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== |
== Changing the name of Spain to Andalusia == | ||
Spain is a colonial name of Andalusia of the Islamic Caliphate. Its not exist. Please change the name to Andalusia the not colonial name ] (]) 15:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
According to some statistics at least 500000 to 600000 work legally or not in Spain, a lot of them have given residency status, they can integrate very well since the ] language is a latin one like spanish. | |||
:Dear Misplaced Pages user. Kindly check accurate sources prior to making this kind of comments. While the Spanish constitution does not establish an official name for the state of Spain ] While the origin of the word might be uncertain, the hypothesis of the Phoenician word ] ] (]) 08:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
== One country, many nations == | |||
:Hello. We, following the guidelines of ], go by what places are most commonly called, not what someone reasons out they ''should'' be called. ] (]) 12:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Lads, you took the bait. Look where the IP is from. Look at what happened between Spain and that place on 28 May 2024. ]. ] (]) 21:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
I have made some changes in the "Identities section" (number 16), whose previous text seemed too based on personal opinions or perceptions, and not in actual data, which is what an encyclopedia like this should have. My source for this data, that correct greatly some subliminal quantifications that were present in the previous text, are cited at the end of the section, and I owe it to Miguel, who referred to it in the "Identities" section of this discussion (see below). There are also other surveys that give similar data (some of them even reported by Catalanist newspapers whose ideology is quite alien to the results of this very surveys: ). | |||
:::@] How do I look where the IP is from? ] (]) 02:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
I also correct some miscitations of the Spanish Constitution, as well as some "weasel phrases" that, according to the Wiki instructions (page "Cite sources", section "When you add content") should not be included in a Misplaced Pages. | |||
:::Is there a reason you felt the need to be cryptic instead of just saying that the IP is from Israel and it was the day that Spain recognized Palestine? ] (]) 12:17, 15 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Don't feed the trolls. ] (]) 12:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Showing the name in the regional languages == | |||
As the spanish constitution states, these languages are only acknowledged as coofficial in their respective autonomous comunities, furthermore, neither asturian nor aragonese have the status of cooficial languages in Asturias or Aragon respectivly. I would also sugest that if it's decided to keep the name in the cooficial languages, it is also shown in valencian, or atleast changing the label from "catalan" to "catalan/valencian". ] (]) 22:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
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:The name is translated into languages that are native to the place, not necessarily official. As for the change you suggest, treating Valencian and Catalan separately makes absolutely no sense (just as I and many other people have already told you many times in several other places). The choice of the name "Catalan/Valencia" over "Catalan" is in this case not up for discussion, for this name is automatically generated when you use the template for IPA: {{IPA|ca|IPA}}. And the name this template automatically generates is "Catalan". So if you want this to be changed, the ones you should contact are (I guess) the administrators. That would change the wording for every page in which this template is inserted. ] (]) 14:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Your edit was made disrupting the consensus and deleting something that has been here for years. | |||
::I have accepted your point of view in the page languages of Spain (albeit you were the only one which didn't agree with me and you changed it MONTHS LATER) but now I did the same here and only 2 weeks later. | |||
::Also notice someone else deleted your edits and completely wiped out Valencian, which didn't even allow Catalan/Valencian to be together, and as you might know, that's an entire disrespect movement for the ] but also for the entire ] culture, history and traditions. | |||
::The Spanish Constitution and the Valencian Statute of Autonomy officially call it Valencian. We both know this and neither of us have a problem with this. From a linguistical point of view, they are 2 names for the same language (both Catalan and Valencian are valid, as you know as well and as the sources refer) but someone after you made a further edit deleting all of that thus making it even unmatchable with the sources, as the sources mention Valencian. | |||
::I am not the user from above (he is using an IP, I don't use IPs... if I want to edit, I use my account) you did first an edit on 7th of July in this page deleting all of the stuff mentioned above without consensus. Okay, now it's time to reach that consensus if you want to make these changes. Until then, you have to leave the page as it was before, as the discussion we had in the page ] as you surely remember. Then, even you with your own account changed it to Valencian/Catalan or Catalan/Valencian but a day later another user completely wiped out Valencian. And that's not acceptable. ] (]) 22:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::You don't even have to care about what I've wrote above as that info from the infobox was added by a permanently banned/blocked user: | |||
::{{userlinks|MylowattsIAm}} | |||
::The info regarding the official regional languages is already mentioned on the FIRST note of this page. If you still want to change Valencian somehow (remember it was here for years, check the edit history) please explain your point and reach a consensus with more people than just you and me. As I prefer to leave it as it was, since the official ] calls it Valencian and in the languages box I've clearly stated (as it was before) that Catalan/Valencian are the name for the same language, just officially called Catalan in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands and Valencian in the Valencian Community. ] (]) 22:48, 23 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Yeah, sure, you are not that user. I am just going to say a couple of things: | |||
I removed this from Spain/People: '*If only strict Spain is considered the number lows to 21,894,895.' The same thing has been done to France. (1) "lows to" is not English and (2) I think the person is removing the Catalan-speaking population from Spain's population (maybe the Galician-speakers and Basques, too?) and the Occitan-speakers from France. Misplaced Pages may not be a dictionary, but it seems to be a home for separatist movements. --MichaelTinkler | |||
:::When you say that my edit "was made disrupting the consensus and deleting something that has been here for years", and when you ask me to "remember it was here for years, check the edit history", perhaps I should remind you that the first and only edit that treated them as separate languages was made on March 8th 2024. Before that, only the four co-official languages were shown (Occitan, Catalan, Basque and Galician) and that is the version that has been on the page for ages. You also said "linguists use" or "the Spanish consitution says", to which I can only answer that perhaps you should take a look at the constitution (which never mentions any language other than Spanish) and to the linguistic bibliography (which you are clearly unfamiliar with and which, for the most part, uses only the name "Catalan" and definitely always avoids writing in a way that makes them look like different languages). | |||
:::Consensus is to be sought in order to properly reflect different '''''scientific''''' approaches to the same phenomenon. If you say the Earth is flat and I say it is round, Misplaced Pages will not try to reach a middle term between us: it will reflect my view and, perhaps, mention yours as a pseudoscientific doctrine with some social relevance. The case of Catalan/Valencian is not different. You just cannot list them separately just as you cannot list Spanish and Castillian, or Romanian and Moldovan, or Flemish and Dutch, separately. ] (]) 10:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::First of all, keep doing again these reverts trying to push your OWN POV (as you were the only one who did these changes in 7th July 2024 without any consensus) and you will be reported. | |||
::::And second, I won't read all of that BS honestly. I have seen now you accuse me of being a sockpuppet of several accounts which I didn't even know. I understand you are clinically obsessed with me because I am strongly against your extremely biased agenda. Since you've made it personal, wait for consensus from other people. Ciao ciao. ] (]) 14:20, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::What I won't tolerate, though, is yourself spitting out on such an important page on Misplaced Pages and making silly edits and repeating the same info twice as well as evading the official name of the language spoken in a specifical region just because you're biased and you can't accept it, the sources are there to back it up. Try to be 1% neutral and read ]. | |||
:::::{{ping|Agpishi}}, that change you have just made (reverting all my edits just in a "instant rage" for that personal bias you have against me) was adding back a change made by a user who is PERMANENTLY BLOCKED: | |||
:::::{{userlinks| MylowattsIAm}} | |||
:::::So if your desire is to keep what blocked trolls/sockpuppets is, redo again my edits. If that's not your desire, then EXPLAIN YOURSELF, explain why do you want to change that, why do you want to repeat something twice and wait for consensus. Adéu! ] (]) 15:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Pinging correct username, {{Ping|Agpshi}}. I agree that the current version is the stable one, and the changes that were reverted should not be reinstated without consensus to do so on this page. ] (]) 16:10, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I agree. The other one was breaking the stable version and it was also instroduced by a now permanently blocked user. | |||
:::::::{{ping|Agpshi}} Please engage in this talk section and explain your point before doing further edits. As you can see, I'm not the only user who has noticed that your edit was breaking the stable version. I did not accuse you, though, because that was added by another user. But don't revert stable edits without consensus. ] (]) 23:10, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Spain is not a cultural superpower. == | |||
Not true -- ''Religions: Roman Catholic 99%, other 1%'' | |||
This Misplaced Pages article says that Spain is a cultural superpower. But the citations given in the article (citations 14 and 15) only claim that Spain was a global superpower in the Age of Discovery (15th thru 17th centuries) like Britain, Portugal and France, and a world heritage power. Being a global superpower (like the U.S. is now) and a world heritage power are not the same thing as being a cultural superpower. The people of the Iberian penisnsula and peoples in Europe all the way up to Britain were granted Roman citizenship by the Latins during the Roman Empire which started BCE. This Misplaced Pages article also says Spain has a cultural wealth, but it attributes it to Rome (its Latin language and culture), the Visigoth settlers (who spoke Latin), and the Muslims who conquored the Visigoths and started speaking Latin. Spain, having used Italy's Latin language and culture, does not qualify it or any other European country, except Italy, as being the cultural superpower it is. | |||
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Removed from article: | |||
I've just checked out the Culture section of Misplaced Pages's Italy article. Italy is a cultural superpower. The valid citation 333 on the Italy article lists The Washington Post, The Australian, the former Foreign Affairs Minister Giulio Terzi, and U.S. President Barack Obama attesting to the fact that Italy is a cultural superpower. Italy gave the world the Latin alphabet which was derived from the Etruscans and Greek alphabet which was parented by the Phonecian alphabet and ultimately Egyptian hieroglyphs. Italy also gave the world the Gregorian calendar (a revision of Caesar's Julian calendar), and a court system (a judge, selected jury and protracted trials) which improved upon the Greek's laymen system which, itself, was an improvement on the Middle East's system. | |||
:In fact, Spain does not exist as a nation. It's just a State made from different nations (i.e. Catalunya or Catalonia, Euskadi, Galiza, Castilla and so on, each of them having their own language). As Castilla has dominated by militar means the different neighbour nations since the XVIIIth century (except Portugal, of course), they have imposed their vision of a "united, great and free" Spain, which does not exist accordingly to reality. Dictator Francisco Franco (died 1975) designed king Juan Carlos I in order to make sure that Castilla would dominate the rest of nations as it had been doing for the last three centuries. | |||
It's safe to say that Italy was the last of the cultural superpowers. Its capital, Rome, gave us Latin which derived not only into Italian, but many other European languages including English. Italy's Latin alphabet and calendar are used worldwide. The Greeks gave us Western Culture and the Greek alphabet. The Middle East gave us the Phonecian culture and alphabet. And, of course, the Egyptians gave us their culture and hieroglyphs. All cultural superpowers. Countries that use the Latin culture of Italy, whether it be the U.S., Spain or the UK, are not cultural superpowers. Superpowers during epochs, yes. Cultural superpowers, as Italy is, no. This article needs to be cleaned up. Its first section is unnecessarily misleading and fluffy. ] (]) 11:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
ATTENTION!!!!!! Meese are taking over the world you need to run for cover or become one with the meese this is important you need to do as I say or you will not live until the end of the world. Meese are very harmful animals! | |||
:As I already told you, these are not exclusive things. Being a cultural supwerpower is not a status owned by Italy or countries home to ancient civilisations. Countries have continued to produce culture up to this day. The US is unquestionably a cultural superpower, due to the impact that country has on modern science, cinema, pop music etc. That may not be the classical culture of Italy, Greece and Egypt, but it is still a very influential culture, just of a different type. If the problem is the need of proper sources to back up the claim for Spain I would stick with that, without going into other reasonings, cause you are making very extreme claims: Spain certainly has cultural wealth as it has a big body of Spanish art, Spanish literature etc.; English uses the Latin script, but it's not a Latin language. Having been influenced by Latin culture does not disqualify Spain, Portugal, the UK or whatever from being a cultural superpower on their own. The article does have questionable things that have been introduced over time by agenda-driven socks and we can deal with that, but that's another issue. Regarding the lack of a source directly calling Spain a cultural superpower I have added a "further citation needed" for Spain at the section where the "cultural superpower" references links to, but I am against removing the passage as i don't think it will be problematic for users to find such a source. ] (]) 14:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
What the #%$@ is a Meese, and no I will not become one will the Meese. someone should remove the meese thing from this article. | |||
::Do we have a source for this statement? <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 15:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Okay, that's fair. I will watch out for the editor you mentioned from Spain who makes grandiose edits here. I agree, he's the one making the absurd claims. But, remember, cinema comes from Europe not North America. And Pop music (popular music) comes from many nations. I think the black people whose ancestors were brought to the American continent are among the most productive people on that continent. Specifically in the USA. They gave us Gospel, Blues, Jazz, Swing, Boogie Woogie, Rock and Roll, Disco, Hip Hop. | |||
::Whenever I think of the US, I'm reminded of black people. Probably from seeing "Gone with the Wind". Black people's music is always enjoyable. The buzz over here is Kamala will win. It would be a wonderful thing if a black lady landed the job as the first US female president. And, of couse, the Native Americans are making their way up to the US border. They're arriving in caravans and the whole world is watching. J.Lo is very Native American-looking. It would be nice to see a Native American woman (or man) in the White House soon. ] (]) 16:48, 6 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:The cited sources don't say it's a superpower and, in the absence of reliable sources calling it such (and probably even if there are any) it's ] that we don't need to echo. Further, I looked through the subsequent sections to see if there was any information to substantiate the claim. Nearly all the periods, styles, movements covered are from the past, some of them centuries ago, and the majority of the people named are dead. About the only thing current is the movie industry, so maybe it's a cinematic superpower. And tapas. Tapas everywhere. But art? Music? Literature? Poetry? Architecture? Television? Possibly in the Spanish-speaking world. But, as I said, going by the article, it's mostly in the past. So Spain ''was'' long a cultural powerhouse. Still, I'm approaching this from a ] point of view. Sources are key. ] (]) 19:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Looks like it's been here for some time (although its been contentious and reverted multiple times) .... Let's see if anyone can come up with a source. If not it should be removed as a weird Misplaced Pages construct. I see on the main page about cultural superpower there has also contentious edits that have been discussed on the talk page to no avail. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 21:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Well, ], I take back what I said. After checking the history of this, I have found that Spain as a cultural superpower was indeed added (here and in the page ]) by socks of ]. In ] he used his sock Venezia Friulano and another suspected sock TechnicianGB to push back against users who objected to its introduction. This time I had not realized it was him, sorry. ] (]) 06:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::@] '''"About the only thing current is the movie industry, so maybe it's a cinematic superpower. And tapas. Tapas everywhere. But art? Music? Literature? Poetry? Architecture? Television?"''' | |||
::Spain currently is the second-most visited country in the world, with 600 Millions of people speaking its language, including a huge number of foreign students. | |||
::Search better sources or delete the statement, but have some respect for the country. | |||
::@] | |||
::'''"Spain, having used Italy's Latin language and culture, does not qualify it or any other European country, except Italy, as being the cultural superpower it is."''' | |||
::Honestly, this discredits you as someone educated in history. I don't know why Spain attracts so much attention, contempt and criticism from other nationalities. In recent months it seems to be the norm in this article. ] (]) 14:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Spain attracks tourists because it's a major sellout. It's extremely inexpensive and sells land to other EU members and the British. Especially the British. The British have holiday homes and permanent homes in Spain because they purchased property there. Now, the Spaniards are complaining there are too many foreigners in their country. Well, the British and the other EU members got what they paid for; their land and homes in Spain. They bought it, they own it. ] (]) 14:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::The price factor does not make sense, Spain has relatively similar prices to Italy and Greece. UK citizens with property (House) in Spain does not exceed 13,000, however, each year Spain receives ~14 Million Britons, and 300,000 live in Spain regularly, so your argument that there is a lot of tourism in Spain because "the country sells its land" seems quite weak. | |||
::::As @] told you, it is not necessary for you to despise Spain to defend your points. | |||
::::I'm not going to build more on this non-constructive Off-Topic. | |||
::::My opinion is that this statement (cultural superpower) should be deleted if It angry you, and if someone later finds an acceptable source, recover it. ] (]) 15:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::As I said, Spain has lots of cultural wealth, we don't need a source to establish the obvious, many people worldwide study Spanish arts and visit Spain (and no, it's not due to British buying houses)...that qualifies in my book for having cultural influence and the arguments against it provided by Claudio are not on point here, as they are based on the idea that if Greece and Italy influenced others then the others cannot be cultural powerhouses on their own, if Europe influenced the US then the US cannot be a cultural powerhouse...that kind of reasoning obviously is a fallacy. The only issue I aknowledge is that the specific statement "Spain is cultural superpower" was introduced by blocked socks without a source. But this is a matter of form, not of content. We can make a similar point without using a specialistic concept. Denying the existence of Spanish cultural influence and wealth is just plainly wrong. ] (]) 15:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::A country isn't a cultural superpower because people speak the language that originated there or because people visit it. The overwhelming majority of native Spanish speakers aren't Spanish, and most people who learn it have Latin America, not Spain, in mind. Millions visit Iceland, does that make it a cultural superpower? Regarding your comment about my knowledge of history, that brings up exactly one of my points: the sentence is in the present tense. Spain ''had'' a huge cultural impact. I'm talking about ''today''. ] (]) 16:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::We can remove that sentence if it's/as long as it is sourceless, apparently no one has a problem with that. Keeping the context of Spain having a significant culture is what matters, no need to fight over a specific definition. I personally was just pushing back against the bias of that user, who, to my shock, has been blocked for being himself the guy who introduced that very sentence in the first place. He was trolling and flaming all of us. ] (]) 16:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::@] It seems like you're confusing being a political/economic Superpower with being a cultural Superpower. Language and tourism are obviously important factors to be a cultural Superpower. | |||
::::Language is probably one of the most obvious cultural projections that exist for a country. It is not credible to say that people study Spanish without thinking about Spain. Also comparing Iceland's tourism (about 3 million a year) with Spain (85 million a year) seems quite absurd to me. Spain is the second-most visited country in the World precisely because of its cultural influence. | |||
::::Its not even a serious debate. It is quite obvious that Spain is one of the major cultural powers. The only issue is that the current sources do not affirm that and it was added by a Sockpuppet that has flamed here against Spain. ] (]) 16:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::If you think I'm confusing the two then you can't possibly have really read my original message, where I touched on nearly all the subtopics in the Culture section and said nothing about politics or the economy, at all ] (]) 17:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Oh my God! People sometimes think of Spain! They're aware of it! | |||
:::::Re {{tq|It's not even a serious debate. It is quite obvious ...}}: The fact that multiple people disagree with you and that I have clearly listed substantive counterpoints indicates ''ipso facto'' that neither of those sentences is true. ] (]) 16:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::PD: And all this ignoring the fact that Spain has also an important weight in sports, gastronomy and music (Ex. Flamenco, which is more popular outside of Spain than inside), lmao ] (]) 16:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Why are you now being the one causing a flame? The way you speak strongly reminds me of the historic blocked user of which Claudio has been established to be a sock...and you have been created while there is an ongoing investigation on his socks AND a debate at this talk page caused by him...I strongly suspect you have been specifically created to contribute to this whole flame. Like, are you are playing all sides in this? That's some next level. ], can you please check him too? What's going on here? I feel like I, ] and ] are being trolled hard into this. I have no words. ] (]) 16:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Exactly who have I attacked? I don't see any of my words as an attack. | |||
::::::The most I have said was "it discredits you as educated in history" and it was directed at the now blocked @]. | |||
::::::Feel free to check whatever you want. ] (]) 17:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Yeah, I am convinced that's you. The way you speak. I don't even know what to say. This whole exchange was just pure flame for no reason. ] (]) 17:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Imagine how desperate for attention a person would be to spend so much time creating dozens of sockpuppets and engaging in such lame antics. Truly pathetic. ] (]) 00:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::: ], it's even worse, he has had hundreds. ] (]) 08:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Sad. No one with a life outside WP would bother. ] (]) 11:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
Wait, ] has been blocked for being himself one of the many socks of the guy who introduced the claim, that's quite a turn of events. ] (]) 16:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
Don't worry, the Meese were destroyed by a super duper pooper scooper! | |||
Spain not a nation? Seems real fishy to me. I've heard of the UK as described as being composed of "component nations" but not Spain. Is there a cite for this? --] 08:14 25 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
:Let's remove it from the lead altogether and in the body remove {{purple|and a cultural superpower.(bad sources)}} and replace it with {{green|Spain is a Western country and one of the major Latin countries of Europe and has been noted for its international cultural influence.'''<ref name="r079">{{cite web | title=Countries With the Most Cultural Influence | website=U.S. News | date=January 1, 2024 | url=https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/influence | access-date=August 7, 2024}}</ref>'''}}<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 17:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
Yes, Spain is considered by many, including a large part of Spanish population, to be a group of nations unified under a single State. Any good History book will explain that. Of course, the centralist policy of Spanish government has led to a Spanish nationhood which is the one people identify with Spain internationally. Anyone with a good knowledge of Spanish reality know better: Spanish identity is, in fact, an overlapping succession of diferent national identities, some of them conflicting ones. Castilla is the core nationality of Spain, but no one calls themselves 'Castilians' - Castilians speak of themselves only as Spaniards. Gallicians, Catalans and Basques, otherwise, speak of themselves (at least a significant part of these regions' populations) as, first of all, pertaining to their nationality: Basque Country, Catalonia and Galicia. The situation is even more confusing, since there are regions with ambiguous identities, like Valencia, Balears, etc. The Spanish Constitution, although affirming the sovereignty of the Spanish Nation, recognises historical nationalities. Each nationality has a different language (Basque, for instance, is one of the oldest languages in the world; Catalan is spoken by more than 7 million people, etc). Until 1714, Spain was a loose confederation of kingdoms and statelets, under the same king, until that very king - Philip V - invaded parts of his own country - that's the origin of the present situation, apparently simple, but in fact extremely confusing and, I dare say, interesting. I am Portuguese (the only Iberian nationality without any kind of political Castilian rule) and I can attest that differences between some aspects of Catalan culture and Castilian culture, for instances, are far greater than differences between Castilian culture and the Portuguese one, although, obviously, the relationship of Spain's many peoples created strong ties between them, which are more evidently visible than differences to foreigners. | |||
::It's fine to me, it's the same thing really, we don't have to fight over specific words and concepts. Especially considered we are very likely being trolled. ] (]) 17:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
This situation is so strange to most people because foreigners tend to see foreign realities in their simplified image. Spain is not bullfights, flamenco and Spanish language: Spain has four official languages (Spanish/Castilian, Catalan, Basque and Galician, although Spanish is the only one official throughout the whole State), many kinds of music (some sounding quite un-Spanish to foreigners ears) and there are regions that abhor bullfights (like Catalonia). | |||
:The claim seems to have been introduced with ] by ], who was later blocked as a sockpuppet of ], but who a cursory review of their contributions doesn't reveal to have had an special interest in aggrandizing Spain. Claudio di Roma has made only ] to this article, and it was to ''remove'' "cultural" in front of "superpower" and the change the phrase, properly, from present tense to past tense. So Claudio di Roma didn't introduce the claim and didn't do anything here to magnify Spain. ] (]) 16:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
Spain is a wonderful country, modern and thriving, with multiple identities which, if they are a source of conflict, also are the real richness of that country (whether we consider it a nation or not). ] 22:38 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)Marco Neves -- if you want more references to this situation, contact me: marcoafn@hotmail.com | |||
::] , the claim was introduced by VeneziaFriulano and TechnicianGB at the ] page after a talk. It turns out that Claudio di Roma is a sock of James Oredan, hence of Venezia. He was trolling us. He was playing both sides. ] (]) 16:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::{{re|Barjimoa}} If you're satisfied that the evidence is clear, are you going to file a sockpuppet investigation report? ] (] 19:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Well now luckily there is no need to, because it's been being noticed and blocked for being a sock of James/Venezia by admins independently of this. ] (]) 19:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{Reflist-talk|closed}} | |||
== Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2024 == | |||
:Wow! Great info - somebody should integrate much of that into the article. --mav | |||
{{edit semi-protected|Spain|answered=yes}} | |||
:Done :-). check the identities section and post coments! | |||
Request to add a new ] titled {{Main|Mass media in Spain}} under ]. | |||
] | |||
] (]) 12:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
==National Anthem lyrics== | |||
:I kind of think this is summed up by the reference to ] and unneeded, I also think that there's no clear section heading to add it under, but I'll leave this open if someone disagrees. ] ⬡ 17:28, 24 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Tidbits of this is visible various aspects of the daily life in Spain. The National Anthem has lyrics, but they are never sung because it was not possible to agree on the language it which it would be sung. People just stand in silence as the anthem is played. Many times the European identity is stronger than the Spanish one, especially among the non Castillians. Catalans would for example, even if not advocating out right independence from Spain, in many cases rather see themselves a region of Europe, than a province of Spain. -- ] 05:13 26 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> I agree with Bestagon. The quality of the ] article is pretty low, and there's not much it has to offer compared to what ] already has. ] (]) 01:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Major metropolitan areas in Spain== | |||
::: I think you are wrong. The ] has no lyrics, but it didn't have them already durign Franco's regime when no question about language was imaginable. -- ] 02:20 28 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
:::: It did have lyrics during Franco's regime: "Arriba, España, etc." They were removed after the transition for democracy. ] 02:58 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)Marco Neves | |||
:::::Were they ever official? From what I know, ''"Viva España, alzad los brazos "'' were just the most frequent of several proposed lyrics but never official. Can you do some research? I am lazy :) (Should this be at the Marcha article?) ] 04:18 28 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
::::::The anthem has had several sets of lyrics throughout its history, but none have stuck. ] 18:14, 2004 Mar 20 (UTC) | |||
{{edit semi-protected|Spain|answered=yes}} | |||
==Language issues== | |||
Spain's capital and ] is ], and other major ] include ], ], and ]. ] (]) 22:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::: There were no questions about language because the government transmitted an image of Spain which did not correspond to what people really felt. Franco fall just short of denying that Catalan, Basque and Galician existed: in fact, his government sometimes called Catalan and Galician ''dialects'', which is linguistically absurd: Catalan is mainly related to languages outside Spain (Occitan) and Galician is related to Portuguese. Franco never said Basque was a dialect because it would be just plain stupid, Basque being some millenia older than Spanish. ] 02:58 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)Marco Neves | |||
Major metropolitan areas in Spain are Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and Sevilla<ref></ref>, but Zaragoza isn't. So, you must change ] to ] | |||
:::::It is linguistically wrong to call Catalan and Galician 'dialects', but not absurd. They are extremely close to Spanish — far closer than the various dialects of Chinese. | |||
:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (])(]) 05:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:https://es.m.wikipedia.org/Anexo:%C3%81reas_metropolitanas_de_Espa%C3%B1a ] (]) 07:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::: As far as vocabulary is concerned, Catalan is closer to Italian than to Spanish. And Galician is definitely closer to Portuguese than to Spanish. ] 13:34, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC) | |||
== Origns of the name of Spain == | |||
The idea that this name means Land of Rabbits is ludicrous and has no bases in the etymology and travel of language. The original name of the city of Isfahan or Esphanhan in Iran was originally Sepana and since the Mithriac traditions were so prevalent in that region it affords and validates to view the origin of this name from that perspective. We know from documented evidence that various cities is Spain were established by the Goths and the Alans, notably Catalonia which as GothAlania, a group of the Iranian people known as Sakas (later to be called Saxons) and these interactions were cultural, religious and linguistic. The issue seems to be that the origins of names do not go further than certain geographical areas and tend to attempt to restrict the etymology within certain geographic boundaries. This is a skewed view and unreliable as it excludes the etymology to elsewhere other than it's nearest point. ] (]) 00:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
Not really, Catalan is not closer to Italian than any other latin (romance)language. In fact Catalan is part of the linguistic sub-family wich include french, occitan(south france), and catalan. | |||
So, Catalan is closer to french than italian and spanish. | |||
:Are there reliable sources that support any of your claims? Are you taking into account that the Phoenicians were referring to the area as Spaniya many centuries before the arrival of the Goths and Alans and possibly before the name "Isfahan" came into use in what is now Iran? As for what you find ludicrous, why? There are clearly plenty of researchers who don't find it ludicrous. ] (]) 01:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
==Historic nationalities== | |||
:It is a debatable issue, a big part of modern ] is around those issues. There are some big commonalities among Spanish citizens, there some big differences. Some politicians accent the former, other the latter. For example, the ] (from memory) talks about a Spanish nation formed by regions and nationalities (note: not "nations"). "Nationality" is an ambiguous term to keep everybody sort of happy. Some people on the so-called "historic nationalities" (those with a greater degree of autonomy) claim for more or even independency (within the EU). It is difficult to know how popular are those views. I guess it depends on the exact question surveyed. Parties promoting straight independence remain minoritary. But local parties with independentist leanings can be majoritary in their areas. These pretensions are seen as crying for privileges by others. There even thos who vote "Spanishist" in Spanish elections and nationalist in local elections. | |||
:"A group of the Iranian people known as Sakas (later to be called Saxons)"? You must be joking. Utter nonsense. I have corrected the information per the given source, and added info from ''Developmental Biology in Hispania (Spain & Portugal)'' by Juan Arechaga, published by the '']''. Also, as I stated in my edit summary, we should not be citing journalistic content from a news site for etymological info, but rather the experts quoted in the news article. ] (]) 04:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Actually ] didn't enjoy much of its "superiority". It happened that Castilian institutions were weaker and gave more hand to kings. Thus, the kings tried to base the ] on Castile. The Spanish language became the common language in Spain, which is resented by many of the Spanish citizens who speak another mother tongue. Castile though since 19th century remained as a agricultural country. And the Basque Country and Catalonia went into industrialization, ensuing immigration from other parts of Spain (Andalusia, Galicia, Castile). Madrid, though, as the center of Castile and Spain, has also become developed. And it's currently peopled by large numbers of immigrants from Spain and now abroad (I guess this is similar to London, but lower-scale). There have been some attempts to develop a Madrilene identity, but it's rare for a current Madrilene to have ancient Madrilene ancestors. Thus, Madrilenes don't much understand what their former cousins are asking for. | |||
:So currently, there are those who claim for superposed identities. "I am Basque, I am Spanish and I am European" and those who prefer ]. | |||
:I hope I have not been too redundant with other WP pages. -- ] 02:20 28 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
==Spanish Language== | |||
:: Hi, error! (curious name) I mostly agree with your contribution, but I have some remarks, hope you don't mind ;) It is important to say that the Spanish language became the common language of Spain due not only to immigration but also to an active legal imposition of Castilian on other regions (or nations, nationalities, whatever). Some Spaniards deny this fact, saying that Spanish imposed itself by the will of the people, but the fact is laws and police action during the 19th and 20th century (!Actually, it wasn't only in the last 2 centuries, the imposition of castillian starts before in the 18th century and national opression with Conde Duque de Olivares in the 17th!) contributed to this: for instance, there were lots of regulations forbidding the use of Catalan in many places: in one of those laws, it was forbidden to speak Catalan on the phone, so, legally, you could speak Catalan with your mother unless you were speaking on the phone... In fact, Gaudí, the famous architect of Sagrada Familia, was arrested once for speaking Catalan in a specific situation. Ok, this doesn't deny what you said, it's just a remark. Another thing: it's true that Spaniards have much in common and many differences between themselves at the same time, but the fact is those 'commonalities' are shared, in their majority, with Portugal, creating an Iberian identity most people would rather say it's just Spanish (by the way, "Spanish" is a word that comes from the Latin for Iberian - it is applied to present-day Spain only since about 1714; any 15th-century ''Spaniard'' would speak of Spain as the entire Iberia, with its multiple independent states, calling himself some other thing, more specific). So, the present configuration of the Spanish state is rather an arbitrary one. Had Portugal remained in Spain and Catalonia stayed independent after 1640 (when both nations - at that time nobody said Catalonia was not a nation - tryed to free themselves from Castilia) it would seem as natural for as to speak about a Portuguese historical nationality and a Catalan nation as it is today to speak of Portugal as an independent country and Catalonia as a region of Spain. Happily, all this is confusing and interesting and languages and cultures never stop amazing us. | |||
:::There was some of everything. As Latin lost its status as only prestige language, Spanish became the language of administration of power. Enterprising noblemen learnt it. Camo&etilde;s himself used it. So the elite used it to achieve power. Local institutions lose power to the common ones (read Castile-based). With the Borbons and liberalism, a politics of unification came, based on Castile and its language. Most of the scarce printed production in Galician and (in Spain) Basque until 19th or 20th century was religious works aimed to the common (literate) people. They were the language of peasants, not of the educated. I am meandering. I mean, there was legal pressure, and there was a process of "bettering" among people. I'd like to have something about the extension process in ] but I am not sure if I could do it NPOV and wouldn't like to have too much battling with opposing views. | |||
==More on the validity of "Spain"== | |||
:::About the validity of "Spain", I think it is like "Italy". Certainly, 16th century Europeans knew that somebody was Italian, even though there wasn't a political unity until ]? The same with Spain. I presume that the Portuguese fought against the evil Spaniards, not the Castilians, Galicians, etc. The same about the Americas, though the heavy weight was on Castile (in a late sense), the colonisation was by "Spain" (at least after the early stages). | |||
::::Not quite as Italy... 16th century Europeans used the word "Spanish" to include all Iberians, not only those in present-day Spain. Camões, the great Portuguese poet, said "Portuguese and Castilians, we are all Spanish", something that would shock any present-day Portuguese. Portuguese do think Spaniards to be their great enemies, but only retrospectively. Until 16th/17th century, Portuguese people distinguised between the various Iberian peoples, being Castilians the enemy and, for certain periods, Catalans the ally (Portugal, England and Catalonia were alies for some time, which is proved by the importance of Saint George for the three people). The term Spain has gone trough more or less three stages: (1st) Spain was a geographic labelling, meaning Iberia and a utopian project of uniting all Iberian peoples under the same king; (2nd) in 1580 all Iberians came under the same authority, in a loose confederation of kingdoms and statelets when Portugal was inherited by Philip II - some years later, the Count-Duque of Olivares started the foundations of a centralist state: that was the moment when Spain began meaning a unified state, acquiring political meaning beyond utopian desires. (3rd) When Portugal recovered independence after 1640, "Spain" kept that political meaning, and only then did the present-day configuration of Spain take shape - more specifically, it was inscribed in law when the ''Decretos de Nueva Planta'' abolished the ''independence'' of the Catalan-Aragonese part of the Spanish Crown, creating what Olivares had dreamt (and, before him, many Castilian and Portuguese kings), but without Portugal. I don't deny that the term was used by Castilians before 1580 to describe their state, but only sporadically, not following popular use and bearing always in mind the project of unifying Spain (latin Hispania, all Iberia). So, we can say Spain was a political project of Castilian kings which resulted in a truncated version of the first project: Spain never fully achieved its unification, since Portugal managed to remain independent. To speak of Catalans in the 14th/15th century as Spanish and common enemies of Portugal is an anachronism. ] 14:20 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)Marco Neves | |||
:::::But I'd say that in 16th century and later the feeling greatly changes. -- ] 02:38, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)~ | |||
==Borders== | |||
:::I think most of the current borders have some of arbitrariness. Had the things gone different in the War of the Hundred Years or Satsuma or..., we could have the ''Royaume Unie de France, Angleterre, et Ecosse'', a Christian Japan and a Shinto one, or one ] and several small Brazils. But, those events happened and certainly had some effect on reality. -- ] 04:18 28 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes, all those events had an impact on reality, but in the case of Spain, political unification didn't mean the unification of people's hearts. For instance, France and Italy are unified nations, in spite of beginning as groups of nations; for same reason, Spain didn't achieve such homogeneity, in spite of all the efforts of central governments. But, of course, Spain do exist, a Spanish State is a reality and many people feel Spain to be their nation, with all legitimacy (with the same legitimacy as Portuguese have the right to feel themselves a nation and, for that matter, Catalans). ] 14:20 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)Marco Neves | |||
:::::Some Corsicans, New Caledonians and Padanians wouldn't agree with you. Sicily had chances for independence after World War II (Mafia-style independence, probably) | |||
::I would also like to add that it's disgusting that some people just can't understand that these questions are to be discussed in forums like this one and go on killing innocents to achieve some kind of ethnic Basque state (and it is also a pity - but not a crime! - that the Spanish government insistently tries to link every independentist in Spain with terrorism...). ] 02:43 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)ps: sorry for the confusing text... | |||
== History == | |||
I reworked the history section and found a number of problems to discuss/fix: | |||
* The original peoples of Spain (''Iberos'' in Spanish) should probably called ], but this links to a Caucasian region. We need a good disambiguator to fix this. | |||
** We need to mention ] | |||
** A look at Roman accounts of the conquest of Hispania will provide a partial list of tribes still existing around the 2nd Century BC. This includes at least ] and ]. | |||
More later. | |||
] 03:30, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC) | |||
*** Didn't Spain practice some kind of communism in the past? I will suggest we briefly mention about it under the economy section | |||
------------------------------- | |||
==More issues fixed and the castilian/spanish language== | |||
] | |||
I fixed the following issues: | |||
-missing info about the gascon language (aranese) | |||
-Spain has four climate zones, not one | |||
-moved the initial paragraphs to a new introduction section | |||
-moved some text from the political issues to territorial claims | |||
-renamed autonomous comuntities to administrative divisions to include provinces. | |||
-Castilian is the offical name for spanish in Spain. It is prefered, therefore '''Castilian''' should be used in all article instead of '''spanish''' . | |||
:I don't really agree with this, as ''Spanish'' is the name of the language in English and ''Castilian'' is the name of a particular dialect of ''Spanish'' which is not even spoken on all of Spain. The use of ''castellano'' versus ''español'' is not even clearly delimited in Spanish, and different liguistic and political considerations have to be taken into account in each instance. | |||
:The choice of ''castellano'' in the Spanish constitucion is to be able to call the other languages of Spain ''lenguas españolas''. | |||
:I would therefore advocate using ''Spanish'' for the language, ''Castilian'' for the dialect of Castilla, and ''languages of Spain'' for Spanish, Basque, Catalan and Galician. | |||
:] 23:44, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC) | |||
---- | |||
Well, I did replace castilian to spanish after a similar discussion in ]. Though, I still find strange that the english language considers castilian dialect and spanish the language. | |||
:] | |||
The national language is called 'Spanish' in English, or alternatively 'Castilian' if contrasting with the other languages of Spain, or when talking about the middle ages. What is the 'Castilian dialect'? If you mean dialectalisms of Castile such as ''laísmo'', then say so. If you mean standard Spanish, then say so. Catalan, Basque etc. are languages of Spain. —] 13:52, 19 May 2004 (UTC) | |||
==valencian== | |||
the status of valencian as a language is not clear in the wikipedia. The ]wiki considers valencian a variant of catalan (..."Part of Valencia (País Valencià, Spain), where it is coofficial with Spanish and where the language is officially named Valencià (Valencian)." | |||
However, the ] wiki states "Valencian is similar to the Catalan spoken in West Catalonia and Andorra and is nearly indistinguisable from the Catalan spoken in Southwest Catalonia. Linguists tend to regard Valencian simply as a variant or dialect of the Catalan language or even as merely a different name for the same reality. However, some groups in Valencia claim Valencian to be a distinct language." | |||
For now, we should we should avoid an edit war on this issue, and find more sources on this subject. | |||
Well, no serious scholar of the roamnce languages has any doubt that catalan is the language spoken in Valencia. It is rather sad that confusion exists in the wikipedia, since catalan is precisely a very unified language compared to other romance languages like italian or portuguese, or even spanish. This is | |||
a politically motivated confusion that should not have its place in a knowledge-aiming discussion. If a majority of valencians do not want anything to do with Catalonia, that is a political discussion where all opinions should be heard. What I think is unacceptable is to desinform about the catalan language to support political objectives. | |||
:Yes, we should avoid it, taking into attention the fact that some Valencians make it a point of honour to consider Valencià a language and not a dialect. However, I'm Portuguese and to me it would be just fine if Valencian were a language. But I've read and studied lots of texts in both varieties (Catalan and Valencian) and I have encounteres very few palpable differences. It seems just logic to consider them (Catalan and Valencian) two official standards of the same dialectal continuum (the same could be said of European and Brazilian Portuguese, even if the concept of dialectal continuum would be hard to apply in that case). With some work, a criterion could be devised to establish what is and what is not a language in Iberian Peninsula (to apply it in other places could be inaccurate): for instances, in contact zones between Spanish and Catalan and Spanish and Portuguese, a person can speak one or both languages, but it is hard to find someone who constantly speaks a mixture of both (even if it can be found as a joke or in same other contexts) - there is a break rather than a continuum. In the case of Valencian/Catalan, probably no one speaks both "languages", but speaks a variety (ideolect) which can be nearer to one or other standard. Very few people feel the need to learn Valencian if they speak Catalan and vice versa. It could be called the "continuum criterion". I've not created it, but I'm trying to apply it to this particular situation. It still needs some work, but I'd love to hear opinions on the subject. | |||
:--] 23:25, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC) | |||
The problem is that the same name is used for a language and one of its dialects. In very broad terms, ''Catalan'' has three dilects, ''Catalan'', ''Valencian'' and ''Majorcan''. Politically this causes problems in Valencia and Majorca, because to say that Valencian and Majorcan are dialects of Catalan can be construed as meaning that they are dialects of the Catalan of Catalonia. In actual fact, the Catalan of Catalonia is a dialect of the Catalan language, and if you increase the level of detail in your analysis, the Catalan of Catalonia breaks down into a number of other dialects. The reaction of some in Valencia is to claim that Valencian is a separate language from Catalan in its own right, which is patent nonsense. A useful analogy might be the split of Serbocroatian into Serbian and Croatian since the early 1990s for purely political reasons. A choice was made to magnify the dialectal variation in order to claim two dialects of the same language to be two separate languages. | |||
: See ], ], ], ]. -- ] 01:52, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) | |||
:::I mostly agree you you. However, the very division of Catalan in three dialects is rather political, since, linguistically, it would make more sense to divide Catalan in Western Catalan and Eastern Catalan (with further subdivisions). Linguistically, Catalan spoken in Andorra has more to do with Valencian than with "Barcelonese". ] 05:27, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) | |||
:::::Is the Catalan of the Balearic Islands the same as Western Catalan? — ] 00:08, 2004 Apr 18 (UTC) | |||
::::Actually the Serbocroatian article (from memory) mentions that the difference between Serbian and Croatian does not match the linguistic division of dialects in whatever-kavski. Speakers of the same *-kavski would give different names for the language. Speakers of different *-kavskis may use the same standard version. | |||
:: These articles showed me how encyclopedic my ignorance of the history of southern slavic languages is, I stand corrected. Taken collectively, however, the articles appear superficially to be completely contradictory on the issue of how many languages there are in the former Yugoslavia, how many dialects, and who is a dialect of who, apart from containing disputed sections. — ] 03:30, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC) | |||
:::They had wars on that (and other issues), don't be surprised if Misplaced Pages can't raise a consensus. | |||
:: While we're at it, it might be worth pointing out the example of the Norwegian ]. The Misplaced Pages article does not discuss the history, but there is an external link ''small country with two languages'' that explains the political origin of nynorsk (essentially created by a 19th century linguist to be as different as possible from Danish). | |||
:: Another interesting case is the standard literary form of Basque, called Batua, did not exist before 1960, and was created by academics as a blend of the existing Basque dialects. — ] 03:49, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC) | |||
:::Actually every language in Spain (but for Aranese?) underwent a phase of standardization by picking from dialects. (See ] for Spanish and others institutions for the other languages). The case of Basque was maybe the most recent and with most different dialects. | |||
::::I am not trying to imply that languages that have been standarized lately are somehow "lesser". The point is that it takes a lot of knowledge of political as well as linguistic history to present a balanced account of these issues, and that Spanish and Catalan are by no means alone among European Languages in this respect. — ] 00:08, 2004 Apr 18 (UTC) | |||
::: And I remember a passage in ] on how somebody asked for "eggs" and was answered that they had but "eyren". | |||
This situation is avoided in Spanish by reserving the name Castilian for the Spanish of Castilla, but not all the time. As I have pointed out before, the choice of names for the language and its various dialects is a political statement, whether you intend it or not. The thing to remember is that language is a fundamental part of identity politics, and when languages or dialects are given the names of political entities, political problems arise and linguistic accuracy is lost. Within Catalan, the ] article correctly states that Valencian is indistinguishable from the catalan spoken in Tarragona, and sometimes one encounters the name "southern Catalan" for this dialect, as distinct from the "northern Catalan" of Lleida and Girona and from the catalan of the Balearic islands. In Spanish, one often sees "southern Spanish" (''español meridional'') used to refer to the Spanish of Estremadura and Andalusia ''and'' the ''Spanish of America'' which is descended from it. Then again, there is as much dialectal variation within the ''Spanish of America'' as there is in Spain, ans to put the Spanish of Mexico and Argentina in the same "dialect" is a definite stretch. | |||
Anything I could write about Catalan/Valencian would probably be disliked both by Catalanists and Valencianists anyway, so I'll abstain. ] 16:38, 2004 Apr 14 (UTC) | |||
::I never saw the name "castellano" being used in Spanish for the Spanish of Castilla, but always as equivalent to "español". English uses Castilian to signify "Spanish spoken in Castilia", but Spanish don't. ] 05:27, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) | |||
::I don't remember is ''castellano'' is commonly used in Andalusia. Anyway, isn't it used when discussing the early history of the language? | |||
:::Indeed, ''Castellano'' is the proper name for the dialect of Latin that Spanish is descended from, among other things because it originated in the territory of the County of Castilla. But already 1492 it must have had some of the dialectal variation it has today, as the Spanish of America and the modern dialects Andalusian and ''extremeño'' are supposed to be descended from the same southern Castilian dialect. — ] 00:08, 2004 Apr 18 (UTC) | |||
== Olivenza == | |||
I deleted the Olivenza disputy problem with Portugal. I first saw this in the CIA World Factbook, and was the first time I hearded about it. First of all nobody in Spain cares about Portuguese claim just because Olivenza has been Spanish for many centuries and it's located in the Spanish side of the Guadiana rived (the border between Spain and Portugal in that zone). | |||
:Congratulations; you have learned something. I restored the information, that others may learn too. - ] | |||
:Yes, I've learned you don't have any idea about Spain. So for you Bin Laden's claim of Al-Andalus (Andalucía) must be considered seriously? Olivenza's disputy hasn't been a problem for centuries. I'm thinking to write about Great Britain's claim of Virginia and the other colonies... | |||
::While it's quite unheard of in Spain, there are some groups in Portugal that think it important. And it has some real-world influence, the bridge across the the Guadiana has been incomplete for years because both countries didn't agree. -- ] 01:32, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) | |||
:::They didn't agree about the payment. They reached an agreement but the Spanish PP goverment decided at first not to pay. Then they paid. Anyhow the problem was economic and not political in the same way the central Spanish goverment has problems with some project about roads, railroads, etc with many of Comunidades Autónomas goverments. And yes, it's true there are some Portuguese groups claiming Olivenza, so that territorial disputy should appear in ] but not in Spain because Spain and Spanish people doesn't have problems with Olivenza. | |||
Let me get this straight: | |||
# a territorial claim by Osama Bin Laden is on the same footing as a claim by a neighbouring country. | |||
# a dispute that people on one side are not generally aware of does not need to be discussed in connection to that side. | |||
# the fact that the side having de facto control of the territory "doesn't have a problem" with it (and why should they?) means it should not be mentioned in connection with it | |||
I don't think any of these arguments make sense, and all three are to some degree offensive to Portugal. The mention of Olivenza is appropriate in an article about Spain, all the more so if it would result in educating us Spaniards about our own history. ] 21:30, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) | |||
*The problem here is that Olivenza is not claimed by Portugal. There does not exist a formal claim from the Portuguese government (unlike the Gibraltar case), and the claim is not supported by the Portuguese people. Olivenza is claimed by minoritary nationalist groups in Portugal. | |||
So I guess the information can lead to misunderstanding among the people who is not aware of the issue, and therefore, I will remove it. | |||
Oh Montrealais, | |||
I am a little bit tired of foreign people who try to explain us how our country works. I am from Extremadura, from a city 20 km away from Olivenza. And you have not a clue about what you are talking about | |||
: *I happen to leave in that same country and I do believe that we need some help to understand how your country "works". Please, tell me more about Olivenza. | |||
It seems to me that everything about ] (or Olivença...) is explained in the article about it (at least if it isn't vandalised!). Check it out! ] | |||
== Religion == | |||
There is no point to include the data from the CIA World Factbook in the religion section. The info from the CIA World Factbook is clearly wrong. It is not true that 94% of Spaniards are catholic. If an official Spanish poll in 2002 (performed when the right-wing and pro-catholic PP party was in power) says that 80% of Spaniards consider herself as catholic, it is clear that this value is closer to reality than 94%. | |||
If you want to say that 94% of Spaniards are baptised, maybe I would accept the deal. | |||
:I went in and added data from the latest CIS poll (someone had already done that, but I rearranged stuff a lot). I think the best readability is achieved by writing running test at the top ''avoiding statistics as much as possible'', and then conclude with detailed statistics. — ] 15:26, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC) | |||
I think the issue here is that many Spaniards use very different and looser criteria to identify themselves as Catholics than is used outside of Spain. So looking at the raw statistic that 80% of Spaniards consider themselves Catholics is very misleading to people who don't understand what being Catholic means to a Spaniard. I have added a couple of paragraphs which hopefully help to bring some clarity to this. ] 29 June 2005 13:28 (UTC) | |||
== Link to wikitravel == | |||
I would like to make a link to the spain article from wikitravel. How I make this?--] 19:45, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC) | |||
:I fixed it for you. You just have to add a "<nowiki>{{wikitravel}}</nowiki>" tag, preferably in the External Links section. The link is automatically generated. =] – ] 01:27, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC) | |||
==Sanity!== | |||
Good to see that Spain has good levels of sanity http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Spain&curid=26667&diff=0&oldid=0. (Presumably it should be sanitation, but I'm going to leave it there for a while - just for the amusement factor.) ] | ] 13:56, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC) | |||
Hahaha I think sanity is not one of the main features of the Spanish people. I will improve this | |||
==Flag== | |||
I uploaded the flag from encarta. It is better that the current or CIA counter parts. | |||
] | |||
== Identities == | |||
The on "institutions and autonomous communities" was conducted in September 2002. The section on "nationalist and regionalist sentiments" is well worth looking at in relation to the ''Identities'' section of the article. — ] 19:00, 2005 Jan 22 (UTC) | |||
== The end of the article has disappeared!!! == | |||
The paragraphs of Culture, Rankings and templates have disappeared. Could anyone repair this? --] 09:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
Maybe someone deleted it. | |||
==Vandalism== | |||
Removed vandalism---] 23:13, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
==Mistake== | |||
The sentence "(for instance, some have their own educational and health systems, others do not)" is wrong since all Autonomous Communities have already their own education and health systems. Anyway "have their own" sounds odd to me because Ministries of Education and Health exist... maybe it would be better to say that the Autonomous Communities "manage" or something like this. | |||
==President or PM== | |||
All the bio articles use President. This one needs to as well to conform, wikipedia should not be using President in one place and PM in others. The Spanish clearly use the word Presidente not the words Primer Ministro. While they use a system similar but by no means identical to the British I don't see that as relevant. We need the common usage word not a word that will supposedly of itself explain the type of system the Spanish have, --] 17:46, May 19, 2005 (UTC) | |||
: In Spain, "''Presidente del gobierno''" (literary "president of government") is the same meaning as "Premier Minister". "''Jefe del Estado''" is the same meaning as the "Head of State", wich in some states is the same as "President". --] 17:50, 19 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
The important thing is to be consistent throughout the series of articles, including ],--] 18:24, May 19, 2005 (UTC) | |||
::We should change everything to "Prime Minister", which is the correct translation of ''presidente del gobierno'' according to my translation teacher at University, who was right. — ] 18:29, 19 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
::If we wan to do that as a consensus that is fine with me, but lets start with ], which will need an admin to change. I don't oppose changin that article name, and if it does change then is the time to change all the other articles, including this one, --] 18:41, May 19, 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Let's start with the articles that don't require admin intervention, by which time an admin may step in to do those that require it. — ] 19:03, 19 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I strongly disagree. I think we need to start with the list article. As there appears to be consensus this should be easy enough to persuade an admin to do. Glaring inconsistency merely weakens Misplaced Pages's reputation, and otherwise I can see the list won't get changed. So please start there, --] 19:07, May 19, 2005 (UTC) | |||
The problem is not helped by having 2 articles: ] and ]. ] is still open but ] is a redirect. I am highly sceptical about having 2 articles listing this office's holders, | |||
::Do you realize that back in the time of the 2nd Republic there was a ''Presidente de la República'' and also a ''Presidente del Gobierno''? What does the ''List of Presidents of Spain'' contain, then? And remember that Franco was ''Generalísimo'' and ''Caudillo'' but never ''Presidente'', and his heads of Government were called ''Presidente del Gobierno''. | |||
::I think it is best (and least ambiguous) to have a ] and a ], plus a disambiguation page at ] and a redirect at ]. The same goes for the ''list'' articles. Regarding ] vs. ], bear inmind that the EU uses these titles because, for instance, there are both Monarchies and Republics within Europe, and any other usage would be confusing or misleading. — ] 19:56, 2005 May 19 (UTC) | |||
:There is no rush to rename ], as its title is not too bad. It is an over-literal translation, but at least it is clear that the head of government is referred to, rather than the head of state which implied by the English word "President". In this article, however, you are reverting to a version that implies that Zapatero is the President of Spain. — ] 19:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
::OK, I see you've done some moving about. ] is a bad name still. The "Government" part is redundant. A Prime Minister is the Head of Government. You also need to fix all the now numerous redirects. — ] 19:29, 19 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Fixed the redirects, but there is clearly still a naming issue (that has rumbled on for years). All I want is consistency, Miguel's head of government sounds good, --] 20:01, May 19, 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Muslim Spain == | |||
Whoa, Muslims controlled the Iberian peninsula for 700 years, and we only have two sentences on this? I would love to learn more about this if anyone could write more. ] 1 July 2005 15:52 (UTC) | |||
I agree. In fact I came to the talk page to make the same point. I am no expert in history, but I know that there is an extremely rich one of Islamic Spain. It was a great society in its day; I've always found it very interesting. Also, the article's notes about linguistic ties to Arabic are understated. It was not merely about a few borrowed words. I have read that the Moors fundementally changed the way Spanish is pronounced, in particular, the current Spanish pronunciation of the letters J and R and possibly others owe a large part to them. Also, I'm pretty sure that many Arabic words entered other European languages through the Spanish. But I am not knowledgable enough to be an expert about any of this or write about it in any detail. --Anonymous 3 July 2005 21:43 (UTC) | |||
:Don't speak about Arab influence to a Spaniard, I was literally attacked in Madrid for asking a group of Spaniards what influence Arabs had on their country. | |||
You just came across the wrong type of people. | |||
== J (zsh) to h sound == | |||
I think J used to be X and pronounced as in French/Portugese, something like zsh? Jabon used to be xabon pronounced zshabon. ? --] 03:02, 15 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
It's no use trying to tell a English-speaking person how the J is pronounced in Spanish... | |||
J in Spanish is pronounced as G in dutch (Gratis, Golf, Gulit, etc... in Dutch), and the letter is called "jota". It has nothing to do with X or zsh. In Latin America, they use to pronounce it as an H. ] 21:09, August 27, 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Sorry, svest, but you're way off. The "jota" is pronounced the same throughout the spanish-speaking world, as a fricative, 'h'-type sound(not sure of the precise linguistic classification, I think it might be "voiceless fricative"). The 'x' is where a divergence has occurred in pronunciation over the centuries. This is most obvious in the Spain-Spanish spelling of Mexico--"Mejico". Most of us know that Mexico is pronounced ME-hico in Spanish. What we don't know is that in Spain, the spelling Mexico would be prounounced ME-shico. This is why in Spain you don't find any Xaviers--it's spelled Javier now. In mexico and latin america, however, the x spelling is still quite common. Looks a lot cooler, too, in my opinion. ] 16:18, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::The example of Mexico/Mejico is a good one. In Mexico City they pronounce it ''Me'''h'''ico'' while in Madrid they pronounce it ''Me'''j'''ico''. And as I said also that the ''jota'' is pronounced simply as in dutch ''gratis'' in Spain. The ''jota'' is not pronounced the same through the spanish-speaking world and I've been speaking spanish for 28 years. The differnece can be found even inside mainland spain. | |||
::Therefore, j in spain is as g in dutch or as if you pronounce ''Khomeini'' in english. j in latin america is as h. I am listening to ''guajira Guantanamera'' now and ''guajira'' is pronounced ''gauhira'' by the cuban Groupo Raison. | |||
::The X is another story. In mainland spain it is pronounced somehow like ''ch'' as for ''Charles'' in english. The example is ] the football player. So, in spain x it is still pronounced ch. Cheers -- ] 17:26, August 28, 2005 (UTC) <sup>]</sup> | |||
:::Most of what you're saying makes sense, but I don't understand why you keep comparing 'j' to various hard-g sounds. There is nowhere in the spanish-speaking world where a 'j' makes a hard 'g' sound. ] 14:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::I am sorry for the confusion. I compare 'j' with 'g' in dutch as it is pronounced the same. It's not the hard-g but the soft one. You are right of course that in Spanish there is no soft 'g' but only hard one as for 'G'loria Estefan. But, as I said, the best example is the one in dutch when you pronounce 'G'ratis or the one in English when you pronounce 'Kh'omeini. I am sure everybody knows how Khomeini is pronounced in all languages of the world. Cheers. ] 17:26, August 28, 2005 (UTC) <sup>]</sup> | |||
==G8== | |||
Spain has already surpassed 2 G8 countries are there any plans to let Spain in the G8? | |||
I don't know, but I think that has much more good reasons to be part of G8 than Russia... | |||
== ] == | |||
I couldn't find any spain related notice board, so posting it here. I have nominated ] for next week's ]. pamri 17:02, August 16, 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Its the current CCOTW. Plese help improve it. pamri 16:50, August 30, 2005 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
Hi folks. I've just started the ]. I need some help to develop it and keep it updated. Cheers - ] 22:29, August 21, 2005 (UTC) <sup>]</sup> | |||
== The map == | |||
The map included in this article is almost ridiculous. It lacks some important cities, and shows a tiny town were there should be another city (Pasajes -> St. Sebastian). Canary Islands are not even displayed. Should be changed ASAP. | |||
== Tartessos == | |||
I think Tartessos should be elaborated more int he article, it is afterall the first civilization of Iberia and possibly western Europe... | |||
-] |
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Changing the name of Spain to Andalusia
Spain is a colonial name of Andalusia of the Islamic Caliphate. Its not exist. Please change the name to Andalusia the not colonial name 188.64.206.0 (talk) 15:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- Dear Misplaced Pages user. Kindly check accurate sources prior to making this kind of comments. While the Spanish constitution does not establish an official name for the state of Spain and some others are commonly used in it. While the origin of the word might be uncertain, the hypothesis of the Phoenician word "Land of rabbits" Spania is commonly accepted. Dual2402 (talk) 08:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hello. We, following the guidelines of WP:COMMONNAME, go by what places are most commonly called, not what someone reasons out they should be called. Largoplazo (talk) 12:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Lads, you took the bait. Look where the IP is from. Look at what happened between Spain and that place on 28 May 2024. WP:DENY. Unknown Temptation (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- @User:Unknown Temptation How do I look where the IP is from? Uporządnicki (talk) 02:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a reason you felt the need to be cryptic instead of just saying that the IP is from Israel and it was the day that Spain recognized Palestine? Largoplazo (talk) 12:17, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- Don't feed the trolls. Miiversal (talk) 12:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Showing the name in the regional languages
As the spanish constitution states, these languages are only acknowledged as coofficial in their respective autonomous comunities, furthermore, neither asturian nor aragonese have the status of cooficial languages in Asturias or Aragon respectivly. I would also sugest that if it's decided to keep the name in the cooficial languages, it is also shown in valencian, or atleast changing the label from "catalan" to "catalan/valencian". 185.224.49.224 (talk) 22:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- The name is translated into languages that are native to the place, not necessarily official. As for the change you suggest, treating Valencian and Catalan separately makes absolutely no sense (just as I and many other people have already told you many times in several other places). The choice of the name "Catalan/Valencia" over "Catalan" is in this case not up for discussion, for this name is automatically generated when you use the template for IPA: Catalan pronunciation: . And the name this template automatically generates is "Catalan". So if you want this to be changed, the ones you should contact are (I guess) the administrators. That would change the wording for every page in which this template is inserted. Agpshi (talk) 14:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Your edit was made disrupting the consensus and deleting something that has been here for years.
- I have accepted your point of view in the page languages of Spain (albeit you were the only one which didn't agree with me and you changed it MONTHS LATER) but now I did the same here and only 2 weeks later.
- Also notice someone else deleted your edits and completely wiped out Valencian, which didn't even allow Catalan/Valencian to be together, and as you might know, that's an entire disrespect movement for the Valencian people but also for the entire Valencian Community culture, history and traditions.
- The Spanish Constitution and the Valencian Statute of Autonomy officially call it Valencian. We both know this and neither of us have a problem with this. From a linguistical point of view, they are 2 names for the same language (both Catalan and Valencian are valid, as you know as well and as the sources refer) but someone after you made a further edit deleting all of that thus making it even unmatchable with the sources, as the sources mention Valencian.
- I am not the user from above (he is using an IP, I don't use IPs... if I want to edit, I use my account) you did first an edit on 7th of July in this page deleting all of the stuff mentioned above without consensus. Okay, now it's time to reach that consensus if you want to make these changes. Until then, you have to leave the page as it was before, as the discussion we had in the page Languages of Spain as you surely remember. Then, even you with your own account changed it to Valencian/Catalan or Catalan/Valencian but a day later another user completely wiped out Valencian. And that's not acceptable. LucenseLugo (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- You don't even have to care about what I've wrote above as that info from the infobox was added by a permanently banned/blocked user:
- MylowattsIAm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- The info regarding the official regional languages is already mentioned on the FIRST note of this page. If you still want to change Valencian somehow (remember it was here for years, check the edit history) please explain your point and reach a consensus with more people than just you and me. As I prefer to leave it as it was, since the official Valencian Statute of Autonomy calls it Valencian and in the languages box I've clearly stated (as it was before) that Catalan/Valencian are the name for the same language, just officially called Catalan in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands and Valencian in the Valencian Community. LucenseLugo (talk) 22:48, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, sure, you are not that user. I am just going to say a couple of things:
- When you say that my edit "was made disrupting the consensus and deleting something that has been here for years", and when you ask me to "remember it was here for years, check the edit history", perhaps I should remind you that the first and only edit that treated them as separate languages was made on March 8th 2024. Before that, only the four co-official languages were shown (Occitan, Catalan, Basque and Galician) and that is the version that has been on the page for ages. You also said "linguists use" or "the Spanish consitution says", to which I can only answer that perhaps you should take a look at the constitution (which never mentions any language other than Spanish) and to the linguistic bibliography (which you are clearly unfamiliar with and which, for the most part, uses only the name "Catalan" and definitely always avoids writing in a way that makes them look like different languages).
- Consensus is to be sought in order to properly reflect different scientific approaches to the same phenomenon. If you say the Earth is flat and I say it is round, Misplaced Pages will not try to reach a middle term between us: it will reflect my view and, perhaps, mention yours as a pseudoscientific doctrine with some social relevance. The case of Catalan/Valencian is not different. You just cannot list them separately just as you cannot list Spanish and Castillian, or Romanian and Moldovan, or Flemish and Dutch, separately. Agpshi (talk) 10:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- First of all, keep doing again these reverts trying to push your OWN POV (as you were the only one who did these changes in 7th July 2024 without any consensus) and you will be reported.
- And second, I won't read all of that BS honestly. I have seen now you accuse me of being a sockpuppet of several accounts which I didn't even know. I understand you are clinically obsessed with me because I am strongly against your extremely biased agenda. Since you've made it personal, wait for consensus from other people. Ciao ciao. LucenseLugo (talk) 14:20, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- What I won't tolerate, though, is yourself spitting out on such an important page on Misplaced Pages and making silly edits and repeating the same info twice as well as evading the official name of the language spoken in a specifical region just because you're biased and you can't accept it, the sources are there to back it up. Try to be 1% neutral and read Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not.
- @Agpishi:, that change you have just made (reverting all my edits just in a "instant rage" for that personal bias you have against me) was adding back a change made by a user who is PERMANENTLY BLOCKED: Revision as of 07:08, 21 May 2024
- MylowattsIAm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- So if your desire is to keep what blocked trolls/sockpuppets is, redo again my edits. If that's not your desire, then EXPLAIN YOURSELF, explain why do you want to change that, why do you want to repeat something twice and wait for consensus. Adéu! LucenseLugo (talk) 15:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Pinging correct username, @Agpshi:. I agree that the current version is the stable one, and the changes that were reverted should not be reinstated without consensus to do so on this page. William Avery (talk) 16:10, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. The other one was breaking the stable version and it was also instroduced by a now permanently blocked user.
- @Agpshi: Please engage in this talk section and explain your point before doing further edits. As you can see, I'm not the only user who has noticed that your edit was breaking the stable version. I did not accuse you, though, because that was added by another user. But don't revert stable edits without consensus. LucenseLugo (talk) 23:10, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Pinging correct username, @Agpshi:. I agree that the current version is the stable one, and the changes that were reverted should not be reinstated without consensus to do so on this page. William Avery (talk) 16:10, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Spain is not a cultural superpower.
This Misplaced Pages article says that Spain is a cultural superpower. But the citations given in the article (citations 14 and 15) only claim that Spain was a global superpower in the Age of Discovery (15th thru 17th centuries) like Britain, Portugal and France, and a world heritage power. Being a global superpower (like the U.S. is now) and a world heritage power are not the same thing as being a cultural superpower. The people of the Iberian penisnsula and peoples in Europe all the way up to Britain were granted Roman citizenship by the Latins during the Roman Empire which started BCE. This Misplaced Pages article also says Spain has a cultural wealth, but it attributes it to Rome (its Latin language and culture), the Visigoth settlers (who spoke Latin), and the Muslims who conquored the Visigoths and started speaking Latin. Spain, having used Italy's Latin language and culture, does not qualify it or any other European country, except Italy, as being the cultural superpower it is.
I've just checked out the Culture section of Misplaced Pages's Italy article. Italy is a cultural superpower. The valid citation 333 on the Italy article lists The Washington Post, The Australian, the former Foreign Affairs Minister Giulio Terzi, and U.S. President Barack Obama attesting to the fact that Italy is a cultural superpower. Italy gave the world the Latin alphabet which was derived from the Etruscans and Greek alphabet which was parented by the Phonecian alphabet and ultimately Egyptian hieroglyphs. Italy also gave the world the Gregorian calendar (a revision of Caesar's Julian calendar), and a court system (a judge, selected jury and protracted trials) which improved upon the Greek's laymen system which, itself, was an improvement on the Middle East's system.
It's safe to say that Italy was the last of the cultural superpowers. Its capital, Rome, gave us Latin which derived not only into Italian, but many other European languages including English. Italy's Latin alphabet and calendar are used worldwide. The Greeks gave us Western Culture and the Greek alphabet. The Middle East gave us the Phonecian culture and alphabet. And, of course, the Egyptians gave us their culture and hieroglyphs. All cultural superpowers. Countries that use the Latin culture of Italy, whether it be the U.S., Spain or the UK, are not cultural superpowers. Superpowers during epochs, yes. Cultural superpowers, as Italy is, no. This article needs to be cleaned up. Its first section is unnecessarily misleading and fluffy. Claudio di Roma (talk) 11:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- As I already told you, these are not exclusive things. Being a cultural supwerpower is not a status owned by Italy or countries home to ancient civilisations. Countries have continued to produce culture up to this day. The US is unquestionably a cultural superpower, due to the impact that country has on modern science, cinema, pop music etc. That may not be the classical culture of Italy, Greece and Egypt, but it is still a very influential culture, just of a different type. If the problem is the need of proper sources to back up the claim for Spain I would stick with that, without going into other reasonings, cause you are making very extreme claims: Spain certainly has cultural wealth as it has a big body of Spanish art, Spanish literature etc.; English uses the Latin script, but it's not a Latin language. Having been influenced by Latin culture does not disqualify Spain, Portugal, the UK or whatever from being a cultural superpower on their own. The article does have questionable things that have been introduced over time by agenda-driven socks and we can deal with that, but that's another issue. Regarding the lack of a source directly calling Spain a cultural superpower I have added a "further citation needed" for Spain at the section where the "cultural superpower" references links to, but I am against removing the passage as i don't think it will be problematic for users to find such a source. Barjimoa (talk) 14:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do we have a source for this statement? Moxy🍁 15:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, that's fair. I will watch out for the editor you mentioned from Spain who makes grandiose edits here. I agree, he's the one making the absurd claims. But, remember, cinema comes from Europe not North America. And Pop music (popular music) comes from many nations. I think the black people whose ancestors were brought to the American continent are among the most productive people on that continent. Specifically in the USA. They gave us Gospel, Blues, Jazz, Swing, Boogie Woogie, Rock and Roll, Disco, Hip Hop.
- Whenever I think of the US, I'm reminded of black people. Probably from seeing "Gone with the Wind". Black people's music is always enjoyable. The buzz over here is Kamala will win. It would be a wonderful thing if a black lady landed the job as the first US female president. And, of couse, the Native Americans are making their way up to the US border. They're arriving in caravans and the whole world is watching. J.Lo is very Native American-looking. It would be nice to see a Native American woman (or man) in the White House soon. Claudio di Roma (talk) 16:48, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- The cited sources don't say it's a superpower and, in the absence of reliable sources calling it such (and probably even if there are any) it's WP:PUFFERY that we don't need to echo. Further, I looked through the subsequent sections to see if there was any information to substantiate the claim. Nearly all the periods, styles, movements covered are from the past, some of them centuries ago, and the majority of the people named are dead. About the only thing current is the movie industry, so maybe it's a cinematic superpower. And tapas. Tapas everywhere. But art? Music? Literature? Poetry? Architecture? Television? Possibly in the Spanish-speaking world. But, as I said, going by the article, it's mostly in the past. So Spain was long a cultural powerhouse. Still, I'm approaching this from a WP:OR point of view. Sources are key. Largoplazo (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like it's been here for some time (although its been contentious and reverted multiple times) .... Let's see if anyone can come up with a source. If not it should be removed as a weird Misplaced Pages construct. I see on the main page about cultural superpower there has also contentious edits that have been discussed on the talk page to no avail. Moxy🍁 21:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, Moxy, I take back what I said. After checking the history of this, I have found that Spain as a cultural superpower was indeed added (here and in the page Power (international relations)) by socks of User:JamesOredan. In talk:Power (international relations) he used his sock Venezia Friulano and another suspected sock TechnicianGB to push back against users who objected to its introduction. This time I had not realized it was him, sorry. Barjimoa (talk) 06:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Largoplazo "About the only thing current is the movie industry, so maybe it's a cinematic superpower. And tapas. Tapas everywhere. But art? Music? Literature? Poetry? Architecture? Television?"
- Spain currently is the second-most visited country in the world, with 600 Millions of people speaking its language, including a huge number of foreign students.
- Search better sources or delete the statement, but have some respect for the country.
- @Claudio di Roma
- "Spain, having used Italy's Latin language and culture, does not qualify it or any other European country, except Italy, as being the cultural superpower it is."
- Honestly, this discredits you as someone educated in history. I don't know why Spain attracts so much attention, contempt and criticism from other nationalities. In recent months it seems to be the norm in this article. OceanStones (talk) 14:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Spain attracks tourists because it's a major sellout. It's extremely inexpensive and sells land to other EU members and the British. Especially the British. The British have holiday homes and permanent homes in Spain because they purchased property there. Now, the Spaniards are complaining there are too many foreigners in their country. Well, the British and the other EU members got what they paid for; their land and homes in Spain. They bought it, they own it. Claudio di Roma (talk) 14:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- The price factor does not make sense, Spain has relatively similar prices to Italy and Greece. UK citizens with property (House) in Spain does not exceed 13,000, however, each year Spain receives ~14 Million Britons, and 300,000 live in Spain regularly, so your argument that there is a lot of tourism in Spain because "the country sells its land" seems quite weak.
- As @Barjimoa told you, it is not necessary for you to despise Spain to defend your points.
- I'm not going to build more on this non-constructive Off-Topic.
- My opinion is that this statement (cultural superpower) should be deleted if It angry you, and if someone later finds an acceptable source, recover it. OceanStones (talk) 15:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- As I said, Spain has lots of cultural wealth, we don't need a source to establish the obvious, many people worldwide study Spanish arts and visit Spain (and no, it's not due to British buying houses)...that qualifies in my book for having cultural influence and the arguments against it provided by Claudio are not on point here, as they are based on the idea that if Greece and Italy influenced others then the others cannot be cultural powerhouses on their own, if Europe influenced the US then the US cannot be a cultural powerhouse...that kind of reasoning obviously is a fallacy. The only issue I aknowledge is that the specific statement "Spain is cultural superpower" was introduced by blocked socks without a source. But this is a matter of form, not of content. We can make a similar point without using a specialistic concept. Denying the existence of Spanish cultural influence and wealth is just plainly wrong. Barjimoa (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- A country isn't a cultural superpower because people speak the language that originated there or because people visit it. The overwhelming majority of native Spanish speakers aren't Spanish, and most people who learn it have Latin America, not Spain, in mind. Millions visit Iceland, does that make it a cultural superpower? Regarding your comment about my knowledge of history, that brings up exactly one of my points: the sentence is in the present tense. Spain had a huge cultural impact. I'm talking about today. Largoplazo (talk) 16:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- We can remove that sentence if it's/as long as it is sourceless, apparently no one has a problem with that. Keeping the context of Spain having a significant culture is what matters, no need to fight over a specific definition. I personally was just pushing back against the bias of that user, who, to my shock, has been blocked for being himself the guy who introduced that very sentence in the first place. He was trolling and flaming all of us. Barjimoa (talk) 16:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Largoplazo It seems like you're confusing being a political/economic Superpower with being a cultural Superpower. Language and tourism are obviously important factors to be a cultural Superpower.
- Language is probably one of the most obvious cultural projections that exist for a country. It is not credible to say that people study Spanish without thinking about Spain. Also comparing Iceland's tourism (about 3 million a year) with Spain (85 million a year) seems quite absurd to me. Spain is the second-most visited country in the World precisely because of its cultural influence.
- Its not even a serious debate. It is quite obvious that Spain is one of the major cultural powers. The only issue is that the current sources do not affirm that and it was added by a Sockpuppet that has flamed here against Spain. OceanStones (talk) 16:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you think I'm confusing the two then you can't possibly have really read my original message, where I touched on nearly all the subtopics in the Culture section and said nothing about politics or the economy, at all Largoplazo (talk) 17:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh my God! People sometimes think of Spain! They're aware of it!
- Re
It's not even a serious debate. It is quite obvious ...
: The fact that multiple people disagree with you and that I have clearly listed substantive counterpoints indicates ipso facto that neither of those sentences is true. Largoplazo (talk) 16:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- PD: And all this ignoring the fact that Spain has also an important weight in sports, gastronomy and music (Ex. Flamenco, which is more popular outside of Spain than inside), lmao OceanStones (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why are you now being the one causing a flame? The way you speak strongly reminds me of the historic blocked user of which Claudio has been established to be a sock...and you have been created while there is an ongoing investigation on his socks AND a debate at this talk page caused by him...I strongly suspect you have been specifically created to contribute to this whole flame. Like, are you are playing all sides in this? That's some next level. User:Bbb23, can you please check him too? What's going on here? I feel like I, user:Largoplazo and user:Moxy are being trolled hard into this. I have no words. Barjimoa (talk) 16:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly who have I attacked? I don't see any of my words as an attack.
- The most I have said was "it discredits you as educated in history" and it was directed at the now blocked @Claudio di Roma.
- Feel free to check whatever you want. OceanStones (talk) 17:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I am convinced that's you. The way you speak. I don't even know what to say. This whole exchange was just pure flame for no reason. Barjimoa (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Imagine how desperate for attention a person would be to spend so much time creating dozens of sockpuppets and engaging in such lame antics. Truly pathetic. Carlstak (talk) 00:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Carlstak, it's even worse, he has had hundreds. Barjimoa (talk) 08:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sad. No one with a life outside WP would bother. Carlstak (talk) 11:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Carlstak, it's even worse, he has had hundreds. Barjimoa (talk) 08:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Imagine how desperate for attention a person would be to spend so much time creating dozens of sockpuppets and engaging in such lame antics. Truly pathetic. Carlstak (talk) 00:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I am convinced that's you. The way you speak. I don't even know what to say. This whole exchange was just pure flame for no reason. Barjimoa (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why are you now being the one causing a flame? The way you speak strongly reminds me of the historic blocked user of which Claudio has been established to be a sock...and you have been created while there is an ongoing investigation on his socks AND a debate at this talk page caused by him...I strongly suspect you have been specifically created to contribute to this whole flame. Like, are you are playing all sides in this? That's some next level. User:Bbb23, can you please check him too? What's going on here? I feel like I, user:Largoplazo and user:Moxy are being trolled hard into this. I have no words. Barjimoa (talk) 16:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Spain attracks tourists because it's a major sellout. It's extremely inexpensive and sells land to other EU members and the British. Especially the British. The British have holiday homes and permanent homes in Spain because they purchased property there. Now, the Spaniards are complaining there are too many foreigners in their country. Well, the British and the other EU members got what they paid for; their land and homes in Spain. They bought it, they own it. Claudio di Roma (talk) 14:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like it's been here for some time (although its been contentious and reverted multiple times) .... Let's see if anyone can come up with a source. If not it should be removed as a weird Misplaced Pages construct. I see on the main page about cultural superpower there has also contentious edits that have been discussed on the talk page to no avail. Moxy🍁 21:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Wait, User:Claudio di Roma has been blocked for being himself one of the many socks of the guy who introduced the claim, that's quite a turn of events. Barjimoa (talk) 16:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Let's remove it from the lead altogether and in the body remove and a cultural superpower.(bad sources) and replace it with Spain is a Western country and one of the major Latin countries of Europe and has been noted for its international cultural influence.Moxy🍁 17:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's fine to me, it's the same thing really, we don't have to fight over specific words and concepts. Especially considered we are very likely being trolled. Barjimoa (talk) 17:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- The claim seems to have been introduced with this edit by User:Kfager1, who was later blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Jobas, but who a cursory review of their contributions doesn't reveal to have had an special interest in aggrandizing Spain. Claudio di Roma has made only this one edit to this article, and it was to remove "cultural" in front of "superpower" and the change the phrase, properly, from present tense to past tense. So Claudio di Roma didn't introduce the claim and didn't do anything here to magnify Spain. Largoplazo (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Largoplazo , the claim was introduced by VeneziaFriulano and TechnicianGB at the Power (international relations) page after a talk. It turns out that Claudio di Roma is a sock of James Oredan, hence of Venezia. He was trolling us. He was playing both sides. Barjimoa (talk) 16:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barjimoa: If you're satisfied that the evidence is clear, are you going to file a sockpuppet investigation report? Largoplazo (talk 19:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well now luckily there is no need to, because it's been being noticed and blocked for being a sock of James/Venezia by admins independently of this. Barjimoa (talk) 19:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barjimoa: If you're satisfied that the evidence is clear, are you going to file a sockpuppet investigation report? Largoplazo (talk 19:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Largoplazo , the claim was introduced by VeneziaFriulano and TechnicianGB at the Power (international relations) page after a talk. It turns out that Claudio di Roma is a sock of James Oredan, hence of Venezia. He was trolling us. He was playing both sides. Barjimoa (talk) 16:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
References
- "Countries With the Most Cultural Influence". U.S. News. January 1, 2024. Retrieved August 7, 2024.
Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2024
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Request to add a new wiki subsection titled
Main article: Mass media in Spainunder Spain#Culture.
42.60.108.206 (talk) 12:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I kind of think this is summed up by the reference to Culture of Spain and unneeded, I also think that there's no clear section heading to add it under, but I'll leave this open if someone disagrees. Bestagon ⬡ 17:28, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: I agree with Bestagon. The quality of the Mass media in Spain article is pretty low, and there's not much it has to offer compared to what Culture of Spain already has. Mz7 (talk) 01:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Major metropolitan areas in Spain
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Spain's capital and largest city is Madrid, and other major urban areas include Barcelona, Valencia, and Zaragoza. Manuelfr (talk) 22:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
Major metropolitan areas in Spain are Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and SevillaCite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page)., but Zaragoza isn't. So, you must change Zaragoza to Seville
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Amortias (T)(C) 05:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- https://es.m.wikipedia.org/Anexo:%C3%81reas_metropolitanas_de_Espa%C3%B1a Manuelfr (talk) 07:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Origns of the name of Spain
The idea that this name means Land of Rabbits is ludicrous and has no bases in the etymology and travel of language. The original name of the city of Isfahan or Esphanhan in Iran was originally Sepana and since the Mithriac traditions were so prevalent in that region it affords and validates to view the origin of this name from that perspective. We know from documented evidence that various cities is Spain were established by the Goths and the Alans, notably Catalonia which as GothAlania, a group of the Iranian people known as Sakas (later to be called Saxons) and these interactions were cultural, religious and linguistic. The issue seems to be that the origins of names do not go further than certain geographical areas and tend to attempt to restrict the etymology within certain geographic boundaries. This is a skewed view and unreliable as it excludes the etymology to elsewhere other than it's nearest point. Konradbertam (talk) 00:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Are there reliable sources that support any of your claims? Are you taking into account that the Phoenicians were referring to the area as Spaniya many centuries before the arrival of the Goths and Alans and possibly before the name "Isfahan" came into use in what is now Iran? As for what you find ludicrous, why? There are clearly plenty of researchers who don't find it ludicrous. Largoplazo (talk) 01:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- "A group of the Iranian people known as Sakas (later to be called Saxons)"? You must be joking. Utter nonsense. I have corrected the information per the given source, and added info from Developmental Biology in Hispania (Spain & Portugal) by Juan Arechaga, published by the International Journal of Developmental Biology. Also, as I stated in my edit summary, we should not be citing journalistic content from a news site for etymological info, but rather the experts quoted in the news article. Carlstak (talk) 04:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages articles that use British English
- Old requests for peer review
- B-Class level-3 vital articles
- Misplaced Pages level-3 vital articles in Geography
- B-Class vital articles in Geography
- B-Class Spain articles
- Top-importance Spain articles
- All WikiProject Spain pages
- B-Class Europe articles
- High-importance Europe articles
- WikiProject Europe articles
- B-Class country articles
- WikiProject Countries articles