Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 17:07, 19 December 2024

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus - therefore keep by default. – ABCD✉ 21:26, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism in Poland

A look at the history of this page shows strong feelings on either side. There has been considerable effort made to speedy this page, even though it is not really a candidate, and it has been redirected twice to articles which really don't speak to this issue. It seems VfD is rightfully the place for a decision to be made on the fate of this article. Denni☯ 22:46, 2005 July 10 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE: THERE IS AN EDIT WAR OVER THE PAGE. THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT VERSIONS and ~~~~ 22:32,pi 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Votes

• Keep There are already a slew of Jewish-related articles on Misplaced Pages, so why is this one any different from the rest which are not on VFD? TheUnforgiven 22:53, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. This definately needs to be kept. I might add to this one, now that you mention it. -mysekurity 22:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, although it is ogin to have eternal NPOV problems and vandalism. I'll add it to my watchlist. -Splash 23:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
• It seems to me that the scope of this article is already covered at History of the Jews in Poland. I suggest to merge and redirect there. JeremyA 23:09, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete and redirect (as above) or blank and rewrite from the scratches, if there is a need to have a set of separate articles on anti-Semitism in every corner of the world. Preferably from a NPOV by someone not as biased and emotional as the present authors of that thingie. Poles generally being known for being one of the most Anti-Semitic peoples in the world - what rubbish is that? Halibutt 23:10, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland. Current article is POV. Pburka 23:13, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete and redirect to Anti-semitism. We don't need a whole swarm of articles of the sort Antisemitism in (choose any country/city), though surely anti-semitism does exist in just about all countries and cities, to a greater or lesser extent. Balcer 23:17, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep I think that the topic is an interesting one, and considering the fact that before WWII one sixth of all Jews in the world were Polish, I'd say this deserves its own page. That said, the "article" as it now stands is woefully low on information and seems to be more a thought that hits someone one day than an academic encyclopedia article. Nevertheless I'm strongly in favor of keeping the page so that six months hence there will be a fine article on the subject here. - mnuez Edit by 208.54.14.65

208.54.14.65 (talk · contribs) has only 9 contributions including 3 for VfD. --Ttyre 17:26, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep per Splash, please discount my vote if Splash's vote changes from keep -Harmil 23:59, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Space Cadet 00:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete jamesgibbon 00:08, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete and Merge. Resurrected by anon User:83.109.165.120 article, originally redirected to Religious_denominations_in_Poland contains statements which not only are clearly POVs but border with the vandalism. The issue of Polish Anti-Semitism has been addressed in a number of recently discussed and revised articles such as History of the Jews in Poland, Anti-Semitism, History_of_Poland_(1939-1945), History_of_Poland_(1945-1989), Kielce Pogrom, Massacre in Jedwabne. --Ttyre 00:18, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, there is no other article on wiki dealing with anti-Semitism in a specific country - why to create a precedent? Do we really want to have articles on anti-Semitism in France, Great Britain, The Netherlands, Romania, Spain, Germany, US, Canada, Russia, etc.? According to ADL annual reports there is a plenty of data on anti-Semitism in these countries - see: anti-Semitism US, anti-Semitism international. See discussion below. Ttyre 20:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

The vandalism is committed by User:Witkacy who also keeps adding the sentence "Poles generally being known for being one of the most Anti-Semitic peoples in the world"User:83.109.157.141

I have reverted to your previous version... So whats the problem, "83.109.157.141"?--Witkacy 02:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Ttyre: "Delete" and "Merge" are not compatible per Misplaced Pages:Guide_to_Votes_for_deletion#Incompatible_votes. I don't think there's much to merge as long at there's no original content, just copy of another articles' contents. --Wojsyl 19:26, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

• keep, a very importent article A&D (hebrew wikipedia)

Signature on edit unprintable(?) see edit. brenneman 23:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Also what's the consensus on validity of new users from other WK's? I'm too ignorant to verify a user's existence on the Hebrew Misplaced Pages, and then confirming that this edit is by that user seems like a logistical nightmare. brenneman 23:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Votes from other wikipedias' users are not counted here, see: Guide to Votes for delition. --Ttyre 15:49, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

• Deleteand Witkacy should be send to the back of the room. Aaron Brenneman 01:17, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Civility TheUnforgiven 01:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, you are of course correct. I spoke hastily, and for that I apologise. I'll add an apology to Witkacy on his talkpage.

How about: Several participants in this appear to have failed to act in good faith. The criterion for speedy deletion and redirection seem to me not to have been met, and I am disturbed by the partisan nature of some discussion. Aaron Brenneman 02:56, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. That of which you speak is precisely what bothers me. TheUnforgiven 03:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland brenneman 23:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per Ttyre. --SylwiaS 02:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland Avihu 03:45, 11 July 2005 (UTC).
• Also merge and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland. -- Chris 73 Talk 07:37, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete as per Ttyre. JamesBurns 08:53, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per TheUnforgiven's comments. Xoloz 09:27, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. There are many important things to say about anti-Semitism in Poland. It is also true that anti-Semitic statements in public and in private are still more common in modern Poland than they are in most other European countries. However, this article is beyond repair. Apart from the fact that much of the information is inaccurate or simply incorrect (such as the claims about the presence of anti-Semitic cartoons in the mainstream press, attacks against synagogues - which are paradoxically rarer in Poland than in other countries where verbal anti-Semitism is tolerated less, the "deportation" of Jews in 1968). Other portions are deliberately vague to create a false impression in the reader (such "anti-Semitism in Poland as has a long history", "Persecution of Jews took place both before, during and after the Second World War", "During the war many Poles actively took part in the Holocaust"). It is fairly obvious that this article was created in response to the ongoing VFD against Anti-Polonism, and thus constitutes a clear violation of WP:POINT. Let there be no mistake, the history of anti-Semitism in Poland certainly warrants a proper article. I am actually surprised that this prominent topic has not been covered yet. However, if one extracts the useful stuff from this drivel of simplifications and accusations, much too little will be left to justify an article. If no one comes up with any text that does more justice to this complex matter within the usual deadline, it's better to delete the article altogether for the time being. --Thorsten1 10:23, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Update: Based on Piotrus's version I change my vote to keep. --Thorsten1 22:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Another update: When changing my vote from strong delete to conditional keep I was not aware that Piotrus's text was not original but duplicated material from other articles. I appreciate Piotrus's effort at improving this article, but I think there is a case for a seperate article on anti-Semitism in Poland only if redundancy with articles such as Anti-Semitism and History of Jews in Poland is kept to a minimum. In modern Poland, anti-Semitism exists even in the absence of any major Jewish population group - it focuses on "imaginary" Jews in Poland and alleged anti-Polish lobbying by Jews outside Poland. Thus, it is possible and to some extent even necessary to deal with this sociological phenomenon outside the article History of Jews in Poland. However, as long as the article remains a) strongly POV or b) strongly redundant with other articles, I change my vote back to delete. Sorry for adding to the confusion. --Thorsten1 20:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

• • If necessary, be bold, and prune this article down to a sentence or two. As you say, this is a valid topic -- feel free to eliminate whatever you must to achieve NPOV, but let a stub remain for future writers to expand. Xoloz 17:31, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Well, I could certainly do that. However, I won't do so for two reasons: Any reasonable editing is likely to be immediately reverted by POV pushers from either side who are attracted to such articles like moths to a light bulb... Apart from that, as I said above, the non-POV substance of the article would hardly even reach the stub threshold: "Anti-Semitism in Poland exists. After the end of World War II used at certain moments by communist party or individual politicians in order to achieve their political goals." I think we all agree that this would not really be worth keeping. --Thorsten1 22:08, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
• keep Deror 12:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, not encyclo. Radiant_>|< 15:04, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
  • It was pointed out to me that there are two versions of this page. However, that doesn't change my opinion that this is not a good topic. History of Jews in Poland and Anti-Semitism can cover the subject, but the cross-section thereof is, in my opinion, not encyclopedic. Radiant_>|< 07:01, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
• delete useless rant. The article does not describe a single fact. The topic is valid (and pretty much covered in the History of the Jews in Poland), but the article under the vote is garbage. mikka (t) 17:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete as above. The article is a POV rant misduplicating material at History of the Jews in Poland. This subject is valid, but need not be discussed separately from Jewish Polish history. If that article gets too big, the solution is to break it up by dates, not by extracting one aspect as though it were somehow independent from the rest of Jewish history in the various incarnations of Poland. As it stands, this farticle is as much a magnet for trolls and vandals as Anti-Polonism. Tomer 21:31, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
• Treat my vote as Delete unless material is removed from main Anti-Semitism article, then Keep. The article was blatantly POVed, but I fixed it by replacing it by (much more extensive and sourced) text from relevant sections on Anti-Semitism page. Note that this means I deleted all the old content - as many said, it was beyong salvage. For long time there have been discussions at Talk:Anti-Semitism to create such a subarticle(s) and move national anti-semitic material there - this is a good start. I see it as a subarticle to Anti-Semitism. It should be part of the series of Anti-Semitism in Germany, Anti-Semitism in France, Anti-Semitism in Italy, Anti-Semitism in United States, etc - but it should not exists separately. On many levels it is a similar case to Anti-Polonism, IMHO.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 09:15, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Reverted user:Piotrus complete re-write of the article. Please wait till the voting is concluded: couple of dozen people has already voted. Besides, material on anti-Semitism in a specific country from anti-Semitism should be moved to existing articles e.g. history of the Jews in a given country and/or history of that country. --Ttyre 10:50, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I see your point, but in the current state I vote delete (and then possibly recreate and reweite this article as I suggested above).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep Gilgamesh he 11:40, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Votes from other wikipedias' users are not counted here, see: Guide to Votes for delition. --Ttyre 15:49, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
  • He's an active user at the English Misplaced Pages. Why are Jews not counted by Poles?? With your logic, all the Poles coming from pl.wikipedia to vote here should be discounted as well. I'm sure you have an account at pl.User:83.109.139.109

• Comment: The VfD tag says explicitly that "You are welcome to edit this article." The major rewrite that Piotrus executed solves problems raised by nine delete votes (so far) (see here). Wouldn't it be hypocritical to vote delete on account of severe POV, yet revert the article when the POV is fixed? On numerous occasions, VfDs were the cause of major improvement to articles during the VfD. Many times, those improvements caused the articles to be salvaged, having caused many to change their votes. Please don't manipulate the votes of others because you don't want the article at all. HKT 17:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Again, why do you want to create a redundant article thus creating a precedence for A-S + specific country? Look at the bigger picture and compare how A-S and the Holocaust-era past issues are being handled in specific country articles e.g. Romania, Hungary, Austria, etc. I would think that these countries, as major collaborators during The Holocaust, would deserve more of your and similarly-minded editors' attention. --Ttyre 18:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)--Ttyre 18:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• I don't have much of a problem with creating such a precedent. This would allow sections on A-S by country (which would otherwise needlessly elongate the main anti-Semitism article) to have their own articles. I didn't start this article, but, now that it's here, why not use it as a precedent for streamlining the current main A-S article? As Piotr wrote, "It should be part of the series of Anti-Semitism in Germany, Anti-Semitism in France, Anti-Semitism in Italy, Anti-Semitism in United States, etc." And, by the way, I haven't cast a vote yet; I'm currently undecided about whether this is the time to move info from the main A-S article to individual articles. My comment wasn't a call to keep the article, per-se. It was a call to retain the integrity of the VfD, which I believe you have been compromising. HKT 22:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. Notable topic.  Grue  20:11, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
• Merge/redirect to History of the Jews in Poland. Current article is lousy as it is. Pavel Vozenilek 21:06, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete as per Ttyre. --Akumiszcza 21:12, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and Expand per comments by Unforgiven. The fact is that Poland, in many ways, is a special case historically where the issue of anti-Semitism is concerned. The current article is insufficient but no more so than most stubs. It needs considerable expansion. But the existence or non-existence of other articles dealing with antisemitism in specific countries can hardly be a valid criterion for deleting this one.--Briangotts 21:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment The existence or non-existence of other articles can hardly be a valid criterion for deleting or keeping any article. However, please note my changed vote that based upon the excellent work of Piotrus. brenneman 23:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

There has been a suggestion that recent revert warring over very different versions of the page have been used to affect voting. Votes above this note were not informed of this and may need to be considered seperately. ~~~~ 22:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I want my vote to count in full regardless of where in the page it appears. My opinion is unchanged. -Splash 15:18, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Keep a very notable subject in the history and sociology of poland. Klonimus 19:02, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland. Article is POV. ~~~~ 22:38, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete and Redirect to Anti-Semitism --Irishpunktom\ 22:51, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Parts of it could be merged with History of the Jews in Poland and/or Anti-Semitism. This article is one-sided. All aspects should be in History of the Jews in Poland, both good ones and bad ones. Pibwl ←« 23:39, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. This is a notable topic, there is no reason that I am aware of to merge or delete the article. Falphin 01:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Actually this is poor man's version of better structured, more: complete, detailed, balanced and NPOV History of the Jews in Poland. Considering Anti-Semitism (which seriously needs content rearranging anyway), History of the Jews in Poland, History of the Jews in Poland (1572-1795) and History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union (covering partitions of Poland too) and that there is whole line of History of Jews in... articles there is hardly need for just another article becoming seed for another line of similarly POV-ish and one-sided articles. To Piotrus: sorry, actually I viewed your version first and above sentences of poor man version pertain to it. Of course version you corrected had overwhelming POV problem but frankly, IMHO dePOVing redundant article to a less developed version of existing ones is a waste of time. Of course there are parts that could be merged into aforementioned existing articles where they add value to them and this is true value of your work. -- Forseti 11:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. It needs cleanup, but it's a notable subject. TheCoffee 12:15, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. --Hbk3 12:27, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

• Hbk3 is a Misplaced Pages:Sock puppet - no other activity besides this vote. --Ttyre 12:39, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. I agree with Forseti's opinion. A.J. 14:59, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with History of the Jews in Poland. – Kpalion (talk) 15:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete-there is already a huge section on Polish perceived antisemitism in other articles.This one is extremely POV.Molobo

Molobo (talk · contribs)'s 24th edit. Also involved in anti-Polonism VfD. HKT 03:00, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep and cleanup - This is a valid topic and the article contains good information. Clearly it needs to be cleaned up, but deleting it is a mistake - just because Poles don't want to deal with this subject doesn't mean it didn't happen. GabrielF 15:56, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

• Please read justifications for deletion again, most votes for deletion are also for merging its content with existing articles. Please be more considerate when tempted to use such a POV-ed ethnic stereotyping, see: Misplaced Pages:Civility. --Ttyre 16:39, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland. Article is POV. This is the most reasonable solution. Cautious 19:28, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete and merge where applicable. Otherwise a useless rant. Agree with User:Ttyre. --Wojsyl (talk) 21:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
• merge/redirect content into History of the Jews in Poland: it already covers antisemitism, like all other ] articles, see Category:Jewish history. mikka (t)
• That's a very important subject. However, both sides of the edit war clearly don't have a clue about anti-Semitism in 20th/21st century Poland. There are many disturbing things in longer version's description of pre-20th century events. It uses mostly secondary sources and an almost exclusively focuses on anti-Semitic events to the exclusion of background information. It doesn't look like an article written in good faith. Where's the information about Jewish position in the social structure of the First Republic, about the situations of other faiths in it, about Jewish involvement in socialist and communist movement, the conflict between the socialists/communists and Polish nationalists which fed early 20th-century anti-Semitism, about anti-Jewish pogroms in czarist Russia which also spread to occupied Poland, about situation of other minorities in the Second Republic, cooperation of Jews in occupied Poland with the Soviet government, about involvement of many usually "anti-Semitic" nationalists in anti-Holocaust activities, and about usage of word "Żyd" to mean "member of the leftist/liberal conspiracy" by the modern nationalists (that's why asking people questions on anti-Semitism in Poland is futile - the nationalists believe they're answering different question than one the inquirer believes he's asking) ? It's a horrible article. I, for one, don't think it's possible to write a good article on the subject alone, while leaving the background information elsewhere. Therefore I'm strongly for deleting the article and redirecting to History of the Jews in Poland. Taw 08:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

• I don't think that anyone wants to keep either version as the final one. Both would need major improvement. However, while History of the Jews in Poland provides a good summary of anti-Semitism in Poland, it doesn't really get into background and underlying dynamics, which you have said are important. It also doesn't get into the controversies regarding the extent of and reasons for anti-Semitism. I think that, theoretically (at least), this article would be necessary for a more thorough analysis of this topic. However, as Piotr mentioned, someone should be willing to work on this article. I don't really foresee that for the near future, but there will certainly be a time when this article will be needed. HKT 16:28, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete redundant Tirid Tirid 23:36, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete - A bunch of immaterial anti Polish accusations by "83.109.157.141". Schwartz und Weiss 00:24, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep - Anti-semitism might exist in all countries but there are definite concentrations at specific hot-spots and Poland is a major one. If anything there should be more articles, not less, on this topic (tackling different aspects of it). --wayland 17:32, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

• Oh really? It appears to me that you must be deeply prejudiced on this subject because hard data doesn't support your view that Poland is a major hot spot for anti-Semitism. Please see for yourself the Israeli website The Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism listing contemporary anti-Semitic incidents around the world. Some examples of a number of A-S incidents by country: France 828, Great Britain 798, Russia 352, US 216, Germany 120, Spain & Austria 56, Poland 40, Italy 31. Poland, population-size, is slightly smaller than Spain. Also, in the future, be more careful when tempted to used similar statements - they are often being considered as an example of anti-Polonism. --Ttyre 20:27, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

• I object to the personal nature of the response from Ttyre. I'm happy to discuss the various ways that this topic should be addressed but I'm not prepared to enter into personal mud-slinging contests. --wayland 16:46, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

• It also should be noticed that out of the 40 incidents observed in Poland since Sept. 2000 till today only 18 were Anti-Semitic out of which one was committed by a French tourist. Here’s the list by categories:

Attack 0

Violent incident 6

Desecration 2

Harassment 2 (first - three boys shouting the word “Jew” at a Jewish tourist, second - a French tourist hit an Israeli tourist)

Threat 0

Propaganda 8

Straggle against Anti-Semitism 3

Miscellaneous 0

Remaining 19 are discoveries of WWII mass graves, reports from trials etc. --SylwiaS 00:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for proving my point below, Sylwia. Quite obviously this is a very randomly compiled list. To get an idea of how misleading and contradictory statistical results can be, refer to the Anti-Defamation League's 2005 study on attitudes in European countries and see how Poland scores. There is no denying the problem. The question remains how and where to address it in Misplaced Pages. I think we agree that the present article is unacceptable.--Thorsten1 09:42, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

• Actually it’s not a randomly compiled list. It’s a list of all incidents related to anti-Semitism that took place in Poland in indicated time. The poll you linked to is among the remaining 19. I agree that numbers never tell everything, but I’m also not sure what questions the poll answers. I looked through the pdf study of this poll, and I really have more questions than answers. I don’t deny anything, I just don’t understand how the poll can be helpful in altering attitude towards Jews unless there is another poll, which answers the questions. --SylwiaS 00:09, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

• Let's try to stay civil, Ttyre. The frequency of anti-Semitic incidents is not the only standard by which to measure the problem. Statistics are rarely a reliable basis for comparisons, too many variables interfere, such as what is defined and gets reported as an "anti-Semitic incident"; also not only the overall size of the population is a factor, but also the number of Jewish citizens, Jewish institutions etc. Also, the past is of equal importance as the present. There can be no serious doubt that Poland, up to WW II a multi-ethnic country with a huge portion of Jews with a distinct ethnic identity, was also more burdened with ethnic conflict, including but not limited to Polish-Jewish conflict, than ethnically homogenous countries in the west. The semi-truth of the żydokomuna is very much a Polish issue, the events of 1968 are quite unparalleled, and until today conspiracy theories involving real or imaginary Jews thrive better in Poland than in many other countries - most recently in response to the Jedwabne affair. Of course, most accusations of past and present anti-Semitism in Poland stubbornly ignore its specific context, are unbearably complacent and often attempts of absolving oneself of one's "own" anti-Semitism. The original version of the article we are or should be discussing here is a textbook example of this. On the other hand, though, nervously attacking anyone who merely mentions anti-Semitism in Poland with hip-fired accusations of anti-Polonism isn't at all better - in fact, the concept of anti-Polonism suffers the very same defects as the concept of anti-Semitism. Plus, like it or not, few people outside Poland care to take it seriously, so complaints about anti-Polonism can backfire badly. --Thorsten1 23:57, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

• I live outside Poland and am taking the issue of A-P seriously. --Ttyre 00:34, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

• Then you certainly know well enough what I meant, don't you?. --Thorsten1 09:42, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete - not just the article, but the very idea, is either a sick joke, or anti-Polish propaganda. Rübezahl 00:16, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep (but make a subpage) As one of the people who has been laboring very hard on History of the Jews in Poland (and I strongly suggest that people voting here spend a few minutes reading the talk page), I have been putting a lot of thought into this vote. On one hand, something that came out of writing the article is that it is clear that Poland is often unfairly blamed for being much more anti-semitic than it was for much of its history, especially before the 19th century. On the other hand, it is also clear that there is a historical thread of severe anti-semitism from the 1920s-1930s through at least the 1970s in Poland (and, as recent surveys indicate, probably until today), and that discussion of this topic is often difficult. I think that the current History of the Jews in Poland page does a good job dealing with many of these issues, but that, as both a history article and a long one at that, it does not delve into the subject in much depth outside of the chronology of events, which does a disservice to both the Polish history of tolerance and the persecutions of Polish Jews when they did happen. Thus, I would suggest that we turn this page into a subpage of the History of the Jews in Poland dealing specifically with the issue of anti-semitism in Polish history. I would hope that we could develop an article here that would neither bash Poland nor deny anti-semitic threads in recent Polish history. That may be too much to hope for, but deleting the article seems to beg the question, no matter what perspective you may have on the topic. At least this article creates a good place to discuss both the myths and the facts, rather than denying that this issue is not one of curiosity and importance to many people. --Goodoldpolonius2 02:32, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete V1 13:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Delete. logologist 17:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete or rewrite, The European Jewish Congress warned about anti-semitic policies in Poland in 2004, at same time many Jewish persons protested about that message in Polish media, i don't think its NPOV version, better create one page with many nation if you have to.rafikk

Discussion

The article's special nature, deals with an atypical problem. Jews were afforded comforts by the rulers of Poland, but most of the Christian citizens did not enjoy this relationship between them. When Jews were going around the world to proclaim their own pain in reference to the Holocaust, Poles felt left out and anti-Semitism rose by clear margins. Whilst Christian Poles were treated somewhat different from the Jews by the Nazis, the rest of the world did not know the background to German-Polish violence. I have a feeling that the naysayers of this vote are tied to the page here: Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-Polonism Is it true, that none of you care about the Poles but are frothing at the mouth to feel pity for the Jews? There is much ignorance of Central and Eastern European social history, in Western eyes. TheUnforgiven 00:29, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

But what does it have to do with this, clearly POVed, article? Halibutt 01:06, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Fix the POV, but the article is salvageable on the bases specified. Don't take it personal. TheUnforgiven 01:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree with you - sure, the subject you bring up is an interesting one and should be covered - just not here. The current article is highly redundant - as stated in the vote above. Furthermore - it does not deal with the interesting issue you raised. I suggest you write a new article on the above subject, name it something like "Impacts of WWII, the holocust and Sovietic rule on the anti-semitism in Poland" (I'm sure you can come up with a shorter name) and let this one be gone. Orion from he.wiki

I wonder, is there anybody here who will actually promise to work on this article? While I am working to FA History of the Jews in Poland, I doubt I will have much interest and will to work on this subarticle much. Anybody else? Beacuse if nobody is willing to improve this, then perhaps delete is the best option after all. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:38, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

No that is not right. There are hundreds of unfinished articles that need to be cleaned up. TheUnforgiven 21:24, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Interesting quotes by user 83.109.XXX.XXX (who created this article):

• "I don't see the Holocaust against the Palestinians mentioned in the Israel article!"
• " believe the Zionist needs to be banned from editing this page. Or what do you say, Gustav and Heimdal? Should we go to the Israel article and make it primarily an article about the Jewish ethnic cleansing, occupation and genocide of the Palestinians? Perhaps the United States should mostly deal with the genocide on native Americans, Africans and Abu Ghraib, preferably with a lot of the well-known pictures from the camp?"
• "Half of the German parliament, i.e. the conservative opposisition, voted against this very controversial memorial the socialists have set up in Berlin on behest of a mentally disturbed communist known as "Lea Rosh", a women who like to pretend to be Jewish (to attract publicity) but is actually not Jewish at all and have changed her name from Edith Rohs. This person has sued newspapers who wrote about her name change. I'm sure the Rohs memorial will be removed following the next federal election, along with the much discussed wall memorial"
• "Local politics of Saxony belongs in the Saxony article. And NPD is not a "neonazi" party, but a nationalist party (they use the term national democrats). Alleged similarities with national socialism may be described in the article dealing with the party, though"

--Witkacy 00:47, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

This voting, contrary to the concerns of some voters, is not about eliminating the material related to anti-Semitism in Poland but about improving the quality and reducing its redundancy. Efforts of the editors working diligently on History of the Jews in Poland during the last couple of months is a best example of this process. It is also about counter-acting the disruptive action(s) of User: 83.109.165.120 who, according to User:Witkacy, is utilizing a number of IP addresses to inject provocative and POV material . Resurrecting an extremely POV version of the article Anti-Semitism in Poland, this user has tried to raise the temperature of various discussions on Polish-Jewish issues and further antagonize involved editors. IMO, wiki is not only about creating good articles, but also about relating them to each other. This point is well illustrated in the Database normalization concept. Accordingly, a good example of de-normalized material has been Chmielnicki Uprising for which redundant and sometimes conflicting material appears in: Chmielnicki Uprising, Anti-Semitism, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Piotrus’ version of Anti-Semitism in Poland, and others. --Ttyre 17:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

"Resurrecting an extremely POV version of the article Anti-Semitism in Poland...."

A minor correction: The anonymous user created the POV material. However, when that user later tried to resurrect Piotr's more NPOV version, he/she was repeatedly reverted by User:Witkacy and User:Ttyre. HKT 17:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.