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"verification failed"?

Here's the text from Wilcox that supports the section that somebody deleted:

Although mainstream figures are legitimately concerned with the LaRouche organization, a good number of his harshest detractors come from extremist ranks themselves. A writer who has spent considerable time on LaRouche is John Foster "Chip" Berlet, of Political Research Associates (PRA) in Boston. His articles on LaRouche go back into the 1970s. Berlet is also a veteran of the 1960s student left, and currently serves as the National Lawyers Guild (NLG) representative to the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation. Harvey Klehr confirms:

"The NLG is an affiliate of the Soviet-controlled International Association of Democratic Lawyers (IADL), founded in 1946. Expelled from France in 1949, the IADL is now headquartered in Brussels.Over the years it has supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan.The American Association of Jurists, the regional affiliate of the IADL, is headquartered in Havana.Its president, Ann Fagan Ginger, is a long-time NLG activist." 31

In 1987, when Berlet moved with his organization to Boston from Chicago, the Chicago Area Friends of Albania gave him a special sendoff, noting that, "Chip was one of our founding members, and a steadfast friend of Albania through thick and thin." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 55 Gators (talk • contribs) 15:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

evidence that the National Lawyers Guild "supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan"? There isn't any, because they didn't.

This is synthesis. The source does not say that Berlet was doing anything extremist. It says he was a member of a group, then it says that the group was doing certain things. Which does not mean that Berlet was doing those things. Binksternet (talk) 15:59, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

No, it isn't, Binksternet. The copy that you've twice deleted summarizes the point that George and Wilcox make, though it should probably be reworded for clarity. Whether or not Berlet was actively doing all the things that the NLG and CAFA were doing is irrelevant. He was a member of the organizations which is what the deleted copy states.Badmintonhist (talk) 18:15, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

The deleted copy says that Berlet was a member, and then it tries to implicate Berlet with things that the organization did. This gets Berlet's involvement quite wrong. For instance, the Chicago Area Friends of Albania is a group Berlet co-founded so that he could support the Albanian people, who were going through a rough time. He researched the problem of political repression in Albania through his group contacts. Berlet worked against anti-democratic Stalinists through the group, a fairly centrist stance which is exactly opposite of what your text is trying to imply: that he is an extremist. Binksternet (talk) 06:34, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Binksternet, your beef apparently has more to do with the George/Wilcox "take" on Berlet in the first place than on the editorial summary of that take (though, on second glance, I don't see where George and Wilcox directly call the "Friends of Albania" a Communist front). So your contention here is less about verification or synthesis than it is about the reliability of George/Wilcox. Do you have anything here beyond your own WP:OR with which to impeach George and Wilcox? Badmintonhist (talk) 15:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The material that was deleted doesn't make any particular allegations about the groups that Berlet belonged to, it simply says he was a member. The source says unambiguously that Berlet "comes from extremist ranks." 55 Gators (talk) 15:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Wilcox and George do not describe any activities of Berlet with regard to the groups he has been associated with. They do not say Berlet supported the Soviets (which he did not). They do not say that Berlet was anything but a guy coming from the extreme left:

Although mainstream figures are legitimately concerned with the LaRouche organization, a good number of his harshest detractors come from extremist ranks themselves. A writer who has spent considerable time on LaRouche is John Foster "Chip" Berlet, of Political Research Associates (PRA) in Boston. His articles on LaRouche go back into the 1970s. Berlet is also a veteran of the 1960s student left, and currently serves as the National Lawyers Guild (NLG) representative to the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation.

After that bit, Wilcox and George write further about the NLG, but without mentioning Berlet:

Harvey Klehr confirms: "The NLG is an affiliate of the Soviet-controlled International Association of Democratic Lawyers (IADL), founded in 1946. Expelled from France in 1949, the IADL is now headquartered in Brussels. Over the years it has supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan. The American Association of Jurists, the regional affiliate of the IADL, is headquartered in Havana. Its president, Ann Fagan Ginger, is a long-time NLG activist."

Wilcox and George quote a party invitation which says that Berlet was "a steadfast friend of Albania through thick and thin", which he was—a friend to the Albanian people, not to the repressive Soviet-controlled Albanian government.

Finally, Wilcox and George wind up with a damning indictment of LaRouche groups, saying that the groups have a "primary evil" in "how they treat their opponents and in the vision they maintain of the civil liberties of all Americans. Here the antidemocratic and anti-civil libertarian nature of LaRouche and his followers is manifest, and it is primarily on these grounds that they should be opposed."

Thus we cannot synthesize a position not taken overtly by Wilcox and George. As well, we cannot misrepresent Wilcox and George as being opposed to Berlet rather than being opposed to the LaRouche organization. Binksternet (talk) 16:53, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The fact that Wilcox and George oppose the Larouche cult can certainly be included in a reworked edit but so, OBVIOUSLY, should Berlet's membership in the National Lawyers Guild. That's the primary evidence Wilcox and George present for Berlet being "a guy coming from the extreme left." There's no synthesis here at all. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Klehr is quoted about how the NLG is "an affiliate" of the IADL, with the only stated connection being Ann Fagan Ginger's activism in both the IADL and NLG. Nothing here says the NLG is extremist. In fact, most observers call the NLG liberal, progressive or leftist—a much milder position. Berlet's involvement in the NLG is as a liaison to the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation, a group formed to fight McCarthyism. Wilcox and George leave the reader wondering whether it was Berlet's 1960s activism which deserves the label "extremist", or his later NLG membership. We cannot decide ourselves what makes him "extremist" when it is not clear. Binksternet (talk) 18:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

My re-write was much closer to the source than Binksternet's. And why am I receiving a warning on my personal talk page about "Edit warring" from the guy who has undone every one of my edits? Is that the pot calling the kettle black? 55 Gators (talk) 18:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Those warnings are just Binksternet being Binksternet. As for the substance here, the whole reason for George and Wilcox bringing up Berlet's NLG membership is to demonstrate Berlet's own radical, front-organization roots; as you might put it, Gators, "the pot calling the kettle black." Badmintonhist (talk) 18:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

the description of the National Lawyers Guild and Berlet's connection with it is entirely scurrilous, repeating shopworn lies first circulated by Joseph McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover, whom the NLG opposed. While the NLG certainly defended victims of McCarthyism, including communists, to say that it is or was an arm of the Soviet government is false. Moreover, the assertion that they supported the soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia is pure fabrication. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.243.148.28 (talk) 13:36, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Secondary sources and BLP problems

This article was substantially cleaned up during the spring, but now it's creeping back to being a mirror site for Berlet's own websites. If Berlet said something worth putting in Misplaced Pages, it will also be covered in secondary sources, so people should stop putting in stuff sourced only to Berlet. This is particularly the case for Berlet's accusations against public figures, even LaRouche: BLP policy says If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. 55 Gators (talk) 16:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It is easy to find third party sources that describe the LaRouchites as antisemitic and anti-Jewish, and LaRouche himself an antisemite, a neofascist, a neonazi, and even a "small time Hitler". It is also easy to find third party sources that describe in detail LaRouche's conviction for financial and tax crimes. That I have written about these facts is itself a fact that is easy to document. What is the issue here?Chip.berlet (talk) 17:24, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

As 55 Gators said, third-party sources are needed to establish the notability of your views. If you wrote that your favorite cookies are chocolate chip - well, Misplaced Pages doesn't really care. --NeilN 18:25, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Or more accurately, since this article is about Chip not LaRouche, to show that his views on LaRouche are significant to this article, which I have now done. TFD (talk) 20:13, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that if someone said something, that we should use secondary or tertiary sources that report it, as was done with the mention of Ralph Nader. However the claims made about LaRouche are mentioned in Hate Crimes: A Reference Handbook, pp. 88-89, which is already used as a source in the article. I will therefore restore the text and add this source. TFD (talk) 18:17, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the citation you used was not from the source per se. It is from a bio of Berlet which appears in the preface, a bio which was probably provided by Berlet. 55 Gators (talk) 19:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

A preface "is an introduction to a book...written by the work's author." No idea why you not consider prefaces to have the same reliability as the books. Do you have any policies or guidelines? And who cares where sources get their informaton? We expect writers of reliable sources to use judgment, fact-checking, double-sourcing, etc. We ourselves do not do that, but rely on why reliable sources report. TFD (talk) 21:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

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GangofOne (talk) 22:02, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

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Update Request

Admitted self-serving request warning: https://www.crcpress.com/Trumping-Democracy-From-Reagan-to-the-Alt-Right/Berlet/p/book/9781138212497 I have a new edited collection that was just published. :-) In penance I will go update a few pages that have no connection to me. --Chip.berlet (talk) 15:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

@Chip.berlet: seems to be my week to update bibliographies. I'ved added it to your bibliography article. Doug Weller talk 17:20, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

@Doug Weller 🌹 2607:FB91:D79:3EC:98F1:C7BE:A42A:7384 (talk) 21:11, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Doug Weller Thanks 2607:FB91:D79:3EC:2819:947A:A6EA:3D44 (talk) 21:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

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