| Revision as of 09:45, 12 October 2007 editLuckyLouie (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers27,104 edits →Failed GA: anomalies← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 04:11, 17 March 2024 edit undoHarryboyles (talk | contribs)Administrators158,994 editsm →top: removing unsupported parameters in {{WikiProject Paranormal}}Tag: AWB |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{talkheader}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
|
{{Calm}} |
|
{{ActiveDiscussMC|Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-13 Electronic Voice Phenomenon}} |
|
|
⚫ |
{{Article history|action1=AfD |
|
{{Controversial3}} |
|
|
{{ArticleHistory |
|
| ⚫ |
|action1=AfD |
|
|
|action1date=June 23 2004 |
|
|action1date=June 23 2004 |
|
|action1link=Talk:Electronic_voice_phenomenon/Archive1#VfD_discussion |
|
|action1link=Talk:Electronic_voice_phenomenon/Archive 1#VfD_discussion |
|
|action1result=Keep |
|
|action1result=Keep |
|
|
|
|
|
|action2=PR |
|
|action2=PR |
|
|action2date=January 22 2007 |
|
|action2date=January 22 2007 |
|
|action2link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Electronic voice phenomenon |
|
|action2link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Electronic voice phenomenon/archive1 |
|
|action2result=Reviewed |
|
|action2result=Reviewed |
|
|action2oldid= |
|
|action2oldid= |
| Line 27: |
Line 25: |
|
| currentstatus = FGAN |
|
| currentstatus = FGAN |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|1= |
|
|
|
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Paranormal|past-collaboration=] ]-] ]}} |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=Mid}} |
| ⚫ |
{{Wikiproject Paranormal|class=B|past-collaboration=] ]-] ]|nested=yes|...}} |
|
|
{{Rational Skepticism|class=B|importance=Mid|nested=yes|...}} |
|
{{WikiProject Spirituality|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{Spirituality project|class=B|importance=|nested=yes|...}} |
|
{{WikiProject Death|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Psychology}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} |
|
|
|maxarchivesize = 150K |
|
|
|counter = 18 |
|
|
|minthreadsleft = 3 |
|
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|
|algo = old(100d) |
|
|
|archive = Talk:Electronic voice phenomenon/Archive %(counter)d |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{archives}} |
|
|
__TOC__ |
|
__TOC__ |
|
<br style="clear:both;"/> |
|
<br style="clear:both;"/> |
|
|
|
|
|
== We were on a roll... == |
|
== invention of telephone == |
|
|
|
|
We were on a roll with improving this article. Why did it all of a sudden stop? We need to stat discussing the next section now. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I have to be gone for a few days starting tomorrow. I may be able to drop by, but I likely can't do any major editing. I should be back fully by the 10th or 11th. The article has been pretty stable, so there shouldn't be any reason to hurry. ——''']'''</span><sub> (] Ψ ])</sub> 04:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Failed GA == |
|
|
|
|
|
After reading the article, ]'s comments this talk page and some news articles it's clear that this article is not up to the GA standard. |
|
|
|
|
|
While it is reasonably well written, appears to be largly accurate and verifyable it fails on a few counts |
|
|
*Neutral point of view - not only is the article tagged as disputed but the balance in the article does not reflect the view of the larger world. The article does not adequately present the mainstream viewpoint on EVP and the lead in particular is not neutrally written. At the very least I would expect an entire paragraph of the lead presenting the mainstream view that this is a fringe, unreal phenomenon. The lead for ] is not a bad guide (though not a great one either ) |
|
|
*Well written - there are lots of convoluted parts that need copyediting. Sentences like ''The question of whether or not audio recordings thought to be EVP are just noise mistaken by an individual listener to be words, or actually form words, has been addressed with the use of listening panels''' are unduly difficult to read. |
|
|
*Factual - the '''Criticism''' section appears to be a ] of viewpoints created in wikipedia. There are other sections that also seem to suffer from this problem |
|
|
*Style - at the least the references need to follow a common style. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I do suggest that the balance between proponents and criticism be clearly looked at. The article needs to settle down, the article made neutral then best to go to peer review. --] ] 11:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Thank you, we will take your points into consideration. |
|
|
|
|
|
:The article lead already has 1/3 space devoted to the skeptical point of view, as you suggest- a full paragraph. The lead is already much more devoted to being skeptical than Flat Earth, in my reading. The difference here is that the Flat Earth idea has been specifically (sourcably) studied and refuted by science, and EVP has not. |
|
|
|
|
|
:We do need to make the sentences easier to understand, I can see that. |
|
|
|
|
|
:Our problem here is that we can find lots of sources for EVP, and almost none for skepticism. The article is factually written, and I believe that it is NPOV in the sense that the paranormality of EVP is not promoted. But the skepticism section is probably OR as you say. |
|
|
|
|
|
:If you think there is a POV expressed in the article, could you tell us how to fix it? We have been unable to source the "view of the larger world" you speak of, because EVP is ignored by nearly everyone except proponents. Thus, there just isn't any view at all, that we can source, anyway. That's why the skepticism section has OR. What would you suggest we do? Should we perhaps be more clear than we already are when we say that |
|
|
|
|
|
::"Mainstream science has generally ignored EVP, but there are a number of non-paranormal explanations, which account for EVP by such mechanisms as radio interference or the tendency of the human brain to recognize patterns in random stimuli. These include:" |
|
|
|
|
|
:This has been one of the main quandaries of the article, and anything you can think of to solve this problem would be welcome. ——''']'''</span><sub> (] Ψ ])</sub> 02:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
That is a problem ... and looking at the talk page battle+mediation case not one that will be simple to fix. I've browsed through a few pages of google books/scholar with no enlightenment as mainstream science seems to ignore it. It seems treated the same way as the Flat Earth theory but without the timespan that would allow reliable sources. This complete lack of interest or comment by the science establishment or the press needs to the made clear in the article. Although this needs work the following reads far better as a NPOV lead: |
|
|
:'''Electronic voice phenomena''' (EVP) are speech or speech-like sounds, inaudible during recording, that some paranormal researchers claim to detect on electronic recordings. There is no mainstream scientific support for the claim although reporting of EVP in relation to hauntings is common in the press. As claimed by the paranormal community they are typically brief, usually the length of a word or short phrase and are sometimes claimed to be in direct response to the questions of researchers. The phenomena has been reported on diverse media, including: radio, hamradio, television, tape recorders and videorecorders. The term was coined by publishing company Colin Smythe Ltd in the early 1970s. Previously the term “Raudive Voices” was used, after Dr. Konstantin Raudive, an early researcher. References to EVP have appeared in the reality television show Ghost Hunters, the fictional Supernatural and the Hollywood films White Noise and The Sixth Sense as well as literature including the novels Legion and Pattern Recognition. EVP are a subset of the paranormal field of instrumental transcommunication. |
|
|
Bits that are not well suited to a neutral point of view in the lead: |
|
|
*''Critics of Electronic voice phenomena'' - implies that there is an argument and criticism rather than proposition on on hand and dismissal as a nonscientific fringe theory on the other. |
|
|
*''The phenomena has been observed'' - implies that something has really been observed. ''As claimed by the paranormal community'' states the case far better |
|
|
*The entire third paragraph of the lead reads as Original research |
|
|
--] ] 07:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The telephone is the oldest technology that was used for EVP. |
|
:Thanks (: Your lead is accurate in a lot of ways, but doesn't quite get to the heart of the matter, which is that everyone agrees that the sounds are detectable. And that they sound like speech to some people. The only controversy in connection with EVP is whether it is paranormal. So the way you have it written, it's as if only paranormal researchers detect the sounds, and that's not true. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
With the invention of ] there was first time a device that could transmit human voices over long distance and convert between sound waves and electric signals. So in the telephone research labs of ], people first time perceived yet unheard electric noise phenomena turned into sound through the phone receiver. |
|
:It's a very difficult definition, and I don't know how to modify your intro really. To be purely NPOV, we'd have to say it this way: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bell himself was agnostic but sympathized with ] belief. Particularly he was engaged in spiritualism and attempted to contact his dead brothers. Although his assistant ] made ]s as a medium, Bell sought scientific truth, so questioning fake stage magic tricks of psychics and the human tendency of self-delusion, he struggled to use his acoustics knowledge to develop technical means to directly communicate with the spirit realm - hoping to create a tool for more objective answers. Reports of his experimental discoveries raised interest in spiritualist groups; so e.g. "phone-voyant" mediums claimed to hear ghost voices in the crackling noises of early telephones. |
|
::::There has been no mainstream scientific investigation or support of EVP, although reporting of EVP is common in the press. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Later ] challenged Bell and ] who can first build a ]. Although no device was found, the invention of telephone (talking to a person without seeing etc.) remained associated with ghosts. E.g. the German language word "anrufen" (to make a phone call) was previously solely used for calling a god or spirit being. |
|
:There are critics, such as Randi and Carroll, but they are not scientists. So there is indeed argument and criticism, but not within science. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
* https://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/opinion/columnists/mabel-tells-bell-about-her-belief-in-spiritualism |
|
:The phenomena has been observed, there is no argument about that. The argument is over whether it is paranormal, or just various forms of normal or psychological stuff. |
|
|
|
* https://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/opinion/columnists/bell-discusses-spiritualism-with-mabel-i-havent-a-particle-of-belief |
|
|
* https://www.ozy.com/true-and-stories/the-greatest-turn-of-the-century-inventors-really-wanted-to-talk-to-ghosts/221925/ |
|
|
* https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/dial-a-ghost-on-thomas-edisons-least-successful-invention-the-spirit-phone |
|
|
* https://www.salon.com/2017/10/08/who-you-gonna-call-edison-and-the-science-of-talking-to-ghosts/ |
|
|
|
|
|
|
] (]) 19:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC) |
|
:I'm not responsible for the 3rd paragraph. But as far as I can see it isn't OR, and is supported by skeptical sources- I think. See . ——''']'''</span><sub> (] Ψ ])</sub> 02:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:: ] of sources, none of which explicitly discuss the article topic (EVP). ] (]) 20:17, 16 June 2022 (UTC) |
|
Sorry Martin, you're wrong about a few things. Peripitus is right when he describes EVP as a proposition, not a fact. The human brain's pattern recognition abilities and psycho-acoustic paradolia effects are not called "EVP" by the scientific community. EVP is a fringe claim of paranormal enthusiasts, as described by . - ] 05:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
::: The early telephone laboratories first time researched technology for transmission of voices through electricity; hence the historical spiritualist application of that knowledge is by definition even the origin of EVP research. Therefore this clearly belongs to the core topic of this article. ] (]) 16:11, 17 June 2022 (UTC) |
|
:Minus the superciliousness- that's correct. To be very clear about it, EVP is a paranormal interpretation of anomalies. I proposed a nice lead which made this very clear, but it was not accepted. We could say something like this, it would be fine with me. But the anomalies exist, and there is no dispute about that- the dispute is over whether they are paranormal.... which is exactly what I said above. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Instrumental Transcommunication (ITC) == |
|
:Note to Peripitus: the whole thing has often gotten mixed up. In my opinion, EVP is a paranormal interpretation of anomalies, but the language often gets messed up to where we're arguing over whether EVP exist or not, and defining EVP as the anomalies themselves. Sorry for any confusion. ——''']'''</span><sub> (] Ψ ])</sub> 05:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ITC not mention? EVP is part of ITC. |
|
::"Anomalies" imply things abnormal, or difficult to classify. There is no discussion of audio recording "anomalies" or abnormalities in electrical engineering, audio recording, or physics journals or textbooks. And those publications would be the kind of authoritative sources we'd need to reference if Misplaced Pages was to state that some particular type of audio anomalies exist and can be interpreted as paranormal or normal. However, it would be OK to state that these EVP experimenters believe that they are finding audio anomalies in sound recordings which they interpret as EVP. - ] 09:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
~~ED~~ ] (]) 21:14, 26 April 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
: It’s mentioned 3 separate times in the article. ] (]) 22:47, 26 April 2023 (UTC) |
