Talk:Rudolf Vrba: Difference between revisions

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	== Featured article ==
			{{Notable Citation\|Paul Lungen in ''The Canadian Jewish News'', April 12, 2006 }}

	Has anyone considered nominating this article for featured article status? Looking it over, I think it would almost definitely pass inspection. ] <sup>] \| ] ]</sup> 19:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

	:And so it is! Congrats to the editors involved.--] 17:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

	::Oh, thank you! I only noticed when I saw this post, so you were the one to pass on the good news, Mantan. ;-D ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 21:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

	== Vandalism of this page - should we do something about it? ==

	I recently noticed that someone with IP 137.158.128.105 modified Vrba's page, inserting the following:

	"Vrba escaped by flying away in the time machine that he made from the human soap and ashes that he found in the gas chambers, which explains the remains of any human remains actually being found atAuschwitz after the war. He also wrote "Sergeant Pepper" in 1943 whilst at Auschwitz, which was later passed on to John Lennon, who basically copied it note-for-note in the 1960s. He never received due credit for having basically invented the psychedelic music genre, and his heirs should be backpaid for "Pepper"'s royalties from the 60's! Accusations that Vrba was schizophrenic and suffered from hallucinations and delusions are just anti-semitic lies made by Neo-Nazis and terrorists."

	Thankfully, Kingboyk noticed this vandalism and reverted to the previous version within less than 2 hours (thanks Kingboyk!). I looked at the list of edits that came from IP 137.158.128.105 and it seems that this guy has edited several Holocaust related entries and inserted this sort of vandalism in those entries as well. I'm new to Misplaced Pages but since we're fortunate here to have some very experienced users editing this page, allow me to ask: should we report this? to whom? how? Guidance from experienced Misplaced Pages users would be appreciated.

	] 11:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	:All you can do is grit your teeth and revert. I'm surprised there isn't more vandalism, given the nature of the subject matter.--] 17:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

	What's going on with the first sentence of this article? I am very new to editing Misplaced Pages, but I can't seen to remove it when I go to edit. Help!--] 22:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	:Nevermind, someone got it. Thanks!--] 22:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	== Book title ==
	I just stumbled upon this excellent article, and I had a question. Vrba's memoir, which I read years ago and still have somewhere, was entitled "I Cannot Forgive" when it was published years ago and still has that title in US editions. It stuck out in my mind not just because the book was so memorable but because it was not a very good title. I see here that it is listed in the footnotes with a different title, "I escaped from Auschwitz." Shouldn't it be referred to by its original title? Note the listing on Amazon.. Someone points out in a "product Wiki" at the bottom of the Amazon page, correctly, that the book was originally entitled "I cannot forgive." I think use of the newer title is a bit confusing.--] 16:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

	:It has been republished, along with some very useful appendices (e.g. the full ]), so the new edition is the one we're using as a reference. However, we should make a note in the References section that it was originally called ''I cannot forgive''. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 16:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

	:I just checked, and we do. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 16:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

	::OK, thanks for clarifying. I think the "I cannot forgive" part may have come first in the original title, but I'd have to haul out the book and it is buried somewhere.--] 16:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

	==Good article==

	It is really a good article. But should not we restrict size to the recommended level! FAs going well beyond the size recommended does not look nice, though I am not sure of the same. --] 16:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

	:Thank you, Bhadani. I don't think there is a recommended level. I saw a discussion about length recently on the FA page, and people were saying articles should be as long as they need to be (with the stress on need, of course). ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 17:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
	::Thanks SV. Now, a doubt has been cleared. The page is really nice and I learnt a lot - though I had heard the name before. --] 17:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
	:::Oh, I am growing older. I forgotr to congratulate your and Jayjg, and all others on the nice work. Congrats. --] 17:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
	::::We the bankers say this as ]. --] 17:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

	:::::Thank you for the congrats, which are much appreciated. :-) ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 17:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

	== Only five escaped? ==

	I think something needs to be reworded, because I don't fully understand.

	The article states he was one of 5 who escaped ] but the article states that nearly 300 escaped.

	I don't think I understand, maybe someone could word the article more accurately.

	But otherwise, it is a very good job. Congrats. ] 00:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	:Similarly I was confused by this. I think the opening para is unclear in that either they were the 1st two of 5 who escaped ''and'' gave credible reports or simply 2 of 5 who escaped and that they also gave credible reports. And, experimenting, does the tag {{ambiguous}} work? ] 07:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	::The second footnote explains it. Overall, 667 prisoners are known to have tried to escape, 270 of whom were caught and killed; the fate of the others is unknown. Of the 667, 76 Jews succeeded, five of whom managed to pass information about the camp to the Allies. Vrba and Wetzler were the second and third of those five. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 10:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	:::Yes, I know. But the point is simply this: The sentence is ambiguous. It is always better that this is not the case. And if there isn't an {{ambiguous}} tag there could usefully be one. ] 11:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	::::It's best not to put tags on featured articles. I don't find the sentence ambiguous myself, but perhaps you could suggest a way to make it less so, but retain its accuracy. Here it is:

	:::::"In April 1944, Vrba and Alfréd Wetzler became the second and third of only five Jews to escape successfully from the German death camp at Auschwitz and pass information to the Allies about the mass murder that was taking place there."

	::::I read it to mean that they were the second and third Jews to escape and pass details to the Allies i.e. there was one Jew before them who managed to escape and pass details, and two after them. (The reason Vrba's information is regarded as important is that it was the first to be taken seriously, not the first overall, as the article and footnotes say.) ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 11:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


	When the Nazis abandoned Auschiwitz I thought that several/many thousands of prisoners voluntarily retreated westward with the SS troops. The numbers mentioned above included only those who stayed behind waiting for the Russian troops - those too sick, etc to travel. I am sure the SS didn't just take 5 or 6 or 300 prisoners with them.


	Only 5 of 76 gave daming info to the Allies - how about after the war? This seems strange. Any info on the names of the other 71+, not counting the voluntary evacuees. {{unsigned\|159.105.80.219}}

	Most of the 76 were recaptured (so "escaped" includes "escaped temporarily" - this could be clarified in the article). The following from Erich Kulka, "Attempts by Jewish Escapees to Stop Mass Extermination", Jewish Social Studies 47:3/4 (1985:Summer/Fall) 295-306 may help:
	::"A total of seventy-six Jewish prisoners fled from Auschwitz-Birkenau, but for lack of assistance from the Polish resistance movement and lack of connections in the world outside the barbed wire, most were recaptured. Barely a dozen successful Jewish escapees were traced after the war."
	Kulka cites Tadeusz Iwaszko, "Haftlingsfluchten aus dem Konzentrationslager Auschwitz," Hefte von Auschwitz, 7 (1964), 49ff. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

	Another source of confusion here is that some of the figures are for escapes from the main camp, and others are for the Auschwitz complex (main camp and many sub-camps). Kulka is clear that the 667 figure was for the whole complex and includes those recaptured. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

	==A milstone==

	A milestone! Really a great job. --] 02:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	==Redundant article The Vrba-Wetzler report==

	The article The ] appears to be redundant. Can certain portions be merged?

	:"Redundant" in what sense of the word? ] 07:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	It voluminously repeates the exact same thing.

	== First two sentences ==

	Should the second sentence be the first? Per inverted pyramid, its more important that he escaped from Auschwitz and passed info to the allies than that he was a professor of pharmacology. ] 08:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	:Hi Marskell, my reasoning was to first of all say who he was i.e. when he died, what his position in life was. And then to say what he was known for. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 09:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	::Perhaps: "Walter Rosenberg (September 11, 1924 – March 27, 2006), was an escapee of the German death camp at Auschwitz, Holocaust documentarian, and later Professor Emeritus in the Department of Pharmacology and Therapeutics at the University of British Columbia in Canada." Nothing else would need to change, except there'd be no need to repeat "German death camp" in the next sentence.
	:::done.] 14:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
	::Great article BTW. ] 13:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
	:::Thanks. :-) ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 18:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			{{User:MiszaBot/config\|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}}
	Marskell, I'm really not keen on the first sentence saying he was an escapee, and particularly not a "Holocaust documentarian." He was a professor of pharmacology. Escaping Auschwitz was something he did, not something he was. And others documented it; he just told them what had happened. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 20:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
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			{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article tools\|1=Rudolf Vrba}}
	:I don't understand at all. He is notable because of his escape. The article details his documentarian work. He ''was'' an important Auschwitz escapee. That's broadly why this article exists. Per any existing stylistic standard you want, the lead sentence should note this. I have absolutely no desire to revert something you've worked on so greatly (and particularly with Jayjg editing) but...I don't understand at all. ] 20:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			== New book coming out later this year ==
	::Marskell, I'm not sure I can explain it clearly. It's that escaping from Auschwitz isn't something he ''was'', but something he ''did''. He became known because he did X, not because he was an X-er. So you're right: that has to be very near the top. But first you want to answer the question: Who is this person? The answer is: Name, a professor of pharmacology. And the reason we're telling you his story is? He escaped from Auschwitz.

			''The Escape Artist: The Man Who Broke Out of Auschwitz to Warn the World'' by Jonathan Freedland should be released on Oct. 18, 2022. -- ] (]) 04:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
	::That intuitively feels like the best flow to me. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 20:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
			:{{re\|Beland}} Yes I have that book and have read it. There's quite a bit of pertinent information that should be in the article, and I hope to integrate it. Reading through this article, by the way, I'm struck by the lack of information on his character and personal life. I trust that is due to lack of sourcing, and the Freedland book can fill in that gap.Given the length of this article and the importance of the subject, I think that is worth exploring in a section. ] (]) 19:13, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

			== ] and FA concerns ==
	:::On a kind of ontological level, I do understand your second sentence...but then I'd quibble (of course I would :). That profession is "is-ness" is debatable, personally and in terms of writing a Wiki page. He was man. He was a husband. He was a Jew. He was (maybe) an optimist or a pessimist, a Cancer or a Virgo. If you could ask him, I'm sure some of those would occur before "Holocaust escapee". But the primary question ''here'' is: why are you reading this? Answer: because he escaped Auschwitz and passed info to the allies. This shouldn't be near the top, it should be ''at'' the top. And, presentation-wise, order of primacy in the lead should reflect order of primacy in the body. We have "50 papers" in the first sentence now, but this doesn't occur in the body until after half the article is done. One or the other should be changed.

			I was going to nominate this article for ] for Vrba's 100th birthday, but I am concerned that the article does not meet the ] anymore. After skimming through the article, most of the text seems to be about the ]. While this is an important part of Vrba's biography that needs to be mentioned at length, much of the information talks about the imapct of the report, which would be better in the report's article. The lede is also missing information about other aspects of Vrba's biography including his testimony at trials, activities after WWII and death. Is anyone interested in fixing up this article? Pinging original nominator {{u\|Jayjg}}. ] (]) 17:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::Now then! I've had one article on the main page and it's a very stressful day. I don't want to be too pedantic, picking apart 0.25k when you've done up the other 84.75 so well. The first sentence does matter, and I don't agree with it as it stands, but perhaps tomorrow will provide a compromise. Cheers, ] 21:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			== Vrba and Zionism ==
	::::Thank you for understanding about today! Tomorrow would be great. ;-D ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 21:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			The article says "Kulka also disagreed with Vrba regarding his criticism of Zionists" - but nowhere in the article is there any discussion of what these criticisms were.
	== Circumstances of death ==
	Usually in a biographical article where the subject is deceased, the circumstances of the death are given. ] 13:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			Here is what Vrba said in an interview for the Thames Television series '']'':
	:Thanks for pointing that out. It was in an earlier version then was moved during a series of edits, and not put back. It's there now. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 13:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			:“The Zionist movement of Europe played a very important role in the mass extermination of Jews. Indeed, I believe that without the :cooperation of Zionists it would have been a much more difficult task….
	== Can someone fix ... ===
	... the tortuous second paragraph of "Vrba's accusations". There's a long, meaningless sentence in there that smacks of "too many cooks". I don't know the story well enough to do it. ] 14:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			: said that we are not Czechoslovaks or we are not Germans, we are not French, we are Jews and we must, as Jews, go back to our :country, to Israel or to Palestine and found our state …
	:Which is the sentence you don't like? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 18:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			:Then came the Nuremberg Law, which was a law, issued by a nominally civilized state , which said that Jews do not belong to :Europe, but to Palestine. …
	== Possible vandal? ==

			:So, on one platform, Nazism and Zionism had something in common: they both preached that Jews don’t belong to Europe but to Palestine. …
	The mention of sexual orientation in this sentence doesn't look quite kosher, but I don't know enough about the subject to rip it out myself: "He decided to return to Slovakia, but was caught by homosexual Hungarian border guards while crossing back over the Hungary-Slovakia border." --] 17:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			:And naturally, the Germans said: ‘You see the Jews may not trust us but they will trust you’, to the Zionists, ‘because they have seen that :they have always told them actually the truth: that you belong to Palestine, that you are a foreign element here.’ …
	:Thanks, Robert. Not quite kosher is right. :-D ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 18:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			:And so the Jewish councils were preferably selected from well-known Zionists. And, because the well-known Zionists became respectable, many :Jews who were respectable anyway became Zionists. So they formed Jewish councils from a Zionist core, fortified by respectable members of :society: top lawyers, top business people, top economists and that was the Jewish councils. …
	At the bottom of the page, after Further Reading, this appears.
	[[he:רודולף ורבה nigger fuck shit
	]]
	I don't know what the Hebrew says, but I'm positive that the English is offensive. ] 18:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			:They were promised by the Germans or by the local fascist government to be protected from any discrimination because they are needed for :administering of the Jewish affairs. …
	:Thanks Bob. The Hebrew is just his name; the other stuff has gone, I think — at least for now. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 18:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			:So you had here already a Zionist clique enforced by money of big Jewish businessmen who would be prepared to go along with the :discrimination against the masses of the Jewish population which were neither rich nor Zionist, and in other words did not belong to the :clique. …
	==Improved source needed for sentence==
	Hi, This note is regarding the sentence that reads: "It is regarded as one of the most important documents of the 20th century because it was the first detailed information about the camp to reach the Allies that they accepted as credible."
	*The sentence uses a "weasel word" formulation "it is regarded" ("''Here are some weasel words that are often found in Misplaced Pages articles:"...is widely regarded as..."...''From Weasel words wiki-page). The wiki-page on "weasel words" goes on to say "It is better to put a name and a face on an opinion than to assign an opinion to an anonymous source." An editor has pointed out that this sentence is footnoted. However, the footnoted sources (BC bookworld author bank, from abcbookword.com, and Jewish News Weekly of Northern California) are not sources that would normally be used in an academic context. Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy states that ''Information on Misplaced Pages must be reliable and verifiable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources.'' As such, it would help if we could find a more scholarly source (e.g., a journal article, encyclopedia article, etc).] 02:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

			:So I didn’t trust them in spite of the fact that the Nazis gave them the right after the Nuremberg Laws. I considered them plain fascists :and I considered them from the very start as despicable creatures who deal with the fascists and take profit out of it in order to be :exempted from discrimination conducted against the others. …

			:So I didn’t trust the Nazis any more or any less than the Jewish Zionist councils. Indeed, I realised that the Zionists and the Nazis are :approximately identical enemies of mine who have got both one thing in common, to get me out from home with 25 kilos to an unknown place and :to leave my mother completely defenceless at home. …

			:The young people, the core of resistance, is always 16 to 30. Every soldier knows that they are the best material for fighting. … I was :flabbergasted by the fact that the Zionists who pretended to be the protectors of the Jews, the first thing which they agreed to was to let :go away a potential core of resistance who could in the last resort protect the families with force if necessary. :…”
	Pressac was mentioned in the lead article - is there any truth to the story that he concealed a memo that implies that the gas chambers were actually gas shelters? He supposedly had the memo in his possession for a few years before his death and it remained hidden until recently. Link to this info? The existence of this memo would tend to further ruin his story - I notice in the article that several of the good guys "historians" already question Vbra's testimony, at least partially.
	The internet has almost nothing on Vbra - not even Zundel who he gave evidence against. Is this story a hoax? He seems to be little regarded as a reliable source of info even by his "own side".

			] (]) 15:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
	== In 1942 Karski reported to the Polish, British and U.S. governments on the situation in Poland ==

			And specifically on the Kastner case:
	In 1942 Karski reported to the Polish, British and U.S. governments on the situation in Poland, especially the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto and the Holocaust of the Jews. He met with Polish politicians in exile including the prime minister, as well as members of political parties such as the PPS, SN, SP, SL, Jewish Bund and Poalej-Syjon. He also spoke to Anthony Eden, the British foreign secretary, and included a detailed statement on what he had seen in Warsaw and Bełżec. He then traveled to the United States and reported to President Franklin D. Roosevelt. His report was a major factor in informing the West, but no action followed.

			:“I am a Jew. In spite of that – indeed because of that – I accuse certain Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war.
	In July 1943, Karski again personally reported to Roosevelt about the situation in Poland. He also met with many other government and civic leaders in the United States, including Felix Frankfurter, Cordell Hull, William Joseph Donovan, Samuel Cardinal Stritch, and Stephen Wise. Karski also presented his report to media, bishops of various denominations, members of the Hollywood film industry and artists, but without success. Many of those he spoke to did not believe him, or supposed that his testimony was much exaggerated or was propaganda from the Polish government in exile. It is possible, however, that Karski's descriptions influenced FDR to create a War Refugee Board several months later in January of 1944. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 21:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

			:This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price :of silence. Among them was Dr. Kastner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in Hungary…
	== Witold Pilecki a member of the Armia Krajowa (Home Army)informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's camp atrocities ==

			:While I was prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz – the number is still on my arm – I compiled careful statistics of the exterminations … I :took these terrible statistics with me when I escaped in 1944 and I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice that :Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers. … Kastner went to Eichmann and told him, ‘I know of your plans; spare :some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.’
	Witold Pilecki (May 13, 1901 – May 25, 1948; pronounced ; codenames Roman Jezierski, Tomasz Serafiński, Druh, Witold) was a soldier of the Second Polish Republic, the founder of the resistance movement, Secret Polish Army (Tajna Armia Polska), and a member of the Home Army (Armia Krajowa). During World War II, he became the only known person to volunteer to be imprisoned at Auschwitz Concentration Camp. While there, he organized inmate resistance, and as early as 1940, informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's camp atrocities. He escaped from Auschwitz in 1943 and took part in the Warsaw Uprising (August–October 1944). Pilecki was executed in 1948 by the communists. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 21:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

			:Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kastner up in S.S. uniform and took him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid :bargaining end there.

			:Kastner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune, Eichmann was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany :collapsed, to set himself up in the Argentine…”

			Dr. Rudolf Vrba, Daily Herald, February 1961
	Very odd article - Yehuda Bauer calls him a hero and a liar in one sentence. No mention is made of his testimony in the Zundel trial where Bauer turne out half right - he was a liar. Odd.] 15:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
			(cited in Ben Hecht, Perfidy, 1962, p. 231).

			] (]) 15:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
	==Removal of sourced material==
	Editor Slimvirgin, please stop removing sourced material. --] (]) 01:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

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New book coming out later this year

The Escape Artist: The Man Who Broke Out of Auschwitz to Warn the World by Jonathan Freedland should be released on Oct. 18, 2022. -- Beland (talk) 04:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

@Beland: Yes I have that book and have read it. There's quite a bit of pertinent information that should be in the article, and I hope to integrate it. Reading through this article, by the way, I'm struck by the lack of information on his character and personal life. I trust that is due to lack of sourcing, and the Freedland book can fill in that gap.Given the length of this article and the importance of the subject, I think that is worth exploring in a section. Coretheapple (talk) 19:13, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020 and FA concerns

I was going to nominate this article for WP:TFA for Vrba's 100th birthday, but I am concerned that the article does not meet the featured article criteria anymore. After skimming through the article, most of the text seems to be about the Vrba–Wetzler report. While this is an important part of Vrba's biography that needs to be mentioned at length, much of the information talks about the imapct of the report, which would be better in the report's article. The lede is also missing information about other aspects of Vrba's biography including his testimony at trials, activities after WWII and death. Is anyone interested in fixing up this article? Pinging original nominator Jayjg. Z1720 (talk) 17:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Vrba and Zionism

The article says "Kulka also disagreed with Vrba regarding his criticism of Zionists" - but nowhere in the article is there any discussion of what these criticisms were.

Here is what Vrba said in an interview for the Thames Television series The World at War:

“The Zionist movement of Europe played a very important role in the mass extermination of Jews. Indeed, I believe that without the :cooperation of Zionists it would have been a much more difficult task….

said that we are not Czechoslovaks or we are not Germans, we are not French, we are Jews and we must, as Jews, go back to our :country, to Israel or to Palestine and found our state …

Then came the Nuremberg Law, which was a law, issued by a nominally civilized state , which said that Jews do not belong to :Europe, but to Palestine. …

So, on one platform, Nazism and Zionism had something in common: they both preached that Jews don’t belong to Europe but to Palestine. …

And naturally, the Germans said: ‘You see the Jews may not trust us but they will trust you’, to the Zionists, ‘because they have seen that :they have always told them actually the truth: that you belong to Palestine, that you are a foreign element here.’ …

And so the Jewish councils were preferably selected from well-known Zionists. And, because the well-known Zionists became respectable, many :Jews who were respectable anyway became Zionists. So they formed Jewish councils from a Zionist core, fortified by respectable members of :society: top lawyers, top business people, top economists and that was the Jewish councils. …

They were promised by the Germans or by the local fascist government to be protected from any discrimination because they are needed for :administering of the Jewish affairs. …

So you had here already a Zionist clique enforced by money of big Jewish businessmen who would be prepared to go along with the :discrimination against the masses of the Jewish population which were neither rich nor Zionist, and in other words did not belong to the :clique. …

So I didn’t trust them in spite of the fact that the Nazis gave them the right after the Nuremberg Laws. I considered them plain fascists :and I considered them from the very start as despicable creatures who deal with the fascists and take profit out of it in order to be :exempted from discrimination conducted against the others. …

So I didn’t trust the Nazis any more or any less than the Jewish Zionist councils. Indeed, I realised that the Zionists and the Nazis are :approximately identical enemies of mine who have got both one thing in common, to get me out from home with 25 kilos to an unknown place and :to leave my mother completely defenceless at home. …

The young people, the core of resistance, is always 16 to 30. Every soldier knows that they are the best material for fighting. … I was :flabbergasted by the fact that the Zionists who pretended to be the protectors of the Jews, the first thing which they agreed to was to let :go away a potential core of resistance who could in the last resort protect the families with force if necessary. :…”

Wellington Bay (talk) 15:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

And specifically on the Kastner case:

“I am a Jew. In spite of that – indeed because of that – I accuse certain Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war.

This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price :of silence. Among them was Dr. Kastner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in Hungary…

While I was prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz – the number is still on my arm – I compiled careful statistics of the exterminations … I :took these terrible statistics with me when I escaped in 1944 and I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice that :Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers. … Kastner went to Eichmann and told him, ‘I know of your plans; spare :some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.’

Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kastner up in S.S. uniform and took him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid :bargaining end there.

Kastner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune, Eichmann was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany :collapsed, to set himself up in the Argentine…”

Dr. Rudolf Vrba, Daily Herald, February 1961 (cited in Ben Hecht, Perfidy, 1962, p. 231).

Wellington Bay (talk) 15:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

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