| Revision as of 11:51, 17 May 2008 editPatW (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,382 edits →Teaching section← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 07:20, 20 November 2024 edit undoMathglot (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors86,370 edits →top: Drop redundant {{Archives}} search box; duplicates list from Talk header. |
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*This talk page contains numerous non-archive subpages involving past disagreements, including: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]. |
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== Subpages == |
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== Visualisation of footnotes == |
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*This talk page contains numerous non-archive subpages involving past disagreements, including: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ] |
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* Sources: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ] |
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(please keep this section lower on the page than any footnotes that are to be visualised) |
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*Reference quotations removed from inline cites: ] |
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* Related talk of a merged page: ] |
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== Incorrect sources == |
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===1=== |
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*''On June 17, 1971, during his school holidays, Rawat flew to England alone. His arrival attracted substantial media interest. On June 20 he spoke at the Glastonbury Fayre, and on July 17, after brief trips to Paris and Heidelberg, flew to Los Angeles to begin an American tour.'' |
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**Pryor, ''The Survival of the Coolest'', p. 148. |
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**Melton, J. Gordon. Entry "DIVINE LIGHT MISSION", subtitle "Controversy" in ''Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America''. Garland, 1986 (revised edition), ISBN 0-8240-9036-5 pp. 144–5 |
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''The Survival of the Coolest'' appears to concern another "Maharaj Ji" (perhaps the guru of Ram Dass), not Prem Rawat or his father. The "Ji" in that book wears a Sikh-style turban and is never described as a child or young person even though the action is set in the late 1960s. Neither that book nor Melton mention anything about Glastonbury, Paris, Heidelberg, or school holidays. ]] ] 02:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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: These sources may have been conflated and mixed up during the last shuffle. It would not be difficult to find the correct sources for these statements. ] <small>]</small> 03:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:: Glastonbury source: |
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::{{quotation|Maharaj Ji decided to take his message of peace outside India in 1970. He made his first appearance in the West in 1971 at a pop music festival in Glastonbury, England. ''Biography: Maharaj Ji'', Britannica Book of the Year (1974), p.154. }} |
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::] <small>]</small> 03:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::The error predates any recent shuffles. The assertions were added without any source by Marvin Khan in October 2005.. You soon added the Pryor citation for the assertion about drug use. Then in May 2006 Momento deleted the text about drug use and so made it appear the Pryor citation supported the Heidelberg, etc., material (this deletion of material with retention of orphaned citations seems to happen a lot). So this mistake was due to Marvin Khan, Jossi, Momento, and every editor who didn't check their work. ]] ] 09:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::: Yes, that happens. ] <small>]</small> 19:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::It's an argument for a thorough review/rewrite of the article when the protection is lifted. ]] ] 19:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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===2=== |
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Thanks, that sources at least some of it. Here's another similar problem: |
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*''In September 1971 the U.S. Divine Light Mission (DLM) was established in Denver, Colorado. In October, Rawat returned to India to celebrate his father's birthday, and in 1972 came back to the West, this time accompanied by his mother, eldest brother Satpal, and an entourage of mahatmas and other Indian supporters. A festival which DLM held in Montrose, Colorado was attended by 2,000 people.'' |
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**Melton, J. Gordon. ''Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America''. pp. 141–2. Entry: Divine Light Mission |
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This is far more detail than Melton gives. I presume there's another source. ]] ] 04:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:: Is any of that text disputed? ] <small>]</small> 19:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::No, but we don't want material that's unverifiable in the article. Do we? ]] ] 19:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::: Unless is disputed/challenged (per ]). ] <small>]</small> 19:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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===3=== |
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*'' "I was told that probably the best question to ask you, out of sincerity, is: 'Who are you?' Maharaj Ji: "... really I can't say who I am. But, though, there is a very basic thing, what I feel about myself. And that is that people have been claiming me as God or as Jesus or so on, and, ah, many television people have been asking this question, and this is an interesting question of course. I thought maybe you will be interested in the answer. I am not Jesus and I am not God or so on, but I am just a humble servant of God, and I am preaching this Knowledge, and it's ideal of humanity. I don't want to form a small sect or a religion. It's an open thing to all. It's for all casts, all creeds, all colors. And man is human, and it's OK he can receive it. And it's something that is internal, something that does not interfere with any religion. And this is the highest thing that I am teaching, about the people of this time, today. I don't claim myself to be God. I don't claim myself to be something like that, but I can claim I can show you God."'' |
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**43 Reporter at Montrose, Colorado, 25 July, 1972 |
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Does this reporter have a name? Did he publish his report in any publication? ]] ] 04:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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: In my notes I have material from an interview by a reporter that took place in Montrose, CO on July 25 1972 that matches that text, bur my notes does not say were it was published. I will need to research this. In any case, there are other sources with similar statements. ] <small>]</small> 19:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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: What material in the article is based on that source? ] <small>]</small> 19:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:: For the material in the article, you can use this source (my highlight): ''Maharaj Ji teaches that God is the source of all life. "God is an omniscient power that is hidden in the secret recesses of all living things. ..." The guru claims that he alone has the key to the knowledge of the source of God. He has promised his premies that with this key (his meditative techniques), they can get in touch with this source. His God is, then, an energy that is always present and cannot be removed by temporal circumstances. '''Maharaj Ji does not claim to give God to his devotees, but to put them in touch with the God that has been present in them all along'''.'' Stonner, C. & Parke J. ''All God's Children'' ] <small>]</small> 19:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:: And also: ''The guru does not claim to be God, but claims that through teaching his followers ("Premies") meditation and discipline, he can put them in touch with the God who has been with them all along.'' <ref> Kaslow W. F., Sussman, M. ''Cults and the Family'' (1982), p. 10, Haworth Press, ISBN 0-917-72455-0</ref> ] <small>]</small> 19:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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*''Despite his denial in a July, 1972 interview of any belief that he was the Messiah, pre-existing millennial expectations were fostered partly by his mother, whose talks were full of references to her son's divine nature, and partly by Rawat himself who generally encouraged whatever view was held by people.'' |
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That goes way beyond what the unknown reporter writing in the unknown newspaper wrote. The quote from the interview doesn't even mention the mother. ]] ] 19:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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: The text about "pre-existing millennial expectations" is from another source if I recall. Will have to dig it up. ] <small>]</small> 19:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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===4=== |
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*''In accordance with Sant precepts Rawat has never developed a systematic doctrine, and the core of his teaching has remained the process of self-discovery, summed up by his statement, "Receive this Knowledge and know God within yourself. That pure energy, God, is within your own heart".'' |
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**http://en.wikiquote.org/Prem_Rawat#1970s Peace Bomb satsang], 11 October 1970, India Gate, New Delhi, India (translated from Hindi) |
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Wikiquote is obviously unacceptable as a source (the entry there is unsourced). Besides that, the text is making conclusions which should be cited to a secondary source. ]] ] 05:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:: That source is not appropriate for that text, but there are many sources available that can be used for that material. ] <small>]</small> 19:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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== DLM article additions == |
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::I've added good detail from the DLM article. I haven't removed any existing material.] (]) 00:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Re. "I haven't removed any existing material": |
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:::* You removed "Maharaj" and "by his family and his father's followers" from "When his father died in 1966, the eight-year-old '''Sant Ji Maharaj''' (as Prem Rawat was then known) was accepted by his family and his father's followers as the new ]." |
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:::* You removed "Most of the mahatmas either returned to India or were dismissed.", nonetheless referenced to Downton. |
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:::So, that's the lies. |
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:::There are other remarks too, e.g. inserting repetition of the same material (why?) - e.g. |
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:::* How many times does his mother return to India? Added again , but was already in ] (1st paragraph). |
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:::* Is this an exercise in how many Downton references can be added consecutively? |
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:::--] (]) 05:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::: Nice... Less that a few hours that the article is unprotected and this whole thing starts again? If one believes that an editor has made a "sloppy edit", rather than revert his work, why no fix/improve upon it? This type of behavior is the one that caused numerous problems before, and would be best avoided. ] <small>]</small> 14:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Aside from being sloppy and with an untruthful edit summary (it looks like information '''was''' removed), if the edit in question does not add anything relevant to the topic it should probably be removed, and then discussed if necessary. In fact, since just about everything here seems so contentious why not discuss things first? That doesn't seem like such a burden if it helps remove this type of behaviour. Also, generally speaking (and of course there will be '''some''' overlap) DLM info does not need to be repeated here, that just bloats up the article unnecessarily. The information is already in the DLM article. -- ] <small>]</sup></small> 15:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::Rawat was never known as "Sant Ji Maharaj" and is not referred to as such in the cited sources. Was "accepted" doesn't need "by his family and his father's followers". Cited nine sources of which two were Downton is hardly a crime. And I apologize for leaving out the mahatmas, an unintentional omission and having Mataji go to India twice was also a mistake.] (]) 10:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::I'm pretty certain Prem Rawat signed his name as Sant Ji Maharaj. Maybe someone can confirm.] (]) 18:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::: According to Divine Times Volume 2, No 23 - December 11 1973 - <i>The legal name of Guru Maharaj Ji is Sant Ji Maharaj, Param Hans Satgurudev Shri Sant Ji Maharaj</i> Also I see I was correct that he signed his name as Sant Ji Maharaj. Here is a which was published in the "Divine Times" Volume 3 Issue 4, October 15, 1974. Incidentally these magazines are available in the library not just at ex-premie.org where there is from the 'Special Millenium '73 Edition' of the Divine Times, page 2, under the heading 'A Festival for the Whole World' ] (]) 18:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::::*1975: "Proclamation for 1975, signed Sant Ji Maharaj the name by which Prem Rawat was known at that time. ''Divine Times'' (Vol.4 Issue.1, February 1, 1975)" (sorry, I have only a reference to a sister project for that: ]) --] (]) 19:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::He may have been called that after he became Guru but not before. As per U. S. Department of the Army, Religious Requirements and Practices of Certain Selected Groups: A Handbook for Chaplains (2001) pp.1-5 , The Minerva Group, ISBN 0-89875-607-3 "Following his death, Shri Hans Ji appointed the youngest of his four sons, Sant Ji as the next Perfect Master and therefore he assumed the head of the Divine Light Mission as decreed by his father."] (]) 23:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::So what's your point? Do you think the article should not explain that 'Sant Ji Maharaj' is a historic pseudonym of Prem Rawat? ] (]) 06:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::My point is the source cited says his was known as "Sant JI".] (]) 08:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC) |
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== Following his death, Shri Hans Ji appointed the youngest of his four sons, Sant Ji as the next Perfect Master... == |
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Gosh, and I thought the hard-headed secularists here didn't believe in divine power. :D ] (]) 11:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC) |
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==Teaching section== |
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:I cleaned up the Teaching section and corrected several errors but it was immediately reverted by Francis . |
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:Here are the errors he re-inserted - |
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*1. Lipner doesn't refer to "dogma" or " direct inner experience' but to "ritual" and "true religion is a matter of loving and surrendering to God who dwells in the heart" as I corrected |
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*2. Galanter source refers to premies giving satsang not Rawat which I corrected. |
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*3. Naming Van der lans and Derks is undue weight, which I corrected. |
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*4. Inserted material than has been tagged "citation needed" for more than a month, which I corrected. |
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:And it reads very badly, so I have reverted back.] (]) 06:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::I have relocated the material about his "teachings" from the "Leaving India" section to the "Teachings" section. Isolated where it was, it gave an incomplete picture without any supporting context. I have deleted the Time quote and the Collier quote as undue weight and they are not necessary in the "teachings" section. I am certain I have not lost any important material in the move.] (]) 22:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:Momento, can you please add the citations when you add material? I mean here:. I don't understand why you deleted the ''Time'' material. How much weight is undue weight? What's your standard? Why are some sources attributed but for others it's undue weight? Moving on, this edit which deletes a source and adds material says "see talk", but I don't see the discussion. Last but not least, this edit deletes sourced material with the note, "Removed misquoted Galanter". I tried to find "Galanter, Mark M.D. ''Cults and new religious movements: a report of the committee on psychiatry and religion of the American Psychiatric Association''. 1989, ISBN 0-89042-212-5 p. 20", but page 20 doesn't mention the subject. Which page are you reading that is misquoted? ]] ] 04:33, 17 May 2008 (UTC) |
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== prem rawat guru maharaji medition == |
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:Is this the Fahlbusch source for the rivalry? I don't see any mention of it there. Can you give the citation and quote the source please? ]] ] 05:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC) |
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une programe of guru maharaji ] (]) 14:36, 3 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::It hasn't taken Momento long to get back into his old unwelcome tricks ie. removing material which has been discussed many times. When is someone going to stop this absurd POV pushing? And how? Will, you should know perfectly well what this vandals standard is by now. Anything that is critical about his guru gets removed at the earliest possible convenience. What a complete farce. Also the guy has been criticised until the cows come home by almost everyone who comes here and yet he carries on without a hint of embarassment. What does that tell me? He is probably working for Prem Rawat and is just following orders. Anyone who was an unbiased editor would have been long ago piqued by social conscience into being more reasonable. Also Momento is clearly laughing at you and Francis when you ask him your polite little questions. Do you really think he's going to give you a sensible answer? No he is plainly delighted at your impotence to stop him doing exactly what his bosses want.] (]) 11:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) |
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