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Statue

Hetoum, the statue of Natavan was damaged and sold as scrap metal to Georgia, where it was bought by Azerbaijani authorities. Please do not remove sourced info. --Grandmaster 06:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere is this sourced, you provided a random picture. To say politely, this picture did not give me 1,000 words. Please give text of this.Hetoum I 06:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Hetoum, please revert yourself, here’s a quote from de Waal regarding this statue:

In their turn, the conquering Armenians dismantled and sold off dark bronze busts of three Azerbaijani Shusha musicians and poets. Again, these memorials were rescued by chance, this time from a scrap-metal merchant in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. I saw the three bronze heads, forlorn and pocked with bullets, lying in the courtyard of the headquarters of the Red Cross in the center of Baku: the poet Natevan, an earnest girl in a head scarf reading a book, missing a thumb; the composer Hajibekov, a bullet-ridden gentleman in double-breasted suit and broken spectacles; and Bul Bul, a famous singer with a serious domed bronze forehead.

Thomas de Waal. Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War

Grandmaster 10:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I added exactly what the source said, and the other stuff you forgot to add about the real cultural destruction.Hetoum I 04:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

How the stuff that you added is relevant to Natavan, the poetess? This article is about her. Grandmaster 05:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

same as what does karabakh war or other statues has to do with this? Also, nothing in your source referred to Natavan;s residence. If you mention one "destruction" you should mention the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hetoum I (talk • contribs) 05:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

HetoumI - you are removing sourced info and it is directly related to Natavan - her monument. I don't know how relevant general info about destruction of Armenian cultural heritage here. It has its own page.--Dacy69 15:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed most of the section because it was a mess. Please rewrite it according to De Waal and no picture sources please. VartanM 18:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the important info about the fate of the bust and added Thomas de Waal's quote from his book "Black Garden" Ehud 05:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Ehud, just out of curiosity, how did you found this page, And why do you think an unknown picture should be used as a source. VartanM 06:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Vartan, I found this page the same way you did. Why do you think this picture is "unknown"? It is the picture of the bust of Natavan with the damage described in the quote from de Waal's book. Ehud 23:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Shalom, I think the picture is unknown because its been cropped from top and bottom, and it could be any statue. In any case it can't be used as a source. I removed it and placed a tag. It's up to you to find the a source to confirm whats written. Good talking to you, lehitraot. VartanM 01:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Shalom Vartan, shalom. Ma nishma? It is NOT any statue. You can compare the picture which was initially posted from Ogonek and the one here which clearly compares the condition of the bust in 1982 with the condition with bullet holes after it was found in Georgia to be sold as scrap metal. And here is another link showing the busts of Uzeyir Hajibeyov and Khurshidbanu Natavan in the frontyard of Azerbaijani Museum of Arts in Baku (third picture from the end, second row): . Reverting to previous version and adding the link as well. Ehud 03:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Shalom Ehud, ani beseder, ma shlomcha? I removed the picture sources because it constitutes to OR, added fact tags, please provide reliable text sources. VartanM 07:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Source is there, see de Waal: Armenians dismantled and sold off dark bronze busts of three Azerbaijani Shusha musicians and poets. He also describes that they are damaged with bullets. I will take a high quality image once renovation works in the museum are completed. Grandmaster 07:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster then please fix the wording to correspond with De Waal. A high quality picture that isn't cropped from top and bottom will be a nice addition to this article. Please also note that the ogoniok picture is in the external links section. VartanM 07:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, I restored the reference to Ogonyok picture, as it's used as reference in the sentence of the article. As for external link, it does not matter if it's there or not now. Atabek 12:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I added the requested by SmackBot source and removed the tags. The source is the Public Association for the "Protection of Rights of Migrants and Internally Displaced Persons in Azerbaijan". Since the sentence itself starts with "Azerbaijan claims...", I hope, there is no point debating over the issue of the source. Thank you. Ehud 02:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Shalom Ehud, there is no problem saying that Azerbaijan claims only you have to write what the source actually says.

Three bronze monuments dedicated to the three creative giants – Hajibeyov, Bulbul and Natavan – were discovered in Georgia, allegedly being sold for scrap metal. But the minister of culture Polad Bulbuloghlu rescued these bullet-ridden bronze busts and brought them back to Baku where they are now on exhibit in the courtyard behind the National Museums of Art near the President’s Office Building."

1. No mention of Armenians 2. No mention of black market 3. Allegedly being sold for scrap metal.

Also, the title of the section has to be changed to something NPOV. VartanM 04:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

No, the quote actually says:

In their turn, the conquering Armenians dismantled and sold off dark bronze busts of three Azerbaijani Shusha musicians and poets. Again, these memorials were rescued by chance, this time from a scrap-metal merchant in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. I saw the three bronze heads, forlorn and pocked with bullets, lying in the courtyard of the headquarters of the Red Cross in the center of Baku: the poet Natevan, an earnest girl in a head scarf reading a book, missing a thumb; the composer Hajibekov, a bullet-ridden gentleman in double-breasted suit and broken spectacles; and Bul Bul, a famous singer with a serious domed bronze forehead.

We can add it in full, if you wish. Grandmaster 04:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

As you can see, Armenians and black market in Georgia are mentioned, and the word "allegedly" was not used. --Grandmaster 04:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about Ehud's source

as for De waal you have to say De Waal claims, since his the only one that actually claims that it was Armenians who dismantled and sold off busts. Did he actually see them dismantling it and selling it in the "black market"(no mention of black market by the way). Look I have a fairly simple request please source your claims correctly, according to sources without OR. I was gonna edit the article but I will assume good faith and let you fix it.--VartanM 05:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Who else could have dismantled them in a town occupied by Armenian forces? While Azeris were in the town, the statues were there. I don't know if de Waal saw how Armenians were dismantling them or not, but it is a fact that he says what he says. Grandmaster 05:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Shalom Vartan. Thanks for working this out. I think, the title should stay at Destruction of monuments. Please take into account the following:

1. The monument must have been destructed if it appears (and not only Natavan's statue, but also those of Hajibekov and Bul Bul) to had been bullet-ridden and taken of its/their designated spot(s).

2. I didn't think you would have accepted the source, Vartan. Clearly, you liked the word "allegedly" :-) I am willing to input the word allegedly, if you agree we should insert one more reference from the same source which states:

But the damage caused by war to Shusha doesn’t limited only with it. Photo taken on May8, 1992 Khan kizi Natavan’s burnt house presented as “Armenian temple centre” and introduced as the sample of “Azerbaijanis vandalism” in web-site “www.artsakhworld”, which reflects the limitless of Armenian claims. We could cite as an example, shot statue of famous composer Uzeir Hajibeyov, famous singer Bulbul and Khurshud Banu Natavan, a 19th century Azeri poetess. Ehud 05:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

If the monuments were destructed, they wouldn't be in Baku. The were damaged during the war, dismantled and taken to Georgia, found at a scrap metal yard, bought by the Azerbaijani minister of culture and brought to Baku.

Ehud the second reference is an attack on a website, if you can find another neutral source that says her house was damaged/destroyed/burnt/cought on fire we can discuss VartanM 15:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Shalom Vartan. Ma nishma? I don't think a website, which uses a word "allegedly" in regard to the fate of the monuments can be biased and present false claims on that issue. Evidently, www.artsakhworld.com is biased and presents Armenian stance only. Ehud 06:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Erev tov Ehud, ani beseder toda. I never tried to use artsakhworld as a source. the part about her house is more of an attack on artsakhworld then description about the house. I'm sure you can find another source. Besides the article already mentions that her residence was damaged. And I'm not questioning whether it did or not, a lot of houses in Shousha were damaged. VartanM 06:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I added fact tags to the article please provide sources for the claims. VartanM 18:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, “destroyed” is not the accurate word. They were severely damaged, for instance according to de Waal Natavan's statue was pocked with bullets and missing a thumb. And de Waal says that they were sold as scarp metal, so I don't understand what the second tag is for. I'll fix the article accordingly. Grandmaster 06:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You forgot the title of the section. Although severely is a wiseal word, I'm fine with it. The second tag was for "black market" De Waal never mentions any black markets. VartanM 06:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he says: Again, these memorials were rescued by chance, this time from a scrap-metal merchant in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. We can remove the words "black market". --Grandmaster 06:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I never disputed the fact that it was found in scrap-metal, I just don't believe that scrap metal merchants work in black market. For the title of the section I suggest "Natavans statue in Shusha" I think thats the most neutral. Unless you have other ideas. VartanM 06:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

it could be something like "the fate" or "condition of Natavan's monuments in Shusha", as it is not just about her statue. Her residence was a museum. Something like that. Other suggestions can be considered. Grandmaster 06:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"Fate of Natavan's monument in Shusha" is fine. Look at it this way, how many statues get to survive a war, then travel to another country, where they survive being used as scrap metal, then they get rescued by a prince... I mean minister. She lived a great life as a statue, most statues just stand there and get pooped on by pigeons. You can remove the POV tag as well. VartanM 06:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

We talk about cultural heritage, don't we? Natavan was not a political fugure to be hated for her beliefs. And I will do more research on what happened to her house-museum. I saw some pics of the ruins on the Internet, but we need a written source. Grandmaster 07:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Fixed, but I cannot remove the tag, it would be a revert. Grandmaster 07:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe hatred had anything to do with what happened. I don't think her statue was intentionally shot at, ammunition was very hard to come by those years. And her statue was sold to Georgians not because Armenians hated her but because someone saw an opportunity to make money. Statues of Armenians were also disappearing during those years even from Yerevan. The article already mentions that her residence was damaged, you can expend on it if you find the sources. VartanM 07:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

References

1. http://www.azerbaijanfoundation.org/cgi-bin/e-cms/vis/vis.pl?s=001&p=0082&n=000120&g=

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Azerbaijani revisionism

Khurshidbanu Natavan is not Azerbaijani, as such a designation did not even exist when she was alive. Adelphopolis (talk) 19:17, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

She was Azerbaijani. Her father Mehtiqulu Khan was Azerbaijani khan of Karabakh, Her grandfather Ibrahim Khalil khan was Azerbaijani khan of Karabakh. And ger grandgrandfather Panah Ali khan was the first Azerbaijani khan of Karabakh. Reliable sources determine her as an Azerbaijani poetress. So, please stop your disputed and destructive edits. In other case admins may block your account from editting. --Interfase (talk) 21:01, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Where are your sources? And as a non-administrator, you cannot threaten me. WP:ANI is the place for you. Adelphopolis (talk) 21:13, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

You can find all sources in the article. --Interfase (talk) 21:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Natəvanın niyə "azəri" olması ehtimalını izah edən heç bir məlumat yoxdur. Mənbəniz yoxdursa, məqalədə yalan yaza bilməzsiniz! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adalalada (talk • contribs) 20:01, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

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