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==Archived==
{{Talk header}}
=== White South Africans: Archived===
{{American English}}
Several past discussions on ] about White South Africans and whether the label "African American" would apply to them are now archived at ]. -- ] | ] 06:50, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|vital=yes|1=
===Caribbean/West Indies: Archived===
{{WikiProject African diaspora|importance=Top}}
Several past discussions on ] about people in the West Indies, or about people in the U.S. of African ancestry via the West Indies, including (but not limited to) whether the label "African American" would apply to them are now archived at
{{WikiProject Civil Rights Movement|importance=Top}}
] -- ] | ] 07:48, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Ethnic groups|importance=Top}}
===Crime, punishment, social problems, and bigotry: Archived===
{{WikiProject United States|importance=Top}}
I'm trying to continue to group related topics together. I've archived several past discussions on ], mostly related to crime, punishment, social problems, and bigotry. Lacking a good name, I'm just calling this archive ]—if someone has a name that is both mnemonic and neutral, a move might be in order. -- ] | ] 08:09, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
}}
===Further archive===
{{tmbox|text='''Previous discussions concerning the infobox in the top right corner of the article can be found at ].'''}}
The rest of this seems not to categorize easily. There are a few stray specific questions and answers—usually a paragraph or two—and reams of discussion on whether "African American" is the right term. I've made the arbitrary decision to try to archive the portions of this that haven't had comments added in a few months. I am placing these at ]. -- ] | ] 08:55, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
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... and ], ]. ] | ] 20:56, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
|archiveheader = {{Aan}}
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== Please add back Louisiana Creole French Under Languages ==
== Purpose of this page ==
Why is this talk page on this site? There is no white american talk page, no white talk page, no european american talk page. Makes me sick. sundance 09:21, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)


I noticed it has been removed without explanation and as an LA Creole myself this is an important aspect of AA Heritage and culture that has been wiped from the page. it has been there for a decade and was only removed this year. ] (]) 21:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Gee, poor thing. :( Here's a stomach discomfort bag. Actually, I think you misunderstand. You want a White American or a European American talk page? Then begin an article on ] or ]. ] 05:12, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)


:According to the Wiki, there are only 77 thousand native speakers.
==To be included==
:Even if all of them are African American (which is highly unlikely) it would constitute a very tiny minority of African Americans. It's removal probably has to do with that.
:Inclusions of such minorities of <0.1% for a language, amongst other topics, would clutter the article. ] (]) 02:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
::It was only listed under the languages tab on the side, so the argument of it cluttering the article makes no sense. Also, a Louisiana Creole cuisine is a language of African-American people from people that are of Louisiana Creole Heritage. It seems like you are not very educated on this topic respectfully, but I don’t expect many people to really know about our history as LA Creoles. My reason for saying this was a lack of understanding made apparent to me in your first few sentences when you say you doubt that All of these speakers are African-American, when it is quite literally language of that group, a specific cultural heritage within African-American people. It’s a part of the diversity of AA people based on regional heritage and history.
::By the same logic you’ve used, Gullah Geechee should be removed as well because it’s an incredibly tiny fraction of African-American people based on regional cultural heritage, but it still is a part of it which is why it’s listed. This is why they both were listed side-by-side until February of this year. Again is erasure of the diversity of African-American people. ] (]) 03:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
:::My bad. I got redirected to Louisiana French. This language has only 10,000 speakers according to wiki. Which would probably mean there are over 100 languages with more speakers in the African American community.
:::Unless African American is to mean those largely decendant from United States black slaves imported to the US over 150 years ago, it might reduce speakers above 10k to 50 langauges. That is still a long list.
:::I suppose however that the language having it's genesis among American blacks does merit its mention however. So I suppose I am inclined to support your decision.
:::(Also according to the wiki lede, it has other racial groups speaking it. This seems like a shoehorn but I'm inclined to believe not everyone of these 10k people are black.) ] (]) 21:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
:Done. I think it makes perfect sense. While a majority don't speak it, it's uniquely pertinent to the heritage and cultural history of African Americans. : ) ] (]) 05:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
::I moved the "other languages" to the section in the body, ]. ] has a strong tendency to restrict the contents of the infobox to "Key facts". ] (]) 07:45, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
:::Info box discourse is insane on here ] (]) 08:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC)


==Wiki Education assignment: Black American Music F24==
Notes to self (or anyone else with time to contribute): Noble Drew Ali's Moorish Scientists (religion), Juneteenth (holidays), Congressional Black Caucus (political empowerment), disparities in sentencing & sentencing guidelines--three strikes (issues), fleshing out of Culture to include mention of and links to jazz, rhythm & blues, etc. And subheads!] 08:40, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/University_at_Albany_SUNY/Black_American_Music_F24_(Fall_2024) | assignments = ], ] | start_date = 2024-08-26 | end_date = 2024-12-16 }}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 19:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)</span>
== Wikiproject? ==


Would folks consider a WikiProject on African Americans, Africans, the African Diaspora or an umbrella topic of all of these?


== Change title to Black Americans? ==
It would provide a venue for discussion, categorizing, provide suggested structure and format, and give direction to the creation and revision of articles.


Since this post is talking about Black Americans, to the exclusion of North Africans, should the title not be Black Americans? ] (]) 18:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
It works very well for some Misplaced Pages categories; seems to me this is a good candidate for one. ] 20:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


:] applies. African American is far more popular than Black American based on Ngrams search. ] (]) 05:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
:Considering the kind of ill-informed, naive, silly or just plain racist crap one has to wade through on Misplaced Pages when dealing with issues pertaining to black people and the aparently relatively few contributors with real knowledge and sensitivity on the subject, I think you'd better leave well enough alone. ] 18:56, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:This debate happens so often it's not even funny. I have no idea why but it won't go away. ] (]) 23:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)


== Francisco Menéndez, Fort Mose ==
::Remember Matthew 7:1-5 before you go waving the "racism" flag. Blacks can be just as racist as Whites (if not moreso, from my experience), and this article does indeed seem to be biased. An article should be written from more than one perspective, not just from a pro-Black or pro-White (or pro-Eskimo) persepective, and i dont see why there should be any objection to a "wikiproject". ] 19:27, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)


The ] model of identity and representation has been historically characterized by its multi-faceted nature, which transcends strict racial categorizations. Numerous figures exemplify this complexity, including ], ], ] ] that established the first commercial ] in the Americas,<ref>{{Cite web |title=Review {{!}} February 2012: 1493 by Charles Mann '76 {{!}} Amherst College |url=https://www.amherst.edu/alumni/learn/amherstreads/pastfeatures/2012-features/1493/review |access-date=2024-10-28 |website=www.amherst.edu}}</ref> ], ] in Florida, Juan de Villanueva, ], Juan Beltrán, Pedro Fulupo, Juan Bardales, Antonio Pérez, Gómez de León, Leonor Galiano, ] and Juan García. Additionally, ] stands out as a significant figure in this discourse; he is recognized as the first black African to attend a European university, ultimately achieving the status of professor. This highlights the notion that the ] identity is not monolithic and is instead enriched by diverse contributions across racial and ethnic lines. Such examples serve to challenge simplistic perceptions of race within the historical narrative of Hispanic culture. ] (]) 18:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
:Actually, we have a disagreement there. "Bigoted"? Yes, unfortunately. "Racist," very rarely. But that's another discussion. Again, if there are instances of bias, then raise them, discuss them, fix them. Some nebulous, blanket allegation of "bias" means absolutely nothing. Further, after visiting your page, the fact that you readily characterize yourself as "anti-Muslim" doesn't provide too much in the way of positive expectation that you would know bias if it bit you on the rump. :-p ] 19:53, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)


== Racial or ethnic group ? ==
I think a Wikiproject is a great idea; this is an area that needs a lot of attention, and a good community to steer it in the right direction. - ] 02:31, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)


Until recently, the lead sentence had "are an ethnic group". Now, it's "racial group". I just reverted an addition claiming that African American normally refers to the ethnic group, Black Americans to the racial group. Any thoughts ? ] (]) 06:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:Thanks for your comments, Sekicho, here and above. I did look at ] and this seems to be the way Misplaced Pages is handling country articles. I had in mind ] when I suggested this, and ] follows the same pattern. Of course, ethnicities in the U.S. aren't the same as countries, but I thought that a WikiProject here could serve as a model. I have no idea how many people there are at Misplaced Pages who are interested in or would get involved with organizing a project on African American issues; this remains to be seen. There don't seem to be dozens jumping on the bandwagon thus far! One good thing would be that if a core got together to organize and write, support in the way of editing and formatting would come from all over the Misplaced Pages. ] 21:10, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
== west africa ==


:Should be more clear about ethnicity vs racial identification (as its clear its not clear to all). As of now we have an odd round about lead that takes a whole paragraph to say something simple.....just say ''Generally, the term ] denotes a racial identification, while ] American refers to an ethnicity, specifically Americans with ancestry from one or more of the African continent's Black racial groups'' <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
do african americans know much about african culture? I have a Nigerian friend and she says african americans are so different from their roots that to call them "west african" culturally would be an insult. Do they actually speak bantu, swahili, or any of the african languages? Or is it all made up, like the juneteenth holiday instead of christmas. She said african americans have more in common with people from southern states than with people actually from africa. She said dressing up in colorful tribal clothing and headbands is an insult to african heritage. She's from africa so I'm not really sure how african americans would make any of this.
::But what do we do with the first sentence ? ] (]) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:::“African American,”refers to people in the United States who self identity as having origins from ]. Generally, the term Black denotes a racial identification, while African American refers to an ethnicity, specifically Americans with ancestry from one or more of the African continent's Black racial groups. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 08:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
::That’s not an ethnicity. It’s a grouping because Africans have so many different ethnic groups so just “Americans with ancestry from the continent of Africa” would not be an ethnic group. Ethnic Black Americans are the Black Americans that share ancestry through chattel slavery and that is distinctive culture and people this Misplaced Pages page is trying to capture. An African immigrant wouldn’t be an ethnic Black American they’d be -American such as “Nigerian Americans” “Ghanaian Americans” and we already have Misplaced Pages pages for them. ] (]) 13:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:We should say it's both a racial and an ethnic group. Both are mentioned and supported in the lead and body. ] (] / ]) 13:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
::I tried "racial or ethnic group" because the word "or" is as ambiguous as the problem itself. I also used Moxy's idea of self identification. But as I read the style guide, it is not clear whether "Black" and "African American" can be clearly distinguished. Just a try, feel free to comment and / or improve. ] (]) 16:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:::African-American is strictly an American term. No other Nation uses it and this should be made clear. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 20:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
{{Ping|Nampa DC}} You changed it back to "ethnic group", although at least three editors seem to prefer "racial group" or "ethnic or racial group". Could you please explain ? ] (]) 18:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)


== Immigrants ==
:Though entitled to her own opinion, your friend is tragically, abysmally ignorant. I'm not certain who "them" refers to ("...that to call ''them'' 'est frican' culturally would be an insult."). Presumably, you're referring to our roots -- which most definitely are in West and Sub-Saharan Africa. There can be no debate on this point; Africa is where our ancestors originated. In claiming our African heritage, we are simply saying, "We are an African people"; we are ''of'' Africa.


The article reads, "While some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify as African American, the majority of first-generation immigrants do not, preferring to identify with their nation of origin."
:Frankly, your "friend"'s uninformed opinions on the matter are not terribly important to me as an African-American; we are who we are. And we can dress as we choose. I mean, ''really''. Consider the fact that a hell of a lot more Africans wear Western clothing than African-Americans wear African-inspired attire. Further, your "friend" needs to get a clue and educate herself about African-American culture. Many Africans who are familiar with it readily see many similarities in our cultural traditions. Perhaps you should direct your friend to read some of the articles on Misplaced Pages which treat African-American culture: ], ], ], for example -- and then challenge her to repeat the same ignorant opinions (which to me sound colored by resentments/biases, rather than informed by concrete knowledge). ] 06:29, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)


However, the citations listed do not support this statement and one source actually say the opposite:
:And, no. I would venture to say that many African-Americans probably don't know much about African culture(s) -- probably about as much as anyone might know about a continent about which they've learned only vicariously and whose ancestors left that continent's shores centuries before.


"However, as the number of African and Caribbean blacks immigrating to the USA has increased, so have the chances that someone who identifies as black or African American is a first- or second-generation immigrant."
:One correction of a misapprehension implicit in one of your comments: ] is a celebration of ] that originated in Texas and Louisiana, and is celebrated -- as the name clearly suggests -- in June. The December, week-long, African-American holiday celebrated immediately after Christmas is ]. ] 14:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
-Who is an ‘African American’? Definition evolves as USA does
Tracy Scott Forson
USA TODAY NETWORK 2018 ] (]) 07:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)


== Have a question .... ==
That's why I prefer Black American because were aren't Africans. The African was bled out of us centuries ago. Your friends assinine and contemptuous comments show the schism that exist in the African diaspora. We are our own people with our own culture and our own history. Yes we have more in common with white Southerners because that is where the majority of our ancestors lived in bondage and developed thereafter. We have no ties with Africa other than our forefathers originated from Africa and don't need or desire any connection with a forsaken land that only have ill will for the most prosperous and affluence branch of the diaspora.
Eurytus


Please help me . As far as I understand "African Americans(AA)" means those "Americans(Citizens of USA)" who had or whose parents had either African citizenship ,or ancestry . Then why make AA= Black Americans(BA)? The term AA is ethnic ?or based on skin?colour or based on ancestry ?
Repeating the same ill-informed opinion citing the ignorance of otherss doesn't make your comments any less wrong. It sounds like you, too, could benefit from a reading of some of the articles treating African-American culture on this website. ] 05:36, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)


There are "black skin colour people" outside Africa too .
The article I think is inaccurate in stating "African-American culture is an amalgam of influences, the ''most persistent of which has been the cultural imprint of Africa''." There may me traces of African culture remaining but the fact is, Africans brought to America often spoke different languages and were not taught to write. Because of this it was incredibly difficult to maintain their African culture (which I'm not sure there is an 'African' culture anyway, there is a bantu culture, swahili culture and shona culture for sure, but often the Africans brought to America had little in common anyway) especially when you're a slave more concerned with surviving and not getting beaten than preserving a cultural heritage. I'm not saying African Americans don't have a distinct culture, they clearly do as someone else has made a list of African-''American'' cultural achievements, however the current line in the article is an overstatement if not outright false.
So when we say AA why BA is automatically assumed. Example: "IF" a white south african citizen become usa citizen he will be AA but not BA . Similarly those from other continent who fortunately or unfortunately have black skin colour will be BA once become USA citizen even if they are not AA . ] (]) 13:41, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
--] 14:58, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


:Hi @]. My understanding of the term African American, refers to decendants of enslaved people. Beyond that, I'm not sure. In UK it's generally Black British. This is because we have black people who originated from all over the world, especially the British colonies. I'm unsure what Americans use for white South Africans? ] (]) 14:34, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
'''No.''' The statement is completely correct as I carefully crafted it. Read it again. To speak of the "cultural imprint of Africa" is not to speak of a ''singular'' culture. Secondly, "persistent" is defined variously as:
::Yeah that's the problem.

::No disrespect to history of USA or its people or their struggles but the term AA and BA being used as interchangeable, which "I" believe is kinda dumb , you can't equal racial and ethnic optics , those are separate things or so I believe . ] (]) 21:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
'''Main Entry: per·sis·tent'''
Pronunciation: -t&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin persistent-, persistens, present participle of persistere
Date: 1826
*1 : existing for a long or longer than usual time or continuously: as '''a''' : retained beyond the usual period <a persistent leaf> '''b''' : continuing without change in function or structure <persistent gills> '''c''' : effective in the open for an appreciable time usually through slow volatilizing <mustard gas is persistent> '''d''' : degraded only slowly by the environment <persistent pesticides> '''e''' : remaining infective for a relatively long time in a vector after an initial period of incubation <persistent viruses>
*2 '''a''' : continuing or inclined to persist in a course '''b''' : continuing to exist in spite of interference or treatment <a persistent cough>
per·sis·tent·ly adverb

Certainly, the word clearly applies to the imprint of African culture on Africans in the New World, which has ''persisted'' through the centuries, despite concerted attempts to obliterate it. ] 17:57, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, that may be accurate. But in that case, I think it is misleading. It gives the impression that the biggest contributor to African culture is indegenous African culture. Which I would strongly dispute. I would support keeping the statement, but perhaps rewording it so as not to overemphasize things.
--] 22:07, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

== This talk page ==

I recently, and with great difficulty, cleaned up this talk page. About 2/3 of the sections were duplicated, in whole or in part, in no terribly obvious pattern. I some cases, one of the two versions of a section contained remarks not in the other. I've tried hard to preserve everything. Sincere apologies if anything got removed in the process, feel free to restore it. And I'm sure that the sections are no longer all in chronological order, but I'm pretty sure they haven't been in some time.

Anyway, it would be appreciated if someone would archive some of this. It might make sense to do archive a page just on the discussions of (1) whether ''African American'' is the most appropriate term and (2) whether recent white South African immigrants, Ethiopian immigrants, etc. are African American. Then when, inevitably, someone asks these questions again, we would have a single archive page to refer them to for the exhaustive, exhausting discussion. -- ] | ] 04:29, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
:Yes, I was going to suggest an archive; you beat me to it. I don't know how to do it myself. I think a note at the top of the TALK page indicating what the consensus is and where the archived discussions can be found would do wonders.
:I also think it would be good to start this TALK page afresh from and request that people ''sign and date'' their comments and use indenting, to keep that type of chaos from happening again. Your cleanup efforts are appreciated.
:] 23:00, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
::I've been archiving (tediously: once pages get this big, Firefox chokes); I'm pretty far along. As for keeping the talk page clean: no notices will ever do that, but people should feel free (for example) to add a pseudo sig ("anon" plus a date) to newly added anonymous remarks, add a new section heading when the topic changes, etc. -- ] | ] 05:32, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

Kudos to ya, darlin', for a job well done. If I had a medal, I'd definitely award it to you -- and it wouldn't be a rusty ol' barn star, either. Somethin' wit' bling. :) ] 18:04, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

==Give this man a medal==

I've seen barn stars and all sorts of virtual hardware being awarded around this site to this or that Wikipedian for this and that thing. The archiving of this talk page is quite an effort. (((Somebody!))) Give this man (]) a medal! ] 05:47, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== racial profiling ==


Racial profiling needs a citation -- a line in there says afr.americans are more likely to be pulled over based on race alone. Without a citation I'm removing it.--] 20:45, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* "Racially Biased Policing: Determinants of Citizen Perceptions", by Ronald Weitzer and Steven Tuch, George Washington University, Washington, DC, published 2004 based on a survey conducted December 2002, estimates that 47% of victims of racial profiling are African American. I don't have access to the original, but it is cited online at in a document from ]. Will that do, and if not, what exactly are you looking for by way of citation? -- ] | ] June 29, 2005 01:05 (UTC)

* Those numbers are based on an "opinion poll" (the questions asked are not available). It also defines racial profiling as "....the targeting of individuals and groups by law enforcement officials, even partially, on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, or religion, except where there is trustworthy information, relevant to the locality and timeframe, that links persons belonging to one of the aforementioned groups to an identified criminal incident or scheme." The statement you keep reverting says they are stopped due to race alone, not partially. The poll respondants also presumably have no way of knowing why they were stopped by police. A police officer will not pull you over and say "do you know why I'm stopping you? because you're <some ethnicity>" If you want to insert qualifications stating that a disproporionate # of african-americans believe they've been stopped due, in part, to their ethnicity, it is fine with me, but as it is the foundations don't support the strength of the statement. --] 29 June 2005 22:35 (UTC)

Common knowledge. There's more, but I won't waste my time. If you ''really'' want to know the truth, rather than are simply interested in reverting completely accurate text, then you'll search online yourself. I'm restoring the text. Again. *x* ] 30 June 2005 02:47 (UTC)

* The phenomenon of racial profiling has been reported on widely, but it is not common knowledge that people are pulled over on the basis of race alone. If it were I think you'd have an easier time showing some real numbers. Your link says that 12% of "blacks" and 10% of whites were pulled over in 1999. That additional TWO PERCENT could have been pulled over due to race alone, but there is no evidence of that whatsoever in the article other than the initial anecdote. My guess is that the cops have some excuse, however lame, to pull over almost all of those people: tail-light out, expired tabs, tinted windows, mud on a license plates, 26 in a 25mph zone, etc. It is also entirely possible that there is some other bias responsible for the 12% vs 10% difference. African Americans tend to live in urban settings, where there are more police to hassle everyone. If you want to adjust the statement to say that in 1999, 12% of blacks and 10% of whites were pulled over, but the statement that black folks are puled over for race ALONE remains unjustified. I did google for racial profiling statistics and didn't find anything to back up the statement and, anyway, if someone points out a possible unjustified statement in a page, the onus is on the creator/maintainer to prove it. Reverting, again. --] 30 June 2005 15:24 (UTC)
**You have not indicated what you would consider acceptable for a citation. And I don't see anything in the sentence you deleted that is specific to being "pulled over" while driving. The sentence you removed said "They are more likely to be stopped by police simply because of their ethnicity." A "stop" is the initial contact by police that can, potentially, lead to an arrest; it is not limited to a "traffic stop". -- ] | ] July 1, 2005 06:52 (UTC)

== Nomenclature section ==

There have been several recent edits to the "nomenclature" section. Some of them are probably OK, others seem wrong to me. No need to discuss what seems right; here are my issues:

* "The term African American has only been used in popular speech since the late eighties&hellip;" - I presume this is the 1980s (Jesse Jackson, mentioned later in the sentence) wasn't around in the 1880s), but I don't think it's true. I'm pretty sure I remember hearing it used quite a bit as early as about 1970, although I'll say quite honestly that I can't remember when it became more common to hear "African American" than "Afro-American". Anyway, it's ''very'' hard to document popular speech as against printed usage or even recorded speech. I'm not sure how one could ever verify this, unless it's with survey data on preferred terms. While I suspect that one could find a survey on ''the most preferred'' term to refer to an ethnic or racial group, it's probably very hard to find such data on what others have made it into popular speech. If we want to talk about when it came into usage, I suggest that we should stick to what can be documented.
* "&hellip;as well-known figures like Jesse Jackson pressed for the adoption of a term that was more meaningful than an inaccurate color and also had some cultural connotations, like the popular ethnic labels ] or ]..." Is there any evidence of Jesse Jackson specifically pushing this particular usage? I don't particularly recall him doing so in any way more systematic than simpy using it. "&hellip;had some cultural connotations&hellip;" seems vague and unverifiable. (The analogy to "Irish-American", "Polish-American", etc. is undoubtedly part of what made the term stick, but again it would be good to find some citation for that, as well.)
* "''African American'' has been criticized because of its imprecise cultural and geographic meaning." "&hellip;has been criticized&hellip;" are definitely weasel words. Either we can cite some criticism (and it would be very relevant from what quarter that criticism came: very different if it came from a Black Nationalist or a Midwestern Republican white guy).
* "The term ''African American'' as originally advocated&hellip;": "advocated"? By whom? The issue isn't how the term was ''advocated'', it's how it is ''used'', and, indeed, it "refers to only those descended from a small number of black colonial ] and the estimated 10 to 11 million Africans who arrived in the U.S. as ]," etc. I think the phrase ''as originally advocated'' is a liability here.

] | ] 06:26, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

== Getting this article featured. ==

This article is almost ready to be nominated as a ]. The three things I see it needing before then are
#A longer and more detailed list of references and external links
#More images
#A longer introductory paragraph that sums up the major points of the article.

If we get these done, I'd say it's ready. &ndash; ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:17, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
Comment:

To my knowledge, the term african-american originated around the time of the founding of the organization of african american unity, established by malcolm x, el hajj malik el shabazz.
according to his own words, the organization was to be patterned letter to letter, from the organization of african unity.
now when the oaau was established in 1964, the term afican american american denoted a political term, including all dscendants of african slaves broght to the new world, including northern, central, southern america, as well as the carribean.
even to this day certain africans of a more clarified political thought consider the term african american to represent this more inclusive definition.

i have never came across this particular page in wikipedia speaking on the topics of african-americans, the african diaspora, or the Maafa (swahili term for great tragedy, to describe slave trade that brought africans to america; many african-americans reer to themselves as survivors of the maafa.)

i think that asides from mentioning jesse jackson as the individual popularizing the term,'african american', (a grave historical error indeed), the article is educational,fair,and quite good.

references include: malcolm x speaks, any works on the maafa (especially from the afrocentric school of molefi asante), and the all african peoples revolutionary (one of their economists wrote a whole geopolitical piece on the term african american)

for fairness and objectivity i include the following comments.
if you think these comments are helpful to finalizing the article, very well(i could more accurately give citations if you email me at eastside360@yahoo.com)

otherwise forgive me taking up your time.

sincerely,
ramal lamar

== gymnastics ==

''The term does not include white, Indian or Arab immigrants from the African continent, and they are not considered Africans on the continent.''
:Boy, it's fascinating to watch the convoluted mental gymnastics invoked to justify the common usage of this term. As the statement stands, it is patently false. (An "African", by several dictionary definitions, is simply a "native or inhabitant of Africa".) I believe what you mean to say is that they are not considered to be ''indigenous'' Africans. '''But, by the same logic, it would be wrong for African Americans to consider themselves to be ''American'', because they are not, after all, ''indigenous'' to North America.''' And of course, there are ''indigenous'' Africans who are not "black" (e.g. Berbers), so their specific excision from what is considered "African" only reveals the political intent. You can't have your indigenous cake and eat it, too. ] 19:00, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
::At the risk of feeding a troll: usage of a term is not necessarily identical to its etymology. As far as I can tell, the "gymnastics" are here because a bunch of either dense, condescending, or outright racist white people wish to deny African Americans the right to determine their own designation, so it's been impossible to keep this simple. This is just like the fact that "Lithuanian American" doesn't include me as a descendant of Lithuanian Jews, and "Norwegian American" doesn't include my cousin who happens to have been born in Norway while her parents were there on her dad's Fulbright scholarship. -- ] | ] 06:16, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

== Nomenclature ==

'The term does not include white , Indian , or Arab immigrants from the African continent , ''and they are not considered Africans on the continent'' .'

What is the evidence for this statement?

These people are all considered as Africans in the demographics section of the Misplaced Pages article on Africa. Misplaced Pages is , therefore ,contradicting itself.

Morocco , Algeria , Tunisia , Libya , and Egypt are all African nations with Arabic populations . More than one hundred million North Africans are denied being recognised as Africans by whom?

The use of the term African American seems to be restricted to people of West African origin . Perhaps the term West-African American would be more appropriate . As it stands , the term African American is promoting ignorance of the ethnic diversity of the African continent.

--] 11:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)ian29cent

: We are writing an encyclopedia, not a manifesto. We are not here to judge what would be better terminology. We are here to describe the terminology actually used in the world. -- ] | ] 16:01, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

===Separate note===
<blockquote>''There is also a new term, "Afrimerican", created by an Afrimerican, and introduced in 1989 in reaction to the various terms, and levels of ambiguity of terms used to describe and define the race/ethnic group, and it is gaining acceptance, popularity, and more widespread use among Negroid and non-Negroid people in America, Germany, and other countries.''</blockquote>
Just saw this added by an anon under "Nomenclature." My question is "huh?"

{{User:Jndrline/sig}}18:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

* Not the first time this has appeared, presumably the same anon. As I said whe reverting it about 10 days ago, "The less than 700 Google hits on "Afrimerican" (about half to a musical group) cast enormous doubt on the claim that any significant number of "African-American people... are adopting a new term..." -- ] | ] 04:46, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

== Large removal ==

removed quite a bit of material, mostly about mixed race people. I'm not entirely sure of the merits of the material that was removed, so I'm not restoring, but others may want to look more closely. Among the material removed was quite a bit about Native American ancestry and a passage about "passing for white". -- ] | ] 15:57, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

== My definition of African -American ==

African American: A person born in America who's indigenous ethnic origins are in Africa, I believe that this definition is appropriate since i dont know specifically what area in Africa my ancestors are from ,due to the fact that poor records were kept of the enslaved african people,though i do believe that I am part KHWE or "bushmen",do to my physical features of course today there are methods to genetically test specifically what area of the world your peoples originate (which i plan to take,then i can say im KHWE as opposed to just african)now if u have a white person who can take one of these test and the results and say the majority of their genetic material points toward african heritage and theyre born in america, then by all means you are an african - american, however if u move a polish community to the heart of the congo and they breed only with the polish there for 400 yrs there is no way in hell they would ever become indigenous africans! i mean what line of logic would lead anyone to believe such rediculous tripe?! black people in america are of african origin, as much as an irish american proudly displays their heritage and italians and welsh or chinese we also as african people are proud of our origins and history,why wouldnt we be ?we are the oldest people,discovered fire,created art,language,religion,and tools, we colonized europe, asia, and the americas and cultivated humanity IN AFRICA for the first 225000 yrs of the 275000 years modern man has existed on earth. So why would i want to be fool enough and deny my proud african heritage,or my american heritage for that matter? maybe a better question is why would anyone want me to deny my heritage? {{unsigned|24.18.38.73|31 Aug 2005}}

== Ancestry ==

Recently removed, with a complaint about lack of citation, but with the comment "I believe you.": "Virtually all of them also have some ] ancestry, and/or ] ancestry."

Usually, if you think a statement is accurate but uncited, you don't start by deleting. You ask for citation, or look for it yourself.

, from www.ancestrybydna.com, asserts that "the average African American has considerable European ancestry (actually, it’s 19.6%)", which tends to suggest that the comment was not way off base.

Does someone else have something more solid on this? -- ] | ] 07:54, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

: This doesn't need an obscure citation, and there won't be a mainstream one for a while. I do believe you, but to believe is not to claim for fact. (Tee-hee, but ]!) --] 06:03, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

whether you believe it or you don't, it doesn't make it any less of a fact nor does sufficient or lack of documentation. there are some things that are just apparent. {{unsigned|160.94.66.188|19 Sept 2005}}

== Links ==

It doesn't seem to me like Neo-Black.com deserves two links, bolded, in a separate section. I'm not even sure it deserves ''one'' link. But I leave it to someone who has been more actively working on this article to actually make the call. -- ] | ] 03:29, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
* And I see that the section keeps growing. Again, just noting that someone may want to keep more of an eye on this: I can imagine it turning into a link farm. -- ] | ] 23:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

== A plea for references ==

Please, please add references to this (apparently well written) article supporting its statements. Remember that the criterion for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is ''not'' truth, but verifiability&mdash;it greatly weakens the article that we cannot source its facts and (especially) interpretations thereof. See also ] and ]. ] 23:15, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

==1964==
There are no "African Americans" because there is no nation named Africa America. In 1964, U. S. Presidential candidate ] claimed that (if elected) he would assign Negroes to a land of their own out west where the State of Oregon is located. Thomas Jefferson had advocated that Negroes be assigned to "the Pacific coast" (where Oregon and the State of Washington were created). In 1964, people in the United States began to say that Presidential candidate ] was crazy. He had been adored for ten years, but he lost his attractiveness after he promised that (if elected) he would, in his words, "separate the races."

The creation of "African Americans" resulted from the determination of the American landowners to re-name their slaves. Generally, Presidential candidate ] upset the ] people who own the United States. The landowners still have not recovered from shock.

There are Indonesians because there is a nation called Indonesia. There are Lithuanians because there is a nation called Lithuania. There are Australians because there is a nation called Australia. There are no African Americans because there is no nation called Africa America. Colored people in the United States live in dilapidated buildings called slums.
] 11:43, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
<small>The only edit by this user.</small>

:What a load. Don't waste our time with this ridiculous trollop. If you're not a troll, you're certainly behaving like one. "Only edit"? You're clearly not serious. And this is not amusing. ] 07:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

::I am not attempting to "amuse" people. U. S. Senator ] was the most widely admired U. S. Senator of the 1950s, which is the reason why he became the Republican candidate for President in ]. I was already an adult when the ] was being discussed, so these submissions to ''Misplaced Pages'' are based on my memory, not on what some other person has told me. I observed how the landowners created "reverse discrimination."

::U. S. Senator ] went from being a wise man to being an ogre. The ] land-owning people in the United States cited the fact that he was a ] hobbyist and, therefore, a quirky person who kept awake at night talking on his long-distance radio to other strange people. They attacked him after ] for several years. Many of his admirers became his detractors. He never came close to recovering his former nation-wide adulation.

::The voters really wanted him to be a "Ron" Reagan sort who would never ship the ]es off. "Ron" Reagan told the ] people to "work your way out of poverty." People gushed all over "Ron" Reagan, claiming that he was a superior President, even suggesting that his image ought to be carved into ].] 13:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

:I am likely as old as you are, so there's no need to recount "ancient history." Barry Goldwater pissed a lot of people off -- not just whites --which is why he lost the election so resoundingly.

:Your initial assumption is entirely bogus. White people accepted the term "African American" only after black people insisted we were no longer "Negroes." And, yes, we ''do'' exist.

:"African-American" is in the tradition of what used to be called "hyphenated Americans": Italian-Americans, Lithuanian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc. One of the most fundamental aspects of human organization is group membership -- family, clan, ethnicity, community, nation. It is not enough to see oneself as part of the broad range of humanity. There is a desire for smaller group identifications, which is played out again and again throughout history. At some level, people ''always'' group or characterize themselves by shared history, language and other aspects of culture, physical attributes, etc. By virtue of the impulses which gave rise to nation-states, most nations, historically, certainly, provided a ''general'' framework for demographic homogeneity on ''some'' level (shared history, culture, language), but still being comprised of smaller, ethnic communities with similarly shared characteristics. Still, in the most stable nations, the larger national identity generally prevails. When it does not, there are usually deep-rooted divisions involved. There are Croatians, Serbs (in Bosnia), Basques (in Spain), Catholics and Protestants (in Northern Ireland), Tutsis and Hutus (in Rwanda), etc. No one would argue, as you have that there is no such thing as a Tutsi because there is no "Tutsiland." Such an argument is ridiculous on its face.

:The U.S. has a history, perhaps, unlike any other nation on earth in that its most defining characteristic demographically is not its homogeneity, but its diversity. It is largely a nation of immigrants. The initial immigrants came from all over Europe. Defining themselves as simply "American" has ''never'' been sufficient; the universe of membership in the club, so to speak, is too broad, too disparate, too ''different'', too ''foreign'' in which to be comfortable. While it is easy to plege allegiance to a flag and a nation on one level, on an everyday level of human interaction -- dining (foodways), conversing (language), fraternizing (all elements of culture) -- one's first contacts and often first preferences are characterized by homogeneity. Sameness. And it is this sameness which forms the basis for primary group identity (beyond smaller levels of organization, such as the smallest, which is family).

:Thus, people became "hyphenated Americans." Whites ''still'' refer to themselves by those hyphenated group identifiers. It is commonplace. It speaks of shared values, shared history, shared language, shared culture, often shared physical characteristics (broadly speaking), and a common geogrpahic point of origin -- defined by nation-state.

:African-Americans, of course, generally are ''not'' immigrants, but descendants of slaves. However, we share the same human needs, the same human tendencies when it comes to group identification. Historically, however, we were called all sorts of names not of our choosing. We decided, as we had often done in the past over the centuries, to rename ourselves -- on of the classic steps in the process of self-identification and self-determination. time, it was a term of ''our'' choosing. "Negro" had acquired too much baggage. We rejected the term of our former masters, as we had rejected "nigger", "darky", "coon", "colored" -- you name it.

:"Black" generally was acceptable, but a growing social and political consciousness demanded an association with our homeland, as well. But because of the circumstances of our arrival in America, identification with particular nation-states was problematic, if not impossible -- but Africa would suffice. So, we are "African-Americans."

:And ''that'' is the ''real'' history of the term. We don't need anyone's permission to call us what we call ourselves, and the opinions of outsiders to the group matter not one whit. So, don't waste your time. ] 10:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:24, 25 December 2024

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Please add back Louisiana Creole French Under Languages

I noticed it has been removed without explanation and as an LA Creole myself this is an important aspect of AA Heritage and culture that has been wiped from the page. it has been there for a decade and was only removed this year. 66.163.89.16 (talk) 21:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

According to the Wiki, there are only 77 thousand native speakers.
Even if all of them are African American (which is highly unlikely) it would constitute a very tiny minority of African Americans. It's removal probably has to do with that.
Inclusions of such minorities of <0.1% for a language, amongst other topics, would clutter the article. Gelbom (talk) 02:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
It was only listed under the languages tab on the side, so the argument of it cluttering the article makes no sense. Also, a Louisiana Creole cuisine is a language of African-American people from people that are of Louisiana Creole Heritage. It seems like you are not very educated on this topic respectfully, but I don’t expect many people to really know about our history as LA Creoles. My reason for saying this was a lack of understanding made apparent to me in your first few sentences when you say you doubt that All of these speakers are African-American, when it is quite literally language of that group, a specific cultural heritage within African-American people. It’s a part of the diversity of AA people based on regional heritage and history.
By the same logic you’ve used, Gullah Geechee should be removed as well because it’s an incredibly tiny fraction of African-American people based on regional cultural heritage, but it still is a part of it which is why it’s listed. This is why they both were listed side-by-side until February of this year. Again is erasure of the diversity of African-American people. 65.43.209.212 (talk) 03:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
My bad. I got redirected to Louisiana French. This language has only 10,000 speakers according to wiki. Which would probably mean there are over 100 languages with more speakers in the African American community.
Unless African American is to mean those largely decendant from United States black slaves imported to the US over 150 years ago, it might reduce speakers above 10k to 50 langauges. That is still a long list.
I suppose however that the language having it's genesis among American blacks does merit its mention however. So I suppose I am inclined to support your decision.
(Also according to the wiki lede, it has other racial groups speaking it. This seems like a shoehorn but I'm inclined to believe not everyone of these 10k people are black.) Gelbom (talk) 21:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Done. I think it makes perfect sense. While a majority don't speak it, it's uniquely pertinent to the heritage and cultural history of African Americans. : ) Gabecube45 (talk) 05:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
I moved the "other languages" to the section in the body, African Americans#Language. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE has a strong tendency to restrict the contents of the infobox to "Key facts". Rsk6400 (talk) 07:45, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Info box discourse is insane on here Gabecube45 (talk) 08:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Black American Music F24

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2024 and 16 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mensahrunit, Erobertsonn (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Kpcw24 (talk) 19:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)


Change title to Black Americans?

Since this post is talking about Black Americans, to the exclusion of North Africans, should the title not be Black Americans? Captchacatcher (talk) 18:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME applies. African American is far more popular than Black American based on this Ngrams search. SKAG123 (talk) 05:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
This debate happens so often it's not even funny. I have no idea why but it won't go away. Gabecube45 (talk) 23:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Francisco Menéndez, Fort Mose

The Hispanic model of identity and representation has been historically characterized by its multi-faceted nature, which transcends strict racial categorizations. Numerous figures exemplify this complexity, including San Martín de Porres, Beatriz de Palacios, Spanish conquistador Juan Garrido that established the first commercial wheat farm in the Americas, Estevanico, Francisco Menendez in Florida, Juan de Villanueva, Juan Valiente, Juan Beltrán, Pedro Fulupo, Juan Bardales, Antonio Pérez, Gómez de León, Leonor Galiano, Teresa Juliana de Santo Domingo and Juan García. Additionally, Juan Latino stands out as a significant figure in this discourse; he is recognized as the first black African to attend a European university, ultimately achieving the status of professor. This highlights the notion that the Hispanic identity is not monolithic and is instead enriched by diverse contributions across racial and ethnic lines. Such examples serve to challenge simplistic perceptions of race within the historical narrative of Hispanic culture. 31.164.184.21 (talk) 18:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Racial or ethnic group ?

Until recently, the lead sentence had "are an ethnic group". Now, it's "racial group". I just reverted an addition claiming that African American normally refers to the ethnic group, Black Americans to the racial group. Any thoughts ? Rsk6400 (talk) 06:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Should be more clear about ethnicity vs racial identification (as its clear its not clear to all). As of now we have an odd round about lead that takes a whole paragraph to say something simple.....just say Generally, the term Black denotes a racial identification, while African American refers to an ethnicity, specifically Americans with ancestry from one or more of the African continent's Black racial groups Moxy🍁 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
But what do we do with the first sentence ? Rsk6400 (talk) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
“African American,”refers to people in the United States who self identity as having origins from Sub-Saharan Africa. Generally, the term Black denotes a racial identification, while African American refers to an ethnicity, specifically Americans with ancestry from one or more of the African continent's Black racial groups. APA style guide Moxy🍁 08:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
That’s not an ethnicity. It’s a grouping because Africans have so many different ethnic groups so just “Americans with ancestry from the continent of Africa” would not be an ethnic group. Ethnic Black Americans are the Black Americans that share ancestry through chattel slavery and that is distinctive culture and people this Misplaced Pages page is trying to capture. An African immigrant wouldn’t be an ethnic Black American they’d be -American such as “Nigerian Americans” “Ghanaian Americans” and we already have Misplaced Pages pages for them. Ajaystudies (talk) 13:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
We should say it's both a racial and an ethnic group. Both are mentioned and supported in the lead and body. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
I tried "racial or ethnic group" because the word "or" is as ambiguous as the problem itself. I also used Moxy's idea of self identification. But as I read the style guide, it is not clear whether "Black" and "African American" can be clearly distinguished. Just a try, feel free to comment and / or improve. Rsk6400 (talk) 16:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
African-American is strictly an American term. No other Nation uses it and this should be made clear. Moxy🍁 20:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@Nampa DC: You changed it back to "ethnic group", although at least three editors seem to prefer "racial group" or "ethnic or racial group". Could you please explain ? Rsk6400 (talk) 18:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Immigrants

The article reads, "While some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify as African American, the majority of first-generation immigrants do not, preferring to identify with their nation of origin."

However, the citations listed do not support this statement and one source actually say the opposite:

"However, as the number of African and Caribbean blacks immigrating to the USA has increased, so have the chances that someone who identifies as black or African American is a first- or second-generation immigrant." -Who is an ‘African American’? Definition evolves as USA does Tracy Scott Forson USA TODAY NETWORK 2018 96.241.225.164 (talk) 07:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Have a question ....

Please help me . As far as I understand "African Americans(AA)" means those "Americans(Citizens of USA)" who had or whose parents had either African citizenship ,or ancestry . Then why make AA= Black Americans(BA)? The term AA is ethnic ?or based on skin?colour or based on ancestry ?

There are "black skin colour people" outside Africa too . So when we say AA why BA is automatically assumed. Example: "IF" a white south african citizen become usa citizen he will be AA but not BA . Similarly those from other continent who fortunately or unfortunately have black skin colour will be BA once become USA citizen even if they are not AA . Mike, the regular nose job (talk) 13:41, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Mike, the regular nose job. My understanding of the term African American, refers to decendants of enslaved people. Beyond that, I'm not sure. In UK it's generally Black British. This is because we have black people who originated from all over the world, especially the British colonies. I'm unsure what Americans use for white South Africans? Knitsey (talk) 14:34, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Yeah that's the problem.
No disrespect to history of USA or its people or their struggles but the term AA and BA being used as interchangeable, which "I" believe is kinda dumb , you can't equal racial and ethnic optics , those are separate things or so I believe . Mike, the regular nose job (talk) 21:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
  1. "Review | February 2012: 1493 by Charles Mann '76 | Amherst College". www.amherst.edu. Retrieved 2024-10-28.
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