| Revision as of 10:30, 15 August 2005 editStr1977 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers59,123 editsm →outside view← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 20:41, 5 December 2024 edit undoJHobson3 (talk | contribs)237 edits →Historical error: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply | ||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| {{Talk header|search=yes}} | |||
| <!-- Please do not edit this section, unless adding a archive notice. Thank you. --> | |||
| {{controversial}} | |||
| Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. | |||
| {{Article history | |||
| If further archiving is needed, see ]. | |||
| |action1=GAN | |||
| |action1date=00:02, 27 April 2006 | |||
| |action1result=listed | |||
| |action1oldid=50317267 | |||
| |action2=PR | |||
| '''Previous discussions:''' | |||
| |action2date=17:25, 10 May 2006 | |||
| *] ] 20:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) | |||
| |action2link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Pope Pius XII/archive1 | |||
| *] ] 21:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) | |||
| |action2result=reviewed | |||
| *] ] 21:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) | |||
| |action2oldid=52396121 | |||
| |action3=PR | |||
| ---- | |||
| |action3date=23:55, 12 June 2006 | |||
| |action3link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Pope Pius XII/archive2 | |||
| |action3result=reviewed | |||
| |action3oldid=58289470 | |||
| |action4=FAC | |||
| == Complaints == | |||
| |action4date=17:04, 28 June 2006 | |||
| |action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Pope Pius XII | |||
| |action4result=promoted | |||
| |action4oldid=61025711 | |||
| |action5=FAR | |||
| I changed the sentence next to | |||
| |action5date=20:09, 2 November 2006 | |||
| |action5link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Pope Pius XII/archive1 | |||
| |action5result=kept | |||
| |action5oldid=85362191 | |||
| |maindate=July 3, 2006 | |||
| |currentstatus=FFA | |||
| |action6=FAR | |||
| Between the German Concordat's signing in 1933 and 1939, Pope Pius XI made three dozen formal complaints to the Nazi government, all of which in reality drafted by Pacelli. | |||
| |action6date=2016-08-23 | |||
| |action6link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Pope Pius XII/archive2 | |||
| |action6result=demoted | |||
| |action6oldid=734708517 | |||
| |otd1date=2011-03-02|otd1oldid=416798960 | |||
| |otd2date=2013-03-02|otd2oldid=541695905 | |||
| |otd3date=2014-03-02|otd3oldid=597788616 | |||
| }} | |||
| {{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Pius Xii, Pope|1= | |||
| {{WikiProject Biography|politician-work-group=Yes|politician-priority=}} | |||
| {{WikiProject European Microstates|importance=High|Vatican City=yes|Vatican City-importance=Top}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Mid|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=High|saints=no|theology-work-group=yes|theology-importance=Mid}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Italy|importance=Mid}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Cold War|importance=Low}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Rome|importance=low}} | |||
| }} | |||
| {{User:MiszaBot/config | |||
| |archiveheader = {{aan}} | |||
| |maxarchivesize = 100K | |||
| |counter = 19 | |||
| |minthreadsleft = 5 | |||
| |algo = old(90d) | |||
| |archive = Talk:Pope Pius XII/Archive %(counter)d | |||
| }} | |||
| {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn | |||
| |target= Talk:Pope Pius XII/Archive index |mask= Talk:Pope Pius XII/Archive <#> | |||
| |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes |template= | |||
| }} | |||
| {{section sizes}} | |||
| == Alleged reference == | |||
| {{Blockquote | |||
| change: | |||
| |text=Pacelli presided as ] over the ] in ], ] in 10–14 October 1934, and in ] in 25–30 May 1938.<ref>Marchione, 2002, p. 22</ref> At this time, ] laws were in the process of being formulated in Hungary. Pacelli made reference to the Jews "whose lips curse and whose hearts reject him even today".<ref>''Christian responses to the Holocaust: moral and ethical issues: Religion, theology, and the Holocaust'', ], p. 92, Syracuse University Press, 2003; {{ISBN|0-8156-3029-8}}</ref><ref>{{cite web}}</ref><ref>{{cite web}}</ref>}} | |||
| ''In Duffy's words, their tone was 'anything but cordial.''' with: ''The strongest condemnetion of Hitler's ideology and ecclesiastical policy was the Encyclical ], issued in 1937'' | |||
| because the text of the Encyclical (much more than a diplomatic complain: it was read in all parishes of Germany) proves that the complains were not cordial at all. The complete text of the Encyclical is strongly against Hitler policy. | |||
| Aside the fact that the quote is from what is at least a ternary source (because I assume the quote is faithful), as well as the question whether the pope knew anti-semitic laws were "being formulated" in Hungary at the same time, I don't think that the source proves that that the pope referred to Jews, but it explicitly denies that he made a direct reference, and this much is clear from the quote in the source: | |||
| {{Blockquote | |||
| ==Repair for Article== | |||
| |text=Jesus conquers! He who so often was the recipient of the rage of his enemies, he who suffered the persecutions of those of whom he was one, he shall be triumphant in the future as well As opposed to the foes of Jesus, who cried out to his face, "Crucify him!"—we sing him hymns of our loyalty and our love. We act in this fashion, not out of bitterness, not out of a sense of superiority, not out of arrogance toward those whose lips curse him and whose hearts reject him even today}} | |||
| At the very least, the reference in the article should be reformulated to express doubt. I would prefer it to be expressed as an opinion of the author of the tertiary source unless there are others that independently agree. ] (]) 20:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| Uh Have uh repaired the article . uh sourced uh this earlier (see uh posts). If you uh want more Ill put in my summary here uh? ] 10:43, 7 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Cardinal Pacelli was not the Papal Nuncio to Argentina nor to Budapest. He was the Vatican's equivalent to Secretary of State. He was number two to Pope Pius XI whom the Nazis and Communists didn't want to become Pope. That's why they tried to assassinate him. They even tried to assassinate him when he became Pope Pius XII but the Papal security stopped all such attempts. It is dishonest to claim he was a supporter of the Nazis. ] (]) 02:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ===Re-repairing article=== | |||
| Some of the edits have been useful, but some of them have introduced POV. I have added an NPOV tag to the section in question until I can remove unsourced allegations and put sourced allegations as POV. ] 23:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| {{reflist-talk}} | |||
| The following have been removed from the article. ] 01:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Birthtime of Pope Pius XII == | |||
| ====Moved==== | |||
| 3:08 AM (02:08 GMT) was a probable birthtime of Pope Pius XII. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because of the differences of timezones. The standard time of Misplaced Pages is GMT, not including DST. | |||
| A year prior to the ] Cardinal Pacelli had been transmitting the wish of the pontiff for Adolf Hitler to assume control of Germany , as bulwark against atheistic ] . | |||
| ] (]) 13:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| The notorious up-ending of the ] ] constitution is the single example of a parliamentary ] voting for its own demise . It is also an example of the conflicts of interest between ] and ] power , personified here by the Ecclesiastic Party Leader, Monsignor Kaas | |||
| == Historical error == | |||
| The terms of the Enabling Act themselves forbad the earlier interference with the Institution of the Reicshstag which these arrests achieved . | |||
| "Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor on 30 January 1933 and sought to gain international respectability and to remove internal opposition by representatives of the church and the Catholic Centre Party. He sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Pacelli, Prelate Ludwig Kaas, the outgoing chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated first drafts of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20 July and ratified on 10 September 1933. Bishop Preysing cautioned against compromise with the new regime, against those who saw the Nazi persecution of the church as an aberration that Hitler would correct." | |||
| It can be argued that ] had to make the best of the situation, in order to ensure some amount of protection for the Church in Germany, but of his early approbation for Hitler , and his attitude against Communism , there is no doubt . | |||
| is incorrect on several points. The Associated Press reported in 1933 that "Goebells a minister without portfolio" signed the concordant for Germany. Hitler was not in charge of German government and hadn't even picked his staff yet. President Paul Von Hindenburg was in charge and would only agree to appoint Hitler as Chancellor if Hitler accepted the appointment of Von Papen as Vice Chancellor according to the Associated Press. The Associated Press reported that in 1934 when President Paul Von Hindenburg fell ill and was thought to be on his deathbed, Hitler arrested former Chancellors von schleicher and von Papen among other opponents of the Nazi party. The Associated Press articles of 1934 reported Hitler had von schleicher executed and was preparing to have von Papen executed as well when the President Paul von Hindenburg recovered from his illness and pleaded with Hitler to spare the life of von Papen. In 1934, the Associated Press reported that Hitler spared von Papen's life but put him under house arrest. von Papen remained under house arrest for the duration of the war. von Papen was not acting under Hitler's orders when he approached the Vatican about signing a Concordant. He acted under the authority of President Paul von Hindenburg. As Chancellor, Hitler did not have the authority to negotiate with the Vatican. In 1933, that authority was still in von Hindenburg's jurisdiction. The Concordant was not an endorsement of von Hindenburg nor was it an endorsement of Adolf Hitler. Von Papen remained under house arrest and was not convicted for war crimes at the Nuremberg trials because he was Hitler's prisoner not a participant in the government. | |||
| The Catholic Church has yet to release documents for the relevant period, but the accusation is that the Centre vote elevated Hitler to power much more quickly than Hitler's preferred "legal" entry to power might have otherwise required. ] is remembered as the conduit for Pacelli's and Pope Pius XI's favour towards Hitler. Reports of complicity towards restoration of the German monarchy in 1925 suggest great care by the Vatican to avoid evidential remains in delicate political negotiations . The war-time vatican channel between the German ] and the Allies in ] and ] even more naturally , for fears of the ] implicating the Holy See , were purely verbal . | |||
| An interesting side note: In 1933 the Associated Press reported when Hitler was appointed Chancellor by von Hindenburg Albert Eistein resigned his Prussian citizenship and was quoted as stating "the Catholic church was the only organization telling the truth about the Nazis." ] (]) 02:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| There is accusation that the German concordat (see ] ) which remains in force to this day - allowed for the induction of Catholic priests into the armed forces during hostilities. Article 27 of the concordat states, in part, "The Church will accord provision to the German army for the spiritual guidance of its Catholic officers, personnel and other officials, as well as for the families of the same...The ecclesiastical appointment of military chaplains and other military clergy will be made after previous consultations with the appropriate authorities of the ] by the army bishop." The clear reference here is the drafting of priests not as soldiers, but as chaplains. | |||
| :The AP reported in 1933? Do you have copies of the reports, or full citations other than nebulous dates? ] (]) 19:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| It nevertheless did not mention anti-semitism nor the Jews by name despite the obvious need for this , and , Pacelli's own pontificate did not do so either during the whole of the ] and the ] . | |||
| :If you think that Hitler didn't take immediate and total charge of the German government in 1933, you're the one guilty of historical error ] (]) 20:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| yes. 1934 not 1935. Sorry about the mix up. I was putting them all in order yesterday by date. Discovered my memory was off by a year. | |||
| {{ctop|Collectively, these are copyright violations, although individually they are not - hence collapsing rather than redacting. ] (]) 00:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)}} | |||
| Critics cite the danger of the destabilisation of a democracy by a church, relevant even in today's politics. | |||
| :Source 1 The Gainesville Sun (GS) Note - Newspaper printing articles day after AP date recorded here. | |||
| :Source 2 The New York Times (NYT) | |||
| The ''quid pro quo'' with ] lives in histories relating to this descent of Europe into barbarity and war . In terms of the ] itself Pius not having spoken out for the Jews publicly by name , nor in strong and explicit condemnation of Nazism is noted .It is recently argued (see ] that Pacelli himself was a lifelong ] who otherwise could have seriously undermined Hitler and Nazism among Germany's many catholics. While the world was divided politically and geographically, many catholics were united behind their Pope, and followed his lead into their own personal accomodations with Hitlerism . | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 7, 1932 Headline: "Von Hindenburg Glad Elections Almost History". | |||
| Had Pope Pius XII denounced Nazism in the strongest possible terms, it is possible that it could have not only caused unrest amongst catholics in the German army, but it could have also caused catholics working in German war factories to undermine German army support and logistics systems. This would have dealt a serious blow to the German war effort. Conversely, such action probably would have caused heavy suppression of Catholics, given that Nazism was more focused on Protestantism in the first place. | |||
| Subheading: German President Believes Four Years of Stability Ahead; Expresses Keen Interest In Contest In The United States." | |||
| "... One of the outstanding results of the voting was that Adolf Hitler's strength dropped from 37.7 percent of the total ballots to 33 percent, and his National Socialist party delegation in the Reichstag was cut from 230 to 195." | |||
| Such speculation does not form any part of the German Resistance ( ] ) studies . | |||
| "The Communist Reichstag membership jumped from 89 to 100, the Centrists decreased their delegation from 75 to 70, the Nationalists returned 51 against 37 in the old Reichstag, and the Socialists dropped from 133 to 121." | |||
| Although an individual of self-less habit , he was a believer of the absolute leadership priciple . he more than anyone promoted the concept of absolute papal rule , diminuishing the earlier collegiality of the church councils . Modesty of appearance belied great subtlety and cunning as he inherited his forbears desire for the papacy to once again exert all powerful control over the church through ecclesiastical and international law . | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 17, 1932 Headline: "Von Papen And Ministry Quit Post In Berlin" | |||
| The historic autonomy of the Germanic Catholic Church stood in contrast to these developements so ... | |||
| "Chancellor Franz Von Papen, who has directed the German Government for a little less than six months, resigned today taking his whole cabinet out with him in the face of almost unanimous opposition in the new Reichstag. ..." | |||
| ===Disagreement=== | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 19, 1932 Headline: "Hitler Presses For Early Appointment Chancellor Germany" | |||
| The following statement on my talk page should probably appear here also: | |||
| "For the second time in three months, Adolf Hitler, who was a corporal in the World War, applied today to Field Marshal Paul Von Hindenburg, President of Germany, to be made Chancellor of the Reich." | |||
| ::No, I'm afraisd to say that I do not accept your ediing of this article at all . Since you would simply make me repeat all my sourcing , I take this ill as the editing you have done is clearly POV because it does not accept the sources . I am blocked , by you McC .] 09:05, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| "This time, in marked contrast to their meeting August 13, Hitler was invited to sit down for an hour and to talk with frank cordiality. As he departed from the president's residence, he was asked to come back for another conference next Tuesday." | |||
| All of the material that I considered either speculative or POv has been moved to this talk page and is available for any Wikipedian to review and re-edit. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 21, 1932 Headline: "Adolf Hitler Gets Mandate Form Cabinet" | |||
| To the best of my knowledge, no one has been "blocked". Blocking is an administrative function that can be used on a short-term basis to deal with abuse, typically 3RR violations or vandalism. I am not an admin and do not have (or want) the power to block anyone. Rather than complaining that editing is blocking him,] would do better to request a third opinion or mediation. ] 11:27, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Subheading 1: "President Von Hindenburg However, Imposes Certain Restrictions That May Prevent Acceptance New Honors." | |||
| ==Article repaired Through Scholarly Source John Cornwell== | |||
| Subheading 2: " Limitations Set" | |||
| Here is the link ] to the source from ''Vanity Fair'' Magazine of an abbreviation of John Cornwell's '']'' . If the ] rules according to its rules , then a source is a source . This is the most complete up to date scholarly source . By all means add more recent source . Full acknowledgement to both John Cornwell and Vanity Fair- I have lagely substituted as many simple parallel terms as appropriate . Any more adherence to the Vanity Fair text is by regard for fair educational use . Something especially urgent here on WP . ] 16:19, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Subheading 3: "Must Not Tamper With Reichswehr, Emergency Decrees And Other Safeguards of Law and Order; Nazi Leader Replies." | |||
| At ] 16:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC) I note disappearance of John Cornwell's explanations . I note no discussion here by Str1977 , who is editing under the impressions Cornwell is POV and or mistranslating . I see no proofs nor any sign of well, lets not go into that . I refer editors to thr Rfc re:Famekeeper , linked from my name page . I can only think that this is not my argument any more , and that Str can do as he wishes . What anybody else might judge is up to them . I see messages but they should be here . This article page needs careful consideration by some authority of Wkipdia rules and regulations who can decide when a historian is not a source and consider a protection . It is not for me to say , not to hang around more in hand to hand. ] | |||
| "After nine years of striving, Adolf Hitler today received a mandate to form a cabinet, but it was under conditions which immediately at least, he could not accept. ..." | |||
| I reverted, not because I oppose including your information (see my post at your talk page), but because the whole edit was infused with a anti-Pacelli POV (which might come from Cornwell) studded with factual inaccuracies (rewrote concordats), debunked claims (anti-semitic letter) or off-topic remarks (Martin Luther burned canons etc). | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 22, 1932 Headline: "Hitler Delays" | |||
| I also removed one of the links linking (sorry the redundancy) to Vanity Fair's excerpt of Cornwell's book. This is why I put them side by side first so that everyone could see that I removed only a doublette. | |||
| "Besieged by two groups of conflicting advisers, Adolf Hitler, leader of the National Socialist, decided today to put off until tomorrow his reply to President Von Hindenburg's reiterated conditional proffer of the chancellorship." | |||
| ] 16:58, 9 | |||
| ::I really don't mind what you do as it is your own choice to intervene in this way . I do think you will be the subject of scrutiny , but I have played my part . It is not for me to fight : You are rv'ing source ., and it's up to you . Personally I believe this takes us right back to the beginning- you are a fantastic terrier for the cause of Pacelli , and it really isn't any of it to do with my POV . I sourced everything I ever did on articles , the rest were my attempts to cure you of this craziness . The WP is being made a mockery , and there is an ongoing resultant responsibility . The page will need to return to my last edit , or sources are not part of WP . As ever this goes in tandem with Kaas , attacked by McC . It's not my problem ,see? It's yours and his and the WP's . You are certainly not within the guidelines now, but it is not news to me , as you never were . Bye August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Photo of Adolf Hitler November 23, 1932 Top Caption: "Rejects Proposals" | |||
| :::Your insertions were reverted because they were not presented as Cornwell's POV, but as fact. It is fact and NPOV that Cornwell says that Pacelli believed in centralized power and was working toward that objective. It is POV to simply say that. You did not present them as Cornwell's statements, but as fact. | |||
| Bottom Caption: "Adolf Hitler writes President Paul Von Hindenburg that restrictions placed on proffered chancellorship of Germany are too cramping to insure successful administration of the high office." | |||
| :::I am still agreeable to mediation or arbitration. I am not trying to block or censor any view. I am only trying to remove unattributed POV to the talk page. If you can present it as POV, then it can be presented. You did not attribute it. I suggest that you move all of the questioned material to ], which is a summary of what Cornwell wrote. There is an NPOV flag on that article because I questioned whether you had accurately summarized what Cornwell wrote. If you can accurately esummarize what he wrote, then I will remove the NPOV tag. I do suggest not relying on a summary of Cornwell's book. I do suggest using the book itself. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article of Adolf Hitler November 23, 1932 Headline: "Adolf Hitler Unwilling To Accept Post" | |||
| :::If you think that the Misplaced Pages is being made a mockery of, please post another RfC or RfM or even RfAR. I am looking for truth, but truth is not found by shouting. ] 01:50, 10 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Subheading 1: "Counter Offer" | |||
| Subheading 2: " Nazi Leader Declares He Cannot Solve German Situation on Purely Parliamentary Basis of Action." | |||
| No contrary source added . No substantiated claim . ] 01:12, 10 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Expected Nazi Tripe Follows | |||
| Sorry, FK, but no. Your last edited might be taken out of Cornwell word for word, but this is about Pacelli/Pius the man as he was - not as Cornwell portrays him. Cornwell is just ''one'' book about him. I didn't want to revert alltogether - I started removing certain bits that were clearly unsuitable but it turned that the anti-Pacelli bias (even Pacelli-hate) permeated through the whole text (I guess you took that directly from Cornwell). As it were it cannot stand - not as fact - only as POV, Cornwell's POV and, there I agree with Robert would be best placed at the Hitler's Pope page - there Cornwell's book and his description of Pius is the basis of the article. ] 08:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article of Adolf Hitler November 24, 1932 Headline: "Von Hindenburg Withdraws Offer German Chancellorship To Hitler" | |||
| What-say-you to this: You get your strictly ecclesiastical article . We remove controversy out of it completely - but both ways. All Cornwell?Mowrer?Centre whatever OUT. | |||
| Subheading:"President of Republic Expresses Lack Confidence In Nazi Leader To Control Reichstag; Now Looking for Another Candidate" | |||
| "President Von Hindenburg, who offered to make Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany if he could guarantee the support of the Reichstag, withdrew that offer today and called in leaders of the other parties to consider another candidate." | |||
| We remove all defence as exists OUT. | |||
| "At any rate he could not command that support. The National Socialist party is the largest in the Reichstag but it is far short of a majority and Hitler could not swing the Nationalists or the Bavarian party into line." | |||
| We leave it as strict biographical listing of his life , so it looks like any other Pope. All Concordat politics becomes only v briefest references, with no conclusions ''whatever'' either way ''political'' . Leaver it Only to cover canon law and that which the Reichskonkordat covered . No refs to Hitler controversy nor Kaas nor no one . No letters of accusation, no defence . | |||
| "He told the president last night he could not control the Reichstag, but he renewed his proposal that Von Hindenburg make him head of a 'presidential' cabinet to rule without consulting the parliament." | |||
| "The president's refusal today made it plain that he has not sufficient confidence in Hitler to place him at the head of a government like that which Franz Von Papen headed, to rule solely with the presidential authority." | |||
| Then we agree between you and me , that you have a [See also: whatever defence page u title it..... | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article June 25, 1933 Headline: "Bomb Explodes In Vatican City; 4 Injured" | |||
| Equally I put a link . | |||
| Follow the Associated Press reporting on the joint investigation by the Italian Police and the Papal gendarmerie. It is interesting and determined the target was Cardinal Pacelli. Unexploded bombs were summer of 1931, and February 13, 1932. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article June 30, 1934. Headline: "Nazi Revolution Feared; Hitler Maintains Power After Smashing Coup" | |||
| Both to be prominently included at the point where the Concordat story is briefly touched upon . Pius X! will need however to have equal see also .'''How about that ?''' | |||
| Subheading: "Former Chancellor Von Scheicher Is Killed" | |||
| "In a day of summary punishment for those who challenged his authority--the denouncement of the crisis of recent weeks hastened by the disclosure of immoral orgies indulged in by leaders of his own Nazi storm troops -- the chancellor 'liquidated' leaders of a threefold opposition; the reactionary monarchists, the 'Catholic Action" group, and the left wing storm troopers who plotted his end." | |||
| "Heinrich Klausner, leader of the 'Catholic Action' group was shot to death". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :No uptake on the reasonable suggestion as to a solution . While it is further considered , we can return to the published source basis .] 20:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 1, 1934. Headline: "... To Purge Nazi Party" | |||
| :::I don't get it - you have upset my apple cart . i was being frank with you , and I was not being frivolous. This is not at all the way it should have to be that I am to tell you what you hould do . I can only tell you what you are already absolutely aware of : this is pure Cornwell that now even you , have reverted . What am I supposed to say is really not the point . The point is on what basis is Cornwell '''not''' allowed entry ? | |||
| Paul von Hindenburg gravely ill. Purge begins. von Papen placed under house arrest. | |||
| "When reports of the calling together of physicians reached Berlin the rumor was quickly revived that von Hindenburg had written a 'political will' naming the conservative von Papen as his successor and enjoining the army, always faithful to the president, to help him if necessary". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 2, 1934. Headline: "Eye-Witness Tells Of Execution Of Sixty Rebellious Storm Troopers". This is about SA leadership elimination. | |||
| :::No sourced argument was provided to justify revision of my last text expansion .Your revert like that now puts you as you yourself see under the responsibilility to justify the action against topical published source . This has to be dealt with of and in itself . I was entirely aware that you had and were suggesting reasons and movement . This rv however has simply a quality of denial , of going '''against''' a very simple '''wikipedianess''' . Would you kndly justify your rv of source , as much as Str1977 would have to justify should he have done it ? ] 23:49, 10 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 3, 1934. Headline: "Hitler Moves To Oust Von Papen In Favor Of Wilhelm Goering" | |||
| If source is denied , then the balance is denied . Currently therefore the POV tag is required . Sad unacceptance .The woman who survived ]- she's Po v removable -justlike that , uh Wyss Str1977McClenon who don't answer.... ] 09:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Notable quotes from the article: | |||
| "With the dead in Germany's 'blood purge' reaching several hundred, according to a reliable source, Chancellor Adolf Hitler today | |||
| moved to strengthen his hold on the Reich by replacing the conservative, non-Nazi vice-Chancellor Franz Von Papen. It was expected that | |||
| before the end of the day Herman Wilhelm Goering, co-purger with Hitler in the ruthless suppression of 'traitors,' would be elevated to | |||
| the vice-chancellorship." | |||
| "President Von Hindenburg's strong protective hand was thrown around Von Papen after the 86 year old executive had congratulated | |||
| Mr Famekeeper, | |||
| Hitler and Goering on their "liquidation" with bullets of conservative and radical rebels against Hitlerism." | |||
| "But when Von Hindenburg spoke Hitler took steps to protect von Papen whose criticism of radical Nazis two weeks ago was the first | |||
| ... as for your proposal: | |||
| public sign of rumblings preceeding the 'bloody Saturday' of suppression." | |||
| "Major Mueldner von Muelhmheim, for many years adjutant to the former Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, was arrested because of his | |||
| 1) I cannot do anything for you in regard to the RfC. I didn't start and I won't stop it. If Robert, who started it is content with your behaviour he will do so himself. And I guess I would acquiesce in this too. | |||
| friendship for General Kurt von Schleicher, killed with his wife while 'resisting arrest' Saturday." | |||
| "The remarkable vitality of Von Hindenburg, hero of the army and the people, was demonstrated forcibly in his actions today." | |||
| "Yesterday his condition was so alarming that a "'major medical council' was called at his estate. Today he was able to walk in this | |||
| garden and to speak vigorously on matters vitally affecting the beloved Germany which he has served in war and peace for more than | |||
| half a century." | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 4, 1934. Headline: "Future Of Germany Is Contained In Decision On Fate Of Von Papen" | |||
| 2) I unfortunately cannot accept your proposal. We cannot create one article for your "accusations" and one for my "counter-point" - this would go against all Wiki principles I know: balance, NPOV. Two wrongs (in the sense that they are POV) don't make it right. Accusations should be included in the main article in a depov'ed language and counter-criticism should be next to it. (The same goes for a "Hitler's Pope" page - it covers the book and its accusations pluse a critical treatment of it - to make it NPOV). Apart from the fact that there probably is no fitting name for such a accusation page (Hitler's Pope is about the book, Pope's Hitler is -sorry to say it- nonsense and even "Catholic Holocaust complicity" doesn't actually say what the title suggests - our debate has never been about the Shoa (as I prefer to call it)). And I don't want to have to think of a catchy name for a defense page. Anyway, the main problem is that it'd violate NPOV. | |||
| SubHeading: | |||
| "Status Is Uncertain" | |||
| "Vice-Chancellor Said Appointed By Chief Executive as Check Against Extremists." | |||
| Notable quotes from the article: | |||
| "Out of a momentous night conference between Chancellor Adolf Hitler and President Paul Von Hindeburg at the latter's country estate, | |||
| Germany looked today for an answer to the big question mark arising from the 'second Nazi revolution'-the political fate of Vice Chancellor | |||
| Franz Von Papen, staunch friend of von Hindenburg." | |||
| "The future of von Papen was acknowledged to be of paramount importance to the nation, and, in turn, the world, for if he remained in the government Hitler would be hindered in his reported scheme for tightening the Nazi reins and if he went out a sweeping cabinet shakeup was forseen." | |||
| "Reliable sources pointed out that under the terms by which Hindenburg accepted the Hitler regime early in 1933, Von Papen was to be the President's confidante and informant, a check and balance." | |||
| :It also mentions that von Papen is a prisoner in his own home, but protected by the regular army. von Hindenburg prevented his removal temporarily, but it would only last until the death of von Hindenburg. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign --><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| {{cbot}} | |||
| :*Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? ] (]) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| I agree with you that the concordat should be included in Pius XI too (and Dilectissima certainly belong there - but in proper context). After all it was his concordat (like the others), though Pacelli did some negotiating. I though about this for some time. However, let us first settle the dispute on the other pages. | |||
| :*:A reputable historian will never call himself a secondary source for events that happened nearly a century ago. ] (]) 21:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :*:Contemporaneous press accounts are either primary sources or secondary sources. A historian's opinion is not a source. ] (]) 19:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :::*That is not correct. The opinions of experts are '''''always''''' considered to be reliable sources, although they should be presented as their opinions. ] (]) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :'''<redacted copyright violations>''' <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| So, I'm afraid I have to say: no. | |||
| :Look you need to stop with the ]. You are quoting far too much and we're going into copyright territory here. You are welcome to make specific improvements to the article or to suggest them, but you're playing around far too generally here and introducing wide swaths of facts that are strictly ] for a bio of this Pope. This pertains to one aspect of his reign, albeit major, but we need to keep it in perspective. ] (]) 22:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ] 12:15, 12 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::@], I've begun reverting your additions. Please do not add any more copyrighted material to this page. This is a talk page for discussion of article improvement, not a dumping ground for arbitrary data. ] (]) 22:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :You're not getting it. You are '''''not allowed''''' to post copyrighted material '''''anywhere on Misplaced Pages''''', except for '''''short excerpts'''''. Please see ] and ], and stop posting copyright violations. ] (]) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ==outside view== | |||
| ::Copyright expired on these articles. I was providing excerpts for your convenience. ] (]) 23:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| Looking at the rival edits, I have to say that ]'s fail NPOV by a mile. The language is biased and POV-loaded to a serious degree. It states as ''fact'' John Cornwell's ''analysis'', must of which, as with any historian's text about events he personally did not witness, is by definition ''supposition''. All historical writing is ''always'' treated with caution and critical analysis. (I'm a historian myself BTW). John's allegations need to be covered professionally in this article. Flamekeeper's version fails to deliver that. | |||
| ] | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3#Pope Pius XII: Illness and death}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 03:23, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Specifically | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| ] | |||
| ''Although an individual of self-less habit , he was a believer of the absolute leadership priciple . he more than anyone promoted the concept of absolute papal rule , diminuishing the earlier collegiality of the church councils . Modesty of appearance belied great subtlety and cunning as he inherited his forbears desire for the papacy to once again exert all powerful control over the church through ecclesiastical and international law .'' — all unsourced opinion. | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3#Pope Pius XII: illness and death}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 03:25, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ''It would also allow for imposition of the new Canon Law in the land of Martin Luther who had nearly 400 years previously publicly burnt a copy the canon law in act od defiance of centralised papal control .'' — irrelevant and pointless hyperbole. | |||
| ''.Pacelli noticed the repulsiveness of the Jewish leader Eugen Levine and of his followers and thence grew a suspicion and contempt of Jews for political reason'' — chronic and franky laughable mispresentation of what Cornwell wrote. | |||
| :And what Cornwell wrote already was a misrepresentation/mistranslation of what Pacelli wrote in his letter. | |||
| ''Pacelli also campaigned for Allied troops to not include colored soldiery in the occupied Rhineland, and in the aftermath of World War II repeated this demand of the Americans entering Rome'' — breaks cardinal rule of historiographical writing — never single out as remarkable attitudes of someone if they were reflective of contemporary attitudes. Pacelli's attitude were, unfortunately all too typical of the attitudes of most white people of his generation. If a pope ''today'' held those views when society doesn't it would be newsworthy. But all he was doing was reflecting contemporary attitudes. | |||
| ''Pacelli spent in all 13 years trying to re-write the German State Concordats one by one'' — deliberate mispresentation of fact out of context. The Vatican decided to rewrite the concordats. Pacelli was given the job. That misleading sentence implies he personally did it off his own bat. | |||
| :And "rewriting" was needed since even where concordat existed, they were with the monarchies. The revolution overturned the whole situtation and hence new concordats were needed. | |||
| ''He routinely involved himself in complicated territorial disputes following WWI ,trading Vatican support for German control under terms advantageous to the vatican Concordats . However the overall Reichskonkordat eluded him because both the catholic and the protestant population resisted this new authoritarian papal control .'' — POV mispresentation of what Cornwell and other historians ''actually'' say. | |||
| :And certainly, Catholics did not oppose a concordat. Quite the contrary. | |||
| ''Pacelli's long-standing house-keeper , Sister Pasquilina Lehnert , stated after Pacelli's death that Kaas regularly holidayed with him and was linked to him in "adoration , honest love and unconditional loyalty ." The slightly younger Kaas became an intimate collaborator in every aspect of Pacelli's vatican diplomacy in Germamy . Kaas served as secretary from 1925 and then with Pacelli's encouragement took the chairmanship of the influential catholoc Centre party Germany in 1928 . Officially Kaas , also a specialist in canon law , was the representative of democratic civil party , but one who was so attached to Pacelli that he became vitually his alter ego'' — Innuendo-filled mispresentation of what Cornwell actually wrote. | |||
| ''In the memoirs of the Chicago Daily News bureau chief for Berlin reference is made to an actual letter in 1932 , from Pacelli enjoining the Centre leadership to the papal wish for the success of Adolf Hitler . The letter which not been found , confirms essentially the Bruning meeting '' — if the letter can't be found then the charge cannot be made as there is no substantiation to prove it. History requires evidence. | |||
| :the letter is only mentioned by the journalist in question in his memoirs. But even he has not seen it. A Centre Party friend told him about it. And what he told him actually does not necessarily warrant what is in the above paragraph. | |||
| ''The spring of 1933 brought a thaw of approbation towards Hitler from the Vatican and from the German Hierarchy.'' — Without explaining the context of German politics in 1933 that sentence out of context constructs a false impression. | |||
| ''All was conducted in secret and over the heads of the German Bishops and faithful by Kaas, Pacelli and Hitler's catholic associate ex-Centre Foreign Minister ,Franz von Papen'' — misrepresentation of what Cornwell says. | |||
| ''Pacelli demanded the imposition of the new Canon Code of Law upon all catholics , as well as various educational measures '' — The Canon Law code was binding on all Catholics ''since 1917''!!! | |||
| I could go on with the other mistakes. Many are mispresentations of claims by Cornwell and others. Many are distortions. Many suggest that Flamekeeper is, to put it politely, inexperienced in how to wrote in an NPOV manner and how to write history. In addition the standard of English in the edit is appalling. Links are all wrong. Context is wrong. The understanding of Catholicism is all wrong. The grasp of what a diplomat does (and for much of the time Pacelli was a diplomat) is all wrong. The understanding of the context of the 1930s is non-existent. Historians follow a basic rule — analyse events in a time period taking into account the nature of the time period, eg, don't make a big issue of someone in the 1920s holding rascist, homophobic or sexist views; they were the norm then. But they would be a big issue in the 1970s or 1980s, when they were not the norm. Don't demand that someone possess an insight that we only have by knowing the outcome of events. Use the knowledge of what happened later to judge the wisdom of past decision, but don't demand that people who did not know what the future would bring that they act as though they know the future. | |||
| Quite frankly, Flamekeeper's edits are so POV-driven, so heavy-handed and on occasions so OTT as to be appalling. An article with so much conjecture, inaccuracy, POV and misdirected analysis could not possibly be let stand in an encyclop�dia. ]]\<sup><font color=blue>] 20:16, 14 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :So the situtation is worse than I imagined - worse for FK, that is, and slightly better for Cornwell. Still, even if Cornwell had said all this (and appearently he doesn't), it cannot be simply stated as fact. ] 21:16, 14 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, better for Cornwell. I have not re-read Cornwell within the past few months, but my recollection of what I did read is that much of what FK attributes to Cornwell is not what Cornwell wrote. Cornwell, for instance, does take into account the basic historian's rule as stated above, of noting that anti-Jewish sentiments were common among both German Catholics and Italian Catholics, and places Pacelli's thinking in that context. Cornwell, while very critical of Pacelli, presents a much more nuanced view than FK quotes him as presenting. ] 23:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::FK's turgid and detail-heavy writing tends to overstate Cornwell IMO. There was accomodation between the church and the Nazis in 1933 but this steadily degenerated. ] 22:37, 14 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 20:41, 5 December 2024
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Pope Pius XII article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19Auto-archiving period: 3 months  |
 | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
 | Pope Pius XII is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 3, 2006. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | This  level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
.svg)
Alleged reference
Pacelli presided as Papal Legate over the International Eucharistic Congress in Buenos Aires, Argentina in 10–14 October 1934, and in Budapest in 25–30 May 1938. At this time, anti-semitic laws were in the process of being formulated in Hungary. Pacelli made reference to the Jews "whose lips curse and whose hearts reject him even today".
Aside the fact that the quote is from what is at least a ternary source (because I assume the quote is faithful), as well as the question whether the pope knew anti-semitic laws were "being formulated" in Hungary at the same time, I don't think that the source proves that that the pope referred to Jews, but it explicitly denies that he made a direct reference, and this much is clear from the quote in the source:
Jesus conquers! He who so often was the recipient of the rage of his enemies, he who suffered the persecutions of those of whom he was one, he shall be triumphant in the future as well As opposed to the foes of Jesus, who cried out to his face, "Crucify him!"—we sing him hymns of our loyalty and our love. We act in this fashion, not out of bitterness, not out of a sense of superiority, not out of arrogance toward those whose lips curse him and whose hearts reject him even today
At the very least, the reference in the article should be reformulated to express doubt. I would prefer it to be expressed as an opinion of the author of the tertiary source unless there are others that independently agree. Paxcoder (talk) 20:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Cardinal Pacelli was not the Papal Nuncio to Argentina nor to Budapest. He was the Vatican's equivalent to Secretary of State. He was number two to Pope Pius XI whom the Nazis and Communists didn't want to become Pope. That's why they tried to assassinate him. They even tried to assassinate him when he became Pope Pius XII but the Papal security stopped all such attempts. It is dishonest to claim he was a supporter of the Nazis. 2603:9000:6213:3A00:C9F4:22A6:3346:1180 (talk) 02:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
References
- Marchione, 2002, p. 22
- Christian responses to the Holocaust: moral and ethical issues: Religion, theology, and the Holocaust, Donald J. Dietrich, p. 92, Syracuse University Press, 2003; ISBN 0-8156-3029-8
-
{{cite web}}: Empty citation (help) -
{{cite web}}: Empty citation (help)
Birthtime of Pope Pius XII
3:08 AM (02:08 GMT) was a probable birthtime of Pope Pius XII. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because of the differences of timezones. The standard time of Misplaced Pages is GMT, not including DST.
189.98.244.242 (talk) 13:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Historical error
"Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor on 30 January 1933 and sought to gain international respectability and to remove internal opposition by representatives of the church and the Catholic Centre Party. He sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Pacelli, Prelate Ludwig Kaas, the outgoing chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated first drafts of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20 July and ratified on 10 September 1933. Bishop Preysing cautioned against compromise with the new regime, against those who saw the Nazi persecution of the church as an aberration that Hitler would correct."
is incorrect on several points. The Associated Press reported in 1933 that "Goebells a minister without portfolio" signed the concordant for Germany. Hitler was not in charge of German government and hadn't even picked his staff yet. President Paul Von Hindenburg was in charge and would only agree to appoint Hitler as Chancellor if Hitler accepted the appointment of Von Papen as Vice Chancellor according to the Associated Press. The Associated Press reported that in 1934 when President Paul Von Hindenburg fell ill and was thought to be on his deathbed, Hitler arrested former Chancellors von schleicher and von Papen among other opponents of the Nazi party. The Associated Press articles of 1934 reported Hitler had von schleicher executed and was preparing to have von Papen executed as well when the President Paul von Hindenburg recovered from his illness and pleaded with Hitler to spare the life of von Papen. In 1934, the Associated Press reported that Hitler spared von Papen's life but put him under house arrest. von Papen remained under house arrest for the duration of the war. von Papen was not acting under Hitler's orders when he approached the Vatican about signing a Concordant. He acted under the authority of President Paul von Hindenburg. As Chancellor, Hitler did not have the authority to negotiate with the Vatican. In 1933, that authority was still in von Hindenburg's jurisdiction. The Concordant was not an endorsement of von Hindenburg nor was it an endorsement of Adolf Hitler. Von Papen remained under house arrest and was not convicted for war crimes at the Nuremberg trials because he was Hitler's prisoner not a participant in the government.
An interesting side note: In 1933 the Associated Press reported when Hitler was appointed Chancellor by von Hindenburg Albert Eistein resigned his Prussian citizenship and was quoted as stating "the Catholic church was the only organization telling the truth about the Nazis." HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 02:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- The AP reported in 1933? Do you have copies of the reports, or full citations other than nebulous dates? Elizium23 (talk) 19:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- If you think that Hitler didn't take immediate and total charge of the German government in 1933, you're the one guilty of historical error JHobson3 (talk) 20:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
yes. 1934 not 1935. Sorry about the mix up. I was putting them all in order yesterday by date. Discovered my memory was off by a year.
| Collectively, these are copyright violations, although individually they are not - hence collapsing rather than redacting. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
|---|
Subheading: German President Believes Four Years of Stability Ahead; Expresses Keen Interest In Contest In The United States." "... One of the outstanding results of the voting was that Adolf Hitler's strength dropped from 37.7 percent of the total ballots to 33 percent, and his National Socialist party delegation in the Reichstag was cut from 230 to 195." "The Communist Reichstag membership jumped from 89 to 100, the Centrists decreased their delegation from 75 to 70, the Nationalists returned 51 against 37 in the old Reichstag, and the Socialists dropped from 133 to 121."
"Chancellor Franz Von Papen, who has directed the German Government for a little less than six months, resigned today taking his whole cabinet out with him in the face of almost unanimous opposition in the new Reichstag. ..."
"For the second time in three months, Adolf Hitler, who was a corporal in the World War, applied today to Field Marshal Paul Von Hindenburg, President of Germany, to be made Chancellor of the Reich." "This time, in marked contrast to their meeting August 13, Hitler was invited to sit down for an hour and to talk with frank cordiality. As he departed from the president's residence, he was asked to come back for another conference next Tuesday."
Subheading 1: "President Von Hindenburg However, Imposes Certain Restrictions That May Prevent Acceptance New Honors." Subheading 2: " Limitations Set" Subheading 3: "Must Not Tamper With Reichswehr, Emergency Decrees And Other Safeguards of Law and Order; Nazi Leader Replies." "After nine years of striving, Adolf Hitler today received a mandate to form a cabinet, but it was under conditions which immediately at least, he could not accept. ..."
"Besieged by two groups of conflicting advisers, Adolf Hitler, leader of the National Socialist, decided today to put off until tomorrow his reply to President Von Hindenburg's reiterated conditional proffer of the chancellorship."
Bottom Caption: "Adolf Hitler writes President Paul Von Hindenburg that restrictions placed on proffered chancellorship of Germany are too cramping to insure successful administration of the high office."
Subheading 1: "Counter Offer" Subheading 2: " Nazi Leader Declares He Cannot Solve German Situation on Purely Parliamentary Basis of Action." Expected Nazi Tripe Follows
Subheading:"President of Republic Expresses Lack Confidence In Nazi Leader To Control Reichstag; Now Looking for Another Candidate" "President Von Hindenburg, who offered to make Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany if he could guarantee the support of the Reichstag, withdrew that offer today and called in leaders of the other parties to consider another candidate." "At any rate he could not command that support. The National Socialist party is the largest in the Reichstag but it is far short of a majority and Hitler could not swing the Nationalists or the Bavarian party into line." "He told the president last night he could not control the Reichstag, but he renewed his proposal that Von Hindenburg make him head of a 'presidential' cabinet to rule without consulting the parliament." "The president's refusal today made it plain that he has not sufficient confidence in Hitler to place him at the head of a government like that which Franz Von Papen headed, to rule solely with the presidential authority."
Follow the Associated Press reporting on the joint investigation by the Italian Police and the Papal gendarmerie. It is interesting and determined the target was Cardinal Pacelli. Unexploded bombs were summer of 1931, and February 13, 1932.
Subheading: "Former Chancellor Von Scheicher Is Killed" "In a day of summary punishment for those who challenged his authority--the denouncement of the crisis of recent weeks hastened by the disclosure of immoral orgies indulged in by leaders of his own Nazi storm troops -- the chancellor 'liquidated' leaders of a threefold opposition; the reactionary monarchists, the 'Catholic Action" group, and the left wing storm troopers who plotted his end." "Heinrich Klausner, leader of the 'Catholic Action' group was shot to death". — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 17:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Paul von Hindenburg gravely ill. Purge begins. von Papen placed under house arrest. "When reports of the calling together of physicians reached Berlin the rumor was quickly revived that von Hindenburg had written a 'political will' naming the conservative von Papen as his successor and enjoining the army, always faithful to the president, to help him if necessary". — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 20:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Notable quotes from the article: "With the dead in Germany's 'blood purge' reaching several hundred, according to a reliable source, Chancellor Adolf Hitler today moved to strengthen his hold on the Reich by replacing the conservative, non-Nazi vice-Chancellor Franz Von Papen. It was expected that before the end of the day Herman Wilhelm Goering, co-purger with Hitler in the ruthless suppression of 'traitors,' would be elevated to the vice-chancellorship." "President Von Hindenburg's strong protective hand was thrown around Von Papen after the 86 year old executive had congratulated Hitler and Goering on their "liquidation" with bullets of conservative and radical rebels against Hitlerism." "But when Von Hindenburg spoke Hitler took steps to protect von Papen whose criticism of radical Nazis two weeks ago was the first public sign of rumblings preceeding the 'bloody Saturday' of suppression." "Major Mueldner von Muelhmheim, for many years adjutant to the former Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, was arrested because of his friendship for General Kurt von Schleicher, killed with his wife while 'resisting arrest' Saturday." "The remarkable vitality of Von Hindenburg, hero of the army and the people, was demonstrated forcibly in his actions today." "Yesterday his condition was so alarming that a "'major medical council' was called at his estate. Today he was able to walk in this garden and to speak vigorously on matters vitally affecting the beloved Germany which he has served in war and peace for more than half a century."
SubHeading: "Status Is Uncertain" "Vice-Chancellor Said Appointed By Chief Executive as Check Against Extremists." Notable quotes from the article: "Out of a momentous night conference between Chancellor Adolf Hitler and President Paul Von Hindeburg at the latter's country estate, Germany looked today for an answer to the big question mark arising from the 'second Nazi revolution'-the political fate of Vice Chancellor Franz Von Papen, staunch friend of von Hindenburg." "The future of von Papen was acknowledged to be of paramount importance to the nation, and, in turn, the world, for if he remained in the government Hitler would be hindered in his reported scheme for tightening the Nazi reins and if he went out a sweeping cabinet shakeup was forseen." "Reliable sources pointed out that under the terms by which Hindenburg accepted the Hitler regime early in 1933, Von Papen was to be the President's confidante and informant, a check and balance."
|
- Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- A reputable historian will never call himself a secondary source for events that happened nearly a century ago. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Contemporaneous press accounts are either primary sources or secondary sources. A historian's opinion is not a source. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- That is not correct. The opinions of experts are always considered to be reliable sources, although they should be presented as their opinions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- <redacted copyright violations> — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 19:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Look you need to stop with the WP:WALLOFTEXT. You are quoting far too much and we're going into copyright territory here. You are welcome to make specific improvements to the article or to suggest them, but you're playing around far too generally here and introducing wide swaths of facts that are strictly WP:UNDUE for a bio of this Pope. This pertains to one aspect of his reign, albeit major, but we need to keep it in perspective. Elizium23 (talk) 22:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- @HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst, I've begun reverting your additions. Please do not add any more copyrighted material to this page. This is a talk page for discussion of article improvement, not a dumping ground for arbitrary data. Elizium23 (talk) 22:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're not getting it. You are not allowed to post copyrighted material anywhere on Misplaced Pages, except for short excerpts. Please see WP:Copyright violations and WP:NFCC, and stop posting copyright violations. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Copyright expired on these articles. I was providing excerpts for your convenience. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 23:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
"Pope Pius XII: Illness and death" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect Pope Pius XII: Illness and death has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3 § Pope Pius XII: Illness and death until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 03:23, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
"Pope Pius XII: illness and death" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect Pope Pius XII: illness and death has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3 § Pope Pius XII: illness and death until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 03:25, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages controversial topics
- Misplaced Pages former featured articles
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
- Old requests for peer review
- B-Class level-5 vital articles
- Misplaced Pages level-5 vital articles in People
- B-Class vital articles in People
- B-Class biography articles
- B-Class biography (politics and government) articles
- Unknown-importance biography (politics and government) articles
- Politics and government work group articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- B-Class European Microstates articles
- High-importance European Microstates articles
- B-Class Vatican City articles
- Top-importance Vatican City articles
- Vatican City articles
- WikiProject European Microstates articles
- B-Class Christianity articles
- Mid-importance Christianity articles
- B-Class Christian theology articles
- Mid-importance Christian theology articles
- Christian theology work group articles
- B-Class Catholicism articles
- High-importance Catholicism articles
- WikiProject Catholicism articles
- WikiProject Christianity articles
- B-Class Italy articles
- Mid-importance Italy articles
- All WikiProject Italy pages
- B-Class Cold War articles
- Low-importance Cold War articles
- Cold War task force articles
- B-Class Rome articles
- Low-importance Rome articles
- All WikiProject Rome pages