Misplaced Pages

Talk:Controversies about the word niggardly: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 21:33, 22 December 2007 editComradeash (talk | contribs)404 edits →Niggardly/Nigger← Previous edit Latest revision as of 02:41, 21 September 2024 edit undo2601:205:457d:6ca0:e413:9bcf:9c79:51a1 (talk) →Exact meaning of niggardly: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply 
(227 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header}}
{{WikiProject United States|class=Start|importance=Low}}
{{Project afro|importance=low|class=start}}
{{controversial}} {{controversial}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|
{{WikiProject United States|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject English Language}}
{{WikiProject African diaspora}}
{{WikiProject Politics}}
}}
{{pp-move-indef}}
{{Transwiki to Wiktionary Finished}} {{Transwiki to Wiktionary Finished}}
{{Old AfD multi|result1='''Keep'''|date1=1 July 2005|page1=Niggardly|result2='''Keep'''|date2=14 March 2007|page2=Niggardly (2nd nomination)}}
{{multidel
{{Old moves
|list=
| collapse = true
* '''Keep''', 1 July 2005, ]
| title1 = Niggardly
* '''Keep''', 14 March 2007, ]
| title2 = Controversies about the word niggardly
| title3 = Controversies about the word "niggardly"
| title4 = Controversies concerning the word "niggardly"
| list =
* RM, Niggardly → Controversies about the word niggardly, '''Moved''', 17 March 2007, ]
* Controversies about the word niggardly → Niggardly, '''Moved''', 22 June 2007, No discussion
* RM, Niggardly → Controversies about the word niggardly, '''Moved''', 25 June 2007, ]
* Controversies about the word niggardly → Controversies about the word "niggardly", '''Moved''', 6 August 2007, No discussion
* Controversies about the word "niggardly" → Controversies concerning the word "niggardly", '''Moved''', 2 January 2009, No discussion
* RM, Controversies concerning the word "niggardly" → Controversies about the word "niggardly", '''Moved''', 4 January 2009, ]
* RM, Controversies about the word "niggardly" → Niggardly, '''No consensus''', 4 December 2011, ]
* RM, Controversies about the word "niggardly" → Controversies about the word niggardly, '''Moved''', 1 July 2019, ]
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
| algo=old(90d)
| archive=Talk:Controversies about the word niggardly/Archive %(counter)d
| counter=1
| maxarchivesize=200K
| archiveheader={{Automatic archive navigator}}
| minthreadsleft=10
| minthreadstoarchive=1
}} }}


Line 12: Line 39:
Was he forced to resign, or did he offer to resign? I sort of thought it was the latter. -] 1 July 2005 15:41 (UTC) Was he forced to resign, or did he offer to resign? I sort of thought it was the latter. -] 1 July 2005 15:41 (UTC)


== Old Norse etymology ==
==Nig-nog==
(school master reprimanded for referring to two black pupils and an Asian classmate as being "in the nig-nog corner") might be of interest to anyone reading around the subject. Far less defensible than "niggardly", of course, or maybe the teacher had been asleep for a generation or two. ] 5 July 2005 00:42 (UTC)


I the etymology, going by . Previously we had misrepresented "niggla" as an Old Norse word, but that is instead a more modern Scandinavian version of the Old Norse "hnǫggr". This is the previously cited source that I removed: <small>{{cite book |author=Bryan A. Garner |title=Garner on Language and Writing |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=9_PdSrVNTUUC |accessdate=March 21, 2013|date=March 31, 2009 |publisher=] |isbn=978-1-61632-679-1 |pages=236–238 |chapter=Words, Words, Words—and Race }}</small>, it may still contain some valuable information if someone has access to it even though the etymology was a bit off. --] (]) 12:21, 2 July 2019 (UTC)


:That's not quite precise, either. The modern word is ''nigla'' 'to be stingy', specifically Norwegian, and probably the source of English '']''. The Old Norse word is ''hnøggr'' and descends from Proto-Germanic ]. It's not really clear how ''nigla'' (which is evidently not Old Norse because it would have to start in ''hn-'' then, ''if'' it related to ''hnøggr'', that is) could be a derivation from ''hnøggr'' < ''*hnawwa-''; it could (perhaps) only derive from an (unattested) Old Norse reflex of the Proto-Germanic verb ], with an ''-e-'' in the root. Unless, of course, ''hnøggr'' with its unexpected ''ø'' is instead itself a descendant from a Proto-Germanic adjective ''*hnewwa-'' with ''-e-'' rather than ''-a-''; in dialects without the w-umlaut, it could have been ''**hniggr'', and from a stem ''**(h)nigg-'', a derivation like Modern Norwegian ''nigla'' is plausible indeed. --] (]) 17:35, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


== Once again the word trips someone up, but the problem identified was that he went on to use that other word, several times ==
This is blatently racist:
Ironically, the only thing this incident accomplished was to prove the stereotype that black people are uneducated.


Should this be included? At first I thought it was his anachronistic explanation of Shakespearean language, a mistake an English teacher should be expected to not make, but apparently what a student and parents took offense at was that he went on to use the other word, multiple times.
: yes, that was vandalism by {{vandal|Tony Luigi}}. Apologies for not catching it. I have blocked him indefinitely. &mdash; ]|] 21:29, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/08/30/an-english-teacher-who-misexplained-niggardly-now-faces-hearing-keep-his-job/
:: Oh fuck you. If you people would get your "politically correct" heads out of your asses and report the truth for a change, you'd see the obvious message being conveyed here. Maybe it didn't ''prove'' the stereotype but it only served to further prove that people are so fucking uptight that they have to get offended at every fucking thing. The last time someone said something that upset a white person, he brought it up, the "offender" said "That's not what that word means," and the "offended" dropped it. But because the "offended" is a nigger, he's got to raise all fucking hell about it. Well fuck that. Fuck it all to fucking freedom. Fuck fuck fuck! ] 02:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
::: Are you racists magnetically attracted to this page because it sounds like ''nigger'' ? If your point is (and this is a leap, you are pretty convoluted in your language) that black people are uneducated maybe you could argue this from a position of strength, and not come out with such a load of ignorant, uneducated, unintelligent and illogical drivel. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 20:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->


:It all started last school year during a class reading of Shakespeare’s “Macbeth.”
==Niggardly/Nigger==


:A student stumbled upon a line in the play that included the word “niggardly”. Quinlisk paused the reading and started a class discussion about the word.... He told them “niggard” is related to the racial slur, and he allegedly said the n-word multiple times during the discussion.
is the comparison, or mention of the two words necessary? As is clear they have nothing to do with one another in meaning and have completely different roots. It is just testament to some people's ignorance that the assosiation has been formed. Should we therefore on this precedent mention that people in Britain harrassed a paediatrician thinking she was a paedophile in the article about paediatricians? It really has nothing to do with the subject matter ... It is an ancient word that appears in Utopia by Thomas More, among many other works and has absolutely nothing to do with "]".
] 14:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:Anyone who makes the mistake and thinks that they are being racially insulted deserves to be humiliated. If someone uses a word they do not understand, try lookin in the dictionary, not jumping to conclusions.


It's not clear whether the kerfuffle is only due to the use of the racial epithet, although that only happened because of the teacher's response to the word "niggardly"
Seems relevant to me. Given that at least one guy lost his job over the word, I think Misplaced Pages would be remiss in not mentioning and clarifying it. The thing in Britain is a little more dubious (because unlike "niggardly" and "nigger," which are related only by coincidence, "paedophile" and "paediatrician" actually have the same Greek roots), but if people are going to get that confused, maybe so.
:I have heard of more confusion between pedant and paedophile, not least because the ill-eduacted prefer the spelling pedophile, and because the first syllable of pedant and paedophile are often pronounced thn the same way, whereas paedetrician is nore commonly pronounced pea-dee-a-trician, but also because pedant is not such a commonly used word.
::Referring to the entire United States and all who use US dictionaries as "ill educated" is not a way to win many friends on the internet. I would also say that the adjective form, pedantic, IS fairly commonly used. ] 22:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


: One student in the class, referred to as “student A”, and her mother complained to the school assistant principal. The student said she was uncomfortable and didn’t want to be in Quinlisk’s class anymore. The assistant principal testified and said the student was removed from the class. She also said no other students complained about the incident.
Why is this listed under the African diaspora? This article seems to establish that the only thing being niggardly has to do with being black is being an ignorant nigger! Haw haw haw. In either case, the relationship seems a little tenuous. ] (]) 21:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


Or whether the teacher's doctrinal mistake, as the definition of the word was also addressed in the hearing on possible discipline/response:
==Etymology of Nigger==


:A professor from St. John Fisher College testified, and said the word does not have the same roots. She said Quinlisk taught it wrong.
Now, this page lists it as "... from French ... from Spanish". It seems entirely ludicrous to propose that French needs to get a Latin word through Spanish, not to mention the failure to mention the Latin root. To boot, the pages for ] and ] agree with this assessment. Changing it. ] 04:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/local-news/brighton-teacher-accused-of-using-racial-slur-in-class/
== Requested move ==


Also, the WashPo article says: "In 2012, Sen. Sherrod Brown (D) was met with online controversy when he used the word on MSNBC to describe his fellow Congress members and their spending habits on veterans." Haven't had a chance to check up on that one. ] (]) 02:44, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
I think that this article ''should'' exist, but the title isn't right. Shouldn't the title be something like "Niggardly controversy"? ] 14:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


== Dick Cavett interviewing Muhammad Ali ==
:At the deletion discussion a good number of people wanted a change in the title, including me. It seems to me that since the word has become controversial at somewhat different times, it might be better to say "controversies", although they all seem to revolve around essentially the same issues. I'm not really sure whether "controversy" or "controversies" is better. I could accept either. ] 15:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
:There's a naming convention that prefers singular words to plural in Misplaced Pages article titles (here: ]), but I don't think it applies here. ] 15:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


Dick Cavett used the term and got a playful angry reaction from Ali while interviewing him in 1974. --] (]) 20:12, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure about plurals, but I'd prefer Controversies about the word Niggardly or something like that, just because niggardly is an adjective so in "Niggardly controversy" it looks like it's modifying the word controversy.] 17:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
:I didn't think of that. Good point. The title should be as short as possible, but that may be the shortest while also being the clearest. I guess the link from "Niggardly" will keep it accessable to people searching for something on this subject. If that link ever went, the article would be extremely difficult to find no matter what else we name it. The meaning of the title also fits the subject matter. You've capitalized "Niggardly" but we probably shouldn't, per Misplaced Pages naming policy. It's better that we don't put the word in quotes or italics (we probably can't put it in italics). Saying "the word" before "niggardly" makes it clear. I don't see a better substitute for "about" either: it's a good, plain word. Did you know there's a whole Misplaced Pages page not just on naming articles but on the use of capital letters in article names? It's ], but it all comes down to not using capital letters except for the first letter or in names. So: ] ] 19:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
::All right, just to make it more complicated, I used the Misplaced Pages "Search" and "Go" functions to look up "Controversies about", "Controversies on" and "Controversies over" and "over" is the word they use most. I personally like "about" but just so you all know, "over" is the word used more, if that matters. ] 19:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
:::I'd support "over" or "about". I agree that the article is primarily about the controversies rather than the word; and I agree with the need to avoid quotes and to avoid making "niggardly" appear to be a modifier in the title. ] ] 19:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
::::Lots of good info in this discussion on the name that I hadn't thought about. I really prefer shorter titles, but Chunky Rice is quite correct in his point about what looks like it is being modified. As to what preposition should be used, let me throw this suggestion out: ] ] 22:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


== Original Research ==
So, I'm fine with ]. Is there any consensus here? ] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' ] 19:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' ] ] 20:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


Unless we include a reputable source that refers to this subject as a whole - that the word use is now highly controversial owing to these incidents - I would be inclined to view this article as violating ].
Okay, I just took the initiative and moved the page since there didn't seem to be any singificant dissent about it.] 22:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


] (]) 21:56, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
== Sappy personal story - really needed? ==


:It's not claimed that the use of ''niggardly'' is controversial because of these incidents; the article simply documents controversies that occurred surrounding specific uses of the word. &ndash;]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;]) 22:25, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
The interjection about the newspaper editors in Ohio is cute, but does it really help our understanding of the topic? I don't think so, and would recommend its deletion. ] 14:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
:I agree; I went ahead and took it out. ] ] 14:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
::Cute and sappy don't do it for me either, but I think it shows how strong feelings can get about using the word, on both sides. That's why I included it. How many words that have a noncontroversial regular meaning can you say that about? It gives another example (and there aren't an enormous number) showing how offended people can get about it. Please reconsider. ] 23:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
:Hm. To me the story is interesting because it's not just about misunderstanding the word as most of the controversy is. It's about getting offended by the word, even understanding the roots and the fact that it has no racially based history. I think that we should keep it, with that context in mind. I realize that it spun out of the David Howard incident, but in that context it might integrate better into the last section, which I think needs some work, anyway.


==Edit request: Hatnote==
:At the very least, we should keep a link to the story as a reference. It's a good source.] 02:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
{{Edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}
A hatnote should be added to handle the other n-word term, as {{noredirect|niggard}} redirects here. This term is editfiltered, so someone with extended rights would need to add this hatnote. Please add:
<pre>
{{redirect-distinguish|Niggard|n i g g e r (disambiguation){{!}}n i g g e r|N-word (disambiguation){{!}}N-word}}
</pre>
{{redirect-distinguish|Niggard|n i g g e r (disambiguation){{!}}n i g g e r|N-word (disambiguation){{!}}N-word}}


You will note, that this can't even be properly spelled/requested, because of the edit filter. You will need to remove the spaces for the 6-letter word to make it work properly.
::Noroton, you have a reasonable point. I looked up the NYT reference and read it through; I remember reading that story when it came out. I think my question would be whether what it adds is what the article needs. If you decide to re-add it, I'd like to suggest that you mention that one columnist was African-American, and the other was white. Without that it wasn't clear that it was more than just a disagreement about editorial policy. The rest of that section mentions that almost all newspaper op-ed coverage argued for free use of the word; one of these columnists argued against it, so that might be a useful reference point.
::Having said all that, I am still not really sure it's all that useful to add it. The rest of the section already makes it clear it sparked a national debate and gave rise to strong feelings. Still, if you feel it adds value I won't contest it again.
::Thanks for the note to alert me to this, by the way. ] ] 02:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


-- ] (]) 21:20, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the input. Over the next week or so I'll look into it further and I may put it back in different form. Another thing I'd like to get in the article is more of the editorial comment on the overall subject. It was overwhelmingly against considering "niggardly" as a word people should be ashamed about, and we say that, but I think there should be more quotes and reporting on the reasons editorials gave. Thanks for the suggestions about the Ohio tiff. I'll try to incorporate them. ] 14:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


:{{Not done}}. A hatnote wouldn't be helpful here. &ndash;]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;]) 01:30, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
== Requested move back ==
::A lot of the article is about that very confusion. If that is so, then, it is obvious that there be a hatnoe -- ] (]) 04:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


I'm requesting a move back to ]. The article is not about the word itself as much as about the controversies that have been caused by use of the word. ] ] 13:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC) I oppose a hatnote. If they got here by mistake there are links in the first paragraph that could get them on track. ] (]) 06:02, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
::I don't oppose the re-naming since the top content has been changed to suit it's new name. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


== NPOV concerns ==
==Master of Ballantrae reference, other additions==
Among other additions recently added to the "See also" section, I found this, which I removed:


An off-wiki friend who is active in anti-racist work feels that this article fails ], and that its tone is, "OMG, those poor people who just used a cromulent old word, or stumbled across it in Shakespeare." Comments? --] &#124; ] 18:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
* ] - 1889 book by a Scottish author where one brother accuses another of being a niggerly dog.
:Does your friend have any specific recommendations or suggestions? I don't see a lack of neutral representation of the sources, so it would be helpful if they could point out where we fail to do so. ]&nbsp;] 18:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
::A person is reported, second hand, to find an article does not have adequately ]. That not automatically require a change in the article. A specific response could be considered if a specific point was cited. Misplaced Pages never has and never will never please everybody on the matter of neutrality. I am offended by the tone of some articles, but find that my opinion is dismissed. On we go... ] (]) 14:46, 13 January 2022 (UTC)


== Logical debating ==
If this is a case of "niggardly" being confused with "nigger" then, even though it might not be a controversy, it seems to me it would be of enough interest and related enough to the subject of this article that we could keep it in, but it would also have to be given an exact citation. And even then, the "See also" section is not the place for it. The article on Master of Ballantrae does not mention this. This article is about a sensitive subject, and we need exact citations even more for sensitive subjects. ] 03:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


Seems like this may need to be settled through debate. do not commit or and keep it civil! <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:31, 25 May 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Needless to say, if there's disagreement about this we should come to some consensus here about whether to keep it in or out of the article, which I certaily don't own. ] 04:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


== red herring ==
==Removal of paragraphs from top section==
I added a brief explanation about the meaning of "niggardly" in the top paragraph and removed these paragraphs from the top section, since I can't see how they are necessary to this article. All the confusion comes from a simple similarity in the way the words sound, not because there's a controversy about how the words came into being. The origins of the words belong in articles about the individual words, not here:


are people FEIGNING confusion here? the word is impossible to mistake for the N-word...BECAUSE OF THE -LY SUFFIX. the real issue should be over confusion and/or offense caused by the NOUN, "niggard".
:"Niggardly" (noun: "niggard") is an adjective meaning "stingy" or "miserly", related to the ] verb ''nigle''. It is cognate with "niggling", meaning "petty" or "unimportant", as in "the niggling details".


all of the people who insist upon their right to use niggardly (myself included) might still hesitate on the noun form. i cannot imagine calling a black mayor or a black shopkeeper or a black waitress "a niggard" under any circumstances. w/e incidents there have been to date would be 100-fold in intensity were we talking about the noun here.
:"Nigger" derives from the ]/] word ''negro'', meaning "black", and probably also the ] ''nègre'', which is likewise a racist insult derived from ''negro'' (the ordinary French word for "black" being ''noir''). Both ''negro'' and ''noir'' (and therefore also ''nègre'' and ''nigger'') ultimately come from ''nigrum'', the ] <!-- Nouns in Western Romance languages typically come from the accusative case, rather than the nominative case that we quote in English. --> form of the ] word ''niger'', meaning "black".


article should be moved to "Controversies_about_the_word_niggard", frankly. the "-ly" suffix renders the whole discussion moot. ] (]) 21:57, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
:The ] play '']'', written several centuries before the development of the racial slur, uses the word ''niggard'' in its proper context, and is often used to demonstrate the unrelatedness of the words.
{{wiktionary|niggard}}
:So do you have a citation for anyone using the noun "niggard" this century? . Or anyone being offended by its use? All the references in the article are to objections to use of the adjective{{snd}} either through mishearing or misunderstanding. Because if you don't, please see ] for your personal opinions. --] (]) 23:05, 16 June 2022 (UTC)


::i don't see "dated" or "archaic" or anything similar in the entry u link, and, in fact, it makes the very POINT at core here -- that the NOUN is the very form which could be legitimately confused.
If anyone objects to the removal, please discuss the matter here and we can come to a consensus. ] 04:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
::if u wish to quash said issue, don't go quoting evidence to SUPPORT me!! :o
::and why is this even a question? a capital B is oft confused for the number 8; is it ever confused for the numbers "18" or "82"?! apples to apples, man! ] (]) 23:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
:::I didn't seek to quash the issue on the grounds that the noun might be archaic but specifically that there is no evidence that any ] has used it and has been reported by ] as having been called out for doing so.
:::Perhaps it could happen but there is no evidence that it has and we don't speculate in articles about what might happen. The article reports the fact that people ''did'' take offence at the adjective being used and ''did not'' back down when their error was pointed out. I might privately speculate that they might well have wondered why the speaker did not choose the more obvious word "miserly", but my speculations don't belong on Misplaced Pages so I don't put it there. The same goes for your speculations: this is not a forum. --] (]) 23:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
::::these people that are claiming to be offended, are they implying the -ly is silent? or do they seriously think the speakers intended "n*ggerly"? u want ARCHAIC!
::::rather than the laughable claim of "phonetic similarity" between niggardly and the N-word (really a stretch), how about saying "phonetic similarity ''of the word's root''" to the N-word?
::::i would "be bold" and fix it, but i anticipate flak. so i propose it here. ] (])
:::::If you can fix it without violating policies ] and ], go right ahead.
:::::In all honesty, this topic is borderline trivia. I guess it must have been significant in the context of US culture wars and Twitter storms but in the real world it is a total non-event. I for one don't intend to spend any more time on it. --] (]) 12:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


"Niggard (14th C) is derived from the Middle English word nigon, which is probably derived from Old Norse hnǫggr and Old English hnēaw." Okay, but what did those words mean? Very important, especially since the citation is behind a paywall. ] (]) 20:33, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
There is no article about "niggard" other than this one, so that should be restored. There is simply a statement that "niggardly" and "nigger" have completely different origins, and that needs to be elaborated in the article. --] 17:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
:Stingy, all of them. See ]. ] (]) 04:00, 2 August 2023 (UTC)


== Exact meaning of niggardly ==
*I think that a brief etymology of both niggardly and nigger is appropriate, given the nature of the controversy. I removed the bit about Shakespear since I didn't see the relevance and it was a bit weasely. Who exactly are these people who use it as an example? We need a cite for all of it, but this in particular seemed suspect. -] 17:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


Fun fact about english, and all languages, every single word has an exact unique meaning. A niggardly person isn't just "stingy" in general, but to be very specific to be niggardly means you give the absolute minimum required and not one iota more. As compared to a stingy person who is hesitant to give anything at all or a miser who gives little because he wants to have a lot. ] (]) 05:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
== See also explanations ==


: "Every single word has an exact unique meaning": obvious nonsense. I planted a ''rose''. She ''rose'' from her chair. You seem to have invented your definition of "niggardly" too: I see your distinction in no published dictionary. ] (]) 17:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
An editor the explanations after the dot points in ], with the edit summary "We don't usually explain 'see also' items - the relevance should be obvious once the reader looks at the articles". ] states "provide a brief explanatory sentence when the relevance of the added links is not immediately apparent", which seems to be the case for ] and other links. So I'm restoring the descriptions, which help a user to decide whether they want to follow the individual links. &ndash;]<sup>(]•])</sup> 03:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
::I mean that's a very bad example. Two words spelled the same can still be different words. Not saying you're wrong, but I'd have chosen a better example. ] (]) 17:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
:On second thoughts, I changed to simpler descriptions which more clearly describe the relevance to this article. ] was linked in the article so I removed it, and ] says nothing about word meanings not in this article so I removed the suggestion that it did. &ndash;]<sup>(]•])</sup> 03:51, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
:::Either way a miser stingy or the absolute minimum i could get away with would be exactly how my effort would look like in a cotton field. The two words in question here probably kind of merged on a southern porch soaked in whiskey ] (]) 02:41, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:41, 21 September 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Controversies about the word niggardly article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 3 months 
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
This article is rated Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconUnited States Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconEnglish Language
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject English Language, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to the English language on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.English LanguageWikipedia:WikiProject English LanguageTemplate:WikiProject English LanguageEnglish Language
???This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
WikiProject iconAfrican diaspora
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconPolitics
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
This page has been transwikied to Wiktionary.
The article has content that is useful at Wiktionary. Therefore the article can be found at either here or here (logs 1 logs 2.)
Note: This means that the article has been copied to the Wiktionary Transwiki namespace for evaluation and formatting. It does not mean that the article is in the Wiktionary main namespace, or that it has been removed from Misplaced Pages's. Furthermore, the Wiktionarians might delete the article from Wiktionary if they do not find it to be appropriate for the Wiktionary.
Removing this tag will usually trigger CopyToWiktionaryBot to re-transwiki the entry. This article should have been removed from Category:Copy to Wiktionary and should not be re-added there.
Articles for deletionThis article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Logs and discussions:

Discussions:

Resignation

Was he forced to resign, or did he offer to resign? I sort of thought it was the latter. -R. fiend 1 July 2005 15:41 (UTC)

Old Norse etymology

I corrected the etymology, going by this book. Previously we had misrepresented "niggla" as an Old Norse word, but that is instead a more modern Scandinavian version of the Old Norse "hnǫggr". This is the previously cited source that I removed: Bryan A. Garner (March 31, 2009). "Words, Words, Words—and Race". Garner on Language and Writing. American Bar Association. pp. 236–238. ISBN 978-1-61632-679-1. Retrieved March 21, 2013., it may still contain some valuable information if someone has access to it even though the etymology was a bit off. --213.220.68.114 (talk) 12:21, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

That's not quite precise, either. The modern word is nigla 'to be stingy', specifically Norwegian, and probably the source of English (to) niggle. The Old Norse word is hnøggr and descends from Proto-Germanic *hnawwa-. It's not really clear how nigla (which is evidently not Old Norse because it would have to start in hn- then, if it related to hnøggr, that is) could be a derivation from hnøggr < *hnawwa-; it could (perhaps) only derive from an (unattested) Old Norse reflex of the Proto-Germanic verb *hnewwana-, with an -e- in the root. Unless, of course, hnøggr with its unexpected ø is instead itself a descendant from a Proto-Germanic adjective *hnewwa- with -e- rather than -a-; in dialects without the w-umlaut, it could have been **hniggr, and from a stem **(h)nigg-, a derivation like Modern Norwegian nigla is plausible indeed. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:35, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Once again the word trips someone up, but the problem identified was that he went on to use that other word, several times

Should this be included? At first I thought it was his anachronistic explanation of Shakespearean language, a mistake an English teacher should be expected to not make, but apparently what a student and parents took offense at was that he went on to use the other word, multiple times.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/08/30/an-english-teacher-who-misexplained-niggardly-now-faces-hearing-keep-his-job/

It all started last school year during a class reading of Shakespeare’s “Macbeth.”
A student stumbled upon a line in the play that included the word “niggardly”. Quinlisk paused the reading and started a class discussion about the word.... He told them “niggard” is related to the racial slur, and he allegedly said the n-word multiple times during the discussion.

It's not clear whether the kerfuffle is only due to the use of the racial epithet, although that only happened because of the teacher's response to the word "niggardly"

One student in the class, referred to as “student A”, and her mother complained to the school assistant principal. The student said she was uncomfortable and didn’t want to be in Quinlisk’s class anymore. The assistant principal testified and said the student was removed from the class. She also said no other students complained about the incident.

Or whether the teacher's doctrinal mistake, as the definition of the word was also addressed in the hearing on possible discipline/response:

A professor from St. John Fisher College testified, and said the word does not have the same roots. She said Quinlisk taught it wrong.

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/local-news/brighton-teacher-accused-of-using-racial-slur-in-class/

Also, the WashPo article says: "In 2012, Sen. Sherrod Brown (D) was met with online controversy when he used the word on MSNBC to describe his fellow Congress members and their spending habits on veterans." Haven't had a chance to check up on that one. Ileanadu (talk) 02:44, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Dick Cavett interviewing Muhammad Ali

Dick Cavett used the term and got a playful angry reaction from Ali while interviewing him in 1974. --rogerd (talk) 20:12, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Original Research

Unless we include a reputable source that refers to this subject as a whole - that the word use is now highly controversial owing to these incidents - I would be inclined to view this article as violating WP:OR.

I.am.a.qwerty (talk) 21:56, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

It's not claimed that the use of niggardly is controversial because of these incidents; the article simply documents controversies that occurred surrounding specific uses of the word. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 22:25, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Edit request: Hatnote

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

A hatnote should be added to handle the other n-word term, as niggard redirects here. This term is editfiltered, so someone with extended rights would need to add this hatnote. Please add: 

{{redirect-distinguish|Niggard|n i g g e r (disambiguation){{!}}n i g g e r|N-word (disambiguation){{!}}N-word}}
"Niggard" redirects here. Not to be confused with n i g g e r or N-word.

You will note, that this can't even be properly spelled/requested, because of the edit filter. You will need to remove the spaces for the 6-letter word to make it work properly.

-- 65.94.170.207 (talk) 21:20, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. A hatnote wouldn't be helpful here. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 01:30, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
A lot of the article is about that very confusion. If that is so, then, it is obvious that there be a hatnoe -- 65.94.170.207 (talk) 04:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I oppose a hatnote. If they got here by mistake there are links in the first paragraph that could get them on track. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:02, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

NPOV concerns

An off-wiki friend who is active in anti-racist work feels that this article fails WP:NPOV, and that its tone is, "OMG, those poor people who just used a cromulent old word, or stumbled across it in Shakespeare." Comments? --Orange Mike | Talk 18:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Does your friend have any specific recommendations or suggestions? I don't see a lack of neutral representation of the sources, so it would be helpful if they could point out where we fail to do so. Schazjmd (talk) 18:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
A person is reported, second hand, to find an article does not have adequately WP:NPOV. That not automatically require a change in the article. A specific response could be considered if a specific point was cited. Misplaced Pages never has and never will never please everybody on the matter of neutrality. I am offended by the tone of some articles, but find that my opinion is dismissed. On we go... Pete unseth (talk) 14:46, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Logical debating

Seems like this may need to be settled through debate. do not commit fallacies or bias and keep it civil! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Random kid who likes science (talk • contribs) 15:31, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

red herring

are people FEIGNING confusion here? the word is impossible to mistake for the N-word...BECAUSE OF THE -LY SUFFIX. the real issue should be over confusion and/or offense caused by the NOUN, "niggard".

all of the people who insist upon their right to use niggardly (myself included) might still hesitate on the noun form. i cannot imagine calling a black mayor or a black shopkeeper or a black waitress "a niggard" under any circumstances. w/e incidents there have been to date would be 100-fold in intensity were we talking about the noun here.

article should be moved to "Controversies_about_the_word_niggard", frankly. the "-ly" suffix renders the whole discussion moot. 2601:19C:527F:A680:4DB4:D125:F981:AEAD (talk) 21:57, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

So do you have a citation for anyone using the noun "niggard" this century? . Or anyone being offended by its use? All the references in the article are to objections to use of the adjective – either through mishearing or misunderstanding. Because if you don't, please see wp:Misplaced Pages is not a forum for your personal opinions. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:05, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
i don't see "dated" or "archaic" or anything similar in the entry u link, and, in fact, it makes the very POINT at core here -- that the NOUN is the very form which could be legitimately confused.
if u wish to quash said issue, don't go quoting evidence to SUPPORT me!! :o
and why is this even a question? a capital B is oft confused for the number 8; is it ever confused for the numbers "18" or "82"?! apples to apples, man! 2601:19C:527F:A680:4DB4:D125:F981:AEAD (talk) 23:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
I didn't seek to quash the issue on the grounds that the noun might be archaic but specifically that there is no evidence that any notable person has used it and has been reported by wp:reliable sources as having been called out for doing so.
Perhaps it could happen but there is no evidence that it has and we don't speculate in articles about what might happen. The article reports the fact that people did take offence at the adjective being used and did not back down when their error was pointed out. I might privately speculate that they might well have wondered why the speaker did not choose the more obvious word "miserly", but my speculations don't belong on Misplaced Pages so I don't put it there. The same goes for your speculations: this is not a forum. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
these people that are claiming to be offended, are they implying the -ly is silent? or do they seriously think the speakers intended "n*ggerly"? u want ARCHAIC!
rather than the laughable claim of "phonetic similarity" between niggardly and the N-word (really a stretch), how about saying "phonetic similarity of the word's root" to the N-word?
i would "be bold" and fix it, but i anticipate flak. so i propose it here. 2601:19C:527F:A680:4DB4:D125:F981:AEAD (talk)
If you can fix it without violating policies WP:no original research and WP: synthesis, go right ahead.
In all honesty, this topic is borderline trivia. I guess it must have been significant in the context of US culture wars and Twitter storms but in the real world it is a total non-event. I for one don't intend to spend any more time on it. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

"Niggard (14th C) is derived from the Middle English word nigon, which is probably derived from Old Norse hnǫggr and Old English hnēaw." Okay, but what did those words mean? Very important, especially since the citation is behind a paywall. Polar Apposite (talk) 20:33, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Stingy, all of them. See wikt:niggard#Etymology. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 04:00, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Exact meaning of niggardly

Fun fact about english, and all languages, every single word has an exact unique meaning. A niggardly person isn't just "stingy" in general, but to be very specific to be niggardly means you give the absolute minimum required and not one iota more. As compared to a stingy person who is hesitant to give anything at all or a miser who gives little because he wants to have a lot. 67.177.112.52 (talk) 05:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

"Every single word has an exact unique meaning": obvious nonsense. I planted a rose. She rose from her chair. You seem to have invented your definition of "niggardly" too: I see your distinction in no published dictionary. 2A00:23C5:FE56:6C01:5C4B:B84D:3215:24D9 (talk) 17:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
I mean that's a very bad example. Two words spelled the same can still be different words. Not saying you're wrong, but I'd have chosen a better example. 24.63.3.107 (talk) 17:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Either way a miser stingy or the absolute minimum i could get away with would be exactly how my effort would look like in a cotton field. The two words in question here probably kind of merged on a southern porch soaked in whiskey 2601:205:457D:6CA0:E413:9BCF:9C79:51A1 (talk) 02:41, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Categories: