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| == Link to discussion about Northern Epirus artcile on Wikiproject Greece page == | |||
| Can we please maintain some ] about this article? It is ridiculous to mention ] everywhere ] is mentioned. There are Greek minorities in the region, but this does not make it part of the territory of Greece. As far as the treatment of the minorities goes, if the Greek minorities in Albania were treated like the Albanian minorities in Greece, Greece would probably declare war on Albania. I have friends who live in some of these villages of southern Albania and they would consider themselves to be of Greek descent. They do speak Greek and Albanian, and although they are not loved by the rest of the Albanians (due to relations with Greece), they are not mistreated. At the same time, there are many more Albanians (having been born in Albanian territory, who consider themselves such, are seen as such by the Albanian government, do not speak Greek, etc) and it would be entirely wrong to classify them as Greeks simply because the Greek government and population desires it. ] 17:44 19 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
| Link to discussion about Northern Epirus article on Wikiproject Greece page | |||
| -It's only fair to take into consideration Greece's right to land claims in Epirus when Albanians do the same for land in Yugoslavia.(ie:Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia) | |||
| == Incident not relating to this article == | |||
| -I agree. If Albanians want a greater Albania, they should relinquish where the majority of people speak Greek or have a Greek conscience (in the case of many Vlachs). The current boundaries of the state of Albania, drawn by the Great Powers of the day to serve their interests, do not reflect the reality of today and need to be redrawn. ^^^^ptsourkas | |||
| @] I am not going to continue this, but the reason for "Northern Epirus" being mentioned is due to the specific low-quality outlet you've chosen. In the same way, I could provide numerous news articles from Albanian outlets that do not mention it. It would be more informative to see how authoritative, serious news outlets reported the news, like "Associated Press" (one of those you've included yourself). Associated Press did not mention "Northern Epirus", because it's unrelated. ] (]) 20:18, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| - The fact that the number of Albanians living in Greece has increased from virtually nil in 1990 to nearly 1 million today shows that they are well treated and welcomed by Greece. Nearly all of them have jobs and, even though they are recent immigrants, they fully participate in Greece's generous social security system, and in the nearly free healthcare system. By contrast the ethnic Greek population of Northern Epirus (representing in 1990 some 20% of the total population of Albania) has dwindled in numbers in the past decade due represssion fueled by the nationalism of the Albanian government. Let us not forget that Albania is a country with a questionable human rights record and inconsistent application of the rule of law. By contrast, Greece is a full fledged democracy that earned EU membership 25 years ago. | |||
| ::There is no issue about the sources I've provided, they are RS, they mention that Himara is part of the region known as Northern Epirus. If one out of many sources does not mention N.E that's obviously not an excuse to claim that the events are unrelated. You should not rely exclusively on Albanian newspapers, that's the English wikipedia.] (]) 20:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] APN is not Albanian, and it seems that neither Ta Nea (Greek) nor other authoritative European newspapers make any mention of it. In addition, the newspapers you've provided placed the story (of NE) in a specific section without wanting to establish any ''explicit'' link. This tells us a lot about the quality of these publications. ] (]) 20:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Agree, the event of the arrest pf Fredi Beleri has essentially nothing to do with the geopolitical concept of Northern Epirus. I will go ahead and remove it until Alexikoua can provide a reason as to how these two subjects are linked. ] (]) 20:52, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Beleri's arrest was reported in multiple international news sources and is very notable. Of course it is related to Northern Epirus. No explanation has been provided as to how it is not related. Until then it should stay. ] (]) 21:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] Before writing, it’s important to read and understand the context. While this incident has been covered by various newspapers, it does not pertain to Northern Epirus as a geopolitical entity. Authoritative news outlets such as ''Associated Press News'' do not mention NE. That is simply because it is unrelated. Simply stating "of course it is related" is not sufficient. On the other hand, some low-quality Greek newspapers have mentioned NE in a separate section, but without establishing any explicit connection. ] (]) 21:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{tq|some low-quality Greek newspaper}}? What exactly makes the newspaper "low-quality"? Is it the fact that it's Greek? Besides, Providence, which is not Greek, also mentions Northern Epirus and explicitly connects it. ] (]) 22:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] You know what determines the authority of a newspaper, so don't play that card. Instead, can you provide any evidence that the arrest of Bejleri was ''not'' a coincidence and that it was due to him supporting Northern Epirus? Even the least reputable of the news outlets would not explicitly make such a claim. ] (]) 22:39, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] To make things clear: Beleri was arrested for ''vote-buying'' and nothing else, which is why it is not relevant to this article. ] (]) 22:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::How is it not relevant? As one of the sources makes clear, there were 31 cases of alleged vote-buying, yet only Beleris was arrested. It's not a coincidence. ] (]) 22:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::How is it relevant to this article specifically? Was he arrested because he supported an idea of Northern Epirus? Was he voted in because of the same reason? This is what would make the even fit in the ] of the article. ] (]) 22:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If you read the sources you removed, you would see how the matter falls within the scope of the article. It's the latest installment in a long history of repression of the Greek minority, and fits within the pattern of the content described in the article. ] (]) 23:48, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Instead of "repression", I see a person buying votes in a video. Wait until/if reliable academic sources say sth on the issue. ] (]) 00:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::And he was not a "Greek minority candidate" because the main party of his coalition was Berisha's party. Beleri's own party won a small fraction of the votes for the municipality council. ] (]) 00:14, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{tq|As one of the sources makes clear, there were 31 cases of alleged vote-buying, yet only Beleris was arrested}} Absolutely not true. Several people were arrested for vote buying throughout Albania, and that can be easily sourced. ] (]) 01:24, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] {{tquote|Providence also mentions NE and explicitly connects it.}} No, it does not. In all 5 instances, its mention is either a quote from or related to a written letter by Greek Ioannis Lagos to the European Commission. Instead, along the article, the focus is on the "violation" of minority rights in Greece, which is why this incident should be taken to ] or to ]. ] (]) 07:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Map == | |||
| :Do the Albanians really use the expression "Northern Epirus"? It surprises me a bit, honestly.--] 13:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|Alltan}} started in March a topic about the infobox map (]). I didn't have the time then to read about the subject, but it requires a more in-depth discussion. According to Alltan {{tquote|the map (...) refers to claimed numbers of Greeks but it doesn't acknowledge that Albanians live and they make up the majority in most of the "green area"}}, but I think that the issue should be discussed differently: | |||
| ::I removed it. i had not noticed it earlier. the Albanian government rejects the usage of that term, with the pretext that it implies territorial claims. quite the contrary, they use the term 'Tsamouria' for ] by implying nationalistic claims. since the term 'Northern Epirus' is the one used by the greeks and, in some cases, in the english-speaking world (not sure about other languages), the term in Albanian is not relevant here. About the citation u asked concerding the fact that the region is predominantly Greek Orthodox, i can't really understand if it can be disputed: the greek minority (whether it numbers 3% or 12%) is concentrated there. the Aromanian minority (also greek orthodox, and included in the 12% figure that i said above) is also there. the Tosk albanians (a great number of whom is greek orthodox) resides in the albanian south, while the predominantly muslim Ghegs live in the north... i doubt if someone can say the opposite. --] 13:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| **The map doesn't depict any Greek claims and it doesn't represent Greek historiography as represented in major specialist sources which are used in many articles. It is based on a single map from a source which is not academic, but a newspaper. It is an exampled of ] and ]. | |||
| ***{{cite book|last=Kokolakis|first=Mihalis|title=Το ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι: χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυσμός στην τουρκοκρατούμενη Ηπειρο (1820–1913) [The late Pashalik of Ioannina: Space, administration and population in Ottoman ruled Epirus (1820–1913)]|year=2003|location=Athens|publisher=EIE-ΚΝΕ|url=http://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/handle/10442/8080|isbn=960-7916-11-5|page=52}} summarizes the extent of local Greeks in the vilayet of Janina in the late Ottoman era: | |||
| :::About the Albanian name, OK. About religion, it remains unsourced, and could easily be untrue. Personally, I believe that the majority are atheist. I'll remove it until it is sourced. --] 14:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ****{{tquote|Τα αλβανικά αποτελούσαν την κυρίαρχη ομιλούμενη γλώσσα προς τα βόρεια μιας γραμμής που άρχιζε από την περιοχή των Αγίων Σαράντα, περνούσε δίπλα από τις πόλεις Δέλβινο και Αργυρόκαστρο (ανάμεσα στα χωριά Κολορτσί και Δερβιτσάνη) και φτάνοντας στην Πολίτσανη, όπου και το βορειότερο άκρο της επαρχίας του Πωγωνιού, στρεφόταν προς τα νοτιοανατολικά και ακολουθούσε περίπου την πορεία των σημερινών ελληνοαλβανικών συνόρων53. Τα εδάφη που βρίσκονται νότια απ' αυτή τη γραμμή, δηλαδή το μεγαλύτερο τμήμα της κοιλάδας της Δρόπολης, τα βορινά χωριά του Πωγωνιού, τα περισσότερα χωριά της Ρίζας του Δελβίνου (Δρόβιανη, Μάλτσανη, Δίβρη, Λεσινίτσα) και ο κάμπος του Βούρκου μεταξύ Δελβίνου και Αγίων Σαράντα ορίζουν μέχρι σήμερα την έκταση των ελληνικών μειονοτικών περιοχών στην Αλβανία. (...) α. Ο συμπαγής ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός καταλάμβανε το σύνολο των εδαφών στα νότια και ανατολικά του ελληνοαλβανικού γλωσσικού συνόρου, όπως το περιγράψαμε παραπάνω, με εξαίρεση τις βλαχόφωνες περιοχές της Πίνδου, τους αλβανόφωνους της Τσαμουριάς και κάποιες ακόμη μεμονωμένες γλωσσικές νησίδες (τα αλβανόφωνα χωριά της Δρόπολης Φραστανή και Μουζίνα, τους Τουρκόγυφτους της Βοστίνας56, τους Αρβανιτόβλαχους του Μετζητιέ κ.λπ.). Σε αυτόν περιλαμβάνονταν και οι περισσότεροι από τους αστικούς μουσουλμανικούς και εβραϊκούς πληθυσμούς των Ιωαννίνων, της Αρτας και της Κόνιτσας. β. Ο διεσπαρμένος ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός περιλάμβανε τις ελληνόφωνες νησίδες που βρίσκονταν πέρα από το κυρίως ελληνοαλβανικό γλωσσικό σύνορο, δηλαδή ορισμένα παραλιακά χωριά στην περιοχή της Τσαμουριάς (Σαγιάδα-Μαυρούδι), τρία στη Χειμάρρα (Χειμάρρα-Δρυμάδες-Παλιάσα), δύο στην Αυλώνα (Αρτα και Σβερνέτσι) και μικρό αριθμό οικογενειών στα αστικά κέντρα του Αργυροκάστρου και της Αυλώνας.}} This description by Kokolakis is what all relevant sources - including Greek authors like Giakoumis and Kallivretakis - in relevant article discuss except for this one. The map created by {{u|Alexikoua}} overextends the area inhabited by Greeks to areas where no Greeks lived and Greek was never spoken. As such, the point of view advocated by Alexikoua's map doesn't reflect Greek, Albanian or international historiography. I exclusively referred to Kokolakis (2008) without presenting the consensus in Albanian historiography in order to highlight that the consensus in Greek historiography doesn't support Alexikoua's opinions in the slightest. If Alexikoua is willing to change the map according to Kokolakis (2003), then I can wait for a week for him to apply necessary changes to the map. If Alexikoua isn't willing to change the map then I will remove it as this is what is explicitly expected to be done in such cases. If Alexikoua doesn't even respond - as has happened in the past - then it's a ] negative response and I will remove the map.--] (]) 11:36, 9 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::The map was created by Future Perfect and it's stated in the maps description, I just made some minor adjustments without changing any borders/regions. I suggest it should be wise you inform the creator. ] (]) 03:43, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hectorian, less than 2/3 of Albanians in Albania are Tosk. Orthodox accounts for 20% of the population, and Catholicism for 10% (mostly in the North), so please do not act as if you know something when you in fact know nothing. And by the way Albanians are not part of the Greek Orthodox Church, but The ALBANIAN Orthodox Church, founded by Fan Noli because a GREEK Orthodox priest refused to officiate at the burial of an Albanian in Hudson, Massachusetts on the grounds that, as a nationalist, the deceased was automatically excommunicated. --] 22:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::My opinion is to change the area to the one based on Le Monte Diplomatique. On the other hand Kokolakis doesn't provide a map on this and creating a map simply being based on partial geographic descriptions isn't the best option and OR is a possibility. Le Monte Dimplatique has provided a solid map on this case.] (]) 04:17, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The earliest version of the map shows {{u|Alexikoua}} as . ''Le Monde Diplomatique'' is not an academic source and anything published by any newspaper doesn't have any ] when compared to historiographical sources which specialize in the specific subject. I'll remove the map per the consensus in bibliography and I will expand part of the article based on Kokolakis (2003).-- | |||
| ==Isn't this article going a bit astray?== | |||
| ] (]) 15:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Don't misunderstand me, its much better than before, but it's also getting out of topic. Wouldn't it be better to reduce this articles and create a ]? Much of the content of the article goes well beyond Northern Epirus, as Greco-Albanian relations or the Greek minority in all Albania.--] 22:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@Maleschreiber: A say it again: this is the original map: ] & creator is Fut. This is also stated that in the later version ]. I usually try to be kind and inform the creators if there are issues with their images. I suggest you should follow that advice.] (]) 00:28, 11 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::A map in the infobox is essential for an article such as this. We can modify the map, or replace it with something like this , with a caption along the lines of "Maximal territorial claim of Northern Epirus" or something similar. I note that similar articles, like ], have a map in the infobox. ] (]) 23:24, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ==The Flag of Greeks in Albania== | |||
| ::::::Btw, here is the original version by {{ping|Future Perfect at Sunrise}} . Not sure why it's in Spanish though. ] (]) 23:25, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Why is the Albanian two headed eagle randomly placed on the flag? They are Greeks right? --] 22:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::''Le Monde Diplomatique'' is wp:RS it's actually one of the best modern sources about international relations and diplomacy, nothing wrong on it. We can use the Greek minority border without hesitation.] (]) 00:31, 11 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The map in the infobox of Chameria is completely different to the map used here; if you'd like to propose something similar, sure, we can see what options there are. Nonetheless, this map is incorrect, misleading and gives the wrong impression in regards to Greeks in Albania. The distribution of Greeks in Albania (which as was previously stated is incorrect and misleading in this map) is also not worthy of inclusion in this article's infobox. We don't have an ethnographic map of the historical distribution of Chams in Chameria for the Chameria article. ] (]) 01:52, 11 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I'll remove the flag. What is often perceived as the flag of the Greek community in Albania (e.g. ) is in fact the flag of the government of Northern Epirus . The double-headed eagle on the flag has nothing to do with Albania, but it is a popular symbol amongst Greeks (for example, it appears on the emblem of the ] and used to be on the national emblem etc).--] 22:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::The map in the infobox of Chameria (that's my creation indeed) also includes areas where Albanians were tiny minorities and its based on a map of Kokolakis, as such it's not OR. On the other hand Kokolakis doesn't offer a map on the Greek speaking population. Kokolakis just provides a partial picture of areas with compact Greek presence of the mid-19th century. Kallivretakis a partial picture of the end of the 20th century. Le Monte Diplomatique is quite helpfull to provide a clear picture on this by providing a map with the areas of Greek presence in s.Albania. The region should include areas where Greeks are also a local minority (Leskovik, Korce, Permet etc) not just the majority ones.] (]) 03:03, 11 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{u|Khirurg}}'s proposal about a map which depicts just the geographical limits of the concept solves many issues. {{ping|Alexikoua}} Neither Kokolakis, nor Kallivretakis describe a partial picture. They describe where Greeks/Greek-speakers live(d) from the 19th century to today and where they didn't. This excludes all areas northeast of Biovizhdë, which is a Vlach village, all of ], much of ], ] and other areas. The map was removed because it depicted all of these areas as inhabited by Greeks/Greek-speakers. As this is not the case, the map was removed. If a realistic map which doesn't contradict many other articles was created, it wouldn't be opposed. One thing which I'm starting to realize by comparing different authors is that differences between authors from Albania and Greece are far fewer than what they're made to be by Alexikoua's edits. There are differences in interpretation - as expected - and these differences generate different POVs, but the gap between the POVs doesn't correspond to narratives which come up here.--] (]) 21:59, 11 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == The Flag == | |||
| The double headed eagle happens to be the old flag of the Empire of the Greeks or as it was known in western Europe Imperium Graekaorum. (Nowadays known as Byzantine Empire, a term never used by any "Byzantine"). So that's why the double headed flag is so important to Greeks, it's the national medieval symbol of Greece as a nation. | |||
| The Byzantine Empire persecuted specially the Greek and this well known, in the other hand the double headed eagle is very old pelasgic emblem more then 4 thousand years old found in Tepelena. The northern Epirus organization in reality is formed by arvanitas to protect their right in Greece then it turned agained their own people. The actual Greece flag is imported by the Germany for your artificial state. Dodona | |||
| No Dodona. The Byzantine empire prosecuted the Byzantines (or Romioi, or Greeks or whatever you want to call them) that "Elinizane" meaning the pagans or people trying to bring back the old religion. That is why Emperor Ioulios (or Julius) was called the "paravatis" (or outlaw) and Theodosios was called the "o megas" (the great). ] (]) 03:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)nefeligeretis] | |||
| Pelasgians are Pelasgians not greek,not albanian The firt bicephalous eagle was founded in Asia Minor Hittite | |||
| == Flag agin == | |||
| To the anons who keep adding a makeup flag, please note the following: what you are adding is not the flag of the Greek community; the Greek community does not have a flag. What you are adding is the flag of the provisional state of Northern Epirus (see ) and it did not include the Albanian double headed eagle, it was the Byzantine eagle. I agree that the flag of the temporary state should be included if we include data on it. See also the other posts on this page. //] 14:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The Byzantine Empire persecuted specially the Greek and this well known, in the other hand the double headed eagle is very old pelasgic emblem more then 4 thousand years old found in Tepelena. The northern Epirus organization in reality is formed by arvanitas to protect their right in Greece then it turned agained their own people. The actual Greece flag is imported by the Germany for your artificial state. Dodona | |||
| == Recent Edit == | |||
| Permission has been given to reproduce text from . Permission can be shown on request. | |||
| Regards, | |||
| ''']]''' 14:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==Fundamental bias== | |||
| “Orthodox Christian Albanian-speaking Greek-identifying community in Greece – migrated from this region to present-day Greece in the Middle Ages.” Are originally Albanian which came from Epir therefore autochthones there. The epir has nothing to do with Greeks no mater how Arvantas identify themselves.Dodona <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 17:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> | |||
| ==Territory or what?== | |||
| This article doesn't seem to be about a ''region'' at all; it's wholly concerned with an ethnic community, viz. the local Greek minority. What are the boundaries of this region? What are its main towns, area and population, sites of interest, main rivers and mountains? Can we see a map of the region? Best, ]'']'' ] 19:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == WikiProject class rating== | |||
| This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. ] 16:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == concerned about the ] in this article == | |||
| This article sounds like a right-wing Greek nationalists favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece. What is North Epirus? Who is the president? I have marked this article as NPOV, since it contains glaring omissions and factual inaccuracies and has a completely pro-Greek wording which doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages. We should present facts neutrally and not praise one people or another.--] (]) 05:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Its referenced and presents many views from both parties and third parties regarding the populations involved.] (]) 08:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hi there. Would you care to elaborate on your claim that the article is not neutral? The article nowhere calls for the unification of Northern Epirus with Greece. It doesn't even imply that. So how does it sound "like a right-wing Greek nationalists favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece"? ] is a geographic region in the ]. The southern part is called Southern Epirus, the northern part is called Northern Epirus. Like North and South America. Simple as that. It is not a country, so it does not have president (although it was an independent state between 1918-1923). You also state that the article contains glaring omissions and factual inaccuracies. Could you give a few examples? And what about the claim of "completely pro-Greek wording"? Examples, please. The article essentially covers the Greek minority in Albania. The existence of this minority is a fact, despite the most determined attempts by the Albanian government to minimize it as much as possible. Here's what the article does state: In the introduction, the article defines the concept of northern Epirus, and what it is most known for (the foustanella, and the Arvanites). Following this, the article discusses the definition of the Greek minority by the Albanian government, as well as its relation with the ] minority (who do indeed identify as Greeks. See relevant article). No bias so far. The next few paragraphs present the various estimates regarding the size of the minority. All sides are presented, including the dubious numbers of the Albanian government (you will notice there is actually no recent census figure, as the Albanian government deliberately omits questions on ethnicity or ethnic consciousness on the census in order to deny the existence of minorities). So this section cannot be accused of bias either. Next, the article discusses the political treatment of the minority, including all relevant incidents and the somewhat heavy-handed response of the Greek goevernment. This is discussed in a calm, objective manner, with neutral wording, and thus this section also seems pretty neutral to me. The article then discusses how the existence of the Greek minority has affected the relations between Greece and Albania, and again does so in a neutral manner. The article then highlights some famous memebers of said minority. Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere, does it praise one people over another. Where do you see evidence of that? There are minorities in most countries of the world, and Albania is no exception. It just so happens that this minority happens to be Greek (maybe because they're neighbors?). It seems to me that from what you wrote and the tone you use, that you are somehow opposed to the notion of a Greek minority in Albania. That is irrelevant to this article. You added the neutrality tag, so the burden of proof is on you to provide examples of bias in the article. If you fail to do so I will remove it. --] (]) 09:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Fillim i ri - Νέο ξεκίνημα. == | |||
| Me too,'''I think it did''' sounded like a right-wing Greek ] (not the real Greeks) favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called ] with Greece. Go watch shows Greek crimes (which in my opinionate are Greek nationalist criminals) in Epirus against Ethnic Arvanites - ]. Epirus was part of Albanians and Greeks. Let’s add more ] between these two nations, not the war and not the hate. In some way is better for Greece too, you never heard of Albania invading Greece,maybe the Italians. We have so much in common, maybe we have the same ancestors, who knows, we have fought together side by side.(at least my great grandpa and his dad did) --] (]) 20:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC) | |||
| p.s.I make the best souvlaki and tzatziki ever. | |||
| :How about making an attempt at ''correcting what you think is wrong with the article instead of posting irrelevant messages'' about 'Greek nationalist crimes' and 'Greek-Albanian friendship'? Sure, good sentiments (let's pretend, despite your general behaviour) but still irrelevant. ] (]) 23:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::The existence of a Greek (and Greek-idnetifying Vlach) minority in the southern regions of Albania, especially in the areas of Himarra, Saranda, Gjirokastar, Permet, and Korce is a fact, pure and simple. Before we continue, this has to be accepted and understood. To deny the existence of this minority and make noise about "Greek nationalist crimes" in some YouTube video is in itself nationalism, as well as a diversion. The only debate, as far as I'm concerned, is over the size of said minority (which is admittedly tricky to estimate). I do not understand why some Albanian editors feel so threatened by the existence of a Greek minority in southern Albania/Northern Epirus (which I use SOLELY as a geographic expression, no offense to anyone). The Greek government has never, ever, called for the annexation of the Greek minority areas to Greece, and neither does this article. As far as I know, most Greek people are against opening the can of worms of border changes, and only wish for the human rights of the Greek minority to be respected, as should be the case in a country that desires to become a member of the EU. The current treatment of the Greek minority in Albania by the Albanian government is unfair to say the least and reveals an intense paranoia. --] (]) 07:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC) | |||
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Link to discussion about Northern Epirus artcile on Wikiproject Greece page
Link to discussion about Northern Epirus article on Wikiproject Greece page
Incident not relating to this article
@Alexikoua I am not going to continue this, but the reason for "Northern Epirus" being mentioned is due to the specific low-quality outlet you've chosen. In the same way, I could provide numerous news articles from Albanian outlets that do not mention it. It would be more informative to see how authoritative, serious news outlets reported the news, like "Associated Press" (one of those you've included yourself). Associated Press did not mention "Northern Epirus", because it's unrelated. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 20:18, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is no issue about the sources I've provided, they are RS, they mention that Himara is part of the region known as Northern Epirus. If one out of many sources does not mention N.E that's obviously not an excuse to claim that the events are unrelated. You should not rely exclusively on Albanian newspapers, that's the English wikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Alexikoua APN is not Albanian, and it seems that neither Ta Nea (Greek) nor other authoritative European newspapers make any mention of it. In addition, the newspapers you've provided placed the story (of NE) in a specific section without wanting to establish any explicit link. This tells us a lot about the quality of these publications. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 20:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is no issue about the sources I've provided, they are RS, they mention that Himara is part of the region known as Northern Epirus. If one out of many sources does not mention N.E that's obviously not an excuse to claim that the events are unrelated. You should not rely exclusively on Albanian newspapers, that's the English wikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Agree, the event of the arrest pf Fredi Beleri has essentially nothing to do with the geopolitical concept of Northern Epirus. I will go ahead and remove it until Alexikoua can provide a reason as to how these two subjects are linked. Alltan (talk) 20:52, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Beleri's arrest was reported in multiple international news sources and is very notable. Of course it is related to Northern Epirus. No explanation has been provided as to how it is not related. Until then it should stay. Khirurg (talk) 21:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Khirurg Before writing, it’s important to read and understand the context. While this incident has been covered by various newspapers, it does not pertain to Northern Epirus as a geopolitical entity. Authoritative news outlets such as Associated Press News do not mention NE. That is simply because it is unrelated. Simply stating "of course it is related" is not sufficient. On the other hand, some low-quality Greek newspapers have mentioned NE in a separate section, but without establishing any explicit connection. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 21:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
some low-quality Greek newspaper
? What exactly makes the newspaper "low-quality"? Is it the fact that it's Greek? Besides, Providence, which is not Greek, also mentions Northern Epirus and explicitly connects it. Khirurg (talk) 22:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)- @Khirurg You know what determines the authority of a newspaper, so don't play that card. Instead, can you provide any evidence that the arrest of Bejleri was not a coincidence and that it was due to him supporting Northern Epirus? Even the least reputable of the news outlets would not explicitly make such a claim. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:39, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Khirurg To make things clear: Beleri was arrested for vote-buying and nothing else, which is why it is not relevant to this article. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- How is it not relevant? As one of the sources makes clear, there were 31 cases of alleged vote-buying, yet only Beleris was arrested. It's not a coincidence. Khirurg (talk) 22:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- How is it relevant to this article specifically? Was he arrested because he supported an idea of Northern Epirus? Was he voted in because of the same reason? This is what would make the even fit in the WP:SCOPE of the article. Alltan (talk) 22:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- If you read the sources you removed, you would see how the matter falls within the scope of the article. It's the latest installment in a long history of repression of the Greek minority, and fits within the pattern of the content described in the article. Khirurg (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Instead of "repression", I see a person buying votes in a video. Wait until/if reliable academic sources say sth on the issue. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- And he was not a "Greek minority candidate" because the main party of his coalition was Berisha's party. Beleri's own party won a small fraction of the votes for the municipality council. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:14, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
As one of the sources makes clear, there were 31 cases of alleged vote-buying, yet only Beleris was arrested
Absolutely not true. Several people were arrested for vote buying throughout Albania, and that can be easily sourced. Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:24, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Khirurg
Providence also mentions NE and explicitly connects it.
No, it does not. In all 5 instances, its mention is either a quote from or related to a written letter by Greek Ioannis Lagos to the European Commission. Instead, along the article, the focus is on the "violation" of minority rights in Greece, which is why this incident should be taken to Greeks in Albania or to Albania-Greece relations. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 07:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- If you read the sources you removed, you would see how the matter falls within the scope of the article. It's the latest installment in a long history of repression of the Greek minority, and fits within the pattern of the content described in the article. Khirurg (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- How is it relevant to this article specifically? Was he arrested because he supported an idea of Northern Epirus? Was he voted in because of the same reason? This is what would make the even fit in the WP:SCOPE of the article. Alltan (talk) 22:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- How is it not relevant? As one of the sources makes clear, there were 31 cases of alleged vote-buying, yet only Beleris was arrested. It's not a coincidence. Khirurg (talk) 22:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Khirurg Before writing, it’s important to read and understand the context. While this incident has been covered by various newspapers, it does not pertain to Northern Epirus as a geopolitical entity. Authoritative news outlets such as Associated Press News do not mention NE. That is simply because it is unrelated. Simply stating "of course it is related" is not sufficient. On the other hand, some low-quality Greek newspapers have mentioned NE in a separate section, but without establishing any explicit connection. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 21:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Beleri's arrest was reported in multiple international news sources and is very notable. Of course it is related to Northern Epirus. No explanation has been provided as to how it is not related. Until then it should stay. Khirurg (talk) 21:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Map
Alltan started in March a topic about the infobox map (Talk:Northern Epirus/Archive 12#Infobox map). I didn't have the time then to read about the subject, but it requires a more in-depth discussion. According to Alltan the map (...) refers to claimed numbers of Greeks but it doesn't acknowledge that Albanians live and they make up the majority in most of the "green area"
, but I think that the issue should be discussed differently:
- The map doesn't depict any Greek claims and it doesn't represent Greek historiography as represented in major specialist sources which are used in many articles. It is based on a single map from a source which is not academic, but a newspaper. It is an exampled of WP:UNDUE and cherry-picking.
- Kokolakis, Mihalis (2003). Το ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι: χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυσμός στην τουρκοκρατούμενη Ηπειρο (1820–1913) . Athens: EIE-ΚΝΕ. p. 52. ISBN 960-7916-11-5. summarizes the extent of local Greeks in the vilayet of Janina in the late Ottoman era:
Τα αλβανικά αποτελούσαν την κυρίαρχη ομιλούμενη γλώσσα προς τα βόρεια μιας γραμμής που άρχιζε από την περιοχή των Αγίων Σαράντα, περνούσε δίπλα από τις πόλεις Δέλβινο και Αργυρόκαστρο (ανάμεσα στα χωριά Κολορτσί και Δερβιτσάνη) και φτάνοντας στην Πολίτσανη, όπου και το βορειότερο άκρο της επαρχίας του Πωγωνιού, στρεφόταν προς τα νοτιοανατολικά και ακολουθούσε περίπου την πορεία των σημερινών ελληνοαλβανικών συνόρων53. Τα εδάφη που βρίσκονται νότια απ' αυτή τη γραμμή, δηλαδή το μεγαλύτερο τμήμα της κοιλάδας της Δρόπολης, τα βορινά χωριά του Πωγωνιού, τα περισσότερα χωριά της Ρίζας του Δελβίνου (Δρόβιανη, Μάλτσανη, Δίβρη, Λεσινίτσα) και ο κάμπος του Βούρκου μεταξύ Δελβίνου και Αγίων Σαράντα ορίζουν μέχρι σήμερα την έκταση των ελληνικών μειονοτικών περιοχών στην Αλβανία. (...) α. Ο συμπαγής ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός καταλάμβανε το σύνολο των εδαφών στα νότια και ανατολικά του ελληνοαλβανικού γλωσσικού συνόρου, όπως το περιγράψαμε παραπάνω, με εξαίρεση τις βλαχόφωνες περιοχές της Πίνδου, τους αλβανόφωνους της Τσαμουριάς και κάποιες ακόμη μεμονωμένες γλωσσικές νησίδες (τα αλβανόφωνα χωριά της Δρόπολης Φραστανή και Μουζίνα, τους Τουρκόγυφτους της Βοστίνας56, τους Αρβανιτόβλαχους του Μετζητιέ κ.λπ.). Σε αυτόν περιλαμβάνονταν και οι περισσότεροι από τους αστικούς μουσουλμανικούς και εβραϊκούς πληθυσμούς των Ιωαννίνων, της Αρτας και της Κόνιτσας. β. Ο διεσπαρμένος ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός περιλάμβανε τις ελληνόφωνες νησίδες που βρίσκονταν πέρα από το κυρίως ελληνοαλβανικό γλωσσικό σύνορο, δηλαδή ορισμένα παραλιακά χωριά στην περιοχή της Τσαμουριάς (Σαγιάδα-Μαυρούδι), τρία στη Χειμάρρα (Χειμάρρα-Δρυμάδες-Παλιάσα), δύο στην Αυλώνα (Αρτα και Σβερνέτσι) και μικρό αριθμό οικογενειών στα αστικά κέντρα του Αργυροκάστρου και της Αυλώνας.
This description by Kokolakis is what all relevant sources - including Greek authors like Giakoumis and Kallivretakis - in relevant article discuss except for this one. The map created by Alexikoua overextends the area inhabited by Greeks to areas where no Greeks lived and Greek was never spoken. As such, the point of view advocated by Alexikoua's map doesn't reflect Greek, Albanian or international historiography. I exclusively referred to Kokolakis (2008) without presenting the consensus in Albanian historiography in order to highlight that the consensus in Greek historiography doesn't support Alexikoua's opinions in the slightest. If Alexikoua is willing to change the map according to Kokolakis (2003), then I can wait for a week for him to apply necessary changes to the map. If Alexikoua isn't willing to change the map then I will remove it as this is what is explicitly expected to be done in such cases. If Alexikoua doesn't even respond - as has happened in the past - then it's a WP:SILENT negative response and I will remove the map.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:36, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- Kokolakis, Mihalis (2003). Το ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι: χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυσμός στην τουρκοκρατούμενη Ηπειρο (1820–1913) . Athens: EIE-ΚΝΕ. p. 52. ISBN 960-7916-11-5. summarizes the extent of local Greeks in the vilayet of Janina in the late Ottoman era:
- The map doesn't depict any Greek claims and it doesn't represent Greek historiography as represented in major specialist sources which are used in many articles. It is based on a single map from a source which is not academic, but a newspaper. It is an exampled of WP:UNDUE and cherry-picking.
- The map was created by Future Perfect and it's stated in the maps description, I just made some minor adjustments without changing any borders/regions. I suggest it should be wise you inform the creator. Alexikoua (talk) 03:43, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- My opinion is to change the area to the one based on Le Monte Diplomatique. On the other hand Kokolakis doesn't provide a map on this and creating a map simply being based on partial geographic descriptions isn't the best option and OR is a possibility. Le Monte Dimplatique has provided a solid map on this case.Alexikoua (talk) 04:17, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- The earliest version of the map shows Alexikoua as the creator. Le Monde Diplomatique is not an academic source and anything published by any newspaper doesn't have any WP:WEIGHT when compared to historiographical sources which specialize in the specific subject. I'll remove the map per the consensus in bibliography and I will expand part of the article based on Kokolakis (2003).--
- My opinion is to change the area to the one based on Le Monte Diplomatique. On the other hand Kokolakis doesn't provide a map on this and creating a map simply being based on partial geographic descriptions isn't the best option and OR is a possibility. Le Monte Dimplatique has provided a solid map on this case.Alexikoua (talk) 04:17, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- The map was created by Future Perfect and it's stated in the maps description, I just made some minor adjustments without changing any borders/regions. I suggest it should be wise you inform the creator. Alexikoua (talk) 03:43, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
Maleschreiber (talk) 15:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Maleschreiber: A say it again: this is the original map: ] & creator is Fut. This is also stated that in the later version ]. I usually try to be kind and inform the creators if there are issues with their images. I suggest you should follow that advice.Alexikoua (talk) 00:28, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- A map in the infobox is essential for an article such as this. We can modify the map, or replace it with something like this , with a caption along the lines of "Maximal territorial claim of Northern Epirus" or something similar. I note that similar articles, like Chameria, have a map in the infobox. Khirurg (talk) 23:24, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Btw, here is the original version by @Future Perfect at Sunrise: . Not sure why it's in Spanish though. Khirurg (talk) 23:25, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Le Monde Diplomatique is wp:RS it's actually one of the best modern sources about international relations and diplomacy, nothing wrong on it. We can use the Greek minority border without hesitation.Alexikoua (talk) 00:31, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- The map in the infobox of Chameria is completely different to the map used here; if you'd like to propose something similar, sure, we can see what options there are. Nonetheless, this map is incorrect, misleading and gives the wrong impression in regards to Greeks in Albania. The distribution of Greeks in Albania (which as was previously stated is incorrect and misleading in this map) is also not worthy of inclusion in this article's infobox. We don't have an ethnographic map of the historical distribution of Chams in Chameria for the Chameria article. Botushali (talk) 01:52, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- The map in the infobox of Chameria (that's my creation indeed) also includes areas where Albanians were tiny minorities and its based on a map of Kokolakis, as such it's not OR. On the other hand Kokolakis doesn't offer a map on the Greek speaking population. Kokolakis just provides a partial picture of areas with compact Greek presence of the mid-19th century. Kallivretakis a partial picture of the end of the 20th century. Le Monte Diplomatique is quite helpfull to provide a clear picture on this by providing a map with the areas of Greek presence in s.Albania. The region should include areas where Greeks are also a local minority (Leskovik, Korce, Permet etc) not just the majority ones.Alexikoua (talk) 03:03, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- Btw, here is the original version by @Future Perfect at Sunrise: . Not sure why it's in Spanish though. Khirurg (talk) 23:25, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Khirurg's proposal about a map which depicts just the geographical limits of the concept solves many issues. @Alexikoua: Neither Kokolakis, nor Kallivretakis describe a partial picture. They describe where Greeks/Greek-speakers live(d) from the 19th century to today and where they didn't. This excludes all areas northeast of Biovizhdë, which is a Vlach village, all of Konispol, much of Delvinë, Lukovë and other areas. The map was removed because it depicted all of these areas as inhabited by Greeks/Greek-speakers. As this is not the case, the map was removed. If a realistic map which doesn't contradict many other articles was created, it wouldn't be opposed. One thing which I'm starting to realize by comparing different authors is that differences between authors from Albania and Greece are far fewer than what they're made to be by Alexikoua's edits. There are differences in interpretation - as expected - and these differences generate different POVs, but the gap between the POVs doesn't correspond to narratives which come up here.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:59, 11 July 2023 (UTC)