| Revision as of 08:03, 11 January 2008 editRothchild (talk | contribs)48 edits →Seeking other opinions: Links to conspiracy theorists← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 11:24, 12 July 2024 edit undo60.241.34.251 (talk) →"Anti-Faraday Cage" effect: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic | ||
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| |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001399_pf.html}} | |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001399_pf.html}} | ||
| == Style variations == | |||
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| # ]: Nov 2002 - Aug 2005 | |||
| # ]: Sep 2005 - Oct 2006 | |||
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| == 9/11 Truth == | |||
| Why is this relevant at all? -] (]) 03:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :the answer to your question lies <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 06:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| == Man, this is a fun read == | |||
| I don't have anything really helpful to add here (except that the current state of the page is probably "vandalized"), but man, this talk page is the most amusing thing I've read today. You couldn't set out to create a funnier assortment of comments from realists, crackpots, and people trying to be nice to the crackpots. Congratulations! ] 20:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
| : why do people insist on vandalisnig the pages?!? ] 19:29, 17 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == EMR == | |||
| From the article: "At this time, no link has been verifiably proven between EMR exposure and subsequent ill health (other than simple ]), however EMR exposure has many alleged effects." | |||
| This presumably means exposure to EMR commonplace in our society, and seems to me to be what the citation is implying. It is ''certainly'' the case that exposure to EMR not commonplace in our society can cause significant ill health. Too much X-ray radiation can easily kill a person, for example. As such, I believe this statement in the article is misleading but for the life of me, I can't figure out a better wording. Could someone else change it for me? --] 03:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Scientific research link seems a joke == | |||
| The third link: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/ seems like a joke to me. Their conclusions is just two lines long, without any paper with results to support it. | |||
| I think this is a good link for the article, but please don't quote it as if it is scientific research. | |||
| Of course, it could be the case that this quote is also meant as a joke, but wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a joke site. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) {{{Time|00:47, 23 March 2007}}}</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> | |||
| : It is a joke, but it's a joke presented in a formal style, and the findings are accurate. This mirrors the article itself, which takes a very silly idea and presents it in a serious manner. Nobody said Misplaced Pages couldn't be subtly humourous in this way. ] 11:19, 5 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :: I came to the Talk page to make the same point re Misplaced Pages being an encyclopaedia rather than a spoof site. I don't personally object to mild humour but it often doesn't translate well on the Internet. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people who don't think critically or have a basic understanding of science think it's genuine because it's a formally written by academic researchers and it's linked to from Misplaced Pages (some readers consider this to be authoritative in itself). One daily newspaper (one of the free-sheets in Dublin) printed an article based on the this research paper. The tone of the article suggested that they thought it was genuine. (Sorry, I can't provide a reference). ] 12:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Serious cleanup needed == | |||
| Masses of OR in here, along with some supreme silliness (fashion statement indeed). ] 13:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| : Done quite a bit of this now. Heh, silly articles are always the most productive to improve. ] 11:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Needed? == | |||
| Come on, is an article about "tin foil hats" really needed? This is absolutely ludicrous. Reccomended for deletion <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:41, 19 April 2007</small><!-- Template:Unsigned2 --> | |||
| ៛== I think it'd work anyway == | |||
| <blockquote>The effectiveness of the tin-foil hat as electromagnetic shielding for stopping radio waves is greatly reduced by the fact that it is not a complete enclosure. Placing an AM radio under a metal bucket without a conductive layer underneath demonstrates the relative ineffectiveness of such a setup. Indeed, because the effect of an ungrounded Faraday cage is to partially reflect the incident radiation, a radio wave that is incident on the inner surface of the hat (i.e., coming from underneath the hat-wearer) would be reflected and partially 'focused' towards the user's brain.</blockquote> | |||
| Isn't the idea that the mind control waves would be coming from satellites or alien spaceships? Hence, a hat would do the job, as there wouldn't be waves coming from below you. Unless you stood on something metal, reflecting them off the ground into the hat... ] 06:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| : Radiation is reflected off of any surface, not just metal. ] 09:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :: EM radiation is only reflected by electric conductors, so in practice that means metal. Then again, for extra paranoia, consider that the everyday EM radiation doesn't do much to the brain (except visible light via the eyes), you'd think the alien overlords would use some other kind of radiation that might also pass through metals ;) ] 20:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::: ''Huh''? Visible light is, as you pointed out, also "EM radiation". Radio waves don't continue moving in a straight line permanently until they hit a metal surface... ] 11:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :: Everything is a little conductive. | |||
| == Avoiding ] == | |||
| In order to avoid Violating rules about Original research, what constitutes an "authority" on TFHs? ] 14:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Stop Abduction link == | |||
| This is a humour site which, although related to the subject matter, isn't particularly appropriate as an encyclopedia link. I'm removing this again. Misplaced Pages is not a Google substitute. ] 16:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :It's not a humor site, unless my satire detection is faulty - this guy really believes that these hats will foil alien abductions. I was attempting to preserve the page against assault by a ] - he and associated IPs have a small history of disruption and ] here and on the ] page. If an established editor thinks the link should go, then I concur with its removal, but not on the grounds of it being a humor site. It probably fails ] anyway. Cheers, ] 16:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've restored it, as I don't believe it's humour and it's an interesting variant. By the by, I happen to think tin foil hats are ]. —] 08:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Avoiding ] == | |||
| I think that this is an impotnat comment and we should really try to fidn authoritiy sources for the article? ] 02:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| : Absolutely. I've tried to avoid OR statements as much as possible when cleaning this up. ] 09:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :: that's good. very god. ] 00:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == What is the sociological origin of the 'tin-foil hat' / mind-control rays complex? == | |||
| This is the question I'm interested in. I know 'tin-foil hat' has become a standing joke over the last, what, 30-odd years? But when and how did the first reported cases appear of people associating schizophrenia-type symptoms of inner voices/compulsions with technological, EMF-mediated harassment and making/publicising these claims? There must have been a 'patient zero' for this particular complex of delusions, right? It's a pretty darn specific thing to be worried about - in earlier years people would have talked about 'God' or 'the devil' or 'ghosts' or 'angels' talking to them. So what's the sociology/history of the meme? Which decade did it originate in? 1980s? 1970s? 1950s? Any reported cases pre WW2? Is it associated particularly with Vietnam veterans? Military or civilians? People with better than average or lower than average education? People with a physics background or people with a religious background? Is it US-specific or were there cases in Europe? Were there elements of copycat fear/behaviour or has it always been a small hard core of psych patients who claim just this and only this delusion? Have the claimed symptoms changed over time? How did the idea first make its way into the public consciousness? From homeless street persons, samizdat zines, or popular science/medical reporting of psych/therapy cases? There must be some publication somewhere with some non-wink-wink-say-no-more sense of history about this, surely? | |||
| It always worries me when a phrase becomes a joke without any sense of wider context. | |||
| ] 02:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| PS. It also seems surprising to me that Snopes.com doesn't seem to have any reference to this, which must be the mother of all urban legends. Still searching though. | |||
| ] 02:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| In particular, I am interested to know if there were any instances of psych patients making this claim *before* publication of the ] of ]. Is it even remotely conceivable that any the original 'tin-foil hat' cases might have been people who had direct exposure to, or cause to know of, US military/scientific Frey Effect and similar communications testing from the late 1950s / early 1960s era? How widely were experiments such as Frey's popularised in the media of the day? | |||
| ] 04:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Citation #4 == | |||
| It seems to me that citation #4 is completely unreliable. It's just trying to sell a load of garbage to paranoids. Thus the paragraph that cites #4 in this article ought to be deleted; on top of theat, it doesn't make any sense irrespective of is factual validity. ] 21:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| : It is NOT wikpedias job to decide for the readers what they can or cannot sell. our job isto write a factual article and not decide for readers what they should be allouded to rea.d or buy or sell. citation 4 should be left alone in the fearness of fair expression and legal rights. ] 23:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::Actually, as far as wikipedia goes, it is an encyclopedia, not a commercial site. It is here to educate people, yes, but according to the guidelines on ] commercial links should not be included. So, according to this, Chris is right, and citation #4 should probably be deleteted.... I'll look at the whole paragraph now. ] 08:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :finebut it hinkt hat wikipedia should not be involved in censorship of ideas ] 00:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Smith Jones do you edit Misplaced Pages drunk? | |||
| ::HEY PUNK IF YOURE GOING TO BE A JERK TO STRANGER SONT HE INTERNET AT LEAST HAVE THE BALLS TO USE YOUR REAL NAME AN ] 03:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==Pulsed Microwave/Pulsed Infrared== | |||
| Tin foil hat works as a faraday cage against EM radiation, but the pulsed signals create ultrasound that passes through. Private security firms are using this technology which is paid by federal government funds of FSSA. The purpose is not just field testing weapons, nor is it for just furthering the marketing interests of the mental health industry, but it is to be able to apply mental health laws to anyone deemed necessary. This is how western governments operate in the context of multibillion dollar corporations. It is bibilical level sorcery, and the Lake of Fire that burns forever is God's answer to it. | |||
| Look up what universities are doing pulsed microwave laser research, that is the lead. | |||
| The latest edits reminded me of (I couldn't resist).<abbr title="Smiling face" style="border-bottom: none;">]</abbr> —]] – 03:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ] <small>—Preceding ] comment was added at 03:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| == New possible origin of 'Tin foil hat/helmet' found == | |||
| ==Socialogical Origin== | |||
| This was discussed in a 1974 Psychology class at college, so if you want to research its roots, look at previous editions of the Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy, to see when it first pops up. | |||
| ] <small>—Preceding ] comment was added at 03:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| Hello, I believe I may have found a new, older use of the concept of tin foil hats dating back to 1863, just under half a century older than the oldest reference currently in this article. It is in the book , p.334. The book doesn't discusses tin foil hats in reference to the common stereotypes associated with them today but rather "Building a ferocious monarch". I don't know if this is actually related or just tin foil hats being used in some unrelated way but though it could be useful to mention. Feel free to check out the source and determine whether it should be added to the article or just ignored.] (]) 07:28, 18 October 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Another early reference to the shielding aspect... == | ||
| Specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/Slave_Ship_(Pohl_novel) where toward the end of the novel, telepaths (including the protagonist) must use close-fitting tin-foil hats (not the "dunce cone" type shown in this article, but an all-over wrap) to protect themselves from the invading extraterrestrials. What I don't know is whether this is an inspiration for or inspired by the anti-government thing. (Or, indeed, if they are both derived from something earlier.) ] (]) 18:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| I know the Illuminatus! Trilogy pretty well, and have searched right through it (PDF) for any reference to tinfoil hats. Without success. '''In what way did it popularize them?''' I haven't thoroughly checked the Principia, but again, I have no recall of any reference. If the very loose link between RAW and crazy, paranoid thoughts seems sufficient, then let it stand, by all means. It can only really prove of interest (as a connection) to people who haven't read the book (and don't intend to) but who think they already know 'what it's about'. As the satirical core of the book arises from the authors assuming 'all conspiracies have a basis in fact' I suppose 'true believers' could even quote the imaginary connection as ''proof'' that Robert Anton Wilson 'believed' in their efficacy, or assume that the reference got cut out with the 5-600 missing pages that got slashed from the original in order to get published at all, as 'scientific knowledge that got suppressed'. --] 02:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Uncited opinion == | |||
| == Seeking other opinions: Links to conspiracy theorists == | |||
| There's an addition at the end of the end of the first paragraph that is an united opinion: "as well as a popular derogative to shame out holders of dissident views, similar to former days' disciplinary use of a dunce cap." There is also an almost identical addition at the end of the first paragraph in the second section. ] (]) 19:49, 12 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
| This article is about ]s. Although it does mention that this can be a slang term of derision for ], it seems off topic and NPOV to include links to ] and ]. We certainly aren't going to link to all the conspiracy theorists out there, are we? I know Rothchild disagrees, I'm looking for other opinions, or for Rothchild to explain his reasoning. --] (]) 22:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| : Fixed. ] (]) 19:57, 12 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Just the more notable conspiracy theorists. Those two are the more relevant (if you can call them that) in the media during our current time. I was about to add the Ron Paul campaign but I keep KISS in mind.--] (]) 22:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == "Anti-Faraday Cage" effect == | |||
| ** Alex Jones and 9/11 Truthers aren't actually related to a tin foil hat article. That's not just a matter of my opinion either. ] (]) 21:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :They clearly demonstrate the fear and paranoia that would fit the description of someone that would wear a tin foil hat. If someone were doing a research paper on tin foil hats and they needed additional research then Alex Jones about would be a good example.--] (]) | |||
| 22:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::*People may disagree whether or not a person or group is part of the "tinfoil hat crowd," but I'm certain that almost all Wikipedians would agree that including these links is just blatant POV pushing. I think Alex Jones is loony too, but Misplaced Pages articles are no place for my opinion. In fact, this whole "See also" section is irrelevant and unnecessary, so I'm deleting it. Even including a paragraph in the article like, "Groups which have been said to be part of the tinfoil hat crowd include..." would open the article to a POV pushing war, with any and every group fair game. It has no place in Misplaced Pages.--] (]) 05:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Just because Alex Jones seems to be your hero does not mean you have to keep reverting my edits.--] (]) 06:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Check this out, this should be the newest addition to ]: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Edit_war_between_several_users_and_Rothchild | |||
| --] (]) 08:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| Can't find it now, but there was an item on line from about 2009 allegedly where some people from MIT had done some personal experiments for the heck of it with decent instrumentation that showed that because the cap was not a fully contiguous spheroid, it did not exhibit Faraday Cage shielding effect, but actually amplified the signal inside it. It was also mentioned in some newspaper articles. If someone has more time and interest it is worth considering including it in the article, at my age, I have other interests. ] (]) 11:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ==Need help to defend related page, ]== | |||
| A related page on Lyle Zapato, author of a is targeted for deletion. Please come to its defense at] and let your opinions be known.] (]) 07:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
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Style variations
The latest edits reminded me of these other styles (I couldn't resist).
—PaleoNeonate – 03:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
New possible origin of 'Tin foil hat/helmet' found
Hello, I believe I may have found a new, older use of the concept of tin foil hats dating back to 1863, just under half a century older than the oldest reference currently in this article. It is in the book "Hedderwick's Miscellany of Instructive and Entertaining Literature", p.334. The book doesn't discusses tin foil hats in reference to the common stereotypes associated with them today but rather "Building a ferocious monarch". I don't know if this is actually related or just tin foil hats being used in some unrelated way but though it could be useful to mention. Feel free to check out the source and determine whether it should be added to the article or just ignored.Resolving (talk) 07:28, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
Another early reference to the shielding aspect...
Specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/Slave_Ship_(Pohl_novel) where toward the end of the novel, telepaths (including the protagonist) must use close-fitting tin-foil hats (not the "dunce cone" type shown in this article, but an all-over wrap) to protect themselves from the invading extraterrestrials. What I don't know is whether this is an inspiration for or inspired by the anti-government thing. (Or, indeed, if they are both derived from something earlier.) Steveread999 (talk) 18:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Uncited opinion
There's an addition at the end of the end of the first paragraph that is an united opinion: "as well as a popular derogative to shame out holders of dissident views, similar to former days' disciplinary use of a dunce cap." There is also an almost identical addition at the end of the first paragraph in the second section. Toadrain (talk) 19:49, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
"Anti-Faraday Cage" effect
Can't find it now, but there was an item on line from about 2009 allegedly where some people from MIT had done some personal experiments for the heck of it with decent instrumentation that showed that because the cap was not a fully contiguous spheroid, it did not exhibit Faraday Cage shielding effect, but actually amplified the signal inside it. It was also mentioned in some newspaper articles. If someone has more time and interest it is worth considering including it in the article, at my age, I have other interests. 60.241.34.251 (talk) 11:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
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