| Revision as of 19:49, 19 September 2008 editProphaniti (talk | contribs)4,298 edits →Genre discussion← Previous edit |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|class=GA|listas=Hed Pe| |
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{{WPBiography|class=GA|listas=|needs-photo=yes|priority=Mid|musician-work-group=yes|nested=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|musician-work-group=yes|musician-priority=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject California |importance=mid }} |
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{{Wikiproject Punk music|class=GA|nested=yes}} |
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{{WPRock|class=GA|importance=mid|nested=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Hip hop|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Punk music|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Rock music|importance=mid}} |
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==Article status== |
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The ] is funked up, its not even funny. they repeat so much crap, and really, just read the History Section, ill be working to fix this up from time to time if noone minds. ] (]) 05:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC) |
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===Band name=== |
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What is the actual name of this band? The article uses different forms in different places - sometimes "(Həd) p.e.", sometimes "(həd) P.E.", sometimes "Hed PE", and others. --] 14:13, 7 August 2005 (UTC) |
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On their first album, Church of Realities, it's written as "hәd" on the cover and "(hәd)" on the spine. On the self-titled album it's written "(hәd) pe" on the cover and "(hed) pe" on the spine (I think there's a space in there but I guess that's kind of nitpicky!). On Broke it's written "(hәd) PLANET EARTH" on the cover and on the spine. I don't own Blackout or Only in Amerika, but it looks like Blackout uses the same logo as Broke did, and Only in Amerika uses "HED p.e." On a semi-recent version of their official site it was listed as "HED pe". My personal preferences are either "(hәd) pe" or "HED pe" (space between the hәd and the pe, either all uppercase or all lowercase for the hәd, no periods after the p or the e since they just tacked those on there to differentiate themselves from another band called Head ). ] 17:28, 8 October 2005 (UTC) |
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I think now it is (hed). But I will have them as (hed)pe on my iPod forever ;-) |
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Just FYI for anyone who cares (which is probably nobody), I added the "technical restriction" tag to the top of the article to show that the correct capitalization does not include a capitalized h. While the band has gone by many names, I think everyone can agree that none of them have included the capitalization of the h unless the e and d are also capitalized, which they are not in the page's title. -- ] 18:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC) |
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:If the schwa is a problem, why not move it to ] - the brackets are definitely part of the band name, and Misplaced Pages can handle it, unlike ]]--] (]) 22:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::] also asks us to "avoid using special characters that are not pronounced are included purely for decoration". ]<font color="darkgreen"><small>]</small></font> 04:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Requested move== |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop --> |
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:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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{{{result|The result of the {{{type|proposal}}} was}}} '''PAGE MOVED''' per discussion below. -]<sup>(])</sup> 12:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC) |
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<hr/> |
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] → ] — Per ], we should avoid special characters like the ] in titles, particularly when they are only used for decoration (the schwa here doesn't make a schwa sound). Separately, ] says that trademarks starting with lowercase letters should always be capitalized, and that terms that aren't acronyms should only have their first letters capitalized. The band's record company refers to it as "HED PE", "Hed P.E.", "(hed) p.e." and "Hed PE". I have no strong feelings about including the periods, but it seems clear that the current title is not preferred by the MOS. This change would also affect several other articles: ], ], ], ], and ]. —]<font color="darkgreen"><small>]</small></font> 07:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC) |
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===Survey=== |
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:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since ], please explain your reasons, taking into account ].'' |
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*'''Support''' a move to ] or any of ]'s suggested locations per ] and external link usage which includes and "Hed PE" and "(hed)p.e" (without the schwa) among others. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 01:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. My cogent argument thus: "Hey dude, I got a cool name for our band. We'll call it ] but we'll use these little squiggly characters instead of regular letters." Ugh. ''--] (]) 11:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)'' |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom --> |
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{{Talk:Hed PE/GA1}} |
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== Genre discussion == |
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The majority of sources found in relation to the band and their albums point to ], ] and ] as the main genres for this article's infobox, and punk rock/rap rock for each of the individual albums. ] is not listed on the band or album articles because there are not enough sources to include this supposed genre (did it ever '''''exist''''' before it supposedly ''declined''?) in their oeuvre. (] (]) 10:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)) |
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:Well, I've changed the genres to "alternative rock" and "nu metal", as those are given by rockdetector, a reliable source. If more sources are found, this can be changed around. ] (]) 10:15, 14 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::The majority of the sources that I have found and use in the article cite Hed PE as a punk rock band, and the band itself identifies as such. I don't think that rockdetector is notable enough to add inaccurate genre terms to a punk band's repertoire. (] (]) 16:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)) |
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:::Rockdetector (or musicmight, as it's now known) does count as a reliable source. It's the site of published and respected rock/metal journalist Garry Sharpe-Young. Listening to their music, I can definitely hear nu metal in it much stronger than the punk side: there're hefty ammounts of hip hop and rap in there. There's definitely a hardcore aspect, but then "nu metal" is generally a blending of modern hard rock, hardcore and hip hop/rap, with little to no metal side, so that fits. So, I'll keep it as the cited genres unless other sources can be found that conflict with that. ] (]) 11:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::::The article for Rockdetector does not establish notability beyond the fact that it exists and that its creator happened to have written a couple of books on metal. Additionally, that website has countless mistakes (if you search for the hip hop group ], the genre listed is "industrial") in its band biographies. There's no proof that this author wrote the site's Hed PE biography, and there's no reason to recklessly attribute genres that a band does not perform in, beyond the fact that "nu metal" isn't actually an existing genre of music being that it has been applied to countless bands across various genres with no legitimacy to the term being an actual existing style of music - isn't it illogical that a genre term with the word "metal" in it isn't actually a subgenre of heavy metal? Beyond that, whatever elements you feel that are connected to this supposed genre are actually connected to the ] style. I have done a great deal of research in cleaning up this article. Hed PE are a punk/rapcore group. (] (]) 01:28, 17 September 2008 (UTC)) |
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:::::Nevertheless, it is a website attributed to and run by him. To assume the articles aren't his is original research. As it happens, I don't think "nu metal" is an appropriate term either, because it's got zero metal influence in it. However, if it has to exist, it should at least be consistent, and this band -do- fit the qualities given of the genre, and have a reliable source to back it up. |
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::::::] is the appropriate term for the qualities you hear that you attribute to ]. (] (]) 22:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)) |
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:::::Concerning the site itself, I'll stop using it when the rest of wikipedia stops using allmusic for metal bands/genres: the site makes far fewer mistakes than allmusic on metal bands/genres; Sharpe-Young may have "only written a few books on metal", but by that same logic it still outranks allmusic in reliability; and the section on this band might not have been written by him, but equally, there's nothing whatsoever suggesting anything written on allmusic is done by anyone with knowledge of what they're talking about. So sorry, as long as allmusic counts as any kind of valid source, so too does musicmight. ] (]) 16:39, 17 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::I didn't use Allmusic in sourcing the band's genres. I went by the quantity and quality of the sources used, thus ], ] and ] are mentioned in this article. You still can't use citations in Infoboxes. (] (]) 22:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)) |
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:::::::My reference to allmusic is more due to it's common nature on wikipedia rather than you specifically using it. |
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:::::::You saying the genre is actually rap rock when there is a valid source -very clearly- giving it as nu metal constitutes original research. Likewise, unless you have direct quotes giving their genres as alt. rock, punk rock and rap rock, that too is original research. If you do have those, add them in clearly and properly, and even if then, the nu metal tag is staying. ] (]) 23:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::::First of all, you are not supposed to have citations in the Infobox. Secondly, the genres listed are very clearly sourced. You simply refuse to pay attention to them. Thirdly, the links clearly work. You choose to ignore this fact in order to further your own agenda. Hed PE are not nu metal. Saying so based on what some fan site says is original research. Back off. (] (]) 20:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)) |
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(reset indents) Firstly, I suggest you calm down. Your tone is very clearly angry, and I won't stand for attempts at intimidation when I'm the one abiding by the rules here. |
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If you don't like the citations in the infobox, you can very easily shift them. |
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Now, regarding the main issue: do not make assumptions about what I am doing. No, I am not "simply refusing to pay attention". No, I am not "choosing to ignore facts" because of "my own agenda". My agenda is abiding by wikipedia's rules and improving it thus. -Any- further threats/intimidation attempts/personal attacks like that will be reported and otherwise ignored. |
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Let's take a quick look at the "styles and influences" section, shall we? The "G-punk" references don't mean anything much, since that isn't, to my knowledge, an acknowledged genre. The "fusion of styles" reference is the one that doesn't work: whenever I click it I just get the Naperville Sun "sorry, we can't find what you're looking for" page. Then there's a reference about a band's influence, which can't indicate their genre either (influences by no means equate actual genre. Metallica were influenced by punk bands, doesn't mean they're punk). The Rolling Stone reference can be used of course, but the only genre references it makes are "kind of rap rock" and "rap metal". The rest of that section is quoted from the band itself, and a band's own opinion means nothing. |
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So, overall, no. There's nothing in there to back up the "punk rock" genre at all, and even the rap rock one is a stretch, but acceptable. |
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In fact, it is YOU who aren't paying attention to the sources. Musicmight is not "some fan site". It is, as I have already explained to you, the site of Garry Sharpe-Young, a reliable source. Both he, and his site, have been published. This makes them reliable sources, and much more than "some fan site". |
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So: |
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1.) Get your facts straight. |
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2.) Don't make offensive claims/assumptions |
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3.) Stop removing sourced content |
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4.) Find some sources if you want those other genres kept in. |
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] (]) 21:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
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*"Gangsta punk" is a style of punk rock fused with hip-hop elements, pointing to rapcore. When you search on Misplaced Pages for "rap metal" or "rapcore", what comes up? '''Rap rock'''. And saying that it's a stretch to call Hed PE's music rap rock and punk rock proves that you have never listened to their music in your life. It is fairly clear that '''you''' are angry and need to calm down. You've already violated the ] rule with this nonsense. I am going to report you for repeatedly reverting this article to your petty vandalism. Read the sources used in the article and stop trying to push POV with your insistance that Rockdectector's genre listings are correct when they clearly, to anyone who has actually listened to this band's music, are not. '''YOU''' are the one who needs to get his facts straight. (] (]) 17:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)) |
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:Help yourself to reporting me. You'll find any admin worth his salt will take my side in this, because I'm the one abiding by wikipedia's rules. As it happens I have listened to their music, but whether I have or not is completely besides the point: my feelings or your feelings on the music are meaningless in the face of a reliable source, which is what we have. Thus, I am not the one pushing POV: you are, because it's you who is saying rockdetector's classification is incorrect, not a reliable source saying that. Hence, you are the one in the wrong. And if I have broken the 3RR rule, then so too have you, and the difference is that I am updating the article with a reliable source, something encouraged by wikipedia's rules. What you are doing is removing sourced content. That might not be vandalism, but it's certainly much closer to it than my edits. ] (]) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::First of all, as I have told you repeatedly, '''YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO USE CITATIONS IN ANY INFOBOX!''' Secondly, you are clearly ignoring every source this article uses. Just look at the quote from the band interview. They clearly indentify themselves as a punk band on a rap label (Jive Records). Sources indicate alternative metal, punk rock and rap rock/rap-metal/rapcore as the band's genres. Alternative rock is used per Rockdetector. Nu metal is not used because there are not enough sources to identify this band with this label. Thirdly, I never broke the 3RR rule. You did. Stop adding wrong information to the article and removing correct information! (] (]) 19:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)) |
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:::You don't think that using all caps, bolded, with an exclamation mark is a sign that you need to calm down? |
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:::The citations potentially being in the wrong place is no good reason to remove them entirely. If you feel they're in the wrong place, move them. Nothing more is justified. |
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:::One source is all that is needed, unless you have an equally reliable one that outright denies it. Otherwise, it's not getting removed, sorry. |
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:::No, I haven't ignored sources: I've just been through them all with you. And what a band says about themselves has no bearing on what wikipedia terms them. A band's own statements are not reliable sources. |
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:::Now, as I have asked, calm down, stop making personal attacks, and stop removing perfectly valid content simply because you personally don't like it. ] (]) 19:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC) |
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