Misplaced Pages

Talk:Alexithymia: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 16:03, 10 August 2007 editZeraeph (talk | contribs)5,776 edits →State vs' trait: lots of comments← Previous edit Latest revision as of 02:12, 2 April 2024 edit undoMissLunaRose12 (talk | contribs)30 edits →Infobox image: ReplyTag: Reply 
(158 intermediate revisions by 48 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header}}
{{WikiProject Psychology|class=Start|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject banner shell |class=C|1=
==Opening==
{{WikiProject Medicine|importance=Low}}
Word disorder removed as it is not one. Sifneos reference added.{{unsigned|Supernaut76 }}
{{WikiProject Psychology|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Autism }}
{{WikiProject Disability}}
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config | algo = old(30d) | archive = Talk:Alexithymia/Archive %(counter)d | counter = 1 | maxarchivesize = 150K | archiveheader = {{Automatic archive navigator}} | minthreadstoarchive = 1 | minthreadsleft = 3 }}


{{Archive box}}
:I don't know much about this topic, but maybe someone could put in an explanation as to how this differs from Asperger's and/or autism. Thanks.] 17:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
<br />


== Etymology ==


Is there any evidence for the alternative etymology listed on this page? The word αλέξω being part of the etymology doesn't seem to make much sense here. ] (]) 00:41, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
The way Alexithymia has been described to me (I'm a SSU Graduate with a BA in psych) is that people with the condition aren't aware of their vareying emotions. They have difficulties "feeling" their emototions, or understanding their feelings. Unlike autism where they can't express or put into words what they are feeling, people with this disorder don't realize what they are feeling. {{unsigned|12.155.182.227}}


==Alexithymia in Holocaust survivors==
:I disagree. It is now recognised that there is overlap between alexithymia and autism spectrum disorders, as Fitzgerald & Bellgrove (2006) point out. Both populations have great difficulty understanding and expressing their emotions. Hill & Berthoz (2006) in response to Fitzgerald & Bellgrove (2006), stated "We agree with Fitzgerald & Bellgrove (2006) that here is some form of overlap between alexithymia and ASDs". In addition, Moriguchi et al. (2006) found impaired Theory of Mind skill in people with alexithymia, there is evidence for neuroanatomical evidence of a shred aetiology (see Fitzgerald & Bellgrove (2006) and Hill & Berthoz (2006) for further similarities). The branched description of the same condition appears to have occurred because some researchers looked at alexithymia from an interpersonal and emotional point of view, its due mother not hugging you enough etc. I have amended the page to reflect recent findings. ] 19:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Condition was common but is not mentioned in the article on Misplaced Pages. During 10 year period 1991-2001 I evaluated Holocaust survivors for German government for Wiedergutmachung as restitution for war crimes, based on the concept of Vergangengheitsbewältigung. There are references to the connection that I claim, though I do not have them with me now, other than my diagnostic use of it in a brief article about my clinical work, that I can provide. Also, I suggest that you contact some established psychiatrist for further information.
I’m a retired MD neurologist, ph.d. neuroscientist, board certified in psychiatry and neurology, also with master’s degree in psychology. ] 1 October 2022


:If you can supply some bibliographical references, other editors can assess whether they meet Misplaced Pages standards for ], and perhaps incorporate them into the article. ] (]) 20:27, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
::Diamonddave, Based on the available research, I agree with your response to Amber388. One point I wish to bring to your attention is the doubt now cast on the idea that alexithymic individuals have mind-blindness. A new fMRI study largely debunks this proposition. Also, although it looks like CeilingCrash (self-proclaimed Aspie, see his entries below) may be trying to disprove the whole role of alexithymia in AS, he may nevertheless have a point that Aspies may not have lack-of-ToM. The fMRI study throws the whole lack-of-ToM-in-alexithymia (and in AS) into serious doubt. The findings suggest that alexithymia may be more responsible for the AS-behaviour we have been calling mind-blindness. Just thought you might want to take a look over this study and see if the main article needs adjusting accordingly. PS. you've done a great job constructing the article so far. ] 07:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


:: A quick google search turns up: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9018679/ "Alexithymia in Holocaust survivors with and without PTSD" and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2597865/ "Alexithymia, masked depression and loss in a Holocaust survivor" . Also possibly relevant is the much more recent: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3402/ejpt.v5.23870 "Traumatic experiences, alexithymia, and posttraumatic symptomatology: a cross-sectional population-based study in Germany" . <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Issue is controversial wrt Asperger's ==


== Infobox image ==
It is now debated whether ToM applies to Asperger's (personally I would go so far to say it has fallen out of favor amidst researchers.) I'm adding WP:RS's to light up this emerging controversy ] 19:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
(added by ceilingcrash) It seems it would be best to remove mention of Asperger's altogether, and let the article focus on its topic : Alexithymia.] 19:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


]
:CeilingCrash, '''This page is not about ToM in AS'''. Its about alexithymia. Alex and ToM involve substantially different and somewhat independent neural networks. So firstly we must leave 'ToM in AS' out of the discussion (thats something to be debated on the AS pages). Secondly, does the research on alexithymia in ASD's specifically include Asperger's individuals? Yes it does. I've seen two studies now (one of which fMRI study I already gave you the URL for on the "AS and Interpersonal Relations page" discussion area) which included Asperger subjects in the research.
I'm proposing to remove the infobox image (from Jane Austen's '']''), added by ] in of 5 June, which seems to me quite wrong. In the novel, Emma is a self-confident young woman who tries to act as a matchmaker within her social circle, but has no desire to marry herself, and is in what she thinks of as a platonic friendship with Mr Knightley. At the end of the book, she realises she's in love with him - at which point he proposes to her. So she's certainly emotionally confused, but the quote about "She could really say nothing" has far more to do with her being overwhelmed by her emotions, rather than any sort of "emotional blindness". I appreciate that it's not easy to illustrate an abstract psychological state, but I think this image is downright misleading. Personally, I don't see what was wrong with the image that used to be in the infobox (right; removed by ] 20 Dec 2022), that was expressly created to illustrate alexithymia. Any further comments before I'm ]? ] (]) 11:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


:Be ] :-) <span style="color:#CD0000">] ★ (])</span> 15:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
:See this one, for example, which explores the relationships between ToM, alexithymia, empathy, brain mechanisms, and ASD's: http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:HmnuhQtXSusJ:web.mit.edu/autism/Bird%2520-%2520Alexithymia%2520in%2520ASD.pdf+alexithymia+empathy&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=17 In this study we read: "All participants in the ASD group had previously received a diagnosis of autism or Asperger’s Syndrome from an independent clinician according to standard criteria (DSM-IV, APA 1994)" ] 05:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
::No further comments, so I've switched the two images. ] (]) 15:20, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

:Must have missed the ping on this one. I described this drawing of a person in silhouette holding some worms (?) as "puzzling" when I removed it last year, and would stand by that. It seems about as useful as something like ] (a head outline with question marks), for the general idea of a human being puzzled in their brain.
It is also very relevant to point out that alexithymia is found in co-morbidity with other disorders, and as ASD's have the highest prevalence (85%) of alexithymia of any disorder (that I am aware of) then it belongs in the entry as an example. ] 05:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
:Maybe less useful, for looking more like a person wondering whether to go with their head or their heart on the issue of whatever they're holding in their hand.

:I'd agree with your view on the Emma illustration. Perhaps this article just can't be usefully illustrated from what Commons can offer. ] (]) 18:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
== Theory-of-Mind in Asperger Syndrome ==
::I agree the image isn't immediately "readable" (in that it's not clear what the figure is holding); and, insofar as it is readable (it pretty obviously suggests some sort of confusion or mismatch between intellectual and emotional intelligence), it doesn't really enlighten the reader a great deal specifically on alexithymia. But in its favour is that fact that it was created by an autistic artist (], who appears not to have been active on Wiki since 2022) to reflect her own perception or experience of alexithymia, which has to count for something. My own view – and I know not all editors agree – is that most articles are improved by having some sort of lead image, even if it is "eye candy", and only peripherally relevant to the topic. This article is about a psychological state, which is never going to be easy to illustrate: I think this image is far from perfect, but still quite a lot better than nothing. ] (]) 14:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

:::I'm with you on the eye candy angle, a lot of my gnoming at Misplaced Pages is adding even very mildly representative images to articles. My concern on this one is that the diagram may be slightly ''worse'' than nothing by strongly evoking the conscious "do I use my head or follow my heart?" decision metaphor, which is (at least as I'm reading it) the opposite of alexithymia.
CeilingCrash. Your recent entry definitely does ''not'' belong on a page about alexithymia. It belongs on pages about AS. So I deleted it.
:::Maybe a more explanatory caption would help. ] (]) 15:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

::::I'm not sure a better caption would really improve things (especially in the absence of ] to guide us): I feel the message of the image is just one of emotional confusion rather than anything more specific. However, I don't feel strongly on the matter, so I suggest we leave things for a few days for further input, and then if there's nothing and you want to remove the image, I'll have no objection. ] (]) 13:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Here's what you wrote: '''Other research reports just the contrary, that people with Asperger's do not lack 'Theory of Mind''''- '''nor a tendency toward Alexithymia.'''
:::::I am here for a few days. The person in the image is holding a tangle toy, which is a type of fidget tool that some neurodivergent people use. ] (]) 02:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Whilst reference to ToM in AS does not belong here, if you do have a reference to there being '''"no tendency toward alexithymia "''' then that is relevant. If you do have such information then please quote the source and phrasing here for us to look at. I did a brief search for the reference you gave above and found absolutely nothing (online) in it mentioning alexithymia. Also, the study was done in 1992 a full fifteen years ago, and well before the study by E. Hill, S. Berthoz, & U. Frith which found 85% of ASD's are alexithymic ] and before the Geoffrey Bird (et al) 2006 study Obviously any credible, up-to-date offering is of interest. ] 05:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

== Huh? ==

Soulgany, I cannot follow your remarks.

To recap, a previous version of this article mentioned Asperger's and also that 85% of ASD's are alexithymic. I countered that the 85% figure has been refuted by other research and suggested the Alex. article simply focus on Alex and omit the murky connection to ASD and Asperger's. Somebody else did just that and I'm happy. ] 04:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

::Your "POV" that the 85% figure has been "refuted" needs proof, CeilingCrash. Its that Simple. If you can't provide the proof then you are just offering a predictable POV. Its no use giving some fuzzy, unsupported study from 15 years ago as you have done above. That 1992 study does not even refer to the 85% figure, let alone "refute it". Modern (that is recent) fMRI studies need a bit more than CeilingCrash's POV, or some unverified comment from years ago to refute them. (Huh indeed ;-) ] 09:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

== Relational Section not good ==
Soulgany, you are pushing POV here to support your pet interest : Autism/Alex impacts couple relationships. The sources you provide for this section are poor, misinterpreted or both.
Not every use of the Alex. Scale implies alexithymia, as the article titles indicate. I'll be back later with specifics; but material shd be added when it improves the article in and of itself. m] 08:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

:CeilingCrash. The sources are extremely good, and the studies are of extremely high quality and reliable. This is not POV, as citations are provided and checked for reliability. Also, each study cited is not joined with other studies in the same section to form OR. Each study reference stands on its own.

:Also, the relational section you dislike doesn't even mention "autism" whatsoever. So you are imagining things that arent even mentioned. ] 09:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

: PS. Please do come back with specifics, and please back your claims this time. I look forward to discussing it ] 10:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

::Never mind that, you can't keep posting links to your own blogs! C'mon, you know better than that! --] 11:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Zeraeph. Go ahead and delete the blogs if you wish. But stop deleting the other two outside links to the Alexithymia FAQ and Alexithymia Info. These last two are written by a Sam Brown who has a PHD in cognitive-neuroscience and who technically knows the subject of alexithymia. Please discriminate so that your deleting does not look like vandalism. ] 12:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

:Can you please show evidence that this guy has a relevant PHD? This link at the bottom of the page (which seems to be on some kind of freeserver/subdomain) worries me in terms of validity. Also, as they cross link each other, and are by the same person, there is no justification for posting both. Choose one and delete the other while we sort it out please. --] 17:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

:: To be exact- Sam Brown has a PhD in the philosophy of affective neuroscience. He has an MA in Philosophy and an MPhil in Cognitive Science from the University of Dundee. You can check these details with him by email, or you can contact the University of Dundee to confirm if you wish, and can publish his whole resume' next to the link. He also is a manager of the Alexithymia Chatsite under the username of "Hal".

:: The server Sam uses have corrupted one of his links, which now lead to a server default-page of unrelated links. This fault will be removed or corrected in time. Also, the links ''between'' the two pages (Info & FAQ) are not functioning and so both links are needed for access. These FAQ pages are widely recognized as the best overall online intro to alexithymia, and according to Sam have also been endorsed "by the professional body of alexithymia experts". As I say, get in touch either with him or the University of Dundee to confirm. ] 22:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Soulgany, no, the link was not corrupted, but was transcribed incorrectly by Zereaph.

:::I, too, have been tracking down all the credits for Sam Brown and note that he blogs on the specific subject of neuroscience. ] 23:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

::::No, the link is at the bottom of one of the pages and is totally correct, anyway, if he isn't formally published and peer reviewed and is just blogging he is not in accord with ] and can go altogether. --] 05:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Zeraeph. Please discuss properly here before removing links. The links were not blogs belonging to some blogger service. They are very high quality pages about alexithymia by a person with relevant qualifications. If you mean they were blogs in some technical sense then maybe all websites are blogs. But you have been made aware that the author is highly qualified, and you have been told where to check his qualifications if you have doubts.

::: Alternatively, if you persist, be there is absolutely nothing to stop me quoting all the relevant quotes from those FAQ and Info pages (which is most of it) and placing them here on the Misplaced Pages entry! Much of that material can be lifted and mentioned here with citations. I'll be happy to oblige. ] 06:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)



::: EG. some material for consideration:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Dictionary definitions

A succinct and accurate definition can be found in the American Psychiatric Glossary. The entry was written by John C. Nemiah, one of the psychiatrists responsible for coining the term, who was acting as a consulting editor.

American Psychiatric Glossary, 7th edition, p.6.

Alexithymia A disturbance in affective and cognitive functioning that overlaps diagnostic entries but is common in psychosomatic disorders, addictive disorders, and post-traumatic stress disorder. The chief manifestations are difficulty in describing or recognising one's own emotions, a limited fantasy life, and general constriction in the affective life.

J. C. Nemiah, R. J. Campbell (ed.), 1994.

A different entry appears in an earlier Psychiatric reference work, also edited by the psychoanalyst R. J. Campbell.

Psychiatric dictionary, 1989, p.28.

Alexithymia Difficulty in describing or recognizing one's emotions; suggested by P. Sifneos to describe those patients who define emotions only in terms of somatic sensations or of behavioral reactions rather than relating them to accompanying thoughts. "They … give the impression that they do not understand the meaning of the word 'feeling'." (Short-term Psychotherapy and Emotional Crisis, 1972). Their emotional functioning in general appears constricted and their phantasy life is limited and lackluster.

Some believe alexithymia reflects an absence of the ego functions that subserve affect and phantasy, but most writers explain it as due to primitive ego defenses that hide and distort the conscious experience of affect and phantasy.

R. J. Campbell, 1989.


By contrast, the following definition is written specifically with the neuropsychological audience in mind:

The Blackwell Dictionary of Neuropsychology, 1996.

alexithymia A disruption of both affective and cognitive processes, alexithymia is a collection of traits rather than a psychiatric syndrome. Alexithymics are incapable of expressing emotions in the sense that, while the emotion may be experienced, the emotion cannot be associated with a mental representation and so formally expressed. Alexithymia has classically been described in patients with psychosomatic disorders, but also in alcoholics, drug addicts, and patients with traumatic stress disorders.

Alexithymia has been reported in commisurotomy patients, and following right hemisphere stroke. These may be regarded as primary alexithymias, while secondary alexithymias may be associated more closely with psychogenic processes of denial and repression. It has also been suggested that alexithymia reflects a variation in cerebral organisation, and that this may be demonstrated by LEMs ; others have proposed that alexithymia results from a functional disconnection between the cerebral hemispheres.

The Blackwell Dictionary of Neuropsychology, p.43-4.

The secondary alexithymia mentioned in the entry above corresponds to Sifneos's version of the primary/secondary distinction, referring to neurogenic/psychogenic causes respectively; it does not correspond to the original distinction introduced by Freyberger, between alexithymia as a persistent trait (primary) and alexithymia as a transient state of suppressed emotionality in reaction to immediate psychological trauma (secondary). Krystal represents both versions in the definition below.

Psychoanalytic Terms and Concepts, 1990, p.11.

Alexithymia: A cognitive style and affective disturbance commonly found in patients suffering from psychosomatic, addictive, or post-traumatic conditions. The alexithymic state is characterized by poorly differentiated and poorly verbalized affects that do not serve the signal function adequately (do not communicate effectively). Psychosomatic patients, for instance, often ignore psychic and somatic danger signals, presenting a stoical appearance, sometimes with a stiff posture and wooden facies. Addictive patients particularly fear the somatic components of affects and try to block them, especially by chemical means. Post-traumatic patients are often unable to experience pleasure (a condition known as anhedonia).

Individuals suffering from alexithymia think in an operative way and may appear to be superadjusted to reality. In psychotherapy, however, a cognitive disturbance becomes apparent as the patients tends to recount trivial, chonologically ordered actions, reactions, and events of daily life with monotonous detail. In general, these individuals lack imagination, intuition, empathy, and drive-fulfillment fantasy, especially in relation to objects. Instead, they seem oriented toward things and even treat themselves as robots. These problems seriously limit their responsiveness to psychoanalytic psychotherapy; psychosomatic illness or substance abuse is frequently exacerbated should these individuals enter psychotherapy.

The term was introduced by Sifneos in 1967 and further clarified and elaborated by Nemiah and Sifneos in 1970. In the large body of literature that treats the concept, some authors attribute the manifestations to primary neuroanatomical deficits, while others point to various psychological problems, primary and secondary. McDougall and others see the phenomena from a psychoanalytic point of view as a group of developmental defenses closely allied with denial and splitting. A similar group of defenses, described in 1963 by Marty and his co-workers in France, was named la pensée opératoire.

Henry Krystal, 1990.

Online Definitions

The definitions to be found on internet dictionaries are admirably accurate, perhaps because they are simply trying to define the word without pushing a particular theory.

The Autism.org Glossary

Alexithymia: A disruption in both affective and cognitive processes. It is not treated as a 'true' psychiatric syndrome but rather as a general charactersation of a number of traits which are often seen together in a variety of disorders including those with psychosomatic origins and some addictions and drug-dependency disorders. Typically the alexithymic person has relatively undifferentiated emotions and thinking tends to dwell excessively on the mundane.

http://access.autistics.org/resources/glossary/main.html

Iverson Software Dictionary of Terms & Terminology of Psychology

Alexithymia - A disturbance in affective and cognitive function that overlaps diagnostic entities but is common is psychosomatic disorders, addictive disorders, and post traumatic stress disorder. The chief manifestations are difficulty in describing or recognizing one�s own emotions, a limited fantasy life, and general constriction in the affective life.

http://www.iversonsoftware.com/reference/psychology/a/alexithymia.htm

Concise Medical Dictionary

alexithymia n. a lack of psychological understanding of one's own emotions and moods. It is considered by some psychiatrists to be a way in which people develop psychosomatic symptoms.

http://www.xrefer.com/entry/121410

mentalhealthandillness.com

Alexithymia is an inability to recognize, experience and describe feelings. Anhedonia is an inability to recognize, experience and describe pleasurable feelings. There may be degrees of both alexithymia and anhedonia.

Since the capacity to feel emotions is a critical component of empathy, alexithymia can result in a decline in the capacity for empathy. A number of conditions can cause alexithymia including autism, Asperger's Syndrome, development failures, PTSD and injuries from encephalopathies.

http://www.mentalhealthandillness.com/neuralnetwork.html

Alleydog.com

Sifneos (1972) coined the term alexithymia to designate a group of cognitive and affective characteristics typical of many patients with psychosomatic illnesses. It is thought to be a personality trait that is characterized by a decreased ability to communicate feelings, a decreased ability to identify feelings, a cognitive tendency toward detail and external operations or events, and a paucity of imaginative thought, dream recall, or fantasy (Taylor, 1994).

http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.cfm?term=Alexithymia
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

What a gold-mine! ] 06:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

:None of the above has a single thing to do with the notability of the two links, to self published, not peer reviewed, sites, run by the same person that you keep posting. Will you please stop trying to use Misplaced Pages to promote the personal websites of your aquaintances. --] 07:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

::Zeraeph. Lets just correct your rather characteristic attempts at innuendos before I start editing. Firstly, I am not trying to "promote" any person or website. I'm merely trying to provide good information for Misplaced Pages readers, and the information on those sites is second to none. Secondly, I am not a personal acquaintance of Sam Brown. I have never met him, and have had only impersonal exchanges with him on a discussion forum. I have not exchanged even impersonally with him for a long time. ] 08:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Please read ] and ] on what constitutes "good information". I think you will find that self published work without peeer review does not hack it, nor should it. But even if it DID, two links to the same person's websites is unacceptable and could be considered linkSPAM. --] 04:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Admittedly one or two of the links are broken. So if you want to delete it on a technical point go ahead and do so. And thanks at least for discussing it (is good emotional ettiquette, even if you are right). ] 04:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
== Comorbidity ==
We cannot use the word 'comorbidity', as that applies to co-existing diseases or disorders. Alexithymia is neither. ] 20:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

:Well spotted!! Of course we can't. --] 23:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

:Well, its hardly an important point, as comorbidity can be applied to the co-presence of two "conditions", and alexithymia can be (and often is) described as a condition, although it is simultaneously a 'trait'. <ref>comorbidity </ref> In other words comorbidity need not apply to disorders only.

:But I note that in line with your concern about this term, Greame Taylor (The world's leading authority on alexithymia) does not use the term ''comorbidity'' in his main book on alexithymia. So I've borrowed his phrase of 'Alexithymia in medical and psychiatric illness' from his book Disorders of Affect Regulation and used this as the subtitle in place of comorbidity. ] 07:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

PS. As an afterthought I suppose dropping 'comorbidity' ensures that people don't get the wrong idea that alexithymia is an extra disorder being tacked onto Asperger's. Thats a valid concern. ] 08:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

== State vs' trait ==

CeilingCrash, I removed the following, unsourced paragraph by you: "Alexithymia is not a fixed personality trait, it has been shown to be state-dependent. Objections to its validity have been raised, in particular that it has been applied to clinical populations without correcting for the prevalence of depression in those populations. One study reported that, once this correcting was made, individuals classified as alexithymic by the TOR-20 scale were actually more emotionally expressive than the control - precisely the reverse intended purpose of the test."

You have made several errors here. Firstly your comment is totally unsourced. Secondly it is completely incorrect to state that alexithymia is not a fixed personality trait, when in fact ''most'' studies find that it is. There are rarer studies which claim that alexithymia can be "state dependent" and that it disappears after the evoking stressful situation has changed... but if you want to refer to these studies you need to cite them accurately and provide references. Thirdly, there is no such thing as a "TOR-20", I assume you meant the TAS-20??

I have nothing against providing a mention of studies finding examples state-dependent alexithymia, but it is a huge error to offer your unverifiable POV that alexithymia doesn't constitute a fixed personality trait. ] 10:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:Well as you know sources for the statement CC made, why didn't you just put the citations in instead of suppressing the paradigm presented altogether? That really IS conscious POV editing on your part, and not remotely acceptable. --] 10:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

: No, I don't know ''his'' sources at all. ] 11:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:: Zeraeph. Your (following) passage needs to be clarified, as it is too vague and generalized- "Alexithymia is not necessarily a fixed personality trait, in some studies it has been shown to be state-dependent. Objections to its validity have been raised, in particular that it has been applied to clinical populations without correcting for the prevalence of depression in those populations"

::You need to make clear exactly '''who''' applied the alexithymia concept improperly, to '''which''' clinical population/s, and in '''which''' studies, specifically. Otherwise you make it sound like general practice that the alexithymia concept is always applied incorrectly. If you cannot be specific then the sentence does not belong, and I will remove it as misleading (incomplete).

:::I don't have to make ANYTHING clear, I just found one citation for cc's statement. You claim to know of others and yet deleted it rather than put them in. --] 14:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

::It would also be more accurate to say that alexithymia is "not always" a fixed trait, instead of your present wording "not necessarily" which may also mislead readers into thinking that the "trait" idea may be in complete doub't. It isn't! The majority of studies confirm alexithymia as a stable trait. See Disorders of Affect Regulation for empirical proof. ] 11:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::"Not necessarily" is a better phrase, simpl because it could mean either way. "Not always" implies that it has been established beyond doubt that there are times when it is a fixed trait, and it has not.--] 14:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


:::Ok. I've just read that article you cite, and can also see you are not quoting it faithfully. Where does it use the phrase "without correcting"?? ] 12:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

::::I didn't *quote* anything, I popped it in as a citation for the existing text, it doesn't need to be verbatum. In fact, too much verbatum is a BAD IDEA vis a vis copyright --] 13:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::: Maybe it might be a good idea to at least quote key terms. That was things won't stray too far off the research findings. ] 14:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

::PS. As I said, I have no problem with the mention of alexithymia as state dependent, in fact I welcome it. I just dont want to see the wording deliberately or accidentally inferring that it must forever be ''one or the other'' across the entire range of disorders. It can be either, potentially. When it comes to clinical studies, the trait finding definitely appears more frequently, but the state finding also crops up as a valid finding sometimes. On a tangential issue, I wouldn't be surprised if Berthoz, Hill, or Frith have ascertained whether alexithymia in AS is state or trait. Although one might assume that the alexithymia in AS is enduring, it would be good to see the findings. ] 12:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

::::Well then, let's not state that "most studies" say one or the other, without actually finding 'em all and counting 'em...I was prepared to accept that "most studies" found it stable, until I did a REALLY NARROW search for a certain type "state dependent" and found SO MANY STUDIES. --] 13:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC) And what do all those "so many studies" say, Zeraeph?? ] 14:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

::::Zeraeph. If you make out that there is an argument about state vs trait alexithymia, I will ask you to prove it, and if you can't I will delete it. Also, if you misquote studies as you did with the alexithymia-depression study, then I will correct or delete it. You wrote a sentence about an "objection" aired by the authors of that study, and when I read the study I saw nothing that strongly worded, and in fact the study was not concerned so much with whether or not other studies had screened for depression, but whether there had been adequate follow-up with the chosen patient group.
:::: There is no real debate about whether alexithymia should be considered either a state or trait. Rather it depends on the individual and context. The experts are not arguing about this as much as you think. All that has to be said in a simple sentence is that there can be state or trait versions of alexithymia. simple. I could probably easily dig up references (which I have frequently come across) to the much more frequent finding of trait alexithymia, but at this stage I don't even consider it that important. There doesn't have to be a big conspiracy, nor a battle between state or trait, nor a battle between various researchers. Lets just keep it simple, clear, and referenced. ] 14:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
:::::Stop distorting things, CC wrote those things, you deleted them, while claiming you knew of references for them. which was inexplicable behavior on your part, so I took 5 minutes to dig up a single reference to cover replacing half the statement.

:::::HOWEVER, during those five minutes I found out that there MOST CERTAINLY IS a valid dabate (something I had never heard of until you wantonly deleted CC's text), and I am rather afraid that now I know that, I cannot, in all conscience, allow you to continue POV pushing to distort and suppress that in the article.

:::::I sincerely wish that you would go away, have a little think quietly, and recognise that you might have a far better grasp of the world around you if you looked at it with a view to finding out what IS there rather than with a view to finding evidence to support your, often distorted, pre-formed ideas. As that is unlikely, I am hoping to get a couple of editors who are as impartial as fate, and VERY fond of verifiable facts, and NPOV, to keep an eye on your POV pushing antics that are a lot less subtle than you think they are. --] 14:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::::PS. And just to show how ridiculously confusing this has become, I think i just unloaded POV I left in myself on the first try *chuckles* --] 14:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::Zeraeph. I'm not even slightly tempted into an argument with you. I think its better to get on with the editing. All I'll do is talk/correct/delete something if its wrong. Alternatively if you write something really representative and faithful to sources then you have my blessing. At this stage I think we just need a simple reference to the existence of state and trait alexithymia, and maybe a brief definition of what each is, rather than introducing some monumental debate about something which will just muddy the waters. I have very good sources for such a statement, and may draft it if nothing better comes along shortly. ] 14:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::How about something like this- There are two kids of alexithymia, 'primary alexithymia' which is an enduring psychological trait which does not alter over time, and 'secondary alexithymia' which is state dependent and disappears after the evoking stressful situation has changed. These two manifestations of alexithymia are otherwise called 'trait' or 'state' alexithymia. (PS these terms primary/secondary = trait/state are faithful renditions of how they are used by clinicians).

:::::I don't know..... maybe we could work around that (which is a slightly paraphrased version of how it is written in Disorders of Affect Regulation p.37). ] 15:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Nice as a compromise, but hardly encyclopaedic! :o) ALL points of view must be represented, including the one you cite above, attributed to it's sources, not common belief (so *NOT* encyclopaedic *rolling eyes*) so I suggest you add it under the existing text, with attribution, and place all your quotes in paranthesis in future, as this is a courtesy to the source, in acknowledging that these are their words. --] 15:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Just one thing. Dont get offended but I think theres real problems with your reading of the depression-alexithymia study: "Objections have been raised to the methodology used, in particular that studies have been applied to clinical populations without correcting{{Views needing attribution|date=August 2007}} for the prevalence of depression in those populations." ] 15:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::READ MY LIPS - that is NOT my reading, it is cc's, I don't know one way or the othjer, but I don't think it should be deleted until he has been asked for a citation on it. --] 16:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::I dont think the authors 1. "objected" and I also dont think the authors 2. talked about problems of other studies not "correcting for prevalence of depression". What the study ''did'' say was that other studies may not have, according to their knowledge, completed satisfactory '''follow-up''' studies with these depressed groups.] 15:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::1. I don't think they "agreed" with it either, besides, that is just the most accessible citation I could find in a 5 minute search, cc may have more and may never even have SEEN the citation I found. 2. Nobody says it did, that part is still waiting for a citation from cc or deletion --] 16:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

::: I think you will find that depression is regularly screened for by clinicians studying alexithymia in certain groups. But they may not have (as this study hints) done adequate follow up studies. So I think your statement needs rewording to capture those issues. ] 15:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::I think you need citations for those assertions as much as cc needs citations for his assertions--] 16:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::: This really needs looking at. Also, I don't know if its right to say that other academics "differ" with Taylor and Bagby, but rather that they focus on the state issue. I don't think any of these academics are really "differing" or "disagreeing" on this point, and as far as I know all the academics accept that there is both state and trait. The language of "differ" sounds way too antagonistic and oppositional, and I really don't see that reflected in the literature. ] 15:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

::::::I VERY much doubt if you have a clue what goes on inside other people's heads at all, let alone academic you have never met, fact is, their findings DO *differ* not only from your own POV but also from the valid source you cite, so that, I am afraid, it must be CALLED "differing" in the name of simple accuracy. Though I agree, without citation "object" really Is a bit POV. (though nowehere near as POV as that which thou seekest to establish ;o) )--] 16:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Ok. I'm going out to lunch. ] 15:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:12, 2 April 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Alexithymia article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days 
This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconMedicine Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconPsychology Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Psychology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PsychologyWikipedia:WikiProject PsychologyTemplate:WikiProject Psychologypsychology
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconAutism
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Autism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of all aspects of autism and autistic culture on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AutismWikipedia:WikiProject AutismTemplate:WikiProject AutismAutism
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconDisability
WikiProject iconAlexithymia is within the scope of WikiProject Disability. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.DisabilityWikipedia:WikiProject DisabilityTemplate:WikiProject DisabilityDisability


Archives
Archive 1

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.


Etymology

Is there any evidence for the alternative etymology listed on this page? The word αλέξω being part of the etymology doesn't seem to make much sense here. Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 00:41, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Alexithymia in Holocaust survivors

Condition was common but is not mentioned in the article on Misplaced Pages. During 10 year period 1991-2001 I evaluated Holocaust survivors for German government for Wiedergutmachung as restitution for war crimes, based on the concept of Vergangengheitsbewältigung. There are references to the connection that I claim, though I do not have them with me now, other than my diagnostic use of it in a brief article about my clinical work, that I can provide. Also, I suggest that you contact some established psychiatrist for further information. I’m a retired MD neurologist, ph.d. neuroscientist, board certified in psychiatry and neurology, also with master’s degree in psychology. Bukkehave 1 October 2022

If you can supply some bibliographical references, other editors can assess whether they meet Misplaced Pages standards for reliable sources, and perhaps incorporate them into the article. GrindtXX (talk) 20:27, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
A quick google search turns up: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9018679/ "Alexithymia in Holocaust survivors with and without PTSD" and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2597865/ "Alexithymia, masked depression and loss in a Holocaust survivor" . Also possibly relevant is the much more recent: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3402/ejpt.v5.23870 "Traumatic experiences, alexithymia, and posttraumatic symptomatology: a cross-sectional population-based study in Germany" . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.17.176.73 (talk) 01:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Infobox image

A drawing by an artist with alexithymia depicting confusion about one's own emotions

I'm proposing to remove the infobox image (from Jane Austen's Emma), added by Waddie96 in this edit of 5 June, which seems to me quite wrong. In the novel, Emma is a self-confident young woman who tries to act as a matchmaker within her social circle, but has no desire to marry herself, and is in what she thinks of as a platonic friendship with Mr Knightley. At the end of the book, she realises she's in love with him - at which point he proposes to her. So she's certainly emotionally confused, but the quote about "She could really say nothing" has far more to do with her being overwhelmed by her emotions, rather than any sort of "emotional blindness". I appreciate that it's not easy to illustrate an abstract psychological state, but I think this image is downright misleading. Personally, I don't see what was wrong with the image that used to be in the infobox (right; removed by Belbury 20 Dec 2022), that was expressly created to illustrate alexithymia. Any further comments before I'm bold? GrindtXX (talk) 11:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Be WP:BOLD :-) waddie96 ★ (talk) 15:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
No further comments, so I've switched the two images. GrindtXX (talk) 15:20, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
Must have missed the ping on this one. I described this drawing of a person in silhouette holding some worms (?) as "puzzling" when I removed it last year, and would stand by that. It seems about as useful as something like File:Noun questions 1325510.svg (a head outline with question marks), for the general idea of a human being puzzled in their brain.
Maybe less useful, for looking more like a person wondering whether to go with their head or their heart on the issue of whatever they're holding in their hand.
I'd agree with your view on the Emma illustration. Perhaps this article just can't be usefully illustrated from what Commons can offer. Belbury (talk) 18:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
I agree the image isn't immediately "readable" (in that it's not clear what the figure is holding); and, insofar as it is readable (it pretty obviously suggests some sort of confusion or mismatch between intellectual and emotional intelligence), it doesn't really enlighten the reader a great deal specifically on alexithymia. But in its favour is that fact that it was created by an autistic artist (User:MissLunaRose12, who appears not to have been active on Wiki since 2022) to reflect her own perception or experience of alexithymia, which has to count for something. My own view – and I know not all editors agree – is that most articles are improved by having some sort of lead image, even if it is "eye candy", and only peripherally relevant to the topic. This article is about a psychological state, which is never going to be easy to illustrate: I think this image is far from perfect, but still quite a lot better than nothing. GrindtXX (talk) 14:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm with you on the eye candy angle, a lot of my gnoming at Misplaced Pages is adding even very mildly representative images to articles. My concern on this one is that the diagram may be slightly worse than nothing by strongly evoking the conscious "do I use my head or follow my heart?" decision metaphor, which is (at least as I'm reading it) the opposite of alexithymia.
Maybe a more explanatory caption would help. Belbury (talk) 15:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure a better caption would really improve things (especially in the absence of MissLunaRose12 to guide us): I feel the message of the image is just one of emotional confusion rather than anything more specific. However, I don't feel strongly on the matter, so I suggest we leave things for a few days for further input, and then if there's nothing and you want to remove the image, I'll have no objection. GrindtXX (talk) 13:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
I am here for a few days. The person in the image is holding a tangle toy, which is a type of fidget tool that some neurodivergent people use. MissLunaRose12 (talk) 02:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
Categories: