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Wiki Education assignment: FYSEM-UA 900 Busting 11 myths about the archaeology of human evolution

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): ArjunChikkappa (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Jaelienrivera.

Undiscussed move

This article was moved from colonization to exploration, without any discussion or consensus, by a request initiated by @Treetoes023. From what I recall on this talk page, such a change was previously discussed and did not reach consensus, the article clearly discusses settlements (colonies) and also the concept itself of Norse colonization, so I don't think the name was wrong or that the new name is an improvement. This should have been discussed here first, and I think until consensus is reached the page should be moved back to its prior name. TylerBurden (talk) 02:41, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted the move because of the previous RM. Srnec (talk) 02:54, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

The revert back to this (colonization) was good. That being said, this article is mild about the terrors norsemen surely did. I don't have a source on hand right now, but they probably genocided a many tribes and this article doesn't really represent that. I'm sure someone has a media contact to cook up a article on that so we can get a source and add it to this article! Good work everyone! ProfessionalHiistorian (talk) 01:37, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Some basics reading ....."Norse-Indigenous Contact". The Canadian Encyclopedia. 2024-10-25. Moxy🍁 04:25, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

"Cook up an article" in the media? I'd like to show good faith, but this sounds as though you are trolling. Doug Weller talk 08:45, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

True discoverers of Greenland.

This page doesn’t mention anything about Gunnbjörn Ulfsson who was the first to sight Greenland and Snæbjörn galti Hólmsteinsson who was the first to land on Greenland in 978. Plus on Erik the Red’s biography it says he landed on Greenland in 982 but here it says 986. MaxwellWinnie102 (talk) 23:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Are you referring to Gunnbjörn's skerries? Moxy- 00:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Attempting to remove a false statement.

I've added more modern sources and slightly expanded that section. (Feel free to trim anything out, if I've gone off topic.) Regarding Carl O. Sauer and J. R. L. Anderson, more recent peer-reviewed work within the field of history contradicts their speculations. It's not especially weird for someone highly respected in one field to publish something out of pocket in another (see WP:PULP). Rjj (talk) 02:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Please point to this "recent peer-reviewed work" that contradicts Sauer and Anderson. Anton W. Brogger, G.M.Gathorne-Hardy, Askell Love are other researchers who place Vinland in southern New England. Rockawaypoint (talk) 05:51, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Seems there is no "recent peer reviewed work" that contradicts what Carl Sauer and J.R.L Anderson added to the Vinland debate. Or is there? Can you supply a source? Rockawaypoint (talk) 21:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Please produce this “…more recent peer-reviewed work that contradicts their speculations." Who wrote it, and where can we read it? Will Magnus Magnusson https://en.wikipedia.org/Magnus_Magnusson and his co-author Herman Palsson https://en.wikipedia.org/Hermann_P%C3%A1lsson,"…one of the most distinguished scholars of Icelandic studies of his generation"— continue to be dismissed here as "unreliable" or "out of date"? Their 1965 book "The Vinland Sagas" is still considered to be essential reading in this field. Someone also claimed above that Carl O. Sauer, the highly respected geographer, was "...fringe…" for proposing that Irish Monks may have crossed the Atlantic before the 11th century Icelanders and Greenlanders. Sauer’s proposal was never considered as “fringe” by mainstream historians. It may have been “bold,” but it rested on widely accepted sources such as Dicuil, Ari the Learned, and Landnamabok, that suggested Irish Monks may have reached both Iceland and Greenland before the Norse did. Professional historian Charles E. Nowell (1904–1984) https://read.dukeupress.edu/hahr/article/67/3/497/147772/Charles-E-Nowell-1904-1984 accepted Sauer's proposal. In a book review in Jan. 1973 Geo. Review, Nowell said Sauer’s proposal that L’anse aux Meadows “…could as well have been Irish as Norse," was worthy of recognition. The claim made above that Carl O. Sauer is “fringe,” or an “unreliable source” is ridiculous. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F

Ah, IP, you're misrepresenting what I said by leaving out the meat of the matter concerning the fringeness of Sauer's speculations in his book Northern Mists:

"...then, under pressure from Viking settlers , that they continued on to Greenland and North America, where they settled Hvitramannaland—"Ireland the Great"—in the St. Lawrence River valley in the 10th century. In a further indication of how outdated this book is, Sauer deduces that the L'Anse aux Meadows settlement was Irish rather than Norse, citing the extensive evidence of ironworking at the site and carbon dating." I know of no recently published works by reliable sources that would would support these fantastic theories. Carlstak (talk) 15:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Carlstak, ...review just above, - "...Professional historian Charles E. Nowell (1904–1984) accepted Sauer's proposal. In Jan. 1973 Geo. Review, Nowell said Sauer’s proposal that L’anse aux Meadows “…could as well have been Irish as Norse," was worthy of recognition. Rockawaypoint (talk) 15:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Please stop adding adjectives suggesting argument by authority. - if they are a historian, they are a professional. Doug Weller talk 16:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

IT may have been "worthy of recognition" 52 years ago, but it doesn't hold water now. The archaeological data gathered from the excavations at L'Anse aux Meadows proves conclusively that the settlers were Norse, not Irish. You really should know this. Historiorgraphy and archaeology are not static. Carlstak (talk) 00:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

This "concern" you have that Carl Sauer's suggestion that L'Anse aux Meadows might be an Irish site is a bit odd to say the very least. Again, it comes across as only your opinion there is a problem here. Sauer was not alone in entertaining the idea that the Irish had been there before the Norse. The Irish got to Iceland before the Norse "You really should know this." And when looked at objectively, the evidence found at L'Anse aux Meadow can really only be deemed as evidence of early 'Northern Europeans', and not necessarily exclusively "Norse" Europeans. The archeological and 'other' data found at L'Anse aux Meadow has only directed the search farther to the south. Just about all in-depth 'reviews' of what was found there say it is NOT a site in Vinland. Rockawaypoint (talk) 01:04, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

You like the IP above, are misrepresenting what I said. I originally quoted the bit that included a mention of the Irish preceding the Norse in Iceland, which is commonly accepted today. I didn't say that wasn't true. I'm not arguing in favor of the proposition that Newfoundland is Vinland, I'm arguing that Sauer is not a reliable source for supporting the contention that Newfoundland isn't Vinland, or that it may be New England instead. We can't use statements on the subject he made a half-century ago as if they are representative of the present-day state of knowledge, limited as it may be. Regarding L'Anse aux Meadow, you don't know what you're talking about and you're wasting our time. Carlstak (talk) 02:01, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Why is the debate over Vinland even in this article? Was just about to remove this back and forth debate that is on the wrong page. People are interested in learning more about Vinland they'll go to that article. We'll move this over shortly. Moxy🍁 02:08, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Vinland is mentioned about 28 times in this article. Are you expressing only your own opinion? Rockawaypoint (talk) 03:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

What do you claim it is that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding L'Anse aux Meadows? I went out of my way to visit the place.  ;) It's pretty barren looking up there. The word 'barren' is often used to describe it. I strongly disagree that Sauer is no longer a reliable source about Vinland. Sure, new information come to light. What do you think the 'current' state of knowledge is today?

Check out what people remember about Carl Sauer.

To Pass On a Good Earth: The Life and Work of Carl O. Sauer on JSTOR

7 “The Great God West of the Sierras”

(pp. 101-114)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt6wrkvn.14

Sauer’s prestige but also aloofness had become legendary. In 1937 his old Chicago friend and mentor Wellington Jones urged him to attend the upcoming Association of American Geographers’ annual meeting in Ann Arbor “and show yourself to a whole generation of younger geographers who think you are a semi-mythical personage on the Pacific Coast. I cannot indefinitely convince them that you actually exist.”¹ At that meeting, with Sauer as ever absent, Richard Hartshorne, the distinguished geographer then at the University of Minnesota, referred to the influence of “this great god”.

=================

"...Sauer was for more than half a century a guiding beacon."

"To introduce this substantive life of America’s most eminent geographer, crafted by a scholar of great distinction, is a task alike painful and chastening. Painful because both subject and author are no longer with us,..." Rockawaypoint (talk) 02:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Wow!! how nasty for you to say I'm wasting your time!! What happened to the guidelines above....

• Assume good faith
• Be polite and avoid personal attacks
• Be welcoming to newcomers
• Seek dispute resolution if needed

Rockawaypoint (talk) 02:55, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you need help in finding modern scholars for this? Would you like to give you list on your user page? Do you have an alma mater that you can access sources through?Moxy🍁 03:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Anything you can send.... I'm truly interested. I do hope all will stay on friendly terms here. I'd up on many sources, but always seek out more, old and new. Rockawaypoint (talk) 03:20, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

High interest here in names you can cite as "up-to-date." Rockawaypoint (talk) 03:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

The G. Saga does NOT say Tyker was drunk, and mention of Cape Bauld is not 'neutral'

Major changes needed here. Tyker was NOT drunk, and mention of Cape Bauld this way is improper.

"...All encyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."

from the article- "...Sometime around AD 1000, Leif spent the winter, probably near Cape Bauld on the northern tip of Newfoundland, where one day his foster father Tyrker was found drunk, on what the saga describes as "wine-berries." Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

See Doug Weller talk 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Link is broken. Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Doug Weller talk 18:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Many other sources have rejected northern Newfoundland as Vinland,... Dr. Stuart C. Brown, Erik Wahlgren, J.R.L. Anderson, T.J. Oleson, Hodding Carter, Graeme Davis, Martyn Whittock. Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Stuart C. Brown wrote in "Newfoundland Quarterly" Dec. 1988 "...Dr. lngstad's Procrustean attempt to demonstrate that L'Anse aux Meadows is Leifsbudir is wholly unconvincing..." Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Harvard's Einar Haugen, reliable source, wrote on page 140 of his 1942 "Voyages to Vinland",

"...Some of the weaknesses these writers bring up against the Greenland Saga are imaginary, as their assertion that Tyrker was drunk when he brought the grapes back, or that Leif loaded his ship with grapes in the spring. Both of these are inferences which the text does not support..."

And, Birgitta Wallace wrote in 1986, that it was "...impossible to equate northern Newfoundland with Vinland." Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know what you point is. Are you saying the article equates northern Newfoundland with Vinland? Doug Weller talk 18:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying it, the ARTICLE is saying it...

"...Sometime around AD 1000, Leif spent the winter, probably near Cape Bauld on the northern tip of Newfoundland, where one day his foster father Tyrker was found drunk, on what the saga describes as "wine-berries." Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, take it to WP:NPOV or if more applicable WP:RSN Doug Weller talk 12:00, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Please explain what exactly you disagree with. Are you claiming the saga says Tyrker was drunk after eating wild grapes?

"...All encyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Rockawaypoint (talk) 12:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rockawaypoint Um, maybe after over 26,000 edits , becoming an Administrator, elected twice to the Arbitration Committee I know that?..We do have an article on Tryker which needs work. So far as I can see, it says that someone else said that. But that needs a source.

I appreciate your use of Wallace, but please see "The lead should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight."' What you added isn't a summary. ALso MOS:EDITORIAL, we avoid the word "however".

A more serious issue is that in .L'ANSE AUX MEADOWS AND VINLAND. (English)By: WALLACE, BIRGITTA LINDEROTH. Swedish Press. May2019, Vol. 90 Issue 4, p12-15. 4p. Wallace says "L’Anse aux Meadows cannot be Vinland. Vinland was a land, the same way Iceland and Greenland are lands, countries. But L’Anse aux Meadows is a place described in the sagas as part of Vinland. It is the Straumfjord of Eric’s Saga. It is the same kind of settlement, with the same kind of occupants and type of activities, a winter base from where expeditions went south in the summer. Although artifacts and buildings are typically Norse, the layout, location, and artifacts are different from the sites we know elsewhere in the Norse world. Just such a site is described in the sagas: Straumsfjord. A compelling reason why L’Anse aux Meadows has to be the main site in Vinland lies in demography." Doug Weller talk 14:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

As you just noted on other matter, "...only one academic is quoted."

Birgitta Wallace is not the only "source" for information on this topic, and not the final word.

Interesting to see above, "...Wallace says "L’Anse aux Meadows cannot be Vinland." But then in your comment at the end "...L'Anse aux Meadows has to be the main site in Vinland..." Is that from B. Wallace? ...and end quotes are missing there? Rockawaypoint (talk) 15:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, yes, I've added the end quote marks. Of course she isn't the only one, and where did I use the word "academics" for just one person? Doug Weller talk 15:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

On the other hand, what other famous archaeologists should we use? Doug Weller talk 16:09, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

How about Anton W. Brogger? Anton Wilhelm Brøgger - Misplaced Pages Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Far, far too old a source. I see he wrote something in 1937 Doug Weller talk 16:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Well what has taken place exactly to allow anyone today to dismiss Brogger? Would Albert Einstein be far, far too old today as a source in physics?  Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

You are equating Einstein's fame with that of Brogger? Do any modern archaeologists use him as a source? Doug Weller talk 16:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

He is held in very high regard even today.

He wrote https://archive.org/details/bwb_KR-488-404/page/n7/mode/2up"The Viking ships: Their ancestry and evolution and

https://archive.org/details/osebergshipbyant00brog Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

He is not widely cited. https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=anton+brogger+viking&oq=anton+brogger+v Simonm223 (talk) 17:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Especially compared to Einstein. Simonm223 (talk) 17:37, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Archaeology#What do people think of using Anton Wilhelm Brøgger as a source for Vinland? where I've raised the issue. Doug Weller talk 17:39, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

So you are saying that Carl O. Sauer is NOT a reliable source? Or what exactly is your objection to having quotes from Sauer added to the article? Rockawaypoint (talk) 14:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Doug, you said something about Carl Sauer and his death in 1975. How does that effect things again? I'm surprised to see how quickly you delete things after I spend the time typing in the information. Maybe people are thinking I'm presenting Sauer and Brogger as 'current' thinking, when all I'm trying to do is show that they were highly respected in their day and should not be left out of the article. Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't get a notification of a mention, Doug. I need to reorient myself here, and marshal my sources, but this dispute is old hat. I'll requote what I said in the hatted conversation. Northern Mists (1968) is not a reliable source for this kind of information. Sauer may have been a great geographer, but he was not so great a historian discussing these matters in this outdated book, mainly because he is speculating, drawing rather sweeping conclusions from the scantest historical evidence:

"...then, under pressure from Viking settlers , that they continued on to Greenland and North America, where they settled Hvitramannaland—"Ireland the Great"—in the St. Lawrence River valley in the 10th century. In a further indication of how outdated this book is, Sauer deduces that the L'Anse aux Meadows settlement was Irish rather than Norse, citing the extensive evidence of ironworking at the site and carbon dating."

I know of no recently published works by reliable sources that would support these fantastic theories. Carlstak (talk) 15:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Doesn't look as though we should use him. Doug Weller talk 16:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rockawaypoint I think the issue is that you have not demonstrated these two scholars were widely respected in their fields. Simonm223 (talk) 17:11, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I say we put Sauer's 1980 published quote back in. Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Take a look at the Misplaced Pages articles on them. Carl O. Sauer - Misplaced Pages

Anton Wilhelm Brøgger - Misplaced Pages Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Setting aside that Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source for a moment neither the Sauer article nor the Brøgger one establish they were respected for this. Sauer was quite respected... in geography and poetics of landscape. Not history. We don't even get that much from the Brøgger page which is principally about his political and administrative career. Simonm223 (talk) 17:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Well it's great to see the Misplaced Pages article on Sauer says "...He has been called "the dean of American historical geography." Sure seems as though Brogger had a long career in Norway as an archeologist and historian. Have you read anything he wrote on this topic? Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Anything? Rockawaypoint (talk) 20:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Again Sauer being a respected geographer is irrelevant here. It'd be like citing Charles Darwin in a chemistry page. Simonm223 (talk) 23:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Are you sure you want to stick with that idea?.... that "Geography" does not apply here? That sir, rates only as your "opinion". Rockawaypoint (talk) 23:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm perfectly aware of what Geography entails and why it failed to prevent Sauer from misidentifying Norse artifacts as Irish. Simonm223 (talk) 05:09, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Suggestion, it might be good to reread Carl Sauer's "Northern Mists." You will find he does not "misidenfify" anything at all. He merely points out for example.... "The foundations of the structures are as proper to Irish builders as to Norse." Sounds like a completely fair statement to me. Do you have the book? Unfortunately, only parts of it are on Google Books... not the Vinland chapter. Rockawaypoint (talk) 05:56, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Take a look at this one paragraph below from here-- Anton Wilhelm Brøgger – Norwegian Biographical Encyclopedia

Also, look into his 1937 book Vinlandsferdene.

Review here.... By A. W. Brøgger. (Oslo: Gyldendal. 1937. Pp. 208. 10 Kr.) | The American Historical Review | Oxford Academic

==========================

"...Brøgger's importance to Norwegian archaeology is not least due to his extensive administrative and organizational work. He played a leading role in organizing the registration of Norwegian Viking monuments in the British Isles in 1925, and in 1928 he led an archaeological expedition to Shetland and Orkney. In 1936 he led the 2nd International Congress of Archaeologists in Oslo in an excellent manner. That same year he was one of the founders of the Norwegian Archaeological Society, where he served as general secretary until his death. In 1916 he took the initiative to establish the Borre Fund for the promotion of Norwegian archaeology and was chairman of the National Association of Norwegian Museums from 1918 to 1934." Rockawaypoint (talk) 23:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest WP:1AM may provide you with some helpful guidance. Simonm223 (talk) 05:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Many thanks. Seems Dispute resolution might be needed here. Rockawaypoint (talk) 05:27, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

A less gentle way to put my point would have been WP:DROPTHESTICK. Simonm223 (talk) 14:25, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Sauer's 1975 draft, published 1980

See which says it adds no new material, publisher may also not be a RS; User talk:Carlstak You might be interested in these discussions. Doug Weller talk 14:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Doug, so here is the very final line in that report you posted about the final book by Carl Sauer; " ...Among its other virtues, the book establishes what a helpful handmaiden geography can be to history."

But someone above is saying "Sauer was quite respected... in geography and poetics of landscape. Not history."

Seems pretty clear that Sauer is still highly respected in the "history' field. I'd like to see the full paragraph by C.O.Sauer's 1980 Foreword returned to the article. Doug, if I do that will you delete it again? Rockawaypoint (talk) 12:36, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Probably, although someone else might beat me to it. I see no consensus for it. Doug Weller talk 14:08, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I would also revert as undue adding an entire paragraph from a 44 year old document. Simonm223 (talk) 14:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Isn't that just your biased opinion? All the argument here that Carl Sauer is not reliable source about the Norse in North America is completely groundless. See the chapter by Sauer in "American History and the Social Sciences." Sauer is still highly respected today, dead or alive.

American history and the social sciences : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

"....content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Rockawaypoint (talk) 14:39, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

OK so this is nearly reaching the point of WP:NPA. You have been directed to WP:AGEMATTERS. Simply put, you're trying to use a source from a geographer in 1980 to dispute a paper written by archeologists in 2003. Simonm223 (talk) 14:46, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

What paper from 2003 do you have in mind? Rockawaypoint (talk) 14:54, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

this one - the author has a second paper following up on the topic from 2010 with collaborators too. Simonm223 (talk) 15:01, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

But that paper is not in any way the 'final word', no matter how much you would like it to be. The discovery at L'Anse aux Meadows is also not the "end" of the Vinland debate, if anything it is the start of a new chapter. L'Anse aux Meadows has never been accepted as a site in Vinland... its been presented as one by B. Wallace and a few others, but it just one theory, with a fair amount of speculation thrown in. Would a source from 2009 satisfy you as up-to-date?

Graeme Davis- "Vikings in America" 2009

"...The Vikings explored what they called Markland — Forest Land — which is usually identified with southern Labrador and the island of Newfoundland. The land is therefore named after the resource that the Vikings were seeking. Further south is the land they called Vinland, usually regarded as New England. L’Anse aux Meadows, the most remarkable American Viking archaeological site, is in Newfoundland; not in Vinland as often suggested, but rather in Markland." page 8

"...What we have at L’Anse aux Meadows is not Viking Vinland, but Viking Markland." page 76

"...The northern tip of Newfoundland does not resemble the saga description of a fertile Vinland, and its winters could not be described, as the sagas do, as being exceptionally mild. Nothing about L’Anse aux Meadows fits the description of Leifsbudir." page 77

"...the finds at L’Anse aux Meadows demonstrate Viking presence on the American continent, Newfoundland is not Vinland." page 171 Rockawaypoint (talk) 15:46, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I never said it was the final word. I said a full paragraph on a book from 1980 was undue. This is getting very tedious. Simonm223 (talk) 15:48, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Why does he also say "... Markland, is plausibly identified with southern Labrador - though identification with the island of Newfoundland is equally possible." Doug Weller talk 16:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Sounds like a fair statement... Markland has been ID'd as southern Labrador, and Newfoundland too. Markland has also been ID'd as Nova Scotia. Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:20, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

On page 77 Graeme Davis says...

"...The site raises very many questions. First of all this is not Leifsbudir, or anywhere precisely identified in the sagas. Leifsbudir consisted of booths and later no more than two houses, and at no time had more than two ships there. Leifsbudir had a palisade for defence, which L’Anse aux Meadows does not. The northern tip of Newfoundland does not resemble the saga description of a fertile Vinland, and its winters could not be described, as the sagas do, as being exceptionally mild. Nothing about L’Anse aux Meadows fits the description of Leifsbudir." Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:28, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Davis's book was poorly reviewed in the few academic sources that reviewed it. For example, Paula Martin, writing in the International Journal of Nautical Archaeology, said of his book, Davis is a lecturer in English Linguistics who appears to know little about archaeology, and even less about early boats. He introduces the classic Viking longship as a technological advance, in moving from skeleton-first to the more flexible plank-first construction. He claims (p.16) that clinker planking ‘became the basis of all shipbuilding until iron hulls were developed’. And his description includes confusing explanations such as ‘The mast, the flooring and the rowing benches were likewise all fastened directly to the keel rather than to the hull, allowing the hull far greater flexibility’. A glance at the several publications in English from the Viking Ship Museum, Roskilde, would have sorted out such misunderstandings. As such it's another non-expert source. Simonm223 (talk) 18:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

(International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. Mar2012, Vol. 41 Issue 1, p219-220. 2p.) Simonm223 (talk) 18:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Another quote from the review is so critical it makes me wonder if Davis's book should be considered a WP:FRINGE document: The penultimate chapter, ‘Memories of Vikings in America’, is less convincing, building supposition upon supposition, and in the case of the secretive nature of the Vatican archive, bordering on conspiracy theory. Simonm223 (talk) 18:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

And, oh dear One example is the ‘Newport Tower’, on Rhode Island,. Simonm223 (talk) 18:20, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Davis seems pretty clearly fringe and definitely not a reliable source we can use. Doug Weller talk 18:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

That may be only POV. Here is a customer review about Davis's book- Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

A well-reasoned treatise written in an engaging style

Reviewed in the United States on October 7, 2022

This fresh look at the presence and influence of Vikings in America is a delightful, well researched read, tempered with adequate academic caution, but not afraid to put forth some plausible, if not currently accepted, theories and speculations about Viking presence in America. Professor Davis enlightens the interested reader with many historical tidbits that, in sum, make a very interesting and intriguing tale that certainly should stimulate further archeological, linguistic, and genetic research. Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

When it comes to reviews we can treat a review by a scholar published in an academic press as reliable. We cannot treat a user generated review on Amazon as reliable. I will reiterate a question @Moxy asked you elsewhere - do you have a school or alma mater through which you could access journals and academic publications? Because we seem to have a bit of an issue with source discernment to address. Simonm223 (talk) 19:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

In this case the capstone is mention of the Newport Tower where radiocarbon dating has indicated the structure was built in the late-1600s. Assignment of it to Norse origins is literally a WP:FRINGE theory. This is an example of why, on this page about Norse colonization, we should not be cleaving to the Vinland saga narrative and should, instead, be following the archaeological evidence. Simonm223 (talk) 19:47, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I expected that reaction with the customer review, but it seems there is some real value there too... from John Q. Public and his ideas. Here is another review of Davis's book,- "Fantastic read, this connecting of the dots makes the saga of Vikings in America more relevant personally. Love the willingness to challenge stodgy historians on their nonsense too"

Vikings in America by Graeme Davis | Goodreads Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

You say above...."I will reiterate a question @Moxy asked you elsewhere - do you have a school or alma mater through which you could access journals and academic publications?"

Send along any and all references you or Moxy would like to send. There is a real chance I've will have already seen them. I asked Moxy a while back to send anything but did not hear from him. Yes, sources are important. Where would like to direct my attention? Rockawaypoint (talk) 20:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

What I'm asking is more about whether you have access to academic resources as the sources you have been suggesting tend to either be very old works, commercial non-fiction or random webpages. Are you able to go to a university library or jstor or somewhere like that to find papers? Simonm223 (talk) 20:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, yes I do have access to academic resources. Again, send me anything - short citations - here. Some of my sources might be "old" but what about Mats Larsson's work? And Dr. Stuart C Brown of Memorial Uni? And Kirsten Seaver? And Gisli Sigurdsson? Are you going to say they are not reliable sources?? Or they are random in some way?

I've been looking over the book by Graeme Davis. Noting there strikes me as "fringe." On page 167 he writes about the Newport Tower, -"It is the established view that the building dates from the early colonial period and anyone who dissents from this view is treated as some modern-day heretic." Rockawaypoint (talk) 20:44, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Quoting from a review of B. Wallace's "Westward Vikings: The Saga of L’Anse aux Meadows" by Colleen Batey

Will everyone be OK with adding this from a 2006-2007 review by Colleen Batey of B. Wallace's book "Westward Vikings; The Saga of L'Anse aux Meadows"?

Birgitta Linderoth Wallace. Westward Vikings: The Saga of L’Anse aux Meadows

"...The long-held view that Newfoundland and indeed L’Anse aux Meadows was the totality of Vinland cannot be sustained. This is indeed a major change in our understanding of the site itself and of the colonisation, albeit temporary, of the eastern coast of Canada and the United States." Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:58, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I wonder if it would improve the article to follow the Greenland section with a section on further voyages containing subheadings for Baffin Island, Labrador, & Newfoundland. Rather than approaching this as a mystery (Where is Vinland?), we could then approach from the angle of where the evidence is at right now. That would be a kind of lengthy project, but I think is the solution in the long-term. Regardless, we shouldn't be giving readers the Viking Boston myths except in context as a myth, Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 19:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rjjiii (ii) That all soundss good.. Doug Weller talk 09:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Wallace doesn't believe that. Doug Weller talk 20:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Literally nobody here is suggesting that L'Anse Aux Meadows is the totality of Vinland. Simonm223 (talk) 21:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe so, but the author of the review describes a "...long held view...", that "...cannot be sustained." And this is only a Wiki Talk page. Rockawaypoint (talk) 21:36, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not sure why we should? The author is clearly an expert, a Senior Lecturer in the UK is the next thing to a professor (our titles are confusing - I didn't get past lecturer but was tenured when I was teaching at a University - in America lecturer is a very junior post. Doug Weller talk 09:07, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Just as you say she is "...clearly an expert." Here is a quick review of her career,,.. from a Smithsonian web page. Colleen Batey | Smithsonian Journeys Expert | Smithsonian Journeys

"Dr. Colleen Batey recently retired from the University of Glasgow, Scotland, where she was a senior lecturer in archaeology.  For the past 40 years, Colleen has been involved in research on the Viking Age in Scotland, Scandinavia, and the North Atlantic, serving as director of excavations and teaching. She was the British coordinator of Viking loan material for the highly successful Smithsonian exhibition, Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga, which toured widely in the U.S. starting in 2000 and attracted several million visitors throughout its run. More recently she was an academic advisor for “Uncovering the Vikings,” a PBS/BBC program that aired in 2016. She holds honorary positions at the University of the Highlands and Islands, the University of Durham, and Hunter College, New York, and has published numerous books and journal articles." Rockawaypoint (talk) 10:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

That isn't being challenged. Yes, in 2007 she wrote "The gateway concept is one which is now universally accepted, but which only came to prominence following the detailed work undertaken by Wallace and her colleagues through combined analyses of the saga sources, archaeological details, climatic considerations and scientific elaboration. The long-held view that Newfoundland and indeed L’Anse aux Meadows was the totality of Vinland cannot be sustained. "

So in 2007 that long-held view was dead, right? And for some time. Your quote left out vital context. Doug Weller talk 11:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

You and I may know that "long-held view" has been dead for the most part for some time, but many, many people today still believe Newfoundland falls within "Vinland." That is simply not the prevalent view among academics. Ms. Wallace may disagree of course but the case she tries to make today, - that L'Anse aux Meadows is "Straumsfjord", - has not gained much support. Just as Dr. Stuart C. Brown said of Helge Ingstad's efforts to convince people L'Anse aux Meadows was "Leifsbudir", , the same can be said of the effort to convince people that L'Anse aux Meadows is "Straumsfjord". It's simply unconvincing. So I believe the article is significantly improved by including Colleen Batey's quote, long or short form. The term "Colonization" even appears there.... what a coincidence. Rockawaypoint (talk) 11:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

No, you are misinterpreting the quote to match your POV. It's saying that the idea that L'Anse aux Meadows is the totality of Vinland is no longer believed in favor of the hypothesis that the site represents a gateway through which the colonists were able to access a much larger territory, Vinland. That doesn't say that L'Anse aux Meadows should not be considered part of Vinland, just that it should not be considered the extent of Vinland. Simonm223 (talk) 12:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

How would this site rate as a reliable source? I'm not even proposing it be added to the article, but maybe it should be used,,,, if only because it is 'current.' This www site also rejects L'Anse aux Meadows/northern Newfoundland as Vinland... So many other credible sources do so also.

============

Hurstwic: Viking-age Exploration in North America

"The Site. The L'Anse aux Meadows site is not Vínland. Even counting the intervening climate changes, L'Anse aux Meadows is too far north to support the vegetation described in the sagas..." Rockawaypoint (talk) 13:15, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

OK I'm getting a bit frustrated that, every time we discuss one source in this (and other) threads about a single source you then bring up an entirely different source. I am unclear how this has anything to do with the quote you originally wanted to discuss including. I will say I have no prior familiarity with Hurstwic but, from their about page, Hurstwic began life as an historically accurate living history group, started by Ron Black and Casey Dorman. The name Hurstwic was chosen based on Anglo-Saxon placenames but has no meaning other than that.

Prior to this time, my background was as Doctor of Science conducting research related to sound, acoustics, human hearing, and other fields. I received dozens of patents and was jointly awarded the IPO Inventor of the Year award in 1987. As such I would suggest that Hurstwic appears to be a WP:SPS. Simonm223 (talk) 13:19, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think we are experiencinh WP:BLUDGEONING which says

It is not necessary or desirable to reply to every comment in a discussion.

The more often you express the same ideas in a discussion, the less persuasive you become.

Dominating a discussion is a violation of the disruptive editing behavioral guideline and can get you blocked.

If this continues maybe WP:ANI would be appropriate]]. Doug Weller talk 13:27, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages, - "...To falsely accuse someone of bludgeoning is considered uncivil, and should be avoided. Everyone should have the chance to express their views within reasonable limits. Sometimes, a long comment or replying multiple times is perfectly acceptable or needed for consensus building. Rockawaypoint (talk) 13:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Good thing I didn’t actually accuse you but was just speculating, eh? Doug Weller talk 15:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

No, we'd agreed that. Doug Weller talk 12:55, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I've created a subpage to work on reorganizing this article at Talk:Norse colonization of North America/sandbox. While looking through it, I see two maps that don't cite their sources. They may be WP:OR in need of replacement. Rjj (talk) 19:34, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

It may be obvious that I'm a newbie... you just brought up maps, and I have a question...

How can the map on page 273 from Gisli Sigurdsson's book be added to both the 'Norse Colonization of N.America' article and the 'Vinland' article? The map is titled "The World of Vinland Studies," and covers the North American Atlantic coast from New York, New England, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland etc. It' would be good addition to any article touching on the Vinland 'problem'. Here is a link to the book on the Internet Archive.

The medieval Icelandic saga and oral tradition : a discourse on method : Gísli Sigurðsson, 1959- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:53, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The unfortunate answer is that it probably cannot be because it is very likely subject to copyright restrictions and Misplaced Pages cannot use copyrighted material. Simonm223 (talk) 20:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

But what about obtaining "Permission" from the publisher? Isn't that done sometimes on Misplaced Pages? Rockawaypoint (talk) 20:58, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rockawaypoint that's going to be a big hassle. To host it at the Commons, they'll want written permission via email from the publisher's legal department. There are three better options though:

1. Find a map on Commons and add in the relevant locations. You can upload this under the same licenses as the map you find there.
2. Find a map on Commons and add locations with an overlay template. This is more technically complicated, but you won't have to upload a new file.
3. Use the Open Street map template. This has less options, but that does make it more straightforward.

There are examples of all 3 methods on the sandbox page linked above. Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 01:01, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, I will look into it soon. I can produce a similar looking map but Gísli Sigurðsson's would carry more clout. Rockawaypoint (talk) 03:11, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Opinions

No one should criticize another editor for providing their opinions here. Such criticisms need to stop. Doug Weller talk 16:21, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

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