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:''According to the U.S. Department of Justice, between 1979 and 1993 there were over 313 incidents of break-ins, vandalism, arson and thefts committed in the name of animal rights in the U.S.''

All break-ins, etc. done in the name of animal rights were not done by or in the name of the ALF. This seems like a misleading statistic to have in an article on the ALF and not on more general "animal rights movement". ] 04:04, Sep 25, 2003 (UTC)

==ALF spokespersons==
I edited this paragraph: "According to media sources, ALF spokespersons refuse to condemn violence by people who have previously acted in the name of the ALF, so long as they attempt no attribution of their violent acts to the ALF. For example, when David Blenkinsop, together with two other men who remain unidentified, severely beat ] director Brian Cass outside his home with 'staves' or 'pick-axe handles', ALF founder Ronnie Lee said of the victim "He has got off lightly. I have no sympathy for him." The ALF's 'decentralized resistance' model of organisation, with no formal membership or hierarchy, thus acts as a formal 'firebreak' in issues of legal responsibility (or moral accountability).

It said that Ronnie Lee is ALF founder and spokesperson, but I don't think he is a spokesperson, so I removed that, which leaves the paragraph with no reference, as I believe the reference cited only mentions Lee, whose views are known to be extreme and explicit. Does the editor who added this paragraph have a source for the first sentence i.e. a source that refers to recognized ALF spokespersons? ] 18:16, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

:Thanks for the steer, SV. I've added a quote from Robin Webb, which is better. The links between all these people are hard to be specific about, for obvious reasons. But I agree it's best to be precise. ] 19:04, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

::Ah. So now the Webb quote turns out to have been a misattribution - thanks for the input, anon! Perhaps you can advise whether or not this BBC quote by 'Tim Daley' is legit? ''"In a war you have to take up arms and people will get killed, and I can support that kind of action by petrol bombing and bombs under cars, and probably at a later stage, the shooting of vivisectors on their doorsteps. It's a war, and there's no other way you can stop vivisectors.'''' ] 23:27, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

An anon IP just inserted this into the intro: "It has been linked to ], which has circulated some of its propaganda tapes." I'm not sure it's appopriate for the intro in any event, but if it's to go anywhere in the article, it needs a reference. Many thanks, ] 23:34, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

==Template==
I've removed the anarchist template as the ALF is not an anarchist group (or any kind of group): activists claiming actions on behalf of the ALF come from across the political spectrum. Regarding the claimed link to PETA, that still needs a reference or it should probably be removed. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 10:07, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

==Reference required==
Plain regular ham, you keep adding: "ALF attempts to maintain an image of non-violent action, as the frequent incidents of violence accompanying their actions are always reported by ALF as instigated by their victims." You would need a reference to show that there are frequent incidents of violence committed by ALF activists, and that they claim the violence was initiated by their victims. Without a reference, it can't be allowed to stay. Many thanks, ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 17:30, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

:OK. I reworked the statements to your liking. I expect the BBC is reputable enough. ] 18:04, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)


== Terrorist Group ==
::You rewrote the edit to read: "However, ALF reports many violent incidents, consistently claiming that the violence was instigated by their victims." You need to find a reference that shows (a) that the ALF reports many violent incidents, and (b) that they consistently claim the violence was instigated by their victims." It's POV, which means we must attribute it. The BBC reference didn't say that, and in any event you used it to support a different edit, so I'm not sure what you mean. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 18:35, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
They have been cited as a Terrorist group along with the ELF for the over $110 million of damages, threats, intimidation, instructions on bomb making being made publicly available. Link: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-109shrg32209/html/CHRG-109shrg32209.htm
I note a large cadre of ALF apologists, constantly rewriting this page to paint this terror group in a glowing innocent light and adding in various retorts and claims of "false flag" operations, which would be laughable if this group's activities were not so serious and life endangering. Its damned shameful and no better than those who defend neo nazi groups <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:19, 1 December 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Engaging in ad hominem attacks and bad faith editing (see: ]) is not a good way to build a case for your preferred version of the article, and ], either.--] (]) 20:46, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


:::I am satisfied with your last revision, though I recall a page detailing claimed violence against activists. I have no problem leaving it out. ] 18:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Nah you are absolutely wrong. ALF is fully justified in all its actions ] (]) 14:32, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
== Reverts that are incorrect ==


== Voice of ALF ==
My edits keep getting reverted but there are multiple websites that support my claims.


ALF is a leaderless group with no membership or staff roster, and "ALF" has traditionally been used as a "banner" or "tag" for labelling an action as being "part of ALF" or "for ALF". As such, "it" (meaning ALF) doesn't have a voice, an opinion, or a viewpoint. Only people do. I reverted several edits which had been made that changed the ALF "voice" in the article. This is incorrect. ALF doesn't promote anything; only individuals (who might associate themselves with ALF) can promote, act, speak or have an opinion. ] (]) 22:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
A quick search on google will bring up the following along with many other articles:
:If you really want to be technical, no organization has a voice, only the people do. People who share the same opinions just use organizations to help promote their opinion, but that would be too tedious to constantly explain. While some organizations are leaderless and decentralized, that doesn't mean they're voiceless. Is BLM voiceless? Was the Occupy Movement voiceless? Of course not. In the ALF's case, it has spokespeople. It has a code, a philosophy, and it even has press offices! That is not a voiceless organization. We probably wouldn't even have this article if it was truly voiceless. ] (]) 23:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
*
::I wasn't referring to voice as in voicebox on a human, but closer to ]. An organization with no people, one that is just a loose collection of ideas/ideals, has no "voice". The actors associated with the organization ''can'' speak in a voice. The Misplaced Pages article needs to be written to keep that clear. I presume that's why ALF and similar organizations created a "press office" so they could actually "speak" in the voice of the organization. But that's not what's happening here in those edits you had changed. Those ideas/utterances were not from a "press office". ] (]) 05:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
*


== ARM content ==
Now, this page clearly needs to be NPOV. However, any attempts to show that the ALF is an ecoterrorism group get reverted. That is not right because wikipedia should provide accurate information. The ALF is discussed in other terrorism and ecoterrorism pages but those terms keep getting blocked from this page.


I removed some content about the actions on the ARM since it wasn't about the ALF, but this was reverted because discussion was wanted due to the size of the content removed. So, any reason why this content should be on this article instead of the ARM article? ] (]) 03:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Those of you who keep reverting, stop being dumbasses and suck it up. The ALF is clearly an ecoterrorism group, especially if it's recognized as one by the FBI.


:It looks like a section explaining the interrelationship between ALF, ARM and JD. There is this document that might explain further why the MARS poisoning event is in the ALF article. ] (]) 04:42, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
:I put the fact that the US government considers the group to be a terrorist group back in the article. We'll have to wait and see if it gets reverted or not. I included a link to the testimony on the FBI's web site.
::I understand that, but I'm talking about the paragraph of other events that happened later and were attributed to the ARM. ] (]) 04:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
:] 23:27, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)


:::I do not know what you're referring to. I only looked at the edit history, saw what you had deleted (and another editor reverted). It's the paragraph starting "From 1983 onwards". ] (]) 05:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
::JesseG, I reverted your edit because I think we need a quote if we're going to say that the group is a terrorist group. If you look at ], there is a reference to terrorism in the intro, because such references were prominent at the time of his conviction, but ''The Guardian'' is quoted as saying it, not Misplaced Pages, or unnamed critics. I've looked through the FBI reference, and I can't see where it explicitly says the ALF is a terrorist group, though I may have missed it. In fact, the FBI says in this statement that the ALF in the U.S. adheres to its policy of non-violence. Also, don't say the U.S. government if it's the FBI, unless you can find the ALF listed as a terrorist group by the State Dept, in which case we'd need a reference. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:54, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
::::Ugh! I hate these ALF articles. I see I got the wrong paragraph. It's all gibberish to me. These organizations "claim" this and that, and these are all history, so ignore my MARS explanation. I don't have enough brain cells left today to devote to this. ] (]) 05:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::It's all good. This article needs some work. So do you think the actual paragraph belongs in the ARM article instead?
::::::There's no reason a paragraph couldn't be in more than one article. I'm not inclined to read all that history just to answer whether it's ARM ''or'' ALF. It might well be both since these orgs often had a lot of crossover/overlap. ] (]) 00:29, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::::Should a paragraph on apples be used in an article about oranges? Also, if you're going to edit an article's content, you have a responsibility to at least read it. ] (]) 01:52, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::::: ]. ] (]) 02:14, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::That has to do with taking breaks. It is not justification to not understand what you're editing. ] (]) 02:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)


==NPOV tag== == FBI source ==
To the editor who placed the tag on the page, to use it properly, you have to list specific suggestions for change that are actionable within our policies. Also, please sign your posts. See ]] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:54, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)


] is not a useful addition to the article, especially as it was included in . We could reasonably summarize the content it has on ALF and include it as a reference, but we would need to be careful about using straightforward statements that hew to the primary source.
:I've expanded the article, done some reordering and copy editing, and added some images. I also found a quote for the "eco-terrorist" claim, which I put in the intro. I took the NPOV tag off because the person who added it hasn't left any comments. The tag isn't meant to be used hit-and-run style. If it's put back, please say ''specifically'' what you feel needs to be deleted, added, or rewritten. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> June 28, 2005 07:04 (UTC)


As it is, the image displayed is entirely unhelpful, and it's not accurate to say (as the caption currently does), that the FBI "associates the ALF with domestic terrorism", as the document itself is heavily hedged and never makes so broad a claim. Pinging {{u|Tryptofish}}, who recently reverted my removal. ] (] / ]) 19:00, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
==PETA==
:Not a big deal to me, so I self-reverted. --] (]) 19:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
We need a reputable reference for the claim that the U.S. ALF has a relationship with PETA, otherwise we'll have to remove it. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:56, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)


== Shouldn't we mention that at least one of these firebombings was actually an undercover cop ==
==Links==
Riobranden, we don't embed external links in articles. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> June 30, 2005 22:58 (UTC)
<br>SlimVirgin, it's not an external link..? I am genuinely confused. --]


Seems relevant. ] (]) 03:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
:Sorry, I've forgotten which one it was. Can you post it here? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> July 6, 2005 22:09 (UTC)
:We would need a source (reference). --] (]) 22:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 22:40, 15 October 2024

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Terrorist Group

They have been cited as a Terrorist group along with the ELF for the over $110 million of damages, threats, intimidation, instructions on bomb making being made publicly available. Link: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-109shrg32209/html/CHRG-109shrg32209.htm I note a large cadre of ALF apologists, constantly rewriting this page to paint this terror group in a glowing innocent light and adding in various retorts and claims of "false flag" operations, which would be laughable if this group's activities were not so serious and life endangering. Its damned shameful and no better than those who defend neo nazi groups — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.56.14 (talk) 20:19, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Engaging in ad hominem attacks and bad faith editing (see: WP:GF) is not a good way to build a case for your preferred version of the article, and ridiculous comparisons to neo-Nazis probably won't help, either.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 20:46, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


Nah you are absolutely wrong. ALF is fully justified in all its actions RJS001 (talk) 14:32, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Voice of ALF

ALF is a leaderless group with no membership or staff roster, and "ALF" has traditionally been used as a "banner" or "tag" for labelling an action as being "part of ALF" or "for ALF". As such, "it" (meaning ALF) doesn't have a voice, an opinion, or a viewpoint. Only people do. I reverted several edits which had been made that changed the ALF "voice" in the article. This is incorrect. ALF doesn't promote anything; only individuals (who might associate themselves with ALF) can promote, act, speak or have an opinion. Normal Op (talk) 22:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

If you really want to be technical, no organization has a voice, only the people do. People who share the same opinions just use organizations to help promote their opinion, but that would be too tedious to constantly explain. While some organizations are leaderless and decentralized, that doesn't mean they're voiceless. Is BLM voiceless? Was the Occupy Movement voiceless? Of course not. In the ALF's case, it has spokespeople. It has a code, a philosophy, and it even has press offices! That is not a voiceless organization. We probably wouldn't even have this article if it was truly voiceless. Mariolovr (talk) 23:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
I wasn't referring to voice as in voicebox on a human, but closer to Writer's voice. An organization with no people, one that is just a loose collection of ideas/ideals, has no "voice". The actors associated with the organization can speak in a voice. The Misplaced Pages article needs to be written to keep that clear. I presume that's why ALF and similar organizations created a "press office" so they could actually "speak" in the voice of the organization. But that's not what's happening here in those edits you had changed. Those ideas/utterances were not from a "press office". Normal Op (talk) 05:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

ARM content

I removed some content about the actions on the ARM since it wasn't about the ALF, but this was reverted because discussion was wanted due to the size of the content removed. So, any reason why this content should be on this article instead of the ARM article? Mariolovr (talk) 03:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

It looks like a section explaining the interrelationship between ALF, ARM and JD. There is this document that might explain further why the MARS poisoning event is in the ALF article. Normal Op (talk) 04:42, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
I understand that, but I'm talking about the paragraph of other events that happened later and were attributed to the ARM. Mariolovr (talk) 04:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
I do not know what you're referring to. I only looked at the edit history, saw what you had deleted (and another editor reverted). It's the paragraph starting "From 1983 onwards". Normal Op (talk) 05:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Ugh! I hate these ALF articles. I see I got the wrong paragraph. It's all gibberish to me. These organizations "claim" this and that, and these are all history, so ignore my MARS explanation. I don't have enough brain cells left today to devote to this. Normal Op (talk) 05:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
It's all good. This article needs some work. So do you think the actual paragraph belongs in the ARM article instead?
There's no reason a paragraph couldn't be in more than one article. I'm not inclined to read all that history just to answer whether it's ARM or ALF. It might well be both since these orgs often had a lot of crossover/overlap. Normal Op (talk) 00:29, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Should a paragraph on apples be used in an article about oranges? Also, if you're going to edit an article's content, you have a responsibility to at least read it. Mariolovr (talk) 01:52, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. Normal Op (talk) 02:14, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
That has to do with taking breaks. It is not justification to not understand what you're editing. Mariolovr (talk) 02:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

FBI source

File:Domestic Terrorism Symbols Guide Part 01.pdf is not a useful addition to the article, especially as it was included in this edit. We could reasonably summarize the content it has on ALF and include it as a reference, but we would need to be careful about using straightforward statements that hew to the primary source.

As it is, the image displayed is entirely unhelpful, and it's not accurate to say (as the caption currently does), that the FBI "associates the ALF with domestic terrorism", as the document itself is heavily hedged and never makes so broad a claim. Pinging Tryptofish, who recently reverted my removal. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:00, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Not a big deal to me, so I self-reverted. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't we mention that at least one of these firebombings was actually an undercover cop

Seems relevant. 2604:3D09:D78:1000:7CB2:BC52:EF01:E8DD (talk) 03:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

We would need a source (reference). --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
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