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Revision as of 14:41, 26 October 2007 editCarcharoth (talk | contribs)Administrators73,550 edits →Notability of articles: reply, bow out of thread← Previous edit Latest revision as of 08:30, 10 October 2024 edit undoChiswick Chap (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers295,838 edits →Maria Skibniewska: r 
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* The problem with this roll call is that not everyone who signs up on the main page signs up here. ] 15:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
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* Present --] 01:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
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* I'm here -] ]'''\'''] 16:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
* Hi --<font face="Bradley Hand ITC" size="3">] <sub>]</sub></font> 18:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
* Maybe we should have a newsletter and send it to everyone? That would be an excuse to trawl through the archives and sort out what has been done and what still needs doing (lots!). ] 21:40, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
* In a state of limbo between activity and inactivity... —''']''' 01:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
* Here ] 10:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


== ] ==
===Issues===


New article you may enjoy - translated b/c of my suggestion. A Polish translator of Tolkien works. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 07:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
====Deletion proposals====
:Strike out expired proposals with <nowiki><s></s></nowiki> and note result. ] 15:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


:@] Close to a GA level, perhaps? I could help a bit with Polish sources or such if you'd like to work on that. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 07:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
=====Images=====
::I think it's splendid: good work! But it's more like yours, you should take it to GAN, not me – all you have to do is to work in some of the Polish sources as it's already of a decent standard. In any case, as you can see above, my GAN queue stretches back six months or more, and in fact I'm successively dropping Middle-earth GANs as I work biological topics up to GA. Who knows, I might even review the article! All the best, ] (]) 08:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

=====Articles=====
*]
*]
*]
*] <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

=====Redirects=====

=====Templates=====

=====Categories=====

=====Already deleted=====

====Articles newly made/found====
'''Please ensure these are all added to ].''' This is a list of all the pages related to the project, to allow ] to be used to watch changes to all the pages - please add template, categories and similar pages to that list as well. Though there should be periodic attempts to redo the list in a comprehensive fashion, keeping it up-to-date manually will be a great help. If you are uncertain about whether a page belongs there, list it at ]. Please also ensure that {{tl|ME-project}} is added on the talk page of new articles, try to give them an initial assessment, and place them in the correct categories. The top level categories are ] and ]. ] 16:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

==== Move/merge proposals ====
*] should probably be merged into ]. ] 15:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
:Hi! I'm here too (currently). Done the suggested merge - article still needs work. Also pictures in article are 'not the best' - if anyone has any better.. See the talk page for anything else.. ?] 12:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
:Question - article uses the term "The Valian Years" - is this in common use - seems to be about the first age??] 13:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
*] should probably be merged into ], and possibly ].] 15:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

==== Redirects reorganised ====

Have a look at ]! Some great work has been done there by ], showing how our redirects should be organised, and the advantages of such organisation, showing how redirects to lists and sections can really help organise merged lists and avoid having hundreds of short stubs. This also reduces the amount of material that needs assessing as well, once the "merge era" is finished. ] 11:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
:Inspired by that, I created and have started to populate ]. ] 15:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
::Could I suggest making additions to the redirect page, rather than creating new articles - I'm sure 'spiders of mirkwood' would make a fine addition to the article mirkwood, but might not stand as well on it's own..] 13:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

==== Best articles ====

Currently we have 15 articles that are considered examples of the best articles we have. I am going to list them below so that people can enjoy reading them, help improve them, and have a model for articles they work on. These are from ] (] is a separate peer reviewed process); ] (examples of the best articles we have - effectively an internal wikiproject assessment); ] (the ] process is a separate review process). I haven't included any of the 85 current B-class articles at ], but if any of those are ''especially'' good in your opinion, please re-assess, or list or discuss below. Also, please raise any concerns you have with these articles below, though remember to take extensive discussions to the article talk pages. It would be nice to update this every couple of months to see what progress is being made. ] 12:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

'''FA, A, and GA articles''':

*] (FA)
*] (FA)
*] (FA)
*] (FA)

*] (A)
*] (A)
*] (A)
*] (A)
*] (A)
*] (A) and (GA)
*] (A) ''(former FA)''
*] (A)
*] (A) and (GA)
*] (A)

*] (GA)
*] (GA)
*''plus two GAs listed under (A)''

'''Discussion'''
*What do people think of putting Faramir up for GA? —''']''' 01:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

==== Models for merges ====

There are some articles that I think are good models for how to merge material from stubs and reference it (well, at least in some cases). If you see any articles that you like the look of, please add them below. ] 22:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

*] - lots of stubs merged here
*] (nice layout)
*] (not as good a layout as the others)
*] (different style)
*] (same style as for the hobbit list)
*] (poor list)
*] (yet another style)
See also ]. Anyone have any thoughts about the advantages and disadvantages of these different styles? ] 22:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

==== Another assessment/merging drive? ====

Well, I say another, though the previous one never really took off... I noticed that some people are busy merging and assessing articles, and as you can see from ], the number of assessed articles (534) is close to overtaking the number of unassessed articles (603). So let's aim to cross the halfway stage soon! Remember to consider merging ''before'' you assess something, as assessing is pointless if the article is later merged. Any questions, please ask. ] 21:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

==== New images process ====

See ]. ] 03:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

==== Discussion in progress ====
:Carried over from last archive. ] 15:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Discussion taking place at ], in case anyone is interested. ] 13:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

==== Notability of articles ====

I have just examined over a dozen articles in ], and not one of them can anywhere near meeting the notability requirements set out in ]. I have tagged the articles accordingly with {{tl|nn}} etc, in the hope that editors may be able to produce references which demonstrate notability. May I remind participants in this project that not every detail of Tolkein's works is notable, and that notability needs to be demonstrated for each article by external sources (i.e. not just by citations from Tolkein's works). It would be a pity to see so much writing being deleted, but that's what's likely to happen unless references are forthcoming.

It maybe better to merge many of these small articles into a limited number of much bigger articles for which suitable secondary references are available. --] <small>] • (])</small> 02:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

*PS Item 7 of ] appears to discourage editors from citing secondary sources, and also refers to "valid conclusions drawn based on primary sources" (which conflicts with ] and ]). I suggest that the references section should be rewriitten to better reflect wikipedia policies, particularly with regard to the essential requirement of non-trivial coverage in muktiple sources independent of the subject. --] <small>] • (])</small> 02:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

::Hi BrownHairedGirl. You've made a logical, but incorrect, assumption about the sequence of events. This Wikiproject was not responsible for the creation of the vast number of articles on minor elements of Tolkien lore in Misplaced Pages. The articles came first, most from the earliest days of Misplaced Pages, and then the Wikiproject was created to try to bring some sort of order and encyclopedic treatment to the chaos. That which you seek to 'remind' us of is, in fact, a major focus of this project... working on references and merging articles. However, there is ALOT of material to be recast. As to the 'primary sources' issue you cite; The "valid conclusions drawn beased on primary sources" wording you quote is referring to when ''secondary'' sources should be used... for interpretations and conclusions. The intent was that when you are citing a reference for simple facts (e.g. the color of Gloin's beard in the stories) it is better to cite the primary source. When you are citing a reference for 'interpretation' (e.g. the 'meaning' of the various different colors of the Dwarves' beards) a secondary source is needed... as they also are to establish notability. This is consistent with Misplaced Pages's sourcing policies. --] 13:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
:::There are a lot of articles which the problematic ones can be merged into, like how ] was merged into ] (which sports a notability tag!). We have ], ], and ]. However, where should we merge these into? For example, ] and ] are just regions of ], but do they go in ], or ]? ] 17:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

{deindent) Thanks for the replies, and sorry if I had misunderstood the history of the articles. Good to know that a cleanup is underway :)

Thanks to CBD for clarifying intent of the guidelines; that make sense, although there is a danger that it could be interpreted as encouraging ]. It might be a good idea to clarify that, and wouldn't it be a good idea to add a section to the referencing guidelines stressing the importance of secondary sources to establish notability?

Good luck with all the mergeing &mdash; there is a lot of work to do there, and not just in combing articles. Even the article ] currently has no secondary sources to establish notability, and I do wonder whether deletion may be a better solution in many cases. There has clearly been a lot of work put into creating all this material, but so far it hasn't been shown to meet wikipedia's notability criteria. I haven't scanned all the all the sub-categories, but so far I don't see any articles in ] which pass ]. --] <small>] • (])</small> 19:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

:I clarified the confusion up in ME:S, taken from the words of CBD - who explains it so much better than I could've. If anyone else wants to expand on the importance of secondary sources to establish notability, feel free to do so. In any case, there are a LOT of articles that need proper referencing and clean up and so on, so progress might be slow - but hopefully, we'll get there. Thanks for your comments, BrownHairedGirl.

:As for whether or not to place Lamedon and Lossarnarch in Gondor, or Minor places of Middle-earth - that's a tricky question. Perhaps we could discuss it very briefly in Gondor, and expand on it in Minor places of Middle-earth... Or alternatively, we could just keep it in Gondor and only use Minor places of Middle-earth only when the section describing the various regions of Gondor gets too long. The small but subtle difference between the first option and second one is that while placing the the regions of Gondor in the list is a certainy, it will not always be the case for the secondary option. Based on ], I think the second option follows the guideline more closely. What do the other members think about this? —''']''' 01:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
::Mirlen, at the risk of labouring the point, it seems to me that you might be putting the cart before the horse. A decision on whether or not to merge seems to me to be premature if notability has not been established even for the merge target; you may be putting a lot of work into something which will ultimately be deleted.
::I have just noticed that some of the {{tl|nn}} and {{tl|primarysources}} tags which I had added to these articles have been removed. I won't edit war, but will nominate at AfD any articles which do n not meet ] and for which these tags have been removed. The first is ] (see ]), but there are several others to follow. This is a pity, because I would have much preferred to give you good folks plenty more time to find sources, but if the tags are removed, then I have to conclude that editors find the article satisfactory as they are, in which case the AfD process is needed. --] <small>] • (])</small> 07:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Did you discuss the removal of the tags with the editor who removed them? I will see what I can do for the articles in question after the weekend, but I will note that if the long-term goal is merging, then AfD is disruptive because if I had arrived at the article without an AfD notice I personally might have merged. Now an AfD notice is there, I cannot merge. Actually, none of the articles nominated are merge candidates, but the point still needs to be made. Asking for sources is more than acceptable, and is really helpful, but in future if an editor removes tags that you add, could you discuss it with them before going straight to AfD? ] 09:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
::::How about doing this the other way around: that instead of leaving it outsiders like me to challenge the lack of evidence of notability, this project starts its ''own'' systematic process of tagging articles for which notability has not been clearly established through multiple non-trivial references to sources ''independent'' of the subject, and reinstating any such tags which are improperly removed for spurious reasons, such as because the article mentions Tolkiens' son and literary executor? You mentioned at AfD that this is a large and active wikiproject, so I'm sure that it would be easy to ensure that this tagging is maintained.<br />And I'm sorry, but AfD does ''not'' disrupt a possible merger: "merge to X" is perfectly legitimate outcome of an AfD. Personally, I have no axe to grind either way about merger; my sole concern is whether the articles meet the notability guidelines. As stated at AfD, I would be happy to withdraw the nominations ''if'' this wikiproject starts the work of ensuring that its articles demonstrate notability, but so far don't see that &mdash; all I see is resentment at the notion that notability needs to be ''demonstrated through references per ] and ]'' rather than merely taken as axiomatic. I do hope that we will get to the point where I can withdraw these nominations, but we're not there yet. I hope the gap isn't as big as it currently looks. --] <small>] • (])</small> 13:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::Please read the project talk page archive to see what we have been doing. Not terribly well organised and not immensely productive. But some, slow progress is being made. Also, I did not say "All these articles are supported by a large and active WikiProject" - it was TCC who said that. If you are going to say that I've said something, please attribute correctly. The main focus has been merging, but you are quite right to say that the notability part has been neglected. Would you like to join the WikiProject and help us? Finally, I think merging is sometimes an obvious solution that should come ''before'' AfD. But the implication of an AfD is that deletion is "on the table", so merging cannot take place during the AfD, and if deletion takes place, then merging is no longer possible. Getting stuff undeleted at DRV to perform a merger is a pain, but is sometimes the only option if AfD neglect the merge option. I understand that some articles should be deleted instead of merged, but the initial merging decision should be editorial, not a community-driven AfD decision. ] 13:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::Sorry about the misattribution, that was careless of me. But, no I'm, not sufficiently interested in the subject to join the project. I happened to chance upon one nn and unreferenced article, and a quick check found loads more, so I didn't just tag them, I came here to explain why I had done so, which I hoped would be seen as a friendly and helpful thing to do. In the same spirit I have offered to withdraw the AfDs ''if'' this project starts its own work of checking notability. Anyway, I expect that's all from me for a few days. Good luck! --] <small>] • (])</small> 14:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::OK, thanks. That's it from me as well. ] 14:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

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Maria Skibniewska

New article you may enjoy - translated b/c of my suggestion. A Polish translator of Tolkien works. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap Close to a GA level, perhaps? I could help a bit with Polish sources or such if you'd like to work on that. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
I think it's splendid: good work! But it's more like yours, you should take it to GAN, not me – all you have to do is to work in some of the Polish sources as it's already of a decent standard. In any case, as you can see above, my GAN queue stretches back six months or more, and in fact I'm successively dropping Middle-earth GANs as I work biological topics up to GA. Who knows, I might even review the article! All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
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