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|action1date=17:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC) |
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{{afd-merged-from|Yvonne Calment|Yvonne Calment|10 February 2019}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Calment, Jeanne|1= |
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{{WikiProject France|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Longevity|importance=Top}} |
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{{Press |
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| subject = article |
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| author = Eli Rosenberg |
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| title = The world's oldest person record stood for decades. Then came a Russian conspiracy theory |
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| org = '']'' |
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| url = https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/01/12/how-madame-calment-worlds-oldest-person-became-fuel-russian-conspiracy-theory/ |
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| date = January 12, 2019 |
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{{Top 25 Report|June 16, 2013}} |
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==Photos== |
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{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis |
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Can someone add a better photo than the one we currently have? Also, with Jeanne being the oldest verified human ever, wouldn't it be a good idea to show her at various life stages (i.e., age 20, 40, 112, etc) |
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| archiveprefix=Talk:Jeanne Calment/Archive |
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→ ] {<font face="arial, helvetica" size="0"><sup>]</sup></font><font face="arial, helvetica">ł</font><font face="arial, helvetica" size="0"><sub>]</sub></font>} 19:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC) |
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: I second this request. -- ] (]) 04:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC) |
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:: I can't find any copyright/licensing information on these photos, so I'm not going to add any of them to Misplaced Pages, but http://www.grg.org/JCalmentGallery.htm has several photos, ranging from 20 years old to 122. — ]<b>]</b> 01:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC) |
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==''Le bon Dieu''== |
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I wonder, is "I have been forgotten by a good God" a mistranslation of ''le bon Dieu'', which just means "God" in French? — ] 22:47, 2004 Mar 7 (UTC) |
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:You are correct, the full quote is "J'ai été oubliée par le Bon Dieu." -- ]] 23:18, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC) |
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For those who don't think "good God" makes sense, they don't know Jeanne Calment. She was a joker; she was joking that God had forgotten to come get her, so she had more time here on this earth (mischievous). |
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It's "I have been forgotten by the Good God" ] 19:50, 30 April 2006 (UTC) |
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First, the original translation came directly from the Jeanne Calment book by Jean-Marie Robine. It was written by French people, I would suppose they knew what they were saying. For you to presume to know more than the people who were with Jeanne Calment for 7+ years is the height of presumption. Also, calling a difference of opinion 'vandalism' smacks of personal attack.→ ] {<font face="arial, helvetica" size="0"><sup>]</sup></font><font face="arial, helvetica">ł</font><font face="arial, helvetica" size="0"><sub>]</sub></font>} 01:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC) |
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:Still, "le Bon Dieu" is a regular expression, used as "God", as in "Il faut prier au Bon Dieu". |
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:"'''un''' Bon Dieu" would translate to "'''A''' good God", whereas "'''le''' Bon Dieu" is "('''the''' Good) God", as ] stated.-- ] 21:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC) |
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In English we say the Good Lord rather than the good God. {{unsigned|172.142.69.184}} |
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---- |
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I can see what is meant by "reliably reported", but the claim of ''the oldest'' person in the world sounds a little to confident, since no one knows for sure in a world of billions of people. --] |
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:Well, damn, she was 122. I think it's safe to say. ] 19:01, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC) |
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I like "confirmed" better than "reliably reported." "Reported" indicates second-hand "reports"--that is, we're believing something because someone reliable "vouched" for it. But that is not the case here. The documents for Jeanne Calment have been clearly listed and are available to researchers. |
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Also, considering that we have the "world's oldest person" currently at 114 years old, age 122 is in fact a very tough record to break--when we're talking about real people, not false and exaggerated claims which never can be proven and often falter under scrutiny. This is not to say that an age above 122 has "never" occurred but Jeanne Calment is the bar, the standard. Like a unified heavyweight crown, virtually all scientific and popular (i.e. Guinness Book) sources agree, something that can't be said for the "oldest man ever" Shigechiyo Izumi. |
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Statistics show that only 5% of people who celebrate their 90th birthday reach age 100. Of those who reach 100, only 1 in 1000 will reach 110. And of those who reach 110, only 1 in 5000 are expected to reach age 120. So we can say that even a person on their 100th birthday, given the present mortality rates in the most advanced countries, can expect a 1 in 5 million chance to live to age 120. And Jeanne Calment was 122. Ironically, she may have been a genetic mutant, resulting from the inbreeding of the Calment family line--a line which died out with her. |
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== To the "no one knows for sure" man == |
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Well, no one knows anything for sure, do they? Did the Wright brothers really invent the airplane? No. Did Columbus really discover America? No. |
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As for Jeanne Calment, I don't think you realize that it's "pretty damn certain." Consider that only 5% of 90-year-olds reach age 100; only 0.10% of 100-year-olds reach 110. Of those who reach 110, it is expected that 1 in 5,000 will reach 120. And yet Jeanne Calment was 122, and the best-proven case of all time. |
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So, we have her more than 3 years ahead of any other case, with the best proof, and the chances of it happening again for year very slim any time soon (1 in 10 billion, some estimate, which is greater than the world population currently). |
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Ok, so if we have a 114-year-old world's oldest person, we're not really sure, and we can never be 100% sure about "all-time" either, but why apply standards higher than those applied to other data? |
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I don't think anyone is disputing the claim that she lived to 122, but rather, that someone else has lived past the age of 122. I've heard of reports of people in africa who have lived past 140 but don't have papers to prove it since no one in Africa made birth certificates 140 years ago, and while I sincerely doubt the truth of these anecdotes, it is entirely possible that someone has lived past 122 and it is simply undocumented. |
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:Well, until a such case is documented, Jeanne Calment will still hold the title as World's Oldest Ever Person. -- ] ] 02:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC) |
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::All this is essentially worthless semantic debate and would be OR if included. That's never stopped me before. It is safe to say that the oldest living person ''now'' is probably the oldest living person ever (unless you are a Biblical literalist, in which case fantasy rules and you can believe whatever you'd like). The average life-span in an industrialized nation now is somewhat higher than double that of "natural" lifestyles (pre-modern, let's say 16th century and previous, perhaps earlier). That means that the chances of someone around 1000 AD living to 90 would be similar to the chances of someone today living to 120 (again, shooting from the hip). By that token, the chances of someone living to 122 then would be exponentially tiny--like really, astronomically tiny. Like "a thousand times the number of people who have ever lived on the planet... to one" tiny. By that same line of reasoning, the chances are excellent that anyone living in a region that would not have birth certificates, a census, and so on, is also going to be living in a region where the average life-span isn't much better than it was a thousand years ago (40-60, at most). Ever seen a picture of the wizened, weathered aboriginal man? He might be younger than you (even as you're still paying off student loans). So even though the majority of the world's population might live out of sight from Guinness and such, environmental and lifestyle factors are going to weigh heavily against their living to 90 or 100, much less 122. Really heavily. ] 17:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC) |
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::: Actually, even in the "Dark Ages" there were pretty well documented people over 100. Though I know no such early case of a person 110+, but the fact there were centenarians suggest longevity was always present. The AVERAGE age grows, but the longest possible lifespan remains always about the same - even in the stone age people could live up to 70-80 if not eaten by animals or died of some disease. around 70 seems to be human's natural lifespan, reachable even without modern progress. So it is entirely possible someone back then reached 110+, just the probability is much less then to reach 110+ today (because of the lower average lifespan earlier).--] 23:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
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== En viager? == |
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What does 'en viager' mean? Is this the 'reverse mortgage' agreement described in the next sentence? This should be clarified - and perhaps a wikipedia page should be started that explains what this means. |
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http://www.sykesanderson.com/articles/french_en_viager.asp describes it well. someone who is more familiar about this should start a wikipedia page on it. (unsigned comment) |
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::That link is dead. ] 03:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC) |
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:::An apartment "en viagier" is a deal between two persons. One of them (usually much younger) agrees to pay the equivalent of the rent of an apartment/house of someone who continues to live there. In return, the person agrees to give the apartment or house to the person who paid him/her at his/her death. |
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This is a common way for elderly people (usually with small retirement incomes) to get money and improve his/her living, and this until his/her death. Depending on how much time this takes, one or the other may profit more of the deal. Ironically, here, the older person, Jeanne Calment, died after the younger one. {{unsigned|158.130.68.37}} |
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== "Unlucky deal for Raffray" == |
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"Unlucky deal for Raffray" is rather casual wording for a dictionary. |
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] 01:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:I removed it. --] 20:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC) |
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==Unsourced quotes== |
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Please, note that have been removed due to lack of sourcing. In general, lists of quotes belong on Wikiquote unless they are placed within the context of the article. ] 01:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC) |
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:Actually, those quotes can be found in the sources listed in 'references.'→ ] {<font face="arial, helvetica" size="0"><sup>]</sup></font><font face="arial, helvetica">ł</font><font face="arial, helvetica" size="0"><sub>]</sub></font>} 13:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC) |
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I've read in a newspaper that she died at her 121th birthday. (unsigned comment) |
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:I've reverted this change that ] made to the 'oldest people' article as it's totally unsourced and goes against all other known reliable reports.--] 10:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC) |
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== Titanic? == |
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Maybe I'm way off base with this...but I could SWEAR that I've seen this woman (judging from the pic) in a documentary about the Titanic, aboard which she was supposedly a passenger. As I recall the documentary even noted that it was "before her death in 1997." Can anybody verify this or am I way off? ] 03:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC) |
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Nope, Titanic movie was made/released in 1997, the year she died. On her 122nd birthday, she had almost no public figure and was not allowed outside, as far as I know. ] 14:58, 12 June 2007 (UTC) |
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: As far as I remember, some pictures of her 122nd birthday got into TV. It was AFTER her 122nd birthday when she disappeared from the media.--] 23:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
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== Contradiction == |
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The French version says that she used to smoke until her death. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 00:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> |
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:Ouch: then we definitely have a problem. ] 20:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC) |
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I've removed the smoking bit entirely until a citation is added. --] 01:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
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== How did she die? == |
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The article doesn't say what her exact cause of death was. Does anyone know? And could we get that added to the article? --] 01:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
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:Well: she just died of old age in her sleep, "Android Mouse". ] 19:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC) |
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::One can't die of old age. One always dies of some disease, which has a high probability to occur at the old age, but never of age itself. So it's of interest WHICH disease killed her.--] 23:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
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She died in her nursing home, rather than in a hospital, so, obviously, a doctor didn't give her an official death cause. We may never know what she died of, but she did smoke for 104 years and had a moderately weak heart. She died at 10:45 a.m. ] 14:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC) |
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Ok, thanks for the info. It was probably some form of heart failure then. --] 20:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC) |
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:Or after a long bout of old age. Or is that no longer a medically recognized cause of death? --] 20:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::Death from old age is like death from AIDS or any secondary but nonetheless lethal and clear ultimate cause of death: the proximal cause, the thing that actually killed the person, is always something else. It does not for example appear in the ]. In the case of AIDS the virus itself only affects a small population of cells whose functioning is not immediately necessary for life. A metastatic cancer on the other hand typically directly disrupts so much tissue that it can often be the direct cause of death. A heart failure, stroke or other immediate cause of death of a 122-year-old patient in 1997 would not have been thought to call for an autopsy and listing the cause as old age would generally everywhere be considered sufficient on the ]. ] 05:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:::But why didn't one do an autopsy anyway though, just to be able to learn something from her 122 1/2 years old body: explain this? ] 11:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC) |
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::::I would imagine because her relatives or her will forbade it. ] 07:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::But she definitely had no relatives anymore, and I don't think she wrote a will in my honest opinion. ] 20:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::: That or the common decency of the authorities. A small DNA sample is all that would have been really required for science and I wouldn't be surprised if that was collected before she died. An autopsy to confirm the state of the internal organs of a 122 year old woman who smoked until she was 117 would not be without scientific value but there are other values too. ] 23:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC) |
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== Age at death == |
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According to TV show ], Series 3 Episode 9, ] said that she died aged 125. Who's right? ] 18:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:He's in fact definitely wrong: she honestly died at 122 1/2. ] 20:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC) |
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==Maiden name== |
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What was her maiden name? Although as she married her second cousin, that could've been Calment too. ] 12:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC) |
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I think it was. ] 19:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC) |
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She married her 1st cousin. It couldn't have been on her mother's side. It was on her father's side. And it was her father's brother's son (as a father's sister would have married into another last name). Her middle name is Louise though. And her mother's maiden name is Gilles. I also have her mother's mother's maiden name somehow lost in my memory right now.. I can look that up, but my server is down. ] 17:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC). |
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== A couple of factual errors == |
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:I remember now. Her grandmather on mother's side is Rosa Minaud. ] 20:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC). |
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"At the outbreak of World War I, her husband Fernand, who was 46, was deemed too old to serve in the military." In fact he was under 46 and his military record which is available online from Arles archives show that he was indeed mobilised. The cited source is wrong. |
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"In 1994, the city of Arles inquired about Calment's personal documents, in order to contribute to the city archives. However, reportedly on Calment's instructions, her documents and family photographs were selectively burned by a distant family member" The destruction of her archives was already reported in the 1988 Paris Match interview referenced, so it was not connected to any 1994 inquiry. I realise the statement does not say directly that it was but it has been interpreted that way. |
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==Hour, family, offense== |
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I am not going to edit because I am not sure if these would count as OR. ] (]) 16:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC) |
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At which hour did she was born and at which hour did she died? Anyone knows? |
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Her daughter's son had his father's surname? Which were his surnames? |
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Finally, whoever vandalized the talk page claiming there's a chance she managed to get that old thanks to "the inbreeding of the Calment family"... Learn to read better, her husband was her cousin QUITE removed, not exactly "in breeding"; But it says nothing about her parents sharing some blood relation, if ya want to learn to read better. ] (]) 20:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC) |
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== Birthtime of Jeanne Louise Calment and her deathtime == |
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:Jeanne Calment was born around 7 a.m. and died on a 10:45 a.m., spanning 122 years 164 days ~45 minutes. Don't most children inherit their father's last name? ] (]) 21:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC). |
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Jeanne Louise Calment was born at 7:00 AM (06:00 GMT) on the Second Sunday of Lent, 21 February 1875, and died at 10:45 AM (08:45 GMT) on Monday, 4 August 1997, a Feast of Saint John Vianney. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because the difference of timezones. The standard timezone of Misplaced Pages is GMT, not including DST. |
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::I meant this Jeanne Calment had a daughter with Jeanne Calment's husband's surname yet the son of this duo had the surname of Jeanne Calment's father... Which doesn't sounds correct. Furthermore, the data you give adds like 3 hours to the total (]) 05:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Jeanne Calment's husband was a couson on her father's side, not mother's. ] (]) 18:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC). |
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] (]) 18:01, 8 October 2022 (UTC) |
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: I don't see how any of that is relevant. Please explain. --] (]) 18:22, 8 October 2022 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2023 == |
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== ] == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Jeanne Calment|answered=yes}} |
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Someone should create an article about Watfa Ghanem, a 128-year old Syrian woman, born in 1880. She has long passed the age of ], who reached the longest confirmed lifespan at 122. . <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Under ‘Oldest documented human’, at the end of the first paragraph in the final sentence (‘Calment…manners.’), change ‘van Gogh’ to ‘Van Gogh’. ] (]) 21:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:The name is Dutch and is normally lower case. Following the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style on personal names,], the correct form is “van Gogh” and is always lower case. See also, https://www.britannica.com/biography/Vincent-van-Gogh —] (]) 21:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:You speak <i>as if her age is 128</i>. Do you think this paragraphs: |
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== Source on Jeanne Calment eating daube == |
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:Watfa Al Ghanem gestures as she speaks in her home in the village of Al Sheirat in the Syrian city of Homs on Friday, February 29. Al Ghanem, 128, who married once and has four children, said that she has farmed for more than 100 years. Al Ghanem also explained that her eye injury was caused by an accident with a tree branch. |
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:Is worthy of its own Misplaced Pages article? Looks more like a stub to me. She could be in ] if she isn't, especially if we know when in 1880 she claims to be born. ] (]) 18:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC) |
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Pages 85–92 of Jeanne Calment: from Van Gogh's time to ours, 122 extraordinary years do not mention her enjoying daube. Which book, if any, contains this information? ] (]) 19:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== The skepticism regarding the age == |
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== Smoking verification == |
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This has been a very contentious topic however I feel like its absurd that this is even a debate this is supposed to be a encyclopedia yet here we are devoting an entire section of a article to a conspiracy theory that has absolutely 0 proof of evidence that was debunked by most actual experts in the field also after a year or two people just forgot about it all together because it was just a sensational claim made by someone seeking attention ] (]) 16:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
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I've removed the smoking bit entirely until a citation is added. --] 01:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
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:] would be the relevant policy for this. ] (]) 04:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC) |
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It is said that it was removed, but there is still the comment saying she smoked. I checked the source but it doesn't have any mention of her smoking.{{unsigned|Firesoul2x}} |
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::We dont have to delete the article but at the same time calling it skepticism or controversy makes it seem like the thing was taken seriously by sources which they werent they were published in reliable sources but not because they actually believed the theory but because it was a sensational headline the paragraph already accurately depicts what the soucres say on the issue I am just proposing that the name of the paragraph to be changed so it doesnt mislead people ] (]) 10:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I wish I knew '''why''' gerontologists aren't accepting the theory. (Please include as part of your answer the statement that the reason is '''NOT''' simply because they don't want to ruin a special statement; specifically the statement that Jeanne Calment had the longest lifespan of anyone, and that they're just trying to find good arguments to show that the theory is false rather than simply moving on with it.) ] (]) 11:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::There was never a good argument to begin with just use common sense and its plain that the theory never had a chance first of all the same guy who made the theory also made theory against other supercentenarians second do you even realise howamg people they would have to either trick or involve to get away with an identity switch they would have to fool everyone in Jeanne's hometown and her friends too or are you suggesting they managed to convince an ENTIRE town to be involved in this small petty pension fraud? That's why it was never taken seriously because the whole claim was completely ridiculous ] (]) 11:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Supercentenarian claims are very often fraudulent. Shigechiyo Izumi was recognised for decades as the oldest living human, until it was revealed that he had assumed the identity of his older brother. The unlikelihood of identity swap needs to be weighed up against the even greater unlikelihood of a person being comparatively healthy at 122 years of age. ] (]) 12:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::However, we need more than ]. We need ] from ]. Do you have any? ] (]) 15:49, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*The topic absolutely has to be addressed, but I've cut it substantially per DUE. ]] 03:50, 31 October 2024 (UTC) |
"At the outbreak of World War I, her husband Fernand, who was 46, was deemed too old to serve in the military." In fact he was under 46 and his military record which is available online from Arles archives show that he was indeed mobilised. The cited source is wrong.
"In 1994, the city of Arles inquired about Calment's personal documents, in order to contribute to the city archives. However, reportedly on Calment's instructions, her documents and family photographs were selectively burned by a distant family member" The destruction of her archives was already reported in the 1988 Paris Match interview referenced, so it was not connected to any 1994 inquiry. I realise the statement does not say directly that it was but it has been interpreted that way.
Jeanne Louise Calment was born at 7:00 AM (06:00 GMT) on the Second Sunday of Lent, 21 February 1875, and died at 10:45 AM (08:45 GMT) on Monday, 4 August 1997, a Feast of Saint John Vianney. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because the difference of timezones. The standard timezone of Misplaced Pages is GMT, not including DST.
Under ‘Oldest documented human’, at the end of the first paragraph in the final sentence (‘Calment…manners.’), change ‘van Gogh’ to ‘Van Gogh’. 185.88.53.15 (talk) 21:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Pages 85–92 of Jeanne Calment: from Van Gogh's time to ours, 122 extraordinary years do not mention her enjoying daube. Which book, if any, contains this information? Noobnubcakes (talk) 19:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
This has been a very contentious topic however I feel like its absurd that this is even a debate this is supposed to be a encyclopedia yet here we are devoting an entire section of a article to a conspiracy theory that has absolutely 0 proof of evidence that was debunked by most actual experts in the field also after a year or two people just forgot about it all together because it was just a sensational claim made by someone seeking attention Wwew345t (talk) 16:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
