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{{Refideas
| state=collapsed
| {{cite journal |last1=Adler |first1=Jonathan M. |title=Two Modes of Thought: The Narrative/Paradigmatic Disconnect in the Bailey Book Controversy |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=422–425 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9318-0 |pmid=18431639}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Bancroft |first1=John |title=Lust or Identity? |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=426–428 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9317-1 |pmid=18431640}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Barres |first1=Ben A. |title=A Response to Dreger’s Defense of the Bailey Book |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=429–429 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9320-6 |pmid=18446433}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Bettcher |first1=Talia Mae |title=Pretenders to the Throne |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=430–433 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9326-0 |pmid=18431632}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Blanchard |first1=Ray |title=Deconstructing the Feminine Essence Narrative |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=434–438 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9328-y |pmid=18431630}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Caretto |first1=Antonia |title=Dreger’s Adventures |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=439–440 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9333-1 |pmid=18431625}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Clarkson |first1=Nicholas L. |title=Trans Victims, Trans Zealots: A Critique of Dreger’s History of the Bailey Controversy |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=441–443 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9327-z |pmid=18431631}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Gagnon |first1=John H. |title=Is This a Work of Science? |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=444–447 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9321-5 |pmid=18431637}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Gladue |first1=Brian A. |title=Gender Identity Politics, Human Subjects Issues, and the 'Law of Unintended Consequences' |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=448–450 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9322-4 |pmid=18431636}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Green |first1=Richard |title=Lighten Up, Ladies |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=451–452 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9323-3 |pmid=18431635}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Lane |first1=Riki |title=Truth, Lies, and Trans Science |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=453–456 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9336-y |pmid=18431622}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Lawrence |first1=Anne A. |title=Shame and Narcissistic Rage in Autogynephilic Transsexualism |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=457–461 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9325-1 |pmid=18431633}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Mathy |first1=Robin M. |title=Cowboys, Sheepherders, and The Man Who Would Be Queen: 'I Know' vs. First-Order Lived Experience |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=462–465 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9335-z |pmid=18431623}}\
| {{cite journal |last1=McCloskey |first1=Deirdre |title=Politics in Scholarly Drag: Dreger’s Assault on the Critics of Bailey |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=466–468 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9337-x |pmid=18431621}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Meana |first1=Marta |title=The Drama of Sex, Identity, and the 'Queen' |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=469–471 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9324-2 |pmid=18431634}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Nichols |first1=Margaret |title=Dreger on the Bailey Controversy: Lost in the Drama, Missing the Big Picture |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=476–480 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9329-x |pmid=18431629}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Rind |first1=Bruce |title=The Bailey Affair: Political Correctness and Attacks on Sex Research |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=481–484 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9334-0 |pmid=18431624}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Roberts |first1=Seth |title=McCloskey and Me: A Back-and-Forth |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=485–488 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9344-y |pmid=18431619}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Rosenmann |first1=Amir |last2=Safir |first2=Marilyn P. |title=Sex, Sexuality, and Gender Dichotomized: Transgender Homosexuality in Israel |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=489–490 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9330-4 |pmid=18431628}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Serano |first1=Julia |title=A Matter of Perspective: A Transsexual Woman-Centric Critique of Dreger’s 'Scholarly History' of the Bailey Controversy |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=491–494 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9332-2 |pmid=18431626}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Windsor |first1=Elroi J. |title=Accounting for Power and Academic Responsibility |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=495–497 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9319-z |pmid=18431638}}
| {{cite journal |last1=Wyndzen |first1=Madeline H. |title=A Social Psychology of a History of a Snippet in the Psychology of Transgenderism |journal=Archives of Sexual Behavior |date=2008 |volume=37 |issue=3 |pages=498–502 |doi=10.1007/s10508-008-9340-2 |pmid=18431620}}
}}
__TOC__


== Autogynephilia in Women. ==
==results of automated peer review==


Has anyone read Charles Moser's paper claiming that autogynephilia occurs in women? "To test the possibility that natal women also experience autogynephilia, an Autogynephilia Scale for Women (ASW) was created from items used to categorize MTFs as autogynephilic in other studies. A questionnaire that included the ASW was distributed to a sample of 51 professional women employed at an urban hospital; 29 completed questionnaires were returned for analysis. By the common definition of ever having erotic arousal to the thought or image of oneself as a woman, 93% of the respondents would be classified as autogynephilic. "
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic ], and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*The lead of this article may be too long, or may contain too many paragraphs. Please follow guidelines at ]; be aware that the lead should adequately summarize the article.<sup>]]</sup>
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*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of ]. See also ].<sup>]]</sup>
You may wish to browse through ] for further ideas. Thanks, ] 15:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19591032
--] 15:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


If this is true does this not completely discredit Blanchard and Bailey? ] (]) 23:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
== Controversy Edit (Dec 2007) ==


:The unregistered user has also asked the same question at ]. Perhaps one location is sufficient. ] (]) 00:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I got more specific about the alleged ethical breaches. I've spent years reading articles on both sides of the controversy, and the major issue that both sides seem to have is that Bailey seems to have ] his research subjects. Almost all of the research subjects are Latina, the amount of which is not reflected by the general population of transgendered people. The races of transgendered people seem to be distributed in the same percentage as the general population. In addition, they all seem to have frequented the same bars. Frankly, going to drag bars and picking women out of the crowd doesn't exactly strike me as ethical research behavior.


Perhaps not. It concerns both articles and perhaps many more, but different aspects. Since you watch both so very closely you can oversee, making sure there is no duplication of discussion. Perhaps cross posting by link relevant to this books article. ] (]) 19:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
That, coupled with the fact that some of his research subjects didn't know they were participating in research leads me personally to suspect that a portion of his findings stem from nightclub conversations. I prefer to stick to the facts and leave POV out of it, so I only edited the content minimally.


::The question was valid , if it is peer reviewed should it not be included in the controversy section on the book. The entire premise of this theory was that having erotic arousal to the thought or image of oneself as a woman was unique only to these MTF's. No study was ever done on women, men or FTM's to this point. 93% of the regular women being tested coming out autogynephilic is an amazing blow against the entire theory and needs to be included. This information is from 2011, why is it not included?] (]) 21:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
There's a statement (which was already there) about how on the date of a purported sexual encounter with a research subject, the "only objective evidence" places Bailey at home with his family. I'm unable to find any evidence of this anywhere, but I have left it in hoping that someone else may have some insight. I have been unable to find anything that puts a specific date on this alleged encounter, nor any evidence supporting or refuting it (other than Bailey's own statements). I don't feel that it's a particularly good passage, but I left it in until I can find sufficient amounts of reference on this.
] (]) 14:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


::: I think the point stands as a counter point to the books conclusions. A new section should be created citing Moser's published article demonstrating the alleged" affliction occurs in women. Are there any disagreements with this ? ] (]) 11:37, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
:I think we disagree here about the meaning of research. Would you expect a different approach from a newspaper reporter? That is, if (name your favorite journalist) met a handful of people, said "I'm writing a book about transsexuals, and I'd like to get your views," and they answered question after question after question on the subject, would you claim that then publishing a book which (in part) presents the information from these interviews was horribly unethical?
:What if it was a blogger instead of a printed newspaper? Or just an author who writes nonfiction books instead of someone with an official press pass?
:The issue is that Bailey's critics have decided to ''simultaneously'' assert two things:
#It's not scientific research (so it should be ignored), and
#It's definitely scientific research -- and it's utterly unethical for university professors, who have a very l-o-n-g tradition of publishing books, to use the same information-gathering techniques that we'd accept from any other author.


== The Man Who Would be Queen ==
:Bailey himself has said that this book is not itself scientific research, and the federal regulator that is charged with protecting US research subjects says that interviewing people -- like every journalist does -- isn't research. He may have hoped to illustrate some of the concepts that Blanchard's research indicated, at a level that the average person could grasp, but basic journalism is ''not'' research.
The piece clearly violates the policy of a neutral point of view. It is strongly slanted in favor of Bailey and against his critics. The slant is obvious, which may make it less dangerous in encouraging the enemies of queers. But some readers are naive, and need the policy of neutrality to be enforced.
:BTW, if memory serves, the source for the 'only objective evidence' is the New York Times article. The NYT was provided with copies of the evidence (mostly e-mail messages) and confirmed it with his ex-wife. If you haven't read that article, I recommend it. ] (]) 19:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


Deirdre McCloskey <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:53, 5 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
I don't think we disagree about the meaning of research per se, but I feel that when someone is referencing people as "research subjects" they shouldn't be offended that people treat the material as if it were intended to be research. It's also worth noting that he did treat his work as research before the bulk of this backlash started. I've seen his now-infamous lecture at Stanford where he makes fun of transgendered people as well as gays and lesbians (this was right after the book was published). He even makes fun of children in the process, which I find to be incredibly mean-spirited and uncalled for.<ref>http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2003/4/25/psychologyLectureLacksSensitivityToSexualOrientation</ref> As a psychology student, his work disturbs me greatly and on so many levels.


:Folks interested in the above comment would likely want to know of Dr. McCloskey's long-standing campaign against the book and filing of charges against its author.
I would not rate his work on the level of most journalists. Based on his cavalier attitude and unprofessional lectures, I'm surprised that he even managed to secure a professorship at all.
:Excerpted from http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/12/when-liberals-attack-social-science.html:
::"Before the full weight of the controversy descended, ''The Man Who Would Be Queen'' had been nominated for the Lambda Literary Award’s 2004 prize in the transgender/genderqueer category for its textured, supportive portrayal of its transgender subjects. As a result of immense pressure — Deirdre McCloskey, a respected scholar of economics and history who wrote a memoir about her male-to-female transition, and who helped Conway and James go after Bailey, said nominating the book for the award “would be like nominating ''Mein Kampf'' for a literary prize in Jewish studies” — the organization voted to yank the nomination."
::"To get a flavor of the quality of the evidence amassed against Bailey by his critics, consider one charge: that Bailey had practiced psychology without a license. Conway, James, and McCloskey filed a formal complaint with the state of Illinois claiming that, since Bailey lacked a license as a clinical psychologist, he had violated state regulations by writing those letters in support of the young trans women seeking to transition. Not only was there no legal basis to the claim — if you don’t receive compensation for your services, which Bailey didn’t, you don’t even need a license to provide counseling in Illinois — but Bailey was completely forthright in his letters supporting the women, both about the fact that he had only had brief conversations with them (as opposed to having provided them with extensive counseling) and about his own qualifications and expertise — he even attached copies of his CV. “Presumably all this was why never bothered to pursue the charge,” writes Dreger, “although you’d never know that from reading the press accounts, which mentioned only the complaints, not that they had petered out.”"
:] (]) 16:05, 5 July 2017 (UTC)


Readers please note that James Cantor is a completely bias source , a cohort of Dr Bailey and an advocate pushing Baileys ridiculous theories. This article is now completely compromised and worthless. Dr Bailey might as well have written it himself] (]) 00:19, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
In a nutshell:
#I don't think his work meets the standards of the research community as a whole (and as such it's not ''really'' research)
#I think that because it was ''intended'' to be taken as research, it's ethics should automatically be inspected
#I don't think it should be ignored
#I would expect any book that accuses a large group of people of being ] would have a bit more "research" and a bit less "anecdote."


I also want to add that Bailey's book is not considered as a "textured, supportive portrayal of its transgender subjects" by transgender people. For example, deconstruction's of the book's science and ideas have been put out and - both of whom are trans, and could be considered as valid representatives of the community view ] (]) 20:03, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Sadly, most newspaper reporters would have gone with the same angle as the book -- transsexuality as a "freak thing" sell more papers than transsexuality as a "brain thing" or "psychological thing." Bailey treats sex as a ] for transsexuals, as if they are all motivated by sex and that their transitions are related to their sexuality. In practice, this theory doesn't hold up. Anyone who has worked with transsexuals for a decent amount of time can see that they aren't motivated by sex, but by some sort of psychological and/or biological mechanism.


== Deletion of SPLC report about J. Michael Baily and The Man Who Would Be Queen ==
I think it's interesting that you mentioned blogs. A major psychiatrist from kaiser permanente recently stated that in his experience, all black women are promiscuous and have lots of children. This was stated on someone's blog. Just because he didn't say "this is based on years of research" doesn't make it less inflammatory or less incorrect. The big difference between his statement and Bailey's is that J. Michael Bailey ''did'' originally treat his work not only as research, but as the ultimate research piece on transsexualism.


This has happened a number of times now, and we all know why: association with HBD looks bad to some people. But that is not a good reason to delete well-sourced materials from the Southern Poverty Law Center. The SPLC is one of Misplaced Pages's perennial sources, and reports reliably for hate groups and anti-LGBT activities. The materials are directly relevant to the positive reviews cited in the article, because as the SPLC report notes, many of those reviews were done by members associated with HBD. Trying to constantly remove that link and delete it with silly claims about it being ] when the report is directly addressing the book that this article is about, is an abuse of the editing process. ] (]) 01:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know where that NYT statement came from, it's uncited so I was concerned that it was more opinion than fact. If I find a link to the story, I'll reference it.] (]) 15:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


:I agree that this report should go in the article: Dreger directly mentions it in her article about criticism of the book, so obviously it's relevant to the article and not a ]. Outside that context, I'd have some serious qualms about sourcing BLP material to a single source, even a reliable source, but since the important details have been confirmed by Bailey's side of the controversy that makes me lean much more on the side of including it. ] (]) 02:01, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
<references/>
:I don't necessarily have an issue with the sentence {{tq|In December 2003, the ] (SPLC) reported that many of the early supporters of Bailey's book, ''The Man Who Would Be Queen'', were members of the ]}} because it seems to me that it's at least kind of relevant. Contrary to {{U|Hist9600}}'s edit summary , I didn't remove that part. Nevertheless, I agree with {{U|Springee}} that the rest of the paragraph, at the very least, is ]. It's irrelevant and takes up circa 1/3 of the section about positive reactions. ] (]) 02:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
::] I can see what you mean about the length of the paragraph before your edit, and unnecessary amount of detail. The shortened version better fits the article. ] (]) 18:25, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
:My concern is largely two parts. The first is much of this section is sourced to the SPLC and we need to be careful how the views of an advocacy group are used. Second, this all appears largely undue. It's a combination of coatrack and simply not sufficiently associated with this article's subject to merit inclusion here. Starting with the SPLC part. The RSP entry notes that we need to be careful when deciding how much weight to give SPLC claims. Are their any 3rd party sources that mention the opinions/views of the SPLC here? If yes they I will retract most of my concerns. If something is going to be purely cited to the SPLC we really need to make sure it's either a generalized attributed claim or very clearly significant to the primary topic. In this case it's not a critique of the book, rather a critique of some people who liked the book based on, presumably, the contents of the book. That seems like a very weak justification for inclusion here. Again, it's not about the book but it does suggest some level of guilt by association. Once that basic link is made, as {{U|Antiok 1pie}} noted the rest of the paragraph diverts from talking about the book and starts talking about HBD. At that point it is a coatrack, especially since it starts listing names etc. I will also note, the section reads like it was meant to be in a different article. For example, why say, "...supporters of Bailey's book, The Man Who Would Be Queen, were..." Isn't the subject of this article ''The Man Who Would Be Queen''? Why mention it as if we were talking about several books and several authors? Citation #25 is an AOL link. The rest of this seems like way to much to leave to just the views of the SPLC. While two books are referenced, they seem to only be there to say what HBD is. The links between the Baily and HBD are sourced to SPLC and an AOL link. Given the claims that HBD is, "pseudoscientific race theories and neo-eugenics under the euphemism "human biodiversity"" this becomes a BLP issue and thus needs stronger sourcing. I don't think it's due but a revised version of the first sentence ''might'' be OK or will be if a third party source can be found. The rest is a HBD coatrack and should be included. ] (]) 03:23, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
::The AOL citation is a primary source supporting the SPLC citation. It's not needed. The rest of your objection is basically saying we can't provide context for the book. If you think it's being given undue weight, there are other options than deleting the whole 'graph. The SPLC is a perennial source, you don't really have a leg to stand on as far as deleting all references to it. ] (]) 15:33, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
:::I don't agree but the reduced paragraph is probably an acceptable compromise ] (]) 19:06, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
::{{quote|For example, why say, "...supporters of Bailey's book, The Man Who Would Be Queen, were..."}}
::That's part of the point. According to the SPLC, many of the prominent positive reviews for the book were authored by people who were involved in the same HBD group as J. Michael Bailey. They were effectively helping to promote his book. The Misplaced Pages article uncritically quotes some of those positive reviewers. Giving some context is appropriate to point out their affiliation. The roster of HBDG members helps provide some details about that context, for interested readers. But it is not strictly necessary, since the statements are otherwise still well-sourced. ] (]) 16:21, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
:@] @] I restored to the version that's just one sentence about the SPLC. As it is now, I think it should be reworded and maybe given another sentence to explain what the HBI is, and why this is relevant. As it is now, readers can gain the context from clicking on the blue link to the HBI article. That can be improved, we just don't want too much overlap between this article and the HBI one.
:I also removed the weird long block quotes. ] (]) 19:14, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
::Block quotes from the book might be a good laugh tho. I won't object to that. The quotes pulled in the Seed magazine article are incredible stuff. /s ] (]) 19:29, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks for your help and attention in cleaning up the article, including some of the other parts. ] (]) 22:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
::No objections. Good job on cleaning up the massive blockquotes too. ] (]) 01:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)


== Emphasis on Alice Dreger ==


There are two citations used a total of 11 times. One of the citations is to the "Archives of Sexual Behavior," which looks pretty plainly like a junk journal to me (editorial board full of people promoting a fringe theory). I don't think there will be consensus for removing the reference entirely. Still, I think this article is clearly relying too heavily on Dreger's defense of the work. Mentions should be trimmed, and better sources should be used where possible. ] (]) 20:15, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
:You'll probably find the article cited in one of the other related articles, like ] or the Blanchard, Bailey, Lawrence theory. Some anon editor is making a billion edits to the one (that I know of) this week. I figure there's no point in cleaning up the mess until the dust settles. ] (]) 17:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
:'']'' isn't junk, it actually has a quite good impact factor. Regarding the citation itself, most of the sentences where Dreger is cited seem to be uncontroversial and on the "Negative reactions" section. If you insist though, I guess we could cite her ''sources'' instead. ] (]) 01:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

:Agreed that Alice Dreger should not be used too much, to follow ]. In some cases it depends on what type of statement is being made. If the statements are uncontroversial statements of fact, that is one thing. But if we are heavily relying on Dreger to frame the narrative, that would represent undue weight. ] (]) 04:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
==Controvery edits (Feb 2008) ==

The controversy sections in this cluster of articles seems to grow endlessly. Everyone wants to add just one more detail. Could we consider splitting them into two sections? There are actually two parts to the controversy:
* the criticism of the basic ''ideas'', to be labeled "Criticism" and to include all of the "how dare you define the sexual orientation of transwomen according to their biological sex" and "Blanchard didn't statistically control for this factor" kinds of complaints (about any part of the book), and
* the scandal surrounding various ''allegations and bad behavior'' shortly after publication, to be labeled "Bailey Scandal" and to include nasty websites, allegations that he had sex with a transgendered prostitute, e-mail messages from his ex-wife, NWU's spineless decision to hide behind "employee confidentiality," and so forth.
What do you think? ] (]) 19:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

== Recent POV edits by DarlieB ==

The edits made to this page over the last two days or so by one editor have dramatically reduced the quality of the article and seriously unbalanced its coverage, which already included significant descriptions of the critical response to Bailey's work. So far no (zero) reliable source references have been introduced to support any of the edits that have converted this article from a neutrally worded piece on this work and its controversy into a unalloyed slam article. I would far rather have a stub, or no article at all, than such a poorly balanced and unreferenced article. ]] 22:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

:Comments by Darlie B.

:I'd like to think Avruch is not a bigot or Dr Bailey or his associates under another name. The article in question was as one sided a bigoted as I have seen on Wiki. Defiant in the face of "Do no harm " Avruch seems bent on a POV of his own with it's wild accusations and misquotes on data and comments. For example, you have one person named Alice Dreger supporting Dr Bailey and not even for the books outragous statements but for "academic freedom". The right to publish books like Baileys book . The Witches Hammer of books on gender. In the begining there was a quote that the "New Times found evidence of a "conspiracy against Dr Bailey " when in truth it was a quote in the Times of Alice Dregers . The same person quoted through the entire wiki article trying to prove some conspiracy . The Times never at any point investigated the allegations . Why was that lie in there ? Bailey was forced to resign and the findings sealed yet the article makes claims of his "vindication" ? What part of "neutral " was that under ? I could go on and on about Avruch's obvious bias but apparently for whatever reason he is driven to push his POV.

:I have been told that the edits I made were fair an neutral by others, giving balance to what essentially is innuendo and slander (. but Avruch seems to have an agenda that goes beyond balance. By now he has snuck back in and undone it all so I have no doubt this is just another bigoted hit piece reigned over by a fanatic with endless energy . Perhaps both of us should be blocked and someone from wiki with less "agenda" could re-edit it. Darlie B

:On reread I am afraid much of the article is still bias. The using terms like "question his personal integrity" when that are actually questioning Baileys "professional integrity". His personal life is not under discussion, his academic life is.

:<small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 22:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:--] 6:45 , 13 July 2007 (UTC)

== Neutrality tag ==

I've tagged this article with a neutrality tag to reflect my view that this article represents a fairly clear anti-Bailey point of view. I've said in the past and will repeat that I don't have a particular agenda regarding this article other than a neutral treatment of the subject (the book) and its author. This version of the article (contrasting the version from a few weeks ago) is far more critical of Bailey and represents his defence and defenders in a much less rigorous manner, a bias that I believe ought to be corrected. Its hard, though, when editors of the article decline to discuss their edits on the talkpage and make significant edits at a rapid pace. ]] 19:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== Titles ==

At this point, it seems reasonable to clean up the professional titles for this piece.

In the ==Summary== section, we have these four that need identification:
* Kenneth Zucker
* Simon LeVay
* Dean Hamer
* Ray Blanchard

In the ==Controversy== section, we have these four that need attention:
* Clinician Walter Bockting (add academic degree: PhD, MD, PsyD, something else?)
* Anne Lawrence
* writer and consumer activist Andrea James (are these titles at all relevant ?)
* Dr. Alice Dreger (should have academic degree, not "Dr.", and title should be here , not in next section)

Generally, I think everyone with a doctoral-level degree in a relevant field should have that mentioned, and everyone should have a reasonable (and short) title (so "sexologist" or "psychologist" instead of "The John R. Smith and Mary L. Jones Professor of Gender Identity, Sexology and Whatever Else We Thought Of").

Would anyone like to look these up? I don't, BTW, think that we need to source these in the article, but if you want to put a link after the names here in the permanent record on the talk page, then it might prevent future problems. ] (]) 17:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

== Wording ==

The article reads, 'Many of Bailey's critics attack not only his book, but his personal integrity.' I think this could be better worded (I'll leave aside the question of whether it should be in the article at all). Generally, one 'questions' someone's personal integrity, not 'attacks' it. ] (]) 08:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Another quibble. The article also reads, in part, 'The second section deals primarily with homosexual men...He also discusses the behavior of gay men and its typically masculine and feminine qualities.' I don't think it makes sense for the article to use both the expressions 'homosexual men' and 'gay men'. One or the other should be used, but not both. ] (]) 08:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Third quibble. The article reads, 'One of these pages - now removed - published pictures of Bailey's young children labeled with obscenities and vicious personal attacks.' Setting aside the accuracy of this description of the website in question, I doubt that the word 'vicious' should be there. Calling something 'personal attacks' is such strong language that adding the 'vicious' qualifier to it hardly seems necessary. Calling something 'vicious' looks more like making a moral judgment than stating a fact. One can make whatever moral judgments one likes, but surely it's unwise to present them in articles? It smacks of self-satisfaction. ] (]) 08:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Fourth quibble. The article reads, 'The text above the pictures reads " Let's replace women in my community with a couple of random photos and see if Baileys words and theories seem as academic ."' Surely past tense should be used here? ] (]) 08:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Fifth quibble. A section of the article is titled, 'Concerns about academic and intellectual freedom.' This could probably be changed to something shorter and more concise; it sounds grandiloquent. ] (]) 09:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:I agree that those things need work, and leave it to you. MarionTheLibrarian and I have an agreeement to not touch it. ] (]) 14:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:That is correct.<br/>
—] (]) 15:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:I will change most of these things shortly; in my view, even referring to 'personal attacks' here is unnecessary and gratuitous. Obviously labelling pictures of someone with obscenities is a personal attack; there is no need to spell out the obvious. ] (]) 22:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:I've now done what I said I'd do, and I will consider whether further changes should be made. Anything I do to this article will be minor touching up of the kind I've already done. ] (]) 23:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:One of the additional changes I have made is removing the reference to 'obscenities.' As I wrote in the edit message, implying that someone is a prostitute may be offensive, but strictly speaking it is not an obscenity. The way I reworded this may not be perfect; if someone wants to reword it again, that's fine, so long as the inaccurate 'obscenities' does not go back in. I have also cut down on the number of times the word 'controversial' is used; it doesn't have to be used every other sentence; people get the idea. ] (]) 01:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

== Another point ==

The article reads, 'As part of this controversy, a male-to-female transsexual person who was interviewed for his book accused Bailey of having sex with her while she was his research subject.' This seems like a rather odd way of putting things. Presumably, if the person who made this accusation had sex with Bailey (I express no opinion either way), the sex was consensual, with both partners equally responsible. So why 'accused Bailey of having sex with her'? Why not 'said she had sex with Bailey'? ] (]) 02:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:The cited source says "A transsexual woman who is described in a book by J. Michael Bailey, chairman of the psychology department at Northwestern University, says he had sex with her while she was an unwitting subject of his research. The woman also says that Mr. Bailey, as a psychologist, supplied her with a letter she needed from a professional..." I think the asymmetry comes from the idea either that he was in a position of power over her, since she needed the SRS letter from him, or that he knew she was a research subject and she didn't. She's not saying it wasn't consentual, but that it was inappropriate. Feel free to reword it to make it more consistent with sources if you feel that's needed. You seem to be doing a good neutral job so far. is the whole cited article, as reposted by Lynn Conway. is another source about it. And of it, and in case anything there is useful. ] (]) 04:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:I changed this part. 'Accused Bailey of having sex with her' was another example of over-excited language. As for the article from the Chronicle of Higher Education, if Conway reposted it, why shouldn't the article link to her repost rather than the original source? ] (]) 01:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::I think it would be better to stick closer to the cited source (in full ). It's not encyclopedic to add "As part of this controversy;" just say what happened (I know, this has been around a while; not saying it's from you). And "who was interviewed for his book" misses the point of the article that she was "described in" the book. And the passive "This became the subject of a sexual misconduct complaint" is not nearly as useful as saying WHO filed the complaint (namely, the anonymous woman, according to the article). Finally, the source says "Mr. Bailey has declined to comment on the accusations," not that he has denied the accusations; if he denied them, you should cite a source that says so. I agree that you don't need the word "accuse"; it was only in the headline, which is not properly part of the story since headlines are typically written by editors trying to hype the stories. The bit about quoting Dreger that "the sexual misconduct allegation came 5 years after the fact" misses the point of the article that in the intervening interval the book got published, and she said, ""I would not have participated in the lecture or had anything to do with Dr. Bailey if I was aware of his hypocritical deception in obtaining any and all information about that turned into research for his most maligning book." It might be better to be more balanced on that point, or just leave it out. ] (]) 02:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::'As part of this controversy' can be removed. I am not going to rush to remove "who was interviewed for his book", or other parts of this article. Input from other editors would be welcome here. My choice of wording was intended to distinguish between two related but distinct facts: the fact that someone claimed to have had sexual relations with a particular person, and the fact that there was a sexual misconduct complaint. 'Accused Bailey of having sex with her' is the language of sensationalism. ] (]) 04:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::We already agreed on the 'accused' wording. I don't understand why you separate the claim from the complaint that the claim was made in; the cited source doesn't do that. I'm not worried that you're promoting any POV here, just noting that in general it's best to stick close to sources. ] (]) 04:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::The cited source is OK for the first two sentences, but "She has refused to offer details or discuss the accusation, which Bailey has denied" needs a citation. ] (]) 04:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I'm sure it needs a citation. I will look for one. ] (]) 04:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Bailey has denied absolutely everything on his website, of course. ] (]) 08:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

== Titles ==

There's a hidden comment in ==Controversy==: ''Why are the critics described with professional titles but the supporters are given no identification other than their name?'' Do we have a standard set of titles for the untitled people in this section? ] (]) 20:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:You're describing a favored tactic on this issue. The criticisms of the book are merely ideological. So, it's long been in the interest of the critics to exaggerate their basis for having an educated opinion and to minimize the qualifications of supporters. If you read Andrea James' or Lynn Conway's websites on the issue, you'll find that rarely is someone simply "a researcher." They are typically "a discredited researcher" or "a recognized expert" according to whether they agree with James/Conway.<br/>
:—] (]) 20:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::We have no control of tactics used by people on their own publications. In wikipedia, it's generally useful to have a brief description of the named person if the person is not universally known. Of course you're both right that even here a favored tactic of editors is to boost their POV by providing titles or descriptions that sound good on their side and bad on the others. Let's just try to keep them balanced. Not like calling Dreger a "historian" just because she has a degree in history and wrote what she called a history, when her self-description doesn't include historian, which is the tactic that MarionTheLibrarian was pushing in the Lynn Conway article. And of course opinions like "merely ideological" are "pure POV" and should have no effect on the article editing. ] (]) 21:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a lovely analysis, guys, but you'll note that neither of you answered my question. ] (]) 02:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:I think we answered the first question, and the answer to the second is implicitly "no". ] (]) 02:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::Ah, you answered someone else's question. (I'm not sure who added the hidden text; it's been there for a while.) So let's start with someone at least slightly easier than Dreger. Can you remind me who Simon Le Vay is? Do I remember correctly that he's a sexologist? ] (]) 02:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I have discovered his Misplaced Pages article. Any objections to calling him a sexologist instead of the more cumbersome "neuroscientist and author known for his studies about brain structures and sexual orientation"? I don't think there are any particular rules for becoming a sexologist -- it's not like getting a medical license. ] (]) 02:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I know nothing about him, but sounds like neuroscientist would be closer to what he is. ] (]) 03:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::LeVay by training is a neuroscientist; calling him a sexologist might be misleading. ] (]) 03:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::Any objections to ''neuroscientist'' then? Is that good enough, or do we need to say something like "neuroscientist and author"? ] (]) 05:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::::Author doesn't add much; anyone you refer to is likely to be an author. ] (]) 05:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::Neuroscientist is certainly the least debatable, but it was his article (and subsequent publications) on sex that made him natable. WhatamIdoing is correct that ''sexologist'' is not a regulated term, and Dicklyon is correct that ''author'' will not add anything. Perhaps something along the lines ''neuroscientist best known for...'' might work.<br/>
::::—] (]) 13:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::Only if you find a source that indicates that that's what he is best known for. No reason to go beyond neuroscientist, really, as there's an article linked for anyone who wants to know more. ] (]) 14:27, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::::{{done}} I've gone with neuroscientist for now. Since the first mention (I hadn't realized he was mentioned twice) is in the context of his research and the second section of the book, I think we can let the reader assume that his LeVay's research area has something to do with sex, at least more or less. Adjustments can be made later if needed. ] (]) 04:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

----
;Next: Dean Hamer
His Misplaced Pages biography calls him a geneticist. Any objections? Anything better? ] (]) 04:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

::In the absence of objections, I've made this change. ] (]) 03:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

----
;Next: Kenneth Zucker
His Misplaced Pages biography calls him a "psychologist and sexologist". Any objections? Anything better? ] (]) 03:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

:No, I've no objection. Go ahead and make the change. ] (]) 22:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
::{{done}} ] (]) 18:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

----
;Next: Ray Blanchard
Sexologist seems like the obvious choice. Any objections? ] (]) 18:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be logical to use "psychologist and sexologist," consistent with Zucker.<br/>
—] (]) 15:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

:His suggests that maybe psychiatrist would be better than psychologist. ] (]) 15:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

:Um...except that he's ''not'' a psychiatrist. (Something on that link suggested otherwise?)<br/>
—] (]) 18:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

==Consideration of Andrea James' 1998 autogynephilia confession==

I want to know what other editors think about the inclusion of material concerning a remarkable 1998 email from Andrea James to Anne Lawrence. The email is here, with commentary from James who tries to show that it doesn't mean what Alice Dreger suggests it means:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/alice-dreger/hermaphrodite-monger.html#appendix1

In this email, James says that she has found many of Ray Blanchard's scientific insights "valid, even brilliant, especially in distinguishing early- and late- transitioning TS patterns of thought and behavior." Recall that Blanchard is the originator of the scientific theory of transsexualism that James has so assiduously decried. Furthermore, she says: "I readily admit my own autogynephilia." When i first read this, I found these to be explosive admissions. After all, James has dedicated a good part of her time and reputation to trying to destroy J. Michael Bailey for promoting this theory in his book. (The title of the relevant part of her website is: "Categorically Wrong.") Bailey's account of the controversy is that it was a smear campaign waged by unprincipled liars. (Lest anyone accuse me of being inflammatory, the accusations that Conway, James and others have made against Bailey are just as bad.) The contrast between James' 1998 email and her later anti-Bailey and Blanchard campaign surely is consistent with this interpretation. Moreover, it is relevant to the contention that autogynephilia is not consistent with many transsexual women's experience. If it is consistent with the experience of the concept's most vociferous critic, that makes the contention less credible.

This material was mentioned in an earlier version of the ] page, but Dicklyon removed it, saying that it was taken out of context. Frankly, I do not find Dicklyon's objection (or Andrea James' objections as related on the above website) at all plausible at negating the obvious facts that she once found Blanchard's theory to be of great interest and she once agreed that she is autogynephilic. Dicklyon has admitted that he has ties with Lynn Conway, but I am sure that he does not want anyone to think that's a primary reason for his edits. Perhaps other editors can weigh in on whether they think there is any other way to read James' 1998 email other than how I read it, and whether they think it is relevant for inclusion in various articles. I think it could be considered for ], ], ], ], and ].] (]) 15:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

:I believe that this conversation has been unified at ] (which happily is not on my watchlist, so I cheerfully consider myself exempt from participation). We don't need to have five different versions of the same conversation going, so discuss the issues there, and then come back here and let us know if you all have come to conclusions that might affect this article.
:You might, BTW, want to read about ], because I'm sure it will come up repeatedly in that discussion. ] (]) 18:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

== DarlieB's latest edits and Skoojal's revert ==

In , DarlieB added a few words about the book being what Andrea James was attacking, with edit summary "(→Controversy: Without context this reads like just a personal attack rather than the statement on the book it was.)" which looked reasonable to me. Then Skoojal in reverted, saying "(undoing edit - please, the article doesn't need this sort of stuff, that's the kind of thing we're trying to get rid of)." I'm unclear on what "this sort of stuff" refers to; Skoojal or someone, can you clarify. Was it the second part of the edit, "( apparently taken from Bailey's book , or in the style of the book )"? Seems like there ought to be a way to make that clear, if the incident is to be mentioned at all. It seems rather unbalanced to cite Bailey's personal blog about the episode, in which he re-published what he considers to be offensive pictures of his children, and not say anything about the other side. ] (]) 05:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The inclusion of the words "the book" appears appropriate (I doubt anyone would contest that Andrea James was attacking ''the book''), but the remainder of the edit was too unclear to my mind to add any context at all. Moreover, there does not exist any reliable source capable of indicating what Andrea James intent was.<br/>
—] (]) 07:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

:First, I'm astonished by Dicklyon's use of the expression 'what he considers to be offensive pictures of his children.' Are you suggesting that those pictures were somehow ''not'' offensive? They were revolting, and offensive in the absolute extreme. Second, some of the text I removed '( apparently taken from Bailey's book , or in the style of the book )' suggests something that isn't true (eg, that Andrea James took some passages from Bailey's book word for word and then applied them to those pictures). The 'apparently' bit suggests that whoever added that isn't really sure, which makes it doubly inappropriate. It looks like opinion or speculation, and is wrong for an article. ] (]) 07:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

::The pictures themselves do not appear to be offensive, and I have not seen what captions were used originally, but yes, I think they were offensive, which is why it's odd to me that Bailey, who presumably also considers them to be offensive, would republish them that way. I agree that this whole thing has a verifiablity problem. The sentence "One of these pages, which has now been removed, published pictures of Bailey's young children and placed offensive sexual messages beneath them" has only Bailey's strange recreation as source, it appears. ] (]) 15:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

:Dicklyon: You have the right to comment on any article, of course, but your lack of familiarity with the events in question is rendering your comments rather non-sequitur. I recognize that you are unlikely to take my word for any of this, but ''have'' watched each of the events as they occurred and I ''did'' read the original quotes. You will find that no one on any side of the debate questions: that Andrea James posted pictures of Bailey's kids, that she included the captions exactly as Dreger quoted them, that James' website contained these for several days before removing them, and that James issued an apology/explanation of her behavior. What remains debated (and likely always will) is what James' intent was both in creating the comments, in removing them, and in her apology/explanation.
:You have the right, again, to offer any opinion regarding the latter issue and even to indicate that WP's description of the events should be limited by what is documentable. However, it strains credulity to say that "only Bailey's strange recreation" documents events that both Bailey ''and'' James describe on their respective websites. Many listservs (sex researchers, GLBT psychologists, etc.) discussed it at length at the time.
:Putting a spin on events is one thing, but advocating revisionism is another. As an otherwise educated and intelligent person, you should be ashamed.<br/>
:—] (]) 16:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

::You're right about my lack of familiarity. But this is wikipedia. We should be writing only from reliable secondary and tertiary sources, not from people's memories of things that happened. I'm not sure what you are referring to here by revisionism, or what you think I should be ashamed of. My goal here is to encourage moving some of these controversial articles in the direction of conforming with wikipedia policy. I'm still unclear on what Skoojal objected to in DarlieB's edits. ] (]) 21:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

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Reference ideas for The Man Who Would Be QueenThe following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Autogynephilia in Women.

Has anyone read Charles Moser's paper claiming that autogynephilia occurs in women? "To test the possibility that natal women also experience autogynephilia, an Autogynephilia Scale for Women (ASW) was created from items used to categorize MTFs as autogynephilic in other studies. A questionnaire that included the ASW was distributed to a sample of 51 professional women employed at an urban hospital; 29 completed questionnaires were returned for analysis. By the common definition of ever having erotic arousal to the thought or image of oneself as a woman, 93% of the respondents would be classified as autogynephilic. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19591032

If this is true does this not completely discredit Blanchard and Bailey? 75.84.159.117 (talk) 23:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The unregistered user has also asked the same question at Talk:Feminine_essence_concept_of_transsexuality#Autogynephilia_in_Women.. Perhaps one location is sufficient. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps not. It concerns both articles and perhaps many more, but different aspects. Since you watch both so very closely you can oversee, making sure there is no duplication of discussion. Perhaps cross posting by link relevant to this books article. 75.84.159.117 (talk) 19:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The question was valid , if it is peer reviewed should it not be included in the controversy section on the book. The entire premise of this theory was that having erotic arousal to the thought or image of oneself as a woman was unique only to these MTF's. No study was ever done on women, men or FTM's to this point. 93% of the regular women being tested coming out autogynephilic is an amazing blow against the entire theory and needs to be included. This information is from 2011, why is it not included?76.93.64.21 (talk) 21:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I think the point stands as a counter point to the books conclusions. A new section should be created citing Moser's published article demonstrating the alleged" affliction occurs in women. Are there any disagreements with this ? 24.24.142.155 (talk) 11:37, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

The Man Who Would be Queen

The piece clearly violates the policy of a neutral point of view. It is strongly slanted in favor of Bailey and against his critics. The slant is obvious, which may make it less dangerous in encouraging the enemies of queers. But some readers are naive, and need the policy of neutrality to be enforced.

Deirdre McCloskey — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.229.185.221 (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Folks interested in the above comment would likely want to know of Dr. McCloskey's long-standing campaign against the book and filing of charges against its author.
Excerpted from http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/12/when-liberals-attack-social-science.html:
"Before the full weight of the controversy descended, The Man Who Would Be Queen had been nominated for the Lambda Literary Award’s 2004 prize in the transgender/genderqueer category for its textured, supportive portrayal of its transgender subjects. As a result of immense pressure — Deirdre McCloskey, a respected scholar of economics and history who wrote a memoir about her male-to-female transition, and who helped Conway and James go after Bailey, said nominating the book for the award “would be like nominating Mein Kampf for a literary prize in Jewish studies” — the organization voted to yank the nomination."
"To get a flavor of the quality of the evidence amassed against Bailey by his critics, consider one charge: that Bailey had practiced psychology without a license. Conway, James, and McCloskey filed a formal complaint with the state of Illinois claiming that, since Bailey lacked a license as a clinical psychologist, he had violated state regulations by writing those letters in support of the young trans women seeking to transition. Not only was there no legal basis to the claim — if you don’t receive compensation for your services, which Bailey didn’t, you don’t even need a license to provide counseling in Illinois — but Bailey was completely forthright in his letters supporting the women, both about the fact that he had only had brief conversations with them (as opposed to having provided them with extensive counseling) and about his own qualifications and expertise — he even attached copies of his CV. “Presumably all this was why never bothered to pursue the charge,” writes Dreger, “although you’d never know that from reading the press accounts, which mentioned only the complaints, not that they had petered out.”"
— James Cantor (talk) 16:05, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Readers please note that James Cantor is a completely bias source , a cohort of Dr Bailey and an advocate pushing Baileys ridiculous theories. This article is now completely compromised and worthless. Dr Bailey might as well have written it himself172.115.128.79 (talk) 00:19, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I also want to add that Bailey's book is not considered as a "textured, supportive portrayal of its transgender subjects" by transgender people. For example, deconstruction's of the book's science and ideas have been put out by Contrapoints and iconic author Imogen Binnie - both of whom are trans, and could be considered as valid representatives of the community view Ninquelosse (talk) 20:03, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Deletion of SPLC report about J. Michael Baily and The Man Who Would Be Queen

This has happened a number of times now, and we all know why: association with HBD looks bad to some people. But that is not a good reason to delete well-sourced materials from the Southern Poverty Law Center. The SPLC is one of Misplaced Pages's perennial sources, and reports reliably for hate groups and anti-LGBT activities. The materials are directly relevant to the positive reviews cited in the article, because as the SPLC report notes, many of those reviews were done by members associated with HBD. Trying to constantly remove that link and delete it with silly claims about it being WP:COATRACK when the report is directly addressing the book that this article is about, is an abuse of the editing process. Hist9600 (talk) 01:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree that this report should go in the article: Dreger directly mentions it in her article about criticism of the book, so obviously it's relevant to the article and not a WP:COATRACK. Outside that context, I'd have some serious qualms about sourcing BLP material to a single source, even a reliable source, but since the important details have been confirmed by Bailey's side of the controversy that makes me lean much more on the side of including it. Loki (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
I don't necessarily have an issue with the sentence In December 2003, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) reported that many of the early supporters of Bailey's book, The Man Who Would Be Queen, were members of the Human Biodiversity Institute because it seems to me that it's at least kind of relevant. Contrary to Hist9600's edit summary here, I didn't remove that part. Nevertheless, I agree with Springee that the rest of the paragraph, at the very least, is WP:COATRACK. It's irrelevant and takes up circa 1/3 of the section about positive reactions. Antiok 1pie (talk) 02:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
@Antiok 1pie I can see what you mean about the length of the paragraph before your edit, and unnecessary amount of detail. The shortened version better fits the article. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 18:25, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
My concern is largely two parts. The first is much of this section is sourced to the SPLC and we need to be careful how the views of an advocacy group are used. Second, this all appears largely undue. It's a combination of coatrack and simply not sufficiently associated with this article's subject to merit inclusion here. Starting with the SPLC part. The RSP entry notes that we need to be careful when deciding how much weight to give SPLC claims. Are their any 3rd party sources that mention the opinions/views of the SPLC here? If yes they I will retract most of my concerns. If something is going to be purely cited to the SPLC we really need to make sure it's either a generalized attributed claim or very clearly significant to the primary topic. In this case it's not a critique of the book, rather a critique of some people who liked the book based on, presumably, the contents of the book. That seems like a very weak justification for inclusion here. Again, it's not about the book but it does suggest some level of guilt by association. Once that basic link is made, as Antiok 1pie noted the rest of the paragraph diverts from talking about the book and starts talking about HBD. At that point it is a coatrack, especially since it starts listing names etc. I will also note, the section reads like it was meant to be in a different article. For example, why say, "...supporters of Bailey's book, The Man Who Would Be Queen, were..." Isn't the subject of this article The Man Who Would Be Queen? Why mention it as if we were talking about several books and several authors? Citation #25 is an AOL link. The rest of this seems like way to much to leave to just the views of the SPLC. While two books are referenced, they seem to only be there to say what HBD is. The links between the Baily and HBD are sourced to SPLC and an AOL link. Given the claims that HBD is, "pseudoscientific race theories and neo-eugenics under the euphemism "human biodiversity"" this becomes a BLP issue and thus needs stronger sourcing. I don't think it's due but a revised version of the first sentence might be OK or will be if a third party source can be found. The rest is a HBD coatrack and should be included. Springee (talk) 03:23, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
The AOL citation is a primary source supporting the SPLC citation. It's not needed. The rest of your objection is basically saying we can't provide context for the book. If you think it's being given undue weight, there are other options than deleting the whole 'graph. The SPLC is a perennial source, you don't really have a leg to stand on as far as deleting all references to it. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 15:33, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
I don't agree but the reduced paragraph is probably an acceptable compromise Springee (talk) 19:06, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

For example, why say, "...supporters of Bailey's book, The Man Who Would Be Queen, were..."

That's part of the point. According to the SPLC, many of the prominent positive reviews for the book were authored by people who were involved in the same HBD group as J. Michael Bailey. They were effectively helping to promote his book. The Misplaced Pages article uncritically quotes some of those positive reviewers. Giving some context is appropriate to point out their affiliation. The roster of HBDG members helps provide some details about that context, for interested readers. But it is not strictly necessary, since the statements are otherwise still well-sourced. Hist9600 (talk) 16:21, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
@Hist9600 @Antiok 1pie I restored to the version that's just one sentence about the SPLC. As it is now, I think it should be reworded and maybe given another sentence to explain what the HBI is, and why this is relevant. As it is now, readers can gain the context from clicking on the blue link to the HBI article. That can be improved, we just don't want too much overlap between this article and the HBI one.
I also removed the weird long block quotes. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 19:14, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Block quotes from the book might be a good laugh tho. I won't object to that. The quotes pulled in the Seed magazine article are incredible stuff. /s Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 19:29, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for your help and attention in cleaning up the article, including some of the other parts. Hist9600 (talk) 22:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
No objections. Good job on cleaning up the massive blockquotes too. Antiok 1pie (talk) 01:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Emphasis on Alice Dreger

There are two citations used a total of 11 times. One of the citations is to the "Archives of Sexual Behavior," which looks pretty plainly like a junk journal to me (editorial board full of people promoting a fringe theory). I don't think there will be consensus for removing the reference entirely. Still, I think this article is clearly relying too heavily on Dreger's defense of the work. Mentions should be trimmed, and better sources should be used where possible. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 20:15, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Archives of Sexual Behavior isn't junk, it actually has a quite good impact factor. Regarding the citation itself, most of the sentences where Dreger is cited seem to be uncontroversial and on the "Negative reactions" section. If you insist though, I guess we could cite her sources instead. Antiok 1pie (talk) 01:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Agreed that Alice Dreger should not be used too much, to follow WP:DUE. In some cases it depends on what type of statement is being made. If the statements are uncontroversial statements of fact, that is one thing. But if we are heavily relying on Dreger to frame the narrative, that would represent undue weight. Hist9600 (talk) 04:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
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