wasn't very much), we're now talking about what Europe inherited and that wasn't democracy from Rome. By the time Rome came to dominate and influence Europe, it had become a dictatorship and that is a heritance we can see in the middle ages in many countries. That the words Emperor, Kaiser and Czar all come from Latin while the very word democracy comes from Greek already tells quite a bit about which political system was inherited from which culture. ] 21:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

	And what did I say that was agressive?? Your the one yelling at me for ranting don't be a hypocrite. And so what about my name, and don't threaten me I am only giving my views as you are you are the one attacking me about my name and so on. Besides your article is on the history of Europe not Democracy of Europe..Just becasue you don't agree with me don't threaten me, I am talking to you in a mature way explaining my case....


	''I think there is way to much negative thinking currently in America over Ancient Rome. Their are few other times in the history of Western Democracy where a new man or a pleb could rise to the top of the social heirarchy and become a consul or great general. Look Pompey, who came from a plebian family became famous and a consul several times....How is this not a democracy??

	This didn't happen in Feudal Europe or in Ancient Greece except Athens. And besides Americans have this glamorous view of Ancient Greece as this perfect golden age. Athens was the only democracy in Greece. Sparta, the Pelopensian, Central Greece were all ruled by Kings or Tyrants(And if you think by watching '300' that Sparta was a free country, than you are mistaken, what a horrible depiction of Persians). Almost all Greek city-states had a tyrant or king and even Athenian democracy was short-lived. And I hope you don't think Alexanders Macedonian Empire was a democracy? Syracuse one of the greatest city-states of Greece was always dominated by tyrants and violent ones too....

	All other cultures have had a great love and fascination and respect for Rome, even our Forefathers. But not Modern day Americans, who trash and demonize it(and I know why but I won't get into that now). I don't understand why in America, they are so many negatives toward Ancient Rome when America is the closest thing to Rome since the West was born. (] 21:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC))''

	:Nobody has threated you one bit, and I didn't "attack" you about your name. Surely you understand that a person taking the name of a famous ancient Roman will not be considered neutral when discussing ancient Rome. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with it. I did point out that all your talk about America is completely irrelevant, we're discussing the influence of Ancient Rome on Europe on this page, not America. ] 21:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

	Yes you did threaten me, when I did nothing wrong. But nowadays if someone doesn't agree with you they throw a temper tantrum, so whatever, Besides you say my name is Bias, well so is your user page, where you clearly show your Prot. Germanic/Celtivc roots(not that their is anything wrong with that, but don't accuse me of bias, because I will use it against you.)

	'''besides your article has nothing to do with Democracy it is clearly a History of Europe''' and Rome deserves more mention than its fall....Roman Republic is where all modern day democracy have branched from even Polybius says that is why Rome grew to such a great power was its style of gov't and representation of the people. Even Athens doesn't have the type of democracy we have today. It was a "Direct Democracy" and only Swiss have that form, Most modern day democracy have senates and other instituitons the Romans created. So do you deny that Ancient Greece except Athens was not run by Kings? Becasue I would like to know when. And If you are not biased against Rome than why are you so against me putting the Republic which is more of democracy than seen in Greece up? Why hide that for all Americans to see? Why hide the truth? Today history is about opinions and not facts(] 21:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC))

	:How is being Northern European biased towards ancient Greece? Well, never mind. I fear you're at the wrong place. This is an encyclopedia, not one of the millions of discussion boards. If you want to go on about how great Rome was, find a place to do so. ] 21:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

	DUDE put a citation by Ancient Greece too...What is your problem, I am reporting you.

	:I did put a source for it. Please go on reporting me. I'm not the one who has vandalised a page, made personal attacks, racist attacks against other religions and other countries etc. And tell me, when have I ever written a word that's pro-germanic? When was I ethnocentric? All I've done here is to point out that the roots of European democracy lies in Ancient Greece, rather uncontroversial. For that, you have gone to my talkpage to check my background so you could make racist attacks against me. You checked my religion so you could attack it as well. In a number of posts, you have attacked America and Americans for no apparent reason whatsoever. Calm down and start acting like a responsible contributor instead. ] 22:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

	You calm down. '''And answer me this..."Your article is not on Democracy in Europe, but on the History of Europe, so what is your problem'''?" So your argument is null and void. Answer me that or quit vandalising the page. The Romans even if you hate them and our culture had a huge impact to the history of Europe and only someone who hates us so much or is racist against us would deny that. Ask all European historians and they will tell you the truth, I have done nothing wrong, you are acting like a spoiled child. ''' How is adding factual information and I added references too, vandalism?? The page was lacking depth and I added that.''' Racist attacks...be more specific. I never attacked America, you are so sensitive what is wrong with you. You lash out and make accusations, quit being so insecure, if you don't know the facts, screaming and acting like a child won't help.''' I have presented facts, dates and references, what have you offered except your ethnocentric opinion and angry'''. Tried to be more proff. Thanks and How is comparing America to Rome an insult, except to people who hate Roman culture, so you are the one going out of your way to insult me.(] 22:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC))

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Citation to add for Early history

For "The first recorded usage of Eurṓpē as a geographic term is in the Homeric Hymn to Delian Apollo:"

https://en.wikipedia.org/Homeric_Hymns has the date of publication as 522 BCE, "Burkert 1979, p. 61; Graziosi 2002, p. 206; Nagy 2011, pp. 286–287."

Burkert, Walter (1979). "Kynaithos, Polycrates, and the Homeric Hymn to Apollo". In Bowersock, Glen W.; Burkert, Walter; Putnam, Michael C. J. (eds.). Arktouros: Hellenic Studies Presented to Bernard M. W. Knox on the Occasion of his 65th Birthday. Berlin: de Gruyter. pp. 53–62. ISBN 9783110077988.

Graziosi, Barbara (2002). Inventing Homer: The Early Reception of Epic. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521809665.

Nagy, Gregory (2011). "Reception of the Homeric Hymns". In Faulkner, Andrew (ed.). The Homeric Hymns: Interpretative Essays. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 280–333. ISBN 9780199589036. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winspiff (talk • contribs) 23:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Europe page

Wiki, if you're mentioning the Caucasian countries Georgia and Azerbaijan, why not mentioned the 3 rd republic "Armenia". Sarocard (talk) 02:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Armenia is mentioned at a couple of points in the article. CMD (talk) 04:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Armenia is only "culturally" European (i.e. they think they are European). The country is located entirely south of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, it is geographically a part of Asia. 120.16.170.140 (talk) 05:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Please read the FAQ above. While Armenia is indeed geographically in West Asia, there are numerous political and geopolitical definitions which place Armenia (and also Cyprus) within a "wider Europe". There are also a few geographical definitions which place the South Caucasus region either entirely or partially within Europe. It depends on which definition is used, but generally speaking, Misplaced Pages uses the most expansive definitions in inclusion criteria's for Asia and Europe. That is why Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are mentioned in both Asia and Europe related articles and lists, with notes accompanying them to clarify their physical geography, versus their geopolitical and cultural adherence to either/both continents. This impartial stance has been the norm here for about a decade. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 18:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Basically, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are a bunch of Asian countries wanna be seen as European countries. If we use the Encyclopædia Britannica's definition of Europe, even the North Caucasus is a part of Asia. Hence, according to the British sources, the area of Europe is only approx. 10 million square kilometres.

End of this debate. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:F0F5:3D10:42B7:F29D (talk) 14:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Area of Europe

What is the exact area of Europe? According to this article, it is 10,186,000 sq. km, but according to the Collins World Atlas in my local library, it is 9,908,599 sq. km (they counted to the single digits!). Why are there a big difference between these sources? 120.16.170.140 (talk) 05:50, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Area will differ based on different definitions of Europe. CMD (talk) 08:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Because the Collins World Atlas is published by the British. They have included the North Caucasus as a part of Asia. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:F0F5:3D10:42B7:F29D (talk) 14:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Armenia again

I see that I should have noted that the consensus is firmly established to include Armenia in the article for reasons given in a note. But therein lies the problem. The note reads "Armenia can be considered part of Eastern Europe or West Asia; it has strong historical and sociopolitical connections with Europe. The population and area figures include the entire state, respectively." This is just as much a justification for including Australia and Canada in the article, not making it clear at all why they're different. Since they aren't, this makes the justification look specious and ad hoc as though it's really being given only for the purpose of placating some group of people. This isn't a great impression for a Misplaced Pages article to give. At the moment, I'm not arguing one way or the about Armenia's inclusion but that the way it's been included looks almost like an acknowledgement that it doesn't really belong. Largoplazo (talk) 18:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

As a standalone it might give that impression, but it comes after the much earlier Definition section which should provide a reader a reasonably clear understanding of the issue of Europe's 'borders'. Would an internal link, eg. "can be considered", help? CMD (talk) 06:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, most countries outside Europe classify the countries of the South Caucasus region as Asian countries instead of European countries. The only one which classify these countries as European countries are themselves.

The same can be said of Cypus and Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:F0F5:3D10:42B7:F29D (talk) 14:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Is the Turkish peninsula west of Istanbul considered Europe?

Europe orthographic Caucasus Urals boundary (with borders): https://en.wikipedia.org/Europe#/media/File:Europe_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary_(with_borders).svg

Just asking, thanks. Teastain (talk) 19:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is considered Europe (as is also clear from the opening lines of the Turkey article.) Arnoutf (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, East Thrace is a part of Europe, but it is a geographical region, not a peninsula. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 07:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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