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The worst damn Prime Minister of the UK since tony blair. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Golden Brown ==
I added "The gold sales have earned him the pejorative nickname Golden Brown, and there is also a satirical parody song by the same name." which was undone by TheologyJohn on the grounds that "rare nickname - never heard it, and I am a fair bit of a politics". Leaving aside our own TaxFreeGold website, may I cite a leading article in The Guardian Thursday March 11, 1999 ]. Google shows over 11,000 entries for +"golden brown" +"gordon brown" ].
I consider my addition to have been accurate, relevant, and as neutral as possible considering its subject matter. ] 09:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:You're quite right, it was a valid edit that deserves to be there, and I've restored it. I don't want to apologise as such because I don't believe I was morally culpable for removing it, but I was certainly in factual error, and I am sorry if that in any way offended you or anything.

:The reason I removed it without fact-checking first is simply the fact that, as I'm sure you'll understand, pages on important political figures tend to get filled of all sorts of random little insignificant factoids that support the political views of whoever edits the page.

:While I'm not academically trained in politics and don't understand the subject to that level, I do spend upwards of 10-15 hours a week reading and learning about it, and cannot recall ever coming across that nickname - although I may of course misremember. Under those , I didn't see the point of doing research - if I did that on everything on those pages (or similarly initially suspect edits elsewhere), I would have significantly less time for other things on wikipedia - especially as I was operating entirely within the rules of wikipedia.

:WP:Verify states:

::The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material.

:and

::Any edit lacking a source may be removed.

:] 17:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:::The correct spelling of satire is without a "Y". I have added a "citation needed" tag to your amusing edit.] 19:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The (presumably) American spell-checker on my PC tried to correct my satyrical to satirical, but our copy of The Oxford English Dictionary, second edition volume XIV, gives both spellings. The entry for satire states "also satyre".] 21:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes but "satyre" is a different word. Just because "board" and "bored" are said the same, they are of course completely different words. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:When a different spelling is under the same definitionit means the same thing so its nothing like Board and Bored. Satyre is an older spelling. many words in English have multiple spellings because its based on west german languages and Norman French (A latin based language). Both are acceptable but Satire is better because it's more universally accepted.(] (]) 22:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC))

== Brown stealing Tories ideas ==
Anyone think this deserves a mention? (] 14:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC))

:Maybe, if it is properly sourced. I'm not sure that your user name is appropriate. Who is this "Willieboy"? ] 16:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

::Also, which ''Tory ideas'' does ] have in mind?] 19:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

As long as it's made clear that they are only accusations that don't actually hold up considering they have touched on inheritance tax and non domiciles before - and stopping non domiciles is pretty important to economic prosperity which Brown has frequently said he is aiming for. That part of this article is clearly written by some Tory prat. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Au contraire- knee jerk reaction by Brown to a strong performance by Cameron and a reflected bounce in the polls. It is essential to ensure that labour sycophants don't take over the editing of this article. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::: Brown is not just a Tory but a Thatcherite just as Blair was before him. There is no substantial difference between him and Cameron. ]&nbsp;] 08:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

==Vandalism==

Something wired is happening. I'm trying to revert recent vandalism, but my edit isn't taking. ] | ] 19:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

== Head of state in infobox ==

There's currently a disturbance at the current Canadian prime minister's article, ], regarding the inclusion of the head of state in the article's infobox, and, following that, on all previous Canadian prime ministers' articles; currently the Canadian series is the only one, as far as I can tell, where the relevant head of state is not listed in the infobox.

As this article, and all those for previous British prime ministers, list the head of state in the infobox, I'm wondering how the decision to do so was reached, and if this practice should or should not be the same for all PMs' articles. It seems odd to me that one series of PM articles would be different to all the rest.

Opinions are welcome; needed actually. The discussion is taking place at ]. --] 15:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
:I don't see why all PM's in all countries need the exact same infobox. The monarch technically appoints the Prime Minister and in the early days of the British premiership the monarch had considerable influence over who was appointed PM so I think it's an important part of the British PM infobox&mdash;British PMs still go to "kiss hands" at Buckingham Palace. Canadian and Australian PM infoboxes will differ because of the strong republican feeling in those countries and because when they started having PM's they were already constitutional monarchies with the monarch having no influence in the appointment.--] 17:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
::Given the succession to the Premiership of Alex Douglas Home, and the first General Election of 1974, I'd suggest the monarch still holds significant influence over who to appoint - if only in certain circumstances ] (]) 17:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

:::Home was appointed before the Conservatives had formal leadership elections. And the monarch ''didn't'' appoint anyone in February 1974 - Heath did not resign his office (and constitutionally there was no requirement to - the Commons had not yet voted him out and it wasn't clear if he could or couldn't form a government). Remember Heath left Downing Street in less time after the election than many Prime Ministers do in clear cut results, both in the UK (e.g. Baldwin in 1929) or elsewhere in the world (right now ] is still the Australian PM, ] won't become so until later in the week). ] (]) 18:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

== Zimbabwe? ==
What is Gordon Brown's view on Zimbabwe?

– He thinks it's lovely, and would like to go there on holiday. He hears the exchange rate is rather good at the moment, too. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Dictator rubbish==
What is this dictator nonsense that we are introduced with on Gordon Brown? This should be edited immediately, as it lowers the stature of Misplaced Pages as a reliable source of information. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


"Unelected?" <<lost my ID card, so can't remember who I am.>> <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Tony Blair wasn't elected, his party was...did you elect the leader of the opposition?] (]) 23:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

== Wikinews ==

There should be a link to http://en.wikinews.org/Category:Gordon_Brown --] 23:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

== Deputy ==
Is his deputy Harman (his deputy in the House of Commons), Darling (who seems to be the next most powerful cabinet minister), Martin (next in precedence for the gentlemen), Ashton (who has a fixed place in the men's precedence despite being a woman) or Straw (the man previously hought to have been given the positions of Deputy PM and/or First Secretary of State)? ] (]) 19:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

== Signature ==

Can anyone confirm that the signature in the article is really Gordon Brown's signature? It doesn't really look like the kind of signature that an adult would use. ] (]) 19:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
:It seems to be taken from at the Labour website. There's actually another (less messy-looking) signature at but it would probably need to be changed into a PNG or SVG to be used here (no idea how to do that myself, alas). ''']''' 19:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
:I can well believe that it is Brown's signature. He lost much of his eyesight in an accident, and it is entirely plausible that that would have affected his handwriting in that kind of way. ] (]) 16:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
::I didn't think of that. I assumed that as the image was released under the GFDL it was self made. I think I will raise the issue of the image not being free on the image page ] (]) 23:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

== DOB ==

Can we get a date of birth on this page? Brown was born on 20 February 1951. ] (]) 22:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
:It's in the infobox. ] (]) 22:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

== Monarch in infobox ==

A debate over the inclusion of the monarch in the infoboxes of Canadian prime ministers, similar to what is done here and at all other British PM articles, has re-emerged at ]. Opinions on the matter are welcome, if not necessary! --] (]) 03:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

==Gorden Brown's signature==

Is that really Brown's signature? It looks totally retarded, the way you would expect a five year old to sign their name. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

*As mentioned previously, Gordon Brown has very bad eye sight (including a glass eye) due to a rugby accident in his late teens/ early twenties. Hence, his poor handwriting. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Not Elected==
I think that it should be mentioned in the opening paragraph that Gordon Brown was not elected into his position and merely Tony Blair's successor. ] (]) 00:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
:He was elected. We all knew he would succeed Blair. ] (]) 12:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

82.41: - by elected do you mean the voting public? We do not elect prime ministers - this is not the United States! Blair and Brown both met with the Queen if you actually watched the news. When exactly was John Major ever elected by the people when Thatcher left? --] (]) 19:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
::In 1992, oh and thats a very inadequate answer to give. This may not be the US and we may not directly vote for the leaders of political parties but when your putting your ballot in the box you'll be thinking Brown, Cameron or some other leader- you won't be thinking about your local candidates too much. ] (]) 16:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)] (]) 16:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
:::You should be, thats who your voting for. All PM's are unelected so it shouldn't be mentioned unless put into context eg. he's never lead his party in a general election.(] (]) 22:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC))
::Regardless GS, no members of the public voted for Major to become PM in 1990 when Thatcher left. --] (]) 19:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

== Political Positions of Gordon Brown ==

Is there a reason for this article not existing? David Cameron has this article, and they're normally very useful for quickly referring to political positions... --] (]) 22:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC) (whoops, should have signed as --] (]) 22:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC))

==Driving licence==
There is currently a statement in this article that Brown doesn't have a driving licence. How is the webpage cited in any way an authoritative source on the matter? What a joke of an encyclopaedia Misplaced Pages sometimes reveals itself to be in its acceptance of anything as a reliable source. You have a ], why not stick to it? ] (]) 19:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
:I have replaced the citation with one to a 2001 Sunday Times article. Thank you for your input. ] (]) 21:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
::Good stuff, thanks! ] (]) 00:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


The Telegraph has recently apologised for 'misinformation' about the issue of Gordon Brown's driving license. It appears that he does have one.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politics/threelinewhip/march2008/brown-driving2.htm <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 11:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Dispute whether details correct on Gold Sale ==

Gold sales: Between 1999 and 2002 Brown sold 60% of the UK's gold reserves at $275 an ounce.

I'd raise a question about this source as when I click the link for no page exists so the price of $275 per troy ounce can not be verified. I have the figure as being slightly lower at $250. It would be interesting to see what the figure really is as these Gold Sales were staged over a period of 2 years and sold on different dates it would be good to see an authoritive source detailing all the sale quantities, their dates, and the exchange rate on those dates so we can obtain a true average. ] (]) 19:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
:FYI: at www.archive.org. ] (]) 20:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

== Factors affecting Gordon Brown's career ==

Can someone please add the important note that Gordon Brown has an uncanny resemblence to Mr. Bean (a.k.a Rowan Atkinson) - this is seen by some as the main contributing factor to his successful career. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Well, as Vince Cable stated, Brown went from Stalin to Mr. Bean in just a week. ] (]) 18:53, 8 April 2008

Also, Gordon Brown looks like a paedophile(UTC)

== Main picture ==
Perhaps fitting with the rest of the article, the current top image is out of date and just not very good. Does anyone think an image like this: cc photo may be better? obviously it would need cropping --] (]) 12:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


__TOC__
== Zimbabwean Elections ==


== Harriet Harman succeeded Brown not Miliband ==
Mugabe called Gordon Brown a "little tiny dot on the world" on Saturday 12th April 2008. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


The infobox is wrong to state that Ed Miliband succeeded Brown as Labor Leader.
As much as i hate like Gordon Brown i hate arogant totalitarian dictators who pretend to be freedom fighters even more. Mugabe is basically saying that Britain no longer has any influence on the world stage. This is largely true, but we have a damn site more than Zimbabwe. If Gordon Brown is a "little tiny dot on the world" then Mugabe is a tiny little tiny dot on the world. (())] (]) 15:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


As it was Harriet Harman instead serving for an interim period pending the election of the new permanent leader which turned out to be Miliband.
== Driving licence ==


Harman's interim leadership should count for something. ] (]) 13:14, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
] currently states ''Gordon Brown does not possess a driving licence.'' - According to this he does indeed possess one. Neither source seems more credible than the other (both political comment pieces in major national newspapers) but given the uncertainty shouldn't this claim be removed? ] (]) 15:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
:{{done}} This has now been corrected. -- ] (]) 13:16, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
:I'm not sure this should have been included in the article to begin with. It just seems to be a small piece of unimportant trivia to me. Having said that, and both back up the claim however I still don't believe it's noteworthy enough to be on the page.] (]) 14:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
::I've not thought about it before, but I agree, it isn't relevent to the article, so it is now no more... regards, ] (]) 15:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


::Thank you. ] (]) 13:31, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
== British (Scottish)? ==
Can we rewrite this to simply "British", or will the Scotch nationalists cause a furore? I'm not being a pedant, it's just that any other politician who happens to be of English origin, is simply referred to as ]. Case in point, ], ], ]. ] (]) 13:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


Tony Blair is scottish, but yes I agree with you. ] (]) 15:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC) It still says Ed Milliband at the bottom. ] (]) 13:33, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
:Also {{done}}. -- ] (]) 13:37, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
::{{ping|Emir of Misplaced Pages}} Actually let's put the breaks on that since consensus has yet to be established. This is, in fact, a common misconception which does not pay credence to article precedents nor internal party rules. This is reflected on Harman's page where it states that her role as Leader of the Opposition was ratified but her role as acting Labour leader was merely a pragmatic move due to her role as deputy. Ditto for ]'s article. ] (]) 13:58, 30 October 2020 (UTC)


Yes, surely we have enough evidence of his Britishness: choosing to be an MP rather than an MSP; taking the role of PM; his pronouncements about what it means to be British, etc. ] (]) 15:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC) :::This has nothing to do with the position of Leader of the Opposition as I just stated elsewhere on this page that Brown did not serve in that position after losing the election.] (]) 16:30, 30 October 2020 (UTC)


:::Whether it is called pragmatic in regards to Harman the fact still remains is that Miliband wasn't leader in the immediate period after Brown's resignation, readers might be misled in thinking that Miliband succeeded Brown when the latter's resignation came into effect.] (]) 16:35, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
== Gordon Brown ==
::::{{tq|the fact still remains is that Miliband wasn't leader in the immediate period after Brown's resignation}} Correct but neither was Harman. I know it's quite confusing but my above reasons are why we have this precedent.


::::{{tq|readers might be misled in thinking that Miliband succeeded Brown when the latter's resignation came into effect}} I think a main text clarification is what is needed to address that rather than making the infobox inaccurate. ] (]) 19:27, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
{{resolved}}
] (]) 19:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)Gordon Brown's girlfriend mentioned in his Misplaced Pages entry was not Marion Calder, but Marion Caldwell, whom I remember as a secretary on the Sunday Post newspaper in Glasgow, but who subsequently trained as a lawyer. When last I heard of her she had become an Advocate Depute.


== First defeated Prime Minister who did not serve as Leader of the Opposition ==
Willie Morrison, Inverness] (]) 19:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
] (]) 19:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
: Thank you - well spotted --] (]) 00:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


It should be stated in the article that Brown became the first defeated Prime Minister who did not then serve as Leader of the Opposition. ] (]) 13:15, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
== Bias ==
:We would need a ] to make that claim. ] (]) 13:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC)


If you want reliable sources how about Misplaced Pages itself. I cross referenced this with the Leader of the Opposition (United Kingdom) and the UK election articles to find that all other Prime Ministers who were voted out then served as Leader of the Opposition.
This article seems to be written with a negative bias against the prime minister. Could it not be written in a more neutral tone? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Brown however did not serve as Leader of the Opposition after losing the election, a fact of which is presented in this article itself.] (]) 16:28, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
:Not at the moment! <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::I somewhat agree with the above comment. I can't see the section be written in a more neutral tone at the moment, because that is the truth. ] (]) 21:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC) :Please see ], but thank you for trying to help. -- ] (]) 16:36, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Frankly this is no different than being asked to provide evidence to an answer for a simple math problem.
It simply isn't needed.
I asked that you don't quote me with anymore Misplaced Pages rules because I don't feel you understand what I am getting at by doing that.
It seems to me there are one of two reasons why are a defeated Prime Minister would serve as Leader of the Opposition.
The first is the belief that a former Prime Minister can reclaim the premiership.
The other reason is to fill in the position for a stop-gap period until his party chooses his successor as leader.
Whether it is for one of the two reasons I have just outlined, a former Prime Minister as Opposition Leader would use this position to defend against criticism from the current Government on what he did when he was Prime Minister.
Brown evidently expressed no interest in reclaiming the premiership and chose not to wait for his party to choose his permanent successor hence not becoming Leader of the Opposition in the meantime. ] (]) 13:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)


== Keeping Count ==
I'd say the article is fairly neutral. Many politicians have "controversies" in their articles. Also, Gordon Brown is very unpopular in Britain as of late.] (]) 15:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


Gordon Brown is the 74th Prime Minister. To those of you saying "nobody keeps count", how can you argue with a government source? This website is based on verifiable evidence, well, there it is. <ref>https://www.gov.uk/government/history/past-prime-ministers</ref>] (]) 16:57, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
: Controversy sections are discouraged as it splits articles into positive and negative sections. Unregistered users currently cannot edit the page (]), but suggestions on what can be improved (on this page) will be welcome. If you have a specific change you want to make, suggest it here with the text {{tl|editprotected}}. --] (]) 16:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
:{{u|DaleYorks}}, that source only says here are 76, it doesn't say there are only 76 or give each an index number. It certainly doesn't support changing the office names of individual prime ministers by adding numbers to them. And ] says wait for a consensus if challenged. -- ] (]). 17:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


I appreciate the response. It's a bit of common sense to know when someone was first (and so forth).
== Iron Chancellor ==
] (]) 17:12, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


::Regardless of whether he is 74th or 76th, the fact is that, in the United Kingdom, we do not "count" our prime ministers in the way that Americans count their presidents. To say that someone is the 76th or whatever prime minister looks a bit weird, and is not what most readers would expect. So my vote is to delete the count.
Can someone add the fact that he has been called the Iron Chancellor on numerous occasions?
::] (]) 17:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
:'''Delete''' Per UK style. ] (]) 11:59, 4 February 2021 (UTC)


{{reflist-talk}}
References:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3545669.stm
http://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Iron+chancellor%22+%22gordon+brown%22&btnG=Search&meta=
] (]) 00:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


== AS ==
== Lack of respect shown to our American overlords? ==


Why no mention? ] (]) 04:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
"Brown made his first overseas trip as Prime Minister not to Washington, but to Berlin, and spoke to German Chancellor Angela Merkel."
] (]) 11:02, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


== Crewe by election == == "First Secretary" ==


Why is "First Secretary"/ Mandelson in the summary box for Brown's term as Prime Minister? ] (]) 09:00, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
Brown has just turned a 17% labour majority into a 17% tory one.


:As a guess i'd say it's probably because the First Secretary is basically the PM's deputy. We have Deputy PMs listed in other PMs' info boxes too so I personally don't see any problems with Mandelson's inclusion as FS here either. ] (]) 22:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
:I think the 17% related to the "swing", not specifically to the majority (it just so happens that the majority by which the winning candidate won at the by-election happens to be an almost "mirror reversal" of the majority at the last general election — Conservative candidate by about 8,000 votes at the 2008 by-election, Labour candidate by about 7,000 votes at the 2005 general election). Also, I don't think that one can fairly say that Brown "has just turned a ... Labour majority into a ... Tory one" — the responsibility for that change cannot be so simply pin-pointed! ] (]) 13:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


== gordon brown home office blocked investigations into sexual exploitation ==
::I have to agree with ]. It does not fit to be added to this article. I don't think he is directly responsible. Also, regarding the majority, according to ] article, the majority is 18.9, while the swing is 17.6. ] (]) 22:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


Nazir Afzal, when he was chief crown prosecutor for North West England, told the BBC that, in 2008, the Home Office under Gordon Brown’s administration sent a circular email to all police forces calling on them not to investigate the sexual exploitation of young girls.
==Accent==


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2023/04/05/grooming-gangs-scandal-labour-yvette-cooper-keir-starmer/ ] (]) 22:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
The main article notes that "Gordon Brown was depicted in Season 12 of ''South Park'' sitting at a table of world leaders opposite Nicolas Sarkozy in the episode 'Canada on Strike'. He was accurately portrayed speaking in an English accent, having long abandoned his native Scottish accent." — That is as may be, but to many English people he still sounds Scottish (though I'll admit his accent is "muted"; it is not, however, an "English accent"). Also, do we know that he has actively chosen to "abandon" his Scottish accent? Might it not simply be that living (effectively) in England for some years and being surrounded largely by English people has meant that his accent has become muted? ] (]) 13:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


:i am not sure what article to put this under to be quite frank ] (]) 22:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
==Controversies==
There are two major controversies missing. The first is his raid on pensions. The second is his sale of Britain's gold reserves. - ] (]) 07:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC) :i have placed it under https://en.wikipedia.org/Premiership_of_Gordon_Brown#Obfuscating_child_sex_abuse ] (]) 22:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
::and here https://en.wikipedia.org/Gordon_Brown#Obfuscating_child_sex_abuse ] (]) 23:01, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
:::changed subheading to https://en.wikipedia.org/Gordon_Brown#Home_Office_obfuscating_child_sex_abuse ] (]) 23:02, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
:I've reverted the addition for the moment the Telegraph sources is an opinion piece, and there doesn't appear to be any evidence to back up Nazir Afzal's allegations. I thought of changing the content to only be that this is something that Afzal alleges happened, but fear it would be a BLP violation. I'll add at notification to ] asking for advice. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 22:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
::As I also stated on BLPN, this appears to be a highly partisan opinion piece, which is not going to be an adequate source for this kind of serious allegation against a living person. – ] (]) 23:10, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
:::There's similar allegations at the bottom of the ] referenced to a deadlink YouTube video of the original interview with Afzal. It's better worded but I can't think any live source to beck this up. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 23:15, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
::::heres a non deadlink https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5GM3fkM_uk ] (]) 01:03, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::apparently it was in reference to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vtFubxB0hQ ] (]) 01:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
::This appears to be something that Afzal was told about but never saw himself, as per his post on X . And as the next post by Afzal makes clear he doesn't believe this even exists. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 23:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
:::thats not what he said, he said "if they exist", as in he isnt certain. ] (]) 01:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
::::Yes he doesn't know whether the circular he alleges exists even exists. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 08:12, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::again i know this is entering conspiracy so obviously do not add it to the wikipedia page but do you not find it odd that a former prosecutor within the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) would go on national radio and make such a bold claim with certainty and then walk it back, why on earth would he even say that if he didnt believe it or see something or handle something. he has an active twitter so if anyone wants to tweet him and ask for clarification on what happened, that would be appreciated ] (]) 14:22, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::As per my reply at BLP I can't only assume he was told and being genuinely upset with the details (as anyone would be) mistakenly believed it on face value, without checking the details. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 14:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::right that seems plausible but has he said who said it to him ] (]) 14:41, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I've seen 'police officers' but I couldn't find anything directly quoting Afzal on the matter. This is definitely into ] territory though. We shouldn't use Misplaced Pages as a place to speculate on such things. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 14:46, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::right fair enough if no one knows where he got the claim. we can keep this talk page open for a few more weeks in case someone more knowledgeable knows. i say we go on afzals page and state he made a claim on bbc radio, provide it in verbatim in a quote block, and later say he suddenly rescinded said claim. thats all we seem to know for certain. again, if anyone wants to tweet at him on twitter go ahead ] (]) 16:08, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
::> Afzal alleges happened, but fear it would be a BLP violation
::this could be added then to Afzal's page and it wouldnt be a BLP violation, right? ] (]) 00:44, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
:::It would be the same where ever you added it, or at least I believe it would. Happy to be corrected by any more knowledgeable editors. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 08:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
::::well yeah i guess? as long as it wasnt written as an allegation i dont see how it's wrong to add in ] (]) 14:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::It doesn't matter how its presented, as the substance of the content is the issue. Without better sourcing, it would still be a BLP violation. – ] (]) 18:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::what? he objectively made a claim https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5GM3fkM_uk
::::::it is not a BLP violation to go to Afzals page and put out, in verbatim, what he said:
::::::“You may not know this, but back in 2008 the Home office sent a circular to all police forces in the country saying ‘as far as these young girls who are being exploited in towns and cities, we believe they have made an informed choice about their sexual behavior and therefore it is not for you police officers to get involved in.’”
::::::it is OBJECTIVELY true he said that, we can clarify he walked what he said back though ] (]) 19:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Nazir_Afzal#nazir_claim_that_brown_home_office_blocked_child_rape_investigations
:::::::i have now opened up a talk page in nazir afzal's wikipedia page. for now, i think it is the most appropriate page to put this and we can keep it out of the gordon brown pages ] (]) 19:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::A primary source YouTube video is not a reliable source for a contentious claim, regardless of which article. At a certain point, you are ]. – ] (]) 19:33, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::the man himself literally said he said it on twitter, do you want me to go interview him myself? he went on a national radio station, said something, oh for crying out loud. i can source it under BBC Radio 4, where he said it ] (]) 23:47, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:14, 12 November 2024

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Harriet Harman succeeded Brown not Miliband

The infobox is wrong to state that Ed Miliband succeeded Brown as Labor Leader.

As it was Harriet Harman instead serving for an interim period pending the election of the new permanent leader which turned out to be Miliband.

Harman's interim leadership should count for something. 49.3.72.79 (talk) 13:14, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done This has now been corrected. -- Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 13:16, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Thank you. 49.3.72.79 (talk) 13:31, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

It still says Ed Milliband at the bottom. 49.3.72.79 (talk) 13:33, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Also  Done. -- Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 13:37, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
@Emir of Misplaced Pages: Actually let's put the breaks on that since consensus has yet to be established. This is, in fact, a common misconception which does not pay credence to article precedents nor internal party rules. This is reflected on Harman's page where it states that her role as Leader of the Opposition was ratified but her role as acting Labour leader was merely a pragmatic move due to her role as deputy. Ditto for Margaret Beckett's article. Alex (talk) 13:58, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with the position of Leader of the Opposition as I just stated elsewhere on this page that Brown did not serve in that position after losing the election.49.3.72.79 (talk) 16:30, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Whether it is called pragmatic in regards to Harman the fact still remains is that Miliband wasn't leader in the immediate period after Brown's resignation, readers might be misled in thinking that Miliband succeeded Brown when the latter's resignation came into effect.49.3.72.79 (talk) 16:35, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
the fact still remains is that Miliband wasn't leader in the immediate period after Brown's resignation Correct but neither was Harman. I know it's quite confusing but my above reasons are why we have this precedent.
readers might be misled in thinking that Miliband succeeded Brown when the latter's resignation came into effect I think a main text clarification is what is needed to address that rather than making the infobox inaccurate. Alex (talk) 19:27, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

First defeated Prime Minister who did not serve as Leader of the Opposition

It should be stated in the article that Brown became the first defeated Prime Minister who did not then serve as Leader of the Opposition. 49.3.72.79 (talk) 13:15, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

We would need a WP:RS to make that claim. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 13:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

If you want reliable sources how about Misplaced Pages itself. I cross referenced this with the Leader of the Opposition (United Kingdom) and the UK election articles to find that all other Prime Ministers who were voted out then served as Leader of the Opposition. Brown however did not serve as Leader of the Opposition after losing the election, a fact of which is presented in this article itself.49.3.72.79 (talk) 16:28, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source, but thank you for trying to help. -- Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 16:36, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Frankly this is no different than being asked to provide evidence to an answer for a simple math problem. It simply isn't needed. I asked that you don't quote me with anymore Misplaced Pages rules because I don't feel you understand what I am getting at by doing that. It seems to me there are one of two reasons why are a defeated Prime Minister would serve as Leader of the Opposition. The first is the belief that a former Prime Minister can reclaim the premiership. The other reason is to fill in the position for a stop-gap period until his party chooses his successor as leader. Whether it is for one of the two reasons I have just outlined, a former Prime Minister as Opposition Leader would use this position to defend against criticism from the current Government on what he did when he was Prime Minister. Brown evidently expressed no interest in reclaiming the premiership and chose not to wait for his party to choose his permanent successor hence not becoming Leader of the Opposition in the meantime. 49.3.72.79 (talk) 13:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Keeping Count

Gordon Brown is the 74th Prime Minister. To those of you saying "nobody keeps count", how can you argue with a government source? This website is based on verifiable evidence, well, there it is. DaleYorks (talk) 16:57, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

DaleYorks, that source only says here are 76, it doesn't say there are only 76 or give each an index number. It certainly doesn't support changing the office names of individual prime ministers by adding numbers to them. And WP:BRD says wait for a consensus if challenged. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate the response. It's a bit of common sense to know when someone was first (and so forth). DaleYorks (talk) 17:12, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of whether he is 74th or 76th, the fact is that, in the United Kingdom, we do not "count" our prime ministers in the way that Americans count their presidents. To say that someone is the 76th or whatever prime minister looks a bit weird, and is not what most readers would expect. So my vote is to delete the count.
Mike Marchmont (talk) 17:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Delete Per UK style. Alex (talk) 11:59, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. https://www.gov.uk/government/history/past-prime-ministers

AS

Why no mention? 86.147.59.195 (talk) 04:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

"First Secretary"

Why is "First Secretary"/ Mandelson in the summary box for Brown's term as Prime Minister? 146.199.63.69 (talk) 09:00, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

As a guess i'd say it's probably because the First Secretary is basically the PM's deputy. We have Deputy PMs listed in other PMs' info boxes too so I personally don't see any problems with Mandelson's inclusion as FS here either. ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 22:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

gordon brown home office blocked investigations into sexual exploitation

Nazir Afzal, when he was chief crown prosecutor for North West England, told the BBC that, in 2008, the Home Office under Gordon Brown’s administration sent a circular email to all police forces calling on them not to investigate the sexual exploitation of young girls.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2023/04/05/grooming-gangs-scandal-labour-yvette-cooper-keir-starmer/ NotQualified (talk) 22:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

i am not sure what article to put this under to be quite frank NotQualified (talk) 22:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
i have placed it under https://en.wikipedia.org/Premiership_of_Gordon_Brown#Obfuscating_child_sex_abuse NotQualified (talk) 22:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
and here https://en.wikipedia.org/Gordon_Brown#Obfuscating_child_sex_abuse NotQualified (talk) 23:01, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
changed subheading to https://en.wikipedia.org/Gordon_Brown#Home_Office_obfuscating_child_sex_abuse NotQualified (talk) 23:02, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
I've reverted the addition for the moment the Telegraph sources is an opinion piece, and there doesn't appear to be any evidence to back up Nazir Afzal's allegations. I thought of changing the content to only be that this is something that Afzal alleges happened, but fear it would be a BLP violation. I'll add at notification to WP:BLPN asking for advice. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
As I also stated on BLPN, this appears to be a highly partisan opinion piece, which is not going to be an adequate source for this kind of serious allegation against a living person. – notwally (talk) 23:10, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
There's similar allegations at the bottom of the Jacqui Smith#Home Secretary referenced to a deadlink YouTube video of the original interview with Afzal. It's better worded but I can't think any live source to beck this up. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:15, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
heres a non deadlink https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5GM3fkM_uk NotQualified (talk) 01:03, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
apparently it was in reference to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vtFubxB0hQ NotQualified (talk) 01:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
This appears to be something that Afzal was told about but never saw himself, as per his post on X . And as the next post by Afzal makes clear he doesn't believe this even exists. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
thats not what he said, he said "if they exist", as in he isnt certain. NotQualified (talk) 01:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
Yes he doesn't know whether the circular he alleges exists even exists. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 08:12, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
again i know this is entering conspiracy so obviously do not add it to the wikipedia page but do you not find it odd that a former prosecutor within the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) would go on national radio and make such a bold claim with certainty and then walk it back, why on earth would he even say that if he didnt believe it or see something or handle something. he has an active twitter so if anyone wants to tweet him and ask for clarification on what happened, that would be appreciated NotQualified (talk) 14:22, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
As per my reply at BLP I can't only assume he was told and being genuinely upset with the details (as anyone would be) mistakenly believed it on face value, without checking the details. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
right that seems plausible but has he said who said it to him NotQualified (talk) 14:41, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
I've seen 'police officers' but I couldn't find anything directly quoting Afzal on the matter. This is definitely into WP:NOTFORUM territory though. We shouldn't use Misplaced Pages as a place to speculate on such things. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:46, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
right fair enough if no one knows where he got the claim. we can keep this talk page open for a few more weeks in case someone more knowledgeable knows. i say we go on afzals page and state he made a claim on bbc radio, provide it in verbatim in a quote block, and later say he suddenly rescinded said claim. thats all we seem to know for certain. again, if anyone wants to tweet at him on twitter go ahead NotQualified (talk) 16:08, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
> Afzal alleges happened, but fear it would be a BLP violation
this could be added then to Afzal's page and it wouldnt be a BLP violation, right? NotQualified (talk) 00:44, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
It would be the same where ever you added it, or at least I believe it would. Happy to be corrected by any more knowledgeable editors. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 08:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
well yeah i guess? as long as it wasnt written as an allegation i dont see how it's wrong to add in NotQualified (talk) 14:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
It doesn't matter how its presented, as the substance of the content is the issue. Without better sourcing, it would still be a BLP violation. – notwally (talk) 18:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
what? he objectively made a claim https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5GM3fkM_uk
it is not a BLP violation to go to Afzals page and put out, in verbatim, what he said:
“You may not know this, but back in 2008 the Home office sent a circular to all police forces in the country saying ‘as far as these young girls who are being exploited in towns and cities, we believe they have made an informed choice about their sexual behavior and therefore it is not for you police officers to get involved in.’”
it is OBJECTIVELY true he said that, we can clarify he walked what he said back though NotQualified (talk) 19:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Nazir_Afzal#nazir_claim_that_brown_home_office_blocked_child_rape_investigations
i have now opened up a talk page in nazir afzal's wikipedia page. for now, i think it is the most appropriate page to put this and we can keep it out of the gordon brown pages NotQualified (talk) 19:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
A primary source YouTube video is not a reliable source for a contentious claim, regardless of which article. At a certain point, you are WP:BLUDGEONING. – notwally (talk) 19:33, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
the man himself literally said he said it on twitter, do you want me to go interview him myself? he went on a national radio station, said something, oh for crying out loud. i can source it under BBC Radio 4, where he said it NotQualified (talk) 23:47, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
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