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| title = On Misplaced Pages, Debating 2008 Hopefuls' Every Facet
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| title2 = 'Round the Clock: Obama, Clinton Wiki-Warfare
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|action2=WPR
== Proposed change to "Early life and career" ==
|action2date=18 August 2004
|action2link=Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article/August 18, 2004
|action2result=Maindate
|action2oldid=5294576


|action3=FAR
This is a proposed correction to the "Early life and career" section of the article. The name of the law firm where Obama worked for a decade is incorrect. It is '''''Davis''''' Miner Barnhill & Galland, and it is a small, 12-attorney firm that represents slumlords. Also, the article says that Obama only worked there for three years. The fact is that Obama worked there for ten years. The current single sentence reads like this:
|action3date=09:53, 21 December 2007
|action3link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive0
|action3result=pass
|action3oldid=8658294


|action4=FAR
<blockquote>As an associate ] with Miner, Barnhill & Galland from 1993 to 1996, he represented community organizers, ] claims, and ] cases.<ref>{{cite news | title=Law Graduate Obama Got His Start in Civil Rights Practice | date=] ] | publisher=International Herald Tribune | url=http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/20/america/NA-POL-US-Obama-Attorney-at-Law.php | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-01-04}}</ref></blockquote>
|action4date=09:53, 23 January 2007
|action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive1
|action4result=pass
|action4oldid=102622704


|action5=FAR
Leaving out the name "Davis" confounds most search attempts and divorces Obama from the firm's founder and godfather, Allison Davis, a notorious slumlords' attorney in Chicago. I propose replacing that sentence with these two sentences and a link:
|action5date=22:24, July 26, 2007
|action5link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive2
|action5result=pass
|action5oldid=147098144


|action6=FAR
<blockquote>As an associate ] with Miner Barnhill & Galland (fka Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, founded by attorney Allison Davis) from 1993 to 2003, he represented community organizers, ] claims, and ] cases.<ref>{{cite news | title=Law Graduate Obama Got His Start in Civil Rights Practice | date=] ] | publisher=''International Herald Tribune'' | url=http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/20/america/NA-POL-US-Obama-Attorney-at-Law.php | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-01-04}}</ref> While at the firm, Obama also worked on taxpayer-supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp.<ref>{{cite news | title=Obama and his Rezko ties | date=] ] | publisher=''Chicago Sun-Times'' | url=http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/353829,CST-NWS-rez23.article | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-03-30}}</ref> owned by Daniel Mahru and the now-indicted Democratic Party fundraiser ], who has raised a total of over $250,000 for Obama's various political campaigns.<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/844634,obamasun031508.article | title=Obama explains Rezko relationship to Sun-Times | work=Chicago Sun-Times | author=Chris Fusco | coauthors=David McKinney, Tim Novak, and Abdon M. Pallasch | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-03-16}}</ref></blockquote>
|action6date=06:08, 15 April 2008
|action6link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive3
|action6result=kept
|action6oldid=205714008


|action7=FAR
{{details|Tony Rezko}}
|action7date=12:56, 16 September 2008
|action7link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive4
|action7result=kept
|action7oldid=238756853


|action8=WPR
Please add your comments below. ] (]) 13:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
|action8date=4 November 2008
|action8link=Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article/November 4, 2008
|action8result=Maindate
|action8oldid=249658914


|action9=FAR
This source gives the firm's name as "Davis Miner Barnhill" (Davis, no commas, no Galland). As you say, Davis was important and I don't see any need to note subsequent name changes inline. Maybe a footnote. ] (]) 04:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
|action9date=17:30, 2 December 2008
|action9link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive5
|action9result=kept
|action9oldid=255411914


|action10=FAR
===Comments===
|action10date=03:36, 10 March 2009
Interesting. What happened to the "slumlords" bit? ] (]) 14:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
|action10link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive6
<br><small>(excuse me for refactoring this after and edit conflict -- ] (]) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC))</small>
|action10result=kept
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|action11=FAR
:<del>The name of the law firm certainly needs to be corrected.</del> I think the rest of it is okay as long as you omit the words "now-indicted" (per ]), the phrase "who has raised a total of over $250,000 for Obama's various political campaigns" (per ] and ]), and the unnecessary extra Rezko link. Also, the first Sun-Times citation is inaccurately attributed to the Associated Press. I've changed the heading of this section because this is actually a proposed ''change'' masquerading as a ''correction''. -- ] (]) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
|action11date=23:34, 16 March 2010
::Rezko isn't just "now-indicted." His federal felony trial started on March 14. The news has been eclipsed by this Wright controversy. Rezko has been under indictment since October 2006, more than 17 months, therefore defeating your ] objection. ] isn't violated because prior to this brief mention, the Rezko/Obama relationship isn't even mentioned. Obama has now admitted that there were periods when he was on the phone with Rezko ''every day.'' Like the Wright controversy, this one has been banished to satillite articles that no one will ever read. ] (]) 14:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
|action11link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive7
:::I withdraw my comment about the name of the law firm. It appears that the law firm is called "Miner, Barnhill and Galland" (see ) so it would be completely wrong to make it something else just to alter search engine results. The issues surrounding Rezko are for the ] article. Whether or not he is currently indicted is not important to this article because it is not a biographical detail and it violates ] because the fact is transient. -- ] (]) 15:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
|action11result=kept
::::The law firm is '''''currently''''' named Miner Barnhill & Galland because the notorious slumlords' attorney who founded it, Allison Davis, has recently retired. During the 10 years Obama worked there, it was called Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland. If you'd like to alter the proposed pair of new sentences to read "Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland (now renamed Miner Barnhill & Galland due to retirement of its senior partner, Allison Davis)," I would certainly agree. Efforts to divorce Obama from both Allison Davis and Tony Rezko in this article are not in the best interests of the Misplaced Pages project. ] (]) 15:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
|action11oldid=349918777
:::::Actually, it should say "Miner, Barnhill and Galland (fka ''Davis, Miner, Barnhill and Galland'')" to follow the usual convention. -- ] (]) 15:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
::::::I have now made that change and added the name of the firm's founder, Allison Davis. See above. Obama's close association with an indicted fundraiser, who is currently on trial for federal felonies associated with political fundraising, is very important to this article, Scjessey. Leaving it out would be just another example of efforts to make a hagiography where a biography belongs. ] (]) 15:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::::No. That is simply not acceptable since it is adding details about ''other people'' to a biography. This would be better:
:::::::<blockquote>As an associate ] with Miner, Barnhill and Galland (fka ''Davis, Miner, Barnhill and Galland'') from 1993 to 2003, he represented community organizers, ] claims, and ] cases.<ref>{{cite news | title=Law Graduate Obama Got His Start in Civil Rights Practice | date=] ] | publisher=''International Herald Tribune'' | url=http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/20/america/NA-POL-US-Obama-Attorney-at-Law.php | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-01-04}}</ref> While at the firm, Obama also worked on taxpayer-supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp.<ref>{{cite news | title=Obama and his Rezko ties | date=] ] | publisher=''Chicago Sun-Times'' | url=http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/353829,CST-NWS-rez23.article | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-03-30}}</ref> owned by Daniel Mahru and Democratic Party fundraiser ].<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/844634,obamasun031508.article | title=Obama explains Rezko relationship to Sun-Times | work=Chicago Sun-Times | author=Chris Fusco | coauthors=David McKinney, Tim Novak, and Abdon M. Pallasch | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-03-16}}</ref></blockquote>
:::::::And that's it. That's all you would need to satisfy a neutral point of view. The links contained within the paragraph offer plenty of extra detail if the reader is sufficiently interested. -- ] (]) 16:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
::::::::conceivably the addition of something like "tainted democratic party fundraiser" would be a clearer presentation. that is, IF we add ''anything'' about Rezko at all. It think there is a big undue weight problem here. It doesn't matter how busy rezko's life is, or even how often he was on the phone with Obama five years ago. Those things do not confer "due weight." What would, if it existed, would be consistent RS analysis of the topic, consistent and continued to the point where it was an issue in Obama's 40-something year LIFE. Which again, does not exist. What does is exist is campaign reporting from 07 and 08, based on the events of 06 and after. So again you have two or three years of on-again-off-again reporting, all within the context of Obama's rising political fortunes. Its on the campaign page, where it belongs. (I added it there just like I added the Wright text here lol) ] (]) 21:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


|action12=FAR
:::::Both ] and ] have lengthy sections, with section headers, devoted to their controversies and scandals. Negative words appear. Here, we find none of that. It's sanitized and shrink-wrapped. Anything controversial or negative has been banished to a satellite article. The pattern just keeps repeating itself. ] (]) 00:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|action12date=12:32, 17 March 2010
:::::::::I'm sure we are all very sorry that Obama has not yet had a Special Prosecutor appointed to investigate his actions as first spouse, or gotten involved in a Savings and Loan bribery scandal, but that lack of long-term controversy does not magically give more weight to Rev. Wright (an issue some argue is fundamentally mediated by the freedom of religion clause) or Tony Rezko (who is innocent until proven guilty ''in some jurisdictions''). We mention Wright which I think is fine but may well fall to the recentism axe in the long run- regardless your notion that we need to balance length or negativity, would make sense if that balance existed in reality- but it don't. That "lack of balance" is a big part of how a black dude won 95% white Iowa, so I think its fine to "call attention" to it in our formatting (by not having a big controversy section), and its fine for us to ignore your theory that we should make ''this'' page uglier just because Obama has a higher moral record than some other politicians. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
|action12link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive8
::::::Could you point those out? ''']''' ''']''' 00:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|action12result=kept
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|action13=FAR
I'd support the version Scjessey proposes, with the change of "Democratic Party fundraiser ]" to "controversial Illinois businessman and political fundraiser ]". "Democratic Party fundraiser" is inaccurate, since Rezko also raised money for Republicans (incl. George W. Bush). The phrase "controversial Illinois businessman" is in the article now under "Personal life". If we move it up to "Early life and career" we might not need to identify Rezko further in the "Personal life" section. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 01:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|action13date=12:32, 17 June 2012
:Hmmm. Question on the weighting of his work. Obama only put in a few hours working on Rezmar cases while at DMB&G and it's getting the same amount of weight as nine years of working on civil rights and discrimination cases. --] <sup>]</sup> 02:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|action13link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive9
::None of his other clients have been indicted for political fundraising abuses. ] (]) 02:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|action13result=kept
:::Which is why it is okay to include that he worked on the loans, etc, but he also worked on cases that forced the state of Illinois to implement a federal law that was designed to make it easier for people to register to vote, a whistleblowers wrongful termination suit that netted the woman $5 million, and another lawsuit that forced the city of Chicago to redraw its wards (among others). --] <sup>]</sup> 03:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|action13oldid=497955278
:A term such as "indicted" would be more appropriate than "controversial" when talking about Tony Rezko. Britney Spears is controversial. Tony Rezko is indicted. Innocent until proven guilty and all that, but close observers say he's going to prison. One of his co-conspirators is going to testify against him, and the feds also have wiretap evidence. The prosecutor is Patrick Fitzgerald, the same one who obtained a conviction against Scooter Libby. Here are 4,556 Google news links between Obama and Rezko. Here are 3,831 Google news links between Obama and '''''the trial''''' of Rezko. If Rezko were merely controversial, he wouldn't be on trial. ] (]) 01:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


|action14=FAR
::That's a reasonable point, but we should be careful that the wording doesn't suggest that Rezko was indicted when Obama worked for his company, or for any dealings that Obama had anything to do with. ] says, "Beware of claims that rely on ]." To be accurate and in keeping with BLP, we'd probably have to say "Illinois businessman and political fundraiser ], who was later indicted for activities unrelated to Obama." But I worry that that's too wordy, and places undue weight on an association that isn't all that important to Obama's '''biography'''. It's important in the campaign, yes, but is his association with Rezko really so important in the man's life that it merits nearly as much verbiage as his mother gets? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 02:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|action14date=20:51, 22 October 2012
|action14link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive10
|action14result=kept
|action14oldid=519144660


|action15 = FAR
:::"... but we should be careful that the wording doesn't suggest that Rezko was indicted when Obama worked for his company ..." Yes, of course. That's why I believe we should use "now-indicted" to indicate that he wasn't yet indicted at that time.
|action15date = 2021-12-04
:::::::::or "tainted" (like i suggested before, I really think it works) ] (]) 03:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|action15link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive11
:::"It's important in the campaign, yes, but is his association with Rezko really so important in the man's life that it merits nearly as much verbiage as his mother gets?" Yes, of course. Information about Obama's mother can be used in ]. Right now, there are two controversies surrounding Obama. Despite the fact that a four-sentence paragraph has been agreed upon for the Jeremiah Wright (reluctantly since half a loaf is better than none), that section still sits at just two sentences. And there is still zero mention of Tony Rezko in the article mainspace. So we have two major controversies, which merit thousands of articles in the world's news sources, and they get a total of two sentences between them in this article. ] (]) 03:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|action15result = demoted
|action15oldid = 1058343247


|currentstatus=FFA
::::Er... Rezko is mentioned in the "Personal life" section, and the four-sentence version of the Wright matter has been introduced to the article. Do you need to refresh the page? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 03:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
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| title2 = 'Round the Clock: Obama, Clinton Wiki-Warfare | author2 = ], Rachel Martin | date2 = April 3, 2008 | url2 = http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89333759&sc=emaf | org2 = ], ]
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| title9=NJ Man Appoints Himself Misplaced Pages Watchdog | author9 = Paul Murnane | date9 = May 28, 2008 | url9=http://www.wcbs880.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=2400703 | org9 = ]
| title10 = Updating a Reference Site on the Fly | author10 = Noam Cohen | date10 = November 9, 2008 | url10 = http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/technology/internet/10link.html | org10 = ]
| title11 = Obama Misplaced Pages page under possible security attack | author11 = Adrian Bridgwater | date11 = January 22, 2009 | url11 = http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,1001960o-2000458459b,00.htm | org11 = ]
| title12 = Misplaced Pages scrubs Obama eligibility | author12 = ] | date12 = March 8, 2009 | url12 = http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 | org12 = ]
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:::::also rezko only has one sentence even on the campaign WP, so that means it has like... a phrases worth?... of notability here, if any. ] (]) 03:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
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== Request to replace Obama portrait ==
::::The failure of the campaign article to give it the attention it deserves is not binding here. The Rezko scandal, and Obama's other links to the profoundly corrupt Daley political machine in Chicago, are major news. It doesn't just affect the campaign. I said earlier that these scandals could easily end up costing Obama the White House, and that it doesn't get any more notable than that in a biography. Read this. It's a blog, but it's written by reliable investigative journalists from the ''Chicago Tribune'' and the ''Chicago Sun-Times.''
{{atop

| result = {{nd}}. It is hard to make this clear without being mean, but this does not matter in the slightest. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 05:01, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Obama has been taking dirty money from Rezko for many years. He knew that Rezko was under investigation for '''''crimes related to political fundraising.'''''
}}

::::If Rezko were on trial for crimes completely unrelated to politics, you would have a point. But he was under investigation, and is now on trial, for '''''crimes related to political fundraising.''''' The feds have him on tape, in numerous conversations. One of his co-conspirators has already been convicted, and is testifying against Rezko hoping to get a reduced sentence. Rezko's scam was approaching contractors who hope to get work with the government of the state of Illinois. He would tell them, "If you make a nice, fat campaign contribution to this particular politician, you're a lot more likely to get the contract. But if you don't make the contribution, there's no way in hell you'll get the contract." That is a felony, just as it should be and Rezko is virtually certain to go to prison for it.

::::After he is convicted, he will be under pressure (just like the co-conspirator who is now testifying against him) to give up some bigger fish in return for a reduced sentence. He will probably give up Governor ], who is in this sewage up to his neck. But he may also give up Obama, and testify against him. Suppressing any mention of this is an obvious whitewash. Also, there has been abundant criticism of Obama from notable sources but there is zero criticism in this article. It looks like it was written by his campaign staff. ] (]) 11:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

:::::I would like to add that attempting to divorce these political scandals from Obama's biography, by banishing them to satellite articles that have been proven to be read by virtually nobody, and claiming that "it's about the campaign, not about Obama," is more than a bit disingenuous. Obama's life has been devoted to politics. If he'd never run for office, he might merit a stub as a community activist. Serving in political office is his career. It is what makes him notable. Therefore notable scandals and controversies in his campaign deserve prominent and detailed discussion right here, in this biography. ] (]) 12:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

::::::Yes, you've already said that. I'm afraid that is just how Misplaced Pages (or indeed any encyclopedia). Otherwise we'd have one giant long page that started with the ] and ended with:
:::::::"''13:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC) : Misplaced Pages user ] comments on the ] about how awesome blue links are.''"
::::::And I think even "tainted" might be problematic, because it may expose Misplaced Pages to accusations of a defamatory nature. Better to let the blue link handle it anyway. -- ] (]) 13:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Rezko isn't "controversial". He's on trial for extorting political contributions. And he's delivered over $250k in political contributions to Obama. Including almost $40k that was crucial to the start of Obama's Senate run. Not to mention the part he played in the purchase of Obama's house. But he couldn't have expected or asked for or got anything back for his money, right? Just investing in good government, right? Anyway, he's notorious now, and the fact that Obama has connections to a notorious figure wouldn't get so little attention in any non-promotional bio. ] (]) 14:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Rezko may yet be exonerated (although this seems unlikely), so even if it ''where'' logical to put the extra detail in about him (which it isn't) we cannot assume he is going to be convicted or we would be in violation of ]. Besides, he contributed to ''both'' parties. Oh, and the house thing is already covered in the "Personal life" section. -- ] (]) 14:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::::"The house purchase and subsequent acquisition of an adjoining strip of land drew media scrutiny in November 2006 because of financial links with controversial Illinois businessman Tony Rezko." is the ''only'' menton of Rezko in the article. What did you think we were talking about? Obama invited Rezko to walk through his proposed purchase, which couldn't go forward unless the lot next door was sold too, and then Rezko, a pro in the development business, plunked down the full asking price of the lot while Obama got a price reduction. And now Obame has a really big side yard (he pays for the landscaping) until some indefinate future time when the purchaser decides that getting some return on his capital is worth depriving the Senator of his view of the trees. All an arms-length transaction, of course. The fact that Rezko gave to both parties is surely proof positive that his only concern is policy, not favors. Uhhh.... Wait a second. Did that last make sense? You seem to think it does. I dunno. ] (]) 23:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
::::::Here's an interesting tidbit. Obama admits that he brought the lot, which had been on the market for months, to the attention of Rezko when he asked Rezko for advice about buying the property. But the seller's broker remembers it differently. "Asked who approached her about the house, Schwan told Salon, 'I honestly don't remember. '''Tony Rezko lived across the street''', so ''he'd been interested'' in the lot.'" . Obama moved in '''across the street''' from Rezko????? I mean, I assume it's not ''literally'' true, but how far from it? I think we have the intersection for Obama - anybody got Rezko's address? (nb: 72etc. This is OR. It's ok. We can't cite it, but we can use it to decide how hard we look for the significance of a quote we find in a RS.) ] (]) 16:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT PERSONAL ADDRESSES ARE ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A BLP VIOLATION ON TALK OR ANYWHERE ELSE. quit with the talk page spam andy like you have been told five times already at least. ] (]) 06:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

== Wright compromise at last? ==

It seems that we may, ''finally'' have reached a compromise over the wording in the paragraph concerning Jeremiah Wright. Let me summarize the three positions:
;'''"Pro-Obama" text''': In March 2008, a ] broke out concerning racially- and politically-charged statements made by Obama's long-time pastor ].<ref>{{cite news | url=http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4443788 | title=Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11 | author=Brian Ross | publisher='']'' | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-03-17}}</ref><ref>Andrew Sullivan. ''The Atlantic: The Daily Dish'', ] ]. Retrieved on ]</ref> On ], Obama delivered a speech in response to the controversy titled "]" at the Constitution Center in ], ] and while condemning the ill-received remarks Wright had made, he also sought to give them historical context by describing some of the events that have formed Wright's views on race.<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0319/p25s01-uspo.html | title=Remarks by Barack Obama: 'A More Perfect Union' | author=Barack Obama | work=The Christian Science Monitor | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-03-18}}</ref>
;'''"Anti-Obama" text''': Also in March, a ] broke out concerning Obama's 23-year relationship with his former pastor and religious mentor, ].<ref>{{cite news | url=http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4443788 | title=Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11 | author=Brian Ross | publisher='']'' | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-03-17}}</ref><ref>Andrew Sullivan. ''The Atlantic: The Daily Dish'', ] ]. Retrieved on ]</ref> Videos surfaced of some of Wright's sermons (in which he claimed, for example, that the ] the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color,<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.slate.com/id/2186860/|title=The AIDS Conspiracy Handbook|accessdate=2008-04-05|publisher=Slate.com|author=Lapidos, Juliet|date=March 19, 2008}}</ref> and attributed the 9/11 attacks to American faults ranging from taking the country from the Indian tribes by terror, bombing Grenada, Panama, Libya, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, and supporting state terrorism against the Palestinians and South Africa).<ref>{{cite news | url=http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/14/obamas-spiritual-adviser-questioned-us-role-in-spread-of-hiv-sept-11-attacks/ | title=Obama’s Pastor’s Sermon: ‘God Damn America’ | publisher=FOXNews | author=Jeff Goldblatt | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-04-04}}</ref><ref>http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/</ref> Following negative media coverage and a drop in the polls,<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3591359.ece|title=Polls show Barack Obama damaged by link to Reverend Jeremiah Wright|date=March 21, 2008|accessdate=2008-04-05|work=Times Newspapers, Ltd|author=Reid, Tim}}</ref> Obama responded by condemning some of Wright's remarks and cutting Wright's connections to his Presidential campaign. He also delivered ] devoted to the subject, which he sought to put it in the context of racial and other political divides in America.<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0319/p25s01-uspo.html | title=Remarks by Barack Obama: 'A More Perfect Union' | author=Barack Obama | work=The Christian Science Monitor | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-03-18}}</ref><ref name="apracespeech">{{cite news | url=http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gRloD01UY7O-mlm7HkoTEgFcoPJgD8VG3E500 | title= Obama confronts racial division | date=], ] | work=The Associated Press | author=Nedra Pickler, Matt Apuzzo | accessdate=2008-04-06}}</ref> Although the speech was generally well-received,<ref name="apracespeech" /><ref>{{cite news |title=Mr. Obama’s Profile in Courage |url=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/opinion/19wed1.html |publisher=The New York Times |date=2008-03-19 |accessdate=2008-03-19}}</ref> critics continued to question the implications of Obama's long and close relationship with Wright.<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23743408/ | title=Obama's minister's remarks won't fade | date=], ] | accessdate=2008-03-26 | work=The Associated Press}}</ref><ref name=tpC20080318>{{cite news | title=Obama's racial problems transcend Wright | date=] ] | url=http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9111.html | work=The Politico | accessdate=2008-03-18}}</ref><ref>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/24/opinion/24kristol.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin</ref>
;'''Compromise text''': In March 2008, a ] broke out concerning Obama's longterm relationship with his former pastor and religious mentor, ].<ref>{{cite news | url=http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4443788 | title=Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11 | author=Brian Ross | publisher='']'' | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-03-17}}</ref><ref>Andrew Sullivan. ''The Atlantic: The Daily Dish'', ] ]. Retrieved on ]</ref> ABC News found several racially and politically charged sermons by Rev. Wright, a former member of the US Marines and Navy, including his suggestion that the U.S. bore some responsibility for the ] due to past policies, and his questioning of the ].<ref>{{cite news | url=http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/14/obamas-spiritual-adviser-questioned-us-role-in-spread-of-hiv-sept-11-attacks/ | title=Obama’s Pastor’s Sermon: ‘God Damn America’ | publisher=FOXNews | author=Jeff Goldblatt | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-04-04}}</ref> Some of Wright's statements were widely interpreted as anti-American, though one report found precedents in an essay by ].<ref> {{cite web | url = http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/04/07/080407fa_fact_sanneh | title = Project Trinity | work = The New Yorker | accessdate = 2008-04-08}}</ref> Following negative media coverage and during a temporary drop in the polls,<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3591359.ece|title=Polls show Barack Obama damaged by link to Reverend Jeremiah Wright|date=March 21, 2008|accessdate=2008-04-05|work=Times Newspapers, Ltd|author=Reid, Tim}}</ref> Obama responded by condemning Wright's remarks, cutting his relationship to his campaign, and delivering a speech entitled "]" at the Constitution Center in ], ].<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0319/p25s01-uspo.html | title=Remarks by Barack Obama: 'A More Perfect Union' | author=Barack Obama | work=The Christian Science Monitor | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-03-18}}</ref> In the speech, Obama rejected Wright's offensive comments, but refused to disown the man himself.<ref name="apracespeech">{{cite news | url=http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gRloD01UY7O-mlm7HkoTEgFcoPJgD8VG3E500 | title= Obama confronts racial division | date=], ] | work=The Associated Press | author=Nedra Pickler, Matt Apuzzo | accessdate=2008-04-06}}</ref> Although the speech, which attempted to explain and contextualize the comments, was generally well-received,<ref name="apracespeech" /><ref>{{cite news |title=Mr. Obama’s Profile in Courage |url=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/opinion/19wed1.html |publisher=The New York Times |date=2008-03-19 |accessdate=2008-03-19}}</ref> some continued to press the question of Obama's long-standing relationship with Wright.<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23743408/ | title=Obama's minister's remarks won't fade | date=], ] | accessdate=2008-03-26 | work=The Associated Press}}</ref><ref name=tpC20080318>{{cite news | title=Obama's racial problems transcend Wright | date=] ] | url=http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9111.html | work=The Politico | accessdate=2008-03-18}}</ref>
Have we now reached a satisfactory compromise that means we can put this issue to bed (unless it flares up again with new revelations, etc.) and move on to other things? -- ] (]) 15:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
:I may have spoken too soon (see above) -- ] (]) 16:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
::also even though the redirect works fine- frederick douglass is the proper spelling... if we end up keeping... ] (]) 20:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
:I think it should be mentioned that Obama went to this guy's church for 20 years.] (]) 03:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, thank you. ''']]''' 03:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

:::The "compromise" is an improvement, but is in one respect completely unacceptable. Wright didn't engage in "questioning of the government's role in the spread of AIDS". Yes, the anonymous FOXNews writer (not Goldblatt despite the template, which needs to be fixed -- Goldblatt merely "contributed") wrote "The Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., in his taped sermons, also questioned America’s role in the spread of the AIDS virus and suggested that the United States bore some responsibility for the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks." but supplies the quote he's referring to: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.” Wright isn't "questioning" anything. He makes an assertion. Twice. And it's about the invention, not the spread. Hard to understand how FOX got it so wrong, but we don't have to repeat it. The source for the Douglass reference, e.g., says: "...he has a weakness for theories that match his sense of outrage but not the facts, as when he repeated the popular conspiracy theory that “the government lied about inventing the H.I.V. virus as a means of genocide against people of color.”" ((...and the msnbc.com reference says "Wright can be heard arguing"(sic; another RS falsehood)"that HIV-AIDS was a U.S. government plot to wipe out 'people of color'".))
:::Speaking of the Douglass reference, it is based on this, by ]: <blockquote>Frederick Douglass, in an appendix to his “Narrative,” earnestly assures readers that he is not an atheist, then redoubles his attack on the theology of slaveholding America: “Between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference—so wide, that to receive the one as good, pure, and holy, is of necessity to reject the other as bad, corrupt, and wicked.” (Or, rendered into cable-news crawl: “CONTROVERSIAL MEMOIRIST ATTACKS RELIGION. DOUGLASS: AMERICAN VALUES ‘WICKED.’ ”)</blockquote>
:::...which is a pretty weak reed with which to support "one report found precedents(sic) in an essay by Fredrick Douglass". It's only in Sanneh's mind that Douglass' comment about the Christianity of the white churches of the South (given what he - unlike Sanneh apparently - knew about the evangelical roots of abolitionism I cannot credit the notion that Douglass was speaking about ''all'' of America when he says "this land") has some meaningful parallel with Wright's ravings. "DOUGLASS: AMERICAN VALUES ‘WICKED.’" is false in a way in which "WRIGHT: 9/11 AMERICA'S FAULT" isn't.
:::And the business about Wright's military service, presumably inserted to offset the suggestion that Wright's remarks were "anti-American", really looks odd. It's questionable logic (there are other reasons to join the military than patriotism -- FancyCat's original RS says "But disenchanted by what he felt was an inadequate Christian response to the civil rights movement, he abruptly ended his pastoral pursuits and joined the U.S. Navy", which is not like marching down to the recruiting office after 9/11), and the charge it answers is equally non-specific (most blame-America-firsters claim a patriotic loyalty to some vision of America). Note that there's nothing in the "anti-Obama" text about "anti-Americanism". One nice thing about a quote is it lets the reader supply the characterizations, so we don't have to argue about them.
:::But I've left both Douglass and the Navy in. Bad writing, but off my main point, which is that this recitation of this first storm over Wright be told in such a way as to not obscure why Wright is a problem for Obama. ] (]) 12:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

::::Thanks for rejoining the conversation in a civil and productive manner, Andy. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

:I have added the quote from the ''New York Times'' and a section header. It would be nice to have at least one quote in this article from someone who isn't singing hallelujah about Obama in four-part harmony. I hope the ''New York Times'' is sufficiently notable and reliable. ] (]) 12:20, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

:::This sort of sarcasm and uncooperative attitude is '''not''' helpful, Kossack. Most of the editors here are trying to reach a compromise wording for the paragraph (and there does seem to be a real consensus that Wright deserves only one paragraph, and no section heading). Ignoring the discussion and jumping in with sarcastic remarks is disruptive. Try harder to remain ]. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

::Well that's just '''''awesome'''''. You two have all but completely ignored the discussion and put your ''totally'' '''non-neutral''' wording back into the article without even paying lip service to consensus-building or anything difficult like that. Kossack's ''pathetic'' excuse was that the article sounded too positive, so he added all this negative stuff, in direct violation of Misplaced Pages policies, just to make it ''sound'' more negative. Everyone is trying ''really'' hard to make this work except you two, and I am now considering lending my support to mediation because anyone ''in their right mind'' will see your edits for what they truly are - a coordinated smear campaign designed to introduce negative bias to influence the democratic process. I'm so ''incensed'' by this that I'm going to turn my computer off for a few hours and find some inanimate object to destroy or something. -- ] (]) 13:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

:::I think its time for you to take a few steps back. ] (]) 16:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

::::Scjessey, I understand your frustration, but Arkon is right — reacting emotionally isn't going to help us get anywhere. As it happens, I think that Andy actually is trying to work with other editors here. Kossack's addition was less cooperative and less respectful of the consensus-building process, but it's not helpful to lump Andy and Kossack together. Let's all try to ], OK? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel that the part about him being in the US Marines and Navy should be in there. Why is it there? It has nothing to do with anything, it's just there. I felt the compromise was good, just that one thing should be changed since it doesn't serve a purpose.] (]) 10:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
:No, it probably shouldn't be. Looks just like a way of trying to justify his remarks. But this article isn't about Jeremiah Wright. ] (]) 10:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

== Elitist / Racist Remarks ==

Why no mention of Obama's remarks? <ref>http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89588766&ft=1&f=1001</ref>

::''It's not surprising then they get bitter. They cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.''

These remarks are very telling when put in the context of the twenty-year Rev. Wright relationship. ] (]) 10:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

:I agree. And it's turning into quite an issue for him. According to a poll I saw today, Hillary was up 20 points in Pennsylvania, and 25% of people in Penn. said they would never vote for Obama. People have been calling Obama arrogant for a while now, and this doesn't help his case. This will haunt Obama in the general election too, no doubt. ] (]) 10:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

::Yeah! And where's the mention of his Muslim upbringing? --] (]) 11:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

:::Sarcasm does not serve you well, Ubiq. ] (]) 13:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

::::Oh, really? Your opinion means so much to me. Well I guess in that case I'll never use it again. Thanks for the heads up. --] (]) 14:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh come on guys, do we need to have a snark fight for every thing? This section brings up a reasonable question, answer it or not, but stop being jerks. ] (]) 17:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
: We don't need to mention it because we do not need to mention every single misstep/remark made by any candidate. If we were to do that, we'd be no better than any blog which has been dissecting this for days. Currently, the remarks have made no marked impact beyond being talked about by the Media. Until they do, it doesn't need to be brought up. In addition, the polling data cited above is just plain wrong. Unrelated, but I had to mention... ;) ] (]) 17:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
::There was ''one'' poll that gave Clinton a 20-point lead in PA, but it certainly stuck out there on the end of a very long limb. Nationally, Obama has actually since this all blew up. -- ] (]) 17:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Yep. Quinnipac has it unchanged (6pt difference), SUSA has a 14 pt different, moving towards Obama, Rasmussan a 9pt, moving towards Clinton, and Susquehanna a 3pt moving towards Obama. ] (])

As far as I'm concerned, this issue is '''closed'''. Clinton had a 20-point lead before Wright, which deteriorated to a 6-point lead. Now with these "elitist" comments, nothing has happened! ''']]''' 18:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I have sure not seen any polls lately with a 20-point spread. The SurveyUSA thing is the only one I've seen over 10. The latest Public Policy Polling does have Obama 20 points ahead there, though. ] (]) 18:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

:Yep. And an article describing this lack of change/shift. --] (]) 18:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be a weird standard being applied here. The effect of the comments (if there is one) can be noted in the article, but the comments themselves are obviously quite notable and have been covered in a large amount RS's. ] (]) 22:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

If this quote belongs, doesn't it belong in the presidential campaign article for Obama and not the general biography article? ] (]) 22:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
: That is correct. This is related to the campaign and should be discussed at that article's talk. ] <small>]</small> 23:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

:::That is irresponsible. If it wasn't for the presidential campaign, he would just be a freshman senator from Illinois, that almost nobody outside of Illinois has ever heard of. The presidential campaign is what makes him more notable than an ordinary freshman senator. Therefore any event that is worth reporting in the campaign article should be seriously considered for this one, and any event that has a substantial impact on the campaign should be reported here, including the "bitter" remark and its fallout that everyone except Misplaced Pages has noticed. At the debate a couple of nights ago, for the first 45 minutes both moderators were ripping into Obama for that remark, for Jeremiah Wright, for Tony Rezko and for Obama's close association with ] veteran ], whose association with Obama we haven't even started to discuss. ] (]) 11:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
::::That is wrong, Kossack. It was his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention, while still only a State senator, that catapulted Obama into the political stratosphere. People around the ''world'' took note, and his election to the US Senate was , long before his Presidential campaign came to fruition. -- ] (]) 12:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

::It is not surprising that the same cast of characters who said that Wright was a non-issue say that Obama's own words don't matter.

::Guess what? '''''Words matter.'''''

::The saddest part is that the partisans who are busy trying to shield Obama's words, associations and left-wing ideology from the light of day actually think they are ''helping'' the Democratic party. Nothing could be further from the truth. Certain members of the media and very agressive editors of this article are busy leading the lemmings to a 49+ state landslide loss that will make McGovern look strong.

::Newsflash: if you don't vet your own candidate, the other guy will do it for you---and that's the last thing any party wants.

::But, here's the editorial questions. Is the opinion of a selected group of pro-Obama editors the definitive standard by which Misplaced Pages now decides what is reportable in an Obama article? Is a cherry-picked poll the gauge by which you measure the newsworthiness of an issue on Misplaced Pages? Do words ever matter?

::In the end, if the Misplaced Pages editorial consensus is that selected "words don't matter" when Obama and his preacher say them, then I suppose that is a valuable testament to the viewpoint of Misplaced Pages. If "words don't matter" when a particular candidate generalizes about the religion and motivations of others, then that will stand as an indicator---a forty foot tall flashing animated neon indicator---to warn others of the bias pervading this resource. That in and of itself is a service to the Internet. ] (]) 10:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Disappointing. I said I saw a poll on TV. I didn't recall it's name, but clearly none of you bothered to make any effort to google the poll and find out if it actually exists. So in about 5 seconds, I found it at "http://www.americanresearchgroup.com". Now I don't know how credible it is, but it exists.
] (]) 11:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
:Here are the actual , and they describe a sample size of only 600 likely voters in Pennsylvania. A poll like this is probably good news for the Obama campaign because it lowers expectations, although it doesn't seem to agree with other metrics. -- ] (]) 11:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
:CNN has '''5%'''. So the single-digit polls largely outweigh the single 20-point poll. ''']]''' 12:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

::'''What does your interpretation of a handpicked poll have to do with it?'''

::Are you actually trying to maintain that this candidate's words are measured by what certain pro-Obama Misplaced Pages editors glean from their favorite polls? If that is your position---and by all accounts it seems to be your position---then this article is exposed as a sham. If this is not your position, then please explain why the words which came of out Obama's own mouth are not important when juxtaposed with his pastor's hate-speech and his wife's pride for the "first-time" in America.

::This man is running for the President of the United States of America and he has almost no public record (as compared to say John McCain or Ted Kennedy). Therefore every public speech which reveals more about the man and his worldview is very important. ] (]) 10:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

:::Well, I agree with you. But certain editors are going to say that Obama's words don't show arrogance or a negative opinions of guns and religion, and that it belongs in the campaign article. I think it should be mentioned in both. Even if only briefly in this article, as it's gotten a lot of coverage, and Hillary has even based an entire ad on the comments. ] (]) 12:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

::::I think it's still too soon to determine whether this "elitist" flap merits inclusion in this article or not (it's appropriately covered in the campaign article). Time will tell whether this is remembered and becomes a lasting part of Obama's image, like Hillary's line about "baking cookies" (which is mentioned in her article), or if it's merely a footnote, like Bush asking "Is our children learning?" or talking about gynecologists practicing their love with women. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::::(That last one was a classic, however. Do we have a subarticle for Bush's malapropisms ? If not, we should.) I agree with Josiah's point, however - it certainly belongs in the campaign article, and may or may not belong here - I'm guessing it will last, in which case it will belong here, but it is too soon to know. <strong>] </strong>|<small>]</small> 02:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Wikiquote has two pages with select Bushisms, one at ] (in a section curiously called "grammatical errors" — a lot of them are syntactical or vocabulary errors rather than grammatical errors — but I digress) and another at ], which is apparently supposed to be merged into the former. Here on Misplaced Pages there's ], which you'd think might have a few examples, but apparently they weren't properly cited and got deleted. But we're way off topic now. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 08:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


:::Despite the fact that other editors agree with me and despite the fact that Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopolis agree with me regarding this issue, I have been threatened for making "disruptive edits". This is just one more example of the tactics that certain editors use to maintain their control of the POV of articles. But, if they somehow manage to prevent me from editing or commenting, this will only prove the bias of this reference and this article. ] (]) 10:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Especially now considering Hillary won the important Pennsylvania primary by 10 points, an unexpectedly large victory, regaining momentum, and because this controversy and the Wright issues obviously outweighed Obama massively outspending Hillary, and because the issue was even covered in the debate, I'd say the remarks and the surrounding controversy deserve to be mentioned in this article. ] (]) 06:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
:You mean unexpectedly large as in she was up by 20 points, and was expected to win. I saw exit polls that said Hillary won non-college graduates ("bitter" people) by the same exact margin in Pennsylvania as she did a month ago in Ohio. ''']]''' 06:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
:: and . Also, I'm not sure losing by 10% in a single state in a single election is worthy of mention in a biography covering a 45+ year life. Campaign article is a different thing than this. ''']]''' 06:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

== Relationship with William Ayers ==

Much as the Obama pundits have been deleting this, it's unavoidable that we include Obama's relationship with Ayers, which is going to be a talking point for the rest of his candidacy. Especially considering how poorly he handled the questions about Ayers, and Ayers past, there is no way there won't be questions about it, and people with questions about that will logically come here. {{unsigned|Fovean Author}}

:Regarding, "which is going to be a talking point", please note that ]. ''']]''' 01:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
::And regarding "pundit", I do not think that word means what you think it means. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
:::A pundit (sometimes mispronounced pundant) is someone who offers mass-media opinion, analysis or commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which they are presumed to be knowledgeable. As the term has been increasingly applied to popular media personalities lacking special expertise, however, it can be used in a derogative manner. Pundit is also a slang term for politically biased people attempting to be neutral.
:::Pretty much nailed it, I believe. You two clearly have no intention of allowing Obama's Misplaced Pages page to be anything but a pro-Obama puff piece. --]
::::Rather, can ''you'' state what relevance this has to his ''biography''? ''']]''' 01:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

::::It probably more appropriate for the campaign article, unless it becomes more noteworthy. Obama's campaign has acknowledged they are "friendly", but Obama appears friendly with many people, to many to mention in a biography. ] (]) 01:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::It's probably only appropriate if it becomes noteworthy at all. Politicians know lots of people. It's a simple ] tactic that, ], should be deleted. ''']]''' 01:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::Or it could be more appropriate in the IL state senate article, since they know each other from IL, but I am not sure when the relationship fits, but it has been talked about in context of the presidential campaign. ] (]) 01:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Guilt by association is not sufficient to send someone to jail, but it's a useful and appropriate way to measure a man's character. If you associate with mafioso, you might not be mafia, but we know a little more about your character. If John McCain's 20 year pastor was a racist like David Duke and another long term friend was the Oklahoma bomber it would be newsworthy (at the least).

I don't know why anyone other than an Obama campaign volunteer like Grsz would actively try to hide Obama's associations with a racist (Wright) and a terrorist (Ayers). These two characters (and Obama's wife who is finally proud of America) give important insight into a man which we barely know. ] (]) 11:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, and your point of view is oh so neutral. Was I the only one who argued against it? No. Thanks, ''']]''' 13:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::I wonder if Grsz admits these issues are important now that his candidate got handily spanked in Pennsylvania. ] (]) 14:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

We need to include all relevant information, his associations are a huge part of his public persona and the media has noted this many times. Include this information, it's relevant and it's notable. ] (]) 10:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the Ayers information to the article. Clearly we have consensus - even Grsz's criteria of 'if it proves noteworthy.' There isn't anyone in the old or new news media who aren't 'noting it' now. ] (]) 22:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:No. You don't have a consensus. Notability is not the only criteria for inclusion in a BLP. --] (]) 03:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:: Yes, I DO have a consensus, and 'making Obama look good' is also not a criteria for inclusion. I don't care if this rattles you guys at Obama Campaign Headqarters, but in fact this is a relevant reference to Obama's life, it is WELL documented, and it is pertinant.] (]) 03:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Oh, ''really.'' Did Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and John McCain get a Misplaced Pages account that we don't know about? ''']]''' 03:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

:::Looks like 3 editors have stated objections, 2 of which contribute to this article on a normal basis, and 3 editors want it to be included, none of which contribute to this article on a regular basis. You can fling accusations about who you think is an Obama supporter ad nauseam, but it doesn't really help your arguments. The edits in question are ''not'' pertinent to his life, are not about events that have had a significant influence about any aspect of his life, and they would only serve to perpetuate an ], something that an encyclopedia's role does not entail. If you want people to know about it so badly, go write about it in your blog or make a YouTube video or something. It doesn't belong in his biography. --] (]) 03:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Nope, the IPs are the same editor. ''']]''' 03:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::I was counting fovean, quirky and the IP as a total of 3. Either way 3 to 3 is not the consensus he claims. --] (]) 03:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed the heading about William Ayers because the topic does not deserve its own heading. Whatever verifiable information there is, of course, ought to be included, NPOV as possible, possibly under a heading entitled "controversies," or some other such grouping that could cover other topics as well in such a long article. The point is not to give undue weight to a singular issue for which journalistic coverage and the information generally known to be available do not represent it as equally important as, for instance, the other topics which are given their own headings in the article. - ] (]) 03:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:It ''is'' mentioned - in the article about his campaign, because ''that's'' where it's relevant. ''']]''' 03:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

== Election results ==

Obama ran for the U.S. Senate in 2004 and won. This article provides the election results.

Obama ran for the U.S. House in 2000 and lost. The election results are repeatedly deleted from this article.

Does anything else need to be said?] (]) 02:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
:First, I have no issue posting the results, but wonder if those specific results add anything to the article. The fact that he ran in the primary and lost is mentioned, so why is there a need to mention the vote totals. Why not mention just the percent vote, like the 2004 race? I agree it seems selective to only mention the 2004 race, but the vote totals aren't mentioned for 2004, only percent, so any mention should be consistent. I think there is an argument to be made for including the 2004 percentages, given the notoriety of the race and extension coverage of Obama's win by a large margin. Then again, if results from one race are going to be mentioned, perhaps this article needs an "Electoral History" section, like ], that includes every race for public office. Just a few suggestions.] (]) 03:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
:I just added "receiving just 30% of the primary vote." at the end of the section on the 2000 race. Mentioning results makes more sense as part of the opening sentence, rather than as an add on. Rush received 61%, but I don't know if that number is necessary, since the sentence says Obama lost. If we mention Rush's percentage or results, than we'd need to mention the other two candidates who also ran (there were 4 total). The link to the FEC page on the election should be sufficient for anyone wanting more detail.] (]) 03:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

:::Then I guess we'd better edit the following two sentences in this article:

:::"He received over 52% of the vote in the March 2004 primary, <s>emerging 29% ahead of his nearest Democratic rival.</s>"

:::"Obama received 70% of the vote <s>to Keyes's 27%</s>, the largest electoral victory in Illinois history."] (]) 03:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

::::Giving details about the failed Congressional run, other than the fact that it was unsuccessful, seems to be ]. -- ] (]) 16:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::No, in this case it is providing useful and relevent information. ] does not apply. ] (]) 16:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::I'm unaware of any other politicians whose Misplaced Pages articles only describe their successful races and not their unsuccessful ones. This should be blindingly simple.] (]) 16:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

::::::It is neither useful (what can it be used for?) or relevant (he lost, years ago, so how is it relevant?) actually, so ] absolutely applies. Apparently, this is another POV push. -- ] (]) 16:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::::If these details really ''are'' important, incorporate all of them into an election record table section (like most other articles). -- ] (]) 16:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I'm not aware that the election results for state legislature are available online. What are available online are election results for federal congressional races. Saying how much a person won or lost by, in a race for federal office, is about the most notable thing that could possibly be included in this article. Please beware of ]. Also, please try to show a modicum of neutrality here. If you're going to delete percentages for Obama's congressional race, then also please delete percentages for his US Senate race.] (]) 16:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::I disagree that the congressional race is notable, especially since he was a relatively unknown politician running against a popular 4-termer. In contrast, the Senate campaign is highly notable due to the landslide victory (although all the silly details about Jack Ryan's divorce are definitely ''not''). This is not a neutrality discussion here, but a discussion about excessive detail. -- ] (]) 16:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::If this were an article about something more general, then you might have a point about notability. But this article is about Barack Obama, and the topic under discussion here isn't whether he ate a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on Election Day in 2000. He ran for Congress, which would be a significant event in ''anybody's'' political career. It's pretty obvious that properly sourced material on his failed House run should be included, and I am completely mystified as to why you've arrived at the position you hold. --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 16:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::I am also mystified. My side of this conversation includes both notability and neutrality issues; the US House election results are notable and neutral. Obama lost a race for the United States House of Representatives in a landslide, and that obviously should be mentioned here in this article. It's plainly wrong to only mention landslides that a politician won and not those that the politician lost. Maybe we should accompany the 2000 election results with a statement that Obama was a relatively unknown politician running against a popular 4-termer, but to just whitewash the election results seems extremely non-neutral, especially considering some of the minutae that's already included in this article (e.g. Obama's summer job at a law firm, the University of Hawaii campus where his parents met, the resemblance of some of his relatives to Bernie Mac, the etymology of his first name, et cetera).] (]) 17:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
How about:

<tt>
In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the ] from Chicago's 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's ], including ]-] and ].<nowiki><ref name=Jackson20070403></nowiki>{{cite news | first=David | last=Jackson | coauthors=Ray Long | title=Showing His Bare Knuckles | date=] ] | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0704030881apr04,0,6468332.story | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}}<nowiki></ref></nowiki> Following the surprise return of incumbent ] to the contest in late 1995, Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominations of Palmer and three other Democratic candidates, each of whose names were removed from the primary ballot due to petition irregularities.<nowiki><ref name=Jackson20070403 /></nowiki> In 2000, he made an unsuccessful Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate ], receiving 30% of the vote to Rush's 61%.<nowiki><ref></nowiki>{{cite news | first=Janny | last=Scott | title=A Streetwise Veteran Schooled Young Obama | date=] ] | url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/politics/09obama.html | work=The New York Times | accessdate=2008-04-20}}<nowiki></ref></nowiki> Rush and another rival candidate had charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns.<nowiki><ref></nowiki>{{cite news | first=Edward | last=McClelland | title=How Obama Learned to Be a Natural | date=] ] | url=http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/12/obama_natural/ | work=Salon | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | first=Richard | last=Wolffe | coauthors=Daren Briscoe | title=Across the Divide | date=] ] | publisher=MSNBC | url=http://www.newsweek.com/id/33156 | work=Newsweek | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | first=Scott | last=Helman | title=Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb | date=] ] | url=http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/10/12/early_defeat_launched_a_rapid_political_climb/ | work=Boston Globe | accessdate=2008-04-20}}<nowiki></ref></nowiki>
</tt>

--] (]) 17:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

::Looks fine to me. I'd put a paragraph break after the word "irregularities".] (]) 18:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
:::The jump to the 2000 election is too abrupt. Perhaps include the 1995 results and a brief synopsis of Obama's IL senate career between 1995 and 2000 to ease the transition a bit. --] <sup>]</sup> 18:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Thanks for your replies, Ferrylodge and Bobblehead. Any additional text from that either of you feel merits inclusion/development in this summary section? --] (]) 22:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I don't see any other information in Andy's version that is necessary. It might be appropriate for the main article, but the detail is unnecessary for a summary section. --] <sup>]</sup> 00:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::I agree with Bobblehead that the other stuff from Andy’s version is not necessary. However, there may be some more good stuff in the NY Times article by Janny Scott, to provide the transition that Bobblehead requested. For example: “he was frustrated at the Statehouse. He had distinguished himself as an ethics reformer there, but it was difficult for Democrats to get much done in a period of virtual Republican lockdown.” So he ran for Congress.

::::::Also, the notion that Obama was not suffieciently rooted in Chicago’s black neighborhoods seems to have been class-based rather than race-based. Janny Scott quotes Eric Adelstein, a media consultant in Chicago who worked on the Rush campaign: “It was much more a function of class, not race….Nobody said he’s ‘not black enough.’ They said he’s a professor, a Harvard elite who lives in Hyde Park.”

::::::And lastly, there’s this nugget reported by Janny Scott: “President Clinton’s endorsement of Mr. Rush, an early supporter of Mr. Clinton, dealt a final blow. According to Mr. Adelstein, Mr. Clinton — after a personal request from Mr. Rush — overrode his own policy of not endorsing candidates in primaries.”

::::::I wouldn't delay making the edit you suggested, Hailfire, but you may want to subsequently tweak it to use some of this additional info.] (]) 00:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::::::: Him losing a political race it noteworthy, it shows the evolution of his carrer in office. No other politicians article would not show a race they lost at, this is obvious bias. ] (]) 09:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

::::::::It is certainly noteworthy enough to mention it, but there is no need to go into the specific details because the event is pretty minor when taken into context with the body of his entire political career. Readers who are interested in the specifics will be able to find them detailed in the linked sub-article and the accompanying references. -- ] (]) 13:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

== Malia's birth year revisited ==

{{seealso|Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 15#Children in infobox}}

Malia Ann Obama's birth year in the infobox was recently changed from 1998 to 1999. I realized that our sources for 1998 weren't as solid as they might be. (They're a from Obama's campaign website, which has her celebrating her 9th birthday on July 4, 2007 and a '''' article which gives her age as 8 on January 20, 2007.) On the other hand, the 1999 birth year is widely found on the web, including on from ], which explicitly says that she was born in 1999. How do we resolve this contradiction? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 05:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

::On a ] search I have found 4 newspaper articles giving 1999 as the birth date.
::* SOUTH CAROLINA DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY THE CANDIDATES Augusta Chronicle, 25 January 2008, 381 words, (English)
::* NEW HAMPSHIRE PRIMARY ; It's Obamarama in New Hampshire, Boston Herald, 6 January 2008, 634 words, MARGERY EAGAN
::*Building Blocs St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9 December 2007, 1831 words, By Kevin McDermott
::* Obama history The State Journal-Register, 10 February 2007
--] (]) 01:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== Stupid edit war ==

I've blocked Scjessey and Andy for 12 hours for edit warring about the sentence "But it was not all civil rights work—he also appeared in court to defend a developer against charges it was failing to provide heat to tenants and another time to contest a demand that a healthcare corporation pay for baby-sitting (his client paid up)." As far as I can tell in all the reversions back and forth there was no attempt to discuss this or reach a compromise. That's not the way we do things here. If the pattern of edit warring and tendentious editing continues, I won't hesitate to block anyone (on either side of the dispute) for longer periods. It's quite simple: if you're reverted, especially if you're reverted more than once, discuss the edit on the talk page. That goes for everybody. OK? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:Not so silly. Scjessey was reverting considerably more than the sentence you mention. And while you accused both of us of violating 3RR, Scjessey did ( and I did not (). And which of ''my'' edits are "tendentious editing"? ] (]) 14:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::I broke the rules, and I apologize. Josiah was perfectly correct to issue a 3RR block for my actions, and I see it as a reminder not to let the behavior of a ] with more ] get to me. To partially defend myself, I will say that I have tried to discuss the disputed content repeatedly over the last week or so, most recently in , but I have been unable to get any response other than reversions. I have decided to let others fight this fight for the time being, and I will busy myself with other aspects of the article. -- ] (]) 14:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::Er, Andy. At least one of those "examples" of mine is not a revert at all, and another is one of ''your'' edits. Besides, you take part in what I call "long game" edit warring whereby you add your biased text (or revert back to it) over and over again, taking care to spread it out so as not to get into 3RR trouble, and avoiding any discussion or consensus-building. And in answer to your question, almost ''all'' of your edits are tendentious. -- ] (]) 14:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:::I've corrected the diff that pointed to the wrong edit. The other three are all reverts, as is the corrected diff. Four in all. If you think that one wasn't you had best learn why you are wrong. And the question was not directed at you. ] (]) 15:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::::The first of my edits you list is a removal of content per ], and not a reversion. Even if it ''were'' a reversion, it would be treated as a "consecutive" reversion - the same thing that enabled you to wriggle out of your last 3RR issues. -- ] (]) 15:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::A "removal of content per ]" is a revert. See "What is a revert?" in ]. And it is not consecutive with any of the other diffs I list. It is consecutive with a preceding revert which I did not separately list since the two reverts together constituted only one of your 4 reverts. ] (]) 13:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::Oh '''whatever'''! Do you want me to give you a barnstar for your contribs-haunting prowess? Get over yourself and start making ''useful'' contributions. -- ] (]) 13:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

::::Well, Andy.. good to see you learned something from your short block. Or not... Adding the exact same text that you were just blocked for edit warring over is a blockable offense. The general theory is that if a person is blocked for edit warring over something, they will learn to actually use the talk page instead of trying to force their preferred text onto (or keep unpreferred text off) an article. Both of you need to realize that three reverts is not a right and that you can (and will) get blocked for fewer than three reverts. This is particularly true if you are just recently got off a block and make the exact same edit without getting consensus on the talk page first. --] <sup>]</sup> 15:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm less interested in the letter of the 3RR than its spirit. As Scjessey pointed out on my talk page, ] says, "Editors may still be blocked ''even if they have made three or fewer reverts in a 24 hour period'', if their behavior is clearly disruptive." The back-and-forth over this material was clearly an edit war, and not the first on this page between these individuals. Scjessey did attempt some discussion on the matter of the tax returns, but I didn't see any prior discussion from anyone about the tenant and babysitter disputes now being discussed below. Previous attempts to get the parties to engage in discussion on other subjects had not been successful, so I decided to use administrative measures. If anyone disagrees with this decision, please feel free to start a discussion at ] or, if you think the matter serious enough, open an ]. I'm a member of ], and my understanding of what that means is ]. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 15:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:Get interested in the letter. You're engaged in this content dispute too, in case you haven't noticed. The question is at what level do the reverts become "clearly disruptive", and as a engaged reverter you are ill-positioned to go beyond clear policy when the result is to impose your own wishes. The clear policy in this case is 3RR. You wrote on my page, "...however you count the reversions...", as if there was some question as to how I counted the reversions. There is not. I did not exceed 3RR. Scjessey has exceeded 3RR on multiple occasions. Grsz11 exceeded 4RR just yesterday. Your biases are showing. Restrain yourself. ] (]) 14:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

::And I have blocked both Scjessey and Grsz when their edits violated the spirit of 3RR. There's edit warring on all sides here, and I seem to be the only administrator paying attention. I will continue to use my administrative judgment to make sure that the debate is carried out in a manner compatible with Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

:::I didn't know about your block of Grsz since I had decided not to report his 3RR violation and you had not mentioned his block here, that I saw. But neither he nor Scjessey merely violated "the spirit of 3RR". They violated 3RR by performing four or more reverts in a 24 hour period. I did not. The fine impartiality of punishing alike those who break the rules and those who obey the rules is lost on me. Again, the list of editors of this page who edit war includes you. Deciding when editing that does not violate explicit policy is disruptive is something I again strongly suggest you leave to the uninvolved. There's a noticeboard where you can request such help. ] (]) 13:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

::::Blah, blah, blah ''ad infinitum''. The purpose of ] is to prevent edit warring, and we were both edit warring. If you engaged in proper discussions and consensus building ''before'' making tendentious edits, the edit warring probably never would have happened. Rather than obsessing about the minutiae of the three-revert rule, try talking to people and reaching a compromise. -- ] (]) 13:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

::::(edit conflict) A post like that is not necessary. I'm sure Josiah's trying to do what he can to ensure this doesn't get out of hand. That he's involved is probably a good thing. An uninvolved admin might not see the patterns of behavior necessary to make an accurate judgment on what is or isn't disruptive. I could see how trying to add negative, irrelevant information to a BLP (and especially one with the traffic this one gets) in absence of due discussion or defiance of consensus, not just a few times, but on a consistent basis, would be deemed disruptive. Add to that a demonstratively combative behavior on talk pages, and yeah I guess I could understand why he might block you even if you didn't technically have 4 reverts. There have been cases where editors have been blocked because they simply wore out other editors in the community, even though they may have broken few or no rules. I'm not saying you're in danger of this, but adopting a more positive, less cynical attitude would certainly not hurt how others view and treat you as an editor. --] (]) 14:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

== Lawyer days ==

"But it was not all civil rights work—he also appeared in court to defend a developer against charges it was failing to provide heat to tenants and another time to contest a demand that a healthcare corporation pay for baby-sitting (his client paid up)." is what andyvphil wanted to add to the early life and career section. In its current form, it just makes him look like a civil right activist. Clearly it wasn't all positive, though. I think this edit deserves consideration, so as to balance out that section. ] (]) 05:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:The source for that sentence, , says, "Obama spent about 70% of his time on voting rights, civil rights and employment, generally as a junior associate. The rest of his time was spent on matters related to real estate transactions, filing incorporation papers and defending clients against minor lawsuits." The question I'd ask is whether the current wording is an accurate portrayal of Obama's work as a lawyer. I think it probably is, and that the details of the babysitting case and the landlord/tenant dispute are too trivial for the main article. They're appropriate for ], but I don't really think they're noteworthy enough to merit inclusion here. To me it's not about balancing "positive" and "negative" cases, it's about including significant cases and leaving less significant cases for the daughter article. I'm open to arguments about why a babysitter suing for payment is as important as the implementation of the Motor Voter act. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 05:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:The sentence that andyvphil wanted to add, as you quoted it, is written in poor encyclopedic style. Aside from that, I agree with Josiah on the relative case notability. --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 07:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::The lede currently reads "A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, Obama worked as a community organizer, university lecturer, and civil rights lawyer before serving in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004." As notes this representation ("civil rights lawyer") of this part of Obama's history "is fundamental to his autobiography, displayed on his campaign website and woven into his appeals for votes." The whole point of the LA Times article is that this is misleading, that his work for ''Davis, Miner'' was "not all civil rights" and other do-goodism, and that sometimes his representation was ''against'' the interests of the poor and powerless. The alleged wider significance of the cases is beside the point. The subject is the parameters of Obama's claim that he was a "civil rights lawyer". And NPOV requires that we not merely echo Obama's spin. ] (]) 15:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:::We are talking about detailing minor cases that come up in the normal course of any defense attorney's workload, and they are simply not notable enough for this BLP. Just cut out "civil rights" from that sentence of the introduction and leave all this pointless detail out of the article, thus restoring your perceived neutrality. I'd be cool with that, because I think that Obama was a "lawyer chiefly concerned with civil rights cases" as opposed to a "civil rights lawyer" (which I agree is misleading). -- ] (]) 15:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::::I approve of Grsz's removal of "civil rights" from the lede. I think that should satisfy the POV concerns. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::::I agree with Scjessey's solution here, as well as the assertion that "civil rights lawyer" carries special meaning beyond that of a lawyer who sometimes worked on civil rights cases. --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 16:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

] added this sentence again. I repeat my opinion that these cases aren't important enough for this summary style article, although they're appropriate for ]. Also, since the lede no longer says "civil rights lawyer", there's no assertion to "balance" with negative-seeming court cases. If there were "negative" cases as important as the Motor Voter or making sure that the ward boundaries were in keeping with the Civil Rights Act, I'd support their inclusion — but these two cases (a babysitter suing for wages and a tenant/landlord dispute) just aren't significant enough. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 07:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

:As I've already pointed out, the cases are important to place Obama's own claim that he was a "civil rights lawyer" in context. Someone encountering that claim and turning to this article to see if it is true ought to find an NPOV treatment of his career at ''Davis, Minor''. Which we have RS stating was more than the work he did on the Motor Voter, Civil Rights and whistleblower termination cases, which is all you want to mention. None of those particular cases were of national importance, so far as I am aware, nor was his work of particular significance. That's not why we mention them. We mention them to describe this period in Obama's life. Which turns out to involve defending slumlords and benefit denials when it was the other side representing the poor against his firm's clients. Mentioning only his politically correct cases misrepresents this period in his life, and doing so in a way consistent with "his campaign website and... his appeals for votes" stinks of POV pushing. nb:] is ''not'' satisfied by mentioning '''neither''' of two points of view. "NPOV requires... the fair, analytical description of '''all''' relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence." ] (]) 14:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

::It would be fair to ''briefly'' include mentions of a variety of ''notable'' cases Obama worked on, so that readers can get an idea of the full scope of cases he worked on during his career as a lawyer. There are two problems with your specific edit, though: one, it's not clear that the cases you're mentioning truly are notable. In fact, the source actually categorizes the cases you mentioned as "routine legal matters" and "minor lawsuits". And two, the tone of the sentence at the top of this article is inappropriate. "But it was not all civil rights work" makes an unnecessary conclusion, especially since the context of the article doesn't maintain that Obama was a civil rights attorney; and "his client paid up" sounds particularly unprofessional in tone. --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 14:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

:::Working as an associate lawyer, Obama would probably have been ''given'' his cases. Obama did what regular lawyers do (work for anyone who will pay), but some of those cases were notable because they involved civil rights. I don't think that is sufficient justification to call him a "civil rights lawyer" (as I have said previously), but neither do I think it is sufficient justification to add the cases that Andy has clearly selected to cast Obama's lawyering in a negative light. Blatant POV push, to my mind. -- ] (]) 15:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

:::It appears that Andy has, once again, ignored the ongoing discussion and again. His tortured "But... also" construct is back again. And like I said before, a blatant POV push. -- ] (]) 15:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

::Again, none of the work is mentioned because ''what Obama did'' was particularly notable. I've quoted Obama on what he did. I've followed the RS in providing a more nuanced description. NPOV is '''not the absence of POV'''. Reread the policy if you haven't grasped this yet. ] (]) 16:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

:::As Dachannien points out, there are two problems with this addition: first, the way that the "But it was not all civil rights work" sentence seems to draw an editorial conclusion, and second, the focus on non-notable cases. Mentioning these specific cases here would be like talking about what style of hats Harry S. Truman sold in Independence, Missouri in ], or listing episodes of '']'' in ]. Personally, I don't think that the characterization "civil rights lawyer" necessarily implies that he worked solely or exclusively on civil rights cases, just that that was the focus of his work. But of the text indicates the sort of work he did, including an account of about how much was "civil rights"-related and how much was the sort of standard lawyering that pays the bills.
:::The Motor Voter Act and the ward redistricting are notable because they represent local implementation of federal civil rights laws. (I'm less sure about the hospital whistleblower case, which is more of local interest.) The pre-Andy text already indicates that not all the work Obama did was civil rights-related: NPOV does not demand that we cherry-pick the least flattering (or most flattering) aspects of an individual's career and highlight them, regardless of importance. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Exactly why are cases that "represent local implementation of federal civil rights laws" more notable than his defense of slumlords ''to Obama's biography'' when none of the work he did on the former was significant? Obama's own characterization of this work is reported by multiple reliable sources and I can see no reason to omit it. Then NPOV requires that other characterizations of his work, as found in RS, be reported. "But it was not all civil rights work" is what a RS says, and seems uncontroversial to me. Are you contending that defending his client against the charge of not providing heat in winter ''was'' civil rights work? ] (]) 13:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::No, I'm claiming that it's already covered by the sentence "He also spent time on real estate transactions, filing incorporation papers and defending clients against minor lawsuits." Giving details of those minor lawsuits is unnecessary detail in a ] article. I'd say that implementation of civil rights laws is more notable because it has national implications, in a way that a landlord/tenant dispute doesn't. Should we also include the time he defended a nonprofit which owns low-rent housing against a slip-and-fall claim? That's just as trivial.

:::::Honestly, I'd rather have the specific civil rights cases removed from this article than have the trivial details of Obama's other lawyer work cluttering it up. (My preference, however, is to include at least the ACORN case and the ward boundaries.) —] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

::::::I think andy's addition is a fair balance to the obviously positive description of his lawyer work in the sentence before it. And I don't think it's right for us to determine if that's a minor lawsuit. It would be important to a lot of people, especially the tenants he was defending his client against.] (]) 21:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::::No. Andy's "fair balance" addition is just a POV push, and I've restored the original text. You have to ask yourself if a minor piece of lawyering is significant in the context of Obama's entire life to Misplaced Pages's readership. Moreover, this information is presented in full in the sub-article, and there is no way we can go into so much detail following the summary style of the main article. Better to cut it ''all'' out than burden it with irrelevant, insignificant details. -- ] (]) 21:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I think he meant the addition was "fair and balanced", which we all know to signify undisputed neutrality. --] (]) 21:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::I'm not sure if you're trying to mock me with vague comparisons to Fox News, but I don't have anything to gain from editing this article with POV. Scjessey and Grsz are the self-pronounced liberal democrats. What I meant was, if we're going to have vague pro-Obama lawyer information that nobody cares about, we need to be including the equally, if not moreso significant, not-so-pro-Obama lawyer information that casts him in a different light.] (]) 11:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::I don't care what Scjessey and Grsz identify as politically. If they contribute to the encyclopedia and understand what it takes to maintain the integrity of a BLP, their contributions and input as editors are wanted. You're just kind of spouting opinion statements as if they're truth that everybody sees and agrees with. I certainly don't see the lawyer information as "pro-Obama" information that "nobody cares about". Obviously you care enough about it to raise issue with it on his wikipedia article. As far as your suggestion that "we need to be including the equally, if not moreso significant, not-so-pro-Obama lawyer information that casts him in a different light," our job is not to cast him in contrasting lights or to cast him in a light at all. Our job is to summarize his life, and that doesn't include going into insignificant detail about minor events/periods. Again, this is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid or a magazine or a blog or a Newsweek article. This is not a platform for Obama supporters or detractors to paint a picture about Obama for potential voters to read. Biographies are for people who are interested in knowing about someone's life, so in consideration of this, we are to follow the standards set in the ] guidelines. --] (]) 15:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

A glance at of this period of Obama's life may be illuminating. They've got one sentence, "He also worked as an attorney on civil rights issues." Clearly their editors think that Obama's work on civil rights cases is noteworthy, but his other lawyering isn't. Can anyone find a reliable source which includes this sort of detail ''in a summary of Obama's life''? Because I can't. Again, I'd think it more appropriate to remove the details of the civil rights cases than to add details of less important but "negative"-seeming cases. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 01:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

:The fact that the ''Britannica'' author is oblivious to the fact that he is repeating Obama's POV does not entitle us to do the same. Misplaced Pages has higher standards for NPOV. The author of ''LA Times'' article that we are using as a source for this section thought that the cases we are arguing over were noteworthy precisely because they contrast with Obama's own (and the ''Britannica'''s) account. And I agree with the RS, not you. And NPOV policy, again, requires that we report the POV on this issue as found in the RS, not just echo Obama's spin, which is what the version you prefer does. You may well prefer deleting all POV in preference to allowing non-pro-Obama POV to see the light of day, but that is counter to policy and is not an option you will be given. ] (]) 09:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

:Apparently you have absolutely no problem with the information that presents a pro-Obama POV, until someone wants to counter that with a different, equally significant POV about the same subject, and then suddenly all that information should be suppressed. While I don't have as much time to edit this article as I'd like, or to do research, I have to commend Andy on the effort he continues to put into bringing this article back up to FA and NPOV status. ] (]) 11:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

::Moving non-essential information to a daughter article is not the same as suppressing it. This article is a summary, and as such should summarize rather than give details. It's true that I've been reacting to brushfires rather than evaluating each sentence in the article on the whole. That's because my time is limited and I do have real-life concerns to deal with. But when I see someone adding non-vital information in a misguided effort at NPOV, I'm going to respond in accordance with Misplaced Pages guidelines and policy.

::In this case, there are two questions: is the article neutral in its point of view, and does it give appropriate weight to events in the subject's life? In response to the first question, my initial opinion was that it was neutral, but if there is a consensus or a convincing argument otherwise I'm willing to go with that. If there is a consensus that the section is non-neutral, we have to decide how to resolve the imbalance, in which case the second question must be considered.

::To take an absurd example: it would be possible to find reliable sources discussing Obama's ]. It would be possible for the article to become imbalanced by quoting such sources either suggesting that he was "giving Hillary the finger" or not. However, the proper resolution of such an imbalance on such a trivial matter would not be to go into the details I mentioned at ], but to delete the mention of this episode entirely. Now, obviously the details of Obama's work as a lawyer are more important than that. But in terms of interpretation of NPOV, the matter is the same. Not every perceived imbalance should be addressed by adding ''more'' material. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

== WWE ==

Should the fact he and his presidential candidate rivals were on Monday Night Raw as part of their campaign? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Not that notable for this article. Maybe for the ] article, but even that is pushing it. --] <sup>]</sup> 15:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::You'd have to mention candidate appearances on The View, Ellen, The Daily Show, The Colbert Report, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, The Today Show, and a whole bunch of others if you were going to include this "joke" appearance. Not notable in ''any'' article, to be frank. -- ] (]) 15:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Wrong again. Appearing on a wrestling show is a new and notable low in candidate dignity, a step beyond talk shows. Certainly belongs in the campaign article. But unless it become iconic (like Bill's sax playing) not here, yet. ] (]) 14:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
:::I agree it probably shouldn't be mentioned, but it's more notable than those other appearances in that they all appeared on the same night, and presidential candidates really don't go on WWE. ] (]) 11:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

::::I can't be surprised that you two are pushing for inclusion of this. I love Andy's logic: If it is a "new and notable low in candidate dignity", it "certainly belongs in the campaign article". Nevermind if it's actually ''true''. It takes all of 10 seconds to figure out that they didn't actually go on WWE, but were merely parodied by what I'm assuming to be wrestlers. --] (]) 15:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

== New addition proposed ==

I think it's appropriate, to measure the character of this man, that we include the fact that many people believe he gave Hillary the finger during a speech the other day. is a clip from YouTube we can use a source. It's important people know the truth behind this man. ''']]''' 13:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:LOL. That's pretty funny, Grsz. I was once threatened with being '''fired''' because I always use my middle finger to push my glasses back up my nose, although I don't even realize I'm doing it. I notice Obama isn't wearing a flag pin either. Shame on him! Seriously though, I would be vigorously opposed to the inclusion of this "incident" in the article, and indeed in ''any'' article, because it is obviously a nonsense claim made by a few desperate Clinton supporters. -- ] (]) 15:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::I'm assuming that Grsz is joking here, but we've had people trying to insert things just as absurd. So, just in case anyone thinks this is a serious proposal: video shot from another angle shows that Obama was scratching his face with two fingers, not one. See analysis by ] and photo . And if you don't trust Media Matters because they're a liberal group, watch the raw video — the finger-scratch is at about 20:56. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Isn't there an obscene gesture in some countries involving two fingers? ;) Anyway, thanks for the levity, Grsz :) --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 16:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Obviously it wasn't meant that way. Why is anyone bringing it up and trying to analyze or defend it? Is it so important to you to make sure that ''everybody'' knows Obama was really just scratching his face? Waste of talk page space. ] (]) 06:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

== State Legislature weight issues ==

Andy's current text:
<blockquote>In 1995 ], ] for Chicago's 13th District, ran for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. House of Representatives seat then held by ], who had been indicted for sexual abuse of an underage campaign worker. With a degree of formality that is disputed, she anointed Obama as her chosen successor to represent the areas of Chicago's ], including ]-] and ], that constituted the 13th District. After she was defeated by ] in a special election held November 2005 she filed to retain the Democratic nomination for her Senate seat. Obama challenged her petitions, and that of the other three candidates, and disqualified enough signatures so that he was unopposed in the March 1996 primary election. In the heavily Democratic 13th District the general election was a formality.<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/religion/chi-0704030881apr04,1,3119388,print.story | title=Showing his bare knuckles | work=Chicago Tribune | author= David Jackson | coauthors= Ray Long | date=] ]| accessdate=2008-04-21}}</ref><ref name=Jackson20070403>{{cite news | first=David | last=Jackson | coauthors=Ray Long | title=Obama Knows His Way Around a Ballot | date=] ] | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,1,57567.story | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref></blockquote>
Surely this is a gross violation of ], given that it is mostly about ] and her time in the Illinois State Senate. What was wrong with the previous version? And what has the Mel Reynolds sex abuse case got to do with Obama? -- ] (]) 15:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:Nothing, as far as I can tell. As for the larger question, I'd think this material would be useful context for ], but excessive detail here. The same goes for the detail about Obama's unsuccessful House race against Bobby Rush — I don't see how the death of Bobby Rush's son is important enough to merit inclusion here. All this should go in ]. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::I don't think it's a ] problem, since it's presenting (mostly) facts rather than viewpoints. Still, as Josiah said, it does go into depth that is far beyond the scope of this article, including the detail concerning Mel Reynolds and the detailed info on what neighborhoods constitute the 13th district. There are also potential POV issues regarding the "anointing" of Obama and the "formality" of the general election, both of which are loaded terms not appropriate in this context. On a side note, was "2005" meant to be "1995"? --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 16:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The current text is <blockquote>In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the ] from Chicago's 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's ], including ]-] and ].<ref name=Jackson20070403>{{cite news | first=David | last=Jackson | coauthors=Ray Long | title=Showing His Bare Knuckles | date=] ] | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0704030881apr04,0,6468332.story | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> Following the surprise return of incumbent ] to the contest in late 1995, Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominations of Palmer and three other Democratic candidates, each of whose names were removed from the primary ballot due to petition irregularities.<ref name=Jackson20070403 /> In 2000, he made an unsuccessful Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate ], receiving 30% of the vote to Rush's 61%.<ref>{{cite news | first=Janny | last=Scott | title=A Streetwise Veteran Schooled Young Obama | date=] ] | url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/politics/09obama.html | work=The New York Times | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> Rush and another rival candidate had charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns.<ref>{{cite news | first=Edward | last=McClelland | title=How Obama Learned to Be a Natural | date=] ] | url=http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/12/obama_natural/ | work=Salon | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | first=Richard | last=Wolffe | coauthors=Daren Briscoe | title=Across the Divide | date=] ] | publisher=MSNBC | url=http://www.newsweek.com/id/33156 | work=Newsweek | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | first=Scott | last=Helman | title=Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb | date=] ] | url=http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/10/12/early_defeat_launched_a_rapid_political_climb/ | work=Boston Globe | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref></blockquote><br>
I am attempting, as a first step, to replace this with:<blockquote>In 1995 ], ] for Chicago's 13th District, ran for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. House of Representatives seat then held by ], who had been indicted for sexual abuse of an underage campaign worker. With a degree of formality that is disputed, she anointed Obama as her chosen successor to represent the areas of Chicago's ], including ]-] and ], that constituted the 13th District. After she was defeated by ] in a special election held November 1995 she filed to retain the Democratic nomination for her Senate seat. Obama challenged her petitions, and that of the other three candidates, and disqualified enough signatures so that he was unopposed in the March 1996 primary election. In the heavily Democratic 13th District the general election was a formality.<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/religion/chi-0704030881apr04,1,3119388,print.story | title=Showing his bare knuckles | work=Chicago Tribune | author= David Jackson | coauthors= Ray Long | date=] ]| accessdate=2008-04-21}}</ref><ref name=Jackson20070403>{{cite news | first=David | last=Jackson | coauthors=Ray Long | title=Obama Knows His Way Around a Ballot | date=] ] | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,1,57567.story | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref><br>
In 2000, Obama made a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate ]. Rush had been badly defeated in the February 1999 Chicago Mayoral election by ] and was thought to be vulnerable. Rush charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns, and also benefitted from an outpouring of sympathy when his son was shot to death shortly before the election. Obama, who started with just a 10% name recognition, got only 31% of the votes, losing by a more than 2-to-1 margin despite winning among white voters.<ref>Federal Election Commission, . See also: {{cite web|url=http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14502364|title=Obama's Loss May Have Aided White House Bid}} and {{cite news | first=Janny | last=Scott | title=A Streetwise Veteran Schooled Young Obama | date=] ] | url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/politics/09obama.html | work=The New York Times | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref><ref name=McClelland20070212> {{cite news | first=Edward | last=McClelland | title=How Obama Learned to Be a Natural | date=] ] | url=http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/12/obama_natural/ | work =Salon | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | first=Richard | last=Wolffe | coauthors= Daren Briscoe | title=Across the Divide | date=] ] | publisher=MSNBC | url=http://www.newsweek.com/id/33156 | work=Newsweek | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | first=Scott | last=Helman | title=Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb | date=] ] | url=http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/10/12/early_defeat_launched_a_rapid_political_climb/ | work=Boston Globe | accessdate=2008-04-20}} and {{cite web|url=http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2007-10-24-3157940059_x.htm|title=Obama learned from failed Congress run}}</ref></blockquote><br>First, Palmer's return was not a "surprise". She was the incumbent and had evinced no desire to retire from politics if she didn't win, so it could have been a surprise only if her loss had been a surprise. But she was facing both the Jesse Jackson and Emil Jones political machines and could be expected to and did finish third, and once the election was decided and filing for renomination was no longer a premature admission of loss she could be expected to and did so file. The idea that the seat was "vacant" and that her deciding to run for her own seat was a "suprise" is pro-Obama Kool-Aid designed to minimize the degree to which he is perceived to have stabbed her in the back.

Second, the idea that devoting more than two sentences apiece to Obama's first two runs for office is, in the biography of a politician, undue weight is absurd. The real problem is that the two paragraphs I've expanded to are as yet inadequate. No mention, e.g., of his wife's desire after the defeat that he retire and take up a foundation job instead.

Third, the idea that no details are important enough to mention -- he ran, he won, it was a long time ago, who cares -- is a view so idiotic that I would have thought only Scjessey was capable of expressing without embarassment. We should mention Rush's son getting shot for the same reason we mention Ryan's sex scandal: Obama's life was affected by these events. ] (]) 14:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

:Well first I'd like to thank you for the personal attack, Andy. I'd expect nothing less from you. Secondly, I must reiterate my comment above - in a biography of Barack Obama, why do you insist on trying to shoehorn details about other people into the text? First you want to tell us a bedtime story about Alice Palmer, then you want to regale us with details about her predecessor. What possible connection to Obama is the Mel Reynolds sex abuse stuff? Your justification for this is that the current text isn't long enough. So your solution is to add tangential (or completely unrelated) content as '''filler''' material? Maybe you should go back and read some of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. -- ] (]) 14:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

::I've tightened-up the first paragraph, partly to address Andy's concerns about Palmer's "surprise return", but also to note that the 13th District is tilted heavily towards the Democrats, allowing the reader to imply that Obama's eventual election was a formality. Obviously the link to the sub-article provides all of Andy's other gory details if the reader desires them. -- ] (]) 19:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It might be appropriate to mention '''briefly''' that Palmer had planned to run for Congress but was defeated in the special election primary, and only then decided to petition for her old State Senate seat. However, the detail of the Mel Reynolds sex scandal is well outside the purview of this article — it would be like going into the details of the Lewinsky scandal in the main ] article. Similarly, I don't think we need to mention Rush's son here any more than the death of John Edwards' son is mentioned in ]. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 04:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

:You don't know when Palmer decided to file. Presumably she intended to file all along if she lost, and she probably knew she was going to lose well before the special election. The point is that Obama had very little chance running against her but got into office by a neat bit of political assassination. ''Et tu, Obama.'' And I'd be ok with "...by ], who had been indicted in a sex scandal..." but that's not the kind of change to the text that I'm seeing. My proposals are already "brief". Mentioning names and specifics is what enables the reader of different histories to tie them together, and is also the opportunity for helpful blue links. ] (]) 14:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

::The FAR indicated that the article had ''too many'' blue links, not too few. And the names and specifics which tie different histories together can and should be found in the daughter article. This article is about the big picture, and Mel Reynolds really isn't a significant part of that big picture.

::As for Dachannien's revert, you should take it as an indication that there is no consensus supporting the changes you want to make, and refrain from adding them again until after a consensus has been reached. See ]. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:54, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

:::What ] calls "bold edits" are designed to attract attention (see the popup over the top lines of the flowchart). Yes, BRD (which is essay, not policy) suggests you get your reverter to make a compromise edit but it is silent on what to do if compromise is unreasonably witheld. There is no requirement in policy that you wait to repeat the process of trying to attract attention "until after a consensus has been reached" on the talk page, never mind that "Local consensus" (which "can change) "is currently opposed to making any changes whatsoever" and will obduately refuse NPOV forever. The speed limit is 3RR, and provided you obey it there is nothing disruptive about periodically repeating "bold edits" in an attempt to draw attention to an issue. ] (]) 14:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

::::You are mistaken (or as you would say, "wrong again"). There are '''no Misplaced Pages policies, guidelines or essays''' that say it is okay to be a disruptive editor, which is what you are. You constantly ignore consensus, you constantly ignore compromise, you constantly ignore requests for meaningful discussions, you constantly use rude or insensitive language in edit summaries and you comment in a combative, bombastic manner. With very few exceptions, your edits to ] (and related articles) seek to add a negative point-of-view. You justifying this blatant "POV-pushing" by frankly ludicrous claims that you are trying to redress some balance and introduce a neutral POV. You employ various tactics to achieve this, including:
::::*Going into exhaustive detail on what you perceive to be negative events in Obama's life.
::::*Performing multiple reversions against many different editors, and against overwhelming consensus, but spread out enough to avoid (for the most part) 3RR issues
::::*Only making edits that enhance your negative POV, or decrease what you perceive to be positive POV - a ''clear'' sign that you are "agenda editing" rather than simply editing.
::::Furthermore, I think that we are extremely lucky to have a calm, thoughtful, thorough and neutral editor with administrator privileges on hand. Other articles are not so lucky. To cast negative aspersions on Josiah simply because he (rightfully) doesn't always agree with your point of view, or your interpretation of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, is unfair and unreasonable. -- ] (]) 16:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

::::{{ec}} Correction: local consensus is currently opposed to the changes ''you'' want to make, and is obdurately refusing ''your'' interpretation of NPOV. Duration of a dispute does not relieve anyone of the need for discussion. And the repetition of edits for which there is no consensus — '''even if you believe that your version is supported by policy''' — is disruptive.—] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::Again, you are ''simply in error'' to assert that agreement to an edit must be obtained on the talk page before it can be repeated without being considered disruptive. 3RR represents the community consensus on what constitutes disruptive editing, and while it allows for exceptions any exception should be aconsidered a difficult case requiring fine judgement. As policy notes, "All editors and all sources have biases". That includes admins. In particular, you. As an involved party in the content dispute you have a conflict of interest. Leave the fine judgements to uninvolved parties.
:::::BTW, the reverts are themselves edits for which there is no consensus. ]:<blockquote>* '''There is no such thing as a consensus version''': Your own major edit, by definition, differs significantly from the existing version, meaning the existing version is no longer a consensus version. If you successfully complete this cycle, then you will have a new consensus version. If you fail, you will have a different kind of ].<br>* '''Do not accept "Policy" , "consensus", or "procedure" as valid reasons for a revert''': These sometimes get worn in on consensus-based wikis. You are disagreeing, that is okay....</blockquote>
:::::] (]) 09:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

== Senate Campaign, weight issues ==

The following excerpts from this section seem to have ] issues. From the first paragraph:
<blockquote>Decisions by Republican incumbent ] and his Democratic predecessor ] not to contest the race launched wide-open Democratic and Republican primary contests involving fifteen candidates.<ref>{{cite news | last=Davey | first=Monica | title=Closely Watched Illinois Senate Race Attracts 7 Candidates in Millionaire Range | url=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/politics/campaign/07ILLI.html | work=The New York Times | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-04-13}}</ref> In early opinion polls leading up to the Democratic primary, Obama trailed multimillionaire businessman ] and Illinois Comptroller ].<ref>{{cite news | first=David | last=Mendell | title=Obama Routs Democratic Foes; Ryan Tops Crowded GOP Field | date=] ] | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0403170332mar17,1,1737252.story?coll=chi-news-hed | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-13}}</ref> However, Hull's popularity declined following reports of his ex-wife's allegations of domestic abuse.<ref>{{cite news | first=Christopher | last=Hayes | title=Check Bounce | date=] ] | url=http://www.chrishayes.org/articles/check-bounce/ | format=alternate link | work=TNR Online | accessdate=2008-04-13}}</ref></blockquote>
And from the second paragraph:
<blockquote>Obama's opponent in the general election was expected to be Republican primary winner ]. However, Ryan withdrew from the race in June 2004, following disclosure of divorce records containing politically embarrassing charges by his ex-wife, actress ].<ref>{{cite news | title=Ryan Drops Out of Senate Race in Illinois | date=] ] | url=http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/25/il.ryan/ | work=CNN | accessdate=2008-04-13}}</ref> In August 2004, with less than three months to go before election day, ] accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan.<ref>{{cite news | first=Maura Kelly | last=Lannan | title=Alan Keyes Enters U.S. Senate Race in Illinois Against Rising Democratic Star | date=], ] | publisher=Union-Tribune (San Diego) | url=http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20040809-0849-illinoissenate.html | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-04-13}}</ref></blockquote>
The first paragraph goes into detail about politicians who didn't even take part in the contest, and then details about another politician's alleged domestic abuse - details unrelated to Obama's life. The second paragraph needs to mention that Alan Keyes was a late entry to the race, but I don't understand why it needs to go into specifics about Jack Ryan's divorce - again, details unrelated to Obama's life. -- ] (]) 18:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:Scjessey, I'm not sure you're applying ] properly here. This is more an issue with the ] guideline and what information from the main article should be summarized here. In the case of Hull's and Ryan's divorce issues, they appear to be eligible for inclusion in this article because they partially explain how a little known state senator was able to become one of the US senators for IL. That's not to say that Obama would not have won if Hull or Ryan didn't have their divorce issues, but a contributing factor to his victory was their implosion.--] <sup>]</sup> 20:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::Perhaps it is wise to consider the essay at ], where it says "''any details not immediately relevant to the primary topic should be moved into other articles.''" If you read those excerpts above, we can see that the details they present have very little (if anything) to do with Obama. At best they are indirectly relevant, which surely means they offer a level of detail only suited to their sub-article. With the current wording, you ''could'' say that Obama's success can partially be attributed to divorce and domestic abuse. Obviously that is an extreme interpretation, but can you see the slippery slope we are on here? Better to excise such tangential information from here and give them a fuller treatment in the sub-article, thus removing any chance of misinterpretation. -- ] (]) 20:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm kind of on the fence on this one. The details of Ryan's messy divorce causing him to drop out of the race may be too far afield to include here (though they are certainly relevant in the linked "see also" article on the US Senate election), and the same might go for the domestic abuse allegations against Hull. That's a fairly limited trim, however, and the rest of the details there seem relevant enough to keep. As for citing ], I personally don't like to cite essays as justification for edits, though sometimes I use them for personal guidance when editing (] is one of my favorites). In this case, though, there is a style editing guideline at ] which reminds us all to stay on topic. --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 20:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Doubtless you will note I have not actually ''performed'' any edits related to this discussion (or the Legislature discussion earlier) thus far. I wanted to get a general sense of how other editors viewed the sections before making any sort of attempt. This has become such a volatile editing zone that I no longer think ] is viable. I would prefer to only make edits after a thorough discussion leads to a broad consensus. As a Pennsylvania resident (although sadly not a voter), I am now going to settle down and watch coverage of the primary on MSNBC before taking another look at this tomorrow. -- ] (]) 21:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== State Legislature section changes ==

The , after being butchered by ], is as follows:
<blockquote>In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the ] from Chicago's heavily-Democratic 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's ], including ]-] and ].<ref name=Jackson20070403>{{cite news | first=David | last=Jackson | coauthors=Ray Long | title=Showing His Bare Knuckles | date=] ] | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0704030881apr04,0,6468332.story | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> Before the Democratic primary Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominating petitions of incumbent ] and three other candidates and succeeded in having all of his opponents stricken from the ballot.<ref name=Jackson20070403 /></blockquote>

<blockquote>In 2000, Obama made a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate ]. Rush had been badly defeated in the February 1999 Chicago Mayoral election by ] and was thought to be vulnerable. Rush charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns, and also benefitted from an outpouring of sympathy when his son was shot to death shortly before the election. Obama, who started with just a 10% name recognition, got 31% of the votes, losing by a more than 2-to-1 margin despite winning among white voters.<ref>Federal Election Commission, . See also: {{cite web|url=http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14502364|title=Obama's Loss May Have Aided White House Bid}} and {{cite news | first=Janny | last=Scott | title=A Streetwise Veteran Schooled Young Obama | date=] ] | url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/politics/09obama.html | work=The New York Times | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref><ref name=McClelland20070212> {{cite news | first=Edward | last=McClelland | title=How Obama Learned to Be a Natural | date=] ] | url=http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/12/obama_natural/ | work =Salon | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | first=Richard | last=Wolffe | coauthors= Daren Briscoe | title=Across the Divide | date=] ] | publisher=MSNBC | url=http://www.newsweek.com/id/33156 | work=Newsweek | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | first=Scott | last=Helman | title=Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb | date=] ] | url=http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/10/12/early_defeat_launched_a_rapid_political_climb/ | work=Boston Globe | accessdate=2008-04-20}} and {{cite web|url=http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2007-10-24-3157940059_x.htm|title=Obama learned from failed Congress run}}</ref></blockquote>

<blockquote>Obama was reelected to the Illinois Senate in 1998 and 2002.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.senatedem.state.il.us/obama/index.html |title=13th District: Barack Obama | format=archive | accessdate=2008-04-20 | date=] ] | publisher=Illinois State Senate Democrats | archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20000824102110/http://www.senatedem.state.il.us/obama/index.html |archivedate=2000-04-12 }} {{cite web | url=http://www.senatedem.state.il.us/obama/index.html | title=13th District: Barack Obama | format=archive | accessdate=2008-04-20 |date=] ] | publisher=Illinois State Senate Democrats | archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20040802233730/http://www.senatedem.state.il.us/obama/index.html | archivedate=2004-08-02}}</ref> In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority.<ref>{{cite news | first=Jackie | last=Calmes | title=Statehouse Yields Clues to Obama | date=] ] | url=http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB117219748197216894-Sn6oV_4KLQHp_xz7CjYLuyjv3Jg_20070324.html | work=Wall Street Journal | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> The new majority leader, ], named him as the sponsor of important legislation that had been developed by others as a way of boosting Obama's intended run for the U.S. Senate.<ref>http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-02-28/news/barack-obama-screamed-at-me/print</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/31/obamas.godfather.ap/index.html | title=Political 'Godfather' Boosted Obama's Early Career | work=CNN | date=] ] | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> Obama resigned from the Illinois Senate in November 2004 following his election to that body.<ref>{{cite news | first=Melanie | last=Coffee | title=Attorney Chosen to Fill Obama's State Senate Seat | date=] ] | publisher=HPKCC | url=http://www.hydepark.org/hpkccnews/raoul.htm#ap | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref></blockquote>

<blockquote>As a state legislator, Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws.<ref>{{cite news | first=Peter | last=Slevin | title=Obama Forged Political Mettle in Illinois Capitol | date=] ] | url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/08/AR2007020802262.html | work=Washington Post | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | first=Scott | last=Helman | title=In Illinois, Obama Dealt with Lobbyists | date=] ] | url=http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/09/23/in_illinois_obama_dealt_with_lobbyists/ | work=Boston Globe | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | title=Obama Record May Be Gold Mine for Critics | date=] ] | publisher=CBS News | url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/17/politics/main2369157.shtml | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | title=In-Depth Look at Obama's Political Career | date=], ] | publisher=Chicago Tribune | url=http://video.chicagotribune.com/global/video/popup/pop_player.asp?clipid1=1226539 | work=CLTV | format=video | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> He sponsored a law enhancing ]s for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare.<ref name=Scott20070730>{{cite news | first=Janny | last=Scott | title=In Illinois, Obama Proved Pragmatic and Shrewd | date=] ] | url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/us/politics/30obama.html | work=The New York Times | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | first=Rick | last=Pearson | coauthors=Ray Long | title=Careful Steps, Looking Ahead | date=] ] | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0705030101may03,1,7439904.story | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor ] by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped.<ref name=Scott20070730 /> During his 2004 general election campaign for U.S. Senate, he won the endorsement of the Illinois ], whose president credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting ] reforms.<ref>{{cite news | first=Sam | last=Youngman | coauthors=Aaron Blake | title=Obama's Crime Votes Are Fodder for Rivals | date=] ] | url=http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obamas-crime-votes-are-fodder-for-rivals-2007-03-13.html | work=The Hill | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | title=US Presidential Candidate Obama Cites Work on State Death Penalty Reforms | date=] ] | publisher=International Herald Tribune | url=http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/12/america/NA-POL-US-Obama-Death-Penalty.php | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> He was criticized by rival ] candidates in the Democratic primary and by his Republican ] opponent in the general election for a series of "present" or "no" votes on ] and ] issues.<ref>{{cite news | first=Eric | last=Zorn | title=Disparagement of Obama Votes Doesn't Hold Up | archiveurl=http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/12/disparagement-o.html | archivedate=2007-12-20 | date=] ] | url=http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/573751701.html?dids=573751701:573751701&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | title=Keyes Assails Obama's Abortion Views | date=] ] | publisher=MSNBC | url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5654128/ | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | first=Sam | last=Youngman | title=Abortion Foes Target Obama Because of His Vote Record on Illinois Legislation | date=] ] | url=http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/abortion-foes-target-obama-because-of-his-vote-record-on-illinois-legislation-2007-02-15.html | work=The Hill | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref></blockquote>
So in a section entitled "State Legislature" we only mention Obama's activity in the State Legislature in the very ''last'' of four paragraphs. This is clearly a ridiculous situation that needs to be immediately redressed. May I suggest a revert back to of the article, followed by some meaningful discussion of how to proceed? -- ] (]) 16:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
:Well, except for his last year, Obama didn't do much in the IL Senate, but yes, much of what Andy added should be shifted into the sub-article (which most of it has been for days). I'd almost be tempted to eliminate the 2000 run from this article in general, because of how unimportant it really is. If it stays it's entry in this article could be reduced to a sentence at most "In 2000, Obama made a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate ], but ended up receiving only 30% of the vote and losing to Rush, who received 61%, in the primary election.<nowiki><ref>{{ cite web | publisher=Federal Election Commission | url=http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/ilh.htm | title=2000 U.S. House of Representatives Results | accessdate=2008-04-24}}</ref></nowiki>" --] <sup>]</sup> 17:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
::In addition to the problems of unnecessary detail, the section's chronology is confusing. It jumps from 1995 to 2000, detours to February 1999, then back to 1998 and forward to 2000, 2003 and 2004. The more election detail that's added, the less sense the structure makes. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

===New attempt===
Taking into account the comments from ] and ], here's my effort at a radical rewrite:
<blockquote>In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the ] from Chicago's 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's ], including ]-] and ].<ref name=Jackson20070403>{{cite news | first=David | last=Jackson | coauthors=Ray Long | title=Showing His Bare Knuckles | date=] ] | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0704030881apr04,0,6468332.story | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominating petitions of incumbent ] and the three other candidates, successfully removing their names from the ballot and allowing him to run unopposed in the primary, virtually handing him victory in the heavily-Democratic district.<ref name=Jackson20070403 /> Once elected, Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws.<ref>{{cite news | first=Peter | last=Slevin | title=Obama Forged Political Mettle in Illinois Capitol | date=] ] | url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/08/AR2007020802262.html | work=Washington Post | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | first=Scott | last=Helman | title=In Illinois, Obama Dealt with Lobbyists | date=] ] | url=http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/09/23/in_illinois_obama_dealt_with_lobbyists/ | work=Boston Globe | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | title=Obama Record May Be Gold Mine for Critics | date=] ] | publisher=CBS News | url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/17/politics/main2369157.shtml | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | title=In-Depth Look at Obama's Political Career | date=], ] | publisher=Chicago Tribune | url=http://video.chicagotribune.com/global/video/popup/pop_player.asp?clipid1=1226539 | work=CLTV | format=video | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> He sponsored a law increasing ]s for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare.<ref name=Scott20070730>{{cite news | first=Janny | last=Scott | title=In Illinois, Obama Proved Pragmatic and Shrewd | date=] ] | url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/us/politics/30obama.html | work=The New York Times | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | first=Rick | last=Pearson | coauthors=Ray Long | title=Careful Steps, Looking Ahead | date=] ] | url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0705030101may03,1,7439904.story | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor ] by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped.<ref name=Scott20070730 /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Obama was reelected to the Illinois Senate in 1998, and again in 2002 after losing a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000 to four-term incumbent ].<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/ilh.htm | title=Federal Elections 2000: U.S. House Results - Illinois | publisher=] | accessdate=2008-04-24}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.senatedem.state.il.us/obama/index.html |title=13th District: Barack Obama | format=archive | accessdate=2008-04-20 | date=] ] | publisher=Illinois State Senate Democrats | archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20000824102110/http://www.senatedem.state.il.us/obama/index.html |archivedate=2000-04-12 }} {{cite web | url=http://www.senatedem.state.il.us/obama/index.html | title=13th District: Barack Obama | format=archive | accessdate=2008-04-20 |date=] ] | publisher=Illinois State Senate Democrats | archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20040802233730/http://www.senatedem.state.il.us/obama/index.html | archivedate=2004-08-02}}</ref> In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority.<ref>{{cite news | first=Jackie | last=Calmes | title=Statehouse Yields Clues to Obama | date=] ] | url=http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB117219748197216894-Sn6oV_4KLQHp_xz7CjYLuyjv3Jg_20070324.html | work=Wall Street Journal | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> During his 2004 general election campaign for U.S. Senate, he won the endorsement of the Illinois ], whose president credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting ] reforms.<ref>{{cite news | first=Sam | last=Youngman | coauthors=Aaron Blake | title=Obama's Crime Votes Are Fodder for Rivals | date=] ] | url=http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obamas-crime-votes-are-fodder-for-rivals-2007-03-13.html | work=The Hill | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | title=US Presidential Candidate Obama Cites Work on State Death Penalty Reforms | date=] ] | publisher=International Herald Tribune | url=http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/12/america/NA-POL-US-Obama-Death-Penalty.php | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> He was criticized by rival ] candidates in the Democratic primary and by his Republican ] opponent in the general election for a series of "present" or "no" votes on ] and ] issues.<ref>{{cite news | first=Eric | last=Zorn | title=Disparagement of Obama Votes Doesn't Hold Up | archiveurl=http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/12/disparagement-o.html | archivedate=2007-12-20 | date=] ] | url=http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/573751701.html?dids=573751701:573751701&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT | work=Chicago Tribune | accessdate=2008-04-20}} {{cite news | title=Keyes Assails Obama's Abortion Views | date=] ] | publisher=MSNBC | url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5654128/ | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-04-20}} See also: {{cite news | first=Sam | last=Youngman | title=Abortion Foes Target Obama Because of His Vote Record on Illinois Legislation | date=] ] | url=http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/abortion-foes-target-obama-because-of-his-vote-record-on-illinois-legislation-2007-02-15.html | work=The Hill | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref> Obama resigned from the Illinois Senate in November 2004 following his election to the US Senate.<ref>{{cite news | first=Melanie | last=Coffee | title=Attorney Chosen to Fill Obama's State Senate Seat | date=] ] | publisher=HPKCC | url=http://www.hydepark.org/hpkccnews/raoul.htm#ap | work=Associated Press | accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref></blockquote>
{{reflist|3}}
I'm pretty sure this fixes the chronology problem, and it also cuts out the details of the failed Congressional run (which is detailed in the sub-article). Thoughts? -- ] (]) 18:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
:Two minor questions: wasn't there a question about the reliability of the ''Houston Press'' story (note 28)? And why not move the resignation sentence to the end of the paragraph, since he resigned after the 2004 election in which he got the police endorsement and was criticized for his abortion-related votes? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 19:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
::Agreed on both counts. Changed. -- ] (]) 19:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

:You may think I'm picking nits here (and maybe I am), but I'd recommend "increasing tax credits" instead of "enhancing", since "enhancing" implies that they were made not just ''bigger'' but also ''better''. Also, the first of the two paragraphs seems to combine unrelated topics (getting elected versus what he did in office) and should probably be split into separate paragraphs, even though those paragraphs are so short. --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 19:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
::Agreed on "increasing", but I disagree with splitting the first paragraph up. This is just a summary, remember, and I think we can afford to mix the campaign for the position with the position itself. Open to further discussion though! -- ] (]) 19:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
:::If we're going with chronological order, the remainder of the first paragraph from the sentence beginning with "As a state legislator..." should be after the Emil Jones sentence in the second paragraph. --] <sup>]</sup> 19:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
::::That doesn't make any sense to me, because the Emil Jones event was later on. In fact, I'm going to just cut that sentence out and leave it to the sub-article, which means we don't have to mess with the order. -- ] (]) 19:54, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

:::I just realized what the problem was - there's nothing to transition the flow of the first paragraph between Obama running for office (and the ballot petition stuff) and what he did while in office. I think if there's some mention of him actually winning the race (even though it's kind of obvious) it would fill in the gap. Maybe end that one sentence with this: "...successfully removing their names from the ballot and allowing him to win unopposed." --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 20:09, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
::::I've added "and allowing him to '''run''' unopposed", since there wasn't really any contest to "win" as such. -- ] (]) 21:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I've also changed "As a State legislator" to "Once elected", which I feel eases the transition further. Are we getting there? -- ] (]) 21:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Is "...allowing him to run unopposed" misleading? He was unopposed in the Democratic primary, but there was token opposition from the Republicans (and, I believe, the Harold Washington Party) in the general election. It may well be the case that in that particular district winning the Democratic primary is tantamount to winning the seat, but tantamount isn't identical. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 05:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:I'm also a bit unsure about cutting the 2000 House run back quite so much. I'd think that the name of the incumbent he was running against should at least be mentioned. Perhaps "...after losing a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000 to incumbent ]." Even that seems a bit anemic to me, to be honest. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 05:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

::I've reworded things to give a clearer account of his election, and I've changed it to mention Bobby Rush. I don't see any reason why additional details are necessary when they are adequately covered in the sub-article. -- ] (]) 11:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

How about starting over with:<blockquote>Obama was elected to his first (two-year) term in the ] in 1996 from the 13th District, which then spanned Chicago ] neighborhoods from ]-] south to ] and west to ]. In 1998, he was reelected to a second (four-year) term in the Illinois Senate. In 2000, Obama finished second, ahead of fellow state Sen. ], in a three-way ] Democratic primary election, losing to four-term incumbent U.S. Rep. ]. Obama was reelected in 2002 to his third (four-year) term in the Illinois Senate from a 13th District redrawn to span Chicago lakefront neighborhoods from the ] south to ]. In January 2003, Obama, after having been minority spokesman for four years, became chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority in the Illinois Senate. He resigned from the Illinois Senate in November 2004 following his election to the U.S. Senate.<br /><br />Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws. He sponsored a law increasing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reforms, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare. Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor ] by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped.</blockquote>
and in expanding the section, following ] policy by:
# not using poorly sourced contentious material
# remembering that biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively
# remembering that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives
# remembering that an important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm"<br />
] (]) 04:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

:That sounds good, but I don't think it will get past the tiny (but extremely noisy) group of POV-pushing Obama haters. The evolving version above is an attempt to try to reach a compromise. In fact, since none of Andy's crowd has voiced a problem with "new attempt", I'd say it was ready for deployment. -- ] (]) 16:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

== Scare quotes ==

In the Presidential Campaign section, the word "terrorism" is shown in quotes that are intended to be a direct quote of Wright on the matter, but that ''look like'' ] because only a single word is between them.
:ABC News found and excerpted racially and politically charged clips from sermons by Rev. Wright, including his assertion that the United States brought on the 9/11 attacks with its own "terrorism" and his assertion that "he government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."
I would contend that this should be avoided when possible. My original solution was to simply remove 'with its own "terrorism" ', although I noted in the edit summary that this wasn't the best solution. I actually wanted to say, 'because of its foreign policy', which isn't a direct quote and which might also be going too far from the cited source. In any case, I think we need to avoid having one or two words quoted out of context like that, and I'd like to see any solutions that other editors here have. --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 13:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

== Senate voting record needs rethink ==

A major source (ADA) has been "blacklisted", and the voting information is no longer available. Since it constitutes a large chunk of the paragraph, and acts as a complement to the National Journal numbers, I think we are going to have to do a bit of heavy-lifting to fix it. Any ideas? -- ] (]) 19:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, as far as the blacklisting of a source, or the paragraph. Can you point/link me to something? --] (]) 19:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
::I think this is the result of something that came up on the Hillary Clinton FAC. ADA is linked there and the link checker tool identified it as being "blacklisted". I was doing some cleanup and didn't want to worry about it at that point, so left a note on the FAC page and commented that it was "blacklisted", but I hadn't looked into it that far. Upon further investigation, it seems ADA changed to a php format, and as a result going to their "index.htm" page resulted in the blacklisting. Change the link to index.php and you're in. --] <sup>]</sup> 19:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
:::If you go to that website, you find that all the pages now point to a different, external website (looks like a freebie webhost or something). It might be "blacklisted" because of other sites hosted by the same service. Either way, I have been unable to dig up the cited information. -- ] (]) 20:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
::::I've already fixed it. The only thing that isn't "fixed" is that the sourced used to support "In the sixty votes used by the ADA to measure a legislator's political liberalism during Obama's career in the Senate he has voted for the non-"liberal" result only once." doesn't actually support that claim. It's a link to the ADA's home page. However, if you go through their , , and reports you can use the combination of those reports to surmise that Obama has only voted against ADA once. --] <sup>]</sup> 20:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

== sneaking things against concensus ==

I am watching this article. Some things have been settled but then a few days or weeks later, the bias version sneaks up. I can see about 10 examples. I will do one at a time.

I don't need to argue for the point. It's already mentioned in the talk page or talk page archive.

Sneaking things in #1: As a state senator, Obama's OPPONENT received the police union endorsement. The rank and file hated Obama because he did things they thought was anti-police. Only after the opponent lost did they change the endorsement. Just saying that he got the endorsement is POV since it glosses over the fact.

After this is resolved, we can move to point #2 of about 10. ] (]) 18:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


His hairline is uneven in 2012 portrait. ] (]) 04:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
:Do you have a source that Obama didn't have the police endorsement that contradicts , that says he did? ''']]''' 18:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
{{abot}}
:Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "sneaking things against consensus." ''']]''' 18:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


== Obama identifies as a chair, please note that in his biography ==
I am a card carrying union member which is why the way the wikipedia article reads irks me. Just google it and near the top is...The union endorsement was not particularly surprising, since the FOP endorsed another Democrat, Illinois Comptroller Dan Hynes...http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408130201aug13,1,7640082.story .


I have witnessed him saying "Im a chair" multiple times - source me ] (]) 10:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
Even other internet encyclopedias (according to google) make the Hynes distinction. Sneaking things against concensus, you ask? Just look at the history. This article was correct then the bias version showed up a little while after the discussion had ended. This is one of many facts that are mentioned elsewhere on the internet as an example of wikipedia bias. This is wikipedia. Misplaced Pages should be for truth. Having a union support Hynes is not anti-Obama but is the truth. ] (]) 19:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
== "]" listed at ] ==
]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 11#Baraxk}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 15:54, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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? faq page Frequently asked questions

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Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
  1. Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted.
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New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.
Former featured articleBarack Obama is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 18, 2004, and on November 4, 2008.
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August 12, 2004Featured article candidatePromoted
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December 21, 2007Featured article reviewKept
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October 22, 2012Featured article reviewKept
December 4, 2021Featured article reviewDemoted
In the news A news item involving this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on November 5, 2008.
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on November 5, 2013, November 4, 2016, and November 4, 2022.
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Section sizes
Section size for Barack Obama (57 sections)
Section name Byte
count		 Section
total
(Top) 8,236 8,236
Early life and career 14,093 73,909
Education 29,943 29,943
Family and personal life 21,864 21,864
Religious views 8,009 8,009
Legal career 17 1,655
Civil rights attorney 1,638 1,638
Legislative career 23 28,321
Illinois Senate (1997–2004) 10,948 10,948
2004 U.S. Senate campaign in Illinois 5,294 5,294
U.S. Senate (2005–2008) 12,056 12,056
Presidential campaigns 27 22,503
2008 13,238 13,238
2012 9,238 9,238
Presidency (2009–2017) 123 136,177
First 100 days 5,325 5,325
Domestic policy 13,196 75,048
Racial issues 8,067 8,067
LGBT rights 3,177 8,968
Same-sex marriage 5,791 5,791
Economic policy 21,828 21,828
Environmental policy 8,995 8,995
Health care reform 13,994 13,994
Foreign policy 9,784 55,681
War in Iraq 5,658 5,658
Afghanistan and Pakistan 4,298 9,564
Death of Osama bin Laden 5,266 5,266
Relations with Cuba 4,237 4,237
Israel 7,588 7,588
Libya 6,464 6,464
Syrian civil war 4,207 4,207
Iran nuclear talks 3,681 3,681
Russia 4,498 4,498
Cultural and political image 3,921 18,341
Job approval 8,511 8,511
Foreign perceptions 5,409 5,409
Thanks, Obama 500 500
Post-presidency (2017–present) 21,359 21,359
Legacy and recognition 14,177 15,971
Presidential library 619 619
Awards and honors 1,111 1,111
Eponymy 64 64
Bibliography 69 5,471
Books 1,134 1,134
Audiobooks 216 216
Articles 4,052 4,052
See also 98 1,214
Politics 474 474
Other 64 64
Lists 578 578
Notes 24 24
References 48,866 50,520
Bibliography 1,654 1,654
Further reading 2,179 2,179
External links 308 8,466
Official 463 463
Other 7,695 7,695
Total 394,346 394,346
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Request to replace Obama portrait

 Not done. It is hard to make this clear without being mean, but this does not matter in the slightest. Remsense ‥ 论 05:01, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

His hairline is uneven in 2012 portrait. 98.150.89.19 (talk) 04:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Obama identifies as a chair, please note that in his biography

I have witnessed him saying "Im a chair" multiple times - source me 2A02:3030:D:454B:5516:D87F:F580:7923 (talk) 10:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

"Baraxk" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Baraxk has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 11 § Baraxk until a consensus is reached. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:54, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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