Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle: Difference between revisions

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			{{short description\|Misplaced Pages supplemental page}}
	{{Supplement\|Misplaced Pages:Consensus\|Misplaced Pages:Be bold\|shortcut=WP:BRD}}
			{{Selfref\|"WP:BRD" redirects here. For {{lang\|de\|Bundesrepublik Deutschland\|nocat=true}}, see ]. <br/>"WP:CYCLE" redirects here. You may be looking for ]. <br/>See also ].}}
			{{Supplement\|pages=] and ] pages\|shortcut=WP:BRD\|shortcut2=WP:CYCLE}}

			{{nutshell\|Making ''']''' is encouraged, as it will result in either improving an article or stimulating discussion. If your edit gets ''']''', do not revert again. Instead, begin a ''']''' with the person who reverted your change.}}
	]''. ]]
			]''' and ''']''' is mandatory.]]
	The '''BOLD, revert, discuss cycle''' (BRD) is a proactive method for reaching consensus on any wiki with revision control. It can be useful for identifying objections to edits, breaking deadlocks, keeping discussion moving forward. Note that this process must be used with care and diplomacy; some editors will see it as a challenge, so be considerate and patient. This method can be particularly useful when other dispute resolution for a particular wiki is not present, or has currently failed.

			The '''BOLD, revert, discuss cycle''' ('''BRD''') is one of many ''optional'' strategies that editors may use to seek ]. This process is <em>not</em> mandated by Misplaced Pages policy, but it can be useful for identifying objections, keeping discussion moving forward and helping to break deadlocks. In other situations, you may have better success with ]. Care and diplomacy should be exercised. Some editors will see any reversion as a challenge, so be considerate and patient.
	== Overview ==
	* '''Problem''': Editing a particular page has become tricky, too many people are stuck discussing endlessly, and no progress can be made.
	* '''How to proceed''': Discover the Most Interested Persons, and reach a compromise/consensus with each, one by one.

			] is a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages. All editors are welcome to make positive contributions. It's how new information is added to Misplaced Pages. When in doubt, edit! Either the edit will get the attention of interested editors, or you will simply improve the page. Either is a good outcome.
	The assumption is that Most Interested Persons will have a page watchlisted or will quickly discover if a particular page is changed.

			] an edit if you disagree with it and cannot immediately ]. If you revert, be specific about your reasons in the ] or on the talk page. BRD does ''not'' encourage reverting, but recognizes that reversions happen. Always follow the ] and ].
	# ], and make what you currently believe to be the optimal change. <small>''(any change will do, but it is easier and wiser to proceed based on your best effort.)''</small>
	# Wait until someone ] (or ''modifies'') your edit.
	# You have now discovered a Most Interested Person. Discuss the changes you would like to make with this person, and reach a compromise.

			] your bold edit with the person who reverted you. To follow BRD specifically, instead of one of the many ], don't restore your bold edit, don't ] to this part of the page, don't engage in ], and don't start any of the larger ] processes. Talk to that one person until the two of you have reached an agreement.
	Apply the compromise by editing the page, after which the cycle repeats.
	When people start regularly making non-revert edits again, you are done.

			'''Cycle'''. To avoid ] in discussion, when you have a better understanding of the reverter's concerns, you may ] that reasonably addresses some aspect of those concerns. You can try this even if the discussion has not reached an explicit conclusion, but be sure to avoid engaging in any kind of ].
	===What BRD is, and is not===
	BRD is most useful for pages where seeking consensus would be difficult, perhaps because it is not clear which other editors are watching or sufficiently interested in the page, though there are other suitable methods.

			== General overview ==
	BRD is best used by experienced wiki-editors. It requires more diplomacy and skill to use successfully than other methods, and has more potential for failure. You can also try using it in less volatile situations, but take care when doing so. Some have even taken to simply declaring their intent by adding the shortcut ''"<nowiki>]</nowiki>"'' at the front of their ]. This seems to help keep people from taking as much offense at proposed changes. In a way, you're actively provoking another person with an edit they may (strongly) disagree on, so you're going to need to use all your tact to explain what you're aiming to achieve, and convince them that you are ].
			]''.]]

			;When to use: While editing a particular page that many editors are discussing with little to no progress being made, or when an editor's concerns are not addressed on the talk page after a reasonable amount of effort.
	When editing articles:
			;How to proceed: Find an interested person, and reach a compromise or consensus with that person, in one-on-one discussion.
			# ], and make what you currently believe to be the optimal changes based on your best effort. Your change might involve re-writing, rearranging, adding or removing information.
			# Wait until someone ] your edit. You have now discovered your first VIP.
			# Discuss the changes you would like to make with this VIP, perhaps using other forms of ] as needed, and reach an agreement. Apply your agreement. When reverts have stopped, you are done.

			== Use cases ==
	BRD is not a justification for imposing one's own view, or ] without consensus. It is a way for editors who have a good grasp of a subject to more rapidly engage discussion and make changes that are probably good, in articles where a "discuss first" method of consensus is unlikely to lead to quick progress.
			]
			BRD is most useful for pages where seeking and achieving consensus in advance of the bold edit could be difficult, perhaps because it is not clear which other editors are watching or sufficiently interested in the page, though there are other suitable methods. BRD helps editors who have a good grasp of a subject to rapidly engage discussion.

			Examples cases for use include where:
	BRD is not a substitute for prior research which would support the initial edit or a reversion of it. Researching first, then citing sources, may reduce the likelihood of a reversion or, if one takes place, help keep the resulting discussion constructive.
			* Two factions are engaged in an ] and a bold edit is made as a compromise or middle ground.
			* Discussion has died out with no agreement being reached.
			* Active discussion is not producing results.
			* Your view differs significantly from a rough consensus on an emotionally loaded subject.
			* ] is currently opposed to making any changes whatsoever (when pages are frozen, "policy", or high-profile)

			BRD is best used by experienced Misplaced Pages editors. It may require more diplomacy and skill to use successfully than other methods, and has more potential for failure. Using BRD in volatile situations is discouraged.
	==The BRD process==

			In general, BRD fails if:
	# ] to the page.
			* ...there is consensus in the community against the specific change you'd like to make.
	# Wait until someone ] your change or makes another substantial edit. ''']'''!
			* ...there is a dispute on the page, by editors with entrenched positions, and you are reigniting a debate that has achieved stalemate without consensus.
	# If a disagreement arises, gracefully back down a bit, and ] your reasoning with the reverter and consider their different views too (don't go for discussion with too many people at once). Once you reach agreement, start the cycle again by making the agreed change.
			* ...the page is protected. (You may request ].)
			* ...the page is subject to some other access control. (Get the control lifted.)
			* ...the discussion goes on too long or reaches another stalemate.
			* ...a single editor is reverting changes and exhibiting ].
			* ...individuals revert bold changes but aren't willing to discuss improvements to the page.
			* ...the individual who reverts the bold change actually supports it, but is reverting as a proxy for some other, unidentified person.

			BRD is especially successful where:
	Wash, rinse, repeat. If no one reverts after a couple of days, congratulations! You got out of the impasse and got changes done.
			* ... people haven't really thought things through yet.
			* ... people are only discussing policy or theory, and are not applying reasoning or trying to negotiate consensus.
			* ... people are ] instead of ] with concrete proposals.
			In short: boldly negotiate where no one has negotiated before.

			== What BRD is not<span class="anchor" id="ISNOT"></span><span class="anchor" id="What_BRD_is,_and_is_not"></span> ==
	===Cases for use===
			{{Shortcut\|WP:BRD-NOT}}
	]
			{{ombox\|image=none\|small=y\|text=]
	When other methods have failed, when cooperation has broken down, when it is not clear that a talk page request for discussion will generate any significant response, or when no editor is willing to make changes which might be perceived as controversial: these cases are when BRD is most effective. Examples of these include cases where:
	* Two factions are engaged in an ]
	* Discussion has died out with no agreement being reached
	* Active discussion is not producing results
	* Your view differs significantly from a vocal majority on a loaded subject
	* Local consensus is currently opposed to making any changes whatsoever (when pages are frozen, "policy", or high profile)

			BRD is an optional process for experienced editors. BRD only works when ''both'' bold ''and'' reverting editors follow the process.
	BRD will generally fail if:
	* There is a (large) preexisting consensus against the specific change you'd like to make
	* The page is protected. (get the page unprotected)
	* The page is subject to some other access control. (get the control lifted)
	* You lose ]

			BRD is not a ] for the reverter. If you tell someone to follow BRD when you revert their edits, then you need to follow BRD yourself, which means joining the discussion and explaining your substantive reasons for rejecting their edits.
	===Tactics===
	Using BRD should draw a response from someone who has the page on their watchlist.

			'''If you don't want to talk about it, then don't tell other editors to follow BRD.'''}}
	After someone reverts your change, thus taking a stand for the existing version, you can proceed toward consensus with that one person. Each pass through the cycle finds a new person to work with, eventually forming consensus with all of the interested parties. As such, BRD is generally not an end unto itself - it moves the process past a blockage, and helps get people get back to cooperative editing.
			* BRD is not a justification for imposing one's own view or for ].

			* BRD is not a valid excuse for ].
	After a while, people will begin to refrain from outright reversion, and edits will start to flow more naturally.
			* BRD is never a reason for reverting. Unless the reversion is supported by ] or ], the reversion is not part of BRD cycle.
			* {{anchor\|Best_following_BRD}}BRD is not an excuse to revert any change more than once. This applies equally to bold editors and to reverters. If your reversion is met with another bold effort, then you should consider discussing instead of reverting. The talk page is open to all editors, not just bold ones. The first person to start a discussion is the person who is best following BRD.
			* BRD is not mandatory. Neither are editors obliged to start it nor are they obliged to stick to it just because you started it. They may try ], or even an alternative not mentioned here.
			* BRD is not a valid course of action when using advanced permissions. Editors with permissions such as administrator or template editor can take actions which few editors are able to revert if they disagree, preventing the R step of BRD.

	==~~Details~~==		==Process==
			Making bold edits may sometimes draw a response from an interested editor, who may have the article on their watchlist. If no one responds, you have the ] to continue editing. If your edit is reverted, the BRD cycle has been initiated by the reverting editor.
	For each step in the cycle here are some points to remember.

			After someone reverts your change, thus taking a stand for the existing version or against the change, you can proceed toward a consensus with the challenging editor through discussion on a talk page. While discussing the disputed content, neither editor should revert or change the content being discussed until a compromise or consensus is reached. Each pass through the cycle may find a new, interested editor to work with, or new issue being disputed. If you follow the process as it is intended each time, you should eventually achieve consensus with all parties. As such, BRD is in general not an end unto itself; it moves the process past a blockage, and helps people get back to cooperative editing.
	===Bold===
	* '''Stay focused''': Only make the changes you absolutely need to. Bold doesn't have to be big, and keeping your edit focused is more likely to yield results than making an over-reaching change.
	* '''Try to make the edit and its explanation simultaneous''': Many people will first make an edit, and then explain it on the talk page. Somehow there will always be some fast-off-the-hip reverter who manages to revert you right in the middle, before you have time to complete your explanation. To try to prevent this, reverse the order, first edit the talk page, and then make your edit '''immediately afterwards'''. This way your explanation will already be there at the moment of the expected revert. Don't hesitate between the two actions though, since for some reason people tend to be accused of bad faith if they do that. Best of all, if the page has little activity right now, you might be able to prepare edits to page and talk page summary, and save them simultaneously.
	* '''Expect strong resistance- even hostility''': Deliberately getting people to revert or respond to you feels a bit like disruption. Trying to change things certainly does, even when it's an obvious change for the better! If you do this cycle perfectly, most people will grudgingly accept you. Do it less than perfectly, and they will certainly be mad at you. Do it wrong, and they will hate your guts.

			If the BRD process works ideally (sometimes it does not), people will after a time begin to refrain from outright reversion, and edits will start to flow more naturally.
	===Revert===
	* '''Reverting doesn't help build consensus''': Try to avoid reverting a revert yourself. Try to get the reverting party to unrevert themselves, and/or get them to make an edit themselves.
	* '''If people start making non-revert changes again, you are done''': The normal editing cycle has been restored.

			For each step in the cycle, here are some points to remember.
	===Discuss===

			=== Bold ===
	* '''Adhere to ] and ] guidelines''': The easiest way to intensify this cycle and make it unbreakable is to be uncivil. Try to lead by example and keep your partner in the same mind set.
			{{Shortcut\|WP:BRDB\|WP:BRDBOLD}}
			* '''Stay focused''': Make only changes you absolutely need to. A bold edit doesn't have to be a huge edit, and keeping your edit focused is more likely to yield results than making an over-reaching change. If a bold edit might be controversial, consider adding "(revert if inappropriate)" or similar to the edit summary to alert others.
			* '''See what happens next''': Stop editing the page long enough to see if anyone objects. Depending on the nature of your change and the traffic on the page, this may take anywhere from mere minutes to more than a week.
			* '''Expect resistance—even hostility''': Be ready to start a discussion as soon as you notice that anyone has objected. If you want, you can even write your response while you are waiting to see what happens.
			* '''Be respectful''': Regardless of what others say, keep your composure.

			=== Revert ===
			{{Shortcut\|WP:BRDR\|WP:BRDREVERT}}
			* '''Before reverting''', first consider whether the original text could have been better improved in a different way or if part of the edit can be fixed to ] some of the edit, and whether you would like to make that bold edit instead. Partial reversion, ], is better than complete reversion. The other disputant may respond with another bold edit, or with a refinement on your improvement. '''The "]" process is the ideal collaborative editing cycle'''. Improving pages through collaborative editing is ideal. However, if you find yourself making reversions or near-reversions, then stop editing and move to the next stage, "Discuss".
			* '''Before reverting''' a change to an article in the absence of explicit consensus, be sure you actually have a disagreement with the content of the bold edit (and can express that disagreement), not merely a concern that ''someone else'' might disagree with the edit. A revert needs to present a path forward, either by expressing a concern with the content of the edit itself, or pointing to a previous discussion that did.
			* '''In the edit summary of your revert''', briefly explain why you reverted. You can encourage the bold editor to start a discussion on the article talk page if they want to learn more about why you reverted. Alternatively, start a discussion yourself on the article talk page about the issue. People feel more cooperative if you let them know that you're willing to listen to their case for the change. Otherwise, a revert can seem brusque.
			* '''If you revert twice, then you are no longer following the BRD cycle''': If your reversion is reverted, then there may be a good reason for it. Go to the talk page to learn why you were reverted.
			* '''If people start making non-revert changes again, you are done''': The normal editing cycle has been restored.

			=== Discuss ===
			{{Shortcut\|WP:BRDD\|WP:BRDDISCUSS}}
			* '''If your bold edit was reverted, then do not re-revert to your version. If your reversion was reverted, then do not re-revert to your version.''' Instead, take it to the talk page (see below). If you re-revert, then you are no longer following BRD.
			* '''Adhere to ] and ] guidelines''': The easiest way to intensify this cycle and make it unbreakable is to be uncivil. Try to lead by example and keep your partner in the same mindset.
	* '''Talk with one or at most two partners at once.''' As long as the discussion is moving forward, do not feel the need to respond to everyone, as this increases the chance of discussion losing focus and going far afield. Stay on point and pick your responses. If discussion dies off, you can always go back and get yourself reverted again to find (or refind) other interested parties.		* '''Talk with one or at most two partners at once.''' As long as the discussion is moving forward, do not feel the need to respond to everyone, as this increases the chance of discussion losing focus and going far afield. Stay on point and pick your responses. If discussion dies off, you can always go back and get yourself reverted again to find (or refind) other interested parties.
			* '''Carefully consider whether "policy", "consensus", or "procedure" are valid reasons for the revert''': These sometimes get overused on consensus-based wikis even though ]. On the other hand, repeatedly rehashing old arguments without new reasoning might strike some editors as being ] (see also ]). It is OK to disagree with a past consensus, but use reasonable discretion when you want to revisit such issues. If you choose not to back off immediately, it will help if you:
			** '''Listen very carefully''': You are trying to get the full and considered views of those who care enough to disagree with your edit. If you do not listen and do not try to find consensus, you are ]. You should not accept ''"It's policy, live with it."''
			** '''Be ready to compromise''': If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions, so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.
			* '''Discuss on a talk page''': Don't assume that a re-revert edit summary can constitute "discussion": There is no way for others to respond without risking an edit war. ''See also'' ]. You can use the article's talk page (preferred) or the editor's user talk page, or ] if they insist on using only edit summaries, but one or the other is the proper forum for the discussion component of the BRD cycle.

			=== Bold (again) ===
			* '''Let the other editor apply agreed-upon changes.''' If they don't want to, that's okay, but be sure to offer. The offer alone shows deference and respect. If that editor accepts, (1) the history will show who made the change and the other editor will have control over the precise wording (keeping you from applying a change different from the one agreed upon). And, (2) such a practice prevents you from falling afoul of the ].
			* '''Assume this revision will not be the final version.''' You do not have to get it all done in one edit. If you can find consensus on some parts, make those changes, and let them settle. This will give everyone a new point to build from. Having completed one successful cycle, you may also find it easier to get traction for further changes, or you may find you have reached a reasonable compromise and can stop.

			== Edit warring ==
			{{Shortcut\|WP:NOTSTUCK}}
			* '''Do not ].''' Once discussion has begun, restoring one's original edit without taking other users' concerns into account may be seen as ]. These so-called "re-reverts" are uncollaborative and could incur sanctions such as a ]. The objective is to seek consensus, not force one's own will upon other editors. If you encounter ''several'' reverts, it is best not to escalate the situation by reverting again. Instead, try to build consensus through seeking additional input. Several methods for this are listed at ].
			* ''' However, don't get stuck on the discussion'''. Whichever side you happen to be on, try to move the discussion towards consensus by getting pro/con points identified so that a new edit may be attempted as quickly as possible. Feel free to try a new bold edit during the discussion if the new edit reasonably reflects some aspect of the opposing editors' concerns. This approach quickly determines whether the important issues have been resolved; if not, it brings the core sticking points into focus.
			** '''Warning:''' Repeatedly doing this can easily violate the ] policy and get good-faith editors blocked even during a productive editing exchange. Any such edits must be clear attempts to try a ''modified'' solution that reflects some aspect of the other editor's remarks. If you have reached three reverts within a ''24-hour'' period (3RR bright-line rule), do not edit that content in any manner that reverts any content, in whole or in part, even as little as a single word, for over 24 hours. Doing so just past the 24-hour period could be seen as gaming the system and sanctions may still be applied.

			== Additional considerations ==
			* Because of the nature of Misplaced Pages, a BRD cycle may begin naturally, without either editor even realizing it. Once begun, its purpose requires that no reversion be counter-reverted. If this happens, something akin to ] an aircraft happens. If you're not feeling up to it, it might be best to walk away for a while. Unlike the immediate danger of an aircraft plummeting to the ground, ], so you can always come back later. Otherwise, if you have the energy and the time, use the suggestions on this page to "pull out". Then continue working as per consensus.
			* BRD is a way of letting you focus on one editor: You cared enough about the page to try to improve it, someone else cared enough to revert your bold change, and you both cared enough to find a compromise through discussion. This is an excellent collaborative style. But there may be other editors interested in that page, so a third editor might revert your compromise, or might revert your next attempt to improve it. If so, that's okay: You can repeat the BRD cycle with that third editor. Just start a new discussion, and find a new compromise.

			==Alternatives==
			{{shortcut\|WP:BRB}}

			"BOLD, revert, discuss" doesn't work well in all situations. It is ideally suited to disputes that involve only a few people, all of whom are interested in making progress. There are many other options, and some may be more suitable for other situations.

			===Discuss first===
			Don't be bold with potentially controversial changes; instead, ] first. Make no edits to the page until you have agreement.

			===Bold, discuss===
			You do not need to revert an edit before the discussion can start. If you see (or make) a bold edit and you want to talk about it, then you can click on the talk page and start discussing it. You might discover ways to refine it, or you might discover that you're satisfied with the edit as it is.

			===Bold, discuss, revert===
			You make a bold edit, then open a discussion. The edit is found to be problematic or lacking, so it is reverted. This sometimes happens when people attempt to make an edit that has severe flaws or problems that cannot be resolved via other methods. If this cycle happens, it might be best for you to step away from the article, and consider the discussion feedback.

			===Bold, discuss, bold===
	* '''There is no such thing as a consensus version''': Your own major edit, by definition, differs significantly from the existing version, meaning the existing version is no longer a consensus version. If you successfully complete this cycle, then you will have a new consensus version. If you fail, you will have a different kind of ].
			You make a bold edit, then open a discussion. After the discussion, you or others boldly improve the edit based on the discussion suggestions. This cycle is useful if your edit is helpful, but needs to be improved, and if feedback would be valuable to improving the edit.

			===]===
	* '''Do not accept "Policy" , "consensus", or "procedure" as valid reasons for a revert''': These sometimes get worn in on consensus-based wikis. You are disagreeing, that is okay. Do not back off immediately, '''BUT''':
			You edit, they edit, you edit again, with each edit improving the prior edit. This is successful, collaborative editing. Keep at it.
	** '''Listen very carefully''': You are trying to get the full and considered views of those who care enough to disagree with your edit. If you do not listen and do not try to find consensus, you are ]. You should not accept, ''"It's policy, live with it."'' On the other hand, you should completely understand the implications when someone explains to you, ''"The flurbeling you suggest caused very bad barbelism, that's why we decided to always floop before we fleep instead."''
	** '''Be ready to ]''': If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions, so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.

	===Bold (again)===		===Bold, revert, bold again===
			Don't stop editing, and don't discuss. Make a guess about why the reverter disagreed with you, and try a different edit to see whether that will be accepted. It's often helpful if your next effort is smaller, because that may help you figure out why the other editor objected to your change.

			{{anchor\|BRR}}
	* '''Let them apply agreed-upon changes.''' If they don't want to, that's okay, but be sure to offer. The offer alone shows deference and respect. If they accept, the change history will clearly show they signed off on the change, and they will also have control over the precise wording (keeping you from accidentally applying a change different than the one they expected). Also, on the English Misplaced Pages and other projects with similar policies, this prevents you from falling afoul of the ].
			===Bold, revert, revert===
	* '''Assume this revision will not be the final version.''' You do not have to get it all done in one edit. If you can find consensus on some parts, make those changes, and let them settle. This will give everyone a new point to build from. Having completed one successful cycle, you may also find it easier to get traction for further changes, or may find you have reached a reasonable compromise and can stop.
			{{shortcut\|WP:BRR}}
			If you genuinely believe the reversion was a mistake you might try speeding things up by reverting the revert, but you should explain why you think the other editor made a mistake in a note or ] to reduce the risk of ].
			* An example of such a mistake is when someone reverts your removal of duplicate material because they didn't realize that the same sentence was on the page twice.
			* '''Not''' an example of such a mistake: A revert with a rationale that you disagree with, or that does not make sense to you. Another case where the re-revert may be necessary is when an incumbent editor reverts without justification in the edit summary, which is a form ]. ''But see'' ].
			* Sometimes ''bold, revert, revert'' may function as a form of ''bold, refine'' (see above), particularly among editors who already have a positive working relationship. Beware, though: To an outside observer, such "friendly reverts" may not be readily distinguishable from edit-warring, and ] still applies.

			===]===
	== Notes ==
			Move on to another article. You might be able to improve a hundred articles in the time that it takes you to discuss this one. Why not move on?

			Several ''']''' processes may also be useful to break a deadlock.
	* If an issue is already under discussion or was recently discussed, people may take offense if you boldly ignore the discussion, especially if you make a change away from a version arrived at through consensus, to an earlier or suggested non-consensual version. Ignoring earlier consensus is generally not a wise approach!
	* Note that due to the nature of ] a Bold, revert, discuss cycle can sometimes start by accident. Perhaps somewhat akin to ] an aircraft. If you're not feeling up to it, it might be best to walk away for a while. Unlike the immediate danger of an aircraft plummeting to the ground, ], so don't panic; you can always come back later. Else, if you have the energy and the time, use the suggestions on this page to "pull out". Then continue working as per consensus.
	* If you attempt to apply Bold-Revert-Discuss two or more times in quick succession, you might just end up in a revert-war with the first responder. Take it one at a time.
	* On the English wikipedia, you may find that the page gets protected a couple of times during early stages of BRD. Try to get it unprotected as rapidly as possible. Loss of tempo can be a fatal problem.

	== See also ==		== See also ==
	* ]		* ]
	* ]		* ]
			* ]
	* ]
			* {{section link\|Misplaced Pages:Editing policy\|Try to fix problems}}

			{{Misplaced Pages essays\|building}}
	]
			]

Latest revision as of 23:19, 4 December 2024

Misplaced Pages supplemental page "WP:BRD" redirects here. For Bundesrepublik Deutschland, see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Germany.
"WP:CYCLE" redirects here. You may be looking for Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cycling.
See also Misplaced Pages:What editors mean when they say you have to follow BRD.

This is an explanatory essay about the Misplaced Pages:Consensus and Misplaced Pages:Be bold pages.
This page provides additional information about concepts in the page(s) it supplements. This page is not one of Misplaced Pages's policies or guidelines as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community.

Shortcuts

Explanatory essay about the Misplaced Pages:Consensus and Misplaced Pages:Be bold pages

This page in a nutshell: Making bold edits is encouraged, as it will result in either improving an article or stimulating discussion. If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change.

The BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (BRD) is one of many optional strategies that editors may use to seek consensus. This process is not mandated by Misplaced Pages policy, but it can be useful for identifying objections, keeping discussion moving forward and helping to break deadlocks. In other situations, you may have better success with alternatives to this approach. Care and diplomacy should be exercised. Some editors will see any reversion as a challenge, so be considerate and patient.

Bold editing is a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages. All editors are welcome to make positive contributions. It's how new information is added to Misplaced Pages. When in doubt, edit! Either the edit will get the attention of interested editors, or you will simply improve the page. Either is a good outcome.

Revert an edit if you disagree with it and cannot immediately refine it. If you revert, be specific about your reasons in the edit summary or on the talk page. BRD does not encourage reverting, but recognizes that reversions happen. Always follow the editing policy and revert only when necessary.

Discuss your bold edit with the person who reverted you. To follow BRD specifically, instead of one of the many alternatives, don't restore your bold edit, don't make a different edit to this part of the page, don't engage in back-and-forth reverting, and don't start any of the larger dispute resolution processes. Talk to that one person until the two of you have reached an agreement.

Cycle. To avoid bogging down in discussion, when you have a better understanding of the reverter's concerns, you may attempt a new edit that reasonably addresses some aspect of those concerns. You can try this even if the discussion has not reached an explicit conclusion, but be sure to avoid engaging in any kind of edit warring.

General overview

It is often hard to find out who to talk with to gain consensus. By making a bold edit you attract the attention of people who are genuinely interested in a page, and have it on their watchlist. You can then discuss your issues with them. *Compare Misplaced Pages:Consensus*.

When to use: While editing a particular page that many editors are discussing with little to no progress being made, or when an editor's concerns are not addressed on the talk page after a reasonable amount of effort.
How to proceed: Find an interested person, and reach a compromise or consensus with that person, in one-on-one discussion.

Be bold, and make what you currently believe to be the optimal changes based on your best effort. Your change might involve re-writing, rearranging, adding or removing information.
Wait until someone reverts your edit. You have now discovered your first VIP.
Discuss the changes you would like to make with this VIP, perhaps using other forms of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution as needed, and reach an agreement. Apply your agreement. When reverts have stopped, you are done.

Use cases

BRD is most useful for pages where seeking and achieving consensus in advance of the bold edit could be difficult, perhaps because it is not clear which other editors are watching or sufficiently interested in the page, though there are other suitable methods. BRD helps editors who have a good grasp of a subject to rapidly engage discussion.

Examples cases for use include where:

Two factions are engaged in an edit war and a bold edit is made as a compromise or middle ground.
Discussion has died out with no agreement being reached.
Active discussion is not producing results.
Your view differs significantly from a rough consensus on an emotionally loaded subject.
Local consensus is currently opposed to making any changes whatsoever (when pages are frozen, "policy", or high-profile)

BRD is best used by experienced Misplaced Pages editors. It may require more diplomacy and skill to use successfully than other methods, and has more potential for failure. Using BRD in volatile situations is discouraged.

In general, BRD fails if:

...there is consensus in the community against the specific change you'd like to make.
...there is a dispute on the page, by editors with entrenched positions, and you are reigniting a debate that has achieved stalemate without consensus.
...the page is protected. (You may request unprotection.)
...the page is subject to some other access control. (Get the control lifted.)
...the discussion goes on too long or reaches another stalemate.
...a single editor is reverting changes and exhibiting other forms of ownership attitudes.
...individuals revert bold changes but aren't willing to discuss improvements to the page.
...the individual who reverts the bold change actually supports it, but is reverting as a proxy for some other, unidentified person.

BRD is especially successful where:

... people haven't really thought things through yet.
... people are only discussing policy or theory, and are not applying reasoning or trying to negotiate consensus.
... people are talking past each other instead of getting down to brass tacks with concrete proposals.

In short: boldly negotiate where no one has negotiated before.

What BRD is not

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BRD is an optional process for experienced editors. BRD only works when both bold and reverting editors follow the process.

BRD is not a get-out-of-discussion-free card for the reverter. If you tell someone to follow BRD when you revert their edits, then you need to follow BRD yourself, which means joining the discussion and explaining your substantive reasons for rejecting their edits.

If you don't want to talk about it, then don't tell other editors to follow BRD.

BRD is not a justification for imposing one's own view or for tendentious editing.
BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes.
BRD is never a reason for reverting. Unless the reversion is supported by policies, guidelines or common sense, the reversion is not part of BRD cycle.
BRD is not an excuse to revert any change more than once. This applies equally to bold editors and to reverters. If your reversion is met with another bold effort, then you should consider discussing instead of reverting. The talk page is open to all editors, not just bold ones. The first person to start a discussion is the person who is best following BRD.
BRD is not mandatory. Neither are editors obliged to start it nor are they obliged to stick to it just because you started it. They may try one of the alternatives given below, or even an alternative not mentioned here.
BRD is not a valid course of action when using advanced permissions. Editors with permissions such as administrator or template editor can take actions which few editors are able to revert if they disagree, preventing the R step of BRD.

Process

Making bold edits may sometimes draw a response from an interested editor, who may have the article on their watchlist. If no one responds, you have the silent consensus to continue editing. If your edit is reverted, the BRD cycle has been initiated by the reverting editor.

After someone reverts your change, thus taking a stand for the existing version or against the change, you can proceed toward a consensus with the challenging editor through discussion on a talk page. While discussing the disputed content, neither editor should revert or change the content being discussed until a compromise or consensus is reached. Each pass through the cycle may find a new, interested editor to work with, or new issue being disputed. If you follow the process as it is intended each time, you should eventually achieve consensus with all parties. As such, BRD is in general not an end unto itself; it moves the process past a blockage, and helps people get back to cooperative editing.

If the BRD process works ideally (sometimes it does not), people will after a time begin to refrain from outright reversion, and edits will start to flow more naturally.

For each step in the cycle, here are some points to remember.

Bold

Shortcuts

Stay focused: Make only changes you absolutely need to. A bold edit doesn't have to be a huge edit, and keeping your edit focused is more likely to yield results than making an over-reaching change. If a bold edit might be controversial, consider adding "(revert if inappropriate)" or similar to the edit summary to alert others.
See what happens next: Stop editing the page long enough to see if anyone objects. Depending on the nature of your change and the traffic on the page, this may take anywhere from mere minutes to more than a week.
Expect resistance—even hostility: Be ready to start a discussion as soon as you notice that anyone has objected. If you want, you can even write your response while you are waiting to see what happens.
Be respectful: Regardless of what others say, keep your composure.

Revert

Shortcuts

Before reverting, first consider whether the original text could have been better improved in a different way or if part of the edit can be fixed to WP:PRESERVE some of the edit, and whether you would like to make that bold edit instead. Partial reversion, WP:PARTR, is better than complete reversion. The other disputant may respond with another bold edit, or with a refinement on your improvement. The "WP:Bold-refine" process is the ideal collaborative editing cycle. Improving pages through collaborative editing is ideal. However, if you find yourself making reversions or near-reversions, then stop editing and move to the next stage, "Discuss".
Before reverting a change to an article in the absence of explicit consensus, be sure you actually have a disagreement with the content of the bold edit (and can express that disagreement), not merely a concern that someone else might disagree with the edit. A revert needs to present a path forward, either by expressing a concern with the content of the edit itself, or pointing to a previous discussion that did.
In the edit summary of your revert, briefly explain why you reverted. You can encourage the bold editor to start a discussion on the article talk page if they want to learn more about why you reverted. Alternatively, start a discussion yourself on the article talk page about the issue. People feel more cooperative if you let them know that you're willing to listen to their case for the change. Otherwise, a revert can seem brusque.
If you revert twice, then you are no longer following the BRD cycle: If your reversion is reverted, then there may be a good reason for it. Go to the talk page to learn why you were reverted.
If people start making non-revert changes again, you are done: The normal editing cycle has been restored.

Discuss

Shortcuts

If your bold edit was reverted, then do not re-revert to your version. If your reversion was reverted, then do not re-revert to your version. Instead, take it to the talk page (see below). If you re-revert, then you are no longer following BRD.
Adhere to Wikiquette and civility guidelines: The easiest way to intensify this cycle and make it unbreakable is to be uncivil. Try to lead by example and keep your partner in the same mindset.
Talk with one or at most two partners at once. As long as the discussion is moving forward, do not feel the need to respond to everyone, as this increases the chance of discussion losing focus and going far afield. Stay on point and pick your responses. If discussion dies off, you can always go back and get yourself reverted again to find (or refind) other interested parties.
Carefully consider whether "policy", "consensus", or "procedure" are valid reasons for the revert: These sometimes get overused on consensus-based wikis even though consensus can change. On the other hand, repeatedly rehashing old arguments without new reasoning might strike some editors as being disruptive (see also rehashing). It is OK to disagree with a past consensus, but use reasonable discretion when you want to revisit such issues. If you choose not to back off immediately, it will help if you:
- Listen very carefully: You are trying to get the full and considered views of those who care enough to disagree with your edit. If you do not listen and do not try to find consensus, you are wasting everyone's time. You should not accept "It's policy, live with it."
- Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions, so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.
Discuss on a talk page: Don't assume that a re-revert edit summary can constitute "discussion": There is no way for others to respond without risking an edit war. See also WP:QUO. You can use the article's talk page (preferred) or the editor's user talk page, or invite the editor to the talk page if they insist on using only edit summaries, but one or the other is the proper forum for the discussion component of the BRD cycle.

Bold (again)

Let the other editor apply agreed-upon changes. If they don't want to, that's okay, but be sure to offer. The offer alone shows deference and respect. If that editor accepts, (1) the history will show who made the change and the other editor will have control over the precise wording (keeping you from applying a change different from the one agreed upon). And, (2) such a practice prevents you from falling afoul of the three-revert rule.
Assume this revision will not be the final version. You do not have to get it all done in one edit. If you can find consensus on some parts, make those changes, and let them settle. This will give everyone a new point to build from. Having completed one successful cycle, you may also find it easier to get traction for further changes, or you may find you have reached a reasonable compromise and can stop.

Edit warring

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WP:NOTSTUCK

Do not edit war. Once discussion has begun, restoring one's original edit without taking other users' concerns into account may be seen as disruptive. These so-called "re-reverts" are uncollaborative and could incur sanctions such as a block. The objective is to seek consensus, not force one's own will upon other editors. If you encounter several reverts, it is best not to escalate the situation by reverting again. Instead, try to build consensus through seeking additional input. Several methods for this are listed at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution.
However, don't get stuck on the discussion. Whichever side you happen to be on, try to move the discussion towards consensus by getting pro/con points identified so that a new edit may be attempted as quickly as possible. Feel free to try a new bold edit during the discussion if the new edit reasonably reflects some aspect of the opposing editors' concerns. This approach quickly determines whether the important issues have been resolved; if not, it brings the core sticking points into focus.
- Warning: Repeatedly doing this can easily violate the 3RR policy and get good-faith editors blocked even during a productive editing exchange. Any such edits must be clear attempts to try a modified solution that reflects some aspect of the other editor's remarks. If you have reached three reverts within a 24-hour period (3RR bright-line rule), do not edit that content in any manner that reverts any content, in whole or in part, even as little as a single word, for over 24 hours. Doing so just past the 24-hour period could be seen as gaming the system and sanctions may still be applied.

Additional considerations

Because of the nature of Misplaced Pages, a BRD cycle may begin naturally, without either editor even realizing it. Once begun, its purpose requires that no reversion be counter-reverted. If this happens, something akin to stalling an aircraft happens. If you're not feeling up to it, it might be best to walk away for a while. Unlike the immediate danger of an aircraft plummeting to the ground, Misplaced Pages will be here a long while, so you can always come back later. Otherwise, if you have the energy and the time, use the suggestions on this page to "pull out". Then continue working as per consensus.
BRD is a way of letting you focus on one editor: You cared enough about the page to try to improve it, someone else cared enough to revert your bold change, and you both cared enough to find a compromise through discussion. This is an excellent collaborative style. But there may be other editors interested in that page, so a third editor might revert your compromise, or might revert your next attempt to improve it. If so, that's okay: You can repeat the BRD cycle with that third editor. Just start a new discussion, and find a new compromise.

Alternatives

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WP:BRB

"BOLD, revert, discuss" doesn't work well in all situations. It is ideally suited to disputes that involve only a few people, all of whom are interested in making progress. There are many other options, and some may be more suitable for other situations.

Discuss first

Don't be bold with potentially controversial changes; instead, start a discussion on the talk page first. Make no edits to the page until you have agreement.

Bold, discuss

You do not need to revert an edit before the discussion can start. If you see (or make) a bold edit and you want to talk about it, then you can click on the talk page and start discussing it. You might discover ways to refine it, or you might discover that you're satisfied with the edit as it is.

Bold, discuss, revert

You make a bold edit, then open a discussion. The edit is found to be problematic or lacking, so it is reverted. This sometimes happens when people attempt to make an edit that has severe flaws or problems that cannot be resolved via other methods. If this cycle happens, it might be best for you to step away from the article, and consider the discussion feedback.

Bold, discuss, bold

You make a bold edit, then open a discussion. After the discussion, you or others boldly improve the edit based on the discussion suggestions. This cycle is useful if your edit is helpful, but needs to be improved, and if feedback would be valuable to improving the edit.

Bold, refine

You edit, they edit, you edit again, with each edit improving the prior edit. This is successful, collaborative editing. Keep at it.

Bold, revert, bold again

Don't stop editing, and don't discuss. Make a guess about why the reverter disagreed with you, and try a different edit to see whether that will be accepted. It's often helpful if your next effort is smaller, because that may help you figure out why the other editor objected to your change.

Bold, revert, revert

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WP:BRR

If you genuinely believe the reversion was a mistake you might try speeding things up by reverting the revert, but you should explain why you think the other editor made a mistake in a note or edit summary to reduce the risk of edit warring.

An example of such a mistake is when someone reverts your removal of duplicate material because they didn't realize that the same sentence was on the page twice.
Not an example of such a mistake: A revert with a rationale that you disagree with, or that does not make sense to you. Another case where the re-revert may be necessary is when an incumbent editor reverts without justification in the edit summary, which is a form WP:Status quo stonewalling. But see WP:QUO.
Sometimes bold, revert, revert may function as a form of bold, refine (see above), particularly among editors who already have a positive working relationship. Beware, though: To an outside observer, such "friendly reverts" may not be readily distinguishable from edit-warring, and the three-revert rule still applies.

Let it go

Move on to another article. You might be able to improve a hundred articles in the time that it takes you to discuss this one. Why not move on?

Several dispute resolution processes may also be useful to break a deadlock.