| Revision as of 14:54, 19 July 2005 editChronographos (talk | contribs)1,458 edits →Question for Bratsche← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 22:40, 17 November 2024 edit undo2a02:214a:801a:5100:cf74:63ab:af2b:df72 (talk) →Turkish language is not spoken in Albania: Albanian new mix languageTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit | ||
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| Igor, all I am saying is mention the source. I am not defending the current stats. You say the source is official, then just go ahead an mention it -- what's the problem??? ] 00:46, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
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| == Religion of Albanians == | |||
| Remove the "Predominately" and "Minority" terms, because it's a very big mistake. Albanians have the largest religious deversity in Europe. ] (]) 07:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ------------ | |||
| :@] I agree with that too, also Muslims dont make 70 or 80% of Albania, only 60% and the Orthodox are the majority of Albanian Christians. ] (]) 11:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Dori I did, before you erased it... | |||
| == Turkish language is not spoken in Albania == | |||
| http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Albanians&diff=0&oldid=1286838 | |||
| Turkish language spoken in Albania, albanians new mix language. ] (]) 20:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Regards | |||
| == Remove Turkish language because it’s wrong == | |||
| ] | |||
| Turkish language is not spoken in Albania ] (]) 20:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| : I meant an external link. You didn't memorize the data did you? You must have looked it up somewhere. I could make up a source like that too, but I'd rather not. ] 00:59, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| == Religion == | |||
| ---- | |||
| There are some things that must be changed in this article:<br> | |||
| I suggest you both have a quick read of ]. If one source says 500,000 and another says 150,000, you don't have an edit war where each editor asserts a single figure, you write "one source says 500,000 and another says 150,000", then you both agree that that's a pretty accurate assessment and do some sort of virtual handshake, and then get on with doing more useful things. That's what NPOV is all about. -- ] 03:44, Aug 19, 2003 (UTC) | |||
| 1)Remove the terms Majority and Minority in the Religion section of the introduction, despite the differencrs in the percentages they are treated equally and in Christianity part, put Orthodoxy in the beggining, because there are less Albanian Catholics than Albanian Orthodox.<br> | |||
| 2)Remove the table of religions towards the end of the article, mos of the datas are completely wrong. ] (]) 11:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm fine with that. ] 12:26, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| :I oppose the table to be removed. The numbers in it are backed by sources. Misplaced Pages is based on a sources, not on personal opinions. ] (]) 12:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] I agree ] (]) 12:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| P.S., please don't be intimidated: Dori and Igor are clearly the two experts on Albania here, not me. Edit what I've just done mercilessly, just try to write from a neutral point of view. -- ] | |||
| ---- | |||
| There are two articles about Albanians: "Ethnic Albanian" and "Albanians". This article is about ethnic Albanians inside and outside of Albania. The article ] seems to suggest that there are ethnic Albanians only outside of Albania. I think this is wrong. The term "Albanians" is ambiguous between citizens of Albania (who may happen to be, e.g., ethnic Greeks) and ethnic Albanians, and this is the reason why "ethnic" is added. My proposal is merging the two articles. ] 07:24, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| : OK, I think I added that page before I knew about this one (when I first discovered wikipedia). Merging the two is not a bad idea, and it might avoid some confusion. --] 22:03, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| Dori, the census results I am using is from the official Yugoslav census data, I have it all on one CD, I will try and find it on the net in the meantime, you can check any book which mentions the 1981 and 1991 censa, the data are the same all over. | |||
| : Well finally you mention the magical source. Why are you opposed to citing it in the articles? ] 22:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| PS, the preliminary 2001 Albania census results mention 3,087,159 people in the whole of Albania, that, naturally includes minorities as well, I rounded it off at about 3 million Albanians although depending on the source (CIA world factbook or Bethany) the percentage of ethnic Albanians is anywhere between 92 and 95% Albanian so that means anywhere between 2,830,000 and 2,930,000 ethnic Albanians in Albania although some Greeks would put at an even lower figure... | |||
| ], 22:50, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| : So why don't you explaing the reasoning. You can say that this is the estimate from this census based off of the estimated percentage of minorities. As I've said, if we are to use numbers at random, I'd rather use mine. ] 22:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| I found a recent Russian encyclopedic data | |||
| http://dic.academic.ru/misc/enc1p.nsf/ByID/NT0000102E | |||
| citing numbers we don't have in this article. The number of ethnic Albanians is stated to be 115,000 in the United States, 5,000 in Canada and 15,000 in Turkey. The year and the source are not mentioned. ] 23:25, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| I think this article could contain a survey of the ethnological groups of the Albanians. I mean G(h)egs and Tosks, and the "old" emigrants. And if this information is available, about tribes. (Just a desideratum.) ] 08:17, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| ==Albanians in Greece== | |||
| This issue seems to be sparking an edit war. I wish to ask the involved editors (], ], and ]) to disuss the matter here instead of continually reverting the article. I am protecting the aritcle now while this discussion follows. ]<sup>] ]</sup> 15:50, July 18, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks, Bratsche, for some common sense. I'll be happy to participate if that's alright with you ] 16:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :I think it's a wonderful idea, Bratsche.--] 16:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Theatheane I wonder why you have put the quotation mark on the Chams and why you only include the Muslim Albanians and leave beside the Cham Christian Albanians. You also say that the Aromanians/Vlach in Albania identifying themself as Greeks, that's crazy. | |||
| ::: The Greeks do indeed claim the Aromanians/Vlachs of Albania as Greeks, but I'd like a reference about their self-identification. ] | ] 16:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Most Arvanitovlachs have moved to Greece since the fall of the Hoxha régime, and have claimed Greek nationality on the basis of their identification with the Greeks. It's more a case of finding a reference for their ''non''-self-identification as Greeks, if you can.--] 17:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I am not famliar with the relevant statistics, but it seems to me that almost one million Albanian citizens now live in Greece. About half of them are illegal aliens and potentially subject to deportation anytime, while the rest have been given "Green Cards" allowing them to live and work in Greece. If these numbers are true, they mean that a '''staggering one quarter''' of the population of ] earn their livelihood in Greece. Theathenae, do you know if the Greek state differentiates between ethnic Greek and ethnic Albanian immigrants? ] 17:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Of course it does. There have been hordes of Albanian nationals clamouring to claim Greek citizenship on the basis of ''not'' being ethnically Albanian. Of course, these include ethnic Albanians who baptise themselves Northern ] in order to gain favourable treatment in Greece.--] 17:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Bratsche I request you review the article to last change by me since Theatheane is cleary spreading Greek propaganda. ] 16:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Albanau, your English is not exactly conducive to clarity of meaning. This is no way to conduct a fruitful conversation. Do try to pose '''one question at a time''', taking care that it is phrased '''clearly and succinctly''', so that people may understand what you are saying and are able to respond in a meaningful fashion. ] 17:01, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hey Bratsche! | |||
| :Allow me to quote Stephanie Schwander-Sievers, book: Albanian Identities: Myth and History, page 16. '''....Southern Albanian Aromanian (for 'Vlach') communities which, with political transition, have won rights as a special 'cultural group'. However, during my fieldwork with them in 1996 I found many who explicitly wished to identify with their Albanian nationality'''... --] 17:18, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't know who Ms. Sievers is, but I believe Theathenae referred to people who moved to Greece and requested Greek passports '''after''' 1996. ] 17:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :*''Albanian nationals, including many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians or Arvanitovlachs in addition to ethnic Albanians, that arrived especially during the 1990s, mostly as illegal immigrants; as many as 500,000, according to the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs.'' | |||
| :According to the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs it say that 500,000 are ethnic Albanians immigrants and does not include ethnic Greeks, and, how Theathenae put it ''Greek-identifying.Aromanians''. ] 17:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Are you sure the Greek MFA refers to ''all'' Albanians and not just the ones it gave Green Cards to? I live in Greece and I know that most illegal aliens enter the country in secret and are often deported, only to reenter secretly. Indeed they often ''use'' deportation as a way to cut their fares in half! I don't see how the Greek MFA can keep accurate records on these people. If they could, they wouldn't let them in in the first place. ] 17:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Read according to the Greek MFA is not near what Theathenae claimed in the article. ] 17:38, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::You don't frankly expect me to read a ... '''Master of Arts dissertation''' (!!!) written 3 years ago, do you? What is this, a high-school essay competition? At my age, I have no time for undergraduate drivel. You must do better next time, young man! ] 17:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Now your babbling like a crazy man cause you have been crack in this debate. ] 17:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Your kind words are warmly appreciated ] 17:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Albanó, if you'd bothered to read the paragraph you cite, you would know that "Albanians" here refers to Albanian citizens in general, not just ethnic Albanians: "The first wave that crossed the country were mainly political immigrants, when the Greek state opened the Greek-Albanian borders to help the reunification of the Greek minority members living in Albania with their relatives in Greece in 1987. Many of these ethnic Greeks settled in Greece in the beginning of the 90’s and obtained Greek nationality. Afterwards, the majority of Albanians who came were ethnic Albanians and was characterized as economic migrants."--] 17:48, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: Here's the exact quote: | |||
| ::''"Albanians are the most prominent group of '''illegal immigrants''' in Greece nowadays, estimated around 150,000 by Petrinioti and as much as '''500,000 by the Greek ministry of Foreign Affairs .'''"'' ] | ] 18:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Vlachs in Albania, majority wise, dont see themselves as Greek. There is a pro-Greek faction, but that is a minority along with the pro-Romanian faction. Both are politically and economically motivated and mostly not by actual cultural ties. Vlach Papa Lambru Balamaci of Korce certainly did not think he was Greek when Greeks tied him to a tree and shot him dead for blame over the fact that Northern Epirus was going to Albania. I suggest people read along with and . You will find many of your questions answered. Most Vlachs today, including my father, have been fully assimilated into Albanian society and while many are begining to recognize their vlach roots(including I), they do not forget the fact that they are Albanians. Many have intermarried into Albanian families and Albania has had many prominent Vlachs helping it in its history. As for going to Greece and signing yourself as Greek? I suggest people read . Which states; | |||
| ''"'''There are even cases where Albanian citizens apply for a migrant’s “green card ” but the state''''' '''''refuses it claiming that they are members of the Greek minority in Albania for which a special,''''' '''''preferential procedure applies, even though the applicant makes no such claim.''' To benefit for that'' ''procedure, the applicant will have to go back to Albania, get a new visa and reapply'''', a difficult and uncertain procedure."'' | |||
| ] 18:03, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :User:Tpilkati, whose profile is non-existent, this is as relevant as African-American slavery before the time of ]. What exactly ''are'' you trying to say? ] 18:16, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is relevant due to the fact that Theathenae stated these people are going to Greece and applying as Greeks, when in many occasions this is not so. This pushes the number of Vorio Epirotes higher and ths makes the illusion that there is a high number of minorities in Albania... | |||
| :::Perhaps most of the ''few'' Vlachs who ''did'' stay in Albania do identify as Albanians, but that says nothing about the community as a whole. As for your second point, are you denying that Albanians have been applying for Greek citizenship?--] 19:25, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| These Vlachs who left, left for the same reason as Albanians or Greeks. They left for better for a better life. Those who claim they are Greeks do so in order to receive scholarships and even money from the Greek government. Many of them have stated their desire to return to Albania at one point or another. Please athenae, read my articles, written by a Vlach-American. | |||
| excerp from the article; | |||
| ''Spiru had earned money working in Greece and his household had an air of prosperity.'' ''Greek visas are worth thousands of dollars in Albania, so great is the need for employment that will earn'' '''hard currency. Greece has taken to offering visas to the Vlachs of Albania, who have only to''' ''accept the designation "Northern Epirote." This is a brilliant move on the part of the'' ''Greeks; they could strengthen the Greek minority if they could count the Vlachs as Greeks, and what'' ''better way to do so than to reward people with a visa? Spiru is one of a growing number of Vlachs who have taken advantage of this offer.'''' He recognizes that by calling himself something other than Ruman (or Aruman) -- the self-designation of the Vlachs -- he has become an instrument'' ''of Greek foreign policy. But he has a family to support; and Greece is a nice place to live and to'' ''work; and when'' ''he's done, he'll return to his family and household in Albania; and anyway, he knows what he is,'' no'' ''matter what his Greek identification card may say; and so you can move one more Vlach from Column A (Vlach or Albanian) to Column B (Greek). This is the way things go in the Balkans.'' | |||
| Am I denying Albanians going for Greek citizenship? No way, most there, the way I view them, would get ready to do the most obsene things for it. This does not change the fact that Greek purposely pushes them into declaring themselves as Epirotes, in order to raise the number of minority in Greece. ] 19:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hmmmmm, Greek visas sold for "thousands of dollars" (or euros, which would be 20% higher)? I guess the authorities need to know about this! And that there are people ready to sell their soul and identity so that they can sweep the streets. ] were right on the , er, '''money''' ("Money, so they say, is the root of all evil today ...."). Well, I have three words for you, Mr. Mystery Man Tpilkati: '''Capitalism is tough'''. Get used to it. ] 19:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Articles written by a Vlach-American contain the opinions of a Vlach-American. They are not representative of the Vlachs in general.--] 19:40, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Athenae, , is a widely known and prominent organization on Vlachs and their diaspora. Considering the vlach who wrote the article was attending a vlachs in Albania event it is trully a neutral and objective article. Chrono, have to complement you, quite a taste for music you have, lol. ] 19:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you, my friend, although I prefer the ]-era ]. Now is "farsarotul" a ]? ] 20:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: This is the first time I am hearing of the ]. ] 20:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::So I thought, dear, so I thought .... ] 20:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It's ''Theathenae''. One word. Nothing to do with ]. As for farsarotul.org, it is a widely known pro-Rumanian organisation; it is not representative of all or even most Vlachs. I don't think the Vlachs who identify as Greeks would appreciate your condescension. Let them decide for themselves what they are and are not.--] 20:17, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::You said, he said, she said ... Official numbers will be required, and this goes for Theathenae, me, you, or God in Heaven ] 18:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| And yes I dont have a profile, because I am relatively new and still havnt gotten used to the site,although I dont know how this should effect, negatively, my post, | |||
| ] 18:24, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :It would help in that it would go ''some way'' towards establishing that you are '''not''' a sockpuppet. ] 18:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ------ | |||
| Cleary what Theathenae have done here is disorting the facts. User Bratsche do you agree? --] 18:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Cleary''' (''sic'') you need to bring up some facts yourself ] 18:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Cleary what Theathenae have done is disorting the facts, just look above and you will see. And please stop babbling! ] 18:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'll cut a "cleary" deal with you: I'll agree with ''whatever'' you say, so long as you never talk to me again unless you call my secretary and make an appointment first. Fair enough? ] 19:13, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| '''Please, all read ]. This is not the place for personal slander, nor childish bickering.''' A nice, civil discussion is in order. This is to determine a consensus for the facts of this matter. As the article may stand, we all should also remember the policies of a ]. Both sides of the argument may need to be represented in the article. | |||
| I would also like to note that I am neither a referee or a moderator. I am simply another editor who is allowed tp use certain functions on Misplaced Pages. Anyone can join this discussion, user page or not. My comments at the top were to notify those who were participating in the edit war. Now let us continue in a calm manner. ]<sup>] ]</sup> 20:00, July 18, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :But, Bratsche, ] started it! :-)))))))))))) ] 20:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ===According to the International Organization of Labor=== | |||
| If this disagreement is still about the number of Albanians in Greece, It's 438,000 Albanians in Greece as of 2000. | |||
| Also found an interesting article from | |||
| :The total number of immigrants, both legal and illegal, in Greece is thought to be between 400,000 and two million, an estimated 10% to 20% of the Greek work force. | |||
| and | |||
| :In the collective social consciousness crime is closely connected with immigrants, particularly those from Albania. Researchers agree that the percentage of crime for which the Albanians are responsible, compared to the rest of the immigrant population in Greece, was only 4.5%, and was thus directly proportional to their numbers and, therefore, not exceptionally high. | |||
| 4.5% of 11,000,000 would put it at 495,000. | |||
| ] 23:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::All of which is fine and dandy, unknown-user-Acerimusdux (there seem to be "many" like you around lately, huh?) except (1) it is outdated information and (2) it sounds way off topic to me. I would be happy to contribute current numbers and information, but I'm not sure anyone is interested. Should the subject of this discussion change to "Greek policy towards migrants", then it would be relevant. Of course there are some ''prima facie'' errors in your statements: the 400,000-2,000,000 figure and the corresponding "percentage of the Greek workforce" are a ''contradictio in terminis'' as the former has a 1:5 spread and the latter a 1:2 spread. Therefore, in addition to getting a user page of your own ("Tpilkati" might help you there, '''hint, hint'''), you need to work on your math skills. ] 00:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC) (to put it plainly: no ], no ]) | |||
| :::Chrono, is a user page info that important to you? Because Im rather lazy actually and never really felt like putting a personality on my account. I dont really see it as necessary, I make a post and bring the evidence I feel supports my view and thats it. Does putting a picture me there help so much?] 00:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No problem, '''Tpilkati''', I'm sure '''Acerimusdux''' agrees with you 100% ] 01:01, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I cant help but think that you believe me and Ace are the same character. I assure you we are not. ] 02:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::] appears to be ] on Misplaced Pages.--] 08:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Not to mention ]. Or ''trois''. Or ''quattre''. Or ... ] 09:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :It's so typical and pathetic of you two, Theathenae and Chronographos, don't try to escape from Acerimusdux valid arguments. If you think that he is the same person as Tpilkati bring up some real evidence insteed of speculating all the time. We don't accept hypothetical evidence. A real evidence must be valid and not vague for us to accept, so far you have not bring up any real evidence only hypothetical ones. | |||
| :About the number of Albanians in Greece I'm still awaiting to hear from you Theathenae. The Greek MFA say they are 500, 000 Albanians in Greece but you claim that some of them are Greeks and Greek-identified Vlachs from Albania, thats very much incongruous. ] 11:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: with what? ] 11:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Illegal Albanians immigrants are estimated as much as 500,000 by the Greek ministry of Foreign Affairs. Theathenae said that this also includes many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians which made it all very incongruous. Clearly Theathenae have disorted the facts by the Greek MFA. --] 11:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::See how right I was when criticising your English? Your reading comprehension is not that much better than your writing, unfortunately. Theathenae could not have said (and did not say) that, because ''by definition'' an Albanian citizen seeking "ethnic Greek" status from the MFA cannot be an ''illegal alien''. An illegal alien ''hides'' from the authorities for fear of deportation. If anything is "very incongruous", it's your statements. ] 14:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Chrono: It is unfortunate that you think that no one would be interested in any current numbers and information you have to provide, but nonetheless believe that we are all interested in your insults and abuse, which is what you seem to be contributing to this discussion instead. So far on this page, you have criticized one poster's English (on a topic in which it is quite obvious that many non-native English speakers will have quite a bit to contribute), condescendingly in another response referred to the poster as "young man", criticized another poster for not having a user page, condescendingly referred to that poster as "dear" in another response, picked on a typographical error in another post, and then in a followup told that poster to "never talk to me again". And all that before starting in with me. Did you think that the request for civility above didn't apply to you? | |||
| ::::As for the creation of a user page, apparently this act doesn't help to teach one manners, or aid one in making productive contributions. I'm sure the opportunities for self promotion inherent in a page dedicated to oneself would appeal to the more vainglorious and self centered; but from the evidence I've seen thus far here, for now I'm content to count myself amongst those users without one. | |||
| ::::As for the ILO, it is an agency of the United Nations, a reasonably official source. Moreover, if you looked at the page linked, you would have seen it clearly stated that the original source of the data is the National Statistical Service of Greece, which is the Greek governmental organization which the "Ministry of Foreign Affairs" would rely on. As a primary source, and a more authoritative one, it would probably make a better citation than the current article, even if it essentially confirms the number already there. And, when CER refers to the "total number of immigrants" I believe they are likely referring to the '''total number of immigrants'''; not just those in the workforce. And while peer-reviewed journals are good for some things, I doubt you're going to find many academics who are doing a better job of counting people in Greece than the Greek Census. If you want to search through them for information on the number of Albanians in Greece, the self-identification of the Arvanites or Aromanians, or evidence that Cham Albanians are all Muslim, be my guest, and provide the source. In the meantime, I happen to think exploring such online sources as the United Nations, the U.S. Government, and prominent international NGO's might be helpful. | |||
| ::::Last, if you're "too old" to bother to read links others provide, you ought to be also too mature to comment on them with the kind of sophmoric abuse that makes this look more like a ] message board rather than a Misplaced Pages talk page. ] 11:49, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And you ''question'' is??? ] 11:58, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ===A couple more interesting links === | |||
| :Between July 2003 and October 2004, 700,000 residence permits were issued with 509,000 permits in force in January 2004, which fell to 250,000 permits in September 2004, the survey showed. The highest percentage of immigrants with residence permits were Albanians at 63.2%, followed by Bulgarians (9.8%), Romanians (4.3%), Ukrainians (3.4%), Pakistanis (2.4%), and Georgians (2.2%). | |||
| From the 2003 report on Europe and Asia 92839EU.pdf, the section on Greece, pg. 244: | |||
| :National/Racial/Ethnic Minorities.--Anti-foreigner sentiment existed and was directed mainly at Albanians, who made up approximately 5 percent of the population. Approximately 500,000 of the estimated 1 million aliens in the country were Albanians. While Albanian legal residents encountered less official discrimination than Albanians residing in the country illegally, Albanian immigrants faced widespread societal discrimination. | |||
| : '''A number of citizens identified themselves as Turks, Pomaks, Vlachs, Roma, Arvanites (Orthodox Christians who speak a dialect of Albanian), or "Macedonians" or "Slavomacedonians."''' The Government formally recognizes only the "Muslim minority" (see Section 2.c.), and does not officially acknowledge the existence of any ethnic groups, principally Slavophones, under the term "minority." However, the Government has affirmed an individual right of self-identification. '''As a result, some individuals who defined themselves as members of a minority found it difficult to express their identity freely and to maintain their culture.''' Use of the terms "Tourkos" and "Tourkikos" ("Turk" and "Turkish") is prohibited in titles of organizations, although individuals legally may call themselves "Tourkos." To most Greeks, the words "Tourkos" and "Tourkikos" connote Turkish identity or loyalties, and many object to their use by Greek citizens of Turkish origin. At year's end, an appeal from the "Turkish Union of Xanthi" and a petition for the establishment of a "Turkish Women's Union" were pending in court. | |||
| It seems to me that the 500,000 figure is generally accepted in the absence of other evidence, but that the description of Arvanites as "Orthodox Christians who speak a dialect of Albanian" may be better supported than the current article version. But I need a few more sources to be sure. | |||
| ] 12:31, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hey Acerimusdux! Here, from Encyclopædia Britannica, The Albanians in Greece. | |||
| ''The origins of the Albanians (Albanoi/Arvanitai in Greek) remain uncertain. They appear to be the descendants of the Illyrian populations who withdrew into the highlands of the central Dinaric chain. Their name may originate from the valley of the Arbanon (along the Shkumbi River) in the theme of Dyrrachion (Durrës/Durazzo), in which they were first noted by outside commentators. Their language probably evolved from ancient Illyrian (formerly classed with the Hellenic group of Indo-European languages but now generally recognized as an independent member of the latter family), but it is heavily influenced by Greek, Slavic, and Turkish, as well as medieval Italian. For reasons not yet fully understood, the Albanians began in the 14th century to advance into the western coastal plain, where they served both Byzantine and Serbian overlords as well as ruling independently under various warlords and chiefly families; they were also present in considerable numbers in Thessaly, Boeotia, Attica, and the Peloponnese, serving as soldiers and as farmers, colonizing deserted lands. Albanians arrived in large numbers in the Peloponnese during the reign of the despotes Manuel Kantakouzenos, who brought them there to serve as soldiers and to resettle depopulated regions. The impact of their presence on the region's existing ethnic and linguistic structure remains debated.'' ] 12:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you want to discuss "Greek Policy Towards Migrants", I'l be ''more than happy'' to engage you. But first it has to be established that the issue is within the scope to the ] article. ] 14:32, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Greek Helsinki report == | |||
| http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html: | |||
| "Arvanites are those whose mother tongue is Arvanitika (name in Greek - Αρβανίτες)/ Arberichte (name in their language); most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use, and it is therefore advisable that this sensitivity be taken into consideration unless researchers and/or human and minority rights activists do not mind alienating the very community they are studying. Likewise, they call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arberor (in their language); but in Northwestern Greece, in their language, they use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians."--] 13:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Question for Bratsche== | |||
| If this discussion is to lead anywhere, you will have to formulate the '''specific''', individual questions that need to be answered. ] 14:32, 19 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 22:40, 17 November 2024
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Religion of Albanians
Remove the "Predominately" and "Minority" terms, because it's a very big mistake. Albanians have the largest religious deversity in Europe. 188.172.111.231 (talk) 07:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- @188.172.111.231 I agree with that too, also Muslims dont make 70 or 80% of Albania, only 60% and the Orthodox are the majority of Albanian Christians. DenisBendaj08 (talk) 11:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Turkish language is not spoken in Albania
Turkish language spoken in Albania, albanians new mix language. 2001:2043:BC01:CB00:A4E9:1184:A30E:4112 (talk) 20:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Remove Turkish language because it’s wrong
Turkish language is not spoken in Albania 2001:2043:BC01:CB00:A4E9:1184:A30E:4112 (talk) 20:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Religion
There are some things that must be changed in this article:
1)Remove the terms Majority and Minority in the Religion section of the introduction, despite the differencrs in the percentages they are treated equally and in Christianity part, put Orthodoxy in the beggining, because there are less Albanian Catholics than Albanian Orthodox.
2)Remove the table of religions towards the end of the article, mos of the datas are completely wrong. DenisBendaj08 (talk) 11:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose the table to be removed. The numbers in it are backed by sources. Misplaced Pages is based on a sources, not on personal opinions. Jingiby (talk) 12:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Jingiby I agree DenisBendaj08 (talk) 12:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)