< Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Browse history interactively ← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 14:43, 1 September 2007 view sourcePenwhale (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users7,574 editsm →Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/1/0): tally in the wrong place← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 03:40, 31 January 2023 view source AmandaNP (talk \| contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Bureaucrats, Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators45,699 edits What the actual fuckTags: Replaced Undo
Line 1:		Line 1:
			{{Short description\|Wikimedia project page}}
	{{/Header}} <!-- frontmatter of this page -->
			<noinclude>{{pp-protected\|small=yes}}{{pp-move-indef}}</noinclude>
	{{/How-to}}
			{{/Header}}
			{{/Case}}
			{{/Clarification and Amendment}}
			{{/Motions}}
			{{/Enforcement}}

	~~== Current~~ requests ==		]
			]
	<!--place new requests immediately under this line, above any prior requests-->

	=== THF / Michael Moore ===
	: '''Initiated by ''' <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> '''at''' 22:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Involved parties ====
	*{{userlinks\|THF}}
	*{{userlinks\|DavidShankBone}}

	; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

	; Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried
	This debate has been going round in circles for some time, since at least July to my eyes, and involves a number of inter-related problems. As soon as one thread is archived from ANI, another one pops up, and at one time I think it was running at ANI, ], article and user talk pages. The fundamental issue is not resolvable by debate, because there is no evident consensus, and an arbitrated settlement seems likely to be the only effective remedy. Finally, David Shankbone has asked me to bring this here as he too does not believe the dispute will be resolved without arbitration.

	==== Statement by ]====

	* ] has recently changed username; his previous username was his real name and that identifies him (as he acknowleedges) as the author of some trenchant criticism of ]
	* There was a dispute between THF and David Shankbone over the article {{la\|Sicko}}, which has been the focus of offsite criticism written by THF and published in The American
	* The external dispute and the on-Wiki dispute have merged to the extent of Moore's website attacking THF, which...
	* Led to an argument over whether Moore's website is therefore an attack site, which came out as "no" as long as links are not used to harass THF
	* The dispute over THF's article was settled as not including or citing it.

	At this point: THF has accepted consensus not to include the link, but the dispute over his continued editing of Moore-related articles refuses to die. Some think that THF should avoid issues of conflict of interest by not editing articles in respect of Moore, since THF's day job includes writing critical pieces about Moore. THF does not accept that, and has some supporters in that.

	Result: Impasse.

	Many thousands of bytes of debate with several dozen admins active have not resolved this, and it is not fundamentally a user-to-user dispute, since the user-to-user issues can be resolved by the users leaving each other alone and if necessary application of the ], but the question of whether THF may be considered to have a conflict of interest remains to be settled, and it's not clear to me who can settle it other than ArbCom, as THF asserts there is no conflict, and some admins agree, and some disagree.

	] says: ''It is not possible to simultaneously pursue NPOV and an activist agenda. Editors who have exceptionally strong professional, political, or financial commitments to a particular point of view are asked to refrain from editing in affected subject areas. This is particularly true when the affected subject areas are controversial.'' THF appears to be pursuing an activist agenda, has a professional and financial commitment to the subject of Moore, and the subject is controversial.

	On the other hand, ] says ''A strong point of view expressed elsewhere on a subject does not necessarily mean POV-pushing editing on Misplaced Pages; that can only be determined by the edits to Misplaced Pages.''

	Cards on the table, I think that being his day job plus the off-wiki dispute puts it beyond a strong point of view and into a conflict of interest, at least to the point that THF should probably restrict himself to the Talk pages of Moore related articles, but it could be called either way.

	I want to stress that apart from occasional forgiveable lapses neither party has done anything to earn a block or other sanction, it's settlement of the issue of whether this is a material conflict of interest that's needed.

	<b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 22:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by ] ====
	I share the above sentiment and the prevailing consensus that this intractable and highly disruptive dispute will wind up before ArbCom eventually.

	I urge ArbCom to clarify the COI rules such that interested editors can openly declare their COI and maintain a right to make noncontroversial edits and good faith editorial suggestions on the talk page of conflicting topics. This is in accord with ArbCom precedent.

	A more restrictive policy will deter future editors from ''ever'' declaring their potential conflicts of interest. This would be very bad for Misplaced Pages. Known conflicts are much easier to monitor. Clear, non-punitive rules should be set down for editors like THF. ] '']'' 22:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by ]====

	I got involved in this thing when people first started claiming michaelmoore.com was an attack site. Since then, I have been vaguely following THF's disputes and also editing his article. What I've noticed is that THF is contradictory and in being so draws arguments out much further than they need to be. One of the things that looked so suspicious when this dispute started was he demanded that everyone who knew his name not mention it - a task impossible to do if one is discussing a potential COI, particularly a COI raised by mm.com, the "attack site" everyone was discussing. THF claimed it was for privacy - but then . He insisted, however, that everyone separate his name and his username the extent that he - but just now threw caution to the wind and . He has gotten into a habit of prolonging threads by insisting on privacy, claiming people are harrassing him, whatever, and then completely blowing his own cover. He seems to be craving privacy only when it suits his agenda for people not to know who he is. To be honest, given the size of Misplaced Pages, his knowledge bases and the endless swirling controversy between him and his COI, perceived or real, I do not know why THF has continued to edit articles related to Michael Moore. His presence is clearly resulting in more heat than light.

	This is not to say that David Shankbone is justified in endlessly following THF around wiki and repeatedly the same accusations over and over again. But I think both men are incapable of not having the last word and that's what's driving this. They can't resist countering the other's claim - David uses COI, THF uses ]. What results is a very long and circular thread that sucks in completely innocent bystanders, most of whom don't understand what's going on, and in their attempts to explain David and THF go on another round of accusations and counter accusations, frsutrating all who have to read it. The other issue is of course that there are several accusations of COIs going on, which is confusing - whether THF has a COI in view of the fact that he once worked for a pharmaceutical company criticised in Sicko, whether he has a COI related to the fact that he had a piece of journalism published attacking Sicko's ranking as the 4th highest grossing documentary, and then tried to cite his article in both Sicko and 25 other films he mentioned in it, whether his current job means he is incapable of writing in a non-biased manner on Michael Moore (which is not actually something THf has been accused of, but he and some supporters claim he has and he is being targetted for being right wing). There's probably some more COIs I've forgotten.

	I think the simplest answer for Arbcom, should they accept this case, is to decide whether THF has a COI or not. If he does, he should stop editing Michael Moore and continue his commendable efforts at WP:BLP/N and other areas of interest (I am surprised he has not written anything on tort reform yet). If he doesn't, fine. Either way, both THF and David should then be ordered not argue with each other outside of their talkpages on pain of blockage. THf can edit, David can photograph. And that will be that, all will be sweetness and light, and I can sleep through the night without waking up to yet another AN/I thread about THF, his article, his edits, his COI, his name, his pet hamster, his favoured hot beverage, his earliest memory...

	==== Statement by ] ====
	THF, ] of the ], is here on Misplaced Pages with an agenda not to make articles NPOV, but to make them conservative and, specifically, to attack Michael Moore. His edits and efforts to change pages are disruptive, and violate ], ], ] and ].
	#], ], ] - The genesis of this issue was that ] had a problem that Box Office MoJo's , used by every mainstream source, lists ] at the fourth highest-grossing documentary. THF, who is ''not'' a film expert, thought it was wrong that they did not include "documentaries" like ] and ]. So he attacking Michael Moore, that his employer published on their website, that also includes a new ranking of docmentaries, and IMAX films (which were not audited until 2005 and included busloads of schoolchildren as paying full price when they pay discounted or free admission). With these new "rankings" Sicko was the 22nd highest-grossing documentary. THF is neither an expert on film, nor are his "new" rankings--which took issue with Box Office Mojo, not with Sicko, although his article is a hit piece on Moore--used anyone. When he this article around the Internet on right-wing websites, even ''they'' called into question his inclusion of these films. Then he that his own OR, that is not used by anyone, should be included on all 25 film articles of those found in his ranking and that it is not to do so. The issue spread to ANI, COIN, several user pages, et. al. THF still sees no problem with adding his own documentary ranking to 25 film articles.
	#] - In a similar vein, THF created an article, with no sources, to a 9 minute home-made propaganda commercial, ], and then inserted it into the ], ] and ] articles. This is an agenda
	#] - THF continually reapplies the NPOV tag to ], and the main issue he is currently arguing, amongst others is that we do not include 's criticism of how the World Health Organization compiles it statistics. Moore is mentioned in half a sentence, and not critically. The criticism is directed at the WHO, which has nothing to do with the film's use of widely-used statistics but the premiere international body that does such reporting.
	#] - After THF's Michael Moore attack piece was published, Moore noted--did not attack--that THF is, in fact, Ted Frank of the American Enterprise Institute (a fact THF had on his User page for a year) and that he edited Moore's Sicko article 95 times. Because of this, THF an effort to have all references to MichaelMoore.com completely removed from Misplaced Pages. ]
	#], ], ] - THF continually argues with a multitude of editors on a weekly basis, 5 to 10 in the last week alone. He continually quotes policy and guideline that has no bearing. For instance, of what he calls a "personal attack" and uncivil statement by one editor on his talk page. Clearly, it is neither. THF constantly makes accusations against people that they are vandalizing, being incivil, or attacking him, when none of that is occurring. Look at the example to see. But you have to look at the diff - because THF does not archive his talk page and removes all comments he does not like, which is many many many.
	#Legal threats and spurious accusations - I never once threatened THF, and , yet he '''still makes spurious accusations''' and misuses the law (I went to law school as well) to try and back himself up.
	#The use of his name - I actually never rubbed THF's name in his face. For a year he was ], with the introduction on his User page, "My name is Ted Frank, and I work at the American Enterprise Institute." I used his real name back when he was using it himself, just like someone calling me "David" or "David Shankbone." ''Two-thirds of the way'' through the Sicko argument he changed his User name and it took some adjusting. It would be like if I all of sudden demanded everyone call me DSB. I mean, I think for a lot of people, especially those involved in discussions over issues with me, it wouldn't magically happen. But then that left the issue of his public dispute with Moore under his real name, and it became increasingly difficult to avoid the 800 pound gorilla in the room of who he was, and the fact he was, in fact, trying to insert material he wrote. But I wasn't casting about his name like a child leaving breadcrumbs in the woods.
	#There are many arguments THF has raised against me he has not supported, including the one above. He also said two other editors were 'wantonly' using his name, and I think since THF had so many arguments going at once with so many people, over the same issues, I am answering for their behavior as well. I do not see many diffs backing up arguments against me, whereas I have supplied quite a few. As , "Misplaced Pages....reward persistence over accuracy." The same philosophy appears to be at work with me. Say it enough, it and it becomes true; no need for diffs. Say enough times multiple admins threatened to block me because of my harassment, and it becomes fact. Say enough times I was ]ing, and it becomes fact. Out of the 2,500 pages I have edited on Misplaced Pages, I think THF and I tangled only on about 3/4 articles. However, when I posted my original portrait of ], THF somehow created a redirect for ] to his page. When I voted to "Keep" an article (I forget which one, but I can find it if I need to), THF shows up to Delete it. When I am in an RfC over my ] photo, THF starts to comment about it on my Talk page. These are disparate topics. The topics he and I engaged in were ''all'' related. When I started to question the totality of THF's edits, I had trouble figuring out where to go. I was constantly told that the place I brought up my issue was the wrong forum, but I was not told, except by THF, that the complaint had no merit. So if that is "forum shopping" then that's what I was doing - trying to find the proper place to have these issues discussed. Issues that, clearly, have merit.
	#Regarding my own behavior: I make no assertion I am 100% correct or that I could not have handled the situation better. I have never encountered a situation like this before on all my time on Misplaced Pages and found it exhausting and I found some of the support for THF's proposals, especially in regard to his new documentary ranking, bewildering when these were clear violations of many of our policies and guidelines, as outlined above. But I am more than happy to hear advice on how to better handle a situation such as this in the future. I'm no saint.
	#I do, however, have examples of my own good faith. Articles I did portraits for and created when I was a newbie a year ago, ] and ], I initiated speedy deletes against because in hindsight these people aren't notable. I know ] and did her portrait, but did a "weak delete" on her AfD because her notability was marginal. I included criticism about Michael Moore on ]. I gave THF a barnstar, found on his User page. I THF get a better controversy section crafted on ]. The only edits I made to ] were to put in two sources and correct an awkwardly-worded sentence. I offered to do his portrait; he clearly enjoyed having his own Misplaced Pages article . Even though I love ] I insisted his drug use be included in his article.I congratulated someone when they replaced my ] photo with a better one. I voted to keep ], something ] thanked me about on my Talk page. The list goes on...
	I admit, I would be sad to see THF go, but I would definitely not be sad to see his disruptive agenda go, if he were to retire. We can use him, but it appears THF consistently makes the argument that we must take the good with the bad. For all the admins that threatened to block me, there is not one message to that effect on my talk page, and not one diff supplied by THF. In fact, he supplies very few diffs. Only links to policies and guidelines. THF seems to be saying in his threatened retirement that if we don't let him do what he wants, he will go. He doesn't even want his behavior examined, behavior that he thinks is so righteous. If I am wrong, then I am wrong and will abide by any decision. I invited two people to make statements that have dealt with THF. '''THF is welcome to invite all these admins and editors who have warned me to make statements.'''

	==== Statement by THF ====
	I object to this arbitration request, from the title on down.

	This '''is''' a user-to-user dispute, and a one-sided one: DavidShankbone has systematically harassed me over the last month--including sending off-wiki threats using the Misplaced Pages e-mailer that quite frankly violated United States federal law (18 USC § 875). When I clerked, I saw people go to jail for less, but I was so motivated by the spirit of ] that I made the mistake of accepting David's insincere apology that consisted mostly of continuing to attack me for wrongdoing. This can be resolved without RFA intervention if admins simply enforce existing policies and guidelines against ] the same way they do when it is left-wing editors who are being harassed.

	Guy's request has many factual mistakes and omissions:
	*He incorrectly characterizes my ], which has nothing to do with Moore.
	*He omits the fact that not once has COI/N found a problem with my mainspace edits, even on the two occasions I reported myself for guidance. See, e.g., ].
	*He omits the fact that I did not write a free-lance article about Sicko until '''after''' I had participated in the ] page edits for over a month (including three consecutive RFCs that agreed that Moore partisans were incorrect to revert edits that I made).
	*He omits the fact that my request for information about the attacksite policy was hijacked by several other editors (including David), and that I unilaterally asked people to stop fighting about it, even as several admins continued to fight and support the idea of a delisting. I even defended the block of an editor who edit-warred to remove references to the moore site.
	*He omits the fact that after multiple admins told David to not mention me again or he would be blocked for harassment, David made '''fifteen''' edits in under 20 hours attacking me on ANI and canvassing on a user-talk page, without any admin taking action other than threatening me not to respond to the false allegations David was making against me.

	JzG's proposal is that the fact that a blogger working for the subject of an article made an off-wiki criticism of the fact that I edited the article, I have an intractable COI. It positively isn't the case that subjects of articles get to dictate who edits them by criticizing them off-wiki.

	DavidShankbone has created massive disruption by repeatedly complaining for three weeks that I made a '''proposed edit on a talk-page''' that '''never resulted in any mainspace edits'''. There were 54 comments in that discussion, and I made 9 of them. David made 17 comments, another 7, two others 6 each, with the other 9 split up among several editors. Consensus was reached against my proposed edit after an RFC that I closed on 10 August, three weeks ago. (David accuses me of trying to put my article on 25 pages. The "25 pages" allegation comes in response to a talk-page argument that , and .) The talk-page content dispute resulted in a COIN complaint, and the consensus of that was that I did not violate COI by making a talk-page request, which is exactly what ]. In the ], and a proposed change to the COI guideline to restrict talk-page discussion, explicitly aimed at me, was ]. I closed the RFC myself on 10 August. The only reason anyone is still discussing it is because three weeks later, David continues to forum-shop the complaint on over twelve different pages, despite not once anyone finding any wrongdoing on my part, and having failed to achieve a change in guidelines to prevent my nine talk-page comments in support of a proposed edit. He now has the gall to complain that my actions are disruptive, when the disruption is entirely of his own creation. (And, ironically, after spending so much effort to argue against any inclusion of my article about Moore on the grounds that the opinion wasn't notable, David, though he was in an ongoing dispute with me, edited the ] article to include it.)

	I shouldn't have to defend this manufactured controversy for a twelfth time here, when the ''']'''
	*5) Knowledgeable users, including those who have been engaged in controversial activities, are welcome to edit on Misplaced Pages, provided they cite reliable sources for their contributions and respect ] and ], especially Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought, Misplaced Pages is not a propaganda machine and Misplaced Pages is not a battleground.

	::Passed 8-0

	*6) The policy expressed in ] as applied to controversial experts forbids violation of ], ], and ] by undue focus on Misplaced Pages articles regarding them or organizations affiliated with them, or on their editing activities.

	::Passed 8-0

	#The arbitration request is effectively a ]. ] is doing fine editing articles about subjects in which he is paid to write about his opinions and in which he has a strong point of view, in part because when people ]. The question is whether the same principles can also be applied to permit right-wing editors to focus on editing an encyclopedia instead of defending themselves against people violating ], ], and ]. This was never treated as a close question before (the BabyDweezil CSN ban !vote was 11-1), and I still don't understand why it is being treated as a close question now that requires RFA intervention. If the straightforward policies were being applied evenly, there would be no need for arbitration.
	#] is also straightforward, and I haven't violated it. Are ], or not? I've only "violated" a version of the COI guideline that doesn't exist, has been consistently rejected at ] when people try to expand the scope of that guideline, and isn't applied against Cberlet, or WMC, or any of the multitude of other non-right-wing editors who attract people unfairly accusing them of violating COI when there isn't POV-pushing. I'm here as a hobby. I've been a productive editor, and I've been careful to participate in a number of Misplaced Pages administrative tasks, and cleaning up articles and mediating disputes like ] and ] where I have no interest so that there is no question of me being a SPA. (Compare Cberlet's or WMC's edit histories to mine: {{user2\|Cberlet}}; {{user2\|William M. Connolley}}; {{user2\|THF}}). Am I wrong to expect that a right-wing thinktank fellow who writes about trial lawyers should be treated the same way and with the same courtesy as a left-wing ] who writes about the Christian right (and makes 103 edits to ]) or the same way an opinion writer for ] is permitted to edit controversial articles about people he has written for EMS about? If I am, I'm happy to leave: what attracted me to Misplaced Pages was NPOV, and if that core principle is just spin and there isn't any intent of enforcing rules neutrally, I don't want to be here.
	#Not only is ], but I don't want it to be one: if I am going to spend time writing legal briefs and compiling evidence, I want it to be on a more important subject than whether I should spend time on a hobby--I just turned down an opportunity to write a Supreme Court amicus brief on the ] because of other deadlines, and I'd have trouble spending time looking in the mirror if I was instead spending weeks at an Arbcom when no one in earlier dispute resolution ever identified a single mainspace diff that violated Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines. I'm not a neo-Nazi or a Velikovskian: I have political views well within mainstream American political thought. And if being within the American conservative mainstream means that whether I should be treated with civility is a debatable proposition that I need to ] in an arbitration, then that speaks far worse about Misplaced Pages than about me, and I'll get more real-life writing done instead. If this goes forward, I retire. I was here to edit an encyclopedia, not play David's games. ] 23:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	====Statement by Newyorkbrad====
	Several months ago, I encountered THF in an earlier dispute concerning an alleged conflict of interest involving him. At the time, I gave him some general advice and told him to let me know if there were any further issues. Awhile later, he mentioned to me that a couple of threads had arisen on ] concerning his editing of ] and asked me to opine there. At that time, it appeared to me that THF was doing the right thing in confining his edits to talkpages when addressing issues as to which he might be perceived as having a borderline COI. Others' opinions on the threads were more divided but there was probably a consensus, if not a unanimous one, that THF's editing at that stage was acceptable.

	I have not had a chance to follow in as much detail the recent controversies concerning THF's editing of the ] film ]. I can see a more arguable case for that being a potential COI problem than the earlier editing. On the other hand, we must be clear in evaluating potential conflicts of interest that we do not disqualify anyone who self-identifies with a body of non-wikipedia writing or a personal point of view from editing. There are distinctions to be drawn between matters arising from an editor's personal socio-economic or political views, which fall within the NPOV policy, and financial or allied interests that trigger the COI policy.

	A related question is whether even apart from COI, THF's, or for that matter David Shankbone's, edits significantly violated NPOV. Still another question is whether even if THF's editing allegedly crossed the line, whether in an isolated instance or more seriously, whether David's single-minded determination and pursuit of the issue was itself excessive. There have certainly been times when I had the feeling that one or two editors averse to THF's editing were becoming a bit too close in mode of operation to Inspector Javert.

	This group of issues would benefit from consideration from some of Misplaced Pages's most experienced and decided editors. That consideration typically occurs on a policy talkpage, but if in this instance it needs to occur in front of the arbitrators, then so be it. Solving a controversy that has generated this much heat and attention is within the ArbCom's reasonable role, although I agree with those who have written above that plausible outcomes here do not include sanctions such as the blocking or banning of any editor. More generally, we cannot set a policy that subject-matter experts in contentious fields are barred from editing even if they commit to try to follow NPOV.

	With respect to the issue of use of THF's real-world name and affiliation, despite the fact that he revealed these himself (in a laudible explanation of his potential COI in the first instance), common courtesy would suggest that if the user now wants to be referred to as THF rather than via another name, that should be respected wherever possible, and gratuitous mention of any other version of his name should be avoided. On the other hand, if the COI issues are going to be resolved, some further mentions of his name and affiliation may, unfortunately, be unavoidable. Under no circumstances should these be thrown in his face with an attitude of "ha ha, you have no ability to be anonymous anymore" which has occasionally cropped up in the past couple of weeks.

	At the end of the day it is well within the arbitrators' discretion whether to take this case, but if they do, I agree with THF that it must not degenerate into a political free-for-all spewing all sorts of allegations and rhetoric in all directions, but should be narrowly focused on the specific issues raised. It certainly should not be a quasi-legal proceeding lasting for months; THF is assuredly right that he has enough of that sort of thing to deal with in his day job, as do some of the rest of us. But Guy is right that someone, whether the arbitrators or administrators elsewhere, needs to cut the Gordian knot and address this situation soon. ] 00:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	====Statement by ATren====
	I have a lot to say on this matter, but I will try to keep it brief:
	* I have repeatedly requested specific diffs that show abuse by THF, and nobody has yet produced such a diff. There have been some vague accusations of POV editing, but nothing that would raise an eyebrow if they were edits by an anonymous user.
	* THF did not pursue the matter of on-Wiki anonymity. He initially inquired about delinking Michael Moore's site because his photo and personal info were on the top of the front page with a clear motive of intimidation of a Misplaced Pages editor - and that usually is grounds for delinking. But he did not pursue the matter - on the contrary, Noroton, I and others were the ones pursuing the case, and he even explicitly requested us to stop. The entire drama was further exacerbated by several editors ''spuriously'' using THF's name in what appeared to be ] violations, which seemed to annoy THF - but again, THF backed off when it was apparent that some editors (notably, ]) refused to stop using his real name.
	* Based on my recent experience with COI, it appears that the policy is increasingly being used as a tool in content disputes - in order to silence the other side of a content debate. I believe that this case is a perfect illustration of this pattern, by virtue of there being almost no evidence of actual abuse by THF. From what I can tell, the only thing THF did wrong was honestly disclose his identity.
	* ''We should not be punishing users who disclose their viewpoints.'' Again, I return to the fact that THF's edit history would not have raised such a ruckus if he hadn't disclosed his identity and affiliations. Until I see real evidence of abuse, the only conclusion I can make is that we are punishing this user for his disclosure, and rewarding those who relentlessly pursue the COI complaint without showing any evidence of abuse. ] 00:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	====Statement by ]====
	It appears to me (and very likely appears to non-Wikipedians) that the timing of this arbitration request has a great deal to do with the recent action taken by Michael Moore's website. So the likely effect of opening the case at this juncture would be to encourage other website owners who single out individual Wikipedians. ArbCom has ruled before that it cannot regulate actions taken elsewhere on the Internet. By the same token, it ought not to let such actions force its hand. I wrote to Michael Moore's webmaster when that site singled out this Wikipedian, and in my message I cited a previous RFC where I had responded with a post that had been fairly sympathetic to Michael Moore. The site never replied: to the best of my knowledge they are making no attempt to work within Misplaced Pages's venues. This belongs in regular ]; please reject the proposal. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 00:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	====Statement by ]====
	I agree with the sentiments that this will end up in arbitration sooner or later, although that is made somewhat moot by ]'s self-declared retirement. I also agree that it should never have ended up in this position, however. A while back, I came into contact with THF through a COI/N discussion which seemed to be missing the point of COI; that is, those accusing THF were missing the point. However, THF was also being notably incivil, as were his accusers. I would characterise the overall result of that discussion, as it pertained to THF, as not finding any breach of the COI guidelines, nor NPOV or similar in relation to any COI. However, the feeling seemed to be that THF was working 'near the edge'. I would agree with that view, at the time. Since then, I have not been shown any diff showing any tendentious editing by THF, and far more POV-pushing from left-wingers (a term which I proudly apply to myself). I might be personally disgusted by THF's political views, but they're not unusual in America, or the world in general, and NPOV says they have a place in wikipedia articles where they are relevant, and have reliable sources. I'd always assumed that the left-wing bias of wikipedia is that us lefty types are more likely to participate in such things, support free software and free content, and so on. However, a right-winger turns up, tries to ''supplement'' articles with ''relevant'' right-wing POV, and gets nothing but grief, despite (or perhaps because of) abiding by COI guidelines and discussing edits in advance. What makes this really worrying is that ''no one seems to think this is a problem'', or at least very few people. ] seems to pursue THF, ready to revert or report at the slightest sign of material he objects to. I feel that, if this arbitration goes ahead, it should also include the behaviour of DavidShankbone. ](]) 03:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by ] ====
	Firstly, there is simply no COI by THF editing Michael Moore articles or articles on Michael Moore movies. He has no interest in the success or failure of Michael Moore. Only in the broadest political sense of left vs. right do they conflict on ideas and if that's a conflict of interest than anyone who is part of a Union or who voted would have a COI. THF is critical of Michael Moore. That does not mean there is a conflict of interest. Secondly, the timing of all the hub bub about THF coinciding with his mention on Michael Moores website for his real world job raises questions about editors being proxies for Michael Moore. THF has been open about his professional affiliation for a while. But only after being mentioned negatively with respect to Wikipeida on MM's website did his Misplaced Pages biography resurface and these accusations of COI come to a head. Editors that bring off-wiki disputes to Wikipeida with the purpose of trying to intimidate or stop editors from participation should be strongly cautioned and/or sanctioned. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. --] 03:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by Smb ====

	I would like to make a comment, if permitted (though my remarks are reproduced because I don't have the ability to find new words to express the same thoughts). I agree with ] when he observes and says it is the totality of ]'s edits -- his agenda, disruptive editing, and warring with other users -- that gives cause for serious concern. That agenda, even when he appears to be editing farther afield, often comes back to the same thing: ] and '']''. Allow me to elaborate (with some examples and diffs).

	THF frequently suggests that there is some left-wing conspiracy afoot, a systematic problem in Misplaced Pages "where left-wing polemics are consistently treated differently than right-wing polemics." To get some measure of this, he considers Reuters News Agency to be left-wing. And his politics occasionally spills over into edit summaries Sixteen times he mentions the 'left-wing' on ''Sicko's'' talk page. At one point ] kindly requested he stop because such "comments will only serve to fuel some people's flaming that Misplaced Pages is a hotbed for left-wing hysteria."

	THF has compared ''Sicko'' to ''The Great Global Warming Swindle'' on four separate occasions. They should be considered and treated the same, he argues. Three editors remarked on this, and each one (], ] and myself) rejected the comparison. On this occasion it was pointed out to him that Moore had been upfront about his starting point. Not so the director of ''TGGWS''. Moore maintains there are many excellent qualities in socialist systems (fact) and these should form the backbone of a new non-profit American system (opinion). That's partly what his film is about -- highlighting the good things and making people aware of the alternatives. ''The Great Global Warming Swindle'', on the other hand, is opinion masquerading as science. Durkin's film championed research that was sneered at by peer review journals, and in many cases rejected. The production team were found to have altered scientific charts and graphs, etc etc. Perhaps something about this makes him mad. I'm not certain.
	THF's bulletin list of 'omitted ''Sicko'' criticisms' (found ]) rapidly descends into farce on this very point. I'll try to explain quickly. Moore makes a fleeting reference to the number of uninsured people at the beginning of ''Sicko'', but then proceeds to say the film isn't really about them; rather, it's more about those who have cover but find themselves getting into all sorts of difficulty when they require medical assistance. According to the notes and sources on Moore's website, the uninsured figure came from the ] (cdc.gov). Clinton used these statistics. President Bush uses them. Yet, on his list, THF wants to turn this into another criticism of ''Sicko'' because there happens to be a non-governmental report that says the number of uninsured is lower. Take a moment to consider this in view of THF's artificial comparison (above). Moore cited a widely circulated peer-reviewed report, yet because THF found a study that says the figure is lower, he wants to make this a ''direct'' criticism not of the official body that produced the report, but of ''Sicko''. Moore can't win. (Incidentally, figures released only two days ago from the ] corroborate those of the CDC.) And the same is true of the United Nations ]. Moore cites one of their reports after criticising Hillary Clinton. The WHO is a credible organisation that produces independent reporting. Take a stab at which Misplaced Pages page THF has recently been editing with a view to making the same criticism stick on ''Sicko''? It all leads back to Michael Moore and his film on health-care reform.

	THF even created a new page for ''Uninsured in America'', a nine-minute infomercial (for want of a better description) that barely registers on any radar. (This infomercial advocates privatised health-care.) It doesn't even merit an entry on IMDb. It has obvious notability issues yet not only did THF go ahead and create a page for it on August 5 at 18:05 , but five-minutes later at 18:10, he is found embedding a link to it on ''Sicko''. This is not a good example of an editor providing fluid access to existing Misplaced Pages content.

	And in addition to the ''Sicko'' criticism piece he had published in ], THF said in August that "rather than research and write a section on factual inaccuracies on ''Sicko'' for Misplaced Pages, I'm going to research, write, and try to sell such a piece for wider publication." I think that is for the best, because several of the criticisms he is ''stretching'' to make here don't belong in an encyclopedia. To this extent I can understand David Shankbone's very real concern. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. ] 06:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by User:Iamunknown ====

	THF may or may not have a "conflict of interest" as defined by ]. Clearly there is disagreement among editors. I wonder, however, what the general public would think. I know that Misplaced Pages does not do everything that the general public does (esp. regarding biographies and notability), but our perception as neutral is important, and outside opinions should be considered.

	The disagreement over the conflict of interest guideline is apparently created in part by recent Arbitration Committee rulings (mentioned above), which seem contradictory. I hope the Committee will clarify, the following points in particular:

	*(1) How strictly is WP:COI to be interpreted?
	*(2) To what extent does someone who conflates their Real Life job and editing habits have a conflict of interest, and under what circumstances is this an unacceptable editing behaviour?
	*(3) Should editors with a conflict of interest be banned from or encouraged to contribute solely to talk pages of the relevant wiki-areas, or should some other option be considered which does not force them to hide their alleged conflict of interest?

	I don't think that the issue of THF's full name, which no one is using any longer, or the MM.com debacle, which seems resolved as "no consensus to list as an attack site", should be addressed.

	Hope this helps, ] 06:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by Messedrocker ====
	Let me express my thoughts bullet-style.

	* THF willingly used his full name for editing Misplaced Pages for a duration of time. This cannot be changed.
	* As it has been demonstrated, his full name is known by people. Again, this cannot be changed.
	* THF has asked that people stop using his name, and part of it involves his name change to "THF". If he does not wish to be referred to by his full name, then we should respect that wish.
	* THF is right to feel uncomfortable if someone calls him by his full name. That is not license for him to behave wildly or respond with personal attacks, but it would be a good idea to tell the person who referred to him by his full name to cut it out.

	The point? The cat may be out of the bag, but we should still respect his wishes of privacy. ] (]) 07:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	==== Clerk notes ====
	:Recuse from any clerk activity in this case. ] 22:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (2/0/0/0) ====
	* Accept. ] 00:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
	* Accept ] 00:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	----

	=== Violetriga ===
	: '''Initiated by ''' ] '''at''' 16:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Involved parties ====
	*{{admin\|Violetriga}}
	*{{user\|John254}} (initiating party)

	; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


	; Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried
	Please see .

	==== Statement by ] ====
	In the the Arbitration Committee stated that "Violetriga is admonished for undeleting content which was deleted under the BLP policy without going through a full discussion to determine its appropriateness, as outlined above. Any future administrator action that violates the BLP policy will result in her immediate desyopping once it is brought to the attention of the Committee." In blatant violation of the principle's requirement that articles deleted citing violations of ] "must not be restored, whether through undeletion or otherwise, without an actual consensus to do so", ] unilaterally undeleted a redirect that was deleted citing ] concerns, then wheel-warred over the deletion (see ). This alone would constitute grounds for the "immediate desyopping" of ]. However, ] has recently engaged in ''more'' administrative misconduct: on August 28, 2007, she ], with whom she was engaged in a massive edit war across many articles, using administrative rollback (see , etc) in violation of ], which expressly ] administrators from "block users with whom they are engaged in a content dispute" ''and'' ] short "cool down blocks", such as the three minute ] placed against ]. It is high time for ]'s extensive administrative misconduct to be addressed. ] 16:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by uninvolved Penwhale ====
	Um, edit-warring over sophomore<->second is ]. (although I have to say that second is probably more globally accepted). About the BLP redirect... Violetriga was the person that initially ''REDIRECTED'' the name to the new article (although naming the person in the article doesn't exactly help?) - ] \| <sup>] / ]</sup> 16:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	*I agree with AnonEMouse that if the wheel war was the issue, it should've been brought up last month. - ] \| <sup>] / ]</sup> 16:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	**Respond to Thatcher, I believe that the only merit in this request is this at best: Has Violetriga violated ]? Are we fighting over a (un)deletion of redirect? Why was this not brought up last month if it were the case? - ] \| <sup>] / ]</sup> 11:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by uninvolved AnonEMouse ====
	Please reject. Dispute resolution has not been tried here. The RFAR admonishment has nothing to do with the lame "sophomore" edit war, and while it's arguably closer to the redirect, that was over a month ago, and no one has discussed it for weeks. --] <sup>]</sup> 16:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by uninvolved GRBerry ====
	A wheel war involves at least two parties. If the wheel warring is going to be an issue in this case, the other participants need to be brought in as parties also. The log demonstrates one admin that did all of the deletions and an admin other than Violetriga that did a restoration. Either add them both as parties and sanction appropriately or drop the whole issue. I recollect discussions at the time, and they would need to be brought into evidence if anyone can find them. (Some are probably on now deleted pages.) ] 16:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	::I agree with AnonEMouse that this case is probably best rejected. Glad he pointed that out while I was typing my first comment. ] 16:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	====Statement by slightly involved Melsaran====
	Violetriga seemed to have gotten another (final) chance after the wheel warring incident with JzG. It was over a month ago, and has since been forgotten. Also, the block of Bouncehoper was (indeed) inappropriate, like I pointed out at an , but does not have anything to do with this arbitration case. This arbitration case was about ''BLP undeletions'', not inappropriate blocks. Please reject. <b>]</b> (]) 17:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	=====Response to Thatcher131=====
	Personally, I feel that Violetriga has seriously breached the community's trust with regards to her admin access several times, and I wouldn't care at all if she were to be desysopped   however, as the request currently stands, it proposes that Violetriga be desysopped because of the admonition in the Badlydrawnjeff arbitration case. An inappropriate block that doesn't have anything to do with BLP does not fall under that remedy. Also, the userbox thing is irrelevant now, because it was more than a year ago and she wasn't sanctioned; let bygones be bygones. The current request is simply not a valid reason for desysopping. <b>]</b> (]) 19:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by Thatcher131 ====
	Violetriga wheel-warred over the deletion of {{la\|Abhilasha_Jeyarajah}} . Note that Violetriga's undeletion of this ''same'' article on 30 May was part of the evidence in the previous arbitration case. Violetriga also blocked a user with whom he was edit warring. The block was only 3 minutes, "to get his attention" so he would discuss the dispute, but Violetriga should have involved others. In fact, the whole lame edit war could have been handled by involving additional editors to support (if that was the consensus) Violetriga's position. Violetriga also wheel-warred in the ] case although no action was taken at this time. Does the Committee endorse Violetriga's continued status as an administrator? ] 18:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	====Statement by WJBscribe====
	I urge ArbCom to accept this case to look into all recent administrative conduct by Violetriga. She is a longstanding Wikipedian and has made editorial contributions of high quality but I believe her conduct as an administrator has of late been completely unacceptable and has fallen below basic community norms administrators are expected to adhere to. She wheel warred on two occasions as described by Thatcher above. When I raised concerns about Violetriga's conduct her reply was . I do not think that such an attitude is acceptable - if other admins comported themselves in this manner the result would be utterly chaotic. There is rarely any great rush - admins actions we disagree with can be reviewed and should be overturned by consensus, and not because another admin judges them "wrong". This latest inappropriate block by Violetriga is part of an ongoing pattern that shows that Violetriga lacks sound judgment as to when to use her administrative tools. I do not think it appropriate for an editor who believes repeated reversal of actions of other admins can be appropriate and blocks (however shortly) those she is engaged in a dispute with to continue to serve as an administrator. <span style="font-family: Verdana">]]</span> 20:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by ] ====
	Thatcher puts his finger on it. Not only has Violetriga done something that she was admonished not to do, she has done it in one of the places explicitly discussed at the time, and as the quote cited above by Wjbscribe shows, she is completely unrepentant, explicitly stating that she thinks it's acceptable to wheel war when you think the other person is wrong. Perhaps someone could find an example of a dispute where either party thinks the other side ''is't'' wrong? It seems to me that either Violetriga has not taken the admonition to heart, or it was not clear enough, or it requires further clarification, because a lot of us think it was violated and she clearly doesn't.

	Consensus ''never'' trumps ], nor does it permits use of administrative tools to undo another administrator's actions without discussing the matter first. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 22:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by ] ] ====
	I just wrote a load but lost it so I'll be brief. The claimed BLP violation <s>came ''during the BDJ case'' before the admonishment decision had even passed</s> (got my dates wrong...). I have responded about the claimed unacceptable block on WP:AN/I - the block worked insofar as it finally got Bouncehoper talking without being a punishment. ] ] 11:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
	:] covers most of this, I feel, as there was consensus on that talk page to include the name and thus a redirect should be present. I don't think that the undeletion of a redirect to something ''that explicitly includes the name of said redirect'' is in any way a BLP violation. This matter was discussed at the time anyway and I fail to see the reason for it being brought up now. ] ] 13:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	==== Clerk notes ====
	: (This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

	==== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/1/0) ====
	* Recuse. I may make a statement concerning ]. ] ] 14:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	----

	=== Serbophobia ===
	: '''Initiated by ''' ] '''at''' 14:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Involved parties ====

	==== Statement by ] ====
	I am having request that ] article be deleted from wikipedia by decision of Arbitration Committee. Reasons for this request is that wikipedia is taking POV stand with this article. During ] there has been nationalistic hate which has survived until today. Between ], ] and ] hate toward ] is possible to call Serbophobia. In Serbia it has been hate towards Albanians, Bosniaks and Croats which is possible to call ], ] and ]. Example that this hate has been real (and it has been created by propaganda) is this harvard article: . Today on wikipedia articles with names Anti-Albanians, Anti-Bosniaks and anti-Croats sentiment (or ]) are deleted and only article with name Serbophobia has stayed. In my thinking this is wrong and this is POV. We need on wiki to have all this articles or article Serbophobia need to be deleted. In the end it is funny wikipedia is now having article which speak how people hate state/nation which has started 10 years of war and there is no article which speak why have been (and are today) hated nations which are victims during this period. I will end with fact that until now article has been nominated 4 time for deletion and minimal 1 of this times has survived only because of alert given on Serbian wiki ] 15:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by ] ====

	This may be unnecessary, since one arbitrator has already indicated the likely way this request is going to take, but for the record, here's a bit of background. We have seen the creation of many articles of an "Anti-X'ism" format, listing grievances one ethnic group has about perceived or real discrimination from its neighbours. Many of these articles were put on AfD, sometimes separately, sometimes in small groups. The AfDs were often heated and dominated by ILIKEIT and IDONTLIKEIT criteria, distributed along ethnic frontlines. Some were deleted, some not. Often, the debates revealed a notion of reciprocity: if you can have "your" Anti-X'ism article, I can have "my" Anti-Y'ism. Ultimately however, the decisions boiled down to an assessment of ] criteria in each separate case: while the mere existence of "Anti-X'ist" discrimination was often easy to demonstrate, its existence as a coherent object of a body of academic discourse and other reliable sources often was not. If I remember correctly, this is what saved the ] article, unlike most of the other Balkan ones.

	Thus, as pointed out rightly by jpgordon, this is predominantly a simple content matter. The only thing that might reach into the domain of arbitrable behaviour is where, occasionally, there may have been an element of disruptive POINTiness, both in writing these articles and in defending or attacking them at AfD, similar to what has been alleged in the case of the "Allegations of Apartheid" series. But it has generally not reached the level seen there, and I don't think there is ''currently'' any hot warfare going on, so I don't see what Arbcom would need to do here now. ] ] 16:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Clerk notes ====
	:I don't want to be unduly formalistic about things, but our model of arbitration really doesn't contemplate a case without any parties. ] 16:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/2/0/0) ====
	*Reject categorically. This is the very definition of a content issue, and ArbCom is not empowered by either the community or the Foundation to determine such things. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	* Decline per jpgordon. ] 00:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
	----

	=== The Powerpuff Girls ===
	: '''Initiated by ''' ] '''at''' 14:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Involved parties ====
	*{{userlinks\|Marcus2}}
	*{{userlinks\|Night Leon}}
	*{{userlinks\|Rattis1}}
	*{{userlinks\|SchmuckyTheCat}}

	==== Statement by ] ====
	There is a dispute about the popularity of ] in the ] and ]. Started by Rattis1, other 3 involved later. Now, it's Marcus2 vs. Night Leon.

	==== Statement by StC ====
	What?

	This should be rejected. It's not even at the level of a content dispute.

	Why am I a party? Why was I not notified? Who is the person filing it and why are they related to this at all?
	:] 16:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Clerk notes ====
	:Filing party advised to notify all parties of the request for arbitration. (We clerks are slipping; we should have noticed sooner that the notifications section was missing.) ] 16:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/3/0/0) ====
	* Decline, premature content dispute; please attempt the preliminary methods of dispute resolution before bringing this here. ] 17:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
	* '''Reject''' per Kirill. ]] 17:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
	* Reject. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	----

	=== Foxy Brown ===
	: '''Initiated by ''' ] '''at''' 10:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Involved parties ====
	*{{userlinks\|The Gnome}}
	*{{userlinks\|71.125.211.238}}
	*{{userlinks\|69.254.162.0}}

	; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

	; Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried

	==== Statement by The Gnome ====

	The '''Date of Birth''' of the artist ] is been changed back and forth. The artist claims in her MySpace Account that she was born in 1979. There is nothing else substantiating that claim. On the other hand, a states that she was born 6 September 1978. Parties 2 and 3, among other anonymous users, have been reverting the date back to the one claimed by the artist, despite strong/unique evidence to the contrary. Repeated efforts to elicit a reasoning from those parties have failed. (Which is why their opinion is not represented here.) I submit my request to fix the artist's DoB as indicated by the police record for '''arbitration''' and possible '''blocking''' of what appears to be a senseless edit war.

	==== Clerk notes ====
	: (This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)
	==== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/3/0/0) ====
	* Decline, premature; please attempt the preliminary methods of dispute resolution before bringing this here. ] 12:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	* '''Reject''' Premature and appears to be mostly a content dispute. Involve more members of the community and I think you can resolve this content dispute. If there are user conduct issues then try to solve by getting help from an uninvolved third party. If that fails then do an user conduct RFC. ]] 19:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	* Reject, premature, content dispute. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
	----

	=== Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley ===
	: '''Initiated by '''] '''at''' 11:43, 28 August 2007

	''regarding''

	* {{article\|Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley}}

	==== Involved parties ====
	* {{userlinks\|Mofb}}
	** {{userlinks\|62.136.27.125}}
	** {{userlinks\|81.77.230.46}}
	** {{userlinks\|81.77.248.148}}

	==== Statement by the subject ====

	The subject is the maker of the request. He and others have repeatedly tried to prevent posting of libelous material in a section entitled "philosophical and/or political views" which has been inserted into his biographical entry. At present, for instance, there is a reference to an article by George Monbiot, but no reference to the strongly-worded correction which the newspaper in question was compelled to print the following day. The subject has contacted the complaints team, and has given warnings that libel proceedings will follow if the libelous material continues to be posted. All attempts to prevent the libels, including a recent but now-withdrawn full protection of the page, have been unsuccessful. Balancing material is repeatedly removed, and hostile material inserted, to create a false, unfair, and detrimental impression of the subject's competence.

	To settle this matter, and to prevent future libels, I should be grateful if my biographical entry were deleted altogether from Misplaced Pages. Accurate biographical entries are available in Who's Who, Debrett's People of Today, etc., so the Misplaced Pages entry is not needed. I am mortally ill and do not want my reputation degraded so unfairly at the close of my life. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) {{{2\|}}}</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

	==== Comment by uninvolved ] ====

	See ] and its talk page. The reference above to a "strongly-worded correction which the newspaper .. was compelled to print" in fact refers to Christopher Monckton's own reply, which was printed in ''The Guardian'' on page 37 on ], ]; the above gives the incorrect impression that it was a newspaper correction rather than a 'right to reply' which ''The Guardian'' did not endorse. The piece was printed in a column called "The Response" which is described by the paper in the following terms: "The Response column offers those who have been written about in the Guardian an opportunity to reply". ] 11:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Comment by ] ====

	I've been watching this article for some time following its appearance on ] and ] in June this year. This request for arbitration seems extremely premature and this is fundamentally a content dispute, therefore outwith the remit of the Arbitration Committee. The history of the article has seen an anonymous editor (presumably ]?) repeatedly adding contentious unsourced material (including a copy-and-paste of an entire newspaper article) and being reverted by other editors. However, the anonymous editor has made no use of ], not even using the article's talk page. Nor has he even said ''which'' content he considers to be libellous, as far as I know. This lack of discussion or specificity has obviously made it rather difficult for the article's editors to resolve disputes. Arbitration does not seem to me to be the best way to resolve this issue. -- ] 18:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

	*I concur with JzG and Daniel's comments below. This suggests that there's a long-running wrangle between Monckton and Monbiot/''The Guardian''. It's worth noting that the same individual also appears to have threatened libel proceedings against Misplaced Pages at an earlier date concerning the articles ], ], ] and ] (now deleted) - all topics relating to Monckton. These were blanked by an editor from 62.136.27.125 on December 6, 2006 and replaced with the (very quickly reverted) message "Article removed pending resolution of libel proceedings". The same IP editor signed himself "M of B" in , so it seems safe to assume that it was the same complainant as in this case. -- ] 01:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by ] ====
	OTRS ticket is 2007082810012738, for reference. I recommend that arbitrators and other interested parties read the subject's letter, the tone of which may inform the decision and handling of this dispute.

	The present content has both Monbiot's article and Monckton's rebuttal, which seems reasonable. There is no suggestion that there are errors of fact within the article, only that the subject disputes statements made by another individual, which we report accurately and with ]. There is no suggestion that our reporting of the dispute is inaccurate, the subject's issue appears to be with the statements made by a notable individual on a shared field of expertise (or at least a field in which both appear to be considered qualified to comment). Issues of factual accuracy should, of course, be dealt with promptly, and we should show all due courtesy to the subject, while not compromising our editorial independence.

	Above all, though, while we are not here to publicise agenda-driven reporting, Misplaced Pages does not exist to fix external disputes. The dispute is between Monckton and Monbiot, with the Guardian as a venue; reporting this controversy does not seem to me to be a violation of policy, and to assert that A is wrong because B says so, rather than to say (as we do) that A says X and B disputes it, would be wrong, I think. It is not a surprise that Monckton does not like what Monbiot says - he does not accept the scientific consensus on global warming, whereas Monbiot is a trenchant critic of the climate change denial industry and a long-time advocate of strong action to reduce carbon emissions. ''We are not here to fix this problem.'' As documented criticisms go, a criticism in such terms in a major national newspaper by a widely-quoted authority is, like it or not, a notable criticism.

	With those facts in mind, this is not a ] issue, poses no issue of precedent requiring of ArbCom intervention, and it looks to me as if it can safely be handled as a regular content dispute unless it escalates further. The subject is in contact with OTRS, and volunteers can be trusted to remedy errors of fact promptly.

	* Update: OTRS ticket moved to Legal following subject's reply. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 22:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by ] ====
	Suggest this case is rejected by the arbitrators and the Wikimedia Legal team are left to deal with it via OTRS, given the recent queue reclassification for the ticket JzG cites. ''']''' 00:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Clerk notes ====
	: (This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

	==== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (1/2/0/0) ====
	* Reject. Premature, and likely a content issue anyway. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 21:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
	* Reject. Premature. I think the community can handle this content dispute and handle the user conduct issues if needed. ]] 23:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
	* Accept in order to clarify how the principles of ], ], ], and ] apply to this specific case. ] 14:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	----

	=== Bharatveer ===
	: '''Initiated by ''' ] <sup> ]</sup> '''at''' 14:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Involved parties ====
	*{{admin\|Moreschi}}
	*{{userlinks\|Bharatveer}}

	; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

	; Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried
	:Given the nature of request, mediation is not really relevant: this is a long-term behaviour pattern, not a dispute over one single article, or even a set of articles. User has been warned ''ad nauseam'' about his conduct, and given his block log he must surely be aware of problems. I doubt an RFC would accomplish anything. ] <sup> ]</sup> 10:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

	:Wait, what makes me an involved party here? I merely expressed my prior experience with this user, and which is not related to the issue raised by Moreschi here. I am not very active in Misplaced Pages since the start of the month, and won't be active until quite some time, and was definitely not involved in the edit dispute Moreschi mentions here (related to the article ]). Thanks. --] 05:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by Moreschi ====
	I'm coming to this from what's virtually an external perspective - one brush with this user at ] excepted.

	{{user\|Bharatveer}} has a long history of disruption of Misplaced Pages, particularly on India-related articles, and ]-related ones in particular. He's been blocked 5 times for 3RR violations, most recently by myself a couple of days ago. To a certain extent, however, the 3RR blocks serve to hide a massive amount of edit-warring - a review of his contributions has shown that in some weeks over half his edits are reverts. This is in addition to persistent incivility and personal attacks, which continue to this current date. ] documents some of the problems. Even when not violating 3RR, he will simply not leave the edit-warring alone. I am asking the arbitration committee either to consider supervised editing and revert limitation, or a ban for a year. ] <sup> ]</sup> 14:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
	:'''Note''': oh, almost forget: I would request that ] recuse or not participate. For what I should hope are blindingly obvious reasons. ] <sup> ]</sup> 16:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	:'''Note 2''' - there is no reason for anyone to be considered an involved party other than myself and Bharatveer, though others may add themselves if they wish. This is '''not''' a dispute over one single article, or even a set of articles. it is a question of behaviour pattern (to Baka: and yes: more recently I passed RFA with over 90 percent community support, if we're talking of elections). I explained to Blnguyen why I think he should recuse via email. ] <sup> ]</sup> 08:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by Bakasuprman ====
	Moreschi has already been criticized for poor admin judgment for an illegitimate block of myself in June, undone with the support of legitimate admins in the community. The real issue is that he is irreconcilably biased against the political viewpoint he supposed Bharatveer to espouse. The fact that no RFC/mediation has been brought is another signal that this is a witchhuny against bharatveer. I urge arbcom to reject this case.

	:I think blnguyen should stay on the case, and that moreschi's request is rather spiteful. Moreschi's admin judgment is clouded and his assertion that an ''elected'' arbitrator (who received over 80% community support at last count) is somehow compromised by bias is disgraceful. Blnguyen has blocked users when he saw fit and unblocked when he saw fit.<b>]]</b> 03:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by The Behnam ====
	I've only run into Bharatveer at the ] page, where he revert warred a whitewashed version of page several times. In no way did he participate in the talk page discussion, and some of his edit summaries were rather offensive. For example, in response to a revert by myself or others with a summary like 'rv - whitewashing', Bharatveer would undo this with 'rv - "white" washing'. I really don't appreciate such racial remarks, especially when applied without justification to reverts we made in good faith (to prevent whitewashing of a fringe theory). The actual content dispute aside, bringing 'race' into the equation when it shouldn't matter is very detrimental to the collaborative process.

	If this is the way Bharatveer regularly acts throughout Misplaced Pages, as Moreschi's evidence suggests, then I agree that it is high time for his conduct to addressed in a binding & authoritative investigation by the ArbCom. Regards, ] 15:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Statement by Ragib (who is not involved in this dispute, but rather expressing an observation here)====
	I ran into Bharatveer's unexplained revert spree in many articles. Most of the time, he only reverts with a summary like "rv", "rv to previous version" etc, without bothering to discuss anything in the article talk pages. Over the last two years, he has consistently continued this. Cleverly evading 3RR blocks by making 2 or 3 reverts per day, he has disrupted many articles including ] (where he demands links to the article ] despite the fact India didn't exist as a nation back then), ] etc.

	Since this is a behavior pattern, and not an isolated incident, I'd request the arbitrators (sans blnguyen) to take a look into this for the sake of Misplaced Pages. --] 17:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	:So you who have been in content dispute with BV is "uninvolved" while I who have not are "involved"? ''']''' ('']'') 07:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
	::Blnguyen, Ragib is listed in the "involved parties." :) <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 08:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
	:::Which is quite surprising, given that Blnguyen himself my name there. Given that I've been virtually out of enwiki with less than 100 edis in the last 30 days, this is quite interesting. Whatever twisted logic (not to mention conflict of interest) Blnguyen applied here, I do not consider myself an involved party here and neither does Moreschi in his original complaint. But this also shows yet again why Blnguyen should recuse himself from this case. By the way, I won't be checking back so please email me if anyone wants to drop me a note about this. Thanks. --] 06:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	::I am not an arbitrator. So, it doesn't matter if I had prior content dispute with BV. I'm not directly involved in the current issue with Moreschi, so I don't consider myself an involved party. Hypothetically, had I been an arbitrator myself, THEN my being a judge would definitely be a conflict of interest, considering prior edit-related disagreements. Thanks. --] 05:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Clerk notes ====
	*Bharatveer is currently blocked for a week: he should probably be unblocked to participate in this. ] <sup> ]</sup>
	**Unblocked by ] to participate in arbitration. ] <sup> ]</sup> 10:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

	==== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (3/0/0/0) ====
	*'''Accept''' Is user conduct issue and I think we can help. ]] 23:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
	* Accept. ] 00:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
	* Accept ] 13:37, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	----

	== Requests for clarification ==
	''Place requests for clarification on matters related to the Arbitration process in this section. Place new requests at the '''top'''.''

	===] Remedy===
	As the closing clerk, I noticed some interesting ''problems'' with the remedy 1 of this case. The remedy 1 puts edit supervision on the editors sanctioned in the ], however, at least 2 editors sanctioned in the original case was not named as a party to the newer case and was surprised/shocked of the development. I'd like some input from the Committee to explain the ruling on this. - ] \| <sup>] / ]</sup> 04:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
	:Also, under this case, other editors who edit in a similar manner to the previously-sanctioned editors may be placed under the limitations of the original ] case. Do these sanctions expire one year after the editor in question is notified, or are they indefinite as no time limit is mentioned? The supervised editing remedy from the second case appears to be indefinite, as no expiration is mentioned, so my question is whether this is indeed the case and whether the other remedies are still meant to expire after a year, including on other editors brought in under the Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 decision. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 06:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
	::I believe this situation requires attention from the committee. Frankly, I was always troubled by remedy number 1, which took all the users who were placed on revert parole (revert limitation) in the earlier case, and now placed them on supervised editing (which I gather is a new term for some form of probation and/or civility parole) as well. This was done despite the observation that although some of the parties to the earlier case had continued to display problematic behavior, others had done little or nothing wrong since the earlier decision, and there was no real reason to be applying additional remedies to them.
	::The problem is magnified if, as has been stated, some of the parties to the earlier case were not parties to the newer one. The case was such a sprawl and so many editors were listed as parties (and there was edit-warring over the list for awhile) that the clerk handling the case probably assumed that all the (unbanned) parties to the earlier case had been listed again. (From now on, I will check for things like this in every case myself.) If that didn't happen, then at a minimum anyone who was subjected to a remedy without having been notified of the case should be entitled to have the case reopened and to be heard on this issue. ] 19:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	:::Oops. See below.
	:::As far as the duration is concerned, "until the situation improves" is probably a good rule of thumb. I am content to leave the decision up to the enforcing administrators. ] 19:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	::::Replying to NYB, I was also the clerk in the original A-A case. However, this case was opened anew, so I did not add the parties from the old case to the new one. I never assumed that they were listed. - ] \| <sup>] / ]</sup> 20:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	:::::To clarify, there was no reason to look for the additional parties or add them at the beginning of the case. However, when a remedy showed up on /proposed decision (or originally in an arbitrator proposal on the workshop) applicable to "all the parties to the prior decision," we should all have checked then to make sure that all of them were parties in or had all received notice of the new case. My fault as much as anyone's. ] 20:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	*With due respect to Kirill I think this is a non-issue and his motion is a mistake. ] provides that ''any editor'' who edits disruptively on the topic of "Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Iran and the ethnic and historical issues related to that area" may be placed on civility parole, 1RR and probation by means of a warning on their talk page. The fact that some editors in the first case were not notified of the second case is easily remedied by a note on their talk page. Passing the motion below would take a small group of editors who were placed on 1RR and exempt them from the civility parole and probation that applies to every other editor on Misplaced Pages following an appropriate notice. ] 20:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	** They could be placed back on the remedy, yes; but only if they edit disruptively. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt; staying out of the second case does count for something, I think. ] 20:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	***Dren. I missed that remedy #2 still applied. Sorry. ] 20:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	****Thatcher, I had to look ] up. Clearly I have some remedial TV watching to do. More seriously, Penwhale, could you advise which users subjected to the remedy in the first case were not parties to the new case? (I ask you instead of doing the research myself as you know which users have complained to you already.) Thanks, ] 23:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	*****Not so much of "complaining", but TigranTheGreat and ROOB323 were the ones affected. - ] \| <sup>] / ]</sup> 01:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
	****** While ] was not included in the list of the parties to the second arbcom case, many users provided evidence of his behavior which they considered to be disruptive. So he was definitely a party to the second case, and he was well aware of it as he provided evidence himself. His non-inclusion was just a mistake, because most users considered all the parties to the previous case to be parties to the second one as well. On the other hand, no one complained about ROOB323, so he should be the only one affected. ] 06:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	===]===
	The arbitration committee has closed the above case.
	:Restrictions applying to Huaiwei:
	* {{user3\|Huaiwei}} is restricted to proposing only one page move, poll of editors, or policy change relating to ] per week. he may be blocked, for up to a year in repeat case, if he violates this restriction.
	* {{user3\|Huaiwei}} is placed on ] indefinitely. Any administrator may ban him from any article he disrupts, for cause.
	* {{user3\|Huaiwei}} is placed on General Probation indefinitely. Any three administrators may, for good cause, ban him from the site.

	The above is the shorthand restrictions placed on Huaiwei after an ArbCom case more than a year ago. Several months ago, it was found that Instantnood was not only being generally disruptive but also running farms of sockpuppets to disrupt votes/discussions and Instantnood is now permanently banned. Huaiwei hasn't been in any other kind of dispute resolution before or since the Instantnood issues.

	It's clear to me that while Huaiwei was wrapped up in Instantnood's belligerence (as were a half dozen others on the periphery) it was Instantnood's wiki-stalking of Huaiwei (which continues with sockpuppets even now) that caused the problem, and not a general problem with Huaiwei as an editor. Without the instigation of a bad actor, Huaiwei is an excellent and dedicated Wikipedian who has been with the project for several years. These restrictions and potential punishments hang on him like an albatross.

	I'd like ArbCom to review Huaiwei's contributions since the permanent banning of Instantnood and remove the previous restrictions.
	:]
	*You mean, like, the for edit warring he's received since then, most recently a month ago? --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
	**Instantnood was on 16 April. Huaiwei was blocked only one time after Instantnood was banned. --] 09:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
	::Right, Huaiwei has one 3rr with one user that is not Instantnood. I think the sequence of that one was, slow revert, Huaiwei realized he went over and reported it, both got blocked. He was also using the talk page to try and work out what was going on with someone belligerent.
	::One instance does not justify such harsh restrictions. ]
	:::Well, that one instance is not the justification, the entire history is. I'd like to see three clean months before I support lifting the restrictions, though. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


	I believe that in a similar situation recently, the committee voted that someone's probation from a prior case would be ended if he remained out of trouble for a specific period of time. That might work here. ] 16:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
	*I'm nowhere near a neutral party here (too many underlying reasons), but I second what NYB says. - ] \| <sup>] / ]</sup> 23:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

	'''Note''': See motion in arbitrator voting section, below. ] 05:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

	==Motions in prior cases==
	:''(Only Arbitrators may make and vote on such motions. Other editors may comment on the talk page)''

	=== {{userlinks\|Huaiwei}} ===

	:''Note: See also the discussion in Section 2 above.''

	I move that the restrictions, now over a year old, from the ] case on editor Huaiwei be lifted. While Huaiwei appears to have been involved in some edit wars and has received a number of 3RR blocks, I do not believe that the probation and limits on participation remain relevant at this point.

	:''There are 12 arbitrators participating or eligible to participate on this motion (there are currently 11 active arbitrators, but 1 who is currently away has already voted and remains counted), and of these, one has abstained. There are thus 11 net participating arbitrators, and a majority is 6.''

	:'''Support''':

	:# ] Co., ] 05:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
	:# ] ] 09:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# ] ] 13:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# ] 17:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

	:'''Oppose''':
	:# ''First'', I would like to see a clean block record for at least 3 months and no evidence of edit warring. ] 11:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# Oppose, per FloNight. ] (]:]) 03:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# ] 13:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	:'''Abstain''':
	:# As I suggested above, I'd like to see a bit more time. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:11, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

	<!--Please do not remove the above notice, and create a subsection for each new motion. Thanks.-->

	=== ] ===

	With the passage of time and Betacommand's continued contributions to Misplaced Pages, the Committee hereby restores Betacommand's administrative privileges under these stipulations:
	* Betacommand may not operate any bot that utilizes administrative privilege without prior approval. For the avoidance of doubt, the term "bot" is to be construed broadly to include any full or partial automation of the administrative functions not already in widespread use by other administrators. Prior approval may come from the Bot Approvals Group (BAG), or for bots that provide partial automation that would not ordinarily require BAG approval, this committee.
	* Betacommand must observe the notification requirements and delay periods specified in policy prior to deleting images.

	:''As there are presently 13 active arbitrators, a majority is 7. (Actually, there now are 11 active arbitrators, but 2 currently away/inactive have already voted on this motion.)''

	:'''Support''':

	:# ] Co., ] 15:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# ] 15:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

	:'''Oppose''':
	:# Uncomfortable with this, given his continually controversial behavior. ] 17:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# ] ] 03:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# Oppose. ''']''' ('']'') 03:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# Oppose. ] (]:]) 03:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# Oppose for now. Keep doing your good work and we can talk about down the road. I feel you are too controversial now to be effective as an admin. ]] 00:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	:# Oppose. ] 15:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	:'''Abstain''':
	:#: <s>Abstain until I discuss with Betacommand by email his views on blocking established users. ] 21:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)<s> See above vote.

	=== Extension of remedies in Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 ===

	Those parties to ] who were not named as parties to ] and were not given notice of the proceedings are exempted from the extension of existing remedies imposed by Remedy #1 in ]. They remain subject to Remedy #2.
	:''See also discussion above. As there are currently 11 active arbitrators, a majority is 6.''

	:'''Support''':
	:# We messed up here. ] 19:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

	:'''Oppose''':
	:# There is a defect in noticing everyone in, but the remedy should properly apply to everyone. ] 13:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

	:'''Abstain''':
	:#

	==Archives==

	*]
	*] (extremely sparse, selective, and unofficial)


	]
	]

	]
	]
	]
	]
	]

Latest revision as of 03:40, 31 January 2023

Wikimedia project page

ArbitrationCommittee

Dispute resolution (Requests)
Tips
Assume good faith Use etiquette Be civil Be open to compromise Discuss on talk pages Failure to discuss Help desk (Request)
Content disputes
Third opinion (Request) Mediation Noticeboards Request comments (Request) Resolution noticeboard (Request)
Conduct disputes
Administrator assistance (Request) Arbitration (Request)
v t e

Misplaced Pages Arbitration

About arbitration Talk Arbitration policy (CU/OS) Guide to arbitration Noticeboard + Talk Search archived proceedings Ban appeals Report
Open proceedings All open requests Case requests Clarification and Amendment requests Arbitrator motion requests Enforcement requests
Active sanctions Contentious topics (Log) General sanctions Editor sanctions
Arbitration Committee Discuss + Contact Members Procedures Elections Talk History Clerks + Talk Clerk procedures Conflict of interest reports
Audit Talk Statistics Talk Reports (pre-2016)

Track related changes
v t e

Shortcuts

A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Misplaced Pages. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

Request a new arbitration case
Request clarification or amendment of an existing case
This includes requests to lift sanctions previously imposed
Request enforcement of a remedy in an existing case
Arbitrator motions
Arbitrator-initiated motions, not specific to a current open request

Arbitration Committee proceedings

Case requests

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

Open cases

Case name	Links	Evidence due	Prop. Dec. due
Palestine-Israel articles 5	(t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t)	21 Dec 2024	11 Jan 2025

Recently closed cases (Past cases)

No cases have recently been closed (view all closed cases).

Clarification and Amendment requests

Currently, no requests for clarification or amendment are open.

Arbitrator motions

Motion name	Date posted
Arbitrator workflow motions	1 December 2024

Requests for arbitration

Shortcuts

About this page

Use this section to request the committee open an arbitration case. To be accepted, an arbitration request needs 4 net votes to "accept" (or a majority).

Arbitration is a last resort. WP:DR lists the other, escalating processes that should be used before arbitration. The committee will decline premature requests.

Requests may be referred to as "case requests" or "RFARs"; once opened, they become "cases". Before requesting arbitration, read the arbitration guide to case requests. Then click the button below. Complete the instructions quickly; requests incomplete for over an hour may be removed. Consider preparing the request in your userspace.

To request enforcement of an existing arbitration ruling, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. To clarify or change an existing arbitration ruling, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment.

File an arbitration request

Guidance on participation and word limits

Unlike many venues on Misplaced Pages, ArbCom imposes word limits. Please observe the below notes on complying with word limits.

Motivation. Word limits are imposed to promote clarity and focus on the issues at hand and to ensure that arbitrators are able to fully take in submissions. Arbitrators must read a large volume of information across many matters in the course of their service on the Committee, so submissions that exceed word limits may be disregarded. For the sake of fairness and to discourage gamesmanship (i.e., to disincentivize "asking forgiveness rather than permission"), word limits are actively enforced.
In general. Most submissions to the Arbitration Committee (including statements in arbitration case requests and ARCAs and evidence submissions in arbitration cases) are limited to 500 words, plus 50 diffs. During the evidence phase of an accepted case, named parties are granted an automatic extension to 1000 words plus 100 diffs.
Sectioned discussion. To facilitate review by arbitrators, you should edit only in your own section. Address your submission to arbitrators, not to other participants. If you wish to rebut, clarify, or otherwise refer to another submission for the benefit of arbitrators, you may do so within your own section. (More information.)
Requesting an extension. You may request a word limit extension in your submission itself (using the {{@ArbComClerks}} template) or by emailing clerks-llists.wikimedia.org. In your request, you should briefly (in 1-2 sentences) include (a) why you need additional words and (b) a broad outline of what you hope to discuss in your extended submission. The Committee endeavors to act upon extension requests promptly and aims to offer flexibility where warranted.
- Members of the Committee may also grant extensions when they ask direct questions to facilitate answers to those questions.
Refactoring statements. You should write carefully and concisely from the start. It is impermissible to rewrite a statement to shorten it after a significant amount of time has passed or after anyone has responded to it (see Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines § Editing own comments), so it is often advisable to submit a brief initial statement to leave room to respond to other users if the need arises.
Sign submissions. In order for arbitrators and other participants to understand the order of submissions, sign your submission and each addition (using ~~~~).
Word limit violations. Submissions that exceed the word limit will generally be "hatted" (collapsed), and arbitrators may opt not to consider them.
Counting words. Words are counted on the rendered text (not wikitext) of the statement (i.e., the number of words that you would see by copy-pasting the page section containing your statement into a text editor or word count tool). This internal gadget may also be helpful.
Sanctions. Please note that members and clerks of the Committee may impose appropriate sanctions when necessary to promote the effective functioning of the arbitration process.

General guidance

This page is for statements, not discussion.
Arbitrators or clerks may refactor or delete statements, e.g. off-topic or unproductive remarks, without warning.
Banned users may request arbitration via the committee contact page; don't try to edit this page.
Under no circumstances should you remove requests from this page, or open a case (even for accepted requests), unless you are an arbitrator or clerk.
After a request is filed, the arbitrators will vote on accepting or declining the case. The <0/0/0> tally counts the arbitrators voting accept/decline/recuse.
Declined case requests are logged at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Declined requests. Accepted case requests are opened as cases, and logged at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Cases once closed.

Requests for clarification and amendment

Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

Submitting a request: (you must use this format!)

Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
- Click here to file a request for clarification of an arbitration decision or procedure.
- Click here to file a request for amendment of an arbitration decision or procedure (including an arbitration enforcement action issued by an administrator, such as a contentious topics restriction).
- Click here to file a referral from AE requesting enforcement of a decision.
- Click here to file a referral from AE appealing an arbitration enforcement action.
Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.

Clarification and Amendment archives

1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18
19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	34	35	36
37	38	39	40	41	42	43	44	45	46	47	48	49	50	51	52	53	54
55	56	57	58	59	60	61	62	63	64	65	66	67	68	69	70	71	72
73	74	75	76	77	78	79	80	81	82	83	84	85	86	87	88	89	90
91	92	93	94	95	96	97	98	99	100	101	102	103	104	105	106	107	108
109	110	111	112	113	114	115	116	117	118	119	120	121	122	123	124	125	126
127	128	129	130	131

Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.

Guidance on participation and word limits

Unlike many venues on Misplaced Pages, ArbCom imposes word limits. Please observe the below notes on complying with word limits.

Motivation. Word limits are imposed to promote clarity and focus on the issues at hand and to ensure that arbitrators are able to fully take in submissions. Arbitrators must read a large volume of information across many matters in the course of their service on the Committee, so submissions that exceed word limits may be disregarded. For the sake of fairness and to discourage gamesmanship (i.e., to disincentivize "asking forgiveness rather than permission"), word limits are actively enforced.
In general. Most submissions to the Arbitration Committee (including statements in arbitration case requests and ARCAs and evidence submissions in arbitration cases) are limited to 500 words, plus 50 diffs. During the evidence phase of an accepted case, named parties are granted an automatic extension to 1000 words plus 100 diffs.
Sectioned discussion. To facilitate review by arbitrators, you should edit only in your own section. Address your submission to arbitrators, not to other participants. If you wish to rebut, clarify, or otherwise refer to another submission for the benefit of arbitrators, you may do so within your own section. (More information.)
Requesting an extension. You may request a word limit extension in your submission itself (using the {{@ArbComClerks}} template) or by emailing clerks-llists.wikimedia.org. In your request, you should briefly (in 1-2 sentences) include (a) why you need additional words and (b) a broad outline of what you hope to discuss in your extended submission. The Committee endeavors to act upon extension requests promptly and aims to offer flexibility where warranted.
- Members of the Committee may also grant extensions when they ask direct questions to facilitate answers to those questions.
Refactoring statements. You should write carefully and concisely from the start. It is impermissible to rewrite a statement to shorten it after a significant amount of time has passed or after anyone has responded to it (see Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines § Editing own comments), so it is often advisable to submit a brief initial statement to leave room to respond to other users if the need arises.
Sign submissions. In order for arbitrators and other participants to understand the order of submissions, sign your submission and each addition (using ~~~~).
Word limit violations. Submissions that exceed the word limit will generally be "hatted" (collapsed), and arbitrators may opt not to consider them.
Counting words. Words are counted on the rendered text (not wikitext) of the statement (i.e., the number of words that you would see by copy-pasting the page section containing your statement into a text editor or word count tool). This internal gadget may also be helpful.
Sanctions. Please note that members and clerks of the Committee may impose appropriate sanctions when necessary to promote the effective functioning of the arbitration process.

General guidance

Arbitrators and clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.
Requests from blocked or banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Arbitration Committee.
Only arbitrators and clerks may remove requests from this page. Do not remove a request or any statements or comments unless you are in either of these groups.
Archived clarification and amendment requests are logged at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Clarification and Amendment requests. Numerous legacy and current shortcuts can be used to more quickly reach this page:

Shortcuts:

Clarification and Amendment archives

1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18
19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	34	35	36
37	38	39	40	41	42	43	44	45	46	47	48	49	50	51	52	53	54
55	56	57	58	59	60	61	62	63	64	65	66	67	68	69	70	71	72
73	74	75	76	77	78	79	80	81	82	83	84	85	86	87	88	89	90
91	92	93	94	95	96	97	98	99	100	101	102	103	104	105	106	107	108
109	110	111	112	113	114	115	116	117	118	119	120	121	122	123	124	125	126
127	128	129	130	131

Motions

Shortcuts

This section can be used by arbitrators to propose motions not related to any existing case or request. Motions are archived at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Motions.

Only arbitrators may propose or vote on motions on this page. You may visit WP:ARC or WP:ARCA for potential alternatives.

Make a motion (Arbitrators only)

You can make comments in the sections called "community discussion" or in some cases only in your own section. Arbitrators or clerks may summarily remove or refactor any comment.

Arbitrator workflow motions

Workflow motions: Arbitrator discussion

I am proposing these three motions for discussion, community input, and a vote. Each seeks to improve ArbCom's functioning by providing for the performance of basic administrative responsibilities that sometimes go neglected, which, in my opinion, if successful, would significantly improve ArbCom's overall capacity. Motivation: We've known about the need for improvements to our workflow and capacity for some years now – I wrote about some of these suggestions in my 2022 ACE statement. It's a regular occurrence that someone will email in with a request or information and, because of the press of other work and because nobody is responsible for tracking and following up on the thread, we will let the thread drop without even realizing it and without deciding that no action is needed. We can each probably name a number of times this has happened, but one recent public example of adverse consequences from such a blunder was highlighted in the Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area case request, which was partially caused by our failure to address a private request that had been submitted to us months earlier. Previous efforts: We've experimented with a number of technological solutions to this problem during my four years on the Committee, including: (a) tracking matters on a Trello board or on a private Phabricator space; (b) tracking threads in Google Groups with tags; (c) requesting the development of custom technical tools; (d) reducing the appeals we hear; and (e) tracking appeals more carefully on arbwiki. Some of these attempts have been moderately successful, or showed promise for a time before stalling, but none of them have fully and fundamentally addressed this dropping-balls issue, which has persisted, and which in my opinion requires a human solution rather than just a technological solution. Rationale: The work we need done as framed below (e.g. bumping email threads) isn't fundamentally difficult or sensitive, but it's essential, and it's structurally hard for an active arbitrator to be responsible for doing it. For example, I could never bring myself to bump/nag others to opine on matters that I hadn't done my best to resolve yet myself. But actually doing the research to substantively opine on an old thread (especially as the first arb) can take hours of work, and I'm more likely to forget about it before I have the time to resolve it, and then it'll get lost in the shuffle. So it's best to somewhat decouple the tracking/clerical function from the substantive arb-ing work. Other efforts: There is one more technological solution for which there was interest among arbitrators, which was to get a CRM/ticketing system – basically, VRTS but hopefully better. I think this could help and would layer well with any of the other options, but there are some open questions (e.g., which one to get, how to pay for it, whether we can get all arbs to adopt it), and I don't think that that alone would address this problem (see similar attempts discussed above), so I think we should move ahead with one of these three motions now and adopt a ticketing system with whichever of the other motions we end up going with. These three motions are the result of substantial internal workshopping, and have been variously discussed (as relevant) with the functionaries, the clerks, and the Wikimedia Foundation (on a call in November). Before that, we held an ideation session on workflow improvements with the Foundation in July and have had informal discussions for a number of years. I deeply appreciate the effort and input that has gone into these motions from the entire committee and from the clerks and functionaries, and hope we can now pass one of them. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- One other thing I forgot to suggest—I'd be glad to write motions 1 or 2 up as a trial if any arb prefers, perhaps for 6-12 months, after which the motion could be automatically repealed unless the committee takes further action by motion to permanently continue the motion. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 23:39, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Workflow motions: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Workflow motions: Implementation notes

Clerks and Arbitrators should use this section to clarify their understanding of which motions are passing. These notes were last updated by an automatic check at 03:40, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Motion name	Support	Oppose	Abstain	Support needed	Notes
Motion 1: Correspondence clerks	2	3	0	4	One support vote contingent on 1.4 passing
Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener"	1	2	1	4
Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant"	0	1	3	4
Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial)	0	3	1	5
Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly	1	2	1	4
Motion 2: WMF staff support	0	5	0	Cannot pass
Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators	4	0	0	2
Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks	0	3	0	6

Notes

Motion 1: Correspondence clerks

Nine-month trial

The Arbitration Committee's procedures are amended by adding the following section for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it:

Correspondence clerks

The Arbitration Committee may appoint one or more former elected members of the Arbitration Committee to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee. Correspondence clerks must meet the Wikimedia Foundation's criteria for access to non-public personal data and sign the Foundation's non-public information confidentiality agreement.
Correspondence clerks shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.
The specific responsibilities of correspondence clerks shall include:

Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;

Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;

Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;

Organizing related correspondence into case files; and

Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.

The remit of correspondence clerks shall not include:

Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or

Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.

To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.
The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks.
All correspondence clerks shall hold concurrent appointments as arbitration clerks and shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4

Support

This is my first choice and falls within ArbCom's community-granted authority to approve and remove access to mailing lists maintained by the Arbitration Committee and to designate individuals for particular tasks or roles and maintain a panel of clerks to assist with the smooth running of its functions. Currently, we have arbitration clerks to help with on-wiki work, but most of ArbCom's workload is private (on arbcom-en), and our clerks have no ability to help with that because they can't access any of ArbCom's non-public work. It has always seemed strange to me to have clerks for on-wiki work, but not for the bulk of the work which is off-wiki (and which has always needed more coordination help). When consulting the functionaries, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that four functionaries (including three former arbitrators) expressed interest in volunteering for this role. This would be lower-intensity than serving as an arbitrator, but still essential to the functioning of the committee. We already have a number of ex-arbs on the clerks-l mailing list to advise and assist, and this seems like a natural extension of that function. The Stewards have a somewhat similar "Steward clerk" role, although ArbCom correspondence clerks would be a higher-trust position (functionary-level appointments only). I see this as the strongest option because the structure is familiar (analogous to our existing clerks, but for off-wiki business), because we have trusted functionaries and former arbs interested who could well discharge these responsibilities, and because I think we would benefit from separating the administrative responsibility from the substantive responsibility. The cons I see are that volunteer correspondence clerks might be less reliable than paid staff and that we'd be adding one or two (ish) people to the arbcom-en list. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Contingent on 1.4 passing. This option was not my first choice, and I'm inclined to try having a coordinating Arb first, if we can get a volunteer/set of volunteers. Given that the new term should infuse the Committee with more life and vigor, we may find a coordinating Arb, or another solution. But I think we should put this in our toolbox for the moment. This doesn't force us to appoint someone, just gives us the ability and outlines the position. CaptainEek ⚓ 05:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

I don't think we should extend access to the mailing list and the private information it contains beyond what is absolutely necessary. I understand the reasoning behind former arbitrators in such a role as they previously had such access, but people emailing the Arbitration Committee should have confidence that private information is kept need to know and that only the current arbitrators evaluating and making decisions based on that private information have ongoing access to it. - Aoidh (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
This is limited to former arbitrators for good reasons, most of them privacy-related. But the same concerns that led to this proposal being limited to former arbitrators are also arguments against doing this at all. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

Motion 1: Arbitrator views and discussions

I'd be glad changing this to only appoint former arbs, if that would tip anyone's votes. Currently, it's written as "from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps (and preferably from among former members of the Arbitration Committee)" for flexibility if needed, but I imagine we would only really appoint former arbs if available, except under unusual circumstances, because they understand how the mailing list discussions go and have previously been elected to handle the same private info. I am also open to calling it something other than "correspondence clerk"; that just seemed like a descriptive title. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I do like the idea of using our Arbs emeritus for this position (and perhaps only Arbs emeritus); it ensures that they have experience in our byzantine process, and at least at some point held community trust. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
@CaptainEek: I have changed the motion to make only former arbs eligible. If anyone preferred broader (all funct) eligibility, I've added an alternative motion 1.1 below, which if any arb does prefer it, they should uncollapse and vote for it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I also think that if we adopt this we should choose a better name. I know Barkeep49 meant this suggestion as a bit of a joke, but I actually think he was on the money when he suggested "scrivener." I like "adjutant" even more, which I believe he also suggested. They capture the sort of whimsical Misplaced Pages charm evoked by titles like Most Pluperfect Labutnum while still being descriptive, and not easily confused for a traditional clerk. CaptainEek ⚓ 03:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Whimsy is important -- Guerillero 08:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
@CaptainEek and Guerillero: Per the above discussion points, I have (a) proposed two alternative names below that were workshopped among some arbs ("scrivener" on the more whimsical side and "coordination assistant" on the less whimsical side; see motions 1.2a and 1.2b), and (b) made this motion a nine-month trial, after which time the section is automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to extend it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:10, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
I plan on supporting motion 1 over anything else. I've spent a week just getting onto all the platforms, and I'm already kind of shocked that this is how we do things. Not only is there a lot to keep track of, all of the information moves unintuitively between different places in a way that makes it very difficult to keep up unless you're actively plugged in enough to be on top of the ball – which I don't think anyone can be all the time. I just don't think a coordinating arb is sufficient: we need someone who can keep us on track without having to handle all of the standard work of reviewing evidence, deliberating, and making an informed decision. (Better-organized tech would also be great, but I'd need to spend a lot more time thinking about how it could be redone.) I understand the privacy concerns, but I don't think this represents a significant breach of confidentiality: people care more whether their report gets handled properly than whether it goes before 15 trusted people or 16. So, I'll be voting in favor of motion 1, and maybe motion 3 will be a distant second. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

References

Motion 1.1: expand eligible set to functionaries

If any arbitrator prefers this way, unhat this motion and vote for it.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

If motion 1 passes, replace the text The Arbitration Committee may appoint one or more former elected members of the Arbitration Committee to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee. with the text The Arbitration Committee may appoint, from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps (and preferably from among former members of the Arbitration Committee), one or more users to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee..

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4

Support

Oppose

Abstain

Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener"

If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "scriveners".

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4

Support

Nicely whimsical, and not as likely to be confusing as correspondence clerk. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

I think correspondence clerk is fine if role is something we're going with, it's less ambiguous as to what it entails than scrivener. - Aoidh (talk) 04:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
I have never heard that word before; at least "correspondence" and "clerk" are somewhat common in the English Misplaced Pages world. When possible, I think we should use words people don't have to look up in dictionaries. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

I think that because it's more archaic and possibly less serious, I disprefer this to either "coordination assistant" or "correspondence clerk", but would ultimately be perfectly happy with it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrator discussion

Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant"

If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "coordination assistants".

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4

Support

Oppose

bleh. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

I am indifferent between this and "correspondence clerk". Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
If we're going to use a role like this, either this or correspondence clerk is fine. - Aoidh (talk) 04:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
That would be okay. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:08, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrator discussion

Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial)

If motion 1 passes, omit the text for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4

Support

Oppose

I recently experimented with sunset clauses and think that frankly a lot more of what we do should have such time limits that require us to stop and critically evaluate if a thing is working. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
If this change is necessary, there should be a review of it after a reasonable trial period to see what does and does not work. - Aoidh (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:10, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

I have no preference as to whether this is permanent or a trial. I do think that nine months is a good length for the trial if we choose to have one: not too long to lock in a year's committee; not too short to make it unworthwhile. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrator discussion

Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly

If motion 1 passes, strike the following text:

To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.

And replace it with the following:

To that end, correspondence clerks shall be added to the arbcom-en mailing list. The Committee shall continue to maintain at least one mailing list accessible only by arbitrators.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4

Support

Much less trouble to have them on the main list than to split the lists. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Access to private information should be as limited as possible to only what is strictly necessary to perform such a task, and I don't see a allowing full access to the contents of the current list necessary for this. I'd rather not split the list, but between that and giving full access then if we're going to have a correspondence clerk, then it needs to be split. - Aoidh (talk) 04:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
Motion 1 is already problematic for privacy reasons; this would make it worse. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

I would not really object to this. C-clerks (or whatever we call them) are former arbs and have previously been on arbcom-en in any event, so it doesn't seem that like a big deal to do this. On the other hand, I would understand if folks prefer the split. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrator discussion

Proposed per Guerillero's comment below. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Motion 2: WMF staff support

The Arbitration Committee requests that the Wikimedia Foundation Committee Support Team provide staff support for the routine administration and organization of the Committee's mailing list and non-public work.

The selected staff assistants shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work. Staff assistants shall perform their functions under the direction of the Arbitration Committee and shall not represent the Wikimedia Foundation in the course of their support work with the Arbitration Committee or disclose the Committee's internal deliberations except as directed by the Committee.

The specific responsibilities of the staff assistants shall include, as directed by the Committee:

Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.

The remit of staff assistants shall not include:

Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or
Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.

To that end, upon the selection of staff assistants, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and staff assistants.

The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by staff assistants.

Staff assistants shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4

Support

Oppose

I appreciate that Kevin put this together, and I think this would be very helpful, maybe even the most helpful, way to ensure that we stayed on top of the ball. But just because it would achieve one goal doesn't make it a good idea. A full version of my rationale is on the ArbList, for other Arbs. The short, WP:BEANS version is that this would destroy the line between us and the Foundation, which undoes much of our utility. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:22, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Per my comment on motion 4. - Aoidh (talk) 01:31, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
I like the general idea of the WMF using its donated resources to support the community that made the donations possible. I am uncomfortable with putting WMF staff in front of ArbCom's e-mail queue, however, as this would come with unavoidable conflicts of interest and a loss of independence. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
The help would be useful, but the consequences would be detrimental to both ArbCom & WMF. Some space between us is necessary for ArbCom's impartiality & for the WMF's section 230 position. Cabayi (talk) 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

Motion 2: Arbitrator views and discussions

I am quite open to this idea. A professional staff member assisting the committee might be the most reliable and consistent way to achieve this goal. ArbCom doesn't need the higher-intensity support that the WMF Committee Support Team provides other committees like AffCom and the grant committees, but having somebody to track threads and bump stalled discussions would be quite helpful. I'm going to wait to see if there's any community input on this motion before voting on it, though. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators

The Arbitration Committee's procedures are amended by adding the following section:

Coordinating arbitrators

The Arbitration Committee shall, from time to time, designate one or more arbitrators to serve as the Committee's coordinating arbitrators.
Coordinating arbitrators shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.
The specific responsibilities of coordinating arbitrators shall include:

Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;

Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;

Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;

Organizing related correspondence into case files; and

Performing similar routine administrative and clerical functions.

A coordinating arbitrator may, but is not required to, state an intention to abstain on some or all matters before the Committee without being listed as an "inactive" arbitrator.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4

Support

This is currently my first-choice option; we have unofficially in the past had arbitrators take on specific roles (e.g. tracking unblock requests, responding to emails, etc) and it seemed to work fairly well. Having those rules be more "official" seems like the best way to make sure someone is responsible for these things, without needing to expand the committee or the pool of people with access to private information. Primefac (talk) 18:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I may still vote for the clerks option, but I think this is probably the minimum of what we need. Will it be suffucient...aye, there's the rub. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Of the motions proposed, this one is the one I'd most support. It doesn't expand the number of people who can view the ArbCom mailing list beyond those on ArbCom, and creates a structure that may improve how the mailing list is handled. - Aoidh (talk) 23:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Per Primefac. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

Motion 3: Arbitrator views and discussions

I am also open to this idea, though I am worried that it will be insufficient and haven't made up my mind on my vote yet. This idea was floated by a former arbitrator from back when the committee did have a coordinating arbitrator, though that role kind of quietly faded away. The benefits of this approach include that there's no need to bring anyone else onto the list. This motion also allows (but does not require) arbs to take a step back from active arb business to focus on the coordination role, which could help with the bifurcation I mention above. Cons include that this could be the least reliable option; that it's possible no arb is interested, or has the capacity to do this well; and that it's hard to be both a coordinator on top of the existing difficult role of serving as an active arb. I personally think this is better than nothing, but probably prefer one of the other two motions to actually add some capacity. Other ideas that have been floated include establishing a subcommittee of arbitrators responsible for these functions. My same concerns would apply there, but if there's interest, I'm glad to draft and propose a motion to do that; any other arb should also feel free to propose such a motion of their own. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I was partial to this idea, though it was not my first choice. I proposed that we might make it a rotating position, à la the presidency of the UN security council. Alternatively, a three person subcommittee might also be the way to go, so that the position isn't dependent on one person's activity. I like this solution in general because we already basically had it, with the coordinating arbitrator role. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek: I think your last sentence actually kind of nails why I don't love this solution? From a new person on the scene, it doesn't seem to me like trying old strategies and things we've already been doing is really going to solve a chronic problem. If there are arbs who really are willing to be the coordinators, that's better than nothing, but I haven't seen any step up yet and I'm not convinced that relying on at least one arb having the extra time and trust in every committee to do this work is sustainable. I am leaning towards voting for the scriveners motion, though, because I do love a good whimsical name theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
  My concern with this is that if an arb already has the time and inclination you'd expect them to be filling the role, as has happened in the past. Simply formalizing the role doesn't help if no one has the motivation to do it. It's still the option I support the most out of those listed, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
  I think formalizing it does move the needle on someone doing it. Two possible benefits of the formalization:

It makes clear that this is a valuable role, one that an arb should feel is a sufficient and beneficial way to spend their time. It also communicates this to the community, which might otherwise ask an arb running for reelection why they spent their time coordinating (rather than on other arb work).
It gives "permission" for coordinating arbs to go inactive on other business if they wish.

These two benefits make this motion more than symbolic in my view. My hesitation on it remains that it may be quite insufficient relative to motion 1. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks

In the event that "Motion 1: Correspondence clerks" passes, the Arbitration Committee shall request that the Wikimedia Foundation provide grants payable to correspondence clerks in recognition of their assistance to the Committee.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4

Support

Oppose

Misplaced Pages should remain a volunteer activity. If we cannot find volunteers to do the task, then perhaps it ought not be done in the first place. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
We should not have a clerk paid by the WMF handling English Misplaced Pages matters in this capacity. - Aoidh (talk) 01:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

Motion 4: Arbitrator views and discussions

Proposing for discussion; thanks to voorts for the idea. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I am leaning no on this motion. The potential downsides of this plan do seem to outweigh the benefit of being able to compensate a correspondence clerk for what will ultimately likely be something like 5 hours a week at most. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Community discussion

Will correspondence clerks be required to sign an NDA? Currently clerks aren't. Regardless of what decision is made this should probably be in the motion. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:29, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Good catch. I thought it was implied by "from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps" – who all sign NDAs as a condition to access functionaries-en and the CUOS tools; see Misplaced Pages:Functionaries (Functionary access requires that the user sign the confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information.) – but I've made it explicit now. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

You're right that that was there, but I missed it on my first readthrough of the rules (thinking correspondence clerks would be appointed from the clerk team instead). * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Why does "coordinating arbitrators" need a (public) procedures change? Izno (talk) 18:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

As Primefac mentioned above, it seems reasonable to assume that having something written down "officially" might help make sure that the coordinating arbitrator knows what they are responsible for. In any event, it probably can't hurt. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

It is a pain in the ass to get formal procedures changed. There is an internal procedures page: I see 0 reason not to use it if you want to clarify what the role of this arbitrator is. Izno (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

On top of that, this doesn't actually change the status quo much if at all. It is almost entirely a role definition for an internal matter, given "we can make an arb a CA, but we don't have to have one" in it's "from time to time" clause. This just looks like noise to anyone reading ARBPRO who isn't on ArbCom: the public doesn't need to know this arb even exists, though they might commonly be the one responding to emails so they might get a sense there is such an arb. Izno (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

While I appreciate that some functionaries are open to volunteering for this role, this ~~borders on~~ is a part-time secretarial job and ought to be compensated as such. The correspondence clerks option combined with WMF throwing some grant money towards compensation would be my ideal. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this suggestion – I've added motion 4 to address this suggestion. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

In the first motion the word "users" in "The Committee shall establish a process to allow users to, in unusual circumstances" is confusing, it should probably be "editors". In the first and second motions, it should probably be explicit whether correspondence clerks/support staff are required, permitted or prohibited to:

Share statistical information publicly
Share status information (publicly or privately) with correspondents who wish to know the status of their request.
Share status information (publicly or privately) about the status of a specific request with someone other than the correspondent.
For this I'm thinking of scenarios like where e.g. an editor publicly says they emailed the Committee about something a while ago, and one or more other editors asks what is happening with it.

I think my preference would be for 1 or 2, as these seem likely to be the more reliable. Neither option precludes there also being a coordinating arbitrator doing some of the tasks as well. Thryduulf (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for these suggestions. I've changed "users" to "editors". The way I'm intending these motions to be read, correspondence clerks or staff assistants should only disclose information as directed by the committee. I think the details of which information should be shared upon whose request in routine cases could be decided later by the committee, with the default being "ask ArbCom before disclosing until the committee decides to approve routine disclosures in certain cases", because it's probably hard to know in advance which categories will be important to allow. I'm open to including more detail if you think that's important to include at this stage, though, and I'd welcome hearing why if so. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I see your point, but I think it worth clarifying certain things in advance before they become an issue to avoid unrealistic or mistaken expectations of the c-clerks by the community. Point 1 doesn't need to be specified in advance, maybe something like "communicating information publicly as directed by the Committee" would be useful to say in terms of expectation management or maybe it's still to specific? I can see both sides of that.

Point 2 I think is worth establishing quickly and while it is on people's minds. Waiting for the committee to make up its mind before knowing whether they can give a full response to a correspondent about this would be unfair to both the correspondent and clerk I think. This doesn't necessarily have to be before adoption, but if not it needs to be very soon afterwards.

Point 3 is similar, but c-clerks and community members knowing exactly what can and cannot be shared, and especially being able to point to something in writing about what cannot be said publicly, has the potential to reduce drama e.g. if there is another situation similar to Billed Mammal's recent case request. Thryduulf (talk) 19:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

What justification is there for the WMF to spend a single additional dollar on the workload of a project-specific committee whose workload is now demonstrably smaller than at any time in its history? (Noting here that there is a real dollar-cost to the support already being given by WMF, such as the monthly Arbcom/T&S calls that often result in the WMF accepting requests for certain activities.) And anyone who is being paid by the WMF is responsible to the WMF as the employer, not to English Misplaced Pages Arbcom.

I think Arbcom is perhaps not telling the community some very basic facts that are leading to their efforts to find someone to take responsibility for its organization, which might include "we have too many members who aren't pulling their weight" or "we have too many members who, for various reasons that don't have to do with Misplaced Pages, are inactive", or "we have some tasks that nobody really wants to do". There's no indication that any of these solutions would solve these kinds of problems, and I think that all of these issues are factors that are clearly visible to those who follow Arbcom on even an occasional basis. Arbitrators who are inactive for their own reasons aren't going to become more active because someone's organizing their mail. Arbitrators who don't care enough to vote on certain things aren't any more likely to vote if someone is reminding them to vote in a non-public forum; there's no additional peer pressure or public guilt-tripping. And if Arbcom continues to have tasks that nobody really wants to do, divest those tasks. Arbcom has successfully done that with a large number of tasks that were once its responsibility.

I think you can do a much better job of making your case. Risker (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a need to do something as poor communication and extremely slow replies, if replies are made at all, has been an ongoing issue for the committee for some time. However I agree that asking the foundation to pay someone to do it is going too far. The point that if you are paid by the foundation, you work for them and not en.wp or arbcom is a compelling one. There's also a slippery slope argument to be made in that if we're paying these people, shouldn't we pay the committee? If we're paying the committee, shouldn't we pay the arbitration clerks....and so on. Just Step Sideways 20:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I fully share Risker's concern about a paid WMF staffer who, no matter how well-intentioned, will be answerable to the WMF and not ARBCOM. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

The 2023-2024 committee is much more middle aged and has less university students and retirees, who oftentimes have more free time, than the 2016-2017 committee. -- Guerillero 08:56, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems to me that the issue of there often being some Committee members who, for whatever reason, are not "pulling their weight", is at the core of the problem to be addressed here. Because this happens "behind the scenes", the community has no way to hold anyone accountable in elections, and because of human nature and the understandable desire to maintain a collegial atmosphere within the Committee, I don't really expect any members to call out a colleague in public. I suppose there could even be a question of what happens if whoever might be filling the role proposed here nudges a member to act, but the member just disregards that. It's difficult to see how to make it enforceable. I don't have any real solutions, but this strikes me as central to the problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I think this is largely correct. I was reluctant on the committee to even note this committee's inactivity problem (worst of any 15-member arbcom ever), even though it was based on a metric that is public, when I was still on the committee. And it gets further complicated by the fact that some people not visibly active in public more than pull their weight behind the scenes - the testimonials Maxim received when running for re-election being a prime example. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

During my first term it was Roger Davies. He was barely a presence on-wiki but he kept the whole committee on point and up-to-date about what was pending. Trypto is right that it isn't enforceable, it is more a matter of applying pressure to either do the job or move oneself to the inactive list.

I also think the committee can and should be more proactive about declaring other arbs inactive even when they are otherwise present on-wiki or on the mailing list" That would probably require a procedures change, but I think it would make sense. If there is a case request, proposed decision, or other matter that requires a vote before the committee and an arb doesn't comment on it for ten days or more, they clearly don't have the time and/or inclination to do so and should be declared inactive on that matter so that their lack of action does not further delay the matter. It would be nice if they would just do so themselves, or just vote "abstain" on everything, which only takes a few minutes, but it seems it has not been happening in practice. Just Step Sideways 00:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

And Roger was a pensioner which kinda proves my point -- Guerillero 08:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Roger may have been a pensioner at the end of his time on the committee (7 years), but he certainly wasn't at the beginning of his term. He was co-ordinating arbitrator for a lot of that time, and did a good job without a single bit of extra software. The problem with that software is that people have to already be actively engaged to even contemplate using it. My sense is that the real issue here is the lack of engagement (whether periodic or chronic) on the part of many of the arbitrators. People who are inactive on Arbcom tasks aren't going to be active on any tasks, including reading emails asking them to do things or special software sending alerts. Simply put, if people aren't going to put Arbcom as their primary Misplaced Pages activity for the next two years, keeping in mind other life events that will likely take them away, they should not run in the first place. Yes, unexpected things happen. But I think a lot of the inactivity we've seen in the last few years involved some predictable absences that the arbs knew about when they were candidates. (Examples I've seen myself: Oh, I have a big exam to write that needs months of study; oh, I have a major life event that will require a lot of planning; oh, I'm graduating and will have to find a job.) No, I don't expect people to reveal this kind of information about themselves; yes, I do expect them to refrain from volunteering for roles that they can reasonably foresee they will have difficulty fulfilling. Risker (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I might as well ask a hard question. Is there a way to make public enough information for the community to be able to evaluate ArbCom candidates for (re)election, in terms of behind-the-scenes inactivity? If individual Arbs were to make public comments, that would do it, but it would also potentially be very contentious and could reduce effectiveness instead of improving it. Could ArbCom initiate a new process of posting onsite information about the processing of tasks, without revealing private information (such as: "Ban appeal 1", "Ban appeal 2", instead of "Ban appeal by "), and list those members who voted (perhaps without listing which way they voted)? Maybe do that monthly, and include all tasks that had not yet gotten a quorum. Yes, I know that's difficult. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I question an answer to the problem of "we're having trouble finding enough people to do the secretarial work we have already" being "let's create substantially more secretarial work" even accepting the premise that people would then get voted off if they didn't pull their weight. While I think that premise is correct, what this system would also encourage - even more than it already exists - is an incentive to just go along with whatever the first person (or the person who has clearly done the most homework) says. And that defeats the purpose of having a committee made up of individual thinkers. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair point. I'll admit that, even from the outside, I sometimes see members who appear to wait to see which way the wind is blowing before voting on proposed decisions. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

That's something that's hard to know or verify, even for the other arbs. The arbs only know what the other arbs tell them, and I've never seen anyone admit to that. Just Step Sideways 23:44, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the timing for this is wrong. The committee is about to have between 6 and 9 new members (depending on whether Guerillero, Eek, and Primefac get re-elected). In addition it seems likely that some number of former arbs are about to rejoin the committee. This committee - basically the committee with the worst amount of active membership of any 15 member committee ever - seems like precisely the wrong one to be making large changes to ongoing workflows in December. Izno's idea of an easier to try and easier to change/abandon internal procedure for the coordinating arb feels like something appropriate to try now. The rest feel like it should be the prerogative of the new committee to decide among (or perhaps do a different change altogether). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:44, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Kevin can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed he was doing this now because he will not be on the committee a month from now.

That being said it could be deliberately held over, or conversely, possibly fall victim to the inactivity you mention and still be here for the new committee to decide. Just Step Sideways 23:12, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Since WP:ACE2024 elections are currently taking place it makes sense to have the incoming arbitrators weigh in on changes like this. They are the ones that will be affected by any of these motions passing rather than the outgoing arbitrators. - Aoidh (talk) 00:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh I assumed that's why he was doing it also. I am also assuming he's doing it to try and set up the future committees for success. That doesn't change my point about why this is the wrong time and why a different way of trying the coordinator role (if it has support) would be better. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Regarding "timing is wrong": I think you both would agree that these are a long time coming – we have been working on these and related ideas for years (I ran on a related idea in 2022). I do think there's never quite a good time. Very plausibly, the first half of the year is out because the new arbs will need that time to learn how the processes work and think about what kinds of things should be changed vs. kept the same. And then it might be another few months as the new ArbCom experiments with less-consequential changes like the ones laid about at the top: technological solutions, trying new ways of tracking stuff, etc., before being confident in the need for something like set out above. And then things get busy for other reasons; there will be weeks or even occasionally months when the whole committee is overtaken by some urgent situation. I've experienced a broadly similar dynamic a few times now; this is all to say that there's just not much time or space in the agenda for this kind of stuff in a one-year cycle, which would be a shame because I do think this is important to take on.
I do think that it should be the aspiration of every year's committee to leave the succeeding committee some improvements in the functioning of the committee based on lessons learned that year, so it would be nice to leave the next committee with this. That said, if arbitrators do feel that we should hold this over to the new committee, I'm not really in a position to object – as JSS says, this is my last year on the committee, so it's not like this will benefit me. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it's entirely possible for the new committee to have a sense of what it wants workload wise by February-April and so it's wrong to just rule out the first half of the year. By the end of the first six months of the year that you and I started (and which JSS was a sitting member on) we'd made a number of changes to how things were done. Off the top of my head I can name the structure of cases and doing quarterly reports of private appeals as two but there were others. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Here's what I'll leave you with overall. What you may see as a downside – these proposals being voted on relatively late in the year – I see as a significant possible upside. Members of this committee are able to draw on at least eleven months' experience as arbitrators in deciding what is working well and what might warrant change – experience which is important in determining what kinds of processes and systems lead to effective and ineffective outcomes. That experience is important: Although I have served on ArbCom for four years and before that served as an ArbCom clerk for almost six years, I still learn more every year about what makes this committee click. If what really concerns you is locking in the new committee to a particular path, as I wrote above, I'm very open to structuring this as a trial run that will end of its own accord unless the committee takes action to make it permanent. This would ensure that the new committee retains full control over whether to continue, discontinue, or adapt these changes. But in my book, it does not make sense to wait. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

As a 3-term former arb and a 3-term current ombuds commissioner, I've had experience of about a dozen Wikimedia committee "new intakes". I am quite convinced that these proposals are correctly timed. Process changes are better put in place prior to new appointees joining, so that they are not joining at a moment of upheaval. Doing them late in the day is not objectionable and momentum often comes at the end of term. If the changes end up not working (doubtful), the new committee would just vote to tweak the process or go back. I simply do not understand the benefit of deferring proposals into a new year, adding more work to the next year's committee. That surely affects the enthusiasm and goodwill of new members. As for the point that the '24 committee is understaffed and prone to indecision: argumentum ad hominem. If Kevin's proposals work, they work. If anything, it might be more difficult to agree administrative reforms when the committee is back at full staff. arcticocean ■ 15:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
If these pass now you will have new members join at a moment of upheaval as anything proposed here will still be in its infancy when the new members join (even if we pretend the new members are joining Jan 1 rather than much sooner given that results are in and new members tend to be added to the list once the right boxes are checked). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
You're right. And it's important to be realistic: any proposal would be under implementation for several months, so say from December through February. Would that be so bad? Any change will disrupt, in the sense that a few people need to spend time implementing it and everyone else needs to learn the new process. But waiting until later in the year causes even more disruption: members have to first learn an 'old' process and then learn the changes you're making to it… New member enthusiasm is also a keen force that could help to push through the changes. arcticocean ■ 16:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
I think new member enthusiasm is part of why I think this lame duck hobbled committee is the wrong one to do it. I have high hopes for next year's group and think they would be in a better place to come up with the right solution for them. And as I noted to Kevin above this isn't hypothetical - the year we both started as arbs we made a lot of process and procedure changes in the first six months. It was a great thing to funnel that new arb energy into because I was bought into what we were doing rather than trying to make something work that I had no say in and that the existing members had no experience with. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
While I think a solution such as adopting ZenDesk is something that could face objections, personally I think the idea of having someone track a list of work items for a committee is a pretty standard way of working (including pushing for timely resolution, something that really needs a person, not just a program). From an outsider's perspective, it's something I'd expect. It doesn't matter to non-arbitrators who does the tracking, so the committee should feel free to change that decision internally as often as it feels is effective. I'd rather there be a coordinating arbitrator in place in the interim until another solution is implemented, than have no one tracking work items in the meantime. isaacl (talk) 19:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Just to double check that I'm reading motion 1 correctly, it would still be possible to email the original list (for arbitrators only) if, for example, you were raising a concern about something the correspondence clerks should not be privy to (ie: misuse of tools by a functionary), correct? Granted, I think motion 3 is probably the simpler option here, but in the event motion 1 passes, is the understanding I wrote out accurate? EggRoll97 02:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@EggRoll97 Yes, but probably only after an additional step. The penultimate paragraph of motions 1 and 2 says The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks . No details are given about what this process would be, but one possibility would I guess be something like contacting an individual arbitrator outlining clearly why you think the c-clerks should not be privy to whatever it is. If they agree they'll tell you how to submit your evidence (maybe they'll add your email address to a temporary whitelist). Thryduulf (talk) 03:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

In my experience working on committees and for non-profits, typically management is much more open to offering money for software solutions that they are told can resolve a problem than agreeing to pay additional compensation for new personnel. Are you sure there isn't some tracking solution that could resolve some of these problems? Liz 07:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

In our tentative discussions with WMF, it sounded like it would be much more plausible to get a 0.1-0.2 FTE of staffer time than it would to get us 15 ZenDesk licenses, which was also somewhat surprising to me. That wasn't a firm response – if we went back and said we really need this, I'm guessing it'd be plausible. And we've never asked about compensating c-clerks – that was an idea that came from Voorts's comment above, and I proposed it for discussion, not because I necessarily support it but because I think it's worth discussion, and I certainly don't think it's integral to the c-clerk proposal. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 15:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, offering compensation for on-wiki tasks would be breaking new ground for the project. I do wonder though about the possibility of securing former arbitrators for these correspondent clerks' positions. It sounds like all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results. I don't know if we'd have many interested and eligible parties. How many clerks would you think would be necessary? One? Or 3 or 4? Liz 21:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, these are great questions. Responses to your points:

On volunteers: As I wrote above, four functionaries (including three former arbs) expressed initial-stage interest when this was floated when I consulted functionaries – which is great and was a bit unexpected, and which is why I wrote it up this way. Arbitrators will know that my initial plan from previous months/years did not involve limiting this to functionaries, to have a broader pool of applicants. But since we do have several interested functs, and they are already trusted to hold NDA'd private information (especially the former arbs who have previously been elected to access to this very list), I thought this would be a good way to make this a more uncontroversial proposal.
How many to appoint? I imagine one or two if it was up to me. One would be ideal (I think it's like 30 minutes of work per day ish, max), but two for redundancy might make a lot of sense. I don't think it's all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results – because the c-clerk would be responsible for tracking matters, not actually attempting to resolve them, that's a lot less work than serving as an arb. It does require more consistency than most arbs have to put in, though.
On compensating: Yeah, I'm not sure I'll end up supporting the idea, but I don't think it's unprecedented in the sense that you're thinking. Correspondence clerks aren't editing; none of the tasks listed in the motion require on-wiki edits. And there are plenty of WMF grants that have gone to off-wiki work for the benefit of projects; the first example I could think of was m:Grants:Programs/Wikimedia Community Fund/Rapid Fund/UTRS User Experience Development (ID: 22215192) but I know there are many.

Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I am quite confused, I often read arbs saying most of ArbCom work is behind-the-scenes work. But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work? If so, the solution here is that more arbs should simply pull their weight, which Motion 3 helps. I don't think WMF would pay someone to work 30 minutes a day either. Kenneth Kho (talk) 07:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work?. No, the actual work takes a lot more time and effort because each arb has to read, understand and form opinions on many different things, and the committee needs to discuss most of those things, which will often re-reading and re-evaluating based on the points raised. Then in many cases there needs to be a vote. What the "one-person, 30 minutes a day" is referring to is just the meta of what tasks are open, what the current status of it is, who needs to opine on it, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 11:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I realized I misunderstood it. I see that this is a relatively lightweight proposal, perhaps it could work but it probably won't help much either.

@L235 I have been thinking of splitting ArbCom into Public ArbCom and Private ArbCom. I see Public ArbCom as being able to function without the tools as @Worm That Turned advocated, focused more on complex dispute resolution. I see Private ArbCom as high-trust roles with NDAs, privy to WMF and overseeing Public ArbCom. Both ArbComs are elected separately as 15-members bodies, and both will be left with about half the current authority and responsibility. Kenneth Kho (talk) 01:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Thryduulf is right; I think Kevin meant that the tracking itself might be a 30 minute a day activity. But it has to happen consistently, and with a high catch rate. It also has to happen on top of our usual Arb work, which for me already averages a good ten hours a week, but can be more than twenty hours in the busy times. And I, like the other arbs, already have a full time job and a life outside Misplaced Pages. I don't like the idea of splitting ArbCom in twain, nor do I think it could be achieved. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, having someone managing the work could really help smooth things out. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

My first thought is that cleanly splitting arbcom would be very difficult. For example what happens if there is an open public case and two-thirds of the way through the evidence phase someone discovers and wishes to submit private evidence? Thryduulf (talk) 02:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, the split won't be entirely clean. I'm thinking Public ArbCom would narrowly remand part of the case to Private ArbCom if it finds that the private evidence is likely to materially affect the outcome. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:34, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

How will public know whether the private evidence will materially affect the outcome without seeing the private evidence? Secondly, how will private arbcom determine whether it materially affects the outcome without reviewing all the public evidence and thus duplicating public arbcom's work (and thus also negating the workload benefits of the split)? What happens if public and private arbcom come to different conclusions about the same public evidence? Thryduulf (talk) 11:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

You raised good points that I did not address. I think that a way to do this would be to follow how Oversighters have the authority to override Admins that they use sparingly. Private ArbCom could have the right to receive any private evidence regarding an ongoing case on Public ArbCom, and Private ArbCom will have discretions to override Public ArbCom remedies without explanation other than something like "per private evidence". Private ArbCom would need to familiarize themselves with the case a bit, but this is mitigated by the fact that they only concerned with the narrow parts. Private ArbCom could have the authority to take the whole Public ArbCom case private if it deems that private evidence affect many parties. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

12 candidates for 9 open seats is sufficient. But it hardly suggests we have so many people that we could support 30 people (even presuming some additional people would run under the split). Further, what happens behind the scenes already strains the trust of the community. But at least the community can see the public actions as a reminder of "well this person hasn't lost it completely while on ArbCom". I think it would be much harder to sustain trust under this split. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I honestly like the size of 12-member committee, too many proverbial cooks spoil the proverbial broth. I did think about the trust aspect, as the community has been holding ArbCom under scrutiny, but at the same time I consider that the community has been collegial with Bureaucrats, Checkusers, Oversighters. Private ArbCom would be far less visible, with Public ArbCom likely taking the heat for contentious decisions. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:40, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with L235 regarding whether this is all the work and none of the authority: it does not come with all the responsibility that being an Arb comes with either. This role does not need to respond to material questions or concerns about arbitration matters and does not need to read and weigh the voluminous case work to come to a final decision. The c-clerk will need to keep up on emails and will probably need to have an idea of what's going on in public matters, but that was definitely not the bulk of the (stressful?) work of an arbitrator. Izno (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@Liz well that's what I thought. I figured that ZenDesk was the winningest solution, until the Foundation made it seem like ZenDesk licenses were printed on gold bars. We did do some back of the envelope calculations, and it is decidedly expensive. Still...I have a hard time believing those ZenDesk licenses really cost more than all that staff time. I think we'll have to do some more convincing of the Foundation on that front, or implement a different solution. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I touched upon the idea of using former arbitrators to do administrative tasks on the arbitration committee talk page, and am also pleasantly surprised to hear there is some interest. I think this approach may be the most expeditious way to put something in place at least for the interim. (On a side note, I urge people not to let the term "c-clerk" catch on. It sounds like stuttering, or someone not good enough to be an A-level clerk. More importantly, it would be quite an obscure jargon term.) isaacl (talk) 23:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.

Something I raised in the functionary discussion was that this doesn't make sense to me. What is the basis for this split here? Izno (talk) 00:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I assumed it was so that the clerks would only see the incoming email and not be privy to the entire commitee's comments on the matter. While all functionaries and arbs sign the same NDA, operating on a need to know basis is not at all uncommon in groups that deal with sensitive information. When I worked for the census we had to clear our debriefing room of literally everything because it was being used the next day by higher-ups from Washington who were visiting. They outranked all of us by several orders of mgnitude, but they had no reason to be looking at the non-anonymized personal data we had lying all over the place.

Conversely it would spare the clerks from having their inboxes flooded by every single arb comment, which as you know can be quite voluminous. Just Step Sideways 00:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

And it would also prevent them from seeing information related to themselves or something they should actively recuse on. Thryduulf (talk) 01:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

This suggested rationale doesn't hold water: someone with an issue with a c-clerk or where they may need to recuse should just follow the normal process for an issue with an arb: to whit, kicking off arbcom-b for a private discussion. Izno (talk) 01:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking of material from before they were appointed, e.g. if there was a discussion involving the actions of user:Example in November and they become a c-clerk in December, they shouldn't be able to see the discussion even if the only comments were that the allegations against them are obviously ludicrous. I appreciate I didn't make this clear though. Thryduulf (talk) 02:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Making arbcom-en a "firewall" from the arb deliberations would inhibit the c-clerk from performing the duties listed in the motion. I cannot see how it would be workable for them to remind arbs to do the thing the electorate voluntold them to do if the c-clerk cannot see whether they have done those things (e.g. coming to a conclusion on an appeal), and would add to the overhead of introducing this secretarial position (email comes in, c-clerk forwards to -internal, arbs discussion on -internal, come to conclusion, send an email back to -en, which the c-clerk then actions back to the user on arbcom-en). This suggested rationale also does not hold water to me. Izno (talk) 01:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Apologies – if this was the interpretation, that's bad drafting on my part. The sole intention is that the new correspondence clerks won't see the past arbcom-en archives, which were emails sent to the committee on the understanding that only arbitrators would see those emails. C clerks will see everything that's newly sent on arbcom-en, including all deliberations held on arbcom-en, with the exception of anything that is so sensitive that the committee feels the need to restrict discussion to arbitrators (this should be fairly uncommon but covers the recusal concern above in a similar way as discussions about arbs who recuse sometimes get moved to arbcom-en-b). The C clerks will need to be able to see deliberations to be able to track pending matters and ensure that balls aren't being dropped, which could not happen unless they had access to the discussions – this is a reasonable "need to know" because they are fulfilling a function that is hard to combine with serving as an active arbitrator. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, I clearly totally misread your intent there. I.... don't think I like the idea that unelected clerks can see everything the committee is doing. Just Step Sideways 03:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, I oppose splitting arbcom-en a second time -- Guerillero 10:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Regarding 1.4, I think arbcom-en and -c are good ones for a c-clerk to have access to. -b probably doesn't need access ever, as it's used exclusively for work with recusals attached to it, which should be small enough for ArbCom to manage itself in the addition of a c-clerk. (This comment in private elicited the slight rework L235 made to the motion.) Izno (talk) 06:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

What does this mean – when was the first time? arcticocean ■ 15:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@Arcticocean: In 2018, arbcom-l became arbcom-en and the archives are in two different places. -- Guerillero 18:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Appointing one of the sitting arbitrators as "Coordinating Arbitrator" (motion 3) would be my recommended first choice of solution. We had a Coordinating Arbitrator—a carefully chosen title, as opposed to something like "Chair"—for a few years some time ago. It worked well, although it was not a panacea, and I frankly don't recollect why the coordinator role was dropped at some point. If there is a concern about over-reliance or over-burden on any one person, the role could rotate periodically (although I would suggest a six-month term to avoid too much time being spent on the mechanics of selecting someone and transitioning from one coordinator to the next). At any given time there should be at least one person on a 15-member Committee with the time and the skill-set to do the necessary record-keeping and nudging in addition to arbitrating, and this solution would avoid the complications associated with bringing another person onto the mailing list. I think there would be little community appetite for involving a WMF staff member (even one who is or was also an active Wikipedian) in the Committee's business; and if we are going to set the precedent of paying someone to handle tasks formerly handled by volunteers, with all due respect to the importance of ArbCom this is not where I would start. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. Regarding little community appetite – that is precisely why we are inviting community input here on this page, as one way to assess how the community feels about the various options. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I also like the idea of an arb or two taking on this role more than another layer of clerks. I'm sure former arbs would be great at it but the committee needs to handle its own internal business. Just Step Sideways 03:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it is ideal for the arbitration committee to track its own work items and prompt its members for timely action, and may have written this some time ago on-wiki. However... years have passed now, and the arbitration committee elections aren't well-suited to selecting arbitrators with the requisite skill set (even if recruitment efforts were made, the community can only go by the assurance of the candidate regarding the skills they possess and the time they have available). So I think it's worth looking at the option of keeping an arbitrator involved in an emeritus position if they have shown the aptitude and availability to help with administration. This could be an interim approach, until another solution is in place (maybe there can be more targeted recruiting of specific editors who, by their ongoing Misplaced Pages work, have demonstrated availability and tracking ability). isaacl (talk) 18:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

2 and 4 don't seem like very good ideas to me. For 2, I think we need to maintain a firm distinction between community and WMF entities, and not do anything that even looks like blending them together. For 4, every time you involve money in something, you multiply your potential problems by a factor of at least ten (and why should that person get paid, when other people who contribute just as much time doing other things don't, and when, for that matter, even the arbs themselves don't?). For 1, I could see that being a good idea, to take some clerical/"grunt work" load off of ArbCom and give them more time for, well, actually arbitrating, and functionaries will all already have signed the NDA. I don't have any problem with 3, but don't see why ArbCom can't just do it if they want to; all the arbs already have access to the information in question so it's not like someone is being approved to see it who can't already. Seraphimblade 01:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@CaptainEek: Following up on your comments on motion 1, depending on which aspect of the proposed job one wanted to emphasize, you could also consider "amanuensis," "registrar," or "receptionist." (The best on-wiki title in my opinion, though we now are used to it so the irony is lost, will always be "bureaucrat"; I wonder who first came up with that one.) Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Or "cat-herder". --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Following parliamentary tradition, perhaps "whip". (Less whimsically: "recording secretary".) isaacl (talk) 00:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad:, if memory serves @Keegan: knows who came up with it, and as I recall the story was that they wanted to come up with the most boring, unappealing name they could so not too many people would be applying for it all the time. Just Step Sideways 05:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

So, just to usher in a topic-specific discussion because it has been alluded to many times without specifics being given, what was the unofficial position of ArbCom coordinator like? Who held this role? How did it function? Were other arbitrators happy with it? Was the Coordinator given time off from other arbitrator responsibilities? I assume this happened when an arbitrator just assumed the role but did it have a more formal origin? Did it end because no one wanted to pick up the responsibility? Questions, questions. Liz 06:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I cannot speak for anything but my term. I performed this role for about 1.5 years of the 2 I was on the committee. To borrow an email I sent not long before I stepped off that touches on the topics in this whole set of motions (yes, this discussion isn't new):

Daily, ~20 minutes: went into the list software and tagged the day's incoming new email chains with a label (think "upe", "duplicate", etc).
Daily, ~10 minutes: took care of any filtered emails on the list (spam and not-spam).
Monthly, 1-2 hours: trawled the specific categories of tags since the beginning of the month to add to an arbwiki page for tracking for "needs to get done". Did the inverse also (removed stuff from tracking that seemed either Done or Stale).
Monthly, 15 minutes to prep: sent an email with a direct list of the open appeals and a reminder about the "needs doing" stuff (and a few months I highlighted a topic or two that were easy wins). This built off the daily work in a way that would be a long time if it were all done monthly instead of daily.

I was also an appeals focused admin, which had further overhead here that I would probably put in the responsibility of this kind of arb. Other types of arbs probably had similar things they would have wanted to do this direction but I saw very little of such. Daily for this effort, probably another 15 minutes or so:

I copy-pasted appeal metadata from new appeals email to arbwiki
Started countdown timers for appeals appearing to be at consensus
Sent "easy" boilerplate emails e.g. "we got this appeal, we may be in touch" or "no way Jose you already appealed a month ago"
Sent results for the easy appeals post-countdown timer and filled in relevant metadata (easy appeals here usually translated to "declined" since this was the quick-n-easy daily work frame, not the long-or-hard daily work frame)

(End extract from referenced email.) This second set is now probably a much-much lighter workload with the shedding of most CU appeals this year (which was 70% of the appeals by count during my term), and I can't say how much of this second group would be in the set of duties depending on which motion is decided above (or if even none of the motions are favored by the committee - you can see I've advocated for privately documenting the efforts of coordinating arbs rather than publicly documenting them regarding 3, and it wouldn't take much to get me to advocate against 2 and 4, I just know others can come to the right-ish conclusion on those two already; I'm pretty neutral on 1).

Based on the feedback I got as I was going out the door, it was appreciated. I did see some feedback that this version of the role was insufficiently personal to each arb. The tradeoff for doing something more personalized to each other arb is either time or software (i.e. money). I did sometimes occasionally call out when other members had not yet chimed in on discussions. That was ad hoc and mostly focused on onwiki matters (case votes particularly), but occasionally I had to name names when doing appeals work because the arbs getting to the appeal first were split. In general the rest of the committee didn't name names (which touches on some discussion above). I think some arbs appreciated seeing their name in an email when they were needed.

I was provided no formal relief from other matters. But as I discussed with one arb during one of the stressful cases of the term, I did provide relief informally for the duration of that case to that person for the stuff I was interested in, so I assume that either I in fact had no relief from other matters, or that I had relief but didn't know it (and just didn't ask for anyone else to do it - since I like to think I had it well enough in hand). :-) The committee is a team effort and not everyone on the team has the same skills, desire, or time to see to all other matters. (The probing above about arbs being insufficiently active is a worthwhile probe, to be certain.) To go further though, I definitely volunteered to do this work. Was it necessary work? I think so. I do not know what would have happened if I had not been doing it. (We managed to hit only one public snag related to timeliness during my term, which I count as a win; opinions may differ.)

There is no formal origin to the role that I know of. Someone else with longer committee-memory would have to answer whether all/recent committees have had this type, and who they were, and why if not.

I don't know how much of what I did lines up with what L235 had in mind proposing these motions. I do not think the work I did covers everything listed in the motions laid out. (I don't particularly need clarification on the point - it's a matter that will fall out in post-motion discussion.) Izno (talk) 08:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The original announcement of the Coordinating Arbitrator position was here. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Archive zero: I love it! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Interestingly, that announcement also repeated the announcement at the top of the archive page that a departing arbitrator continued to assist the committee by co-ordinating the mailing list: acknowledging incoming emails and responding to senders with questions about them, and tracking issues to ensure they are resolved. So both a co-ordinator (plus a deputy!) and an arbitrator emeritus. isaacl (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

former arbitrator will continue to coordinate the ArbCom mailing list. was probably a statement along the lines of "knows how to deal with Mailman". And I think you're getting that role mixed up with the actual person doing the work management: the Arbitration Committee has decided to appoint one of its sitting arbitrators to act as coordinator (emphasis mine). Izno (talk) 23:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Obviously I have no personal knowledge of what ended up happening. I just listed the responsibilities as described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 0 § Improving ArbCom co-ordination. I'm not sure what I'm getting mixed up; all I said is that a co-ordinator and deputy were appointed, and that a former arbitrator was said to be co-ordinating the mailing list. It's certainly possible the split of duties changed from the first post in the archive. isaacl (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see that now. Izno (talk) 00:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I think I agree with Izno regarding the coordinating arbitrator role. There's no problem letting the community that the role exists, but I don't think it's necessary for the role's responsibilities to be part of the public-facing guarantees being made to the community. If the role needs to expand, shrink, split into multiple roles, or otherwise change, the committee should feel free to just do it as needed. The committee has the flexibility to organize itself as it best sees fit. isaacl (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I think this is the right approach. It doesn't need to be advertised who is coordinating activity on the mailing list, it just needs to get done. If it takes two people, fine, if they do it for six months and say they want out of the role, ask somebody else to do it. And so on. Just Step Sideways 23:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

For instance, I don't think it's necessary to codify whether or not the coordinating arbitrator role is permanent. Just put a task on the schedule to review how the role is working out in nine months, and then modify the procedure accordingly as desired. isaacl (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

One exception: the first bullet point regarding responding to communications and assigning a tracking identifier does involve the committee's interactions with the community. I feel, though, that for flexibility these guarantees can be made without codifying who does them, from the community's point of view. (It's fine of course to make them part of the coordinating arbitrator's tasks.) isaacl (talk) 23:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Izno, this actually sounds like a helluva lot of work, maybe not minute-wise but mental, keeping track of everything so requests don't fall through the cracks. I think anyone assuming this role should get a break from, say, drafting ARBCOM cases if nothing else. Liz 03:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

It might be a lot of work, but it wasn't the bulk of the work, even for the work that I was doing. There was a lot more steps to being the appeal-focused admin above. Izno (talk) 04:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

You made me laugh, Liz. That sounds like my normal start-of-day routine, to be accompanied by a cup of tea and, perhaps, a small breakfast. I'd expect most arbitrators to be reading the mail on a daily basis, unless they are inactive for some reason; the difference here is the tagging/flagging of messages and clearing the filters, which probably adds about 10-12 minutes. I'll simply say that any arb who isn't prepared to spend 30-45 minutes/day reading emails probably shouldn't be an arb. That's certainly a key part of the role. Risker (talk) 04:43, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

+1. In my thoughts to potential candidates I said an hour a day for emails but that included far more appeals than the committee gets now. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:47, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Never mind reading emails, the bulk of my private ArbCom time was spent on processing them: doing checks, reporting results, and otherwise responding to other work. You can get away with just reading internal emails, but it's going to surprise your fellow arbs if you don't pipe up with some rational thought when you see the committee thinking about something personally objectionable and the first time they hear about it is when motions have been posted and are waiting for votes. Izno (talk) 06:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Right now, I check my email account about once a week. I guess that will change if I'm elected to the committee. It would have helped to hear all of these details before the election. Liz 08:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

My hour included time to respond to emails, though I also note you're not going particularly deep on anything with that time (at least when ArbCom had more appeals). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:26, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Requests for enforcement

Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important informationShortcuts

Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change, or is no longer an administrator; or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Misplaced Pages and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Arbitration enforcement archives

1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20
21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	34	35	36	37	38	39	40
41	42	43	44	45	46	47	48	49	50	51	52	53	54	55	56	57	58	59	60
61	62	63	64	65	66	67	68	69	70	71	72	73	74	75	76	77	78	79	80
81	82	83	84	85	86	87	88	89	90	91	92	93	94	95	96	97	98	99	100
101	102	103	104	105	106	107	108	109	110	111	112	113	114	115	116	117	118	119	120
121	122	123	124	125	126	127	128	129	130	131	132	133	134	135	136	137	138	139	140
141	142	143	144	145	146	147	148	149	150	151	152	153	154	155	156	157	158	159	160
161	162	163	164	165	166	167	168	169	170	171	172	173	174	175	176	177	178	179	180
181	182	183	184	185	186	187	188	189	190	191	192	193	194	195	196	197	198	199	200
201	202	203	204	205	206	207	208	209	210	211	212	213	214	215	216	217	218	219	220
221	222	223	224	225	226	227	228	229	230	231	232	233	234	235	236	237	238	239	240
241	242	243	244	245	246	247	248	249	250	251	252	253	254	255	256	257	258	259	260
261	262	263	264	265	266	267	268	269	270	271	272	273	274	275	276	277	278	279	280
281	282	283	284	285	286	287	288	289	290	291	292	293	294	295	296	297	298	299	300
301	302	303	304	305	306	307	308	309	310	311	312	313	314	315	316	317	318	319	320
321	322	323	324	325	326	327	328	329	330	331	332	333	334	335	336	337	338	339	340
341	342	343	344	345	346

Ethiopian Epic

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Ethiopian Epic

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Tinynanorobots (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Ethiopian Epic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

November 14th created during the Yasuke case and went active when it ended. First 11 edits were to Government of Japan. In one case three edits were used to write one sentence.
November 12 Manually reverted the lead back to how it was in September.
November 16 Falsely Claimed cited material was OR. (G
November 24 Falsely Claimed cited material was unsourced
November 24 It took an ANI report to get him to use the article talk page. His defense was accusations and denial.
November 23 He reverted to a version that went against consensus established on the talk page and contained a falsely sourced quote.
November 25 Engages in sealioning
November 29 Removes a well sourced line from Yasuke as well as reverted an edit that was the result of BRD. He has now started disputes with me on all three Yasuke related articles.
November 30 starts disputing a new section of
December 2 Brought again to ANI, he claims that I didn't get consensus for changes, even though I had discussed them on talk prior to making them.
December 4 He keeps mentioning ONUS, and asking me to discuss it, in response to me discussing.
December 9 Used a non-controversial revert to hide his edit warring.
December 11 did the same thing on List of foreign-born samurai in Japan.
December 11 He also repeatedly complains that he doesn't like the definition because it is vague and claims that his preferred version is "status quo"

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Date Explanation
Date Explanation

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics): [

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on December 1 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I am not sure if this is actually a AE matter, but was told to go here by multiple admins. The biggest issue is the Editing against consensus on accompanied by bludgeoning. However, there are signs of bad faith editing on all three pages where I have interacted with EE. It could also be a CIR issue or it could be some sort of harassment. I don't know. I just know that EE first avoided providing clear reasons for reverting edits and has been trying to engage in Status Quo Stonewalling. He keeps citing Onus or Burden and asks me not to make a change until the discussion is over. Often, this doesn't make sense in context, because the change was in place. He has made false claims about sources and what they say. His editing on Yasuke is not so much a problem as the discussion which comes across as gaslighting.

@User:Red-tailed hawk, I am not an expert on proxies or socks. All the IPs have only posted on the one article and have advocated an odd definition for samurai, that doesn't apply to the article. All except the first one have just reverted. It is possible that this is just laziness, or lack of confidence in writing skills etc. After all, the false citation was added by another user and was just kept. I found the latest one the most suspect, in part because of it first reverting to the incorrect definition, before restoring most of the text and second because of falsely citing policy. I am not sure if they are proxies, but I hoped that someone here would have the expertise to know. I don't think the proxy evidence is the most important. EE is either acting in bad faith or has CIR problems. The later is possible, because he thanked City of Silver during ANI, although City of Silver has been the harshest critic of EE's behaviour towards me.

I think there should be some important context to the quote: "those who serve in close attendance to the nobility". The quote can be found in several books, on Samurai it is sourced to an article published in Black Belt Magazine in the 80s by William Scott Wilson, where he describes the origin of the word samurai. He is describing the early phases of its meaning in that quote, before it became to have martial connotations. It also refers to the time before 900. The earliest foreign samurai on the list was in the late 1500s. It also doesn't apply to most of the persons on the list. Finally, it is not mentioned in Vaporis's book, which EE keeps adding as the source. He hasn't even made the effort to copy the citation from Samurai.

@User:Eronymous

Not only did I have a dispute with Symphony Regalia about samurai being "retainers to lords", but also on Yasuke about "As a samurai" and on List of Foreign-born Samurai in Japan EE made the same reverts as SR. EE had with his first edit in all three articles continued a dispute that I had already had with SR.

@User:Ethiopian Epic I actually don't have a problem with you discussing things. Your talk page posts aren't really discussion though. Your main argument on all three pages has been a shifting of the burden of proof. You don't really discuss content and continually ask me not to make changes without discussing first, and then make changes yourself. I understand that your position is that your preferred version is the status quo. However, my edits regarding the definition on List of Foreign-born samurai in Japan , were discussed and consensus was clearly gotten. Similarly, my edits on Yasuke were discussed, and even though I didn't use the exact same version as Gitz said, Gitz had suggested using warrior instead of bushi, so I used samurai, because I thought it would be less controversial.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Ethiopian Epic

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ethiopian Epic

This is clear retaliatory filing because I recently didn't agree with Tinynanorobot's edits against RFC consensus, and because I made talk page sections on some recent edits.

@Eronymous That's not true and you are a very obvious alt account with only 26 edits. No one gave you a notification of this discussion and it's not on the Yasuke talk page. This suggests you are the sock puppet of someone here. Your post is also misleading and incorrect it wasn't an insertion. The line you are talking about in Samurai has been there for over 10 years and is normal. I know because I've read it before. Here is a version from 2017 that still has it. I don't understand why you are misrepresenting edits and using an alt account.

@Red-tailed hawk I think he is just fishing. That's why he removed his IP claims. Even his other diffs are just mislabeled regular behavior. It's amusing because Eronymous is the likely alt of Tinynanorobots or someone posting here. I think the way Tinynanorobots edits against clear consensus, skips discussion, and then files frivolous ANI/AE reports with misleading narrative like above is disruptive. Discussion is an easy solution and benefits everyone. I hope he will respect RFC consensus.

Statement by Relm

I am largely unfamiliar with the account in question, but I do frequently check Yasuke. I believe that EthiopianEpic has displayed a clear slant and battleground mindset in their editing in regards to the topic of Yasuke, but that their conduct on the Yasuke page itself so far has generally been in the ballpark of good faith edits. The revert on December 9th was justified, and their topic on November 29th is well within bounds (though I acknowledge that the background of their prior disputes on other pages with Tinynanorobots shows it may be edit warring) given that the two things being reverted was a change that seemed to skirt the prior RFC with agreement being given in a very non-direct way, and the other portion being an addition which had not been discussed on the talk page prior to its implementation (though previous discussions ered on the side of not including it). I am not accusing Tinynanorobots of any misconduct in any part of that either.

What I will note is that in addition to the sockpuppet IP allegations made by Tinynanorobots, I wanted to lodge that the posting style of EthiopianEpic, as well as their knowledge of much of the previous discussions on the page deep in the archive, led me to suspect that they were an alt of User:Symphony_Regalia. I never found anything conclusive. Relm (talk) 14:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Simonm223

These two editors have been tangling at WP:AN/I repeatedly. Last time they came there I said that this would likely continue until a third party intervened. And then the thread got archived with no action (see AN/I thread here) so I'm not surprised that the two of them are still tangling. There is evidence that both editors have engaged in a slow-motion edit war. Both have claimed the other is editing against consensus. Here I will say that it appears TinyNanoRobots is more correct than Ethiopian Epic. Furthermore, while neither editors' comportment has been stellar, as other editors have pointed out, it appears more that EE is following TNR about and giving them a hard time than the alternate. . In the linked AN/I case (above) you'll note EE attempted a boomerang on TNR and was not well-received for the effort.

Frankly my view is that both editors are not editing to the best standards of Misplaced Pages but there is definitely a more disruptive member of this duo and that is Ethiopian Epic. I think it would probably cut down on the noise considerably if they were encouraged to find somewhere to edit which was not a CTOP subject and if they were encouraged to leave TNR alone. Simonm223 (talk) 18:05, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Eronymous

Similar to Relm I check on the Yasuke page every so often, and it seems very likely given the evidence that User:Ethiopian Epic is an alt of User:Symphony_Regalia created to evade his recent ArbCom sanctions, having started editing the day prior to the Yasuke case closure. Of note to this is the last edit of Symphony_Regalia on Samurai was him attempting to insert the line "who served as retainers to lords (including daimyo)" - curiously enough, Ethiopian Epic's first edit on Samurai (and first large edit, having just prior made 11 minor ones in a short timeframe to reach autoconfirmed status) is him attempting to insert the same controversial line that was reverted before.

Symphony_Regalia has a history of utilising socks to edit Yasuke/Samurai related topics and is indefinitely blocked from the .jp wiki for extensive sockpuppetry (plus multiple suspected IPs) for this.

Prior to being sanctioned Symphony Regalia frequently got into exactly the same arguments concerning wording/source material with User:Tinynanorobots that Ethiopian Epic is now. One could assume based on their relationship that he is aggrieved that Tinynanorobots was not sanctioned by ArbCom during the case and is now continuously feuding with him to change that through edit warring and multiple administrator incidents/arbitration requests in the past few weeks. Eronymous (talk) 22:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Nil Einne

I was ?one of the editors who suggested Tinynanorobots consider ARE in the future. I did this mostly because after three threads on ANI with no result, I felt a change of venue might be more productive especially since the more structured nature of ARE, as well as a likely greater concern over low level of misconduct meant that some outcome was more likely. (For clarity, when I suggested this I did feel nothing would happen from the third ANI thread but in any case my advice being taken onboard would likely mean the third thread had no result.) I did try to make clear that I wasn't saying there was definitely a problem requiring sanction and also it was possible Tinynanorobots might themselves end up sanctioned. Since a topic ban on both is being considered, I might have been right in a way. If a topic ban results, I'd like to suggest admins considered some guidance beyond broadly constructed on how any topic ban would apply. While the entirety of the Yasuke article and the list of foreign born samurai stuff seem clear enough, one concern I've had at ANI is how to handle the editing at Samurai and its talk page. A lot of the recent stuff involving these editors seems to relate to the definition of samurai. AFAIK, this is generally been a big part of the dispute of Yasuke (he can/can't be a samurai because it means A which was/wasn't true about him). Nil Einne (talk) 12:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Result concerning Ethiopian Epic

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I've never been very impressed with retaliatory filings, and the one below is no exception. I will also note that I'm never too impressed with "must be a sock" type accusations—either file at SPI or don't. In this case, though, I think Yasuke would be better off if neither of these two were participating there. Seraphimblade 19:33, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Red-tailed hawk, what are your thoughts after the responses to you? Seraphimblade 16:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
I think that it would be declined if it were an WP:SPI report and the editor should be mindful not to throw sock accusations around willy-nilly going forward. But I typically don't see any sort of sanction imposed when someone makes a bad SPI report, particularly if they're newer or aren't quite clueful yet. So I don't see much to do on that front other than tell them that we need more specific evidence of socking when reports are made than merely shared interest, particularly when the IPs are scattered across the world. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:24, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm still inclined to topic ban both these editors from Yasuke, but would be interested in hearing more thoughts on that if anyone has them. Seraphimblade 07:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
I also generally don't like "might-be-a-sock"-style accusations; when we are accusing someone of sockpuppetry by logged out editing we typically need evidence to substantiate it rather than just floating the possibility in a flimsy way. Filer has provided several diffs above as possible socks, but each of those IPs geolocates to a different country (Germany, Norway, and Argentina respectively) and I don't see evidence that any of those IPs are proxies.@Tinynanorobots: Can you explain what led you to note the IP edits? Is it merely shared interest and viewpoint, or is there something more?— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:01, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Looking at this .... mess... first, I'm not sure what actually was against the ArbCom decision - I don't see a 1RR violation being alleged, and the rest really appears to me to be "throw stuff at the wall and see if it sticks". But, like Seraphimblade, I'm not impressed with either of these editors actual conduct here or in general. I could be brought around to supporting a topic ban for both of these editors in the interests of clearing up the whole topic area. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:33, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
@Tinynanorobots: you are well above the 500 word limit. Please request an extension before adding anything more. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Tinynanorobots

Request concerning Tinynanorobots

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: EEpic (talk) 19:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Tinynanorobots (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

09:21, 14 November 2024. Tinynanorobots removes As a samurai from the lead text and replaces it with signifying bushi status against RFC consensus (There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification).
17:12, 15 November 2024. Tinynanorobots removes who served as a samurai from the lead text and adds who became a bushi or samurai against RFC consensus (There exists a consensus against presenting Yasuke's samurai status as the object of debate).
12:43, 20 November 2024. On List of Foreign-born Samurai, Tinynanorobots removes the longstanding definition and adds This list includes persons who ... may not have been considered a samurai against RFC consensus (There exists a consensus against presenting Yasuke's samurai status as the object of debate).
07:48, 23 November 2024. Tinynanorobots reverts to remove As a samurai in the Yasuke article after Gitz6666 opposes at , again ignoring WP:ONUS.
03:13, 4 December 2024. I restore and start a talk page discussion so that consensus can be formed.
14:10, 6 December 2024 . Tinynanorobots, when consensus fails to form for his position, becomes uncivil and engages in a sarcastic personal attack What you are saying doesn't make sense. Perhaps there is a language issue here. Maybe your native language handles the future differently than English?
14:22, 11 December 2024. Tinynanorobots removes "As a samurai" again, ignoring WP:ONUS and BRD even though no consensus has formed for his position, and no consensus has formed to change existing consensus.
08:37, 6 December 2024. Tinynanorobots explains their reasons, I don't know if samurai is the right term which is against consensus.
07:27, 28 November 2024. POV-pushing - With no edit summary Tinynanorobots tag bombs by adding Slavery in Japan.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Date Explanation
Date Explanation

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 23:06, 13 November 2024.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Tinynanorobots frequently edits against consensus, restores his edits when others revert, doesn't wait for consensus, and engages in feuding behavior. He seems to think WP:BRD or WP:ONUS don't apply to him which is disruptive, and I don't know why.

Unaccounted removals of sources 23:44, 14 September 2024 - Warning from other editor about repeated removal of content when multiple users are objecting.

AGF 12:21, 15 September 2024 - Warning from yet another editor about not assuming good faith and making personal attacks

It seems to be chronic which suggests behavior problems. Tinynanorobots also frequently fails to assume good faith in others. I don't know why as I don't have any issues with him.

Their preferred edit for Yasuke against the RFC consensus is now still in the lead section.

@Relm Sorry for the confusion. I think we talking about different edits, so I'll adjust that part. I am referring to Tinynanorobot's repeated removal of As a samurai against RFC consensus, which states There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

18:40, 12 December 2024

Discussion concerning Tinynanorobots

Statement by Tinynanorobots

The accusations made by EE are so misleading as to be evidence against him. Most of what he is discussing is in reference to a successful BRD. I actually discussed the bold edit first on the talk, but didn't get much of a response. I decided a bold edit would get more feedback. The edits were reverted and then discussed. Gitz's main problem was OR, not a RfC violation. This was because he didn't read the cited source. Anyway, since Atkin says "signifying bushi status", I have no objection to restoring this text.

I never used any sarcasm, I know that some languages handle how they talk about time differently. It seems reasonable that a translation error could be the reason for EE asking me not to change the article, althoug my edit had already been restored by someone else and at the same time asking me to discuss that I had already discussed and was already discussing. I am disappointed that EE didn't point out that he felt attacked, so that I could apologize.

This was written in response to another user, and the whole thought is I don't know if samurai is the right term. It is the term a fair amount of sources use, and the one that the RfC says should be used. It is also consistent with common usage in reference to other historical figures. In fact earlier in that post I said this: I am not qualified to say whither or not Yasuke having a house meant that he was a samurai This is blatantly taking a quote out of context in order to prejudice the Admins against me.

@User:Ealdgyth I filed here, because the last time I filed at ANI it was suggested that I bring things here if things continue by an Admin. I try to follow advice, although I keep getting conflicting signals from Admins. I am most concerned that you find my work on Samurai and List of Foreign-born Samurai in Japan not adding anything helpful. My suggestion to rewrite the way samurai was defined on the List in order to reduce OR and bring it in line with WP:LSC was meant with unanimous approval by those who responded. Samurai is a high importance article that has tags on it from years back, is unorganized and contains outdated information. I am not the best writer, but I have gotten some books, and am pretty much the only one working on it.

I just thought that the Admins here should know about the ongoing SPI

Statement by Relm

I am the editor alluded to and quoted as 'protesting' Tinynanorobots edit. When I originally made that topic, I was fixing a different edit which left the first sentence as a grammatically incomplete sentence. When I looked at it in the editing view, one of the quotes in the citation beforehand was quoting Atkins Vera, and I mistook this for the opening quote having been changed. When I closed the editing menu I saw 'signifying samurai status' in the second paragraph and confused the two for each other as I had not noticed the addition of the latter phrase a little under a month ago. I realized my mistake almost immediately after I posted the new topic, and made this (1) edit to clarify my mistake while also attempting to instead direct the topic towards making sure that the edit recieved sufficient assent from Gitz (it did) and to talk about improvements that could be made to the opening sentence. I further clarified and made clear that I was not accusing Tinynanorobots of having done anything wrong in a later response (2).

Though many of their earlier edits on the page may show some issues, as they grew more familiar with the past discussions I believe that Tinynanorobots has made valuable contributions to the page in good faith. Relm (talk) 03:21, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Barkeep49

@Ealdgyth I think this misinterprets the ArbCom decision. So Yakuse is a contentious topic and it has a 1RR restriction, in the same way as say PIA. As in PIA administrators can sanction behavior that violates the contentious topics procedures besides 1RR. Beyond that, editing against the RFC is a finding of fact from the case. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Tinynanorobots

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

As above, I'm failing to see what exactly is against the ArbCom case rulings - I don't see a 1RR violation. But also as above, I'm coming to the view that neither of these editors are adding anything helpful to the topic area and am leaning towards a topic ban for both. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Rasteem

Request concerning Rasteem

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: NXcrypto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:06, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Rasteem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

23:21 12 December 2024 - removed wikilink of an Indian railway station thus violating his topic ban from India and Pakistan.

This violation comes after he was already warned for his first violation of the topic ban.

Upon a closer look into his recent contribution, I found that he is simply WP:GAMING the system by creating articles like Arjan Lake which is overall only 5,400 bytes but he made nearly 50 edits here. This is clearly being done by Rasteem for passing the 500 edits mark to get his topic ban overturned.

I recommend increasing the topic ban to indefinite duration. Nxcrypto Message 03:06, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any: "topic banned from the subject of India and Pakistan, broadly construed, until both six months have elapsed and they have made 500 edits after being notified of this sanction."

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I agree that there are genuine CIR issues with Rasteem, for example while this ARE report is in progress they created Javan Lake, which has promotional statements like: "The lake's stunning caluts, majestic desert topographies, and serene lakes produce a shifting destination. Its unique charm attracts a wide range of guests, from adventure contenders to nature suckers and beyond". Nxcrypto Message 03:26, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Rasteem

Statement by Rasteem

This approach seems to be a coordinated attack to abandon me from Misplaced Pages indefinitely. Indeed, after my ban for 6 months. I was banned on 6 December, and in just 7 days, this report is literally an attempt to make me leave Misplaced Pages.

1. I rolled back my own edit; it was last time made unintentionally. I was about to revert it, but my internet connection was lost, so when I logged in again, I regressed it.

The internet is constantly slow and sometimes goes down. I live in a hilly location and I had formerly mentioned it.

My edits on Arjan Lake isn't any WP:GAMING factual number of edits I made; it is 45, not 50. Indeed, I made similar edits before in September and December months on the same articles within a single day or 2-3 days.

2. List of villages in Khoda Afarin on this article, I've added 5680 bytes & made 43 edits.

3. List of villages in Tabriz on this article I've added 4000 bytes & made 49 edits.

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Rasteem

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

While I don't see a change in editing pattern that indicates gaming, the edits to Arjan Lake indicate issues with competence, as the article is weirdly promotional and contains phrases such as "beast species", "emotional 263 proved species". —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:57, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Adding to Femke's point, magnific 70- cadence-high waterfalls in this area is not prose that inspires confidence in the editor's competence to edit the English Misplaced Pages. So, we have violations of a topic ban and questions about the editor's linguistic competence and performance. Perhaps an indefinite block appealable in six months with a recommendation to build English competency by editing the Simple English Misplaced Pages, and to build general Misplaced Pages skills by editing in the version of Misplaced Pages in the language they speak best during that minimum six month period. As for Arjan Lake, although the prose is poor, the references in the article make it clear to me that the topic is notable, so the editor deserves some credit for starting this article that did not exist for two decades plus. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Brief comment to avoid the archive bot. Seraphimblade 17:46, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

KronosAlight

Request concerning KronosAlight

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Butterscotch Beluga (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:16, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: KronosAlight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

14 December 2024

Adds "depiste being an ex-Muslim" to dismiss accusations of Islamophobia MOS:EDITORIAL.
Adds MOS:SCAREQUOTES around ‘promoted Islamophobia’ & ‘Islamophobia’ while removing the supporting context.
Changed "interpreted that statement as a threat and incitement to violence" to "claimed was a threat and incitement to violence, though no threats or violence in fact occurred" MOS:CLAIM & MOS:EDITORIAL

14 December 2024 - MOS:TERRORIST

Changes "Israeli settlers" to "Israeli soldiers" despite the source only explicitly stating them "throwing stones on settlers."

Unnecessarily specific additions that may constitute WP:POVPUSH such as adding "against civilians" & changing "prevent the assassinations of many Israelis" to "prevent the assassinations of many Israeli civilians and soldiers"

14 December 2024 - MOS:TERRORIST

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

24 June 2024 Warned to abide by the one-revert rule when making edits within the scope of the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
22 October 2024 Blocked from editing for 1 week for violating consensus required on the page Zionism

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 22 October 2024 by ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 24 January 2024.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

All edits were made at Mosab Hassan Yousef. After I partially reverted their edits with an explanation, I brought the issue to their attention on the talk page, asking for their rationale. They replied that they were "correcting factual errors introduced by previous antisemitic editors" & asked if I "perhaps have a deeper bias that’s influencing decisions in this respect?"

They then undid my partial revert

Ealdgyth - While I can't find any comments where they were explicitly "warned for casting aspersions", they were asked back in June to WP:AGF in the topic area.

Also, apologies for my "diffs of edits that violate this sanction" section, this is the first time I've filed a request here & I thought it'd be best to explain the preamble to my revert, but I understand now that I misunderstood the purpose of that section & will remember such for the future. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 15:37, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93 I was able to find a copy of the opinion article being cited 'They Need to Be Liberated From Their God'. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 20:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning KronosAlight

Statement by KronosAlight

This is a complete waste of the Arbitration Committee’s time.

1. That Yousef was born and raised a Muslim is important and neutral context for readers to be aware of when the article refers to claims of ‘Islamophobia’.

2. The scarequotes indicate that the claim comes from the sources provided, rather than being an objective ‘fact’ determined by a few Misplaced Pages Editors with an axe to grind.

3. This was already addressed on the Talk page and I updated the sentence to say settlers/soldiers with a further label that it needed further clarification because the source does not in fact unambiguously say what Butterscotch Beluga claims.

A few lines above what Butterscotch Beluga quotes is the following lines: “AMANPOUR: How did you take part in that? Were you one of the small children who threw rocks at Israeli soldiers?

YOUSEF: The model for every Palestinian child is a mujahid (ph) or a fidahi (ph) or a fighter. So, of course, I wanted to be one at that point of my life. It wasn't -- it's not my only dream. It's every child's dream in that territory.”

The updated Wiki page noted both settlers/soldiers and included a note that this requires further clarification, perhaps based on other sources, because it isn’t clear (contra Butterscotch Beluga) whether he is referring to soldiers or settlers.

4. It is not controversial to accurately describe Hamas as a terrorist organisation. It is simply a fact. To suggest otherwise is POV-pushing.

5. This is not POVPUSH; ‘assassinations’ against civilians during peacetime are usually called ‘murders’.

I in fact didn’t even remove the word ‘assassinations’, I merely broadened the description from ‘Israelis’ to ‘Israeli civilians and soldiers’ (as Butterscotch accepted) to indicate the breadth of the individuals in question included both civilians and combatants. This is not POVPUSH, it is simply additional information and context verified in the source itself.

All in all, a vexatious claim and a waste of the Arbitration Committee’s time.

Statement by Sean.hoyland

Regarding "I was correcting factual errors introduced by previous antisemitic editors", it would be helpful if KronosAlight would explicitly identify the antisemitic editors and the edits they corrected so that they can be blocked for being antisemitic editors. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:17, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The editor has been here since 2012. It is reasonable to assume that they know the rules regarding aspersions. It is reasonable to assume they are intentionally violating them, presumably because they genuinely believe they are dealing with antisemitic editors. So, this report is somehow simultaneously a vexatious complete waste of time and the result of the someone interfering with their valiant efforts to correct errors made by antisemitic editors. Why do they have this belief? This is probably a clue, a comment they had the good sense to revert. For me, this is an example of someone attempting to use propaganda that resembles antisemitic conspiracy theories about media control to undermine Misplaced Pages's processes and then changing their mind. But the very fact that they thought of it is disturbing. Their revert suggests that they are probably aware that there are things you can say about an editor and things you cannot say about an editor. From my perspective, what we have here is part of an emerging pattern in the topic area, a growing number of attacks on Misplaced Pages and editors with accusations of antisemitism, cabals etc. stemming in part from external partisan sources/influence operations. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Zero0000

Aspersions:

Zero 10:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Vice regent

KronosAlight, you changed on 14 Dec 2024: "An open letter signed by Christian and Muslim religious leaders interpreted that statement as a threat and incitement to violence" to "An open letter signed by Christian and Muslim religious leaders claimed was a threat and incitement to violence, though no threats or violence in fact occurred".

Can you show where either of the sources state "though no threats or violence in fact occurred"? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 18:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Smallangryplanet

Wanted to add some pertinent evidence:

Talk:Zionism:

Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon:

This article gave me a very hearty laugh. It's hilarious. Nothing else to add, but congrats to the Editors for a very amusing article.

Talk:Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world:

I want to make it clear that large parts of the Arab world agreed with Hitler’s goal of exterminating the Jewish people.

Talk:2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks:

No evidence or reason to believe the attack targetted civilians, every reason to believe it targetted Hezbollah members. Also it's a bit of an overstatement to describe Lebanon as a "sovereign country".

Talk:Anti-Zionism:

Talk:Gaza genocide:

Talk:Nuseirat rescue and massacre:

It’s not how Misplaced Pages should work, and it badly distorts articles which should be neutral but are unfortunately pushes into pro-Hamas territory.

Talk:Al-Sardi school attack:

Yes, we’re familiar with your propaganda campaign masquerading as some sort of neutral position.

Talk:Eden Golan:

Can we stop acting like we aren’t creating double standards for Jews? Like there isn’t a profound problem of antisemitism among Misplaced Pages editors and moderators? It’s disgusting and shameful.

Other sanctions:

March 2024: indefinitely topic banned from the subject of flood myths for sealioning, WP:ASPERSIONS, etc
June 2024: warned to abide by 1RR
October 2024: blocked for a week

Statement by (username)

Result concerning KronosAlight

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Much of the "diffs of edits that violate this sanction" fail to explain "how these edits violate" the sanction - to me, much of these diffs look like a content dispute. However, the "additional comments" section DOES have a diff that is concerning and violates the CT by casting an aspersion that is not backed up by a diff - the "antisemitic editors" diff. Has KA been previously warned for casting aspersions? If they have, I'm inclined to issue a topic ban, but many other editors get a warning for this if they lack a previous warning. The diffs brought up by Zero (not all of which I necessarily see as aspersions, but the "Jew-hatred" one is definitely over the line - but it's from September so a bit late to sanction for just that) - did anyone point out that aspersions/incivility in this topic area is sanctionable? I see the warnings for 1RR and consensus required... Ealdgyth (talk) 13:30, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @KronosAlight: - can you address the fact that saying "correcting factual errors introduced by previous antisemitic editors" and "Is there no limits you will not cross in order to seek to justify your Jew-hatred"? Neither of these are statements that should ever be made - and the fact that you seem to not to understand this is making me lean towards a topic ban. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
KronosAlight, can you please provide quotes from the references you cited for - for instance - "for his terrorist activities" in this addition, showing that the sources explicitly supported the content you added? Calling a person or an organization is perfectly acceptable if you support that with reliable sources; if it is original research, or source misrepresentation, it isn't acceptable. I cannot access some of the sources in question. You may provide quotes inside a collapsed section if you wish to save space. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
I missed Zero's comments earlier. A lot of those comments, while concerning, are generic, not directed at a specific editor. this, however, is beyond the pale. I would need some convincing that this user is able to edit this area constructively. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:56, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
@KronosAlight, can you please respond to this? I too am concerned...the quote you're objecting to wasn't from DrSmarty. It was a direct quote, scare quotes and all, from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. You seem to have reacted to it as if it were DrSmarty. Valereee (talk) 16:06, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
I don't like to sanction in absentia, and I'm not yet suggesting we do so, but I want to note that not choosing not to respond here, or going inactive to avoid responding, will not improve the outcome as far as I am concerned. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
They're a pretty sporadic editor...many edits over a period of a few days, then nothing for two weeks. Maybe we pin this until they edit again? Valereee (talk) 17:26, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Valereee that this editors contribution history shows a pattern of editing for a day or two at a time followed by several weeks of inactivity. So I don't think it's fair to say they went inactive here but also holding this open for multiple weeks waiting for a response places some burden on the other other interested editors. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Welp, it's been nearly ten days since they first posted here, calling this a waste of time and vexatious. They're fully aware it's happening, and it's not even like they haven't been to AE before.

I've gone through the diffs here, and it seems to me the basis of KA's problematic editing is that they're on a mission to WP:right great wrongs, specifically w/re what they see as antisemitic bias on WP. The exchange at Talk:Algeria a few weeks ago makes that pretty clear: they come into Algeria and open a section to post a content complaint about the article not covering changing Jewish demographics in the country, saying "Many people have edited it, but apparently not one has seen fit to explain" this. Another editor suggests KA fix whatever problem they're seeing, and KA responds: I made that comment to highlight the obvious problem of antisemitism among Misplaced Pages editors. The question was rhetorical. And many of their other talk contributions are focussed on these accusations of systemic bias.

And @KronosAlight, in case you're paying attention: of course WP has systemic bias. It's usually unintentional, but in most CTOPs there are editors who consciously try to push a POV. The solution for that isn't to go 'round making accusations. It's to go 'round fixing the problem either by adding missing content or by discussing biased content in nonproblematic ways. It's the "nonproblematic ways" part you're missing, here. And if you are paying attention: You cannot make an AE case go away by ignoring it. I very strongly recommend you come in here and respond to the questions. Valereee (talk) 13:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Nicoljaus

Procedural notes: Per the rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Nicoljaus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:09, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: To enforce an arbitration decision, and for edit warring, and intent to game 1rr, you have been blocked indefinitely from editing Misplaced Pages.

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: I'm aware. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Nicoljaus

The circumstances of my blocking were:

I was looking for a Misplaced Pages account for Hiba Abu Nada to add it to Wikidata. I couldn't find it, so I did a little research. The reference in the article indicated that she participated in some WikiWrites(?) project. I didn’t find such a project, but I found the WikiRights project: https://ar.wikipedia.org/ويكيبيديا:ويكي_رايتس. It was organized by a certain Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor. I read the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor article and didn't see any outside perspective, "controversy" or anything like that, just self-representation. I surfed the Internet and instantly found information that must be in the article to comply with the NPOV. I started adding , everything went well for two days. Then:
12:53, 23 April 2024 - Zero0000 made a complete cancellation of all additions
13:14, 23 April 2024 - (20 minutes later!) Selfstudier wrote on my TP
14:20 - 14:22, 23 April 2024 -‎ With two edits (first, second) I partially took into account the comment of Zero0000 about "ethnic marking", but returned the last .
14:27, 23 April 2024 (7 minutes later!!) Selfstudier makes a second complete cancellation of all my edits, blaming POV editing
14:45, 23 April 2024‎ - I’m returning the version where I partially took into account Zero0000’s comments (removed "ethnic marking")
15:10, 23 April 2024 - Selfstudier accuses me of 1RR breach. In the dialogue, I explained that the group that really violated the rule was Selfstudier&Zero0000, who obviously acted in close coordination. My first undo was part of a counter edit User talk:Nicoljaus#1RR_breach
15:41, 23 April 2024 Selfstudier writes on Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
16:10, 23 April 2024 (30 minutes later!) ScottishFinnishRadish issues an indefinite block . No opportunity to write my “statement”, as well as an extremely bad faith interpretation of my remark as "an intent to game 1rr".

Given that the both Selfstudier and Zero0000 are currently being discussed in Arbcom (https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Evidence), I humbly ask you to take a fresh look at my indefinite block and soften the restrictions in some way". Nicoljaus (talk) 19:32, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: - You mean, I need to discuss my previous edit war blocks? Well, the last one was almost four years ago and that time I simply forgot that I was under 1RR (there was a big break in editing) and tried to get sources for a newly added map, and the opponent refused to do so . As it turned out later, the true source was a book by a fringe author, which the RSN called "Usual nationalistic bullshit, no sign of reliability". Yes, it was a stupid forgetfulness on my part. Nicoljaus (talk) 16:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

@Aquillion: Even if you were correct that Selfstudier & Zero0000 were WP:TAGTEAMing (always a tricky accusation, because it's hard to separate that from just your edits being so obviously problematic that two people independently reverted them) -- That's why I wrote that my "so problematic edits" attracted attention only after two days, but two users appeared within 20 minutes. However, after months, a lot of data about the cooperation of these users appeared (and this is not my imagination): "While a single editor, Shane (a newbie), advocated for its inclusion, a trio of veterans including Zero0000, Nishidani and Selfstudier fought back. After Selfstudier accused Shane of being a troll for arguing for the photo’s inclusion, Zero0000, days later, “objected” to its inclusion, citing issues of provenance. Nishidani stepped in to back up Zero0000, prompting a response by Shane. The following day, Zero0000 pushed back against Shane, who responded. The day after, Nishidani returned with his own pushback. The tag-team effort proved too much for Shane, who simply gave up, and the effort succeeded: the photo remains absent" . I'll add that after Selfstudier accused Shane of trolling, Zero0000 appeared on Shane's page and said: "Kindly keep your insults to yourself I won't hesitate to propose you for blocking if you keep it up" . According to the table at the link , these two users cooperated like this 720 times. Probably hundreds of people were embittered, forced out of the project, or led to blocking like me.--Nicoljaus (talk) 13:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: Hello, thank you very much for transferring my remarks, now I understand how it works. I would like to clarify the issue of meatpuppetry. You directly accused me of such intentions in justifying the block, and now this accusation has been repeated . Let's figure out whether my hint that Selfstudier and Zero0000 are working too closely was so absurd? Was it really and remains so absurd that it could not be perceived as anything other than my self-exposure? I don't think so.

As for the "edit war" - I understand that edit wars are evil. In the spirit of cooperation, I tried to meet my opponents halfway, as in this case, taking into account their claim, which I could understand, in the counter edit. If such an action is also considered an edit war and a violation of the 1RR/3RR rule - I will of course avoid it in the future.--Nicoljaus (talk) 16:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: Hello, I understand your point that edit wars can be disruptive, particularly in a CTOP context. However, I believe it is essential to recognize that not all reverts carry the same implications. While it is true that a revert is a revert, the context and intent behind the action should also be taken into account. In this instance, I made efforts to address the concerns of the other party involved, which reflects a willingness to engage in dialogue rather than simply reverting. Furthermore, I acknowledge your reference to the 1RR/3RR rule and my history of blocks for edit-warring. However, given the amount of time that has passed, I believe I have gained valuable insights and learned a great deal. Moreover, given this topic, I think I actually learned something unlike the other side, whose history of blocks for edit-warring remains clean.--Nicoljaus (talk) 4:24 am, Today (UTC−5)

@Valereee: In response to this, I can say that I already know very well how carelessly admins impose blocks. If any further statements are needed from me, just ping me. With best regards.--Nicoljaus (talk) 09:51, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Absent from the appeal is discussion of the five prior edit warring blocks and any indication that they will not resume edit warring. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I said They have a long history of edit warring, so I'd like to see that addressed rather than blaming others above, twelve days ago. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Nicoljaus, you should be focusing on convincing people that you won't edit war in the future rather than more WP:NOTTHEM. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:11, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Nicoljaus

Statement by Simonm223

This edit looks like a bright-line WP:BLP violation via WP:ATTACK and WP:WEASEL - and removing BLP violations are generally somewhere where there is some latitude on WP:1RR which makes the actions of Zero0000 and Selfstudier more justified, not less. Simonm223 (talk) 13:50, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Aquillion

Selfstudier accuses me of 1RR breach. In the dialogue, I explained that the group that really violated the rule was Selfstudier&Zero0000, who obviously acted in close coordination. My first undo was part of a counter edit - I feel like this is obvious enough that I probably don't have to point it out, but "counter edit" is not a WP:3RR / WP:1RR exception. Even if you were correct that Selfstudier & Zero0000 were WP:TAGTEAMing (always a tricky accusation, because it's hard to separate that from just your edits being so obviously problematic that two people independently reverted them), it still would not justify your revert. The fact that they're parties to an ArbCom case (which hasn't even yet found any fault with them!) doesn't change any of this. You should probably read WP:NOTTHEM. --Aquillion (talk) 14:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Sean.hoyland

"the group that really violated the rule was Selfstudier&Zero0000, who obviously acted in close coordination"...yet another conspiracy-minded evidence-free accusation against editors in the PIA topic area, the third one at AE in just a few days. Sean.hoyland (talk) 14:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Result of the appeal by Nicoljaus

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I do not see any indication that Nicoljaus actually realizes the problem. The edit warring blocks were indeed some time ago, but one might think they would remember it after being blocked for it repeatedly, not to mention that being issued a CTOP notice might call a CTOP restriction to mind. And the remark in question sure looks to me like a threat to game 1RR via meatpuppetry, too. Given all that, I would decline this appeal. Seraphimblade 23:10, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
I see nothing in this appeal that makes me think they've taken on board the changes that they'd need to do to be a productive editor. It reads to me like "my block was bad, here's why", and that's not working as a reason for me to support unblocking. Ealdgyth (talk) 23:21, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Nicoljaus, what we need to see is you demonstrating you understand edit-warring at a CTOP, which is what you were blocked for, and convincing us you won't do it again. Arguing the block should be lifted because other editors did something you thought looked suspicious isn't going to convince us. Just FWIW, Nicoljaus, the source doesn't actually say these two users cooperated like this 720 times. It says they edited the same articles 720 times, and that's not unusual. Most editors see the same other editors over and over again in articles about their primary interest. And edit by editor 1>2 days>revert by editor 2>revert by editor 1>20 minutes>revert by editor 3 is also not at all unusual anywhere on the encyclopedia and isn't evidence of tag-teaming. People read their watch lists. Any editor with that article on their watchlist, which is nearly fifty editors, might have investigated the large revert of an edit by an experienced editor at a contentious topic. Valereee (talk) 15:18, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
@Nicoljaus, it's not that edit wars are evil. It's that they're disruptive, and particularly in a CTOP we really really don't need additional disruption and drama. A revert is a revert, even if you tried to meet my opponents halfway, as in this case, taking into account their claim, which I could understand, in the counter edit. Re: If such an action is also considered an edit war and a violation of the 1RR/3RR rule: a revert is a revert and is covered in the policy around reversions. And you have a history of blocks for edit-warring, including at other CTOPs.

It's been seven months since the block. I'm trying to come around to a way to at least allow this editor a chance to show us they've taken this stuff on board...maybe a 0RR at all CTOPs? Valereee (talk) 17:44, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
@Nicoljaus, re I believe it is essential to recognize that not all reverts carry the same implications. While it is true that a revert is a revert, the context and intent behind the action should also be taken into account. In this instance, I made efforts to address the concerns of the other party involved, which reflects a willingness to engage in dialogue rather than simply reverting. Some editors at talk pages will take your apparent intentions into account. Some will just take you to ANEW. Some admins at ANEW will take your apparent intentions into account. Some will just reblock you.

No one anywhere is promising that your intentions will be taken into account -- or even that they'll try to figure out what your intentions are -- and therefore it's completely your responsibility to read the situation you're in correctly. If you read it wrong, you're likely to be blocked again, and honestly another block for edit-warring at a CTOP is likely to be another indef, and it would absolutely not surprise me for the blocking admin to require 12 months to appeal. Valereee (talk) 15:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
No need to reply, but I'll tell you plainly I've been trying to give you opportunities to convince other admins here, and you keep wanting to dig the hole deeper. I'd support an unblock with an editing restriction of 0RR at any article with a CTOPs designation on the talk page. Valereee (talk) 13:13, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

PerspicazHistorian

Request concerning PerspicazHistorian

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: NXcrypto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: PerspicazHistorian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

17:57, 18 December 2024 - removed "discrimination" sidebar from the page of Hindutva (fascist ideology) even though the sidebar was inserted inside a section, not even the lead.
17:59, 18 December 2024 - tag bombed the highly vetted Hindutva article without any discussion or reason
10:15, 18 December 2024 - attributing castes to people withhout any sources
12:11, 18 December 2024 - edit warring to impose the above edits after getting reverted
17:09, 18 December 2024 - just like above, but this time he also added unreliable sources
18:29, 18 December 2024 - still edit warring and using edit summaries instead of talk page for conversation
14:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC) - filed an outrageous report on WP:ANI without notifying any editors. This report was closed by Bbb23 as "This is nothing but a malplaced, frivolous personal attack by the OP."

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Already 2 blocks in last 4 months for edit warring.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I do not see any positive signs that this editor will ever improve. So far he has only regressed. Nxcrypto Message 15:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

While going through this report, PerspicazHistorian has made another highly problematic edit here by edit warring and misrepresenting the sources to label the organisation as "terrorist". This primary source only provides a list of organisations termed by the Indian government as "terrorist" contrary to MOS:TERRORIST. Nxcrypto Message 03:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning PerspicazHistorian

Statement by PerspicazHistorian

By far I am also concerned how my edits were forcefully reverted without a proper reason despite providing enough references. Please check how I am getting attacked by them on Chandraseniya_Kayastha_Prabhu Page. I didn't know about the three-revert-rule before User: Ratnahastin told me about this: User_talk:PerspicazHistorian. Please grant me one more chance, I will make sure not to edit war.
In the below statement by LukeEmily, As a reply I just want to say that I was just making obvious edit on Chandraseniya_Kayastha_Prabhu by adding a list of notable people with proper references. And according to Edit_warring#What_edit_warring_is it is clearly said: "Edits from a slanted point of view, general insertion or removal of material, or other good-faith changes are not considered vandalism." It was a good faith edit but others reverted it. I accept my mistake of not raising it on talk page as a part of Misplaced Pages:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle.
As a clarification to my edit on Students' Islamic Movement of India, it can be clearly seen that I provided enough reference to prove its a terrorist organisation as seen in this edit. I don't know why is there a discussion to this obvious edit? Admins please correct me if I am wrong.

@Valereee, Yes I read about 1RR and 0RR revert rules in Misplaced Pages:Edit warring#What edit warring is#Other revert rules. I now understand the importance of raising the topic on talk page whenever a consensus is needed. Thank You ! PerspicazHistorian (talk) 07:16, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I will commit to that. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC) Moved comment to own section. Please comment, including replies, only in this section. Seraphimblade 13:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

At that time I was new to how AFD discussions worked. Later on when Satish R. Devane was marked for deletion, I respected the consensus by not interfering in it. The article was later deleted. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 11:54, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Doug Weller , I just checked your user page. You have 16 years (I am 19) of experience on wiki, you must be right about me. I agree that my start on Misplaced Pages has been horrible, but I am learning a lot from you all. I promise that I will do better, get more neutral here and contribute to the platform to my best. Please don't block me.

P.S.- I don't know If I will be blocked or what , according to this enforcement rules, I just want to personally wish good luck to you for your ongoing cancer treatments, You will surely win this battle of Life. Regards. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 12:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Moved comment to own section. Please comment, including replies, only in this section.Valereee (talk) 15:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by LukeEmily

PerspicazHistorian also violated WP:BRD by engaging in an edit war with Ratnahastin who reverted his edits and restored an article to a stable version by admin. Also, I want to assume good faith but it is surprising that PerspicazHistorian claims that he did not know the three revert rule given that he has more than 800 edits.LukeEmily (talk)

Statement by Doug Weller

I'm involved so just commenting. I don't think this editor is competent. I had to give them a community sanction caste warning as they were making a mess of castes. See this earlier version of their talk page.]https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:PerspicazHistorian&oldid=1262289249] and User:Deb's comment that "It was very unwise of you to keep moving Draft:Satish R. Devane to article space when it has not passed review. As a direct result of your actions, a deletion discussion is taking place, and when this is complete and the article is deleted, you will be prevented from recreating it. Deb (talk) 14:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)" There have also been copyright issues. I strongly support a topic ban. Doug Weller talk 11:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I won't be involved in the decision. No more treatments for me, just coast until... Doug Weller talk 12:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Result concerning PerspicazHistorian

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

PerspicazHistorian, can you explain your understanding of WP:edit warring and the WP:3RR rule? I'd like you to read thoroughly enough to also explain wny someone may be edit warring even if they aren't breaking 3RR. Valereee (talk) 21:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

@PerspicazHistorian, that explanation of edit warring is a bit wanting. An edit war is when two or more editors revert content additions/removals repeatedly. Even a second reversion by the same editor can be considered edit warring. Best practice -- and what I highly recommend, especially for any inexperienced editor -- is the first time someone reverts an edit of yours, go to the talk page, open a section, ping the editor who reverted you, and discuss. Do you think you can commit to that?

Re: your question on why your "obvious edit" was reverted: we don't deal with content issues here, only with behavior issues, but from a very quick look, the source is 50 years old, and using a list headed "TERRORIST ORGANISATIONS LISTED IN THE FIRST SCHEDULE OF THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES (PREVENTION) ACT, 1967" that includes a certain organization as a source that the organization should be described as a terrorist organization is WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH; in their revert NXcrypto provided an edit summary of "Not a reliable source for such a contentious label. See WP:LABEL." Please discuss at talk, not here; we don't deal with content here. Valereee (talk) 11:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Walter Tau

Request concerning Walter Tau

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Bobby Cohn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Walter Tau (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Final decision

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

4 December 2024 Creation (and subsequent editing and AfC submission) of Draft:Maternity capital. See it's page history, there's no need to supply the entirety of the diffs here.
- For context on how this subject falls under the purview, see the context given by the news article as shared on the talk page: Russia using adoption of Ukranian children during the Russo-Ukranian war. Then note how this state program directly discusses adoption support, which was adapted by Putin following the start of the war. A citation given in the draft article. The Google translated version specifically notes the changes "At the same time, residents of the new regions will receive maternity capital regardless of the basis and timing of their acquisition of Russian citizenship" (emphasis mine).
This draft, as it is written, is extremely promotional in areas and could basically be hosted on a state-sponsored website. Given the context, I believe this falls under the topic ban.

References

Bruce, Camdyn (14 December 2022). "Ukrainian official rips Russia for 'kidnapping' more than 13,000 children". The Hill.
"Путин подписал закон, уточняющий условия выплаты материнского капитала" . interfax.ru.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

26 November 2024 Notice given by Rosguill (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) that they were now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction
5 December 2024 Blocked by Swatjester (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for violating the sanction based on the edits to a project page.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Has been made aware, see the diffs in the above section.
Alerted about contentious topics as it applies to this specific draft, on 4 December 2024 by Asilvering (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), given a warning about this specific draft and how it falls under the above purview.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

It has been repeatedly pointed out to Walter Tau that they are skirting the line of the their topic ban by specifically not mentioning the "elephant in the room", see the diff by Asilvering above. They have also repeatedly chosen to ignore advice that they stop editing in the subject area and have repeatedly claimed to fail to see how their editing is problematic. As such, I have opened this discussion here so as to get an answer for Walter Tau on their editing, see "Also, since you mentioned a "topic ban", I would appreciate, if you provide a reference to it, as well as explain how it relates to this article Materniy Capital." They claim to continuously be unaware of the ban, see also their talk page discussions.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified 24 December 2024.

Discussion concerning Walter Tau

Statement by Walter Tau

I feel, that the decision by Boby Cohn regarding my draft https://en.wikipedia.org/Draft:Maternity_capital, is "arbitrary and capriciuos" to use US legal terms : ], for the following reasons:

1) nowhere my draft mentions the words "Ukraine" or "Ukrainian".

2) this draft ] is a translation of the original Russian wiki- article : https://ru.wikipedia.org/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB . I have heard the argument, that different languages in Misplaced Pages use different standards for articles' notability etc. Can someone please provide a web-link to Misplaced Pages rules, that actually confirms, that different standards for different languages is the currently accepted policy. I have been unable to find such statement.

3) In fact, my draft focuses mostly on the policies before 24 February 2022, i.e. before full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine.

4) Please correct me, if I am wrong, by it seems that Boby Cohn's only argument of my ban violation is the following statement in my draft of Maternity Capital. "Residents of new regions are paid maternity capital regardless of the time and basis for obtaining Russian citizenship." In my defense: I did not write that statement- it is a Google translation from the Russian wiki, actually a small part of the translated text. And with all honesty, when I was reading the translated text, it did not cross my mind, that someone may interpret so broadly. Also, this sentence-in-question does not really add much to the main subject to the article, and I do not object to its deletion.

5) Considering, that a) I did not write, but only translated the text-in-question; b) the relevance to the text-in-question to my topic ban is not apparent, particularly in the larger context of the whole article; c) I do not object deleting the text-in-question from the draft; may I suggest changing the draft to fix this controversy?

6) If there are other controversial sections/sentences in my translated draft, it may be better if someone re-writes them. Most wiki-readers, can agree with a statement, that this draft ] may not reach an "Article of the Day" status, but it has a value as a stand-alone article as well as a source of references (more-to-be-added). Walter Tau (talk) 13:45, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

I can see now, why some editors consider the translated addition, that I made, a violation of my ban on editing Russia-Ukraine topic. It was not my intention. I fact, I agree with the deletion of the questionable sentence "Residents of new regions are paid maternity capital regardless of the time and basis for obtaining Russian citizenship.". At the same time, I would like to keep the rest of draft, so that myself and other keep working on getting it published. Do I understand correctly, that the notability of this topic is not being questioned?

Statement by TylerBurden

Walter Tau doesn't seem to think they have done anything wrong on Misplaced Pages, so it's honestly not surprising to see them continuing to push the limit despite the sanctions they have received. At some point you have to wonder if there is a foundational WP:COMPETENCE or trolling (or a combination of both) issue. Either way, yes they are clearly violating their topic ban by writing about the Russian kidnapping of Ukrainian children from the war, because that is what this whole ″adoption″ thing is. --TylerBurden (talk) 17:22, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Walter Tau

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Sidestepping for now the question of whether simply not mentioning anything conflict-related would have been enough to avoid a TBAN violation, the references to "new regions" make this a violation much more straightforwardly. Justice is blind but not stupid. Walter, I think we're going to need to see recognition from you that this was a TBAN violation, if we're going to find a good path forward here. I'd also like to know who you are referring to when you reference other editors working on the draft? Auric has made some gnomish edits but you appear to be the only substantive editor. And why are you implying, on Bobby's talk, that y'all have been corresponding by email, when he denies that? -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 22:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I'll be direct: I think Walter knows what he is doing and has no intention of abiding by his TBAN, even when it was exhaustively explained to him, and I don't think we should be wasting further time here when we're almost certainly going to be right back here again within a few weeks. ⇒SWATJester 05:29, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Back off a one week block for violating the topic ban, and already violating it again? (The "new regions" material is unquestionably a violation.) It seems that Walter Tau is either unwilling or unable to abide by the restriction, and does not, even after explanation, understand any of the issues here (or even understand something so simple as that different language Wikipedias are independent from one another and each have their own policies and practices). Given that, I don't see anything to be done here except to indef. Seraphimblade 17:45, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Categories: