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Revision as of 23:53, 24 February 2004 editMir Harven (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,037 edits on Rossovich ethnic backoground and Serbian sleazers (I know-wiki love etc...but, it's against my nature)← Previous edit Latest revision as of 17:02, 12 November 2024 edit undoTom.Reding (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Template editors3,815,464 editsm →top: blp=yes has priority over blp=other; cleanupTag: AWB 
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{{Talk header}}
I see that the user from 67.x.y.z has been having a field day with this page. While I can appreciate enthusiasm, some of the edits are on a very slippery slope.
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=List|blp=yes|listas=Croats, List Of|1=
For example:
{{WikiProject Biography}}
{{WikiProject Croatia|importance=top}}
{{WikiProject Lists|class=list|importance=low}}
}}


{{Controversial}}
* ] is alleged to have been born on the Croatian island of ], to a Slavic family called ''Polić'' natively but changed to ''de Polo'' in order to naturalize to the Venetian government (Dalmatia was mostly ruled by ] those days), and later moved to Venice themselves. The de Polo's still live in Korčula today (my mother happens to be from there so I know for sure), and there's a house that's a small tourist attraction because it's "the birthplace of Marco Polo", but whether the explorer himself was (or the extent of his heritage) from this family is not so certain AFAIK.


== Criteria ==
* ] was from ] (''Gradišće''), a province in easternmost Austria today that's known to be inhabited by many Croats (''gradišćanski Hrvati''), and many of his compositions are recorded by him as coming from folk songs. There are families in Croatia called Hajdinjak and similar, so many speculate that Haydns were originally Croats from Burgenland, but again, this is not at all certain.


Currently, "List of Croats" is defined in the lead as:
* ] was from ], and he was definitely a famous citizen of a Croatian city, but it's pretty stretched to outright declare him Croat. See the long discussion on ].
: "list of prominent individuals who were Croatian citizens or of Croatian ancestry."
While "prominent" may be presumed to imply the ] criterion, this definition is not entirely unambiguous, and may be also problematic in some respects. Here are some questions that need to be answered:
# Do we want to include "Croatian citizens" or just ethnic Croats? (E.g. Nikola Tesla meets the former criterion, but not the latter.) There are arguments in favor of both options.
# Do we construe "Croatian citizens" broadly as not only people who are or were citizens of the Republic of Croatia (1991-present), but also all people who lived and were associated with the same territory? Again, Tesla was strictly speaking never a Croatian citizen, but could be reasonably considered one "retroactively".
# "Croatian ancestry" presumably means "<nowiki>] ancestry</nowiki>", but it is fairly clear that "person of Croatian ancestry"<>"Croat". Are all n-th generation Croats still Croats? Where do we draw the line? ] (]) 14:34, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


'''Split'''. List of Croats (ethnic Croats) ≠ List of Croatians (nationality).--] 14:44, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
* ] is speculated to be Croat by some French scientist apparently amicable towards the Croats in general, based on some Croatian-sounding terms used in his literature? Very stretched to say the least.


== Male or Female ==
* ] was from Croatia but was from a ] family (probably originally ] due to the last name), not Croat.


Hi Folks, I have a suggestion that affects the entire list. Given that that the non-Croat (or non-slavic at least) world may not be familiar with Croat names, what do you think of adding a (M) or (F) after each name? I'm half Croatian and grew up with a fair amount of influence from the Northern California Croat community, but even names like ] and ] stumped me.--] (]) 16:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I think I also saw several Croatian Jews listed -- the extent of their naturalization should probably be verified before declaring them Croats.


== Inferiority complex ==
Also there's ], who was not ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Croat. Conversely, ] was ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Serb. I suppose listing both kinds is the best compromise, but I'm not sure if that's the consensus.


While reading the history of changes of this article I've 'learned' that Leonardo, Michelangello, Napoleon, Brigitte Bardot, Charlie Chaplin ... were Croats. I know there are many editors suffering from the inferiority complex which can be an explanation why all these 'were' Croats. I tried to clean the list removing the names which cannot be put on this list(Schwarz - an Austrian Jew, Boscovic - an Italian, Andric - a Serb). Alas, I see the same name back in the list .
So, anyway, my point is: tread lightly. --] 17:46, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
<blockquote>
A sense of personal inferiority arising from conflict between the desire to be noticed and the fear of being humiliated.
In psychology, a complex, or cluster of repressed fears, described by Alfred Adler based on physical inferiority. The term is popularly used to describe general feelings of inferiority and the overcompensation that often ensues.
Adler described the complex as arising from the perceived inferiority of an organ or part of the body and leading to feelings of general inferiority. He believed that everyone suffered from inferiority feelings and that the desire or determination to relieve them determined people's behavior. Failure to deal with them could lead to neurotic symptoms.
</blockquote>
--] (]) 19:59, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


== Ivo Andric ==
As for John Malkovich- http://www.allstarz.org/~malkovich/financial.html
Even though of Croatian and Scottish descent, Malkovich had a relatively
typical Midwestern upbringing in the small Illinois town of Benton, some 300
miles south of Chicago. His father published a conservation magazine and his
mother ran the local newspaper. So there was no reason for the chubby and
much-ridiculed John to be interested in sophisticated European culture --
until he went to college. In 1976 he dropped out of a drama degree at
Illinois State University, moved to Chicago and co-founded with several old
friends the Steppenwolf Theatre Company, where he acted in and directed
works by classic and modern European authors. It would become one of the
most recognised regional groups in the US.


His mother was a Serbian, he refused to be listed as a Croatian in Yugoslav Encyclopedia. Please, respect his identity.--] (]) 23:16, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
As much as Malkovich values its tradition and way of life, he says Europe is
"not a place I take incredibly seriously: after all, it was the homeland of
the Inquisition, totalitarianism, genocide and the invention of several
bloody crusades". He also has harsh words for its media for what he deems
unfair treatment of the US.] 21:30, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
: Not only that, but he recently (2003) came to Croatia and commented publically on his two grandparents who emigrated from the country into the States. --] 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
:: And not only that: I remember that back in 1991, Malkovich made a TV spot (actually, it was conceived by Croatian-American artist Nenad Bach) wherein he recited IN CROATIAN first 5-7 lines of Croatian National anthem "Lijepa naša domovino". It was a sign of support for the Croatian struggle for independence in war against Serbian aggression.] 13:07, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
==Rename==


I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
It occurs to me that a better title for the page would be list of Croatians, because that doesn't imply ethnic nationalism, rather a link with the country, which may or may not be combined with ethnicity. And to avoid any claims of misappropriation, ethnic classification and/or name of political entity that controlled the place a person was from can be added next to each name. --] 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081011221504/http://www.sport5.co.il/articles.aspx?FolderID=64&docID=8505&lang=he to http://www.sport5.co.il/articles.aspx?FolderID=64&docID=8505&lang=he


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Done now. Should be reasonably uncontroversial now. --] 12:57, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)


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-----


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 16:14, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Eh, that anonymous user went through the whole page like a tornado again... among other questionable things, ] Croatian?? I googled and found some site from Herceg Novi saying he was the son of a Serb... brrr, this looks like another Pandora's box. --] 00:13, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)


== Malkovich Croat? ==
-----


Read the answer here (Up to today, I do not know whether I am Croat, Montenegrin, or Bosnian)
Found another odd case: ], an actor from California, had a great-great-grandfather who lived in Mo&#353;&#263;eni&#269;ka Draga (on the coast in the ]). His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina, but the aforementioned place is not. --] 22:31, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

:Quot"His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina". I suppose you mean http://www.us.imdb.com/name/nm0001685/bio ? This is a complete nonsense, added by some propagandist. There are no Rosovi&#263; Serbs in "Krajina", and one can very well see this by typing this surname into search window of Cro phonebooks, http://www.htnet.hr/imenik/fset.html . Well, type Rosovi&#263;, and you'll find 12 persons, all Croats (according to first names-one of them Hrvoje/Croat) in and around Moš&#263;eni&#263;ka Draga. Judging from clumsy syntax and pathetic effort to inform the public that "Krajina" (written as "Kranija") is not to be confused with Croatia or anything Croatian- it's pretty obvious that Serbian agitprop had been nosing around. I've seen Rossovich IMDB bio and there was no "Krajina" part. Then I've written in Wiki he was of Croatian ancestry. And, lo and behold- magically, "Krajina" ad appears on the Rossovich bio page. Coincidence. Yeah, in some parallel universe.] 23:53, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
''Kada je prvi put u nekim novinama napisano da sam hrvatskog podrijetla, majka mi je rekla da potječemo iz Crne Gore, za što do tada također nisam čuo''--] (]) 06:33, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

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Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 21:22, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

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== Requested move 21 July 2018 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''moved as requested''' per the discussion below. ]<small>]</small> 02:05, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
----

] → {{no redirect|List of people from Croatia}} – Per ], ], and ], we cannot commingle "people from Croatia" and "people with some Croatian ancestry"; the latter ] anyway. Talk pages of articles with ambiguous titles like this show a lot of dispute about inclusion, and it's caused by an impermissibly confused scope and a misleading title. This should move for ] with almost all of the rest of our "people from {{var|X}}" articles and categories. <small>The remaining "List of {{var|Label}}s" and "List of {{var|Label}} people" pages are being taken one RM at a time, since they vary between labels that are ethnic, national/regional, or both, on a case-by-case basis.</small> The scope will need cleanup; it is presently explicitly mixing people from Croatia and people who are not from there but identify as of Croatian heritage (what about 1/4 Croatian? 1/16? On the basis of what sources?). The latter is just not an encyclopedic criterion at all and is inevitably going to lead to OR and PoV. At this article it already has, and it's been tagged as problematic in this regard {{em|since 2009}}. Time to just fix it. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 04:11, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per above and my reasoning at the move request at ]. ''']<sup><small>]</small></sup>''' 04:19, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. If I understand correctly, e.g. ] would be in scope of "List of people from Croatia"? I'd still slightly prefer the earlier name, "List of Croats" (the article was apparently stealthily renamed a while ago for whatever reason), although my gripe with it was that it never clearly defined the scope of the list (i.e. who is a "Croat"), and was therefore messy and pointless. ] (]) 13:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
*:Tesla would still qualify, since he was born there. Also qualifies for American lists as a permanent resident and naturalized citizen. Would also qualify for a list of ethnic Serbs, if we wanted such a thing. "List of Croats" has all the problems of "List of Croatians". It's going to be confused a mixture of people who live in Croatia and people with some degree of Croatian ancestry but who have never set foot there. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 13:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. As I said, while I still feel "List of Croats" would be ideal, in the real world it devolved into an unfixable mess. (It ''might'' have worked as a list of people who ''self-identified'' as Croats, because it would be easier to get rid of all those nonsense entries, but "self-identified" would inevitably lead into another set of problems, chiefly with sourcing.) The new scope may not necessarily provide an easy way out, but I suppose it's still better than the alternatives. IMO, confusion with regard to the new scope is much less likely, but still possible (what precisely does it mean to be "from Croatia"?). However, these things can be stipulated later. ] (]) 13:57, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
----
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a ]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== unnecessary and redundant marks. ==

- Some people in the list are marked as "Jewish". I don't see how mentioning peoples religion would improve the list. I suggest removing the mark.
- Most people in the category "Architecture" are marked as "architect". This seems preety redundant to me.

] (]) 07:39, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

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Criteria

Currently, "List of Croats" is defined in the lead as:

"list of prominent individuals who were Croatian citizens or of Croatian ancestry."

While "prominent" may be presumed to imply the WP:LISTPEOPLE criterion, this definition is not entirely unambiguous, and may be also problematic in some respects. Here are some questions that need to be answered:

  1. Do we want to include "Croatian citizens" or just ethnic Croats? (E.g. Nikola Tesla meets the former criterion, but not the latter.) There are arguments in favor of both options.
  2. Do we construe "Croatian citizens" broadly as not only people who are or were citizens of the Republic of Croatia (1991-present), but also all people who lived and were associated with the same territory? Again, Tesla was strictly speaking never a Croatian citizen, but could be reasonably considered one "retroactively".
  3. "Croatian ancestry" presumably means "] ancestry", but it is fairly clear that "person of Croatian ancestry"<>"Croat". Are all n-th generation Croats still Croats? Where do we draw the line? GregorB (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Split. List of Croats (ethnic Croats) ≠ List of Croatians (nationality).--Zoupan 14:44, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Male or Female

Hi Folks, I have a suggestion that affects the entire list. Given that that the non-Croat (or non-slavic at least) world may not be familiar with Croat names, what do you think of adding a (M) or (F) after each name? I'm half Croatian and grew up with a fair amount of influence from the Northern California Croat community, but even names like Ignjat and Vanja stumped me.--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Inferiority complex

While reading the history of changes of this article I've 'learned' that Leonardo, Michelangello, Napoleon, Brigitte Bardot, Charlie Chaplin ... were Croats. I know there are many editors suffering from the inferiority complex which can be an explanation why all these 'were' Croats. I tried to clean the list removing the names which cannot be put on this list(Schwarz - an Austrian Jew, Boscovic - an Italian, Andric - a Serb). Alas, I see the same name back in the list .

A sense of personal inferiority arising from conflict between the desire to be noticed and the fear of being humiliated. In psychology, a complex, or cluster of repressed fears, described by Alfred Adler based on physical inferiority. The term is popularly used to describe general feelings of inferiority and the overcompensation that often ensues. Adler described the complex as arising from the perceived inferiority of an organ or part of the body and leading to feelings of general inferiority. He believed that everyone suffered from inferiority feelings and that the desire or determination to relieve them determined people's behavior. Failure to deal with them could lead to neurotic symptoms.

--72.66.12.17 (talk) 19:59, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Ivo Andric

His mother was a Serbian, he refused to be listed as a Croatian in Yugoslav Encyclopedia. Please, respect his identity.--72.66.12.17 (talk) 23:16, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

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Malkovich Croat?

Read the answer here Do danas ne znam jesam li Hrvat, Crnogorac ili Bosanac (Up to today, I do not know whether I am Croat, Montenegrin, or Bosnian)

Kada je prvi put u nekim novinama napisano da sam hrvatskog podrijetla, majka mi je rekla da potječemo iz Crne Gore, za što do tada također nisam čuo--109.92.171.142 (talk) 06:33, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 21 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:05, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

List of Croatians → List of people from Croatia – Per WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:COATRACK, we cannot commingle "people from Croatia" and "people with some Croatian ancestry"; the latter isn't an encyclopedic classification anyway. Talk pages of articles with ambiguous titles like this show a lot of dispute about inclusion, and it's caused by an impermissibly confused scope and a misleading title. This should move for WP:CONSISTENCY with almost all of the rest of our "people from X" articles and categories. The remaining "List of Labels" and "List of Label people" pages are being taken one RM at a time, since they vary between labels that are ethnic, national/regional, or both, on a case-by-case basis. The scope will need cleanup; it is presently explicitly mixing people from Croatia and people who are not from there but identify as of Croatian heritage (what about 1/4 Croatian? 1/16? On the basis of what sources?). The latter is just not an encyclopedic criterion at all and is inevitably going to lead to OR and PoV. At this article it already has, and it's been tagged as problematic in this regard since 2009. Time to just fix it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:11, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

  • Support per above and my reasoning at the move request at Talk:List of people from Sardinia. Vaselineeeeeeee 04:19, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment. If I understand correctly, e.g. Nikola Tesla would be in scope of "List of people from Croatia"? I'd still slightly prefer the earlier name, "List of Croats" (the article was apparently stealthily renamed a while ago for whatever reason), although my gripe with it was that it never clearly defined the scope of the list (i.e. who is a "Croat"), and was therefore messy and pointless. GregorB (talk) 13:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
    Tesla would still qualify, since he was born there. Also qualifies for American lists as a permanent resident and naturalized citizen. Would also qualify for a list of ethnic Serbs, if we wanted such a thing. "List of Croats" has all the problems of "List of Croatians". It's going to be confused a mixture of people who live in Croatia and people with some degree of Croatian ancestry but who have never set foot there.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. As I said, while I still feel "List of Croats" would be ideal, in the real world it devolved into an unfixable mess. (It might have worked as a list of people who self-identified as Croats, because it would be easier to get rid of all those nonsense entries, but "self-identified" would inevitably lead into another set of problems, chiefly with sourcing.) The new scope may not necessarily provide an easy way out, but I suppose it's still better than the alternatives. IMO, confusion with regard to the new scope is much less likely, but still possible (what precisely does it mean to be "from Croatia"?). However, these things can be stipulated later. GregorB (talk) 13:57, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

unnecessary and redundant marks.

- Some people in the list are marked as "Jewish". I don't see how mentioning peoples religion would improve the list. I suggest removing the mark. - Most people in the category "Architecture" are marked as "architect". This seems preety redundant to me.

62.146.75.212 (talk) 07:39, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Categories: