Talk:Fat acceptance movement: Difference between revisions

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			== Metabolism and obesity ==
	Is there a proper word for fat discrimination? There are plenty of references to 'Stoutism' on the internet if you wish to google the word. As a word of assurance to any militant pc fatties out there who think I'm being facetious I can assure you that I'm no thin thing myself.

			There is little evidence that obesity is related to slower resting metabolism. Resting metabolic rate doesn't vary much between people. Weight gain and loss are directly attributable to diet and activity.<ref>https://examine.com/nutrition/does-metabolism-vary-between-two-people</ref><ref>http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/989.full</ref><ref>https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/expert-answers/slow-metabolism/faq-20058480</ref><ref>http://dailyburn.com/life/health/metabolism-myths-weight-loss/</ref><ref>http://theconversation.com/mondays-medical-myth-my-slow-metabolism-makes-me-fat-4962</ref><ref>https://ijbnpa.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1479-5868-7-19</ref><ref>http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.175.4460&rep=rep1&type=pdf</ref><ref>http://jhppl.dukejournals.org/content/30/5/923.short</ref><ref>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7145476_Eating_habits_beliefs_attitudes_and_knowledge_among_health_professionals_regarding_the_links_between_obesity_nutrition_and_health</ref> ] (]) 19:05, 13 January 2017 (UTC) ({{ping\|EvergreenFir}}
	:Anything we find would probably be a ]. One that I have heard is "sizeism". I personally would stick with phrases like "weight-based discrimination". ] 18:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
			:The content was correct. Would be good to use better sources though. What about this one. https://books.google.ca/books?id=RUQKjpkeLugC&pg=PA180#v=onepage&q&f=false ] (] · ] · ]) 21:48, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
			:::{{re\|Doc James}} I'll trust your judgement here regarding MEDRS. I just know the sources originally given do not abide by it, but if you know of ones that do, that's fine. Not opposed to the content, just the sources. ] ] 22:31, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
			::::{{re\|EvergreenFir}} yes agree with you that the prior sources were poor. The one I linked to is good. So hopefully ] can use that. ] (] · ] · ]) 22:34, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
			:::::Thanks, ]. I'll go ahead and make the edit, if that's okay. Could you tell me which sources are okay, and which aren't? ] (]) 07:02, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
			::::::Maybe include something about how some fat acceptance activists claim genetics, or something called "starvation mode", prevents them from losing weight, or even makes them gain weight, despite maintaining a prolonged calorie deficit, and how that is unsupported by medical science and the laws of thermodynamics. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:58, 30 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:::::::I must fully concur, sir. I lost over two hundred pounds over the course of two years simply by dropping all carbs from my diet. And the weight has stayed off over ten years, now. Weight gain and loss are directly attributable to diet and activity, not some mysterious "slow metabolism" issue. ] (]) 04:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
			:It´s really not that simple. Consensus article from weight conference 2020 with lots of experts in the area https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0803-x ] (]) 20:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
			::I think the best way to cut through this is to simply point out not every country has an obesity rate nearly half its population. America is a country in which non-fat people are a minority. ] (]) 14:47, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

			{{ref talk}}
	::I did a quick search on Web of Science to look which terms are used in articles on this topic. There are (although very few) hits for both, "fatism" and "sizeism", none for "stoutism" (a word that I have never come across before either). There are also hits for fat prejudice (which is, of course, strictly speaking not the same as fat-based discrimination), weight-based discrimination, etc. I personally believe that weight based discrimination is not very accurate because people are not discriminated against due to their weight but due to their perceived body fat - a very muscular person with a high weight is usually not discriminated against based on weight as far as I know. --] 19:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

			== " labor productivity in the coastal areas of the United States" ==
	== Bias ==

			The current state of the article includes a statement that views of fat acceptance affected "labor productivity in the coastal areas of the United States". Is this a documented and widely held belief, that geography was a major factor in people's views? ] (]) 13:59, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
	This article seems biased towards fat people. I suspect that this is because this article is probably written by the overweight.

			== Horseback riding ==
	This assumes that the size of the person writing the article somehow makes a difference. This is a common fallacy, called the Ad Hominem attack.
	:You either misunderstand the nature of the fallacy or the original comment. The size of the person writing the article certainly does make a difference to its probable content. A fat person is more likely to write an article sympathetic to fat people than a thin person is, that is simply human nature. And such, sections of an article sympathetic to fat people are more likely to have been written by fat people. An Ad Hominem Fallacy would be asserting that the article itself is somehow less truthful due to the fact that it was written by a fat person. In reality, whether the article is written by a fat person or a thin person, its value remains constant. --] 09:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	Nonetheless, the "criticism" and "issues with the movement" sections are full of weasel words. ] 15:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
	:First of all: The section is called "issues within the movement". Secondly: Could you please clarify what exactly you mean by "weasel words"? It would be particularly helpful if you could point out specific sentences.--] 23:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
	Here I will do it for you:
	<blockquote>
	Due to intrinsic linguistic misunderstandings and differing definitions of the word "acceptance," some "fat activists" ('''this is a weasel 'word' some evidence or a quote of someone would prove this but instead we only know that an indefinite number or people 'believe' this''') believe the phrase refers to any fat person fighting for equal rights and opportunities, regardless of whether or not that person believes that the pursuit of reduction in a person's body mass is feasible. Other ('''Who? Is there any thing that can link to prove this?''') "fat activists" define "fat acceptance" more strictly, applying that phrase only to fat people who are not pursuing a reduction in their body mass, and use phrases such as "fat activist" to describe fat people and "allies" working more generally on civil rights issues pertaining to fat people.

			I think this is an interesting topic that could be added to the article.
	An additional issue with regard to language is that many in the fat acceptance movement ('''Again, who are these 'many' people''') find the terms "obese" and "overweight" offensive, as they are often used to make overtly prejudiced statements seem more clinical or scientific. The word "fat" is generally preferred.
	</blockquote>
	I dont mind this entry but seriously you cant make assertions without actually providing some evidence as to who is saying what. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:00, August 29, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Okay, if this is meant by "weasel words" than the criticism above is valid. In light of the context (i.e., the previous comment that the article is biased and that this is so because its authors are presumably mainly fat people) I originally interpreted "weasel words" differently...
	:I know this is not good enough, but anybody who hangs around fat acceptance blogs like Big Fat Blog or other fat acceptance websites will have come across discussions of the topics mentioned many times. I don't want to put words in people's mouths, but as far as one of the well known people in the movement are concerned, I am very sure that Paul McAleer from Big Fat Blog is "anti-diet" as well as against the use of the words obesity and overweight. In fact I am not completely sure about all of them, but my impression with the activists mentioned in the article is that they all pretty much share his views in this respective. However, there is a British organization fighting discrimination of fat people who does use the words obese and overweight and who also is pro-diet/ pro intentional weight loss - but I don't remember its name. There are probably similar organizations in the US and in other countries. Actually, since some very prominent people in the movement (like Marilyn Wann) have edited this article in the past they might be able to comment on their views themselves.--] 21:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	::The last paragraph of the "Background" section is particularly non-neutral:
	<blockquote>
	Fat activism faces challenges in addition to bigotry against fat people. Organizations such as the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA) and the International Size Acceptance Association (ISAA) are small in number, and people interested in the movement tend to be clustered in larger cities and spread across medium- to small-sized web communities. NAAFA changed leadership around the turn of the century and has been showing a renewed vitality applauded in the size acceptance community.
	</blockquote>
	::Perhaps a separate section covering the language issue should be added? Fat vs. obese in particular seems like a worthwhile addition. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			What do others here think?
	==Specific Political Stances==
	Given its strong feminist influences, what does the fat acceptance/liberation movement think about issues like anorexia and bulimia? I'd say that they could provide interesting insights into that and related issues.

			https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/pop-culture-news/remi-bader-says-ranch-wouldnt-allow-ride-horses-due-weight-rcna33330
	14.08, 01 September 2007. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/tik-tok-influencer-remi-bader-horse-ranch-incident-weight-even-darker-rcna33991
	== some vandalism ==

			https://people.com/health/tiktok-star-remi-bader-says-ranch-refused-to-let-her-ride-horses-due-to-her-weight/
	''The fat acceptance movement, also the fat liberation movement, is a made-up fairytale effort that you probably haven't heard of anywhere besides on wikipedia. Some fat wiki editor probably made it up.''

			https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/i-only-invited-skinny-friends-31883199
	Would've gone in BJAODN, but I see that's no longer around.—] 08:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
	:BJAODN has been archived at several other sites, and this one is still taking new contributions ] 16:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

			https://www.businessinsider.com/remi-bader-deep-hollow-ranch-denied-horse-ride-because-weight-2022-6
	::Kind of mean but funny and honestly a movement glorifying people who like sitting all day and spooning lard into their mouth more than exercising or anything else that involves physical exertion until eventually they shun independence and become too obese to move and demand that everyone around them suffer through the inconvenience of bringing them potato sacks full of big macs as they slowly kill themselves is going to get some mocking. Im not vandalizing here, but seriously, thats what fat acceptance is, and deleting this only proves im right and you're too fat to find a counterargument that shows that this movement is anything other than a cruel mockery of civil rights. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:::Since you obviously will live in the belief that fatties like me live in denial and are not willing to face the truth if I delete your comment I won't do it - however, I do not see how your comment does in any way help to further improve the article. However, your argument is one that is often used to criticize the movement, so maybe you might want to add it to the criticism section - but do me a favor and do some proper research if you do so, since there is plenty of research that shows that a) fat people, including fat children, are indeed discriminated against and b) weight-loss attempts fail in the overwhelming majority of cases. Also, there are in fact fat fitness trainers such as Kelly Bliss and Jennifer Portnick - so much for the argument that we fatties all just sit on our fat behinds and never do anything that somehow resembles physical exercise. --] (]) (a fat, belly-dancing vegetarian who doesn't own a car and walks/bikes several miles each day to get around)

			https://jenniferrpovey.medium.com/fat-shaming-versus-animal-welfare-the-debate-about-larger-equestrians-ca1874fea168
	::::What I said was never meant to be an attack on the obese, but if you're 600 pounds and fighting to be "accepted" for how "beautiful" it is to cram baconators down your throat and be insanely unhealthy, you need to look in the mirror and take an objective look at the "rights" you're fighting for. A vegetarian who walks/bikes several miles away is most likely a healthy individual regardless of their weight, so therefore you are not someone I'd refer to as a fatty. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:::::You speak the truth. Fat people should be ashamed of themselves. ] (]) 10:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

			] (]) 02:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
	==Sizism==
	Should this realy be redirected from Sizism? I mean Sizism can ALSO mean being against Anorexics/Near Anorexics aswell. ] (] • ]) 17:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

			I just added the following:
	==Deletion==
	I'm going to put this up for deletion. There are few sources, lots of original research, and no mention of the name "Fat acceptance movement." Any thoughts from other editors? --] (]) 16:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
	:Completely disagree. Please don't create wholesale redirects without discussing. --<font color="#0000C0">David</font> ''']''' 17:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
	::I didn't make any redirect. Anyway, I'm tagging this for notability and will work on citations. There seems to be some possibilty of proof for this with the large amount of google hits, but until it's improved this article is definitely lacking. --] (]) 18:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
	:::That is an improper tag. I realize you are new, but please do not add tags that do not belong. This is an article about a well-known concept, with well known activists (who are also documented on Misplaced Pages) and there is more than enough Google hits and "further reading" and citation to show notability. This article goes back to 2002. Please edit more carefully. Thank you. --<font color="#0000C0">David</font> ''']''' 18:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
	::::Well it is probably very well-known and has plenty of sources, but the article as it stands now provides no reliable third-party source that has coverage of the movement or any of the definitions presented. Please help other editors find the appropriate sources to cite all of the claims. --] (]) 21:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
	:::::That's fine, but you should ditch now the thinking, "I know nothing about this article and it could use citations, so I will see if it should be deleted." You will win few friends on WP this way. There are many uncited articles, and citations are required for '''controversial''' statements and not every statement needs to be cited. ]. --<font color="#0000C0">David</font> ''']''' 21:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
	::::::See below --] (]) 22:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

			On the subject of ], there has been disagreement between fat acceptance activists and ] activists.<ref>, Medium, April 22, 2022</ref><ref>, NBC News, June 13, 2022</ref><ref>, NBC News, June 17, 2022</ref><ref>, People, June 14, 2022</ref><ref>, Mirror, Janaury 15, 2024</ref><ref>, Business Insider, June 16, 2022</ref>
	=== Notability and references ===
	Per a discussion with Banime on my talk page, I agree that it was inappropriate for Banime to weigh in advocating deletion. (Coming so soon after the ] which Baime wrote, I question the good faith).

			] (]) 21:50, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
	However, Banime is right that more citations are needed, so I have added some {{tl\|fact}} tags and a {{tl\|notability}} tag ... because while the article references individual activists and a few publications advocating fat acceptance, it offers no evidence that there is a fat acceptance ''movement''. I think it's likely that there is such such a movement, but the article, but the article offers no evidence for that.
			: {{ping\|The Last Hungry Cat}} I've seen worse edits from newcomers, but I'd encourage you to read about what Misplaced Pages considers to be a ]. Basically, NBC is fine, blogs like Medium are not. Ideally, you want something like academic scholarship with peer review. ] ] 22:55, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

			::The incident cited seems to be about a complaint of rudeness at an equestrian business. The conflict between the capacity of horses and the weight of potential riders is not an issue of "shaming". Is this incident worth including? The article should not become simply a listing of people who felt shamed about being fat. ] (]) 00:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
	I'll clarify what I mean by that. The {{tl\|fact}} tags in the lead section identify the points which need referencing to establish the notability of the concept. At the moment, the article identifies advocates and some literature, but that alone is not a "movement". It would be quite possible to look at various issues in society, identify some activism and find some literature making similar points, and then attach the label "movement" to them. However, on its own that amounts to a ], a form of ] which consists of collating info from dift sources and formulating from those sources a conclusion which is not directly supported by any of the individual sources.
			:::You may be right. Let's hear what other people think. I'll go with whatever the consensus is. ] (]) 01:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

			::Thank you. Academic scholarship with peer review is probably a bit beyond what I usually read. NBC and other major news sources are more my type of thing. I won't cite Medium again, but it does also fall withinin my normal range of reading. ] (]) 01:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
	An article on "fat acceptance" could quite reasonably identify activists and literature without needing to provide evidence that they are part pf a wider movement. However, this article explicitly makes the claim that that fat acceptance is a movement (rather than just the stance of a few individuals), but offers no evidence for that claim.

	I suspect that such evidence probably does exist, but as it stands the article offers no evidence for the ] of a movement. The {{tl\|notability}} tag should remain until references are provided to ] which demonstrate that "fat acceptance" is notable as a ''movement'' of the form described in the article's lead section, rather than as a series of isolated phenomena on a similar theme. --] <small>] • (])</small> 18:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
	:Thanks for all the clarification and help. I'm sure you can work to fix the article David Shankbone, it seems very well known but on the article itself there were only four unrelated sources to a fat acceptance movement, which is why I brought it up in the first place. I was wrong to advocate deletion right away, but, in my defense, if it was not in good faith at least I would have just done it without asking anyone first (this board and BrownHairedGirl, a more experienced editor than I) --] (]) 20:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

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Metabolism and obesity

There is little evidence that obesity is related to slower resting metabolism. Resting metabolic rate doesn't vary much between people. Weight gain and loss are directly attributable to diet and activity. Benjamin (talk) 19:05, 13 January 2017 (UTC) (@EvergreenFir:

The content was correct. Would be good to use better sources though. What about this one. https://books.google.ca/books?id=RUQKjpkeLugC&pg=PA180#v=onepage&q&f=false Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:48, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

@Doc James: I'll trust your judgement here regarding MEDRS. I just know the sources originally given do not abide by it, but if you know of ones that do, that's fine. Not opposed to the content, just the sources. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:31, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: yes agree with you that the prior sources were poor. The one I linked to is good. So hopefully User:Benjaminikuta can use that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:34, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, user:Doc James. I'll go ahead and make the edit, if that's okay. Could you tell me which sources are okay, and which aren't? Benjamin (talk) 07:02, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Maybe include something about how some fat acceptance activists claim genetics, or something called "starvation mode", prevents them from losing weight, or even makes them gain weight, despite maintaining a prolonged calorie deficit, and how that is unsupported by medical science and the laws of thermodynamics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.223.45.126 (talk) 15:58, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

I must fully concur, sir. I lost over two hundred pounds over the course of two years simply by dropping all carbs from my diet. And the weight has stayed off over ten years, now. Weight gain and loss are directly attributable to diet and activity, not some mysterious "slow metabolism" issue. 174.28.35.236 (talk) 04:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

It´s really not that simple. Consensus article from weight conference 2020 with lots of experts in the area https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0803-x Plutten4ever (talk) 20:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I think the best way to cut through this is to simply point out not every country has an obesity rate nearly half its population. America is a country in which non-fat people are a minority. 158.140.180.10 (talk) 14:47, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

References

" labor productivity in the coastal areas of the United States"

The current state of the article includes a statement that views of fat acceptance affected "labor productivity in the coastal areas of the United States". Is this a documented and widely held belief, that geography was a major factor in people's views? Pete unseth (talk) 13:59, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Horseback riding

I think this is an interesting topic that could be added to the article.

What do others here think?

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/pop-culture-news/remi-bader-says-ranch-wouldnt-allow-ride-horses-due-weight-rcna33330

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/tik-tok-influencer-remi-bader-horse-ranch-incident-weight-even-darker-rcna33991

https://people.com/health/tiktok-star-remi-bader-says-ranch-refused-to-let-her-ride-horses-due-to-her-weight/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/i-only-invited-skinny-friends-31883199

https://www.businessinsider.com/remi-bader-deep-hollow-ranch-denied-horse-ride-because-weight-2022-6

https://jenniferrpovey.medium.com/fat-shaming-versus-animal-welfare-the-debate-about-larger-equestrians-ca1874fea168

The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 02:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I just added the following:

On the subject of horseback riding, there has been disagreement between fat acceptance activists and animal rights activists.

The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 21:50, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@The Last Hungry Cat: I've seen worse edits from newcomers, but I'd encourage you to read about what Misplaced Pages considers to be a reliable source. Basically, NBC is fine, blogs like Medium are not. Ideally, you want something like academic scholarship with peer review. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:55, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

The incident cited seems to be about a complaint of rudeness at an equestrian business. The conflict between the capacity of horses and the weight of potential riders is not an issue of "shaming". Is this incident worth including? The article should not become simply a listing of people who felt shamed about being fat. Pete unseth (talk) 00:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

You may be right. Let's hear what other people think. I'll go with whatever the consensus is. The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 01:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Academic scholarship with peer review is probably a bit beyond what I usually read. NBC and other major news sources are more my type of thing. I won't cite Medium again, but it does also fall withinin my normal range of reading. The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 01:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Fat Shaming versus Animal Welfare — the Debate About Larger Equestrians, Medium, April 22, 2022
TikTok star Remi Bader says she was mocked for her weight after being turned away from horse ranch, NBC News, June 13, 2022
Tik-Tok star Remi Bader’s horse ranch incident has an even darker side, NBC News, June 17, 2022
TikTok Star Remi Bader Says Ranch Mistreated Her and Refused to Let Her Ride Horses Due to Her Weight, People, June 14, 2022
'I didn't invite heavy friends to horse riding - their weight is their problem', Mirror, Janaury 15, 2024
An influencer called out a horse-riding business on TikTok. Its employee told her to come back when she wasn't 'fat.', Business Insider, June 16, 2022

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