User talk:Lir: Difference between revisions

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			{{unblock reviewed\|1=I haven't broken a single rule, and I'm being banned by people who hold personal grudges against me. Several Wikipedians have questioned the validity of this ban, so there is clearly not consensus, and meanwhile those banning me have utterly ignored the entire dispute resolution process; in addition, they have banned me from IRC, the mailing list, and are censoring my user_talk page so as to prevent me from having any chance of ever appealing this. All I want is a fair trial before the arbitration committee, where the specific evidence against me is spelled out, and I am given a chance to present my side of the story.\|decline=arbcom-l (at) lists (dot) wikimedia.org ]<sup>g</sup> 19:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)}}
	'''how much wiki can the wiki wiki before the ignorant masses realize what a wikiwiki is ?'''
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			The page ] has been speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This was done under ], because it was an ] disambiguation page which either
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			Under the ], such pages may be deleted at any time. Please ].

			Please do not recreate the material without addressing these concerns, but do not hesitate to add information in line with ]. If you think this page should not have been deleted for this reason, you may contact the {{Querylink\|Special:Log\|qs=type=delete&page=SmarTruck\|deleting administrator}}, or if you have already done so, you may open a discussion at ]. <!-- Template:Db-disambig-deleted --><!-- Template:Db-csd-deleted-custom --> <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
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			== "Hierachy" listed at ] ==
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			An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect ] and has thus listed it ]. This discussion will occur at {{slink\|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 24#Hierachy}} until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <small>]</small> <sup>]</sup> 08:47, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
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			== ] of ] ==
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			The article ] has been ] because of the following concern:
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			<blockquote>'''No evidence of meeting ].'''</blockquote>
	If I revert any changes on New Imperialism, I'll justify them. But remember, this is a collaborate effort. So expect criticism from anyone. It can be an arena for unfettered, zero-sum struggles (which sometimes produces good articles!). But it's far easier to collaborate. BTW, you've been doing very good work since your comeback. Please forgive me for my roles in the bannings of Vera Cruz, Dietary Fiber, Susan Mason, etc. ] 08:12, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)

			While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
	Should I assume from your comments at ] that you believe the names of the 9/11 hijackers are the names of actual pilots still flying in the US, and that the attacks were in fact sponsored somehow by the American government? ] 21:15, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

			You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc\|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your ] or on ].
	: Ask him if he works for the Department of Homeland Security before answering ;-) ]
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	Hi Lir, I'm not trying to pick on you, but please don't rename ] to ], the citric vs. Krebs cycle has already been hashed out (see ]) and citric acid cycle is the currently used term in almost all modern cell and biochemistry texts (see Talk also for stats justifiying this). The article also clearly mentions Krebs cycle in the first sentence, so nobody will miss this as a synonym. (i.e. if you are looking for "Krebs cycle", you will be redirected to Citric acid cycle and you will be able to see quickly that it's talking about the same thing). --] 10:08, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)

			Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc\|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ] (]) 20:02, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

			== Good article reassessment for ] ==
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			] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the ]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ] (]) 15:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
	In negative feedback, this sentence occurs:
	"When a change of variable occurs in a system, it reacts to regain its equilibrium." I think this is only true for a stable system. ] 12:22, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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	Hi Lir, what's the point of moving ] around? I think the former title was much better - while "zootomical" may be more correct in a technical sense, that term is certainly largely unknown to the public, but "anatomical" is something many people would understand. I don't see why we should insist on pushing academic peculiarities when there is a widely known and almost equally correct title. ] 15:04, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

	----
	Please stop adding your "contact me... " notice to the header to vfd.

	#It is up to you, if you want to, to vote on vfd. It is not someone else's job to come running to you to request your vote.
	#It takes up space on a page that already has a problem with being too long.
	#Vfd is about what is best for everyone, not what is best or easiest for Lir.

	Also don't mark non-minor edits as minor. ]] 06:28, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

	And while you are at it, please use the 'preview' function more often. --]

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	I put the quote back to its original wording before removing the square brackets, Lir. -- ]
	:Oh, and you still haven't answered my questions re:anarchists who ''don't'' oppose government. Can we have some references please?--]

	----

	Just because ] was unprotected doesn't mean that you should feel entitled to resume your edit war. You had a chance to exercise good judgment by trying to make progress towards consensus on the talk page. Instead, we're back where we started.

	I invite you to discuss your differences with the other interested contributors on the talk page. I advise you that forward progress will likely only come if you make some compromises.

	I've noted that some of your comments on the talk page of the article have focused on others' behavior, rather than the content itself. There is an appropriate place for such comments, and it's the talk page ''of the individuals concerned''. I ask that you restrict the topic of your comments on the talk page of the article to the content of that article.

	I ask you in a totally non-rhetorical fashion: what are your goals with respect to ]? Please reply on this page or my talk page.

	-- ] 19:49, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

	I was watching, but I was somewhat at a loss when 168 decided to try to have you banned. If you can that the way you bracketed Peak's acerbic comments, there may be a chance for forward progress to be made. -- ] 06:01, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

	Did you notice my suggested change before snoyes reverted it, Lir?

	] 21:22, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

	I was refering to the change to your user page. ] 22:29, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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	That was a very nice re-phrase of the paragraph in the Socialism article that cross-references to the Socialism and Nazism page! ] 07:23, 2004 Jan 18 (UTC)

	== note on PM of UK ==

	Lir, I've used some of the 'pedias recent down time to research an answer to your questions about British PMs on the Request for Peer Review Page, and I've placed a response on ] page. Thanks, ] 18:32, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)
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	Because I feel that the fact I voted on whether to include the temp link may be perceived by some as an expression of bias with regards to the article. ]] 22:02, Jan 30, 2004 (UTC)

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	Lir, please stop with the edit wars. Please try to understand why other people are taking other views, examine your own. Put the text in the talk article for others to evaluate if you think it's being taken out unfairly. -- ] 00:17, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

	== fuss ==

	Do you really think its bad me having my talk page so long? I was gonna wait till it got to 101... The fuss.... I have issues w atheists, basically. Because of my position, normally rationally editors refuse to accept documentation. I love documentation, references, '''citations'''. Thats why I love encyclopedias, the supposed love of facts. Its kinda weird we havn't spoken before, I hear about you alot. I've actually argued against both you and wik being banned. Of course I don't know much about the particulars. But honestly, neither of you seem like trolls to me. The people I'm mad at do alot more flamming, and rejection of the truth. Anyways, nice to meet ya. I believe your on my AIM ;) ] 07:06, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

	:MarderIII is it? I've never know it to work, always sez yer not available. ] 07:12, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

	I think you make their point here Adam. Consider this:'''My comment was in defense of you.''' and yet you make an argument of it. ] -] 22:24, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

	----------

	I'm disappointed to see that you haven't been able to work out your differences with the other users on the New Imperialism talk page. From what I've observed, my impression is that all parties have failed to reach an accord given that no one has been able to convince you as to ''why'' the list of nineteenth century historical figures and events fails to serve a function in introducing the article series. As I said a while ago when we were working on the ] page, you cooperate with users when they try to convince you to change your mind rather than force you.

	With this in mind, I'll try explain my objections to the list here without arguing from authority or attacking your motivations. To start, here is the list that I find the most troublesome:

	], ], ], and ]; as well as ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and ].

	First, what are the criteria for determining who is going to be included in the list and who's not? It seems to be a ''random'' list. What do they all share in common, other than being rough contemporaries of each other? The list includes heads of state, heads of government, colonial administrators, a literary figure, and a social democratic theoretician from seven different imperialist powers. A reader unfamiliar with the era will be puzzled as to what they all share in common. For example, the list includes reluctant imperialists, ardent imperialists, anti-imperialists, and opportunistic imperialists.

	Grover Cleveland hardly even falls into any of these categories. His successor, William McKinley, was the one who ushered the US into the great power game. While other factors were laying the groundwork for the Spanish-American War later in the 1890s, Cleveland's diplomatic and trade policies drew the ire of proponents of an aggressive foreign policy like Henry Cabot Lodge, McKinley, and Theodore Roosevelt.

	This leads to the observation that although they are contemporaries, the historical actors whom you are listing are operating in different strategic, institutional, and chronological contexts. For example, some are longtime promoters of formal overseas colonialism, while others changed their stances in the wake of the new continental balance of power after the Franco-Prussian War.

	IMHO, it would be best if the intro merely mentioned Disraeli and why historians often cite his Crystal Palace Speech as the beginning of the race to grab the remaining stretches of the globe not integrated into world markets or a colonial sphere.

	Second, why are some figures listed before others and vice versa? It is obviously not an alphabetical list. It doesn't seem to be in chronological order either. Just as the selection of who is listed is random, so is the organization. The randomness heightens the confusion of readers with an elementary knowledge base on the subject.

	I know that you are trying to be helpful. You are trying to make the article as accessible to general readers as possible. As I've said before, your deep skepticism of arguments from authority and groups of users always ready to revert your changes on the spot is a sign of a keen mind. But given the concerns that I've just laid out, IMHO, the list just makes understanding the broad trajectories of imperialism in this era more confusing to general readers. Rather than the lists, a single note on how Disraeli's speech is seen as a watershed mark would be more succinct and constructive in the introduction.

	Now, here are my concerns with the general overview. This may be bombarding the lay reader with too much information right away:

	]s continue to ] the ] of the "New Imperialism"; most notably, the relationship this period has with the ], the ], and the ]. This period coincides with the rise of ], ], ], and the ]; and, during this periodwere beginning to ]. The ] and ] nese War\|Russo-Japanese]] (]), ] (]-]), ] (]), and ] (]-] -- ]-]) were all fought during this period.

	We do not need an overview on the origins and consequences of the race for formal colonies so early in the intro. Moreover, the first section of the content body of the article ] is itself an ''executive summary'' of a daughter on the ]. Giving an overview of the origins is far too ambitious for the intro. Instead, the introduction should give an idea of the broad trajectories of the era, namely that were are seeing a new intensity in the great power competition to extend control and power over other parts of the globe. In a sense, we need to make it clear that there is an observable pattern of change in this era, and that we're not just dealing with flux.

	In short, I'm hoping that these comments better explain why objections have been made to your recent revisions on the New Imperialism page. I hope to see you resolve your differences with the other users so that the protection notice can be lifted from the article. In addition, it would be far better for you to expend your talents and energies on more productive and rewarding endeavors than a long-running edit war going nowhere. ] 10:21, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

	Hi. I saw that you had mailed ISM and asked for their permission to use their images and I think that is really great because that site has enough photos to decorate a 100 articles. Would you like to also include the e-mail address and such things so that it is more verifiable that they gave their blessing? Just in case someone complains. ] 03:22, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

	------

	Sorry for my late reply. I've been quite distracted by other articles.

	Your idea for a list of major historical figures is excellent. It would make a great daughter article with a link in the series box. Right now, no list consolidates (or contains each link to) existing lists of significant office holders (e.g., ], ], and ]).

	If we get around to such a list, holders of an official title can be listed chronologically, while we'd have to use some discretion with the lists of significant explorers, financers, writers, missionaries, anti-imperialist resistance leaders, and imperial critics from the U.S. and Europe.

	To be more ambitious, a ], chronicling the political, diplomatic, military, and economic history of the era would illustrate some interesting patterns, giving readers a sense of the relationship between the politics and economics. I can work with you on this and send you some external links if you're interested.

	Anyway, going back to the introduction, I'm not sure if we need to jump right into capitalist industrialization, amalgamation of industry, the rise of finance capitalism, the Long Depression, the breakdown of the Congress of Vienna, the rise of pre-WWI alliance system, etc. in the intro. These matters tell us more about the origins and consequences of the era rather than ''what'' was going on.

	In other words, the intro should brief the general reader on the characteristics characteristics that distinguish this stage of imperialism, seeing the rise of the great power scramble for formal colonies, from the economic imperialism of the previous stage (the era of undisputed ''Pax Britannica'').

	In that note, I agree with you that a list on wars, annexations, diplomacy, and formal colony-building in the era might be helpful (e.g., the Congress of Berlin, the Fashoda Incident, the Anglo-Boer War, and the Tangier Crises). You have my support if you want to restore the part of your list in the intro dealing with wars and treaties.

	Once this is established, we can then explain ''why''. We deal with the "why" part after the intro all; the first section of the article itself is a summary of the daughter article on the ]. ] 19:41, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

	---------

	It's conventional to define the topic first, and then proceed to describe the causes. Since you're a vocal defender of making articles as accessible to general readers as possible, this should be relatable to you.

	Say, e.g., that someone doesn't know anything about the topic. When tying to figure out what this is all about, he/she would start reading about the "causes and consequences" and wonder what these things are the origins of in the first place. It's best to start them off with what happened first, and then why.
	Given the reactions the I got when I started the article last December, the first question on readers' mind seemed to be was what distinguished "New Imperialism" from other forms of imperialism throughout history.

	The same goes for the American Civil War, WWI, and WWII. Below are the intros from these three articles. Notice that they start saying that a war was fought. Later, they proceed to explain why.

	:The '''American Civil War''' was fought in the ] from ] until ] between the northern ], popularly referred to as the the USA, the Union, the North, or the ]s; and the ] southern states, commonly referred to as the ], the CSA, the Confederacy, the South, the Rebels, or ].

	:'''World War I''' or '''the First World War''', ] - ], was the first ] that involved nations spanning more than half the globe, hence ].

	:It was commonly called '''The Great War''' or sometimes "the war to end wars" until ] started, although the name "First World War" was coined as early as 1920 by Lt-Col à Court Repington in ''The First World War 1914-18''.

	BTW, are you still interested in a list of historical actors or a New Imperialism timeline? ] 01:27, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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	Replying at my ] ] 07:12, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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	Why did you revert my removal of the redundant ] link on ]? ] 07:58, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
	: Okay. I assumed as much. Cheers ] 19:50, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

	----
	Thanks for supporting my run for ]...for what it's worth. ;-) If I win, let me know if you need any "special favors" like a deferred health inspection or an IRS audit for one of your friends. :-)
	--] 02:25, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
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	Hey Lir,

	I used your China being divided image in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/Qing_Dynasty#The_19th_century ] 05:07, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
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	Of course. I'll remember that for the future. I hope that the current version is acceptable? And in exchange, please use the edit summary. Good luck and good work! ] 14:43, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
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	Lir, I've read 5 out of 11 of your ] list. And I appreciate your efforts to help users understand NPOV. Would you like to work with Martin and me at the ]? --] 16:32, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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	== Computer / Video games ==
	Hi Lir - in the past you've worked on the ] and ] pages - if you're still interested, I'm looking at drafting a reorganisation at ]. Take a look, and edit or comment! ] 18:10, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

	==DNA==
	Do you have a problem with the DNA page? ] 20:19, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	==Ban of Plautus Satire==

	If Plautus satire is able to convince Jimbo that he wants to be a productive member of the community, Jimbo will simply overturn the ban instituted by the Arbitration Committee. So:

	* your ban was until you convinced Jimbo that you wanted to be a productive member of the community, a time period potentially much longer than a year;

	* Plautus satire's ban is until he convinces Jimbo that he wants to be a productive member of the community, or a year, whichever comes first.

	-- ] 07:21, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)~
	----
	Hi. I appreciate your support, I just resist mediation but I don’t object to your asking for it. These are my points concerning DNA: 1) I object to the language "because they propagate their traits by doing so." It is inaccurate in part because DNA doesn't exactly "do" things, and because the contribution of DNA to the propogation of traits, however significant, is not total; the propogation of traits involves other things. 2) I object to the language "It encodes the structure and functions of an organism." Technically, it does not encode the structure and functions of a cell; it encodes the structure of proteins for enzymes that are vital to the structure and function of cells and organs. I think this is a very important and too often misunderstood/oversimplified distinction that gives people a misleading view of how inherited traits work. ]

	I am glad we agree on DNA, thanks. And you may be right about mediation, what you say makes sense. But I haven't really been active on that page and think it is more appropriate for those who have, to call for mediation when needed. By the way, I am verycurious to know who Gil Armanizm was/is, and what "ITZAK MORGA RIN" means, if you don't mind sharing. ]

	==Mediation==
	Hello Lir -- I'm sorry about the delay in responding -- I've been away from my computer most of the weekend. I'd be happy to do what I can to help, and I think we should start with a conversation as soon as we both can "get together." I'm on IRC right now, and we could start talking there if you'd like it to be in private -- and if now or at any point you would like it to be in public, we can start a thread on the message board. Thanks, ]<font color=chartreuse>¤</font>] 21:13, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)


	==Mediation==

	Lir, I'm confused. Who is it that you are requesting mediation with? If the other parties refuse mediation then there is nothing the mediation committee can do. If mediation is impossible, the arbitration committee is the next step, a totally separate group of people. You need to ask THEM to arbitrate. Furthermore, it is incorrect to assert that the mediators ''en masse'' are refusing to mediate any of your issues. I, for one, certainly haven't been directly asked ... at least to my knowledge. Furthermore, I believe you misunderstand the mediation process, you must initiate it by requesting mediation with a specific individual or group of individuals. They then either agree or decline to participate in mediation. Until that point, there is NOTHING that the mediators can or should do. Also, I don't even see a request for mediation from you on the Requests for Mediation page.. all I see is a somewhat nebulous request for assitance from Brian. If you would clarify your issues and follow the appropriate procedure, I'm sure things will be able to move along more quickly. I would certainly be willing to mediate any issue you may think proper, but only if the other parties acquiesce, as that is a limitation of the process. --] \| ] 21:15, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

	:With due respect to Dante and others who may have questions or comments, I want to ask that for the time being -- since Lir has asked me for my help and I have agreed to give it -- that people give the two of us the space to figure it out, and trust that we can find ways of moving this forward. Thanks, ]<font color=chartreuse>¤</font>] 21:35, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

	Please see, and if needed correct, ]. ] 23:35, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	==Checking in...==
	Hi Lir -- I haven't heard back from you about my response to of yours. Perhaps the mediation with Ed is enough? Please let me know if you'd still like my help -- my offer still stands, and I'm more than happy to do what I can. Thanks again, ]<font color=chartreuse>¤</font>] 16:25, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
	----
	I'd like to start by having a "conversation" so we're both clear about what I'm doing as a starting point. I'm about to go into a series of meetings that will start in 30 minutes and will go until about 9 p.m. (it's 12:30 now). However, the first meeting is a conference call, and I can be on IRC starting then -- would that work for you? If not, we could pick another time, and in either case, I'd like to use the Mediation board if you want our discussions to be public, or we start an obscure page to use communicate with each other. I'm open to proceding either way, or if you want to propose another way, that's fine too.

	Thanks, ]<font color=chartreuse>¤</font>] 17:36, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

	Lir, if you are around at some point on IRC, I would like to talk to you. ] 17:56, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	Hello,

	Please give your opinion here ].

	] 06:03, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	==Let's start talking==
	Hi Lir. I've started a thread -- so that we we can keep talking even if we're on totally different schedules. I'm looking forward to our "conversation!" Thanks, ]<font color=chartreuse>¤</font>] 14:15, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)

	==Mastaba==
	Hi there - it looks like you started this article - could you look over the talk page and settle an issue over decomposition rates if you have some time? Thanks, ] 20:33, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
	:Thanks - most interesting! ] 19:20, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	===Mastaba (too)===
	Thanks too... You really convinced me... ] 20:41, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	==Thank you so much, Lir==
	And in order NOT to less tha cabal opress me, I now retire in peace from Wiki. QED :O) Yours, - ] 08:25, 2004 Mar 31 (UTC)

	==Iridology==
	Hi, i was wondering why you added irismeisters supposed "research" group back into iridology ? ] 06:40, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	Please respect the three revert rule. We have these rules for a reason you know. ] 18:18, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	==Mediation==

	Hello Lir. I know that relations between you and the mediation committee are not good at the moment, but (as far as I am aware) you and I have never had any personal or editing disagreements. So I'd like to offer my help as a mediator. I think it would be helpful to start a private discussion so that I can find out how and where it would be most useful to work with you and who else should be involved. Are you willing to accept me as a mediator? If so, please could you e-mail me at sannse (at) delphiforums.com Thanks -- ] ] 19:02, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC) (mediation committee)

	I like of ] and its relation to fascism and socialism. Have a nice weekend. --] 22:06, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	== League of Trollz! ==

	Yes! In my user pages I have correctly defined troll. And, I have even started a '''documented''' list. Due to her recent activities, I will have add a certain person to yet another '''documented''' list.

	Having been officially identified as a notorious Internet Troll by the Wikipedian ], I should unite with other editors, so classified, and explicitly point out with documentation exactly who the trolls and thought police actually are!!!

	I have already started a nice collection. -- ] 18:33, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	Lir, and John, it's good for you to organize! I'm having my own network of friends off-wiki who monitor the Wiki thought police quite closely, using trusted third parties. Since everything is put into writing, we know who is who and who does what to whom. Chomsky once wrote about denial of reality, denial of justice and the inevitable decay and bitter downfall of the American sense of truth and honor. Let us prove Chomsky wrong! Sincerely, ] 22:33, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC)

	:"I'm having my own network of friends off-wiki who monitor the Wiki thought police quite closely"...in other words, you've created your own thought police. Have you become what you fight against? ] 23:21, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	::Negative :O) Watching the police is not policing the police ! Police should only know that every single gesture of brutality they commit is monitored, filmed, documented and deposited in trusted archives for late times. If they care to think this monitoring activity is thought poolice, they either can't read or they can't understand the word ''watch''. Anyway, how they choose to solve the ''quies custodiet ipsos custodes'' apparent pseudo-fallacy is their own problem now. But ], I much appreciate your subtle, ponderate, free attitude. This proves what I see here that institutions that are lousy as a group can have extremely wonderful and valuable individuals working for them. Without you, and a few other true believers, the Wiki ship would sink the very next day. I am banned (perhaps by mercy, as not to see it happen :O). So now, it's up to you now to maintain, issue, reinforce or only contemplate a "Do not ressuscitate" order from the Wiki Hospital's select committee on ethics :O) - ] 16:40, 2004 Jul 24 (UTC)

	::Defarge's knitting is never done. - ] 23:28, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
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	== Waniek's BOBE ==

	Lir, forgive my intruson, but do you have any idea what BOBE stands for before including the huge Waniek's list of self-published essays? If not, I recommend you try to find a university library and do a computer search for his publications. I recommend SciFinder Scholar from CAS. You'll find only 2 papers dating back in 1986-1987. He has a more recent paper published in ''Medical Hypotheses'' which is a pay-to-publish journal -- not sure how much peer review it involves. You could also try the US National Library of Medicine which is indexing published medical papers from all over the world. More than that, the BOBE is an indexing code Waniek is using on his own site. That's how he codes his essays. Please. Those are not scientific papers.--] 21:57, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	Did I ever say they were? ]

	Then that's a vanity page and should be deleted. He is not a well known personality and has no major contributions to whatever fiels of knowledge. Isn't this how Misplaced Pages works?--] 22:11, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	Its not a vanity page, hundreds of websites already mention Waniek and his work. There is no reason not to mention him here, except that you have some kind of personal vendetta against him. ]

	C'mon! Vendetta? Let's take a look at those hundred websites: they're all open directories where anyone can get their site listed. Except for the Get Cited site wher he's got his resume listed. Do you by any chance get a different result with google and ''"dan waniek" iridology''?--] 22:26, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	You seem to think I might care that Waniek's work is not necessarily "high-quality". I don't care. There are websites which talk about how Waniek is a "quack" -- do I care whether Waniek is a quack? No, I do not; quackery is not grounds for not having an article about him. ]

	I sense you imply that any essay writer on the internet could (should?) have an article dedicated for them in Misplaced Pages. Why don't you have your own article? I like your art better than I like Waniek's ramblings. Please take a look at Santilli's "magnecule" site at http://www.usmagnegas.com/ . An article on him was just deleted from Misplaced Pages on claims of vanity. Why don't you also write an article on that guy? And there are thousands more, I'm sure.--] 22:45, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)~

	Waniek is more than an essay writer. I suppose I ''am'' of the opinion that everyone with a PhD automatically deserves an article. ]

	I disagree but this is not because of any ''personal vendetta''. But then, as you say, why do I care? There's still a Britannica out there to trust. But just to prevent that "publication list" from being misleading, I still think you should add a note explaining what ''BOBE'' really is. It could be taken for an actual, "official" reference code of some sort...--] 06:17, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	I can't do everything. But I won't revert it if you add such an explanation. I don't see what is meant by "Brittanica is still out there to trust" -- what is untrustworthy about my additions, is anyone still claiming they are false? I thought the argument had been downgraded to a simple case of "he isn't famous enough". ]

	It is not just that. ''Publication'' these days means more than merely ''writing made public''. If I want to learn more about -say- iridology and bumb into your article on Waniek, I might be mislead into thinking "gee, iridology ''is'' science, with peer-reviewed published studies and full-size scientists and so." That is, if I didn't know BOBE was a ''fake'' indexing code and Waniek was only popular on link-to-me and free directory websites. It ''looks'' "official" and it is ''misleading'' the unsuspecting reader. Waniek might have a wider vocabulary than the average layperson, he might have been the first in his high-school class, but he ''is'' misleading people into buying unverified science, and he's been using Misplaced Pages for that purpose. And, by the way, I think he only has an MD degree, not a PhD, but might be wrong.

	Well, the CNRI says he has a PhD. Whether or not iridiology is an actual science, thats something for NPOV to deal with. Deleting the Waniek article is not going to make the debate over iridology go away. ]

	Debate is aways good. However, appearances are not a good argument in the debate. The article on Waniek only adds to the appearances of an established science in a misleading fashion. It's not your fault. He's a master of appearances. I wish science was as simple as putting up a website and coming up with a BOBE numbering. CNRI doesn't list him at . The old and unlinked page at says he's only got an MD.--] 17:42, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	But he is mentioned listed here: http://www.cnri.edu/Courses_In_Iridology/CNRI_Professors.htm

	Agree, but that page is no longer linked in the main site, it only shows up in Google. And, just checking, do you happen to know who at Hawkeye Community College in Iowa voted as Irismeister on the VfD page? the IP is 209.56.187.195 and it just showed up.

	thats me, im having computer problems -- its right here dude: http://www.cnri.edu/Courses_In_Iridology/CNRI_Professors.htm ]

	Yes Lir, I can see that. My point was that the page in question is not directly accessible by browsing http://cnri.edu/ . It is still available via google, but that's because of the lag time between web publishing and google indexing. I somehow suspect Marcia recently removed Waniek from the profs list. Sorry for exposing the IP above, you can delete my remark -- I thought Waniek himself was actually somehow trying to bypass the ban.

	All that means is that he might no longer be at CNRI. He certainly used to be part of the staff, and they still consider him a "pioneer". ]

	==Thanks Lir==

	Thanks for the barnstar Lir, I know I fought hard for freedom on Misplaced Pages, so i am glad to have earned it! and remember, "On tyrants only we'll make war!"--] 07:07, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	== wikivacation ==

	take a break, but don't leave. You may be a difficult and annoying rascal, but your also usually right. I for one would count your permanant abscense as a gaping hole in the social fabric of the wiki. Cheers mate, ] ] 21:28, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	:A wikivacation is a good idea Lir. I strongly suggest that you stop what you are doing and take a break - even a few hours would be a good idea. Suggesting others vandalise pages - even in jest is not going to help anything. Regards -- ] ] 21:40, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	::A lot of people work hard to show respect to other users, I like to think I am one of them, I have certainly tried to show my respect for you. I have seen you show respect and politeness towards others, so I know this is something you feel important too. Why not have a break for a while and keep things calm. -- ] ] 21:45, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	:::OK, I'm glad you are taking a break. I hope to continue our mediation discussion shortly. I'll reply to your latest e-mail tomorrow. -- ] ] 21:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	::::I suggest we continue to discuss that via e-mail -- ] ] 21:58, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	Sam, if you're going to write a respect speech, spell "absence" correctly :). Nonetheless, I agree with Sam's comments: you are a valued member of the community (no matter how much others try to show otherwise), and you shouldn't leave because of the ubergheyness. For one thing, I don't consider myself uberghey, although many people may think I'm uberghey :). ] 21:48, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

	:I certainly agree with you. ] 21:53, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

	You disappoint us, Adam. You promised you would go away. ] \| ] 03:38, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	:Adam isn't going away, that was just a bit of foot stomping/door slamming because she didn't get her own way. Anyway she does actually make some good contibutions to wikipedia, so I'd hate to be the one to drive her out. Besides, she has given me such a laugh, her argument of "shut up" was a classic. ] 08:48, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	Nice comment on the mailing list, Pookie. Now tell us what you '''really''' think. --] 17:55, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	hallo :-) was sollten wir mit den dummen verwaltern tun? (do you read german? I dont want others to read this) ] 00:16, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	== Requests for comments on RK ==

	] has been created as structured way to gather support in the Wikipedian community for action to be taken against ] for his consistent use of aggressive editing tactics that are counter productive to the development of high quality encyclopedic articles. Now, is your chance to voice your grievances against ]. Please take a few minutes of your time to air your comments.

	At least two users must document and certify my efforts in ]. If the listing is not certified within 48 hours of listing, it will be removed. Please certify your concerns over vandalism done by RK. -- ] 06:00, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	==THANK YOU !==
	Lir, what you did during my ban for the cause of freedom is fantastic! You made a lot of friends off Wiki and especially in Wiki, for passion in the service of a real cause is so rarely seen in writing these days! Freedom of speech, of information, and even the feeling of freedom, such a refreshing, good and clear sentiment, are attacked every second. I never assumed my freedoms were gained, but your disinterested, genuine help was so encouraging that again I started to breathe that incredibly pure air! Thanks to you, Lir ! But you did even more - you defended an idea of truth which seemed impossible to defend. With time, no doubt, like in good wine, a sense of patience in passion will add up to the fine taste of sunshine turned into sweet aromas. The cause you defend is so subtle and profound ''especially'' because of the apparently never ending lists of adversities. They make us all better and never bitter. :O)] 18:37, 2004 Apr 19 (UTC)

	Indeed Lir you were brave in standing up to threasa check ] out, if you agree be a "member" say "yes" on my talk page ]

	'''Emergency, Mayday, Wiki Wiki'''<br>
	Mayday! Dear Lir, the WikiRepublic is in danger! Wikipolice make their ''coup d'êtat''! Please add your voice and come help John ''wiki wiki''. Thank you ! - Yours, - ] 17:25, 2004 May 19 (UTC)

	== Request for Comments on Theresa Knott ==

	] has been created as structured way to gather support in the Wikipedian community for action to be taken against ] for her consistent use of aggressive editing tactics that are counter productive to the development of high quality encyclopedic articles. Now, is your chance to voice your grievances against ]. Please take a few minutes of your time to air your comments. Feel free to expand the list of problem areas by adding problems or grievances of your own. -- ] 04:48, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

	----
	Does mean you're back? :) ] 09:51, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

	Welcome back, Lir! Even though I differ with you on a lot of strategy and tactics, I still remember your ] when I was new, and appreciate where you're coming from -- politically and wikipolitically. If you ''are'' back to stay, ] is going to be a lightning rod, and I'd bet you'd rather have lightning strike someplace else....

	Peace & WikiLove, ]<font color=chartreuse>\|</font>] 12:10, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

	:Hi again. Is -- ]<font color=chartreuse>\|</font>] 03:37, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

	Welcome back! ] 22:32, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

	== Family name in Arabic ==
	Based on the comments in ] you made, I can tell you do not know how an Arabic name works. See ] for information on that. ] 00:57, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

	Lir, Arabic names are a bit different from "Western" names and can get very complicated. You told me you knew how names work, but you didn't tell me that you know how Arabic names work.

	Now, as for Osama bin Laden, he "doesn't count", because while conventional Arabic would say "Osama" is the best short-hand for his name, his family uses "bin Laden" as a surname, Western-style. ] 07:07, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

	It is not possible - he is passing down the family name as well as the father's name. "Al-Tikriti" is still in Uday's name - but "Uday Hussein" is a popularly used shortform simply because of how "Hussein" is thought to be Saddam's surname when it actually isn't. In Iraq, the shortform "Uday Saddam Hussein" was used.

	If you are wondering where the "al-'s" went, Iraqis don't have those.

	Likewise with OBL, he doesn't have any "family name" though he has the name of the father's and the father's father's and such right down to Laden. And OBL's equivalent of Hussein would be "Muhammad" - his father's name. ] 07:35, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

	Please stop adding that disclaimer. And please stop with the sockpuppets. ] 05:09, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

	== ] ==

	Hello Lir

	I moved your statement regarding ] to ] in accordance with the new policy on such matters. You may wish to fill out the template there more completely, since without the additional required information, the dispute may be removed.

	Best regards

	]
	----
	Hi, let me know why my edits in ] were reverted. ] 19:04, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
	:Because my edits were reverted, and your edits were made on top of the revert. Lirath Q. Pynnor
	::I still don't understand why you have to overwrite other's changes to put yours back. Please respect other people's edits. ] 09:08, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	==Saddam==
	What is the reason for your continued campaigning on ]? No one but you seems to regard the disclaimer as appropriate, much less necessary, for reasons I think well explained. Furthermore, you must know your edits will just be reverted, especially if you are erasing others' work. All you are doing is creating ill will against yourself. ]] 08:09, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	== Please ==

	Lir, you need to find within yourself some humility. You also need to shake off whatever is bothering you, and move forward. This project relies heavily on cooperation, communication, forgiveness, sharing, empathy and goodness. Please review ], and please start acting in a way you want others to act. Sincerely, ] 15:44, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	==Little Tin God Sysop==

	I've removed your edit to ]'s userpage, and put it on the talk page instead, since it seemed more appropriate to that. ] 20:04, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)

	:Sorry. In the future I will move your edits around as needed without telling you. ] 20:08, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)

	==Question==
	Hello Lir, in case you missed it I have asked a question at ]. -- ] ] 15:10, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	Thanks for the message. I'll continue following the page. ] 05:30, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	==Sockpuppets==

	I ''know'' that we can never know who is a sockpuppeteer and who isn't. What I'm upset about is your nomination of IndigoGenius. You know that a nomination for administrator is not taken seriously for a user with less than 500 contributions. I seriously don't think you're Plato, but with Indigo I'm more suspicious. --]</font><big>✍</big>] 15:49, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)
	:QUOTE: "Ermf, I don't want to believe that Lir is evil (read: troublesome), (s)he has contributed decently."

	You make an unfortunate generalization. I am in no position to judge a person by their views rather than their edits, and I have never tried to. I only hope that you do not let your views leak into your contributions. And I understand that if Indigo Genius edited under a different username, perhaps (s)he would like edits transferred to the IG account from his/her previous one? --]</font><big>✍</big>] 11:47, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

	==TINC==

	'''T'''here '''I'''s '''N'''o '''C'''abal.

	You and Indigo Genius can get your edits transferred, but it takes a while for the developers to get to it. I requested transfers a while ago; I don't think my request has been finished and ''I'm a sysop!'' Good luck. <sub>Peace Profound]</sub> --]</font><big>✍</big>] 14:09, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

	I agree with you that "This site is hierarchical; there are haves and have-nots -- people with power, and those without." There is no doubting that. However, it is completely untrue that <u>every</u> sysop and bureaucrat is out to crush the have-nots. Unfortunately, the only admin I can speak for is myself. --]</font><big>✍</big>] 15:20, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

	Do you read the mailing list? You should. Then you'll see that <u>no admin</u> is out to get and crush any regular user. <sub>Peace Profound]</sub> --]</font><big>✍</big>] 23:50, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

	You're right, there ''are'' admins that have abused power. That's why we have ]. Wouldn't, however, you say that more admins than not would rather help than silence users? --]</font><big>✍</big>] 00:47, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

	Let's have some proof. Name names. Give links. ''Bring it on.'' :) --]</font><big>✍</big>] 00:58, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)


	== Thank you Lir! ==
	I thank you for your support, and I am really greatful for what you did on wiki for the cause of truth, freedom of information, especially medical, and for me and Dr Waniek personally. Here is my last contribution before my next ban (I'm now banned for every word I add :O) - . Sincerely yours - ] 16:30, 2004 Jul 24 (UTC)

	I wrote email to all lists, being banned for saying the truth, and writing to this page, and I quickly add this before my next impending ban (had hundreds lately :O) - ] 10:51, 2004 Jul 26 (UTC)

	:::There is no such evidence, Theresa, so the fact that your brain must be tired, by your own admission, should perhaps read as bottomline, or baseline - you choose :O) No deadlines, please - get a well deserved vacation and leave Lir alone for once, will you ? We all know you are the troll and so do you, no matter how quickly you care to wipe this from this page and to ban me for saying it :O)- ] 17:18, 2004 Jul 24 (UTC)
	From: Dr Jipa <jipa@freemail.iris-ward.com>




	Reply-To: jipa@freemail.iris-ward.com,English Misplaced Pages <wikien-l@Misplaced Pages.org>




	To: wikien-l@Misplaced Pages.org




	Subject: Cacocracy




	Date: Sat 2004-07-24 10:43 AM



	Attachments
	Name Type Save View
	Message text/plain Save

	This has been deleted from Wiki:

	== Listen, everybody, you are like a pack of wolves on Lir !==
	Can't you all behave yourselves ? You are in this smearing campaing and
	stuff! Leave Lir alone! Leave every real contributor alone! If you have
	time to lose, attack the Wikipolice doing nothing good but destroying
	Misplaced Pages! Leave Lir alone and get some decent work done instead ! -
	] 10:54, 2004 Jul 26 (UTC)
	_______________________________________________________
	Visit the New Home of Trans-Iridial Studies:
	http;//www.iris-ward.com
	_______________________________________________
	WikiEN-l mailing list
	WikiEN-l@Misplaced Pages.org
	http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

	----
	Lir, don't be take things so personally about an edit. See ] for more. ] \| ] 03:20, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	==]==
	Can you explain edit? —] 05:59, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)
	:Ah, I see what happened.. you must have clicked on the edit link for your nomination (which was the section above mine), and then, before you saved it, some other editors did some section juggling.. and because of the dodgy way Mediawiki identifies section edits, when you hit "save", it saved it over the top of the wrong section. Fair enough, apologies for the suspicious tone of my above post. —] 08:35, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

	==Arbitration==

	If you believe that I have done anything that deserves banning, blocking, or action by the arbitration committee, I invite you to submit a request for arbitration, a request for comment, or to otherwise take action on the matter. ] 19:25, Jul 31, 2004 (UTC)


	==Sysop_Accountability_Policy==
	Maybe your proposal can include concrete instances where sysops can be perceived as "above the law"? For example, your accountability policy could include sysops making blocks that violate the blocking policy. Currently, it looks like ] had to unblock some names because the blocks violated the ], which can be seen in ]. Including something like that would outline how sysops are acting "above the law". ] 17:48, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

	==To my opponent==
	I wish you the best of luck in this month's Arbitration Committee election. May the best Wikipedian win! <sub>Peace Profound]</sub> --]</font><big>✍</big>] 10:41, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)

	===172===

	FYI, ] is not claiming to be the most senior editor, but rather the most senior sysop. --]</font><big>✍</big>] 01:46, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)

	172 is not a petty tyrant, s/he is just petty. They dont frighten me with all their ''seniority''. ] 10:28, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

	==Arbcom questions==

	A quick - OK, actually, probably a long question regarding your candidacy for the arbcom. How do you think you would have ruled/would rule in the following cases?

	*]
	*]
	*]
	*]
	*]
	*]
	*]
	*]

	Thanks very much. ] 17:43, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)


	Lirath, is not what i meant and you know it. I dislike manipulation of my words. Do not dare to use what i said to you as evidence for your agenda. This was my last conversation with you. ] 18:51, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)



	==Misplaced Pages:Votes_for_deletion/Empire_of_Atlantium==

	:Lir, you may wish to contribute to Wiki's NPOV standard by voting to eliminate the separate page on the ] micronation, a nation which has not proved to be a power like a ] or a ], and thus not deserving a separate article, at least IMHO.

	:You can vote for (or against) deletion here: ]. And please don't forget to include yourself in the tally at the top of the page. --] 21:22, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

	Thanks for participating in the ArbCom elections. ] 00:50, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

	==Arbitration defense==
	Lir - as you might know, I'm a new member of the arbitration committee. I'm looking into your case - I read the evidence list and your defense in full before posting here. I have a few questions - on that page, you have a long series of denials - (''I do not...here*''). Do you have any evidence to back these denials up, or (in lieu of that) can you present a reasonable alternate theory to explain them (such as how all those accounts got the same password as you)? I'd also like to know how you respond to the allegations that you have been abusive ("Hey, fuck you Theresa" et al). ] 07:05, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

	===Personal attacks===
	You said that others have made personal attacks on you. Would you please present evidence to support this? - both Martin and I would be interested in seeing it. ] 19:24, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

	:Lir, please provide a link to each edit which you feel consitutes a personal attack along with the name of each person you feel has made an attack and include that in the counterclaims you include on the page ]. Please notify each person you include by leaving a note on their talk page with a link to ] so they can respond. If you look at ] you will see that we sanctioned Adam Carr as well as Herschelkrustofsky. ] 00:16, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)

	== Arbitration case ==

	The case against you, ], has just closed, and it has been decided that, amongst other things, you are to be banned for a total of 15 days: 1 week for personal attacks, 1 day for violating the 3 revert policy, and 1 week for sockpuppet reverting.
	<br />
	I would suggest that you to ponder the events and actions which have led to this, and ask you to try to avoid them in the future. I hope that your actions will not have further need of our scrutiny.
	<br />
	Yours sincerely,
	<br />
	] ] 05:56, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

	===Enforcement===
	The most difficult part of our decision was the following:

	====Parole====
	Due to the longstanding nature of Lir's violations, a ] will be issued, putting Lir on parole: ''If Lir should make a provocative edit or series of edits (that is, edit wars or other edits which are "disruptive" or in violation of Misplaced Pages policy, as interpreted by an administrator) those edits may be reverted by an adminstrator who shall post the url of Lir's edits on page ] together with a brief explanation. Lir may be banned for 24 hours should he revert such a reversion. If Lir should attempt to evade this parole through the use of sockpuppets, a ban of up to one week may be imposed. Any bans made under the terms of this parole should also be listed on ]'' The Arbitration Committee shall monitor this matter and may reconsider it at anytime upon 4 Arbitrators agreeing to a motion for reconsideration at ]. Lir may make such a motion only after 6 months, any other user, including Arbitrators, may at any time.

	:Please read this carefully and try to avoid any useless bans which might arise from it. ] 14:11, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

	===Number of accounts===
	If you wish to use accounts other than Lir you must disclose their names on your user page. ] 16:40, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

	== arbitration candidacy ==

	Do you intend to post a link on the arbitration committee candidacy page to a location where you can be queried regarding your views on arbitration? If not, can this talk page space serve? -] ] 04:43, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
	* Yes, I do intend to ask a few. -] ] 06:14, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	Okay. I guess you want them to go here. So here we go. You make many bold claims on ], but one thing in particular stood out: ''As a member of the arbitration committee, I would actively seek the resignations of 172, Tim Starling, mav, Jimbo, and Angela''. As I am sure we all know, Jimbo is a member of the Board of Directors of the Wikimedia foundation, which owns the Misplaced Pages servers and runs the Misplaced Pages web site, and it is through the approval of the Board of Directors that the Arbitration Committee derives its authority. Therefore, I would like to know what function of the Arbitration Committee you believe would be either necessary or conducive to achieving this goal. Additionally, given that the Arbitration Committee is generally regarded as a judicial, rather than legislative, body, and it has not historically handed down decrees unsolicited calling for users to be banned or to resign or created legislation, and given that the Arbitration Committee currently would not allow its members to participate in deliberations over an arbitration case in which they are engaged, I wonder whether you would attempt to change one of the aforementioned standards or whether you would attempt to evade them using your self-announced "private sockpuppet army". -] ] 01:35, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	==Lir 4 Arb==

	Lir, you da man. We support you bigtime. Let us know how to help you. ] 06:25, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	==Arbitration Elections==
	You may remember that I coordinated the previous two elections, for the board, and for the arbitration committee. I am willing to coordinate this election as well, and have asked ] to assist. However, we would like to have the support of the candidates to do this. Do you support us coordinating the election? My policy is to be entirely neutral, and to ensure this, I will not be voting myself (I didn't vote in previous elections either). All results will be announced following the final count. Please answer on my talk page. ] 01:08, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	==Army of sockpuppets==

	In your candidate statement for the arbitration committee, you mention your army of sockpuppets. Does such an army exist? ] 05:29, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

	==Non-logged in edit==

	For the record Lir: I personally would consider any more votes using your user name while not logged in to be "provocative edits". In fact, until the rules are clarified, that goes for ''any'' edits under an IP that are not immediately confirmed as being you with a logged-in edit (if they are confirmed in this way, I would presume you logged out by mistake) -- ] ] 23:59, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	I've replied on my talk page -- ] ] 01:08, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	Reply on my talk page again (in future I won't notify you here, I almost always reply there so please use you watchlist to check for replies. Thanks) -- ] ] 11:07, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	Thanks for your honest response. ] 01:16, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	I apologize if I sounded patronizing. It was refreshing to me to know that my appointment wasn't unanimous, as I tend to be suspicious of unanimous votes for anything. ] 03:50, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	== Red Faction ==

	--] 04:05, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	You told me to ask Hilary to join Red Faction. I would like to join while Hilary does not want to go on Misplaced Pages in fear of the admin stalking her. Can't a girl get some privacy???

	:You are a hero!--] 06:36, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	== Arbitration case ==

	An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, the matter of ]. If you wish to supply evidence, please do so to the ].
	<br />
	Thank you very much.
	<br />
	Yours,
	<br />
	] ] 18:23, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

	== Article Licensing ==

	Hi, I've started the ] which has the goals of getting users to ] all of their contributions that they've made to...
	#...all U.S. state, county, and city articles...
	#...all articles...
	using the ] Attribution-Share Alike (''CC-by-sa'') version 1.0 and 2.0 ]s or into the ] if they prefer. The ''CC-by-sa'' license is a true free documentation license that is similar to the ] (which every contribution made to Misplaced Pages is licensed under), but it allows '''other projects''', such as ], to use our articles (See the ] for more information). Since you are among the ] most active Wikipedians, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at ''minimum'' those on the geographic articles.

	:'''Nutshell:''' Misplaced Pages articles can be shared with any other GFDL project but open/free projects using the incompatible Creative Commons Licenses (e.g. ]) can't use our stuff and we can't use theirs. It is important to us that other free projects can use our stuff. So we use their licenses too.

	To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the '''<nowiki>{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}</nowiki>''' template (or '''<nowiki>{{MultiLicensePD}}</nowiki>''' for ]) into their user page, but there are other templates for other options at ]. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

	:'''Option 1'''
	:<nowiki>I agree to ] all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:</nowiki>
	:<nowiki>{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}</nowiki>
	'''OR'''
	:'''Option 2'''
	:<nowiki>I agree to ] all my contributions to any ], county, or city article as described below:</nowiki>
	:<nowiki>{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}</nowiki>

	Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace '''<nowiki>{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}</nowiki>''' with '''<nowiki>{{MultiLicensePD}}</nowiki>'''. If you only prefer using the ], I would like to know that too. ''Please let me know'' at my ''']''' what you think. -- ] 21:25, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

	:What do you mean by "Yes"? -- ] 17:50, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

	::If by "Yes" you mean you will multi-license using the licenses listed, then you must explicitly state it by placing a notice (e.g. <nowiki>{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}</nowiki>) somewhere on your user page (e.g. ] or ]). Your statement of "Yes" to a multiple choice question is essentially a "no" in terms of legal validity. Humor me. -- ] 20:22, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

	==A Message to my Fellow Candidate==

	'''Friend,'''<br>
	The Arbitration Committee elections are almost here. I humbly ask for your vote in this election cycle. I have been a user of Misplaced Pages for over a year. I was here before the Community Portal, categories, or <nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki>. I know how Misplaced Pages operates, and I am prepared to do my part to deal with problematic accounts. I wish to cut out the bureaucracy that makes our website stagnate. We need solutions to our problems now. If you want an arbitrator who believes in action, frankness, honesty, and fairness in every case, ''I am your arbitrator''. Thank you for your time. You are under no obligation to answer this message.<br>
	:--]

	::That's not true! You know I'm not trying to censor you, or anybody else for that matter. --]</font> \| ] 20:37, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

	:::I have not had a need to stand up for greater sysop accountability in dealing with trouble users. I have not seen the widespread abuses of power that you have described. I simply want to take on more responsibility as a Wikipedian to help others. --]</font> \| ] 00:22, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

	::::I am not running from issues. Vandals don't hate the wiki; they are taking advantage of its openness. I'm not making excuses for vandals, but I wanted to let explain that. I know that many Wikipedians criticize the political system, but we all need to work together to change it. Frankly, I don't think there's a lot that can be changed. Precedents have been set. Also, I want to justify my inaction against the so-called cabal: it's not there. People scream "Cabal! Cabal!" when they are too self-centered to realize that a majority of other users have reasonably opposed them. Misplaced Pages ''is'' run by a majority vote. Do you think that can be changed? --]</font> \| ] 06:51, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

	*''In any case, you claim that nobody "hates the Misplaced Pages" yet you also claim that they are just "taking advantage of our openness" -- why would vandals choose to vandalize, if dislike of wiki-policy is not a motive? Surely you don't have the naive belief that persistent vandals are motivated by sheer lunacy??''
	**RESPONSE: No, most vandals operate by not lunacy but ignorance. Additionally, there are a small group of former users who feel they have been "wronged" and that they must resort to destruction.
	*''I assure you, there are people who hate the Misplaced Pages because it ''is'' run by a cabal. Numerous decisions here are made without democratic consensus, and many democratic votes are not well advertised or promoted (thus resulting in the domination of these votes by a small clique of hyper-active sysops).''
	**RESPONSE: What decisions have been made clandestine? Who are these sysops?
	*''Rather than advocating increased totalitarianism and banning of users whom you dislike, have you given any thought to the notion of making the wikipedia a friendlier place by requiring that sysops adhere to a higher standard of conduct?''
	**RESPONSE: Our standards are high enough, to begin with. Second, I don't ban anybody I dislike. I would much rather ignore them. Instead, I have banned only severe vandals. If you believe otherwise, go ahead and call me out on it. I have nothing to hide. --]</font> \| ] 02:31, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

	Yes I remember who are, I mentioned it on the sub-page that I allowed you to edit my userpage.--] 04:33, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	== Update on mailing list ==

	I made some significant progress on the mailing list issue the other day. I think wikien-l is fully cleared now. A google search the other day turned up nothing. I will keep looking from time to time, and fixing anything else I find. If you can send me a specific url with a problem, this will help me. I now know how to rebuild the archives correctly, but it requires taking the mailing lists offline for like an hour, so people will scream at me if I do it too often. ] 14:31, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
	:You'd do better if you didn't misuse the mailing list jimmy. Other people manage to run and use mailing lists without using them to goad people, why can't you? Why do you regard members of the public who bother to take trouble over using, and helping, your site as a "captive audience" of animals for you to abuse? ] 20:57, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	== Unverified images ==

	I know it's been a few years since you uploaded ] but it currently doesn't
	have a ].
	Could you add one to let us know their copyright status? (You can
	use <nowiki>{{gfdl}}</nowiki> if you release it under
	the ], or <nowiki>{{fairuse}}</nowiki> if you
	claim ], etc.) If you don't know
	what any of this means, just let me know where you got the images
	and I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much, ] (]) 07:46, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
	* Also this image ] uploaded under your old username ] needs a tag. Someone has also placed on that talk page:
	Hi! Thanks for uploading the following images:

	*]
	*]
	*]

	I notice it currently doesn't have an ]. Could
	you add one to let us know its ] status? (You can use <nowiki>{{gfdl}}</nowiki> if you
	release it under the ], <nowiki>{{PD-self}}</nowiki> if you wish
	to release your own work to the public domain, <nowiki>{{fairuse}}</nowiki> if you claim
	], etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just ''let me know
	]'' where you got the images and I'll tag them for you. Thanks
	so much. ] (],
	])]] 22:38, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

	P.S. You can help tag other images at ]. Thanks again.
	I'd also like to echo the offer of assistance, and thanks. --] 09:00, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

	==I voted for you too==

	You can count on me to help in any way I can against the nasty cabal here at The Misplaced Pages. E-mail me if you want. Watch out too for their mischief on The Misplaced Pages Foundation's . Also here: "WikiEN-l Fwd: email from Irismeister
	David Gerard dgerard at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 11:45:26 UTC 2004 ". ] 21:31, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	:Thanks for your support on the "jimbo" page Lir. It's difficult to have a group of people ganging up on you, especially when they're unreasonable, so I appreciate it. ] 15:49, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	Hi, congratulations on the 8% vote! How does that compare to what you were expecting? I'm disappointed by the results, but at least two that I voted for were elected (] and ]).

	There's a VfU you might be interested in, by the way; it regards ]. ]<font id="venus">]</font>]] 02:37, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
	l

	== Criticism ==

	I'm impressed by your <nowiki></nowiki> <!-- i had to do this because of the spam blacklist --> of Misplaced Pages. I admit to being concerned before reading it that you might only have given your opponents more ammunition — sorry — but clearly they don't give you the credit you deserve. This essay is presented quite well.

	I'm frequently disappointed and bemused by the statements of your opponents. The clique argues such a tired, uneducated, one-dimensional viewpoint.... I'm not altogether surprised that ] would make the hyprocritical comments you quote, but "don't worry about making common sense policy... just do things" is astounding coming from someone who can't understand '']''. ]<font id="venus">]</font> 23:04, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	Would I be correct in saying everything on <nowiki>http://www.kapitalism.net/</nowiki> belongs to you? ]<font id="venus">]</font> 07:21, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	== Morons ==

	:'''Quoth:''' ''...Misplaced Pages has been overrun by a bunch of morons. I used to care -- now I don't...''
	Sometimes I have to wonder: If you have such issues with Misplaced Pages, why do you spend so much time and effort with it? I'm not saying that you should leave, but you must be one sucker for punishment. If I got that annoyed, I'd go on a very long WikiVacation. {{User:RM/sig}} 05:02, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)
	::I can't understand why people say things like that. It's obvious that some people see people being discriminated against and try to oppose it. ] 17:31, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	==Lirpedia==
	Are you going to start a ] article on Wiki? There is a precedent for starting one, as we have an article on ], Fred Bauder's encyclopedia. ] 05:29, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	Maybe someone else will start it. Good luck with the project. BTW, I like the "Copycommunism" idea. ] 07:03, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	== Zain (author of criticism of wikipedia) ==

	Hi,
	I added your link as an external link but all this is about finding the problem. I have another article which is dedicated to finding solutions of the problems. It is ] currently a stub. But with great potential. In addition I will like to tell you about wikinfo.org another wiki which allows "POV" by allowing different articles on same thing using different opinions.

	] 15:26, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	==Arbitration committee decision==
	The Arbitration committee has reached a verdict in ]. You are to be banned for one year and subject to a standing order. ] 16:18, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

	===A year in Siberia===

	Dissent will not be permitted.] 04:01, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

	:This isn't about dissent, this is about a long-term and intractable problem user. --] \| ] 22:41, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

	::Can Banned user edit his user page or any other page? ] 21:56, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

	:::No. ] 22:18, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

	== New Mathematics Wikiportal ==

	I noticed you've done some work on Mathematics articles. I wanted to point out to you the new ]- more specifically, to the ] page. I'm looking for any math-related stubs or non-existant articles that you would like to see on Misplaced Pages. Additionally, I wondered if you'd be willing to help out on some of the Collaboration of the Week pages.

	I encourage you to vote on the current Collaboration of the Week, because I'm very interested in which articles you think need to be written or added to, and because I understand that I cannot do the enormous amount of work required on some of the Math stubs alone. I'm asking for your help, and also your critiques on the way the portal is set up.

	Please direct all comments to ] ], or ] Thanks a lot for your support! ] 02:54, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

	== Just a question... ==
	Talk about Lir, not to them:<br/>How do we know that these "ban timer reset" edits aren't just someone who hates Lir trying to get him in more trouble? {{User:Oven Fresh/sig}} 23:15, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

	:Are we sure these edits are actually Lir? {{User:Oven Fresh/sig}} 17:11, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
	::The IP edits come from a Qwest IP in Iowa, which is the IP Lir usually edits from. ] 02:35, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

	==Latest extension==

	Edit can be shown to be Lir. The IP resolves to University of Northern Iowa. Yes, this does mean that I use the logic "Anonymous troll + Iowa = Lir." ] 22:49, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

	== Lir ==

	Who is Lir? Why has he been banned?

	:He was naughty. ]] 01:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

	== Who is Lir? ==

	Can someone tell me (] ( ] \| ] \| ] )) who Lir is and quite why being accused of being Lir is such an enormous crime?

	P.s. I already know that Lir is from Iowa, and has been banned for winding up ].

	] ( ] \| ] \| ] ) 01:02, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

	:Lir trolled this site for a long, long time. He was guilty of just about every type of bad behavior you can imagine. And by the way, ] was one of his sockpuppets. ] 01:03, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

	::I noticed that when Mel Etitis first accused me of being Lir. But I wasn't sure why Lir was so offensive to Mel Etitis. ] ( ] \| ] \| ] ) 01:04, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

	:::You might want to read (in chronological order from oldest to newest):
	*]
	*]
	*]
	:::That should give you some idea of why he was kicked. ] 01:06, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

	== Welcome Back ==

	], Happy editing :) ! --]. <small>—Preceding ] was added at 05:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Keep in mind that a 1 year block can: 1. Make him so impatient that he'll vandalize every page, or 2. Make him so bored that he'll never edit again. —]]<sup>]]</sup><small>@12/16/2007 22:52</small>

	==Fair use rationale for Image:Mehter-2.ogg==
	]
	Thanks for uploading ''']'''. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under ] but there is no ] as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the ], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

	Please go to ] and edit it to include a ].

	If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale --> ] 17:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

	== Clearing user page reverted ==
	I have reverted User:Calton who had removed all content from Lir's user page with the edit summary: ''Soapboxing''. __] (]) 08:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

	:I notice that user:Calton insists on enforcing his purge, so what comes of that issue we will just have to see. However, I have restored my entry here on this user talk page which was also removed by Calton. __] (]) 17:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

	::I restored the notice you carelessly blanked, Meco. It's up to you to add your message properly, not mine. --] \| ] 14:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

	==Reality check==
	Since you've stated explicitly you're not here to edit:

	From ]:
	:''Your userpage is for anything that is compatible with the Misplaced Pages project. '''It is a mistake to think of it as a homepage as ].''' '''' Instead, think of it as a way of organizing the work that you are doing on the articles in Misplaced Pages, and also a way of helping other editors to understand with whom they are working.''

	:Note the word "editor", not "user".

	From ]:

	:''Your user page is not a personal homepage, nor is it a ]. More importantly, your user page is '''not yours.''' It is a part of Misplaced Pages, and exists to make collaboration among Wikipedians easier, not for self-promotion.''

	From ]:

	:''Misplaced Pages is not a social network such as ] or ]. You may not host your own ], ], or ] at Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages pages are not:''

	::'''''Personal web pages.''' ] have their own ], but they may be used only to present information relevant to working on the encyclopedia. If you are looking to make a personal webpage or ] or to post your resume, please make use of one of the many free providers on the Internet or any hosting included with your Internet account. The focus of user pages ''should not'' be ], but rather providing a foundation for effective ]. ] that refer to Misplaced Pages in some way may be created in an appropriate ], however.''

	Any questions?

	P.S.: That word you used, "vandalize"? It does not mean what you think it means. --] \| ] 14:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

	Reality check 2:<br>
	''You are not on the arbitration committee.''

	Nor am I a member of the ] or ] -- both facts of which are as equally relevant as your above statement, since the issue is your ''prime facie'' violation of the various User Page guidelines and policies listed above and not whatever group I am a member of.

	''Please pursue this matter with the mediation committee.''

	Which, as I've pointed out, is what you should be doing instead of trying to hijack Misplaced Pages to be your billboard. Got a problem? Take it up with them. --] \| ] 14:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

	''Quite frankly, you must be a very strange individual to want to waste so much of your time going around "tagging 1,500 of so-called user pages for oblivion". Wow, just imagine what else you could have done with that time; collecting lint would seem more profitable. In any case, you are clearly over-stepping your authority and delving into blatant censorship. I suggest you find a new hobby.''

	Quite amusing, coming from someone who apparently wasted his time edit-warring, creating abusive sockpuppets, and now wastes it writing diatribes he expects to be freely hosted by the target. Perhaps you ought to take up a hobby yourself: voavbulary expansion woeld be a start, so I suggest you locate a dictionary and look up "vandalism" and "censorship", as these both appear to be terms which are not well-understood by yourself. --] \| ] 14:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

	''Um, well, I disagree with you''

	Oh, well, that changes everything, dunnit, as everyone knows that ] overrides all other policies and guidelines. --] \| ] 14:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


	''Well, as long as I'm not the one who wastes their life on Misplaced Pages doing trivial trite things; uh, I just pity you.''

	Except that, you know, that's exactly what you're doing -- subtrivially petty things, even. The phrase "]" comes to mind.

	But if want to further your complaints about the Great Evil That is Misplaced Pages and Other ], you may wish to go ]. --] \| ] 14:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

	''I'll agree, wasting time here is trivial, and wasting time arguing with you about my user page is exceedingly trivial...''

	:And yet you persist; funny, that.

	''...but yet, I'm wasting my time on one user page, whereas you have wasted your time on 1500. Wow. That's special, let me find you a barnstar.''

	:Yeah, you waited three years just for the chance to waste your time -- and now that it's blanked, "wasted" is a fairly literal statement -- on that one page. I'd say that's pretty special, too. --] \| ] 15:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

	''Lol, you can say I waste my time all I want... and all I think is "Wow, this guy has done the same thing on 1500 other pages." LOOOOL''

	:Given your demonstrated lack of self-awareness, that's not the insult you seem to think it is. --] \| ] 15:12, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

	==Your recent edits==
	Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to ] and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you should ] by typing four ]s ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button ] located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you!<!-- Template:Tilde --> --] (]) 14:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

	==User Page==
	Don't you think you should make use of the mediation committee before taking unilateral action? ] (])
	* Mediation is only for controversial actions. That wasn't one. <b>]</b> 14:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
	:* If you hadn't persisted in restoring a screed full of personal attacks and incivilities, then it wouldn't have been necessary. I would have thought someone with as much knowledge of Misplaced Pages as you would have been clear about that. <b>]</b> 14:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

	:::The reason I reverted Calton's clearing of Lir's user page is not that I condone posting a "screen full of personal attacks and incivilities", on the contrary, I thought Lir's criticism was well within the freedom of expression provisions which Misplaced Pages aligns itself to. I was wrong, as the ] resolution of my complaint against Calton shows. __] (]) 15:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
	::* The petty bureaucrats bit is incivil but doesn't mention anyone in particular; if it was all like that I'd have thought it unexceptionable. Unfortunately, I am also fairly sure that "they are pathetic, immature, immoral, and vindicatively narrow-minded partisan trolls" places both feet well over the NPA line. If you'd like to rewrite it without anything that crosses that line - on a subpage of here, perhaps - I'd be glad to replace it. <b>]</b> 15:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
	:::*I agree that the use of invectives is unnecessary. I guess I favour giving individuals greater leeway than what the consensus is ready to tolerate. That said, I should think that using a tempered language also makes the receptive and sympathetic audience a great deal larger. __] (]) 15:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
	*How about "piteous, imperfect, unethical, biased, and rather reactionary whiz-kids"? Or would I have to re-write the entire thing in such a way that it contains no criticism of Misplaced Pages whatsoever, because you are too "unethical" to handle criticism? ] (])
	:* While I think it's somewhat pointless, you can write what you wish, as long as it doesn't attack obviously identifiable people or groups of people. Personally I quite welcome criticism, as long as it's constructive. <b>]</b> 18:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
	* I have unprotected it. Should you abuse it again though, I will do the same, and I will block you. Your choice. <b>]</b> 06:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

	==Request for mediation not accepted==
	{\| class="messagebox" style="width:90%"
	\|-
	\|]
	\|A ] to which you were are a party was ] and has been delisted.<br>You can find more information on the case subpage, ].</center><br>
	::''For the Mediation Committee,'' <font face="Verdana">]]</font> 17:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
	\|}
	<small><center>This message delivered by ], an automated bot account ] by the ] to perform case management.<br>If you have questions about this bot, please ].</small></center>

	== Lotsa luck with ] ==

	Hi--I've already filed a complaint about ]'s nasty, gratuitous stalking , which has been roundly ignored. Seems there is a somewhat hypocritical double standard with respect to this guy, for reasons I won't even waste a neuron firing to speculate about. I've been blocked twice for protesting abuse, anti-Semitism, racism, and personal attacks, while some seem to have privileged status to crap all over fellow editors with impunity. Go figger. Feel free to file a complaint, but be forewarned that if you even raise your voice, you'll face being blocked. ] (]) 19:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
	:Lulzz--didn't even notice that. Sure, go ahead and restore my no doubt incendiary comments to my user page. Thanks in advance, ] (]) 20:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
	::Sssssh!! don't say "Booooodles" out loud! I'm actually not sure if ] is an admin, or if he plays one on TV, but who knows. ] (]) 20:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
	::::''which has been roundly ignored'' - For good reason. And you've been blocked, Boodles, frankly, for behaving obnoxiously and not knowing when to quit when you were warned. As you have clearly not assimilated this fact, I can clearly envision where this slippery slope is leading to. Maybe you can talk another ''SF Weekly'' reporter to take up your crusade when that happens. --] \| ] 05:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

	== Calton ==

	Please feel free to show me where Calton names individual editors on his userpage, and I will certainly consider redacting it. Who knows, perhaps he means me, as I have a WR account myself? <b>]</b> 20:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
	:I did, a bit earlier, remove a ] , where he denigrates a real life person. ] (]) 20:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

	::And I have restored it: running out of people to stalk, Boodly? How much longer do you think your next block will be for? --] \| ] 05:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

	Um, the "Jimbo, Jtdirl, and Larry" bit might've been the problem. <b>]</b> 00:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

	Really? Shall we try again? "by the likes of Jimbo, Jtdirl, and Larry, all of whom have engaged in similar behavior -- I therefore assert ... that subsequently they have waged an incessantly one-sided and unjust campaign to discredit and harass me (both at Misplaced Pages, other internet sites, and in real-life), because (quite simply) they are pathetic, immature, immoral, and vindicatively narrow-minded partisan trolls". Actually, let's not bother. You know, I know. Don't bother replying. I get bored easily. <b>]</b> 00:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

	== Filing Abuse Complaint against Calton ==

	I understand that Calton has been harassing you, along with a number of other users. I would like to file a joint complaint with the arbitration committee against him, as he is clearly abusing other users and repeatedly violating the rule against personal attacks. Please join me in this important effort to help clean up wikipedia. ] (]) <small>—Preceding ] was added at 19:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	:I'm not familiar with this procedure. Where can this complaint be found? Is it similar to ] about his personal attacks? ] (]) 23:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

	::The rule "birds of a feather flock together" seems to be in force. I've never quite understood why axe-grinders and stalkers think that banding together gives them some kind of credibility, as the more applicable rule is, "Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas." --] \| ] 05:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

	:] Calton please be ] and refrain from ] me and making anymore accusations that I am an axe-grinder or stalker who lacks credibility and who lies down with dogs and gets up with fleas. This is your . Do not continue this abusive behavior or I will report you to the Misplaced Pages administration. ] (]) 05:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

	== Thank you ==

	I appreciate that. I'm not going to worry about it yet, but if it continues, I may do something about it. I noticed you and some other users are filing a complaint; if you would like, I would have no problem helping you guys. --] 04:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

	==My User Page==
	''Please remove the personal attack "the various trolls, spammers, quacks, greedheads, and crackpots -- and their enablers -- who hang out at ED and WR" from your user page. You should not be soapboxing or making such inflammatory comments''

	:Nope. If you have an actual problem -- as opposed to mere foot-stamping spite -- take it up with a higher authority. Oh, wait, you already did. Didn't work out, did it? --] \| ] 05:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

	Hi Lir! wNANA G ON A ADATE WIF Me? omgz lollulz! HUGGLE-cakes! ] (])

	OK sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ] (])

	== Battle of Stalingrad rewrite ==

	Hi Lir,

	Please note that there are several editors working on various aspects of the Eastern Front (1941-45) coverage, and we try to work together despite differences.

	In regards to your points:
	*I'm going to rewrite this entire article as I quite probably know more about the subject than you do. (assumption)

	*If you object to a specific edit, I suggest you talk to me about it. (talk to everyone on talk page about it)

	*I don't mean to be rude, but collaborative writing requires that someone be temporarily given a little freedom to operate without constant interference. (agreed)

	*I have about 20 books on the subject sitting right here, along with access to JSTOR, and so I expect anyone arguing with me to be able to cite their sources.(great idea)

	*I removed a citation that 65% of Army Group Centre had not been involved in the winter fighting of 1941-42 from the background, its really not relevant unless you want to start a separate section specifically on the historiographical debate over whether a central offensive should have been launched. '''I just re-added this as a footnote.'''

	::This is a confusion based on the misunderstanding of the roles of various Army Groups as intended by the OKH before Stalingrad became a focus for Hitler. It is also a misunderstanding of what translired over the long period the "Battle of Stalingrad" tries to portray. No doubt you are aware the operation is actually seeking to describe two separate planning entities, the ] and the ] by Soviet sources. This is because it had several operational components to it, namely:
	:::]
	::::] - operational withdrawals
	::::] - operational delaying
	:::::] - tactical engagements in the city
	:::]
	::::] - currently ]
	::::]
	::::] - currently ]
	::::]

	::It is my intention to produce articles for each of the operations. As far as I'm concerned the vast majority of English sources focus on the Battle for, or in Stalingrad, that is the tactical and arguably most intense phase of the operations. The larger context of the place of Stalingrad in the OKH original strategic planning, one to breach the Volga line and the other to reach Baku, are also not made particularly clear as factors that influenced development of planning in and around Stalingrad for both sides, hence the citation that 65% of Army Group Centre had not been involved in the winter fighting of 1941-42.

	*The beginning does not need to mention Tsaritsyn, how is that important?
	::Hitler seems to have had a hate not only of all things Soviet, but any mention of the past Imperial glory of Russia. Tsaritsyn of course reminded him of the Russian Tsars even if that was not the origin of the name. When it was explained to Hitler that it is a Tartar name, he decided that it must be destroyed to stop the "Asian hordes". One can say that the name in any permutation bode only something bad from his POV ;o)

	*There is no 'official' start date for this battle. The one you have been using here, August 21, is significant only in that this is the date that Kalatch was seized. August 23 might be a better date to use as the 'start', although one could easily push this back to the main thrusts of September, or advance it forward to the actual orders to seize Stalingrad which were issued in July, and you could arguably even date the battle's beginings to June, since all of Operation Blue is generally considered part of this engagement. Therefore, 'Summer 1942', seems to be the most accurate date to use.
	::The Soviet start date for the defensive withdrawals on the far approaches tot he city are dated 17.07.1942.

	*A quarter-million Axis troops wound up in the Soviet POW camps, I don't know where your figure of 110'000 came, but these figures vary greatly depending on how you count them, and who exactly you are counting.
	::I think some editors prefer to count only the German troops, and only those in the final surrender in the immediate proximity of Stalingrad and not as a result of all the operations. Moreover I have decided that some sources seemingly only cite POWs belonging to units and formations of the 6th Army only.

	*I deleted a citation about anyone strong enough to hold a gun being sent out to war, that is obviously a misapplied/exaggerated/somewhat irrelevant quote.
	::Yes, I must have missed that during my cursory preliminary reading. However a large number of GULag prisoners were sent to the 62nd Army (Soviet Union), and not a few of these were only barely physically capable of serving.

	:::Other editors agree that we need better and more consistent maps for the Eastern Front project. Have a look here http://maps.poehali.org/en/catalogue/ I will propose we use these with edited graphics as required. The advantage is that they are available in different scales, and once modified become non-copyright original works of the editor (I think).--] (]) ♠<font color="#BB0000">♥</font><font color="#BB0000">♦</font>♣ 14:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

	:::Yes, I agree with your replies; was just clarifying.
	:::Can you be a bit more specific with your intentions for the article?
	:::Ideally I would suggest to rename it ] which is grammatically correct for a battle (i.e. a tactical combat) taking place for procession of the city only, retaining a commonly used English name, and create the other operational articles within the scope of the Battle for Stalingrad <u>category</u> (since few search by category). It seems to me there is enough material for that number of articles, and I think each deserves a greater article size, but your plans in terms of time and commitment may not be able to accommodate such an ambitious undertaking. Cheers--] (]) ♠<font color="#BB0000">♥</font><font color="#BB0000">♦</font>♣ 02:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

	== Eastern Front article structure ==

	You probably have your own idea of what an article should look like, but had developed a structure guideline to keep the articles consistent, and as a way to prevent editors being repetitive and help them to focus on specific parts of the article. Please feel free to offer your comments.

	*‘’’Introductory briefing’’’ (unnamed) – a short, one paragraph of no more then seven average length sentences, description of the article addressing the question
	*when - date of event
	*where - location of event (from general to specific, i.e. Europe -> Bavaria -> Munich)
	*who - event participants
	*why - why did the event occur
	*larger context - "The battle for Stalingrad occured because..."
	*significance - "The significance of the battle of Stalingrad in its location, symbolism, and ..."
	*outcome - "The battle for Stalingrad resulted in..."
	Using ] would be helpful here.

	+Contents (here)
	*Role in the conflict – describes role of the event in the larger conflict. A war also has a context in a larger conflict since it usually evolves from non-armed forms of conflict such as social, cultural, political and economic conflicts.

	**Campaign situation – this describes the event in terms of a war's theatre campaign.
	**Strategic situation (as required) – this describes the event in terms of the campaign where an operation is the event
	**Operation situation (as required) – this describes the event in terms of the operation where a battle is the event
	**Battle situation (as required) – this describes the event in terms of the battle where an event describes a part of a tactical battle

	*Decision making – after assessment of the situation comes the decision-making process that seeks to change the existing situation through securing of initiative by offensive action.

	**Goal of the operation – to change the situation one needs a situational change goal
	**Objective of the battle – at the tactical level the goal is called an objective
	**Side A intelligence – the first step is to gather understanding by the attacked (A) of the defender’s (D) capacity to resist
	**Side D intelligence – usually anyone suspicious of an attack will also gather intelligence on the likelihood of an impending attack

	*Planning – after the intelligence is gathered, planning starts

	**Side A – description of planning should begin with a) organisational description, b) logistic arrangements, c) personnel availability and abilities, and d) technology to be used.
	***Forces involved – organisation of forces and their structural description (in modern times described as tables of equipment of organisation and equipment) need to be given
	**Side D
	***Forces involved

	*Description of the Campaign/Strategic operation/operation/battle – this is the core part of the article. All military events have phased sequence that can be divided into:

	**Initial attack – describes initial execution of the plan
	**Progress of the offensive – describes success or failure of the plan
	**Decisive action – describes the instance when the plan has the greatest chance of success or failure, or the attempt to correct the divergence from the plan
	**Final commitment – any attempts to secure success or prevent failure of the plan
	**Outcomes – comparison of end result with the planned result of the event plan
	**Statistics - personnel and equipemtn in the engagement, losses, etc.
	*Consequences – the impact of the outcomes on events that follow, but which are not part of the above-described plan

	**Immediate effects – immediate effects that include changes in a) organisational description, b) logistic arrangements, c) personnel availability and abilities, and d) technology to be used.
	**Effects on future planning – describe effects on the planning in the larger scope of events

	*Myths – often popular rendition or beliefs about the event that are either partly or completely false, or presented for the purpose of propaganda
	*Memorials – a means of post event commemoration of the event
	*Popular culture – depiction of the event in popular culture and media
	*References – page reference in an authoritative source used to research the article content
	*Footnotes – explanatory notes for points made in the article
	*Bibliography – sources used for the compilation of research on the article
	*See also – other Misplaced Pages articles related to the event
	*Online resources – other online sites that relate to the event or its larger context
	*Further reading – other sources not used for the research of the article but recommended to the reader

	PS. If you need help with Russian sources (since you don't seem to need them with English sources) please feel free to ask me.

	Cheers--] (]) ♠<font color="#BB0000">♥</font><font color="#BB0000">♦</font>♣ 03:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

	== Blocked again ==

	I am reblocking you because you appear to have resumed trolling . I hope you at ''least'' feel lousy for having betrayed ]'s trust in your willingness to contribute constructively. — ] <sup>]</sup> 04:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:28, 14 October 2024

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Lir (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I haven't broken a single rule, and I'm being banned by people who hold personal grudges against me. Several Wikipedians have questioned the validity of this ban, so there is clearly not consensus, and meanwhile those banning me have utterly ignored the entire dispute resolution process; in addition, they have banned me from IRC, the mailing list, and are censoring my user_talk page so as to prevent me from having any chance of ever appealing this. All I want is a fair trial before the arbitration committee, where the specific evidence against me is spelled out, and I am given a chance to present my side of the story.

Decline reason:

arbcom-l (at) lists (dot) wikimedia.org Doc 19:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

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