| Revision as of 08:38, 10 August 2005 editStr1977 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers59,123 edits →Revert 1, to Cornwell Source← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 20:41, 5 December 2024 edit undoJHobson3 (talk | contribs)237 edits →Historical error: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply | ||
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| <!-- Please do not edit this section, unless adding a archive notice. Thank you. --> | |||
| {{controversial}} | |||
| Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. | |||
| {{Article history | |||
| If further archiving is needed, see ]. | |||
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| |action1date=00:02, 27 April 2006 | |||
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| '''Previous discussions:''' | |||
| |action2date=17:25, 10 May 2006 | |||
| *] ] 20:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) | |||
| |action2link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Pope Pius XII/archive1 | |||
| *] ] 21:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) | |||
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| *] ] 21:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) | |||
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| == Religious Question == | |||
| |action3date=23:55, 12 June 2006 | |||
| |action3link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Pope Pius XII/archive2 | |||
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| ''He consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1942.'' | |||
| |action4date=17:04, 28 June 2006 | |||
| |action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Pope Pius XII | |||
| |action4result=promoted | |||
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| What does this mean? ] 03:03, May 25, 2004 (UTC) | |||
| |action5date=20:09, 2 November 2006 | |||
| |action5link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Pope Pius XII/archive1 | |||
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| |maindate=July 3, 2006 | |||
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| This might help: http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/immaculh.html | |||
| |action6date=2016-08-23 | |||
| ] 18:37, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) | |||
| |action6link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Pope Pius XII/archive2 | |||
| |action6result=demoted | |||
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| |otd3date=2014-03-02|otd3oldid=597788616 | |||
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| == Alleged reference == | |||
| {{Blockquote | |||
| == Complaints == | |||
| |text=Pacelli presided as ] over the ] in ], ] in 10–14 October 1934, and in ] in 25–30 May 1938.<ref>Marchione, 2002, p. 22</ref> At this time, ] laws were in the process of being formulated in Hungary. Pacelli made reference to the Jews "whose lips curse and whose hearts reject him even today".<ref>''Christian responses to the Holocaust: moral and ethical issues: Religion, theology, and the Holocaust'', ], p. 92, Syracuse University Press, 2003; {{ISBN|0-8156-3029-8}}</ref><ref>{{cite web}}</ref><ref>{{cite web}}</ref>}} | |||
| Aside the fact that the quote is from what is at least a ternary source (because I assume the quote is faithful), as well as the question whether the pope knew anti-semitic laws were "being formulated" in Hungary at the same time, I don't think that the source proves that that the pope referred to Jews, but it explicitly denies that he made a direct reference, and this much is clear from the quote in the source: | |||
| I changed the sentence next to | |||
| {{Blockquote | |||
| Between the German Concordat's signing in 1933 and 1939, Pope Pius XI made three dozen formal complaints to the Nazi government, all of which in reality drafted by Pacelli. | |||
| |text=Jesus conquers! He who so often was the recipient of the rage of his enemies, he who suffered the persecutions of those of whom he was one, he shall be triumphant in the future as well As opposed to the foes of Jesus, who cried out to his face, "Crucify him!"—we sing him hymns of our loyalty and our love. We act in this fashion, not out of bitterness, not out of a sense of superiority, not out of arrogance toward those whose lips curse him and whose hearts reject him even today}} | |||
| At the very least, the reference in the article should be reformulated to express doubt. I would prefer it to be expressed as an opinion of the author of the tertiary source unless there are others that independently agree. ] (]) 20:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| change: | |||
| ''In Duffy's words, their tone was 'anything but cordial.''' with: ''The strongest condemnetion of Hitler's ideology and ecclesiastical policy was the Encyclical ], issued in 1937'' | |||
| because the text of the Encyclical (much more than a diplomatic complain: it was read in all parishes of Germany) proves that the complains were not cordial at all. The complete text of the Encyclical is strongly against Hitler policy. | |||
| :Cardinal Pacelli was not the Papal Nuncio to Argentina nor to Budapest. He was the Vatican's equivalent to Secretary of State. He was number two to Pope Pius XI whom the Nazis and Communists didn't want to become Pope. That's why they tried to assassinate him. They even tried to assassinate him when he became Pope Pius XII but the Papal security stopped all such attempts. It is dishonest to claim he was a supporter of the Nazis. ] (]) 02:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Relations with Mussolini == | |||
| {{reflist-talk}} | |||
| The bulk of this write up focuses on his relationship with Germany during WWII. What of Mussolini and Italian Fascists? There is only one reference to Mussolini in the article and The Vatican is, after all, surrounded by Italy. Can someone with the knowledge fill this in? --] 14:29, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Birthtime of Pope Pius XII == | ||
| 3:08 AM (02:08 GMT) was a probable birthtime of Pope Pius XII. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because of the differences of timezones. The standard time of Misplaced Pages is GMT, not including DST. | |||
| Sir ] in his ''Friends , Enemies and Sovereigns'' final volume of his autobigraphy , ] notes that as there was no constitution for it being a ] to have assisted ] to power , that consequently ] and ] were acquitted . This presumably means that they could not be charged , but that consideration was given to this charge . | |||
| ] (]) 13:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :You're right. Schacht and Papen were acquitted "as charged". Helping Hitler to power was not a crime tried at Nuremberg and I'm not sure that a law court is the place to deal with such things. However, they were convicted during de-nazification. | |||
| == Historical error == | |||
| However as I have noted for some period here on the WP ] Law clearly states that no cleric , such as were Pacelli and Monsignor ] should have interfered in ] without it expressly being ordered by the Pontiff . The ] or bed-rock ''law'' of the Church , however would further base itself on the clear ] dictum of '''thou shalt not do evil to further good''' found in ''Romans 3,8'' . | |||
| "Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor on 30 January 1933 and sought to gain international respectability and to remove internal opposition by representatives of the church and the Catholic Centre Party. He sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Pacelli, Prelate Ludwig Kaas, the outgoing chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated first drafts of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20 July and ratified on 10 September 1933. Bishop Preysing cautioned against compromise with the new regime, against those who saw the Nazi persecution of the church as an aberration that Hitler would correct." | |||
| :And you refused to tell, what issue of canon law you were referring to, i.e. whether political involvement was prohibited/regulated under the canon law code in force back then. If it was regulated as you state, I guess Kaas had papal permission (that is back in 1919, when he entered politics). Pacelli on the other hand was acting as a representative of the Church, first as nuntius, than as secretary. | |||
| is incorrect on several points. The Associated Press reported in 1933 that "Goebells a minister without portfolio" signed the concordant for Germany. Hitler was not in charge of German government and hadn't even picked his staff yet. President Paul Von Hindenburg was in charge and would only agree to appoint Hitler as Chancellor if Hitler accepted the appointment of Von Papen as Vice Chancellor according to the Associated Press. The Associated Press reported that in 1934 when President Paul Von Hindenburg fell ill and was thought to be on his deathbed, Hitler arrested former Chancellors von schleicher and von Papen among other opponents of the Nazi party. The Associated Press articles of 1934 reported Hitler had von schleicher executed and was preparing to have von Papen executed as well when the President Paul von Hindenburg recovered from his illness and pleaded with Hitler to spare the life of von Papen. In 1934, the Associated Press reported that Hitler spared von Papen's life but put him under house arrest. von Papen remained under house arrest for the duration of the war. von Papen was not acting under Hitler's orders when he approached the Vatican about signing a Concordant. He acted under the authority of President Paul von Hindenburg. As Chancellor, Hitler did not have the authority to negotiate with the Vatican. In 1933, that authority was still in von Hindenburg's jurisdiction. The Concordant was not an endorsement of von Hindenburg nor was it an endorsement of Adolf Hitler. Von Papen remained under house arrest and was not convicted for war crimes at the Nuremberg trials because he was Hitler's prisoner not a participant in the government. | |||
| The inescapable conclusion is that in this case church law, the injunctions of the ], are in advance of ] from both this its inception at the ] Trials and up to its present draft form of pre-international implementation. At least , I assume this to be the case ... | |||
| An interesting side note: In 1933 the Associated Press reported when Hitler was appointed Chancellor by von Hindenburg Albert Eistein resigned his Prussian citizenship and was quoted as stating "the Catholic church was the only organization telling the truth about the Nazis." ] (]) 02:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :yes, but Church law is not penal law, it mostly works "internally", i.e. appealing to the individual conscience. You cannot apply it as penal law unless you want a "tyranny of virtue" à la Robespierre. | |||
| :The AP reported in 1933? Do you have copies of the reports, or full citations other than nebulous dates? ] (]) 19:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| However the second conclusion is that the church, to which von Papen and Kaas adhered , headed at present by ] ,in order to claim the rightful moral leadership which our common understanding of Jesus would like to allow , shall have to institute its own clarification upon this issue . | |||
| :If you think that Hitler didn't take immediate and total charge of the German government in 1933, you're the one guilty of historical error ] (]) 20:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| yes. 1934 not 1935. Sorry about the mix up. I was putting them all in order yesterday by date. Discovered my memory was off by a year. | |||
| {{ctop|Collectively, these are copyright violations, although individually they are not - hence collapsing rather than redacting. ] (]) 00:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)}} | |||
| :The Church (according to faith) acts as representative of Christ. She bases her claims neither on the clarifications you demand, nor on a supposed impeccable status of all her members. | |||
| :Source 1 The Gainesville Sun (GS) Note - Newspaper printing articles day after AP date recorded here. | |||
| :Source 2 The New York Times (NYT) | |||
| As with the Nuremberg trials , the defense that a judge may not try himself or his own case , should not excuse this present ] from this clarification . He shall need to define the case , clarifying the canonical laws which have here , by means of my discussions, determined the automatic nature of the penalty for all those personally involved (],], von Papen and Monsignor Ludwig Kaas ) before then de-sanctifying the remains of the former two (and possibly Kaas) . I have been called impius for asking that the church adhere to its own clear law in this matter. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 7, 1932 Headline: "Von Hindenburg Glad Elections Almost History". | |||
| :The Church is not here to issue condemnations, but if you want clarifications please address your request directly to the Pope and not to Misplaced Pages. I doubt the Pope reads Misplaced Pages. | |||
| Subheading: German President Believes Four Years of Stability Ahead; Expresses Keen Interest In Contest In The United States." | |||
| :Yes it is impious to call for a removal of someone from his grave and you still have to cite canon law for the provision that this must be done (Pope Formsosus will not do). | |||
| "... One of the outstanding results of the voting was that Adolf Hitler's strength dropped from 37.7 percent of the total ballots to 33 percent, and his National Socialist party delegation in the Reichstag was cut from 230 to 195." | |||
| I deny this most strongly and assert that my wish is no more than to bolster a firm conception of international legality . My showing the superiority of the Magisterium over the ] drafting ,proves that I act in complete impartiality .] 12:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) | |||
| "The Communist Reichstag membership jumped from 89 to 100, the Centrists decreased their delegation from 75 to 70, the Nationalists returned 51 against 37 in the old Reichstag, and the Socialists dropped from 133 to 121." | |||
| :I reiterate: Church law is not penal law, it mostly works "internally", i.e. appealing to the individual conscience. You cannot apply it as penal law unless you want a "tyranny of virtue" à la Robespierre. | |||
| :Apart from that, I guess, such a move would be called "fundamentalism" or "interference in the public order" by many people. | |||
| :But I'd applaud any move of any state of bringing legislation more in line with ''natural law''. | |||
| :] 30 June 2005 10:32 (UTC) | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 17, 1932 Headline: "Von Papen And Ministry Quit Post In Berlin" | |||
| YOU say this , but after I have quoted the canonical texts and left their link/provenance (which are now showing under 'canonical' on ] discussion page ). It would appear that on the contrary the church is well equipped to avail of her own procedures in this regard and that the repair of a scandal is indeed legislated for . | |||
| I fear that, again , all your denials of the cited historians are at variance with their historical interpretation . These have been quoted already and are in the archives that you have built . If these archives had not been created the quotations would have been easier for you to have re-read . I shall search now for the year of the insertion of the political bar in canonical law, and if it is in the later modernised law , then it would have been drafted by the self-same ] . I note, sir ,that you are very apt to require such clinching definitions and qualifications, all the while sundering the import and the clarity under the arguments over dates, pages and texts. It would appear ,as I have previously noted , the intention is that of defence . I find this absolutely natural but I have also pointed out to you that faith-led (ie wishful) defence '''should''' realise that the gravity of the matter is such that the greatest danger to the church comes not from admission , but from denial . I regret to note that since you represented in your argumentation hitherto and throughout , an increasingly defensive 'church ' posture , that any tough criticisms or qualifications of that institution became increasingly applicable to yourself as their advocate . As such criticism appears historically and canonically (if not penally) justified , you yourself took what was initially ''purely'' directed towards the institution as personal towards you (see ] ) , even as I slipped into addressing your defence similarly . | |||
| "Chancellor Franz Von Papen, who has directed the German Government for a little less than six months, resigned today taking his whole cabinet out with him in the face of almost unanimous opposition in the new Reichstag. ..." | |||
| In answer to the fundamentalism , for the while , I shall simply note that ,daily ,the necessity for truth (and reconciliation) becomes more urgent and that on the contrary conscience is become and ever was , a central force in social affairs . That I do not and have never simplified this historic affair of complicity down to the penal . To the ecclesiastical , yes , because the ] cannot deny its own precepts and laws . I have merely suggested that the application of such laws could be of interest to the wider world . '''Sir, if it pains you to answer on behalf of your church , let another arise and answer , call to your superior now , as I feel sure you can , and ask that you be relieved''' . Send to these matters the requisite churchman of church law . My intention is to show the truth to the world and to up-end what are effective lies and propaganda . I welcome your ripostes however and especially am glad that you yourself are directing this intercourse towards the first revolution . We have further to advance ,and this will strengthen rather than diminuish the relevance of ] to the events and forces of the present day .] 8 July 2005 07:39 (UTC) | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 19, 1932 Headline: "Hitler Presses For Early Appointment Chancellor Germany" | |||
| ==Present Day Vatican Federal Trial== | |||
| "For the second time in three months, Adolf Hitler, who was a corporal in the World War, applied today to Field Marshal Paul Von Hindenburg, President of Germany, to be made Chancellor of the Reich." | |||
| The suit referred to is being brought by ] through a law firm . | |||
| "This time, in marked contrast to their meeting August 13, Hitler was invited to sit down for an hour and to talk with frank cordiality. As he departed from the president's residence, he was asked to come back for another conference next Tuesday." | |||
| == Request for Comments? == | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 21, 1932 Headline: "Adolf Hitler Gets Mandate Form Cabinet" | |||
| A Request for Comments directed me to this talk page as well as a few other pages. | |||
| Subheading 1: "President Von Hindenburg However, Imposes Certain Restrictions That May Prevent Acceptance New Honors." | |||
| It is not entirely clear to me without going through multiple archives what the original issue was. It does appear that the discussion on this page is getting rather tense. Can we please stay civil and remember the rules of Wikiquette? | |||
| Subheading 2: " Limitations Set" | |||
| ] 14:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Subheading 3: "Must Not Tamper With Reichswehr, Emergency Decrees And Other Safeguards of Law and Order; Nazi Leader Replies." | |||
| == One more request for a summary == | |||
| "After nine years of striving, Adolf Hitler today received a mandate to form a cabinet, but it was under conditions which immediately at least, he could not accept. ..." | |||
| ] appears to be saying that he has tried to present a solidly proven argument that the ] engaged in some sort of conspiracy with ] to defeat ] that in turn resulted in the ], for which the Catholic Church is morally guilty. He has been saying for some time that arbitration is required about the truth. ] appears to have been saying that ] has been engaging in censorship by deleting his statements of sourced fact. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 22, 1932 Headline: "Hitler Delays" | |||
| If this case does go to Misplaced Pages arbitration, then one of the requirements of the Arbitration Committee is that each of the principals should provide a statement, not longer than 500 words, of what their case is. | |||
| "Besieged by two groups of conflicting advisers, Adolf Hitler, leader of the National Socialist, decided today to put off until tomorrow his reply to President Von Hindenburg's reiterated conditional proffer of the chancellorship." | |||
| I have several times asked ] for that summary, in particular with focus to facts that have been deleted, or on POV presented by sourced scholars as POV that has been deleted. I have not yet seen a summary of less than 500 words of what ] thinks is the substance of the censorship. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Photo of Adolf Hitler November 23, 1932 Top Caption: "Rejects Proposals" | |||
| I agree that there are differing points of view as to how moral responsibility for the ] should be distributed. I am asking ] to summarize, in less than 500 words, why he claims that the Catholic Church was guilty of collusion with Hitler. | |||
| Bottom Caption: "Adolf Hitler writes President Paul Von Hindenburg that restrictions placed on proffered chancellorship of Germany are too cramping to insure successful administration of the high office." | |||
| I agree with ] that the arguments for moral complicity by ], the ], and ] should be presented as points of view held by some scholars. I disagree with any claim that there has been proof of moral complicity. A statement as to these points of view should be written. I do not think that it can be written by ], who does not understand the difficult concept of NPOV . Can he at least present a summary of what his case is? If not, can he at least state briefly what the censorship is? | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article of Adolf Hitler November 23, 1932 Headline: "Adolf Hitler Unwilling To Accept Post" | |||
| This is one more request for a summary of less than 500 words, having to do either with how the complicity can be proved, or with other scholars who have presented cases of complicity. | |||
| Subheading 1: "Counter Offer" | |||
| ] 02:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Subheading 2: " Nazi Leader Declares He Cannot Solve German Situation on Purely Parliamentary Basis of Action." | |||
| :You don't agree with me at all : You accuuse me of POV-pushing , or you don't...You wouldnt know whether there has or has not been any proof of moral complicity because you have not read the relevant discourse. If you had you wouldn't ask . I find your attitude one of biased innuendo . You say I cannot understand NPOV but you spend your whole time in this defending biased editing . I have not been removing relevant scholars all the way thru . Listen ...you say I am not capable of doing something-only the most difficult thing history can require, then you order me to do it . I hardly think you have ever displayed good faith towards me , and your back-tracking now is visible . I should like an apology , and I shall consider whether I shall use the WP as organ or not . I think you require this concision because you wish to avail of the case for defensive purposes . I will wait until this is demanded by some more neutral observers, so why don't you get up a vote : should FK be forced to summarize his own sourced argumentation under insult by McClenon and Str1977 , or after an apology for your inuendo of today ? Or before or after a withdrawal of the unjust Rfc against Famekeeper? | |||
| Expected Nazi Tripe Follows | |||
| :As fas as I can see you are trying either to obtain advance info of the real canonical case- for vatican defensive purpose, or else, you are now blustering to cover your inconsistancy with your Rfc accusations . From it being me 'pushing my POV' , it's now FK is a silly man who can't distinguish between POV and NPOV anyway , can't write , but yet must be asked to summarize that which he has spent months of writing trying in good faith to justify . For whom , you ? I don't see that you are neutral at all , McC. I think it may be best to await the arbitrators, I can get my 500 words together at home, so to say . And you ,vaticanitos , can sweat . PS you will find one article's history of massage/censorship at ] , also beside your anti-FK innuendo at ] talk .] 18:45, 5 August 2005 (UTC)] 17:10, 5 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article of Adolf Hitler November 24, 1932 Headline: "Von Hindenburg Withdraws Offer German Chancellorship To Hitler" | |||
| Subheading:"President of Republic Expresses Lack Confidence In Nazi Leader To Control Reichstag; Now Looking for Another Candidate" | |||
| "President Von Hindenburg, who offered to make Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany if he could guarantee the support of the Reichstag, withdrew that offer today and called in leaders of the other parties to consider another candidate." | |||
| "At any rate he could not command that support. The National Socialist party is the largest in the Reichstag but it is far short of a majority and Hitler could not swing the Nationalists or the Bavarian party into line." | |||
| ==Censorship/massage (Pope Pius XII)== | |||
| "He told the president last night he could not control the Reichstag, but he renewed his proposal that Von Hindenburg make him head of a 'presidential' cabinet to rule without consulting the parliament." | |||
| "The president's refusal today made it plain that he has not sufficient confidence in Hitler to place him at the head of a government like that which Franz Von Papen headed, to rule solely with the presidential authority." | |||
| As requested , an example fron just one of many pages of |Str1977 censorship/massage for the vatican , and against right thinking free-speech sources etc. This is not for str to lengthen now, he can do that under his arbitration space . | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article June 25, 1933 Headline: "Bomb Explodes In Vatican City; 4 Injured" | |||
| 29 March : 199.106.94.229 rem's large sections.Only reg'd action by anons 4 hits | |||
| Follow the Associated Press reporting on the joint investigation by the Italian Police and the Papal gendarmerie. It is interesting and determined the target was Cardinal Pacelli. Unexploded bombs were summer of 1931, and February 13, 1932. | |||
| :wasn't me. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article June 30, 1934. Headline: "Nazi Revolution Feared; Hitler Maintains Power After Smashing Coup" | |||
| 0906 20 April: First hit by Str as 24.91.139.250 | |||
| Subheading: "Former Chancellor Von Scheicher Is Killed" | |||
| "In a day of summary punishment for those who challenged his authority--the denouncement of the crisis of recent weeks hastened by the disclosure of immoral orgies indulged in by leaders of his own Nazi storm troops -- the chancellor 'liquidated' leaders of a threefold opposition; the reactionary monarchists, the 'Catholic Action" group, and the left wing storm troopers who plotted his end." | |||
| "Heinrich Klausner, leader of the 'Catholic Action' group was shot to death". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| Again, this wasn't me. (though he's right) | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 1, 1934. Headline: "... To Purge Nazi Party" | |||
| 01.39 4 may. Str rem secret clause, christ dictator=rship, danger to democ'y etc (JPII topicality) | |||
| Paul von Hindenburg gravely ill. Purge begins. von Papen placed under house arrest. | |||
| "When reports of the calling together of physicians reached Berlin the rumor was quickly revived that von Hindenburg had written a 'political will' naming the conservative von Papen as his successor and enjoining the army, always faithful to the president, to help him if necessary". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 2, 1934. Headline: "Eye-Witness Tells Of Execution Of Sixty Rebellious Storm Troopers". This is about SA leadership elimination. | |||
| :Yes, that was me and I can clearly stand by this edit. What I removed was either unsourced, misleading or just plain wrong. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 3, 1934. Headline: "Hitler Moves To Oust Von Papen In Favor Of Wilhelm Goering" | |||
| 01.53 " Str massages , 'not explicit enough' | |||
| Notable quotes from the article: | |||
| "With the dead in Germany's 'blood purge' reaching several hundred, according to a reliable source, Chancellor Adolf Hitler today | |||
| moved to strengthen his hold on the Reich by replacing the conservative, non-Nazi vice-Chancellor Franz Von Papen. It was expected that | |||
| before the end of the day Herman Wilhelm Goering, co-purger with Hitler in the ruthless suppression of 'traitors,' would be elevated to | |||
| the vice-chancellorship." | |||
| "President Von Hindenburg's strong protective hand was thrown around Von Papen after the 86 year old executive had congratulated | |||
| :I agree this change was wrong, as the sentence talked about "fiercely condemned by the press today" and they condemn him for not speaking out. Of course, the truth is different since he did speak out. Hence my mistake. | |||
| Hitler and Goering on their "liquidation" with bullets of conservative and radical rebels against Hitlerism." | |||
| "But when Von Hindenburg spoke Hitler took steps to protect von Papen whose criticism of radical Nazis two weeks ago was the first | |||
| 02.08 " 1) Sts incl Dutch reprisals . 2) rem Chief rabbi conversion , 3) rem 300,000 saved | |||
| public sign of rumblings preceeding the 'bloody Saturday' of suppression." | |||
| "Major Mueldner von Muelhmheim, for many years adjutant to the former Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, was arrested because of his | |||
| :1) I included a historical fact and one that is unquestionably important, what's wrong about that. | |||
| friendship for General Kurt von Schleicher, killed with his wife while 'resisting arrest' Saturday." | |||
| :alleged edits 2) and 3) do not exist | |||
| "The remarkable vitality of Von Hindenburg, hero of the army and the people, was demonstrated forcibly in his actions today." | |||
| "Yesterday his condition was so alarming that a "'major medical council' was called at his estate. Today he was able to walk in this | |||
| garden and to speak vigorously on matters vitally affecting the beloved Germany which he has served in war and peace for more than | |||
| half a century." | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 4, 1934. Headline: "Future Of Germany Is Contained In Decision On Fate Of Von Papen" | |||
| 02.27 " Str rem. dangers Lib Parliamentary Democ'y(JPII Euronews etc) | |||
| SubHeading: | |||
| "Status Is Uncertain" | |||
| "Vice-Chancellor Said Appointed By Chief Executive as Check Against Extremists." | |||
| Notable quotes from the article: | |||
| "Out of a momentous night conference between Chancellor Adolf Hitler and President Paul Von Hindeburg at the latter's country estate, | |||
| Germany looked today for an answer to the big question mark arising from the 'second Nazi revolution'-the political fate of Vice Chancellor | |||
| Franz Von Papen, staunch friend of von Hindenburg." | |||
| "The future of von Papen was acknowledged to be of paramount importance to the nation, and, in turn, the world, for if he remained in the government Hitler would be hindered in his reported scheme for tightening the Nazi reins and if he went out a sweeping cabinet shakeup was forseen." | |||
| "Reliable sources pointed out that under the terms by which Hindenburg accepted the Hitler regime early in 1933, Von Papen was to be the President's confidante and informant, a check and balance." | |||
| :It also mentions that von Papen is a prisoner in his own home, but protected by the regular army. von Hindenburg prevented his removal temporarily, but it would only last until the death of von Hindenburg. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign --><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| {{cbot}} | |||
| :*Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? ] (]) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :No, I did not remove. I remplaced "who cites it as an example of the dangers associated with ] ] ]." with "who cites it as an example of the dangers present even in a ]" - because that's what the late Pope wrote in his book. He says that not only dictators can do wrong, democracies can do wrong too. Democracy is no foolproof safeguard. | |||
| :*:A reputable historian will never call himself a secondary source for events that happened nearly a century ago. ] (]) 21:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :*:Contemporaneous press accounts are either primary sources or secondary sources. A historian's opinion is not a source. ] (]) 19:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :::*That is not correct. The opinions of experts are '''''always''''' considered to be reliable sources, although they should be presented as their opinions. ] (]) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :'''<redacted copyright violations>''' <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| 07.22 Anon only edit on WP rem. Hochluth play as spam | |||
| :Look you need to stop with the ]. You are quoting far too much and we're going into copyright territory here. You are welcome to make specific improvements to the article or to suggest them, but you're playing around far too generally here and introducing wide swaths of facts that are strictly ] for a bio of this Pope. This pertains to one aspect of his reign, albeit major, but we need to keep it in perspective. ] (]) 22:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Wasn't me. Granted I despise the whole work of Hoch'''h'''uth (please learn how to spell!) because of his untruthfulness, his slander, his condoning of assassinations and also dislike his selfrighteousness and his chummy-ness with one ], but I did not remove this. In fact, I think a mentioning of Hochhuth's slanderous play is actually on-topic and not spam, though the play is spam (no not spam, spam can be eaten). | |||
| ::@], I've begun reverting your additions. Please do not add any more copyrighted material to this page. This is a talk page for discussion of article improvement, not a dumping ground for arbitrary data. ] (]) 22:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :You're not getting it. You are '''''not allowed''''' to post copyrighted material '''''anywhere on Misplaced Pages''''', except for '''''short excerpts'''''. Please see ] and ], and stop posting copyright violations. ] (]) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| 08.49 " Str rem. 'farce' of Pius XII bodily remains | |||
| ::Copyright expired on these articles. I was providing excerpts for your convenience. ] (]) 23:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| :Im removed one paragraph that didn't provide any useful information and was written in a gloating, mocking language. No need to gloat over a dead man's corpse, even if you dislike him. | |||
| ] | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3#Pope Pius XII: Illness and death}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 03:23, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| 08.51 " Str rem, Croatia pic | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| ] | |||
| :Because "pictures don't tell the tale" - it was anti-catholic propaganda | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3#Pope Pius XII: illness and death}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 03:25, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| 08.57 " Str rem. link to article | |||
| :yes, dead link | |||
| 09.01 " Str rem Freespeechorg link | |||
| :another dead link | |||
| 22.27 " FK rev 'Christ. Dict.'(prev sourcing Wiesenthal Timeline , not accepted, error:was Humanitas) | |||
| :no unsourced or rather wrongly (!!) sourced to encyclica "Dilectissima nobis", a document relating not to Germany or dictatorship but to the Spanish government and their violation of human rights (religious freedom, property etc) | |||
| 22.28 " FK replaces JPII controv. | |||
| :no, FK did nothing of the kind | |||
| 23.05 " str rem. Christ Dictatorship Encyclical | |||
| :removed wrong things again: unsourced "christian dictatorship" and alleged "countering separation of ...", would have been an euphemism for opression of religious freedom | |||
| 23.07 " Str rem. Centre & policy of Vatican re same , | |||
| :removed unfounded, untrue, unsourced claims about alleged Vatican policies | |||
| 5 May ,Sam Spade highlights Christ Dict (Dilectissima Nobis), Str alludes to yr 1667 | |||
| :no, Sam Spade wikilinks to a yet to be written entry on that document - no allusion to anythin by me (or anyone else - what article are you reading?) | |||
| 01.36 10 may FK repl. 'danger to democ'y-JPII | |||
| :yes, one of the world wide famous "Critics say..." quotes | |||
| 22.58 " Str rem danger controv | |||
| :Removed this because I disputed (and still dispute) that this questions "have re-surfaced becaise of the moves toward canonisation for Pope Pius XII, and recent reference to the Enabling Act in the book" FK obviously thinks otherwise, and hence: | |||
| 23.12 " FK rv | |||
| 01.26 " 11 may Str rv's , moves 2 pics positions | |||
| Yes, no problem with that, or do you? Or do you ?? (and the time is 7.26) | |||
| 10.29 " FK rv's , Anon also rv's pics | |||
| :- it's 11 May by now! | |||
| 23.13 " Str rem. 'Jewish anger'(euronews) | |||
| :as I said the sentence "maybe, but off-topic", since this was about the enabling act and not the holocaust or abortion (and remember this about P12 and not JP2) | |||
| 05.53 " ret,. Croatia link/pic adds J. Cornwell link | |||
| :Revision as of 05:33, 16 May 2005, User: 24.60.129.139 | |||
| :for qualification of the first link see above, the second link is from the same website but it is the same link that has already been included further down | |||
| 22.18 " Str adds POV apparition(POVfaith etc) | |||
| :unneeded disclaimer - some people don't believe in such things and will not after reading this. Also the apparitions are fact, but what they actually are, that's POV. | |||
| 00.56 17? May Str rem. pic PXII in Berlin by rv of positions of the 2 pics | |||
| :Date is the 19 May (why can't you look it uo correctly ?) | |||
| :I moved the Berlin picture to the section that covers his stint as nuncio during which the picture was made. Hence it belongs there (and if you disagree I can only speculate about the motives, it's sme..). And I deleted the redundant second display of the same picture. | |||
| 16.29 19 May Str distracts | |||
| There's no edit at 16.29 - and nothing spectacular near the time. | |||
| 16.32 " Str rem. Humanae Vitae (not FK's) | |||
| :yes, I just straigthened the paragraph - the issue was disobedience to "Birth control" ruling - that's still in there, as it should - not need to shout about this. | |||
| 17.24 ? Anon as before 24.170.40.179 repl. Rabbi conversion, saving of 300, 000 of Jews | |||
| :It's 3 August by now | |||
| :again not me - though the edit is valid - why should it be excluded | |||
| 18.11 31 July Str rv's user DieWiebeRose | |||
| :there's no edit on 31 July | |||
| :] 20:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Repair for Article== | |||
| Uh Have uh repaired the article . uh sourced uh this earlier (see uh posts). If you uh want more Ill put in my summary here uh? ] 10:43, 7 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ===Re-repairing article=== | |||
| Some of the edits have been useful, but some of them have introduced POV. I have added an NPOV tag to the section in question until I can remove unsourced allegations and put sourced allegations as POV. ] 23:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| The following have been removed from the article. ] 01:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ====Moved==== | |||
| A year prior to the ] Cardinal Pacelli had been transmitting the wish of the pontiff for Adolf Hitler to assume control of Germany , as bulwark against atheistic ] . | |||
| The notorious up-ending of the ] ] constitution is the single example of a parliamentary ] voting for its own demise . It is also an example of the conflicts of interest between ] and ] power , personified here by the Ecclesiastic Party Leader, Monsignor Kaas | |||
| The terms of the Enabling Act themselves forbad the earlier interference with the Institution of the Reicshstag which these arrests achieved . | |||
| It can be argued that ] had to make the best of the situation, in order to ensure some amount of protection for the Church in Germany, but of his early approbation for Hitler , and his attitude against Communism , there is no doubt . | |||
| The Catholic Church has yet to release documents for the relevant period, but the accusation is that the Centre vote elevated Hitler to power much more quickly than Hitler's preferred "legal" entry to power might have otherwise required. ] is remembered as the conduit for Pacelli's and Pope Pius XI's favour towards Hitler. Reports of complicity towards restoration of the German monarchy in 1925 suggest great care by the Vatican to avoid evidential remains in delicate political negotiations . The war-time vatican channel between the German ] and the Allies in ] and ] even more naturally , for fears of the ] implicating the Holy See , were purely verbal . | |||
| There is accusation that the German concordat (see ] ) which remains in force to this day - allowed for the induction of Catholic priests into the armed forces during hostilities. Article 27 of the concordat states, in part, "The Church will accord provision to the German army for the spiritual guidance of its Catholic officers, personnel and other officials, as well as for the families of the same...The ecclesiastical appointment of military chaplains and other military clergy will be made after previous consultations with the appropriate authorities of the ] by the army bishop." The clear reference here is the drafting of priests not as soldiers, but as chaplains. | |||
| It nevertheless did not mention anti-semitism nor the Jews by name despite the obvious need for this , and , Pacelli's own pontificate did not do so either during the whole of the ] and the ] . | |||
| Critics cite the danger of the destabilisation of a democracy by a church, relevant even in today's politics. | |||
| The ''quid pro quo'' with ] lives in histories relating to this descent of Europe into barbarity and war . In terms of the ] itself Pius not having spoken out for the Jews publicly by name , nor in strong and explicit condemnation of Nazism is noted .It is recently argued (see ] that Pacelli himself was a lifelong ] who otherwise could have seriously undermined Hitler and Nazism among Germany's many catholics. While the world was divided politically and geographically, many catholics were united behind their Pope, and followed his lead into their own personal accomodations with Hitlerism . | |||
| Had Pope Pius XII denounced Nazism in the strongest possible terms, it is possible that it could have not only caused unrest amongst catholics in the German army, but it could have also caused catholics working in German war factories to undermine German army support and logistics systems. This would have dealt a serious blow to the German war effort. Conversely, such action probably would have caused heavy suppression of Catholics, given that Nazism was more focused on Protestantism in the first place. | |||
| Such speculation does not form any part of the German Resistance ( ] ) studies . | |||
| Although an individual of self-less habit , he was a believer of the absolute leadership priciple . he more than anyone promoted the concept of absolute papal rule , diminuishing the earlier collegiality of the church councils . Modesty of appearance belied great subtlety and cunning as he inherited his forbears desire for the papacy to once again exert all powerful control over the church through ecclesiastical and international law . | |||
| The historic autonomy of the Germanic Catholic Church stood in contrast to these developements so ... | |||
| ===Disagreement=== | |||
| The following statement on my talk page should probably appear here also: | |||
| ::No, I'm afraisd to say that I do not accept your ediing of this article at all . Since you would simply make me repeat all my sourcing , I take this ill as the editing you have done is clearly POV because it does not accept the sources . I am blocked , by you McC .] 09:05, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| All of the material that I considered either speculative or POv has been moved to this talk page and is available for any Wikipedian to review and re-edit. | |||
| To the best of my knowledge, no one has been "blocked". Blocking is an administrative function that can be used on a short-term basis to deal with abuse, typically 3RR violations or vandalism. I am not an admin and do not have (or want) the power to block anyone. Rather than complaining that editing is blocking him,] would do better to request a third opinion or mediation. ] 11:27, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Article repaired Through Scholarly Source John Cornwell== | |||
| Here is the link ] to the source from ''Vanity Fair'' Magazine of an abbreviation of John Cornwell's '']'' . If the ] rules according to its rules , then a source is a source . This is the most complete up to date scholarly source . By all means add more recent source . Full acknowledgement to both John Cornwell and Vanity Fair- I have lagely substituted as many simple parallel terms as appropriate . Any more adherence to the Vanity Fair text is by regard for fair educational use . Something especially urgent here on WP . ] 16:19, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| At ] 16:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC) I note disappearance of John Cornwell's explanations . I note no discussion here by Str1977 , who is editing under the impressions Cornwell is POV and or mistranslating . I see no proofs nor any sign of well, lets not go into that . I refer editors to thr Rfc re:Famekeeper , linked from my name page . I can only think that this is not my argument any more , and that Str can do as he wishes . What anybody else might judge is up to them . I see messages but they should be here . This article page needs careful consideration by some authority of Wkipdia rules and regulations who can decide when a historian is not a source and consider a protection . It is not for me to say , not to hang around more in hand to hand. ] | |||
| I reverted, not because I oppose including your information (see my post at your talk page), but because the whole edit was infused with a anti-Pacelli POV (which might come from Cornwell) studded with factual inaccuracies (rewrote concordats), debunked claims (anti-semitic letter) or off-topic remarks (Martin Luther burned canons etc). | |||
| I also removed one of the links linking (sorry the redundancy) to Vanity Fair's excerpt of Cornwell's book. This is why I put them side by side first so that everyone could see that I removed only a doublette. | |||
| ] 16:58, 9 | |||
| ::I really don't mind what you do as it is your own choice to intervene in this way . I do think you will be the subject of scrutiny , but I have played my part . It is not for me to fight : You are rv'ing source ., and it's up to you . Personally I believe this takes us right back to the beginning- you are a fantastic terrier for the cause of Pacelli , and it really isn't any of it to do with my POV . I sourced everything I ever did on articles , the rest were my attempts to cure you of this craziness . The WP is being made a mockery , and there is an ongoing resultant responsibility . The page will need to return to my last edit , or sources are not part of WP . As ever this goes in tandem with Kaas , attacked by McC . It's not my problem ,see? It's yours and his and the WP's . You are certainly not within the guidelines now, but it is not news to me , as you never were . Bye August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Your insertions were reverted because they were not presented as Cornwell's POV, but as fact. It is fact and NPOV that Cornwell says that Pacelli believed in centralized power and was working toward that objective. It is POV to simply say that. You did not present them as Cornwell's statements, but as fact. | |||
| :::I am still agreeable to mediation or arbitration. I am not trying to block or censor any view. I am only trying to remove unattributed POV to the talk page. If you can present it as POV, then it can be presented. You did not attribute it. I suggest that you move all of the questioned material to ], which is a summary of what Cornwell wrote. There is an NPOV flag on that article because I questioned whether you had accurately summarized what Cornwell wrote. If you can accurately esummarize what he wrote, then I will remove the NPOV tag. I do suggest not relying on a summary of Cornwell's book. I do suggest using the book itself. | |||
| :::If you think that the Misplaced Pages is being made a mockery of, please post another RfC or RfM or even RfAR. I am looking for truth, but truth is not found by shouting. ] 01:50, 10 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| No contrary source added . No substantiated claim . ] 01:12, 10 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Sorry, FK, but no. Your last edited might be taken out of Cornwell word for word, but this is about Pacelli/Pius the man as he was - not as Cornwell portrays him. Cornwell is just ''one'' book about him. I didn't want to revert alltogether - I started removing certain bits that were clearly unsuitable but it turned that the anti-Pacelli bias (even Pacelli-hate) permeated through the whole text (I guess you took that directly from Cornwell). As it were it cannot stand - not as fact - only as POV, Cornwell's POV and, there I agree with Robert would be best placed at the Hitler's Pope page - there Cornwell's book and his description of Pius is the basis of the article. ] 08:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
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Alleged reference
Pacelli presided as Papal Legate over the International Eucharistic Congress in Buenos Aires, Argentina in 10–14 October 1934, and in Budapest in 25–30 May 1938. At this time, anti-semitic laws were in the process of being formulated in Hungary. Pacelli made reference to the Jews "whose lips curse and whose hearts reject him even today".
Aside the fact that the quote is from what is at least a ternary source (because I assume the quote is faithful), as well as the question whether the pope knew anti-semitic laws were "being formulated" in Hungary at the same time, I don't think that the source proves that that the pope referred to Jews, but it explicitly denies that he made a direct reference, and this much is clear from the quote in the source:
Jesus conquers! He who so often was the recipient of the rage of his enemies, he who suffered the persecutions of those of whom he was one, he shall be triumphant in the future as well As opposed to the foes of Jesus, who cried out to his face, "Crucify him!"—we sing him hymns of our loyalty and our love. We act in this fashion, not out of bitterness, not out of a sense of superiority, not out of arrogance toward those whose lips curse him and whose hearts reject him even today
At the very least, the reference in the article should be reformulated to express doubt. I would prefer it to be expressed as an opinion of the author of the tertiary source unless there are others that independently agree. Paxcoder (talk) 20:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Cardinal Pacelli was not the Papal Nuncio to Argentina nor to Budapest. He was the Vatican's equivalent to Secretary of State. He was number two to Pope Pius XI whom the Nazis and Communists didn't want to become Pope. That's why they tried to assassinate him. They even tried to assassinate him when he became Pope Pius XII but the Papal security stopped all such attempts. It is dishonest to claim he was a supporter of the Nazis. 2603:9000:6213:3A00:C9F4:22A6:3346:1180 (talk) 02:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
References
- Marchione, 2002, p. 22
- Christian responses to the Holocaust: moral and ethical issues: Religion, theology, and the Holocaust, Donald J. Dietrich, p. 92, Syracuse University Press, 2003; ISBN 0-8156-3029-8
-
{{cite web}}: Empty citation (help) -
{{cite web}}: Empty citation (help)
Birthtime of Pope Pius XII
3:08 AM (02:08 GMT) was a probable birthtime of Pope Pius XII. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because of the differences of timezones. The standard time of Misplaced Pages is GMT, not including DST.
189.98.244.242 (talk) 13:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Historical error
"Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor on 30 January 1933 and sought to gain international respectability and to remove internal opposition by representatives of the church and the Catholic Centre Party. He sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Pacelli, Prelate Ludwig Kaas, the outgoing chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated first drafts of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20 July and ratified on 10 September 1933. Bishop Preysing cautioned against compromise with the new regime, against those who saw the Nazi persecution of the church as an aberration that Hitler would correct."
is incorrect on several points. The Associated Press reported in 1933 that "Goebells a minister without portfolio" signed the concordant for Germany. Hitler was not in charge of German government and hadn't even picked his staff yet. President Paul Von Hindenburg was in charge and would only agree to appoint Hitler as Chancellor if Hitler accepted the appointment of Von Papen as Vice Chancellor according to the Associated Press. The Associated Press reported that in 1934 when President Paul Von Hindenburg fell ill and was thought to be on his deathbed, Hitler arrested former Chancellors von schleicher and von Papen among other opponents of the Nazi party. The Associated Press articles of 1934 reported Hitler had von schleicher executed and was preparing to have von Papen executed as well when the President Paul von Hindenburg recovered from his illness and pleaded with Hitler to spare the life of von Papen. In 1934, the Associated Press reported that Hitler spared von Papen's life but put him under house arrest. von Papen remained under house arrest for the duration of the war. von Papen was not acting under Hitler's orders when he approached the Vatican about signing a Concordant. He acted under the authority of President Paul von Hindenburg. As Chancellor, Hitler did not have the authority to negotiate with the Vatican. In 1933, that authority was still in von Hindenburg's jurisdiction. The Concordant was not an endorsement of von Hindenburg nor was it an endorsement of Adolf Hitler. Von Papen remained under house arrest and was not convicted for war crimes at the Nuremberg trials because he was Hitler's prisoner not a participant in the government.
An interesting side note: In 1933 the Associated Press reported when Hitler was appointed Chancellor by von Hindenburg Albert Eistein resigned his Prussian citizenship and was quoted as stating "the Catholic church was the only organization telling the truth about the Nazis." HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 02:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- The AP reported in 1933? Do you have copies of the reports, or full citations other than nebulous dates? Elizium23 (talk) 19:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- If you think that Hitler didn't take immediate and total charge of the German government in 1933, you're the one guilty of historical error JHobson3 (talk) 20:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
yes. 1934 not 1935. Sorry about the mix up. I was putting them all in order yesterday by date. Discovered my memory was off by a year.
| Collectively, these are copyright violations, although individually they are not - hence collapsing rather than redacting. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
|---|
Subheading: German President Believes Four Years of Stability Ahead; Expresses Keen Interest In Contest In The United States." "... One of the outstanding results of the voting was that Adolf Hitler's strength dropped from 37.7 percent of the total ballots to 33 percent, and his National Socialist party delegation in the Reichstag was cut from 230 to 195." "The Communist Reichstag membership jumped from 89 to 100, the Centrists decreased their delegation from 75 to 70, the Nationalists returned 51 against 37 in the old Reichstag, and the Socialists dropped from 133 to 121."
"Chancellor Franz Von Papen, who has directed the German Government for a little less than six months, resigned today taking his whole cabinet out with him in the face of almost unanimous opposition in the new Reichstag. ..."
"For the second time in three months, Adolf Hitler, who was a corporal in the World War, applied today to Field Marshal Paul Von Hindenburg, President of Germany, to be made Chancellor of the Reich." "This time, in marked contrast to their meeting August 13, Hitler was invited to sit down for an hour and to talk with frank cordiality. As he departed from the president's residence, he was asked to come back for another conference next Tuesday."
Subheading 1: "President Von Hindenburg However, Imposes Certain Restrictions That May Prevent Acceptance New Honors." Subheading 2: " Limitations Set" Subheading 3: "Must Not Tamper With Reichswehr, Emergency Decrees And Other Safeguards of Law and Order; Nazi Leader Replies." "After nine years of striving, Adolf Hitler today received a mandate to form a cabinet, but it was under conditions which immediately at least, he could not accept. ..."
"Besieged by two groups of conflicting advisers, Adolf Hitler, leader of the National Socialist, decided today to put off until tomorrow his reply to President Von Hindenburg's reiterated conditional proffer of the chancellorship."
Bottom Caption: "Adolf Hitler writes President Paul Von Hindenburg that restrictions placed on proffered chancellorship of Germany are too cramping to insure successful administration of the high office."
Subheading 1: "Counter Offer" Subheading 2: " Nazi Leader Declares He Cannot Solve German Situation on Purely Parliamentary Basis of Action." Expected Nazi Tripe Follows
Subheading:"President of Republic Expresses Lack Confidence In Nazi Leader To Control Reichstag; Now Looking for Another Candidate" "President Von Hindenburg, who offered to make Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany if he could guarantee the support of the Reichstag, withdrew that offer today and called in leaders of the other parties to consider another candidate." "At any rate he could not command that support. The National Socialist party is the largest in the Reichstag but it is far short of a majority and Hitler could not swing the Nationalists or the Bavarian party into line." "He told the president last night he could not control the Reichstag, but he renewed his proposal that Von Hindenburg make him head of a 'presidential' cabinet to rule without consulting the parliament." "The president's refusal today made it plain that he has not sufficient confidence in Hitler to place him at the head of a government like that which Franz Von Papen headed, to rule solely with the presidential authority."
Follow the Associated Press reporting on the joint investigation by the Italian Police and the Papal gendarmerie. It is interesting and determined the target was Cardinal Pacelli. Unexploded bombs were summer of 1931, and February 13, 1932.
Subheading: "Former Chancellor Von Scheicher Is Killed" "In a day of summary punishment for those who challenged his authority--the denouncement of the crisis of recent weeks hastened by the disclosure of immoral orgies indulged in by leaders of his own Nazi storm troops -- the chancellor 'liquidated' leaders of a threefold opposition; the reactionary monarchists, the 'Catholic Action" group, and the left wing storm troopers who plotted his end." "Heinrich Klausner, leader of the 'Catholic Action' group was shot to death". — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 17:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Paul von Hindenburg gravely ill. Purge begins. von Papen placed under house arrest. "When reports of the calling together of physicians reached Berlin the rumor was quickly revived that von Hindenburg had written a 'political will' naming the conservative von Papen as his successor and enjoining the army, always faithful to the president, to help him if necessary". — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 20:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Notable quotes from the article: "With the dead in Germany's 'blood purge' reaching several hundred, according to a reliable source, Chancellor Adolf Hitler today moved to strengthen his hold on the Reich by replacing the conservative, non-Nazi vice-Chancellor Franz Von Papen. It was expected that before the end of the day Herman Wilhelm Goering, co-purger with Hitler in the ruthless suppression of 'traitors,' would be elevated to the vice-chancellorship." "President Von Hindenburg's strong protective hand was thrown around Von Papen after the 86 year old executive had congratulated Hitler and Goering on their "liquidation" with bullets of conservative and radical rebels against Hitlerism." "But when Von Hindenburg spoke Hitler took steps to protect von Papen whose criticism of radical Nazis two weeks ago was the first public sign of rumblings preceeding the 'bloody Saturday' of suppression." "Major Mueldner von Muelhmheim, for many years adjutant to the former Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, was arrested because of his friendship for General Kurt von Schleicher, killed with his wife while 'resisting arrest' Saturday." "The remarkable vitality of Von Hindenburg, hero of the army and the people, was demonstrated forcibly in his actions today." "Yesterday his condition was so alarming that a "'major medical council' was called at his estate. Today he was able to walk in this garden and to speak vigorously on matters vitally affecting the beloved Germany which he has served in war and peace for more than half a century."
SubHeading: "Status Is Uncertain" "Vice-Chancellor Said Appointed By Chief Executive as Check Against Extremists." Notable quotes from the article: "Out of a momentous night conference between Chancellor Adolf Hitler and President Paul Von Hindeburg at the latter's country estate, Germany looked today for an answer to the big question mark arising from the 'second Nazi revolution'-the political fate of Vice Chancellor Franz Von Papen, staunch friend of von Hindenburg." "The future of von Papen was acknowledged to be of paramount importance to the nation, and, in turn, the world, for if he remained in the government Hitler would be hindered in his reported scheme for tightening the Nazi reins and if he went out a sweeping cabinet shakeup was forseen." "Reliable sources pointed out that under the terms by which Hindenburg accepted the Hitler regime early in 1933, Von Papen was to be the President's confidante and informant, a check and balance."
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- Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- A reputable historian will never call himself a secondary source for events that happened nearly a century ago. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Contemporaneous press accounts are either primary sources or secondary sources. A historian's opinion is not a source. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- That is not correct. The opinions of experts are always considered to be reliable sources, although they should be presented as their opinions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- <redacted copyright violations> — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 19:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Look you need to stop with the WP:WALLOFTEXT. You are quoting far too much and we're going into copyright territory here. You are welcome to make specific improvements to the article or to suggest them, but you're playing around far too generally here and introducing wide swaths of facts that are strictly WP:UNDUE for a bio of this Pope. This pertains to one aspect of his reign, albeit major, but we need to keep it in perspective. Elizium23 (talk) 22:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- @HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst, I've begun reverting your additions. Please do not add any more copyrighted material to this page. This is a talk page for discussion of article improvement, not a dumping ground for arbitrary data. Elizium23 (talk) 22:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're not getting it. You are not allowed to post copyrighted material anywhere on Misplaced Pages, except for short excerpts. Please see WP:Copyright violations and WP:NFCC, and stop posting copyright violations. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Copyright expired on these articles. I was providing excerpts for your convenience. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 23:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
"Pope Pius XII: Illness and death" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Pope Pius XII: illness and death" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect Pope Pius XII: illness and death has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3 § Pope Pius XII: illness and death until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 03:25, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
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