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| {{WikiProject Jewish history}} | |||
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| {{oldafdfull|page=Żydokomuna|date=30 March 2006|result='''speedy keep''', incomplete nomination}} | |||
| |text=<big>'''WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES'''</big>{{pb}} | |||
| {{oldafdfull|page=Żydokomuna (2 nomination)|date=27 August 2006|result='''keep'''}} | |||
| ] (22 September 2019):{{pb}} | |||
| {{oldafdfull|page=The Jewish Bolshevism|date=17 October 2007|result='''no consensus'''}} | |||
| "The applied to the article ] are expanded and adapted to cover all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland. Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals, academically focused books by reputable publishers, and/or articles published by reputable institutions. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. Editors repeatedly failing to meet this standard may be topic-banned as an ] action."{{pb}} | |||
| Also see the policy ]. If you are unsure whether your edit is appropriate, discuss it on this talk page first.}} | |||
| {{Contentious topics/talk notice|b|brief}} | |||
| {{ArticleHistory | |||
| |action1=AFD | |||
| |action1date=01:06, 26 April 2006 | |||
| |action1link=Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Żydokomuna | |||
| |action1result=speedy keep | |||
| |action1oldid=47185472 | |||
| |action2=AFD | |||
| |action2date=22:58, 31 August 2006 | |||
| |action2link=Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Żydokomuna (2 nomination) | |||
| |action2result=keep | |||
| |action2oldid=72133089 | |||
| |action3=AFD | |||
| This page was nominated on the Articles for Deletion page, but I closed it as an incomplete nomination, so it should not be considered as either a 'keep' or a 'delete' recommendation from the community. I mention it here to ensure that any future nominations start with a "second nomination" subpage, as described in the AFD documentation. ] 01:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC) | |||
| |action3date=19:02, 26 October 2007 | |||
| |action3link=Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Jewish Bolshevism | |||
| |action3result=no consensus | |||
| |action3oldid=167230094 | |||
| |action4=GAN | |||
| ==Rewording== | |||
| |action4date=17:37, 5 March 2009 | |||
| |action4link=Talk:Żydokomuna/GA1 | |||
| |action4result=listed | |||
| |action4oldid=275205357 | |||
| |currentstatus=GA | |||
| Perhaps we should say a couple words why Jews were attracted to revolutionary movements. ]←]] 03:51, 9 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
| |topic=Social sciences and society | |||
| :As rabbi Soloveitchik said, there are Jews and Jews. `'] ] 23:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
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| * <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Jewish world domination) has been ] before. <!-- {"title":"Jewish world domination","appear":{"revid":229990807,"parentid":229759406,"timestamp":"2008-08-05T14:33:00Z","replaced_anchors":{"'Peak Oil'":"Peak Oil","Arab-Israeli theories":"Arab-Israeli relations","Arab-Fascist Axis":"Arab-fascist axis"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":436608442,"parentid":436606167,"timestamp":"2011-06-28T02:27:00Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} --> | |||
| }} | |||
| {{WikiProject banner shell|class=GA| | |||
| {{WikiProject Jewish history|importance=low}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Poland|importance=low}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Politics|importance=low}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Socialism|importance=low}} | |||
| }} | |||
| == Two articles == | |||
| Is that an attempt at an excuse? By that logic, all opression is justified. While Jews have been persecuted, they are not themselves free of such crimes as well. That would illustrate a "holier-than-thou" mentality, esp. in the light of current events in the Middle East. | |||
| We have two articles about the same ]: | |||
| * Article is antisemitic. For to delete ] 22:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
| **It is not. It does describe an antisemitic sentiment of the time. We have ] article, which does not mean that it is a nazist article to be deleted. `'] ] 23:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *], created in November 2006 by {{u|Altenmann}}, 1,978 words readable prose size. | |||
| == Evolution of the term == | |||
| *], the Polish term for it, created in November 2005 by {{u|Piotrus}}, 4,495 words readable prose size. | |||
| Should they be merged? ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:47, 1 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| I corrected the article to describe the term as it was used through the times, | |||
| :I am leaning towards the view that it may be a good idea. Polish Misplaced Pages does not have an article about Jewish Bolshevism. Only Bulgarian, French and Ukrainian seem to repeat our fork. I think the difference is only in the fact that Żydokomuna is a Polish term and so the article (and sources) focus on how this canard/stereotype is relevant to the Polish context, whereas the Jewish Bolshevism is a wider context. But in order to oppose the merge we would need to find sources that explicitly differentiate between those two topics. If no such sources are found, a merger seems reasonable. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 04:03, 1 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| and not simply its the late 20th abuse. I don't think the estimates and their documentation | |||
| : The problem is most of ] is specific to Poland and doesn't repeat in the more general ], so merging would result in a giant "Jewish Bolshevism in Poland" section within "Jewish Bolshevism". A better option for now would be to expand "Jewish Bolshevism", and possibly rename "Żydokomuna" to "Jewish Bolshevism in Poland". Also see ]. ] (]) 13:56, 1 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| are available online, but the overrepresentation of Jews in the pre-war and early after-war | |||
| Communist government is universally accepted among the mainstream historians. | |||
| Merging two mostly non-overlapping large articles is not a good idea. I see no advantage. - ] ] 02:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| It is also pretty much universally accepted that Jews were more likely to cooperate | |||
| with the Soviets during 1939-1941 occupation than the Polish, but I don't have any hard | |||
| numbers here. For example ] seemed to have some elements of anti-Żydokomuna backlash, as Lenin monument was destroyed during it. It would be nice to write something about that part of the phenomenon too. ] 12:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Also, the title "JB" is misleading. I would consider renaming it into "JB canard". And of course, there was no Jewish Bolshevism in Poland. There was a canard called "Zydokomuna". - ] ] 02:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ==tagged as unverified== | |||
| this article cites no sources for the term or information listed here. Sources need to be added.--] 19:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Peter, I thought you should know better. Per wikipedia spirit, we have to find sources which say these things *are the same*, not vice versa. - ] ] 05:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == What kind of "verification" is needed? == | |||
| Finally, both are antisemitic canards, but they are not the same. Before I present an explanation, here is a quiz for you: what is commmon in the following three terms: feminazi, silicon holocaust and judeo-bolshevism? If nobody answers correctly, I will not be wasting my time here. I am not editing wikipedia actively anymore. - ] ] 05:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| There are countless books on the subject - I have just added a link to one of them published by Columbia University Press. What other information needs sourcing? | |||
| ::Thanks for the ping. ] is right that it would be a better option rename "Żydokomuna" to "Jewish Bolshevism in Poland". ] is right that the title "JB" is misleading, because 'Jewish Bolshevism' is an unfounded myth, conspiracy theory and antisemitic slur. It's also a misnomer, hence my proposal on 4 April for ], which would not contradict our policy on shock quotes in article names. (''Canard'' would be right to include, but unfortunately fewer native speakers of English seem to be familiar with this accurate term than know it's the French word for 'duck'.) ] would work even better than JB in P, because scholars writing about the antisemitic canard in Poland in English refer to it in this way. About a month ago I was persuaded by ] that a merge is not the solution per ] regarding: "a section of an article has a length that is out of proportion to the rest of the article." The only way to make that merge work would be to drastically cut down content on the canard in Poland in order to maintain balance over at JB; per ] we're not meant to rush to destroy sourced content. By the way, for final emphasis bear in mind that unclear to the native English reader, "Żydokomuna" is a racist Polish slur<ref>''Jewish Poland Revisited: Heritage Tourism in Unquiet Places'' | |||
| I had nothing to do with this article until now, and do not participate much in Misplaced Pages, but the criticism of the article as well as attempts to delete it are not genuine as they simply are means to enforce a taboo on the specific subject of active participation of SOME Jews in the Communism movement and oppression that happened even at the risk of alienating their co-citizens. | |||
| By Erica T. Lehrer, p. 189</ref> which Misplaced Pages is perhaps unwittingly hosting, without italics or inverted commas; it would both please and embolden a Polish antisemite to see this. It also propagates the lack of awareness of people who presumably in good faith think it's a fact rather than a misconception, such as ] here . If there really was a 'Jewish alliance with the communists' then per ] (''Bloodlands'' p.140) around 8% of the communists' victims at the ] would not have been Jewish and representative of, the 8% Jewish population of Soviet-occupied Poland 1939-1941. Szymon might be able to adjust in the light of that evidence as it simultaneously challenges another stereotype that he's presumably aware of, if 8% of the men promoted by the Polish Army to officer rank were Jewish in the first place. It's helpful for Misplaced Pages if we can undermine stereotypes not with counter-stereotypes but by undermining binary opposition of adversarial stereotypes that feed each other. Renaming this article for accuracy alone would therefore happen to also have a helpful side effect. Cheers, -] (]) 05:28, 3 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {{reflist}} | |||
| {{u|Altenmann}}, I assume the answer to your riddle is that the terms have no ]. Thank you for your insights here and at the other article, by the way. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:55, 4 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| Whether we like it or not, the events happened, all can be done now is an attempt to collect the views on the subject from both sides of the conflict. | |||
| :Close enough: the evil is in the insinuated connotation. All three terms are supposed to refer to something bad. Why we guess that feminazi is something bad and by implication feminism is bad? - because we know "nazi" is bad. Similarly silicon, i.e condoms, are presented as evil? - holocaust. | |||
| ] 13:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Now, to the topic. Why judeobolshevism is (expected to be perceived as) evil? Because of the Jews. In other words, the "recipients" of the term judeobolshevism are '''already''' supposed to be antisemitic. The message is: Bolshevism is evil because it is run by the Jews. In other words, the term is not so much an antisemitic canard, as an antibolshevik propaganda. Yes it is antisemitic, because it elaborates on the all-encompassing concept of "world zionist cabal", but the specific target is russia with its bolshevism. | |||
| :Book links are fine. I just want to verify the books, then I will remove the tags. My only concern is that this was not sourced at all and ] by ] is absolutely a must for articles.--] 18:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Now from germany to poland. The dislike of russians by poles is well known. Then why not "moskalska komuna" (muscovite communist regime)? Because, i guess poles are russophobes in a lesser degree than they are antisemites. And despite the fact that the hated regime was brought onto them by russians (ok, ussr, but who cares the detail) and controlled from moscow/kremlin, "zydowska komuna" was a stronger insult than "moskalska komuna". Komuna, i.e. polish communist govrrnment was bad because it was run by the jews. Again, antisemitism is a prerequisite, not the goal of the message. | |||
| : I guess, now you see my point, the two articles are about two different notable attempts to capitalize on the canard "jews conspire to rule the world" to speak against something else. Also, in the case of germany tbe target was ideology, while in poland the target was the state (the secret service (UB) especially, and not without the pretext). - ] ] 23:12, 4 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: {{u|Altenmann}}, I appreciate very much your explanations about this, particularly the point that antisemitism is a prerequisite. That point is often not understood. My concern about this article is that it's written as though this was a real thing, or a stereotype just a little exaggerated. And it's used that way in articles. For example, in ]: | |||
| ::{{quote|As a result of these factors they found it easy after 1939 to participate in the Soviet occupation administration in Eastern Poland, and briefly occupied prominent positions in industry, schools, local government, police and other Soviet-installed institutions. The concept of "Judeo-communism" was reinforced during the period of the Soviet occupation (see ]).}} | |||
| == ] == | |||
| ::And in ], it's a "perception": "the Bishop of Lublin, Stefan Wyszyński ... stated that the widespread hostility to Jews was provoked by Jewish backing of Communism (there was a widespread perception that Jews were supportive of Soviet-installed Communist administration in Poland; see ]) ..." | |||
| The result of this AfD discussion was '''keep'''. <span style="border:1px solid #808;padding:1px;">]</span> 22:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I was thinking a merge to ] would help deal with this. As for the length, this article is probably too long because it discusses it as a real thing. For example, see the . ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:07, 5 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == No sources == | |||
| ::: the two cases you quote are examples of one of the typical justifications of antisemitism. I do not know how wikipedia must be fixed to stress this. And yes, the article describes the "real" thing: how it was and how it was perceived, of course with bits and pieces of original reserch and stretching the sources cited. And once again: in poland the issue had nothing to do with ideology, so I dont see how to mix the two, other than under the top-level umbrella "jews are the source of evil". Anyway, I will not take any part here further, because more deep work will require to dig into sources and evaluate them. - ] ] 00:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {{anchor|May 2020}} | |||
| *I'm in favour of keeping the two articles separate per ]; both articles are substantial enough to stand on their own. As far as any potential issues go, it would probably not be solved by merging. --] (]) 00:57, 5 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :I think it is fine because one is about the topic in general and the other is about it specifically in Poland (Zydokomuna translates as Jewish Communism.) If we merged the articles, half of it would be about Jewish Bolshevism in Poland, which would be undue weight. For consistency, we could re-name the article Jewish Bolshevism in Poland. ] (]) 05:10, 5 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| The entire article lacks sources; and presumes that antisemitic ravings have some basis in fact; they do not. Antisemitism is a part of Christian, (and Moslem), theology (and therefore exists in the absence of Jews; and arises because of doubt about the truth of these aforementioned religions, and the need for an enemy to blame who is unable, due to size and resources, to effectively reply). All, or substantially all, of the Jews in Poland were murdered during WWII (in the ]). It is common in backward and superstitious societies, such as Poland, for many to believe outragious fantasies. According to ] most of the Polish peasantry still believes in the ] (see: ''Antisemitism: The Longest Hatred'', Pantheon, 1992). | |||
| :Re-reading the arguments I now lean to the idea that the two topics, while related, deserve separate articles (ZK is a subarticle / subtopic to ZB, per Altenmann's convincing arguments). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 05:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| --] <sup>]</sup> 07:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::You now lean to that idea? That's been your position for years. For example, ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: So why these? ] (]) 12:52, 19 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because a source discussing ] and not Zydokomuna belongs in the JB article, not here, particualrly given the consensus not to merge the two articles? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 02:51, 20 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| == "Żydokomuna" is not antisemitic by definition == | |||
| You claimed that {{tq|this quote is related to the Jewish Bolshesivsm not Zydokomuna (the Polish variant. -FR) - it does not mention this subtopic}} and that {{tq|I don't think his book even uses the term Zydokomuna. And the book is primarily about OUN/UPA (Ukraine), not Poland. Or is Zydokomuna part of Ukrainian culture too?}}. Well, the book is named "Erased: Vanishing Traces of Jewish Galicia in ''Present-day'' Ukraine" (emphasis mine) - ] having been Polish for much of its history, including the interwar and WWII periods. What's more, the book clearly speaks of this phenomenon ''in Poland'' (emphasized bit at the end is was quoted in the article): | |||
| Yes, I agree it's derogative, but it's directed not against Jews as a nation, but against Jewish communists. It is often used by antisemists, who change meaning from "most Communists are Jews" to "Jews support communism", but it's also used by people neutral or even by anticommunistic Jews. ] 11:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * ] wrote in Powściągliwość i Praca (nr 6, 1988 r.) "środowiskiem, z którego pochodzę, jest liberalna żydokomuna." (I'm comming from liberal żydokomuna environnment). Did Adam Michnik use "antisemitic" word to describe his own roots? Surely not, so while most used in negative meaning, the term itself has another, more neutral sense and can be used to describe Jewish communists regardless of their hypothetical or actual position in communist movement. ] 13:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{quote|The experience of suffering and slaughter , combined with the widely held view - strongly encouraged by the German occupiers - that the Jews were the true guilty party in Communist crimes, certainly played a major role in unleashing the widespread murderous pogroms against Jewish populations in Eastern Galicia (and in other parts of eastern Poland)... | |||
| ==POV== | |||
| This article is full of antisemitism and needs to be rewritten. | |||
| * Then rewrite it. ] 00:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| That the myth which propelled these massacres has been revived even in some recent historical debates, such as the one surrounding the mass killing of the Jews in the eastern Polish town of Jedwabne, indicates that this distortion of the past can also serve as a tool for inverting guilt and responsibility. ''As a myth, the talk of Jewish collaboration with the Communists is as fascinating as the older and still potent canard of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. As history, it is simply false.''|source=Omer Bartov, ''Erased'', pp. 38-40}} | |||
| == Confused POV == | |||
| You've misrepresented the source. Please adhere to ] in the future. ] (]) 09:10, 20 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| I don't get it. If you read the beginning of the article, it appears that Żydokomuna is a "conspiracy theory" i.e. something that is not true. However, much of the article reads as if the claim (that Communism was supported by Jews) is true. Thus, the article seems a bit schizophrenic about which stance it is taking. It's OK to present multiple POVs (i.e. that some people say it's true and some people say it's not true) but the article needs to adopt an NPOV stance which views all POVs from a neutral and objective third-party perspective. This article fails to do that. --] 07:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Misrepresent how? We are talking about a specific sentence, which your own edit summary links to the other related article, what is misrepresenting is adding a quote about ] to this article where it clearly belongs to the other. Please adhere to our policies, including UNDUE, and don't add semi-relevant content to the lead (where does the quote - or even the book(!) mentions the term 'Zydokomuna'? Also, while it mentions Jedwabne in passing the entire section of the source is about Ukrainian OUN; are you arguing that this book or even chapter is in-depth or relevant to this topic?). The lead is for the summaries of stuff discussed in the body, not for one's favorite semi-relevant quotes. In general, MoS does not recommend quotes in lead as best practices, anyway. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 02:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| : Read ] - it's not the same as "false theory". ] 16:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :: You've presented this source as if it has nothing to do with Poland, when in fact it has everything to do it. Galicia ''was'' part of Poland. The book clearly talks about Jewish experience and the stereotype of "Judeo-Communism" ''in Poland''. Hence ]. | |||
| :: Not the "same" but close enough. From the ] article... | |||
| :: As for ] - you're arguing that a piece of important background - specifically the statement that "FYI THIS STEREOTYPE IS FALSE!!!" - is undue for the lead of an article about antisemitism? This is not grounded in Policy. ] (]) 08:26, 21 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::As I said, in my view it is you who is clearly misrepresenting this source as relevant and due. Perhaps it's time for an RfC or such. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 09:11, 21 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ==Merge with ]? == | |||
| ::: The term "conspiracy theory" is used by mainstream scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with particular methodological flaws. The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss claims that are alleged by critics to be misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish, irrational, or otherwise unworthy of serious consideration. For example "Conspiracy nut" and "conspiracy theorist" are used as pejorative terms. Some whose theories or speculations are labeled a "conspiracy theory" reject the term as prejudicial. | |||
| Is any reason why this page was not merged with ]? This is ''exactly'' same thing, except that Żydokomuna, as this page correctly tells, is "a Polish language term for "Jewish Bolshevism". Why do we need a separate page for the Polish word when the ''subject'' is exactly the same? There are Polish words for every subject in WP. ] (]) 17:37, 13 June 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :Ups, I missed above. Yes, I can see the argument. ] (]) 17:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::: The term "conspiracy theory" may be a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim. To conspire means "to join in a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act or to use such means to accomplish a lawful end." However, conspiracy theory is also used to indicate a narrative genre that includes a broad selection of (not necessarily related) arguments for the existence of grand conspiracies, any of which might have far-reaching social and political implications if true. | |||
| :Because the English Misplaced Pages is anti-Polish. ] (]) 19:51, 22 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Whether or not a particular conspiracy allegation may be impartially or neutrally labeled a conspiracy theory is subject to some controversy. Conspiracy theory has become a highly charged political term, and the broad critique of 'conspiracy theorists' by academics, politicians, psychologists, and the media cuts across traditional left-right political lines. | |||
| :: The above text is itself schizophrenic and suggests that there is POV pushing within that article. | |||
| :: If this article wants to cast Żydokomuna as a "conspiracy theory", then it needs to say "according to this theory....". If it wants to cast Żydokomuna as being a true concept, then it can do so but the standards for sourcing are higher. | |||
| :: We can have the article assert that Żydokomuna is true and qualify it by saying "but some argue that it is a conspiracy theory". Or, we can assert that it is a conspiracy theory and qualify that by saying "but some argue that it is true". In both cases, proper sourcing will be requireed. | |||
| :: What we should not do is start with one POV and subtly crossover to another without signalling to the reader that there has been a shift in POV. Doing that is just confusing. | |||
| --] 16:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| I don't write in Eghlish good enough to help you... On Polish Misplaced Pages we have two articles: | |||
| * '''Żydokomuna''' about the '''word''' and how it's used | |||
| * '''Jews and communism''' - about facts and concepts related with Jewish part in communist movement, including conspiracy theories. | |||
| Maybe splitting the article is the good step? ] 17:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Unfortunately, I don't read Polish. English Misplaced Pages has an article titled ] which mentions Żydokomuna but the ] article is mostly about Jews and the Russian Revolution and not about Jews and communism in general. | |||
| :Here's what I think we need to know... what factual evidence is there that Polish Jews were more involved in the Communist takeover of Poland than non-Jewish Poles? Can it be shown that they were disproportionately represented in the Polish Communist party? I don't think there is much support for the idea of a "Jewish conspiracy" although there should perhaps be some reference to the use that Nazi propaganda made of that allegation. | |||
| :--] 21:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've just read article after your coorrections and I doubt that Polish version could be better. I don't have access to sources you ask: there are however plenty of sources prooving, that overpresence of Jews among communist leaders was (and still is today) a popular theory. ] 11:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::So the problem is... is Żydokomuna to be treated by Misplaced Pages as fact or "popular theory" that is unsupported by fact? There are some "facts" provided in the article but without sources. Is it possible to list the Jews among the Communist leaders? Also, what is the support for the assertion that Communism had little popular support among Poles? Are there current sources (in the last 10-15 years) that mention Żydokomuna as being current belief rather than past belief? --] 15:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, there are some facts, one can list communist leaders with Jewish nationality, as it's done ni ]. The main problem is ''interpretation'' of these facts :) I'm not expert in this subject, though. Communism is not very popular at all nowdays, so even ''current beliefs'' are more about history than today. EOT for me, my vocabulary seems to be not good enough :) Cheers! ] 17:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I don't know Polish but I presume the list you are talking about is in the section titled "Niektórzy polscy komuniści pochodzenia żydowskiego". Can you translate this section title into English for me? Thanks. --] 14:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It's "Some Polish communists of Jewish origin.".--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==Decline in Jewish influence== | |||
| I think the name of this section is completely inappropriate. It can be seen as justification for this conspiracy theory. Overall state of this article is also very poor. Almost nothing is said about results of this antisemitic myth on lives of Polish Jews - from Pinsk massacre of 1919 to ] to post WW II pogroms in Poland such as ]. ] 14:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :] Write a section about the impact of the myth on Polish Jews. However, if you claim that a pogrom was inspired or influenced by the myth of Jewish communism, you will need to provide citations to reliable sources to establish the linkage. --] 14:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| The ''myths'' were very realistic, when Jewish officers tortured, Jewish lawyers accused and issuded death sentences and Jewish editors printed Marx/Lenin/Stalin's "Collected works". Poles relaced Jews after 1956.] 13:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == This allegation was denied by official sources which claimed that the Ministry of Security employed only one Jewish officer, presumably the head of the Ministry, Jakub Berman == | |||
| Don't write nonsence - | |||
| *Berman wasn't an officer, he was a party supervisor. | |||
| *Many officers were of Jewish origins, 37% according to Szwagrzyk http://pl.indymedia.org/pl/2005/12/17671.shtml] 12:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :I found Szwagrzyk publication independently and added it to the article.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 01:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Origin of the term == | |||
| The text is POV. It doesn't inform what was the ratio of people of Jewish origins in the Communist Party before 1937. | |||
| BTW - the article ] contains some academic informations. ] 12:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Unfortunatly that article is mostly unreferenced.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 01:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Scope == | |||
| I think we should limit this article to discussion of the conspiracy theory/slurr 'Żydokomuna', and the rest should go to ] or even better, to article about ] or something similar. That said, the line can be blurry - as they say, every great lie is based on a grain of truth (as Szwagrzyk, for example, shows in his research on Jews in SB).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 01:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| *Hopefully there will also be an article about ] and even ]. Let's work on it. ] 17:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| **There is an article on ].--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Original research & Antisemitic analysis == | |||
| #This section below consists of Original research, an attempt to explain an Antisemitic ] by showing that Polish Jews were more often Communists than Catholic Jews, or by some similar kind of demographic analysis. | |||
| #Also, there is no Single source given, but statistics are taken from all kinds of source. | |||
| #So why does it matter how many Jew were or were not Communist? The situation is the same. There is no possible place for this kind of analysis - because both are equally inappropriate. | |||
| #Furthermore, a text which tries to explain why Jews were Communists as being relevant to this ethnic slur is ] antisemitic "on its face." Both are ] derrogatory - and any kind analysist of this kind, associated with abusive terms is absolutely improper. It cannot but somehow justify the abuse of Jews and Poles in the same way. | |||
| *Accordingly, the paragraph below should and must be deleted: | |||
| : | |||
| {{Prettyquote|] (KPP) had a very strong power base among the Jews. In Polish court proceedings against communists between 1927 and 1936, 90% accused were Jews. Out of fifteen leaders of KPP central administration in 1936, eight were Jews. Jews constituted 53 percent of the member of the "active members" (''aktyw'') of KPP, 75 percent of its "publication apparatus", 90 percent of the "international department for help to revolutionaries" and 100 percent of the "technical apparatus" of the Home Secretariat. In terms of membership, before its dissolution in 1938, 25 percent of KPP members were Jews; most of urban members of KPP were Jews<ref name="Piotrowski-36-37">{{en icon}} {{cite book | author =] | coauthors = | title =Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces and Genocide... | year =1997 | editor = | pages =p. 36-37 | chapter = | chapterurl = | publisher =McFarland & Company | location = | id =ISBN 0-7864-0371-3 | format = | accessdate = }}</ref> - a significant number when compared to 8.7% of Jewish minority in pre-war ]. Nonetheless research of voting patterns of Poland's parliamentary elections of 1920's has shown that Jewish support for communist parties was proportionally less than their representation of the total population;<ref name="Blobaum">{{cite book| author = Robert Blobaum | title= Antisemitism And Its Opponents In Modern Poland | publisher = Cornell University Press| year =1983 | url = http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0801489695&id=gXisr7fgDjwC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&ots=HPSPnptsOw&dq=zydokomuna&sig=3joDtgo-m6NQriwVofZZ_sp_X30 | isbn = 0-691-11306-8}} p.97</ref> based on the 1928 election data it can be estimated that only 5% of Jews were sympathetic enough to the communist cause to vote for the KPP.<ref name="Piotrowski-36-37"/> In the end while most Jews were not communists nor communist sympathizers, a very significant and quite visible portion of Polish Communists in the interwar period were Jewish. This disproportionately large participation of Jews in communist movement led to the spread of the Żydokomuna myth, which in late 30's was widely used in nationalist ] party propaganda, which was hoping to seize power after the death of ] in 1935.<ref name="Marcus">{{cite book| author = Joseph Marcus | title= The Social and Political History of the Jews in Poland, 1919-1939 | publisher = Walter de Gruyter| year =2003 | url = http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9027932395&id=82ncGA4GuN4C&pg=PA362&lpg=PA362&ots=wlRamGIAQ3&dq=zydokomuna+endeks&sig=oiNo2S0bQl7bW6EUb3edvKEcKXg | isbn =ISBN 9027932395}} p.362</ref>|}} | |||
| :], --] 02:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| *PS:What does any of the above have to do with the Antisemitic slur? | |||
| *How is it that no one has yet realized that it is totally irrelevant to the article? | |||
| *All these statistics are simply designed to '''blame''' Jews for Communism (and to say that Poles were their victims). | |||
| *It is not like asking how many Poles are Republicans or Democrats at all. | |||
| *:], --] 02:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == original research excuses and qualifications == | |||
| The following is wrong: | |||
| {{Prettyquote|The term is similar to the "Judeo-bolshevism" rhetoric of Nazi Germany, wartime Romania and other war-torn countries of Eastern Europe.|}} | |||
| *There is no justification for making excuses for this antisemitism by saying other countries did it too, and it was because things were bad during the war. That's original research that's unacceptable. | |||
| *If there are similar terms in these other countries, why are they not simply listed? | |||
| :], --] 03:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==Interestng reading== | |||
| *, Polish historian August Grabski in Gazeta Wyborcza, 2002.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==Rename?== | |||
| I propose that the article be renamed to ] with a new introductory paragraph, and improved historical background about the vast differences in the political role of Jewish communists in prewar and postwar Poland. --] ] 17:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :For the most part, I agree, although I'd suggest the name ], and I'd suggest splitting the content to the article, as the ''żydokomuna'' slurr is notable - although perhaps it may be merged with something.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::But if that's allowed, how come the following is not allowed at Misplaced Pages ]? --] 18:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::And why not ]? Why must Jews be singled out for such special scrutiny, but not the Polish people? --] 18:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::Putting "Jews" and "Communism" together is an ]. Adding "Poland" to it merely makes it a '''Polish ethnic slur'''. --] 18:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :The role of Polish communists in Poland beginning with the government of ] and the place of ] is already explained under ] and so, there’s no need for yet another fork, as suggested by Ludvikus. However, the significance of the role played by Jewish communists in the history of postwar Poland is undeniable and can best be explained in this article under the condition that all pejorative terms be used only as illustrations of various reactions of the general populace, if at all. --] ] 19:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::OK. | |||
| ::*Since Polish Communists are discussed in Polish History. By analogy, Jewish Communists should be discussed in Jewish Hostory. | |||
| ::*Regarding the ] I note that there's no artificial, Wikipedian, juxtaposition of terms. Accordingly, we do have a real organization called the ]. Any real organization can be discussed and written about. But why create Original Research categories that do not exist outside Misplaced Pages? I don't know how the ] is written about. I doubt they separated themselves into Catholic Poles and Jewish Jews. It may be interesting and informative to look at it. But since there's no such thing as the ] I would object writing about that too. --] 19:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Here I found two (2): ] and the ]. Both are 100% OK to write about. --] 19:40, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::* And here's another OK real organization: ]. a.k.a. ]. --] 19:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Maybe this ] will help make my point better: ], or ], or ]. There is something wrong with these, no? I think that all of these deny the Jews the starus of Polish citizenship. There were 4,000,000 Jews in Poland before Hitler, no? So they must have played some role in Polish history just because there were so many. But why separate them into Communists and Non-Poles. I see no legitimate purpose in that. --] 20:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Finally, studying Jews as Communists in Poland is a part of ]. But it is not ]. Rather, it is merely ]. --] 20:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :I highly disagree with this kind of logic. Studying Polish Jewish participation in the development of communism in Poland '''IS''' an integral part of ] including closely related subject of ]. Denying it is merely ]. --] ] 20:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::I move that the author of this article, ], has an opportunity to further shape the name and structure of this article. While no one has exclusive ownership of an article, he seems to have a great grasp of the subject of Jews in the ]. ] 22:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==The meaning of komuna== | |||
| According to the Dictionary of Polish Language (''Słownik języka polskiego'') by ] the word komuna has a generally accepted official meaning as well as two colloquial ones:<br /><font color=gray> | |||
| ''Lista haseł''<br /> | |||
| ''wyniki od 1 do 2 z 2 znalezionych''<br /> | |||
| '''''komuna ''''' | |||
| ''1. «grupa ludzi żyjących razem na zasadach wspólnoty własności i pracy»''<br /> | |||
| ''2. pot. «komuniści»''<br /> | |||
| ''3. pot. «ustrój komunistyczny»''<br /> | |||
| '''''komuna miejska''' «organizacja samorządowa w miastach średniowiecznej Europy» ''</font><br /> | |||
| Henceforth, in translation komuna could amount to any of the following: 1.a) a ] or 1.b) a ], 2) the ] (slang) or 3) a ] (slang). However, in keeping with the Wiki encyclopaedic format, the only acceptable translation of the article name would be Judeo-Communism. Attempts at trying to be even more precise, while veering away from the official nomenclature would inevitably amount to ]. --] ] 18:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Strange wording about Niemcewicz == | |||
| Did Niemcewicz wrote about "Żydokomuna" in 1817 ? And if so it couldn't have meant what the article describes as Żydokomuna, since at that I don't think Jews weren't associated with communism or that term was in widespread usage. So either he didn't wrote that sentence, or Żydokomuna has different meanings then the introduction says it has ? Of course I could be wrong, but it seems strange to me.--] (]) 04:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :I just changed this portion of text. Niemcewicz was thinking about the French Revolution, not Bolshevism.--] (]) 16:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Światło not relevant? == | |||
| One of the most popularized defections of a Polish Jewish operative: . --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 19:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :How is that relevant to the Żydokomuna conspiracy theory? ] <sup>'']''</sup> 21:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::The story whose main "hero" was an important UB officer of Jewish origin reinforced the popular feeling that high UB officers are Jews... --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 05:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ah, I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as what's wrong with this article. First off--do you have a source that indicates that the story of this particular contributed to the anti-semitic Żydokomuna phenomena? In the absence of a reliable source about Żydokomuna making that connection, surely you see that this is pure ]. | |||
| :::But on to the fundamental problem. Notice that the editor who removed the information (which you had characterized as " very relevant info") removed it with an edit summary that said <blockquote>''Removed a piece which as inserted looks like an attempt of justification of this ugly conspiracy theory. Sources on Z make no such connection''</blockquote> | |||
| :::That summary is exactly correct, and exactly sums up the problem with this article, most of which looks like an ] just such "an attempt of justification of this ugly conspiracy theory." | |||
| :::Compare this article with, eg, the ] article. Should we pepper that article with uncritical factoids illustrating every racist claim made by Nazis or other racists to justify their brutality against Poles? Should we have a delineation of all the Polish actions and qualities that bigots have manipulated in their bigotry against Poles? Complaints about cuisine? Results of intelligence tests? You get the picture. The two articles are like night and day, and this article, as it stands, is hopelessly encumbered with a style, tone and construction that is indeed ""an attempt of justification of this ugly conspiracy theory." ] <sup>'']''</sup> 15:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Piotrowski as a source == | |||
| The dominant citations for this artcile are uncritical references to Tadeusz Piotrowski (1997). ''Poland's Holocaust.'' This is quite problematic; in addition to being a sociologist rather than a historian, Piotrowski is himself essentially a proponent of the Żydokomuna myth. He has no stature as a scholar of Polish Jewry, and is generally a marginal figure on the subject. Such a heavy reliance on his book is quite problematic for an encyclopedia article. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == The evil oppressive Jews made the Poles hate them == | |||
| I've moved the following ] ] to Talk: for further discussion: | |||
| <blockquote> | |||
| Among high-ranking functionaries of the Stalinist organs of oppression (such as the Ministry of State Security, which played a role analogous to the ] in Hitler's Germany), there were such names as ] (born Licht Fleischarb), ], ] (born Dawid Schwartz), ] (born Natan Grunspau-Kikiel), and ] (born Goldberg). Polish communist Wiktor Klosiewicz stated in an interview with Teresa Toranska: ''All the department directors of the Ministry of State Security were Jews''.<ref></ref>. Romkowski and Rozanski were in ] sentenced for 15 years, Fejgin received 12 years, all for brutally torturing incarcerated members of Polish patriotic resistance and for abusing their power<ref></ref>. | |||
| </blockquote> | |||
| It is quite helpful that Misplaced Pages editors have managed to reveal what the true Jew names were of these people, rather than the Polish names they deceitfully appropriated in an attempt to hide their nefarious origins. However, in relation to actual policy, do any of the sources actually mention these people or their actions in relation to Żydokomuna? Also, I note that one of the sources used is, again, that Polish sociologist who cherry-picks anti-Jewish material, and the other one doesn't have a page number. Do we have any ] for any of this? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 00:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Unfortunately, you missed the fact that this is a quotation of ], used by Piotrowski. True Jewish names of these persons are meaningful, as these individuals changed them themselves. Their ethnicity and activities were commonly known in Poland, and as such deepened the whole Zydokomuna myth, and this has to be mentioned in the article. I do not understand why you deleted this part, and please skip these quasi-pleasant remarks. ] (]) 00:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, I understand how important you think it is to show their "true Jewish names", the ones they changed; otherwise someone might not understand what their ethnicity was, and would then fail to make the connection between their horrible "activities" and the ethnicity responsible for them. That said, you have failed to respond on the most important points. a) Do any of the sources relate this material to '''Żydokomuna'''? That is, I remind you, the topic of this article. And b) Do you have any ] for any of this? That, I repeat, does not include the sociologist. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 00:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::I missed the second quotation, it comes from Polish version of Korbonski's book The Jews and the Poles in World War II, here is the link I missed .BTW, the book is available to those interested . ] (]) 00:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Does he mention Żydokomuna in it? If so, where? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 00:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Half of this article's sources do not mention Zydokomuna, so your question is irrelevant. Stefan Korbonski is a reliable source, like it or not, or better ask at ]. ] (]) 01:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::I haven't said anything about Korbonksi. Now that you bring him up, he appears to be a "politician, lawyer, journalist". I don't see historian in that list. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 01:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Sad you haven't said anything about Korbonski, which means you did not even bother yourself to click on the source provided by me and read it. ] (]) 16:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::The concept may and is described using other words; the content is quite relevant to the article and certainly no "original research".--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 01:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::According to whom is the concept "described using other words", and the content "quite relevant to the article"? Please review ] again. Or are you saying Tymek has inserted this material as an ''example'' of Żydokomuna? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 01:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Jayjg, as Tymek suggested below, try to assume some good faith. The informatice paragraph, listing the most (in)famous Jewish security officials in communist Poland, whose (in)fame in contemporary Poland was one of the main foundations of the Żydokomuna myth, is a valuable addition to the article. Removing it, understandable when it was not referenced, now that it is seems too much like IDONTLIKEIT. And if the source doesn't mention "źydokomuna", well, it doesn't change the relevancy - just as an article about American-Soviet tensions may not mention the phrase "Cold War" but be quite relevant to that article.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 14:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::As Jay has indicated, it seems unclear whether you and Tymek are more interested in demonstrating examples of Żydokomuna rather than writing an article about the concept. Contrary to your misrepresentation of the history of the subject, as the article, and numerous scholarly studies show, the Żydokomuna myth ''long predates'' the communist era in Poland, and the scapegoating of Jews for Polish communism is simply one facet of a longer history of Polish antisemitic scapegoating of Jews (eg, scapegoating of Jews for lack of educational opportunities for ethnic Poles, scapegoating Jewish merchants for lack of opportunities for ethnic Polish merchants, scapegoating Jews for lack of patriotism whenever they were caught between Polish and other national conflicts, including Pilsudski's imperial dreams, scapegoating Jews for supposed subversion of the Catholic church, etc etc). So your claim that the existence of Jewish names in the security apparatus being "one of the main foundations of the Żydokomuna myth" once again stands in contrast to scholarly consensus. As usual, you and Tymek are standing reality and history on its head, by trying to place the blame for "źydokomuna" on Jews rather than on the antisemites who propagated the myth. So contrary to your revisionist claim, Piotrus, "the main foundations of the Żydokomuna myth" lies in the ''extended history of elements of Polish society who have consistently attempted to blame Jews for every problem in Polish society''--political, cultural, religious, social, military, economic or whatever. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 16:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Simplified as it is, this is your opinion, and you have the right to express it. At the same time, you are depriving other users from gaining full picture and expressing their opinion of the situation, by removing a valid, sourced and real information. I am presenting history as it was, with real names and real biographies. You are changing it, treating Misplaced Pages as your own battleground. I am hoping somebody neutral will stop by here. And you are wrong - Poles are not obsessed with Jews, unlike you being obsessed with Polish antisemitism. ] (]) 18:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::You've been asked half a dozen times in this discussion to provide reliable sources showing how listing the names of these particular Jews ''is related to the anti-semitic stereotype of Żydokomuna.'' You can complain all you like about it, but the fact is, without reliable sourcing showing the relationship of those names to the subject of this article, you are simply adding original research. It's not complicated. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 20:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Here's : "Mr. Korbanski will never have to deal with the problems raised by the book; he passed away shortly after it was released. How sad that the final work of a man with so much to his credit is a splenetic diatribe, falling at times far below acceptable scholarly standards to the level of gutter literature." | |||
| :Here's a lovely quote from Korbonski himslef: "The ten years of Jewish rule in Poland could not be easily forgotten. It was an era of the midnight knock at the door, arbitrary arrests, torture, and sometimes secret execution. Most of those responsible for that reign of terror left Poland and upon arrival in the West represented themselves as victims of Communism and anti-Semitism—a claim which was readily believed in the West and earned them the full support of their hosts." Jewish rule, huh? ] <sup>'']''</sup> 01:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::And yet the fools of the Vad Yashem awarded him the prestigious medal. And user Jayig, the title of this section, ''The evil oppressive Jews made the Poles hate them'' suggests that you can hardly keep your negative emotions towards the Poles. Hatred is bad, believe me. ] (]) 04:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :I am hoping that some uninvolved person will present their opinion here, as obviously, both my opponents are too emotional and too biased. I guess neither of you understands the title of the article. It is not about oppression, pogroms or Jewish victims. It is about a phenomenon called ''Jewish Communism'' and what this phenomenon looks like when compared to reality. And the reality was that Jews were numerous among most vicious members of the apparatus of repression. Misplaced Pages readers have the right to know this, and to know names of these functionaries. The project is not created for ourselves, but for people around the world. Share your knowledge and create comprehensive encyclopedia, with all known facts presented in a fair way. Removing sourced information is a sad reminder of communist censorship and I will report it. ] (]) 16:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Tymek, please. Why don't you read the opening sentence of the article:<blockquote>''Żydokomuna (Polish for "Judeo-Communism" or "Judeo-Bolshevism") is a pejorative term that has been used to express an antisemitic stereotype that blamed Jews for having advocated, introduced and run Communism in Poland.''</blockquote> The article you think exists, which you descrive as being "about a phenomenon called ''Jewish Communism'', an article which describes evil Jewish "vicious members of the apparatus of repression" resides somewhere else--in the annals of anti-semitic literature. Not in this encyclopedia. I welcome you to "report" whatever and wherever you please. But please keep your uncivil accusations of "communist censorship" to yourself, particularly as a justification of your own attempts to make this entry into a vehicle for anti-semitic libels. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 19:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am requesting content RfC. PS. Note that removal of names has begun earlier: ]. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Światło material was removed for the same reason--it was ] in which no ] was supplied indicating the connection to the subject of this article. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::, for example, begs to differ.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That link is dead. The document's been moved . — ] (] '''·''' ]) 03:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ===Prominent individuals=== | |||
| {{RFChist| section=Prominent individuals!! reason=Should the article mention the most prominent Polish Jews who served in communist secret police and contributed to the propagation of the "żydokomuna" myth? !! time=18:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)}} | |||
| *Including a list of prominent Jewish Communists, in the absence of a source that links them to Żydokomuna, is ]. — ] (] '''·''' ]) 19:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::This article is about stereotype/myth of Judeo-Communism. Including a few names of prominent Jewish Communists is perfectly logical and reasonable here. A reader has the right to be informed about whole spectrum of the problem. ] (]) 21:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::... so long as a reliable source relates them to the subject of the article. Otherwise it's pure ]. — ] (] '''·''' ]) 22:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Many sources note that above average participation of Jews in Polish communist apparatus led to the persistence of the ''żydokomuna'' myth. Various sources give varying level of details on the most famous of them. To censor out links to the most prominent Polish-Jewish communists seems... strange, at least.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::... if the point is that "above average participation of Jews in Polish communist apparatus led to the persistence of the żydokomuna myth", and if there are many sources that can be cited to support it, then they should be cited as saying that. listing a handful of prominent names doesn't support the thesis of "above average participation". if someone wants to assert that the handful of individuals listed led to the persistence of the myth, that's an entirely different point, and it needs to be supported by sources that *explicitly* make that point. otherwise it is indeed ], as i understand it. ] (]) 16:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Piotrus will be hard pressed to find "many sources" which "note that above average participation of Jews in Polish communist apparatus led to the persistence of the ''żydokomuna'' myth." Because he has stood history and those sources on their head. What accounts for the persistence of the zydokomuna myth, obviously, is the persistence of Polish anti-semitism. Indeed, the myth continues to this day, even in a Poland practically devoid of Jews--hence the phenomena of . ] <sup>'']''</sup> 16:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Somehow there is not a myth of ''Ukrainian-komuna'', or ''German-komuna''. Anyway, thank you Sssoul for your opinion, it is far more convincing than whatever Boodlesthecat writes. BTW Boodlesthecat, have you ever been to Poland, since you know so much about attitudes of Poles towards Jews? It is very interesting that so many Jews across centuries decided to settle in antisemitic Poland, not in friendly Sweden or pleasant Italy. Seriously, they must have been blind. ] (]) 18:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Actually 95% of the Jews who survived the Holocaust in Poland left after the war because of Polish anti-semmitism. This isn't the 14th century. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 19:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Got a ref for that? I am sure it wouldn't be an ORish statement, right? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There's a dozen refs for it. When I put it in an article, I will cite it. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 20:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: What I see is removal of citation requests and such.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 20:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Everything that I have added is in the cites given. If you are having trouble reading it (some of the ones you tagged pop up right in your face when you clink the link) put your query on the talk page, rather than deface the article with multiple tags.] <sup>'']''</sup> 20:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Per ] and ], unreferenced sentences can be removed. Reference them, format the refs properly (cite the page), or don't complain if your content is removed with accordance to our policies. By tagging your unreferenced content, I am giving you more consideration than you gave to Tymek few days ago when you .--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 20:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::His content was unreferenced. Mine is fully referenced. If you have a question about a particular fact cited, bring it to talk. I ''seriously advise you to stop your bullying threats to vandalize articles that contain referenced material you dont like''. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 20:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Per ], "The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question." If there is a URL that links directly to the page in question, the reader can find the text that supports the content. While a page number would be ideal, adding a dozen "page number" tags to the article when the sources in question include URLs looks like vandalism. See ]. — ] (] '''·''' ]) 20:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
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Two articles
We have two articles about the same antisemitic canard:
- Jewish Bolshevism, created in November 2006 by Altenmann, 1,978 words readable prose size.
- Żydokomuna, the Polish term for it, created in November 2005 by Piotrus, 4,495 words readable prose size.
Should they be merged? SarahSV 03:47, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- I am leaning towards the view that it may be a good idea. Polish Misplaced Pages does not have an article about Jewish Bolshevism. Only Bulgarian, French and Ukrainian seem to repeat our fork. I think the difference is only in the fact that Żydokomuna is a Polish term and so the article (and sources) focus on how this canard/stereotype is relevant to the Polish context, whereas the Jewish Bolshevism is a wider context. But in order to oppose the merge we would need to find sources that explicitly differentiate between those two topics. If no such sources are found, a merger seems reasonable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:03, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- The problem is most of Żydokomuna is specific to Poland and doesn't repeat in the more general Jewish Bolshevism, so merging would result in a giant "Jewish Bolshevism in Poland" section within "Jewish Bolshevism". A better option for now would be to expand "Jewish Bolshevism", and possibly rename "Żydokomuna" to "Jewish Bolshevism in Poland". Also see Talk:Jewish Bolshevism#Propose WP:MERGE with Zydokomuna. François Robere (talk) 13:56, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Merging two mostly non-overlapping large articles is not a good idea. I see no advantage. - Altenmann >talk 02:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Also, the title "JB" is misleading. I would consider renaming it into "JB canard". And of course, there was no Jewish Bolshevism in Poland. There was a canard called "Zydokomuna". - Altenmann >talk 02:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Peter, I thought you should know better. Per wikipedia spirit, we have to find sources which say these things *are the same*, not vice versa. - Altenmann >talk 05:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Finally, both are antisemitic canards, but they are not the same. Before I present an explanation, here is a quiz for you: what is commmon in the following three terms: feminazi, silicon holocaust and judeo-bolshevism? If nobody answers correctly, I will not be wasting my time here. I am not editing wikipedia actively anymore. - Altenmann >talk 05:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping. François Robere is right that it would be a better option rename "Żydokomuna" to "Jewish Bolshevism in Poland". Altenmann is right that the title "JB" is misleading, because 'Jewish Bolshevism' is an unfounded myth, conspiracy theory and antisemitic slur. It's also a misnomer, hence my proposal on 4 April for 'Jewish Bolshevism' in Poland, which would not contradict our policy on shock quotes in article names. (Canard would be right to include, but unfortunately fewer native speakers of English seem to be familiar with this accurate term than know it's the French word for 'duck'.) 'Jewish Communism' in Poland would work even better than JB in P, because scholars writing about the antisemitic canard in Poland in English refer to it in this way. About a month ago I was persuaded by TFD that a merge is not the solution per WP:SPLIT regarding: "a section of an article has a length that is out of proportion to the rest of the article." The only way to make that merge work would be to drastically cut down content on the canard in Poland in order to maintain balance over at JB; per WP:PRESERVE we're not meant to rush to destroy sourced content. By the way, for final emphasis bear in mind that unclear to the native English reader, "Żydokomuna" is a racist Polish slur which Misplaced Pages is perhaps unwittingly hosting, without italics or inverted commas; it would both please and embolden a Polish antisemite to see this. It also propagates the lack of awareness of people who presumably in good faith think it's a fact rather than a misconception, such as User:Szymon Frank here . If there really was a 'Jewish alliance with the communists' then per Timothy Snyder (Bloodlands p.140) around 8% of the communists' victims at the Katyn Massacre would not have been Jewish and representative of, the 8% Jewish population of Soviet-occupied Poland 1939-1941. Szymon might be able to adjust in the light of that evidence as it simultaneously challenges another stereotype that he's presumably aware of, if 8% of the men promoted by the Polish Army to officer rank were Jewish in the first place. It's helpful for Misplaced Pages if we can undermine stereotypes not with counter-stereotypes but by undermining binary opposition of adversarial stereotypes that feed each other. Renaming this article for accuracy alone would therefore happen to also have a helpful side effect. Cheers, -Chumchum7 (talk) 05:28, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Jewish Poland Revisited: Heritage Tourism in Unquiet Places By Erica T. Lehrer, p. 189
Altenmann, I assume the answer to your riddle is that the terms have no denotation. Thank you for your insights here and at the other article, by the way. SarahSV 21:55, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Close enough: the evil is in the insinuated connotation. All three terms are supposed to refer to something bad. Why we guess that feminazi is something bad and by implication feminism is bad? - because we know "nazi" is bad. Similarly silicon, i.e condoms, are presented as evil? - holocaust.
- Now, to the topic. Why judeobolshevism is (expected to be perceived as) evil? Because of the Jews. In other words, the "recipients" of the term judeobolshevism are already supposed to be antisemitic. The message is: Bolshevism is evil because it is run by the Jews. In other words, the term is not so much an antisemitic canard, as an antibolshevik propaganda. Yes it is antisemitic, because it elaborates on the all-encompassing concept of "world zionist cabal", but the specific target is russia with its bolshevism.
- Now from germany to poland. The dislike of russians by poles is well known. Then why not "moskalska komuna" (muscovite communist regime)? Because, i guess poles are russophobes in a lesser degree than they are antisemites. And despite the fact that the hated regime was brought onto them by russians (ok, ussr, but who cares the detail) and controlled from moscow/kremlin, "zydowska komuna" was a stronger insult than "moskalska komuna". Komuna, i.e. polish communist govrrnment was bad because it was run by the jews. Again, antisemitism is a prerequisite, not the goal of the message.
- I guess, now you see my point, the two articles are about two different notable attempts to capitalize on the canard "jews conspire to rule the world" to speak against something else. Also, in the case of germany tbe target was ideology, while in poland the target was the state (the secret service (UB) especially, and not without the pretext). - Altenmann >talk 23:12, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Altenmann, I appreciate very much your explanations about this, particularly the point that antisemitism is a prerequisite. That point is often not understood. My concern about this article is that it's written as though this was a real thing, or a stereotype just a little exaggerated. And it's used that way in articles. For example, in History of the Jews in Poland:
As a result of these factors they found it easy after 1939 to participate in the Soviet occupation administration in Eastern Poland, and briefly occupied prominent positions in industry, schools, local government, police and other Soviet-installed institutions. The concept of "Judeo-communism" was reinforced during the period of the Soviet occupation (see Żydokomuna).
- And in Kielce pogrom, it's a "perception": "the Bishop of Lublin, Stefan Wyszyński ... stated that the widespread hostility to Jews was provoked by Jewish backing of Communism (there was a widespread perception that Jews were supportive of Soviet-installed Communist administration in Poland; see Żydokomuna) ..."
- I was thinking a merge to Jewish Bolshevism would help deal with this. As for the length, this article is probably too long because it discusses it as a real thing. For example, see the Interbellum section. SarahSV 00:07, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- the two cases you quote are examples of one of the typical justifications of antisemitism. I do not know how wikipedia must be fixed to stress this. And yes, the article describes the "real" thing: how it was and how it was perceived, of course with bits and pieces of original reserch and stretching the sources cited. And once again: in poland the issue had nothing to do with ideology, so I dont see how to mix the two, other than under the top-level umbrella "jews are the source of evil". Anyway, I will not take any part here further, because more deep work will require to dig into sources and evaluate them. - Altenmann >talk 00:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- I was thinking a merge to Jewish Bolshevism would help deal with this. As for the length, this article is probably too long because it discusses it as a real thing. For example, see the Interbellum section. SarahSV 00:07, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm in favour of keeping the two articles separate per WP:SPLIT; both articles are substantial enough to stand on their own. As far as any potential issues go, it would probably not be solved by merging. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:57, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think it is fine because one is about the topic in general and the other is about it specifically in Poland (Zydokomuna translates as Jewish Communism.) If we merged the articles, half of it would be about Jewish Bolshevism in Poland, which would be undue weight. For consistency, we could re-name the article Jewish Bolshevism in Poland. TFD (talk) 05:10, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Re-reading the arguments I now lean to the idea that the two topics, while related, deserve separate articles (ZK is a subarticle / subtopic to ZB, per Altenmann's convincing arguments). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- You now lean to that idea? That's been your position for years. For example, Talk:Żydokomuna/Archive 3#Proposal of merger with Jewish Bolshevism. SarahSV 21:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- So why these? François Robere (talk) 12:52, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because a source discussing Jewish Bolshevism and not Zydokomuna belongs in the JB article, not here, particualrly given the consensus not to merge the two articles? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:51, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
You claimed that this quote is related to the Jewish Bolshesivsm not Zydokomuna (the Polish variant. -FR) - it does not mention this subtopic
and that I don't think his book even uses the term Zydokomuna. And the book is primarily about OUN/UPA (Ukraine), not Poland. Or is Zydokomuna part of Ukrainian culture too?
. Well, the book is named "Erased: Vanishing Traces of Jewish Galicia in Present-day Ukraine" (emphasis mine) - Galicia having been Polish for much of its history, including the interwar and WWII periods. What's more, the book clearly speaks of this phenomenon in Poland (emphasized bit at the end is was quoted in the article):
The experience of suffering and slaughter , combined with the widely held view - strongly encouraged by the German occupiers - that the Jews were the true guilty party in Communist crimes, certainly played a major role in unleashing the widespread murderous pogroms against Jewish populations in Eastern Galicia (and in other parts of eastern Poland)... That the myth which propelled these massacres has been revived even in some recent historical debates, such as the one surrounding the mass killing of the Jews in the eastern Polish town of Jedwabne, indicates that this distortion of the past can also serve as a tool for inverting guilt and responsibility. As a myth, the talk of Jewish collaboration with the Communists is as fascinating as the older and still potent canard of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. As history, it is simply false.
— Omer Bartov, Erased, pp. 38-40
You've misrepresented the source. Please adhere to WP:APL#Article sourcing expectations in the future. François Robere (talk) 09:10, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Misrepresent how? We are talking about a specific sentence, which your own edit summary links to the other related article, what is misrepresenting is adding a quote about Jewish Bolshevism to this article where it clearly belongs to the other. Please adhere to our policies, including UNDUE, and don't add semi-relevant content to the lead (where does the quote - or even the book(!) mentions the term 'Zydokomuna'? Also, while it mentions Jedwabne in passing the entire section of the source is about Ukrainian OUN; are you arguing that this book or even chapter is in-depth or relevant to this topic?). The lead is for the summaries of stuff discussed in the body, not for one's favorite semi-relevant quotes. In general, MoS does not recommend quotes in lead as best practices, anyway. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- You've presented this source as if it has nothing to do with Poland, when in fact it has everything to do it. Galicia was part of Poland. The book clearly talks about Jewish experience and the stereotype of "Judeo-Communism" in Poland. Hence WP:APL#Article sourcing expectations.
- As for WP:DUE - you're arguing that a piece of important background - specifically the statement that "FYI THIS STEREOTYPE IS FALSE!!!" - is undue for the lead of an article about antisemitism? This is not grounded in Policy. François Robere (talk) 08:26, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- As I said, in my view it is you who is clearly misrepresenting this source as relevant and due. Perhaps it's time for an RfC or such. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:11, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Merge with Jewish Bolshevism?
Is any reason why this page was not merged with Jewish Bolshevism? This is exactly same thing, except that Żydokomuna, as this page correctly tells, is "a Polish language term for "Jewish Bolshevism". Why do we need a separate page for the Polish word when the subject is exactly the same? There are Polish words for every subject in WP. My very best wishes (talk) 17:37, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ups, I missed this discussion above. Yes, I can see the argument. My very best wishes (talk) 17:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- Because the English Misplaced Pages is anti-Polish. Noxian16 (talk) 19:51, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
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