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Revision as of 20:24, 29 January 2008 view sourceThatcher (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users28,287 edits →Proposed Decision: reply← Previous edit Latest revision as of 12:06, 23 August 2008 view source Thatcher (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users28,287 editsm Changed protection level for "User talk:Thatcher/Alpha": possibly not needed  
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== "Pulled in front of Arbcom" == == History archive ==
This page contains the entire history of my previous talk page. As it has become a vandal target, but has over 5000 edits, making deletion a problem, I moved the history to a history-only archive, to start a fresh new talk page. For most purposes, my traditional archives will be more useful. ] 11:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

You write: ''"The best way to not be sanctioned is not to get pulled in front of Arbcom; it is too late for that, and admins reviewing these complaints will make good faith efforts, but we (or at least I) have neither the patience of Job nor the wisdom of Solomon, so we will do the best we can."''

I would like to point out that I have never "been pulled in front of ArbCom". I've made statements in arbitrations to which I added myself. Implying otherwise is a bit much. An apology would be appreciated. Thanks. --] (]) 19:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

:The comment was generally directed not only toward the 4 parties I placed on revert limitation but anyone else who was watching and might feel compelled to object. Certainly the area of dispute was brought to arbcom. ] 03:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

== Inconclusive ==

I'm sorry but can you clarify why the case is inconclusive? The case is related to ] and I believe the ip users are infinitely blocked user ] or ] because the same IP network host, writing style and behavioral patterns on the same interests.

Due to the reason, I strongly believe that Amazonfire = Amazonjoke = Kamosuke =Blue011011 =Orchis29 =Jsenkyoguid =KoreanShoriSenyou = Azukimonaka =Mfugue and other odn ip users. The evidences I provided as evidences includes the revelation of the ip user. --] (]) 03:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Some of ip address which Kamosuke used was odn.ad.jp and Azukimonaka is also using the same network host

211.3.118.170, 218.218.129.134,

211.3.112.132
219.66.45.26 <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Answered on the case page. ] 03:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

== Double check AE closure ==

Hi. Since we appear to be, pretty much, the only admins actively handling AE requests: I would like you to review my latest closure, with my permission to amend it as you see fit. The reason for this being that I have already argued elsewhere that the individual submitting the notice has claimed another arbitration-restricted user breached civility supervision but fell short of directly proving this. Thanks in advance. Regards, ] 04:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

*Given the point of view that Eupator is approaching the article from, as evidenced from his evidence subpage it might not be unreasonable to include it in AA2, and you certainly could ask him to remove references to the dispute or to depersonalize it; "here is evidence summarizing my position" is more compatible with an open editing environment than "here is why admin:Smith got it wrong." Your response was certainly within the realm of discretion. I often leave off the report archive tags for a while after commenting to see what other discussion turns up, though. (Although I haven;t kept count of how many good discussions versus pointless discussions this leads to.) ] 08:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks, relieved to hear that. I think we need to become more strict with reports and discussions, so largely, that has been the basis for my ''modus operandi'' there as of late (that includes closing reports immediately; although leaving em open to future amendment ]). ] 08:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

::Could I press on you to add your own closing assessment under my closing notes? That'd be appreciated. ] 19:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Many thanks, again! ] 20:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

== Recent ArbCom ==

In relation of the recent ArbCom issue, I bring this to your attention : -
] (]) 18:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

== KoreanShoriSenyou case ==

Are you closing it just like "inconclusive" without looking the evidences? The amazon fire report is a side report from KoreanShoriSenyou due to my long waiting (it's over 19 days). The amozonfire file just hold the recent activities of the suspected user after I filed the KoreanShoriSenyou case. Are you saying that KoranShoriSenyou is not the same person of Azukimonaka whom I strongly believe as a sockpuppetmaster? I feel aghast at the result because I've been patiently waiting by this time. --] (]) 19:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:Answered on the case page. ] 03:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


You're active now, so could you take a look at a possible 3RR violation with sock ip which occured today? Or do I need to file another report at RFCU or add this to my completed previous report? You didn't tell me Amazonfire is unrelated to anybody, and the user is active now. And one more question. In ], I made a lot of differs on their possible 3RR (violations, Amazonfire, Jusenkoguide, Kusunose, and Blue011011, and ips) But you didn't say whether they're related to each other. The 3rr reports were all in the very short period of time. But was it also not helpful for you to confirm their possible sockpuppetry? --] (]) 16:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

{| class="navbox collapsible collapsed" style="text-align:left; font-size:1em; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;"
|-
! style="background-color: #ede; font-weight:normal; font-size=120%;" |'''Supporting evidence'''
|-
|This ip addresses are only shown at this two articles.

*{{checkuser|Amazonfire}}
*{{checkuser|Azukimonaka}}
*{{checkip|61.209.160.250}}
*{{checkip|124.87.134.96}}
*{{checkip|219.66.47.57}}
*{{checkip|211.3.116.49}}
*{{checkip|211.3.120.28}}
*{{checkip|61.209.165.189}}

*{{la|Imperial House of Japan}}
Possible 3RR violation with ip
*1st revert by ]
*2nd revert by ]
*3rd revet by ]
*4th revert by ]

*{{la|Timeline of Japan-South Korea relations}}

This article is created by ] at 12 October 2007
The dispute between me and Japanese users is inclusion of personal opinion (''Japan gave a relief to South Korea'') This comment is not mentioned on the citation (it is just a statics) but the Japanese users insist on putting it to the article.

It was originally added by ] at

*1st revert by ]
*2nd revert by ]
*3rd revert by ]
|}

Actually I am going out right now but will look later. Sorry. ] 16:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
:Thanks. I just wanted to know where I have to report it. --] (]) 18:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


::The IPs that were reverting you are likely Orchis29=Azukimonaka=KoreanShoriSenyou. Those IPs had similar interests on that day to Amazonfire (Manga, Imperial House, Timeline) but there is not enough technical evidence connecting Amazonfire to the others. It could be one person who just hasn't slipped up yet (Amazonfire only has 57 edits, more would help). It could be two people who work together, or just two people who have independently decided to target your edits. Have you filed a report at ]? Sockpuppets can be blocked and tagged based on behavior even without technical evidence; you need to get some uninvolved admins looking into this. You can also ask to have disputed pages semi-protected at ] which will block IP edits and force editors to log in when reverting. ] 21:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Sigh, that's it. I wish Misplaced Pages only allows user with account to access. But I thought the checkuser is the last and conclusive way to confirm sockpupptry. If once sockpupptry case are not clear, admins suggest to file a RFCU report. With this report, I think I'm being a target of the other party. --] (]) 22:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

== Hi...about recent issue you handled ==

Hello Thatcher,

I wanted to let you know that in discussion, I think you were somewhat off base when you said:

:"There have been multiple complaints filed against **USER**, ''mostly groundless'' or ''incredibly minor'', by editors ''seemingly more interested in getting rid of him'' than editing collaboratively, and **USER** has unfortunately taken the bait more than once and responded in an inappropriate manner."

I am an editor who (by choice) decides NOT to pursue or "take the bait" in instances involving disputes with other editors. I continue to try to just walk away and I'm too busy (with the time I can devote to Misplaced Pages) editing, so I stay out of the fray if I can.

I will therefore (for now) preserve the anonymity of the editor I will call **USER**.

I ''do'' devote my time to my goal of making sure controversial topics are encyclopedic in presentation, as I note that such topics on Misplaced Pages are "dominated" by the polar opposite POV's, leaving no room (IMHO) for "middle" interpretations, and (quite frankly) leaving many such articles in a state that is an embarassment to Misplaced Pages. Hence I find myself (and see myself) as advocating strongly for the "middle" viewpoint.

I would ask you to consider that for every one editor that has complained about **USER**, there are (I believe) '''many''' like me who have just walked away when faced with **USER**'s assaults. In my case, I was repeatedly and extensively attacked by **USER** via (a) deceptive, repeated and (seemingly) intentional ] mischaracterizations of my edits which were (b) created and used to "paint" me as a "POV pusher", (c) uncivil and personally directed edit summaries, and (d) insults left on my talk page, and the whole array.

All unprovoked and unjustified.

Background...in a discussion with **USER** (in which I expect you would find me to be civil to a fault) about whether or not a source cited by **USER** actually supported the pejorative and unencyclopedic claims made in **USER**'s edit, **USER** became enraged upon discovering in embarassment that the highly respected source (with which I just happened to be very familiar) (s)he cited actually made a case for the OPPOSITE POV. Next, **USER**, having painted him/herself into a corner, created a smoke screen to cover the embarassing mistake by posting a notice about me on the "fringe" noticeboard, canvassing numerous other users to the "crusade" against my "pseudoscience POV pushing", and wound up burning a stunning amount of ArbCom resources, in addition to damaging me.

I did not contribute a single word to the ArbCom discussion...by choice.

Immediately thereafter, **USER** was rebuked by ArbCom following the frivolous complaint **USER** made, and was instructed to apologise to me and remove the personal attacks from my talk page. **USER** failed to comply and instead immediately took up another related crusade for which (s)he was blocked...whereupon **USER** invoked "right to vanish" -- "retiring" from Misplaced Pages in (what I would call) a cloud of smoke, wiping out all relevant talk page entries (again, consuming administrative resources here) and then "reappeared" immediately following the block and picked up right where (s)he left off, personal attacks, incivility and disingenuous characterizations of others. **USER** continues to attack in such a way as to continue to make even the most centrist or moderate editors appear to be rabid "POV pushers" at the first moment of conflict, driving (I strongly believe) good editors away from Misplaced Pages.

I'd suggest that what you were seeing...the basis on which you made your initial (and perhaps hasty) assessment of **USER** and the complaints against him/her, is merely the tip of the iceberg, and if you choose to look below the surface (and through **USER**'s smoke screens) as part of your investigation, I strongly believe you will come to a completely different opinion on **USER**'s behavior.

In addition, **USER** has also written recently and unapologetically that (s)he has no ''"understanding" of'', nor ''any regard for'' Misplaced Pages's Pillar of Civility. **User** has outrightly expressed ''contempt'' for "civility" in general, has written extensively of this contempt for civility and does not understand or accept ''or respect'' the idea that all human progress, including science and indeed "''civil''-ization" itself is predicated on ''civil''ity in public discourse. All of this is opinion, my considered opinion, of course.

Me? I am already spending more time than I wish here and I am not inclined to invest this time ''except to the extent that you are interested in following up and looking into this''.

Please, leave a message on my talk page if you want to look into this further. Otherwise I am perfectly happy to "let it go", remain out of the fray and I will not think less of you if you choose to decline. Thanks for your attention. ] (]) 00:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

== Barnstar for Thatcher ==

{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|gray}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fdffe7}}};"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The da Vinci Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | This is for all your hard work at ], and for your recent appointment to Checkuser status! May the good work continue!! ] (]) 00:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
|}

== please stop ==

Comments like this are completely irresponsible: . THis is incredibly uncivil: "Tell you what, as soon as Piperdown agrees to stay off the topic, you can personally unblock him, as long as you are willing to be responsible for his edits. Oh wait...", your administrator status does NOT give your view any more weight than Bstone'. ]] 04:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

:OK, it was a little snarky. However, as far as I am concerned, an admin who unblocks an editor under circumstances like this is responsible for any further harassment by the editor in question, and should be prepared to reblock the editor if necessary. Bstone is doing a lot of lecturing for someone who is not in a position to be responsible for the outcome of his opinions. ] 07:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

== More evidence at ] ==

I supplied new evidence pertaining to Appletrees', showing his removal of <nowiki>{{3RR}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{sockpuppet}}</nowiki> tags from other users. Clarification of Appletrees' likeliness of sockpuppetry will be appreciated. Thank you very much.--] (]) 20:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
:Already did. Removing tags from editors whose edits you like and who were tagged by someone whose edits you don't like isn;t really evidence of anything except failure to get along with people. (And maybe that the JP/KR disputes need to go before Arbcom if things don't improve.) ] 20:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

== Please see thread at Administrators' noticeboard ==

Not sure if you are already aware of this or not, but please check out this thread/complaint about me, at ]. Several editors and Admins from both Misplaced Pages and ] have already commented on a thread here and on a thread by the same user raised at ], and I thought you should know. Thanks, ] (]) 14:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

== Can you warn or do something to this ] ip user? ==

], the ] user who presumably one of editors on my RFCU reports per the same edit summary comment is falsifying contents in incredibly uncivil manner at ]. Once another Japanese anon editor, ] vandalize the page as falsely altering referenced statics on crimes by Yakuza of Korean origin. I think the anon knows the RFCU result and tries to provoke me to be enraged. (I assume that the anon calculates that he or she can't easily be identified to any account, so try to drag me into edit warring or 3RR violation)

* ] (ocn.ne.jp)

* ] (odn.ad.jp) rv:(Korean Raicsim) Writing IP address of Japan is not prohibited.

* ] (odn.ad.jp) Vandalism by Korean. Korean people's crime should not be concealed.

If the anon is the same person of the anon ], or ] the block sanction is still valid (2 weeks duration).

I don't think I have to put up with this racial slurs and incivility. Can you watch him if you are active. Thanks.--] (]) 15:34, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

{{Likely}} this is the same person who has been reverting you as an anon and also as Orchis29=Azukimonaka=KoreanShoriSenyou. I feel somewhat constrained to act. Some people may think it is a conflict of interest for checkusers to perform investigations and then also to block, especially here where the IP evidence is only partial confirmation, and additional confirmation is needed by looking at the persons's constribution style and content. You should make a report at ] and ask to have the listed accounts blocked or banned and to have the articles involved semi-protected. Blocking the IPs will not be effective because this person has a new IP several times a day. ] 17:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:Thank you very much. I really appreciate your effort for this. I will add more evidences to prove the users' likeness. I saw several admins's doubtful comment over KoreanShoriSenyou and Azukimonaka's possible sockpuppetry with abusive ip users who are also on my report and other editors (unfortunately they're stale). If they look into the case, it will be much helpful. Thank you again.--] (]) 19:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:::{{user|Appletrees}} and {{user|Ecthelion83}} have the word "JPOV" that only they use. These two accounts participated in the edit war of ].Please confirm ] --] (]) 11:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


*Thatcher, I added some information regarding my exact time matched edits compared with the other to the RFCU file. Can you check it? Thanks --] (]) 15:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

== Johnyajohn RFCU ==

A minor point, but one of the accounts you listed is spelled "Sarazip1", not "Sarazip". At this time I feel I am under enough or I would change it myself. Thank you for your efforts. -- ] ] 19:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
:oops. ] 19:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
:: Thanks again. -- ] ] 17:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

== TOR block of 139.18.211.252 ==

Hey, I noticed that you've ], as a TOR node, which, . I was wondering, if you'd consider either allowing me to unblock it, or, unblocking it yourself please. ]] 20:11, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
:If you're sure its not a tor node any more than go ahead and unblock it. ] 20:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
::{{done}}, thanks! (It's been a year now, and I haven't seen it pop up on /drop from my lists in a while) ]] 20:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

== ] ==

This article was recently closed as "keep", and I have no problem with that. But the entire article is unsourced, and has been for years. Do you have any problem with cutting out the unsourced stuff, and making a note w/DIFF of that action on the talk page? If another editor wants to come along and put it back, they'll have the old page history, providing they can add secondary sources to back stuff up. I asked the closing admin about this, {{user|Jerry}}, who referred me to Arbcomm because the article is on probation due to ]. I thought since you are knowledgeable of that case, you could provide feedback to me, is it alright to delete unsourced violations of ] from the article, and make a note of it on the talk page? ] (]) 01:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
*Update, I also have the exact same question for you with regards to recently closed AfD on ], also an article that is purely unsourced ] violations, would it be appropriate to remove the ] violations, change the article to a stub pending secondary sources, and make a note of it on the article's talk page? ] (]) 01:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

**Article probation is not meant to stop normal editing. Disruptive editors can be banned from the article, though. In theory, there should be no problem removing unsourced information. However, in the case of these articles, do you believe they are actually inaccurate, or probably accurate but unreferenced. If you agree they are probably or mostly accurate but only unreferenced it might be better to add references where you can instead of removing stuff. ] 00:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
***But is it my ''responsibility'' to add references to all articles I come across with unsourced or ] material? (rhetorical) I'd rather remove it, and make a note of the Diff on the talk page - that way another editor can always find the removed material if they wish to add sources to it later. ] (]) 00:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

::::Just don't get into a pissing contest with another editor over it. ] 01:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::Okay. ] (]) 04:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

== 1rr ==

You recently placed several users (including ) on a 1rr per week limit. Does this apply only to Israeli-Palestinain articles? Would ] and ], related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, be included?] (]) 07:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

*As it says, "all pages related to the conflict area", conflict area being defined in the case as
{{cquote|The disputes presented in this case, while focusing specifically on issues related to Palestinian-Israeli conflict, are part of a broader set of conflicts prevalent over the entire range of articles concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict (see, in particular, the prior Arbitration cases regarding Allegations of apartheid, PalestineRemembered, Deir Yassin massacre, Israel-Lebanon, Israeli apartheid, Zeq, and Yuber). Many of these conflicts are grounded in matters external to the project; deep-seated and long-standing real world conflicts between the peoples of Palestine and Israel have been transferred to Misplaced Pages. The area of conflict in this case shall be considered to be the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted.}}
:There doesn't seem to be any way of separating those articles from the Middle East conflicts, so I would say yes, they are included. ] 23:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

== Let a Japanese editor edit a Japanese article comfortably ==

Many Japanese users cannot contribute to a Japanese article by interference of Korean user Appletree.
He often writes the erroneous information. He calls all users who corrected his mistake Socks though we correct his mistake. We will be able to participate in the article without using IP if you cooperate so that a Japanese user may contribute to the article on Japan. To our regret, all users who pointed out the mistake of Appletree are indicted as Socks. --] (]) 10:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher, I receive a threat from this anon OCN (not ] user, ].

<blockquote>
Appletree. The reason why you supported Ecthelion83 in your log is not written at all. You will be accused as a meat doll if you do not show an opinion. Please cope immediately.
</blockquote>

Ironically, the user just proves his "meatpuppetry" to support the odn user's massive blanking and adding confirmed source. Can you check the ip user with any others on my RFCU files? Thanks.--] (]) 11:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

:Thus, Appletree is a user who rejects the discussion. A lot of users will feel the unpleasantness though "You are Socks" is a convenient word for him. Do you keep supporting his attitude? --] (]) 11:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, you're the first reverter, so you have to leave your "plausible rationale" for your removing the sourced materials or adding unconfirmed JPOV. But you and your friend refused to my repeated suggestions to talk with me or others at the relevant pages. Of course, a lot of user feel unpleasant with the report, so that vandalising my page is productive way for your side? That's too bad. This is Thatcher's page, so if you have something to say, visit to my page. --] (]) 11:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

*I really don't have anything to say here. If there are editing conflicts you are expected to follow the ] process, such as filing a request for comment to get outside opinions, or mediation. Blocks and bans for edit-warring and for Checkuser findings can also be pursued at the ]. From what I have seen, if this dispute goes before Arbitration, a number of edit-warring editors are likely to be banned. Editing while logged out to avoid scrutiny is really bad behavior as well, and it may be necessary to put the affected articles on long-term semi-protection (request at ]). ] 12:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

== ] ==

I'm so sorry to drag you into this silly quarrels. But Jjok made a false link regarding ]. So I added it for him to change the comment at the RFCU page and his talk page. After Endroit's accusation on me, I thought I had to explain why I "fix" his hidden link. The chinlipa is only used for some Koreans who betray their country to aid Japanese Imperialism during Japanese occupation. But Jjok mistakes the notion with pro-Japanese side. The historical term is only exclusively used for Koreans not foreigners. --] (]) 12:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
:Use of the term to refer to ''any'' Misplaced Pages editor constitutes a personal attack and should be avoided. You can agree or disagree with a person's editing behavior or content changes without commenting on their character. ] 13:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

::No, I haven't used the term to call the party because it is only used for '''Koreans''' born before 1920s. But Jjok did call himself and his party '''chinilpa''' by his misunderstanding of the concept. That's why I tried to inform him not to use it. I don't have anything to disagree with his editing behaviors as long as he keeps sticking to reliable sources. In fact, he is a few people editing as such unlike the odn users's disruptive behaviors. But I had some suspicion ever him because whenever edit warring between Korean and Japanese users occurs over inclusion of Korean relation, he was always there. However, the editor even pointed out that he thinks I made edit warring with only '''one editor''' not with several editors. And I agree with his opinion on that.--] (]) 13:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Appletrees, Do not you apologize to Jjok? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::::The same sock ip appears again at very weird timing. Hmm.. please visit my page if you want to say to me. The admin ] once said you strikingly resemble to KoreanShoriSenyou, so blocked you for your apparent sockpuppet and disruptive edits. Of course you have grudge to me for my report on you. ]
::::Please clarify your urge for matter, why I should apologize to ]. I haven't called him as ''chinilpa'' but if you insist, I might say sorry to him for "fixing" wrong information on that. Please stop your sockpuppetry. --] (]) 15:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

==Tajik==
, ,
- same old. Do I have to file a checkuser again? Thanks. ] (]) 18:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You revert that straight back, I will not be so insulted by anyone ] (]) 19:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
==Proposed Decision==
''cross-posted from ]:''

:Thatcher, being the clerk on that arbcom case, I know it is your job to ask Giano nicely not to edit a page he should not be editing. However, color me surprised when I went to ] talk page to see what nice message you sent him and saw from you. Surely you don't approve of edit whereby Fred calls Giano a "bull in the china closet," a "disruptive personality" and a "bad apple"? If Giano cannot edit that page to defend himself, surely Fred shouldn't be baiting Giano on the proposed decision page. It is your job to ensure we have decorum on those pages, how about leaving Fred a nice message asking him not to call people names? ] (]) 20:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

::I understand your concern but it is not my place to publicly disapprove of the members of Arbcom. Also, I think you will find similar frank comments in some pasts cases, as well as in numerous discussions on the admins' noticeboards concerning proposed actions to be taken against allegedly disruptive editors. If you feel that the Arbitrators should be held to a higher standard of decorum then you should open a discussion at ] or ]. ] 20:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

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    This page contains the entire history of my previous talk page. As it has become a vandal target, but has over 5000 edits, making deletion a problem, I moved the history to a history-only archive, to start a fresh new talk page. For most purposes, my traditional archives will be more useful. Thatcher 11:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)