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{{WikiProject India|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Nepal|importance=Mid}} |
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{{FAOL|Norwegian|no:Sanskrit|lang2=Vietnamese|link2=vi:Tiếng Phạn}} |
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# ] |
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{{Annual readership |width=570 |days=182}} |
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{{backwardscopy|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=Ti4qAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Though+they+are+quite+similar,+they+differ+in+a+number+of+essential+points+of%22&dq=%22Though+they+are+quite+similar,+they+differ+in+a+number+of+essential+points+of%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_tOQUeK5FIq08QTKvIGwCA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ|title=Encyclopedia of Sanskrit Literature|author=Mamta Pandey|date=2008|comments=Content appears in the article prior to the year of publication of the book. --] <sup>]</sup> 12:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)}} |
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* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Eighth Schedule to the Constitution) has been ] before. <!-- {"title":"Eighth Schedule to the Constitution","appear":{"revid":405214116,"parentid":403888648,"timestamp":"2010-12-31T20:22:46Z","replaced_anchors":{"The language of Parliamentary proceedings and laws":"Parliamentary proceedings and laws","The language of Union-State and interstate communication":"Union-State and interstate communication"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":888697138,"parentid":888688827,"timestamp":"2019-03-20T20:06:23Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} --> |
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* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Eighth Schedule to the Constitution) has been ] before. <!-- {"title":"Eighth Schedule to the Constitution","appear":{"revid":405214116,"parentid":403888648,"timestamp":"2010-12-31T20:22:46Z","replaced_anchors":{"The language of Parliamentary proceedings and laws":"Parliamentary proceedings and laws","The language of Union-State and interstate communication":"Union-State and interstate communication"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":888697138,"parentid":888688827,"timestamp":"2019-03-20T20:06:23Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} --> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2024 == |
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== This article needs citations == |
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The article contains a lot of statements that are not attributed to any source. I previously made |
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edits to note this, but Dbachmann reversed them, saying that my edits were "silly" and that |
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the claims are "undisputed." Now, I am not aware that someone's opinion that some claims |
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are "undisputed" is now a valid criterion for said claims to be accepted. I also note that there |
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are very few references, and none at all for important claims (e.g., that Sanskrit dates to |
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1700 BCE, or that it is a national language of Nepal). I am not personally prepared to grant |
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these claims as undisputed, and even if they are known from folklore, is it accepted practice |
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not to cite when there is folklore? Yes, I accept that it is not necessary or good to moronically |
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insert a citation every sentence, but having so few citations, and none at all for almost all |
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claims which are simply made ex cathedra, does not make sense, unless Misplaced Pages just |
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morphed when I was sleeping. |
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I don't want to get into an edit war with Dbachmann over this issue, but I do hope that the |
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community will look at this matter carefully. |
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Thanks, shrao, 2007-06-08 |
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== Consistency (or an explanation) of the Romanization scheme here == |
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In some places there are accents (Á) over some of the Sanskrit words. What do these mean?! These accent marks are not shown on the IAST article at Misplaced Pages. Are you even using IAST here? If you are, then please explain to me what these accent marks mean and why they are not shown on the IAST article. If they are not IAST, then please replace them with full IAST. |
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] (]) 20:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:At a quick glance I only notice the accents in the ] section. They are used in older Sanskrit, that is, ]. In transliteration practice various Vedic accents are used in both ] and ], but I do not have the knowledge to add the needed information to the IAST article. --] (]) 22:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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we have dedicated ] article. --] <small>]</small> 11:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC) |
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== Southeast Asian languages originating from Sanskrit == |
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Which languages in Southeast Asia originated from Sanskrit? ] (]) 23:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:Southeast Asia? None that I'm aware. See ]. ] (]) 03:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:: None. There are some words which have been borrowed because of Hinduism in South-East Asia, otherwise most of the languages in SE Asia like Thai and others are tonal and have minimal or NO influence of Sanskrit. ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:37, 16 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::: So wrong man. ] is '''heavily''' influenced by ], but it is not an Indo-Aryan language, rather it is from the ]. The reason so is because Thai is Tai-Kadai in structure and substratum, Sanskrit only influenced Thai in terms of loanwords. The same applies to almost all languages in ] to as far as the ]. ] (]) 02:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:::: It appears so; trivial inspection of randomly selected entries in ] yields many basic terms, of not strictly liturgical origin, at least several of which are in 207 Swadesh list. --] (]) 03:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::Yes, if you believe South-East Asian languages originated from Sanskrit, then by the same token modern Indo-Aryan langauges like Hindi, Punjabi, Bengali, Gujarati etc. all "originated" from Persian and Arabic, which is clearly not the case. Also that would make English a Romance or Greek language, just because most of its technical vocabulary comes from Latin and Ancient Greek. <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 06:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC) |
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== Peacock terms == |
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There are several glorifying phrases added without ANY factual substantiation or just about anything. |
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* What is this nonsense about Sanskrit being spoken in Pakistan, Korea and China? There is a difference between 'spoken in' and Buddhism's 'liturgical language' being Sanskrit, influencing China. Sanskrit has NOT influenced or changed Chinese (which is Tonal in the first place), Korean (which is a language isolate) or in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan (Urdu is the ONLY official language and even Punjabi, Sindhi and others are only recognized languages). |
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* 'as the learned language' |
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Many more. The Misplaced Pages page has to only mention that Sanskrit is being revived. Please do not make use of this page to revive Sanskrit or any other agenda. ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:Once again, 'spoken in' in the infobox modified since it is not 'spoken' as a liturgical language in any Buddhist areas but texts are only written. ] (] '''·''' ]) 01:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
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While I agree that such statements are inaccurate and should therefore be edited out unless backed by reliable sources it seems like an overreaction to give the entire article a heading of "peacock terms". By all means highlight the relevant/offending sections and call them "peacock" if you wish but I can't see how everything else amounts to a "revival" or glorification agenda. It seems a bit unfair as I have found the article generally very informative, comprehensive in scope and mostly very neutral. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:41, 22 September 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:: An article does not have to made up of only Peacock terms for that to be subject to this inspection. Also, informative articles can also have peacock terms used in them. So I am putting the tag back on, and I will clean up the Peacock terms if anyone is willing to help. Thanks ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::: The article as pointed out before, in this same section, had nonsense about Sanskrit being spoke in Pakistan and all that. Neither did it have citations nor was it to provide information, just promoting a subject matter baselessly. The article has been improved slightly, however still seems to only promote the subject matter. Even normal information is being spiced up to make it look like a propaganda article. ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC) |
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Sudarsansn, some time back there was an disconcerted, but nevertheless stormy tirade from some editors who wanted to insert the phrase that Sanskrit '''is''' a "South-Asian language". When pointed out that there is government-approved acrimony against it in Pakistan and Bangladesh, and a near concentration only in India and Nepal, they whimpered away. ] (]) 06:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:: That is exactly what I mean by the use of peacock terms and promotion agenda, there are several such ones here. Removal of the tag is not substantiated in talk page, the reason for posting is clearly mentioned here. This might have to be taken notice of by the administrators. ] (] '''·''' ]) 04:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC) |
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I see more and more edits being made to baselessly promote the subject matter, one look at the edit history of the article will make it evidently clear |
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* "the figurative presiding position accorded to all forms of Sanskrit" (??) |
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* "being the oldest and most archaic stage preserved, its oldest core dating back" (Why this extreme redundancy?) |
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* "and it has significantly influenced most modern" |
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I see only the kind of edits pointed out by User IAF above |
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- ] (] '''·''' ]) 04:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC) |
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Sudharsansn, may I ask you to tag the offending passages with an inline {{tl|dubious}} (or else just remove them) instead of tagging the entire article with a less than helpful {{tl|peacock}}? answering your points: |
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*"the figurative presiding position accorded to all forms of Sanskrit"-- I agrse this is bs. |
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*"being the oldest and most archaic stage preserved, its oldest core dating back" -- this is due to the difference of Vedic Sanskrit in general and ''Rig''vedic Sanskrit in particular. There is a millennium between the "oldest core" of Rigvedic Sanskrit and late Vedic Sanskrit, and another millennium between late Vedic Sanskrit and Kalidasa. |
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*"and it has significantly influenced most modern Indian languages" -- well, it has, just like Latin and Greek influenced most modern European languages. |
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--] <small>]</small> 08:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:: The point is very simply this, there are too many {{dubious}} ones, like those were the ones I saw in like one minute. There are several others, like almost every paragraph has about five or six of them. The tag is being removed because it is 'less' helpful but the point that is lost is that that is the most descriptive one to be used. |
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:: Based on your point Dbachmann, have you removed all the peacock terms and the tag in one go? Or at least, if you are interested, we, and other interested users, can clean it, giving it a time span of 2-3 days. Let me know, thanks ] (] '''·''' ]) 20:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC) |
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== Articulation == |
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It seems that the Sanskrit article, the ] section could benefit from a subsection on ] (s. , for example). |
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Or maybe a new, specific article on Sanskrit articulation. |
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--] (]) 16:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC) |
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== Spoken languages == |
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Sanskrit is NOT spoken in China, Nepal, Pakistan and other areas. It is not even spoken in India except for one hypothetical district with 3000 speakers. This was the issue raised in the Peacock terms section. Also, litturgical languages are NOT spoken languages, it is only the language in which the religious text is written. |
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People come here to glorify and revive Sanskrit, Misplaced Pages is not to be used for agenda and revival but citing information. Period. ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC) |
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: So you don't think that in any of those areas where Sanskrit is used as a sacred language that Sanskrit is spoken at all? --] (]) 16:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC) |
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::It is used only for religious function. So Hindu priests and gurus often chant verses in Sanskrit and read the sacred texts in Sanskrit, but I doubt they speak it generally. It would need a source if that were the case. <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 07:00, 29 October 2008 (UTC) |
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::I have attended a course on spoken samkritam and have friends who went and studied the living sanskrit in the villages where it is spoken as a common language. It seems to be an old fashion to call Sanskrit 'dead' just to make it similar to Latin I guess. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">]</span> 10:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC) |
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::: Probably. I also watched a youtube video where there's this illiterate 6-year old girl not knowing anything about ''eka-vacana'' and ''bahu-vacana'' and obviously knowing the difference between singular and plural of Sanskrit nouns she uttered ^_^. I am really interested how far the tradition of vernacular spoken Sanskrit goes in the past: is it uninterrupted from Pāṇinian times, or just a result of subsequent cultivation of well-minded peasants by a few Brahmins that were not so obsessively possessive on "deva-bhāṣā" ? If this former is the case, then the things are ''radically'' different than in the case of Ancient Greek or Latin, who ceased to be utilized for any kind of conversation > millenium ago (even though people wrote books in them, and cherished them, but strictly as literary languages). --] (]) 15:03, 29 October 2008 (UTC) |
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::Sanskrit debates were a common place just 300 years back, and poetry was written and recited not long ago. There is a huge wave of interest in spoke Sanskrit in recent years. At this pace it could become more of a spoke language then Gaelic Language at present. Yes people speak Gaelic but it is in a similar state to what you have described abpve:-) still its a living language. Completely different thing is the classical Sanskrit. Since the end of 17th c classical Sanskrit is not used for public debate and thus became less of a spoken language. Before that the debate was a major cultural element almost a 'theatre' level performance and was widespread. Now only a few villages (size of Gaelchta areas) has living language. Bleeding Mogul rule. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">]</span> 15:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:::It was not just the Muslims that made spoken Sanskrit in decline. Even 1500 years, Pali and Prakrits were very common. Most Buddhist and Jain texts are in these languages, not Sanskrit. By then, only the Brahmins would have known Sanskrit. <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 22:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:::But the original purpose of this discussion was regarding countries other than India. There may be a few villages left which still speak Sanskrit in India but it is completely liturgical among other countries which used like South East Asia. So the infobox should only say "Spoken in India" unless somebody can pull out a source from somewhere. <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 22:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC) |
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::DaGizza, you are right. It is not 'spoken' anywhere else. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">]</span> 20:16, 30 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Sanskrit stopped being a mother-tongue before the Buddha's time. Classical Sanskrit never was. ] (]) 22:34, 30 October 2008 (UTC) |
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let's just say it is spoken in the ]. The 1947 borders are irrelevant to this. Liturgical languages aren't spoken as a ''first'' language, but they are, of course, spoken. Already, as hinted at by the term, in ]. --] <small>]</small> 13:06, 2 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::We cannot just 'say' it is spoken in the subcontinent. Borders are very much relevant, how can they be redrawn to the point before 1947 just to make it sound bigger. It is marginally spoken ONLY in India, not in the Subcontinent (which includes Pakistan, Bangladesh, Maldives, Bhutan, etc). Liturgical languages may be spoken, but do not have to be spoken. Moreover, Sanskrit is used only mantras, shlokas kind of things and except for a dubious citation about some random village in Karnataka, is not spoken anywhere. Even if so, we can believe in the number cited and it has 49,000 odd speakers. |
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::Please do Sanskrit revival elsewhere and come and write about it here, do not revive it here. Thanks ] (] '''·''' ]) 21:11, 7 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== edit with care == |
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this article is very vulnerable: It has a long history of development, and it has been contributed to by many people who actually know about the topic. Sadly, it seems to attract a lot of "improvements" on the part of editors with insufficient knowledge of the topic who inexplicably are always convinced they know better. Any unilateral change of long-standing, discussed, stable content needs to be viewed with suspicion. In the light of all this, permanent semiprotection would be best. The chance of article improvement by drive-by editors adding "corrections" is negligible. --] <small>]</small> 13:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Thanks for the advice, but also see . As far as I can see, that's an unsubstantiated POV. Sanskrit (or Classical Sanskrit) was not invented or created or defined by Panini. He wrote a grammar for it, the only extant grammar among a dozen others named by him prior to his time, see ]. Kindly stop Mitsube from indulging in unconstructive edit-warring and POV pushing. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 18:41, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:if this is your only concern, we can discuss the phrasing. The fact is that these "Eleven Schools" are only known ''via'' Panini. Panini's work is the oldest surviving grammar of Sanskrit. It is undisputedly true that he had predecessors, only their work has been lost. I would prefer the phrasing "as laid out by" over "as defined by" myself, but this is a detail and open to bona fide discussion. |
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:so, would you be satisfied if we replace "as defined by Panini" by the more agnostic "as laid out by Panini"? ] <small>]</small> 18:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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What about your ad-nauseum reverts without giving any specific reasons? <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 18:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Yes the earlier statement about Panini (before Mitsubi's revert) was good enough. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 18:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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>>Any unilateral change of long-standing, discussed, stable content needs to be viewed with suspicion.<<<br> |
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No, that is just your mentality. You need to see what those changes are and see what the damage (if any) is. |
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<br>>>The chance of article improvement by drive-by editors adding "corrections" is negligible.<<<br> |
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So I became a drive-by editor and the chances of me making any improvements is negligible, so you can flex your muscles and revert all my edits just because of your baseless suspicions? <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 18:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:You are acting like a drive-by editor, and you need to respect sourced material. ] (]) 19:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::Sanskrit became a secular language of philosophy and culture after Panini. ] (]) 19:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::: Yeah you can try pushing that POV as hard as possible, Panini was just "one" popular sanskrit grammarian, thats all. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 19:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
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I see no replies from ] for his article-wide reverts based only on his suspicions rather than a careful analysis on whether each of my contributions were damaging the article or helping its improvement. I dont know if that is a case of bullying members like me, together with his above interesting adjectives to describe me. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 19:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
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You raised a valid point. I gave you a suggestion for a compromise phrasing. Instead of reacting, you immediately take the discussion elsewhere. If you want to continue this discussion, you'll need to focus on article ''content'', point by point. So please stop testing people's nerve and start contributing in good faith. No, Panini was not ''just "one" popular sanskrit grammarian'', you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Already your grammatical mistake in the diff I link to above shows that you have no detailed knowledge of the topic. So why don't you just limit yourself to constructive suggestions and stop the antagonism. ] <small>]</small> 19:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
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I have enough knowledge on Panini to talk about his contribution. To modern scholarship, Panini might appear to be the most important sanskrit grammarian, only because we dont know who the others were before him. It was a long tradition of grammar, and Panini himself acknowledges that. Most of what we credit to Panini were not his inventions. Despite what you might think, Panini's grammar was descriptive (not prescriptive), and there are enough mainstream linguists who attest this view. Also what you described as a grammatical error on my part is formed by your own ignorance and prejudice. If you know better you can try finding a saMskRt'''A''' vAk anywhere, it should be saMskRt'''a''' vAk, because this is convention. Under what authority do you find yourself competent to make mass reverts without analysing whether my work on the article is constructive or desructive? I have no need or intention to antagonize you, but you are trying to play the bully with me, using words like "drive-by" editor etc and making total-reverts of my work without any basis. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 14:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC) |
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: Do you note the difference between the ''saṃskṛta'' an adjective and a noun? ''vāc'' (nom. sg. ''vāk'') is feminine, thus the -ā in qualifying adjective. |
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: Pāṇini (or whoever signed the works under that name, regardless of whether they were his own inventions, result of a continual refinement during the history by a number of predecessors - all of which is speculative as very little known for sure even for Pāṇini himself, let alone for his predecessors), from today's perspective, did the capital work regarding the codification of what we today refer to as "classical Sanskrit". It is likely that he described his mother tongue (hence it was descriptive, but conditionally speaking - only in synchronic context), or the archaic Brahmin speech, but his work was prescriptive and dominating in terms of defining "proper Sanskrit" for all writers afters him. The term ''prescriptive'' refers to role of a work as defining some kind of ] - an abstract role model one should strive to attain in his writing. The term ''descriptive'' refers to a way that e.g. grammar or dictionary is written - describing spoken language, not trying to e.g. invent words that are not spoken, but are necessary in order to describe some regular morphological process. As far as the latter point is concerned, the answer is no - Pāṇini and other grammarians invented e.g. verbal roots in order to explain etymologies for some nouns (cf. in ] dictionary notes for the roots √al, √ṇa, √dhiṣ, √naj, √nīl, √paṇḍ, √parṇ, √pal, √pall, √puṇ, √pur, √bid, √maṭh, √mark, √maṣ, √vaṭ, √śaś, √sakh, √sī, √stu, √stūp, √hal), or invented meanings or nouns themselves to account for e.g. lost or secondary meanings preserved in compounds or whatever appears to be some kind of derivation. So the terms ''descriptive'' and ''prescriptive'' are not necessarily in a collision. What ''must'' be emphasized is the absolute authority of Pāṇini's work in later times; saying that he was just "one popular Sasnskrit grammarian" would be a gross understatement of his influence. --] (]) 17:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::I totally agree with Ivan. To say that Panini was just another grammarian is silly. Contributors whining about their edits getting reverted should STOP editing Misplaced Pages as it is a gradual accumulation and compilation of ideas that have come-by, and NOT 'driven-by', owing to changes made to the articles. Such contributors who crib about the authority of others should first analyze that the authority is in the existing Misplaced Pages standards and not in a self-proclaimed sense of 'I-know-Panini-he-was-my-neighbor' POV authority. One should stop making absolutely immature statements like 'I know Panini' (as if he were one's neighbor), 'ignorance and prejudice', etc when it is patently obvious that user Srkris is the one driving-by to drop POV parcels. Some more rewording and rephrasing needs to be done and it will be done. ] (] '''·''' ]) 03:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Comments made by user Srkris who is whining about personal attacks: "which ignoramus altered this?", "formed by your own ignorance and prejudice", "Under what authority do you find yourself competent to make mass reverts ". ] warned about personal attacks: ] - BE CIVIL!! - ] (] '''·''' ]) 03:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Do we need a separate main articles? == |
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Do we need separate main articles for each of this article's sections to reduce the article's size and make it better organized and meaningful? <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 19:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
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the article is already ]. I am not sure what you are trying to achieve here. ] <small>]</small> 19:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::We have separate article already for ], ], ], ], etc. If others sections like history grow large enough such that they they no longer adhere to ], separate article will be created for them in due course. <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 23:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::This is clearly ]. A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. Both content forks and POV forks are undesirable on Misplaced Pages, as they avoid consensus building and therefore violate one of our most important policies. ] (] '''·''' ]) 03:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC) |
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what, pray, is a pov fork? By "this", you mean this article? So what is it a cfork of? You are not making sense. ] <small>]</small> 17:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC) |
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If you don't understand what it means, read what's in the link for anything to make sense. The idea of creating articles out of sub-sections of a bigger article to push POV is POV fork. ] (] '''·''' ]) 00:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Indian Religions and the Indian Subcontinent == |
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'''Fact 1''':] does NOT mean India. It includes Pakistan, Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Burma, Sri Lanka and Maldives. Sanskrit is NOT spoken in ANY of these countries. |
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'''Fact 2''': It is NOT the liturgical language of ], which again is not Hinduism alone. It includes ], ], etc. It is one of the liturgical languages of Hinduism and Buddhism, since several core texts of even these religions are in different languages. |
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Do not enlarge the labels just to make it sound bigger. We cannot say that Sanskrit is spoken in the Eastern Hemisphere just to make it sound bigger and that India is in the Eastern Hemisphere. ] (] '''·''' ]) 03:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:Sanskrit is almost never spoken by Buddhists. Texts written in Sanskrit are almost exclusively used in translation. ] (]) 06:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::Exactly. Firstly, it is not 'spoken' anywhere, in the strictest sense of conversations or casual talk, except for that dubious claim about some speakers. But even the benefit of doubt can be given that such a large country may have 50,000 speakers. To extend it to a Subcontinent or say that Hindu or Buddhist Priests talk to their 'devotees' in Sanskrit is pure nonsense. As mentioned, do not inflate numbers and use of adjectives to do revival here, the POV Editors here do it elsewhere and then come and report it here. ] (] '''·''' ]) 10:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC) |
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The data on the native speakers is based on the census. while it is correct that it is spoken only in some limited areas of india, not pakistan etc:) <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">]</span> 10:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:Yep, indeed. ] (] '''·''' ]) 20:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::Just a minor correction, Sanskrit is partially a liturgical language in Sikhism. There are some Sanskrit verses in the ]. But I still agree with your general argument. <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 21:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::The presence of some Sanskrit verses only indicates its relationship with other Dharmic religions and SGGS is written in Archaic Punjabi. Thanks for the mention though. ] (] '''·''' ]) 00:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Of course ] is spoken in ]. We have studied the language in our primary school and we have got several governmental institutes those teach ]. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 11:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Do you guys know the difference between official language and scheduled language? == |
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Sanskrit is one of the 22 scheduled languages of ] not official you fool!!!! |
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== Sanskrit is spoken in Nepal as well!!!! == |
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Whats wrong with these Indians here... what do they want to prove?! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 11:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::How is it that ] is still around with all the blanking, nonsense, a ton of warnings and blocks?? ] (] '''·''' ]) 03:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::I think he is blocked for good now if you check the block log. He may create sockpuppets though just to annoy us further. <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 04:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Thanks Gizza, yes, I am waiting to see a sockpuppet pop out of nowhere now. ] (] '''·''' ]) 06:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Yeah suckers...if somebody is questioning the authenticity of the bullshit you write here then he is the culprit... nice tradition you guys have here.. Hats off <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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==Persistent Vandalism of Infobox contents== |
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The "spoken in" field in the infobox of this article should specify (1) ] or ], and (2) ] because ] is a ] ] evolved from ] and was used across the Indian Subcontinent (and elsewhere, such as ], ], and ]) for significant periods of time. These places had ]s and are included within the term ]. It doesnt matter if it is not spoken or recognized as an ] '''anywhere''' today. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 16:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:how about just linking ]? The question is rather futile, since it is a literary language not natively spoken ''anywhere''. ] <small>]</small> 17:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::All ] have to be natively spoken somewhere at some point of time. Sanskrit was spoken natively wherever it evolved into prakrits later. It also remained in use side by side with the prakrits (but was later retained as a native language only by the brahmins till the early part of the last millenium). The question here is not whether it was spoken natively or non-natively. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 18:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::I would be interested to see a source on Sanskrit being a mother tongue (of any group) after 500 BCE. ] (]) 19:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::::The infobox should specify where it is spoken today, not where it was spoken a thousand years ago. Since by that token, we should specify the language spoken in Canada as Cree, Metis and Inuit instead of English or French. This is blatant POV nonsense. Do not enlarge the labels just to make it sound bigger. We cannot say that Sanskrit is spoken in the Eastern Hemisphere just to make it sound bigger and that India is in the Eastern Hemisphere. ] (] '''·''' ]) 00:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::POV pushers may disagree, but the logic is that that for a dead language, its historical geographies make more sense than current geographies. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 09:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::It is patently obvious as to who is the POV pusher here. Enlarging labels is POV, citing where it is spoken today is what is required in the Infobox. Historical geographies seem to make sense only for the POV garbage that is being pushed here. Maybe we should write Eastern Hemisphere to push more. ] (] '''·''' ]) 19:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::Looks like Srkris is hellbent on enlarging the labels. He once again replaced it as Indian Subcontinent in spite of the rebuttal here and is now enlarging the Indian Religions label. Sikhism and Jainism have Sanskrit words by virtue of being Sanskrit based languages, they are NOT written in Sanskrit and their liturgical languages are NOT Sanskrit. ] (] '''·''' ]) 21:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Jainism relied on Sanskrit far less than Buddhism, see the link on my userpage. ] (]) 21:29, 18 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I agree with Srkris in that historical geographies are more important for quasi-dead languages like Sanskrit. But that means it wasn't spoken in these countries, but just a ]. The best solution would be to add a "Spoken in" and "Liturgical language" section in the infobox. <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 23:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::How did you come to the conclusion that Sanskrit i.e Old-Indo-Aryan was never spoken? <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 16:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Srkis is partially correct - there was a period when Sanskrit (in pre-Pāṇinean non-codified sense) was spoken vernacular, for most practical purposes Vedic Sanskrit being equal to the Late Proto-Indo-Aryan. Dialectal stratification between the western and central dialects is even discernible, even within the Ṛgveda itself! Now, to what extent exactly was the geographical distribution of spoken Vedic Sanskrit (in supra-dialectal sense) different to that of "Vedic Prākrits" (Indo-Aryan dialects ancestral to other prākrits)—I have no idea. However, dumbing down Sanskrit usage and expansion as some mere "liturgical language" in post-Vedic times would be a severe understatement and PoV, just as much as it would be to claim that Sanskrit is spoken anywhere where it's not. --] (]) 17:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Sanskrit was, and is, of course, spoken, but it was ''by definition'' never a ]. This article focusses on Classical Sanskrit. The question of dialectal traces in Vedic Sanskrit should be discussed at ]. The seminal study of this is Witzel (1989), which has been referenced there for ages, but I warn you that it is all quite speculative. It is a misleading anachronism to speak of "Sanskrit in pre-Pāṇinean non-codified sense": the proper term for this would be ]. This would include the early Indo-Aryan dialects ancestral all prākrits as well as to Sanskrit proper. This is ''not'' the topic of this article. The Old Indic vernaculars of which Sanskrit was the ] register no doubt existed, but they are unattested. The surprising thing isn't that vernaculars of 1000 BC were lost -- the exceptional thing is that ''anything'' has survived. The fallacy is, of course in Srkris' "Sanskrit i.e. Old-Indo-Aryan". These aren't synonyms, even though Sanskrit is the only ''attested'' Old Indic dialect. Discussing the question of "Sanskrit as a mother tongue" is like discussing "] as a mother tongue". Classical Latin wasn't a mother tongue, ] was. In contrast to Old Indic vernaculars, we have some records of Vulgar Latin, but that's the only difference. |
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No, Ivan, "Sanskrit usage and expansion(huh?) as some mere 'liturgical language' in post-Vedic times" is not "a severe understatement and PoV", it happens to be the definition of "Sanskrit". You keep ignoring that "Sanskrit" is short for ''samskrta vak'', which translates to "refined speech" as opposed to mere ''vak'' "speech". Asking "is Sanskrit spoken natively" is like asking "is refined, literary English spoken natively". The answer is no, you need to get a full education before you will be able to speak it. --] <small>]</small> 18:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:this is relevant to this discussion, or "Persistent Vandalism of Infobox content" how? This justifies the reversion to ] in the infobox ''how''? --] <small>]</small> 19:09, 19 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::I mistook this to be also a discussion about the first line of the article. ] (] '''·''' ]) 19:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC) |
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: Ok, I though we were discussing also ''Sanskrit'' in a sense ''Vedic Sanskrit'', which is here apparently treated as "Old Indic". They are not exactly two "different languages" but whatever. The infobox should then more explicitely state the difference between the classical language one had to learn and master to be proficient in (as non-mother-tongue), and the earlier spoken and closely related Old Indo-Aryan vernaculars including Vedic ones which also contribute to the corpus of Sanskrit literature, and are also covered by they term ''Sanskrit'' in a more wider sense. --] (]) 19:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Dbachmann, Classical Sanskrit is not merely Panini's dialect, but also includes the language of the whole corpus of non-vedic Sanskrit literature. Some of these (example the language of the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata) is not in Paninian Sanskrit. There are scores of other documents (like for example the Nirukta and Nighantu, which are composed in an intermediary stage between vedic and classical sanskrit. All these (after vedic but upto paninian sanskrit) are called classical sanskrit. Just as how you claim Sanskrit is not the same as Old-Indo-Aryan but just an OIA dialect, classical sanskrit is also not synonymous with Panini's dialect as represented by his grammar. ] in his ] ("great commentary" on Panini), clearly mentions that even in his time (c. 2nd BCE) there were many Brahmins who didnt need to study sanskrit to speak it perfectly as a native language, and it was clearly therefore natively spoken (albeit by a minority) even till the turn of the christian era. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 08:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Indian Religions ? == |
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] includes ], ] and ] and the core texts of these languages are NOT in Sanskrit. A ], is a language that is cultivated for religious reasons by people who speak another language in their daily life. ], ] and ] do NOT use Sanskrit for religious reasons as in the case of ], ] for Hinduism. Their texts having Sanskrit words does not mean it is in Sanskrit. Even ] used ] phrases in his plays, it does NOT mean that Shakespeare wrote in Latin. STOP enlarging labels to make them look bigger. First, it was POV nuisance with Indian Subcontinent and now it is enlarging the label for religions. Sheer POV nonsense. ] (] '''·''' ]) 19:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Isn't this patently obvious? Labels are being enlarged to make everything sound bigger? First, it was South Asia vs Indian Subcontinent, next it was Indian Subcontinent vs India, now it is Indian Religions. Why not just say Eastern Hemisphere and religions, instead of being even remotely close to what one would term being specific? ] (] '''·''' ]) 19:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC) |
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The only thing that is obvious is someone is now desperate. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 07:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:Of course, someone is desperate, that happens to be you. You started off with South Asia then toned it down to the Indian Subcontinent. This time, why don't you start off with the generic term ], I mean, you can, by your impossible reasoning, somehow demonstrate that at some point of time the only religion in the world was ] and so by historic geography, Sanskrit was the liturgical language of ALL religions!! Try that for a change. ] (] '''·''' ]) 09:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::] and ] are two terms for the same region, and I dont expect someone to understand that using one or the other doesnt mean one has toned down, whatever that means! I dont need to tone down fearing a POV pusher, and the Info-box link which mentions "India" still points to the Indian subcontinent. Now go wild as POV pushers are wont! <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 15:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::] and ] seem to include and exclude several entities. If your best bet at enlarging labels was to point the text ] to the ], and writing that in the edit summary as a copy-edit, then I have to mention that it is a very cheap trick. Infobox updated. Why is it so patently not obvious to someone that enlarging labels is actually the PoV part, not writing facts. Why don't you work for ']', seriously, they need hyper-enthusiastic Sanskrit chauvinists like you to write that ] was once a ]!! The infobox says where it is spoken and the answer is ], period. We cannot include the ] because there is a spoken Sanskrit class organized by RSS there!! ] (] '''·''' ]) 03:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Dbachmann is also then your Voice of India worker, . Have fun reverting. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 11:33, 28 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Font size in the "See also" section == |
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Why is smaller font size used in the "See also" section? Normally it is just the same as other section, and I don't understand why my previous edit concerning it was reverted. Can anyone tell me the reason if there is any? Thanks for your attention. ] (]) 03:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:Your edits may have been a casualty of the crossfire in the edit wars that were going on. I'll update this anyhow. Thanks. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 08:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== The name "Sanskrit" == |
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Hazra, Kanai Lal. Pāli Language and Literature; a systematic survey and historical study. D.K. Printworld Ltd., New Delhi, 1994, page 13 has that Sanskrit "properly got its name after the "refinement" effected by Panini." He holds that Vedic Sanskrit was called (in Pali) "chandaso," "of the hymns." Does anyone have a conflicting source on the origins of the term "Sanskrit"? ] (]) 02:53, 22 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:This is the generally accepted point of view.] (]) 03:11, 22 November 2008 (UTC) |
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"chandasi" is actually the locative, literally "in the hymns (])" - it isn't the "name" of any languge, it's Panini's terms for what he considered archaic, unproductive forms. |
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We've been groping about this for weeks now. It is very simple, and the article has been aware of it all the time. |
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The native term for "language" is simply "vaak". "Sanskrit" is the ''refined register'' of that language. The term for the historical language in general, including all hypothetical dialects, would be ]. |
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The term "]" can be compared to the term ], the term ] to "]". ''Homeric'' or ''Epic'' Greek aren't spoken dialects, they are the refined, educated register of speech, showing the influence of many different vernaculars, as employed by ] as the result of a long education. It is pointless to ask "how many people are native speakers of Epic Greek". |
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There aren't any traces of actual vernacular Old Indic dialects, but that's just a circumstance of attestation, a consequence of the late arrival of writing to India. If the Indians had begun using an alphabet in 700 BC like the Greeks, we would have many vernacular Old Indic inscriptions. We don't, but that doesn't mean Old Indic vernaculars didn't exist. |
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--] <small>]</small> 10:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:The term is likely pre-Panini; it seems unlikely that if it were merely a technical term invented by him it would have made its way into the Pali canon. The Aryans were aware of other languages, are you sure that "language" only refers to Old Indic? ] (]) 00:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Dbachmann is correct in that ]i/Chandasa/Chandaso was a dialect, literally "of the metrical hymns i.e the vedic hymns". In India, it is still called "veda vaak" or "vedic speech". Vaak is not language, but speech. Sanskrit/Vedic/Prakrits were all "spoken" dialects known by their own descriptive names. Vedic itself was a vernacular. '''Classical sanskrit was not just Panini's sanskrit''', it includes all post vedic sanskrit whether or not conforming to Panini's grammar. Comparison with Homeric or Attic Greek may not hold, such a comparison is merely a misconception. Vedic and Sanskrit were both Old-Indic vernaculars, simply because all languages before Panini's time were only spoken languages. The reason why Panini himself composed his grammar in ](aphorism) form is to keep brevity above all other considerations and aid memorization and oral transfer of its content, as writing had not yet been introduced in India in his time. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 16:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC) |
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==region== |
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]. This is pretty much a tautology, since the "]" includes any region that has been significantly influenced by Sanskritic tradition.--] <small>]</small> 09:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)]] |
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:Why is Japan, Korea & China not included because after all they were influenced by Buddhist religion ? For example ] even has a Sanskrit name. If Mauritious can be included why not Guyana, Surinam, Trinidad and Fiji are not included beacuse people there also chant Sanskrit verses in their rituals ? ] (]) 17:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC) |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Sanskrit|answered=yes}} |
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It is not SPOKEN in Greater India, because otherwise we could include any country with 20 Hindu temples to be speaking Sanskrit. It is SPOKEN only by 49,000 speakers in India. It is like this, Latin is NOT spoken by every country with a ] church or a huge Catholic presence, it relates only to ]. ] (] '''·''' ]) 23:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC) |
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'''Remove note j and its associated reference 121.''' Note j is irrelevant to its sentence's meaning, and ref 121 has no other usages on the page. |
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The note's sentence ("...suggests that by the start of the common era, hardly anybody other than learned monks had the capacity to understand the old Prakrit languages...") refers to the "start of the ]", which was a couple millennia ago, but ethnologue.com, the website of ref 121, only documents ''current'' language status, which means the reference is irrelevant. Pali's current status says nothing about its status 2000 years ago. |
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:Thank you for your "points of view". <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 23:57, 22 November 2008 (UTC) |
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(Side note: ref 121's link is broken, and the correct link for Pali (https://www.ethnologue.com/language/pli/) now lists it as "endangered" instead of "extinct", which means note j is not just irrelevant, but unsupported by its reference.) ] (]) 12:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::It is fairly straightforward, but hey "welcome back". ] (] '''·''' ]) 00:35, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:@] I removed the note. ] (]) 12:54, 21 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::It is not a "point of view" Kris. It is a definition of "Spoken" as opposed to "revered" or "liturgical". <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 08:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> <span style="font-family:Arial;background-color:#fff;border:2px dashed#69c73e">] - ]</span> 02:55, 22 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I understand that. The difference is between "was spoken" and "is spoken". Maybe the infobox should also specify the periods when it was spoken between ] and ] <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 10:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Changed to ], which should be acceptable to everyone concerned. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 11:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Introduction == |
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] isn't even an article, it's a disambiguation page for various historical periods. Look, this isn't a big deal. ] or ] (the region, not the Republic!) will do. "Greater India" doesn't have a precise definition, it's "whererver Sanskrit has had some influence". Of course, Sanskrit isn't "spoken" ''anywhere'' in the sense of a native language, but it is still fair to indicate the region of its main influence. --] <small>]</small> 13:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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The introduction to the article on Sanskrit is nearly illegible. An introduction should be a concise synthesis -- clear, easy to understand, and memorable -- that prepares the reader for what follows and sparks curiosity to learn more. |
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Instead, it presents a visually cluttered and dense paragraph, difficult to read and even harder to grasp and retain. |
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:This is seriously disruptive behavior on ]'s part. In spite of repeated consensus on the usage of ] by Dbachmann, Gizza, Mitsube and several other editors, he is repeatedly pushing the same enlarging labels nonsense. He has jumped from ] to ] to ] and to almost anything that makes it bigger. This is all sheer POV nonsense by ], every single change made in this article for the past few weeks has been POV and even other editors seem to acknowledge it. This persistent vandalism has to stop. Leave the damn thing alone, at least till the 49,376 speakers die out or switch to using Chinese!! ] (] '''·''' ]) 21:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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This issue is widespread across Misplaced Pages. If not addressed, the encyclopedia risks being gradually supplanted by alternatives that offer a better reading experience. ] (]) 00:31, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:If you have suggestions, you can request suggested changes here. ] (]) 18:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
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Let me repost the point regarding ]. It is not SPOKEN in Greater India, because otherwise we could include any country with 20 Hindu temples to be speaking Sanskrit. It is SPOKEN only by 49,000 speakers in India. It is like this, ] is NOT spoken by every country with a ] or a huge Catholic presence, it relates only to ]. ] (] '''·''' ]) 21:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::The two versions of the word Samskritam (nominal and adjective) are unnecessary and clutters the side bar. The word was initially used like an adjective for anything well made and later for the language nominally, thus only the nominal form must be used. The word संस्कृतं is pronounced as or as as per https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/8/3/5. Thus, both must be listed. ] (]) 07:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:this is a silly argument, but I'm not going to waste time over the trivial task on spelling it out. Turning your argument on its feet, ] has an area of 3,287,240 km². In how many of these km², do you think, are you going to find anyone engaged in chatting away in Sanskrit at any time? Why, you think this is a silly argument? Well, it's the same one you've just been trying to sell us. It's simple. ] is not a region (it's the article on the 1947 Republic). If we have no consensus, we'll just have to leave the slot blank for now. --] <small>]</small> 16:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::Can we remove the second (and third?) para of the intro? Their content is addressed in the same detail in the history section. ] (]) 05:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC) |
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To be concise, it is not spoken anywhere outside India, it used outside of India as a ceremonial language, but is spoke only in the country of India, if there is a census results for Nepal you will see it, it not 'spoken' even there. I would be even more specific, ]. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">]</span> 18:02, 24 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2024 == |
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:The debate is not whether India is a region or not, but the countries where it is spoken and as per an official government census, it is spoken by '''49,736 speakers as per the 1991 Linguistic census of India and that is a statistic'''. It is outright silly go back to any census figures from the 5th century AD and include the Eastern Hemisphere. The official government figures are good enough to put it up as an established and cited fact. ALL the population data for even other Indian languages come from that census. I am putting India back in there. There is consensus, it almost looks like it is being intentionally avoided. ] (] '''·''' ]) 19:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::nonsense. --] <small>]</small> 21:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Sanskrit|answered=yes}} |
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::Wikidas, Mitsube, Gizza and I seem to agree exactly on what constitutes a statistic, a 'point of view', an enlargement of the label and a fact. It is spoken by 49000 odd speakers in India, as a cited fact, period!! ] (] '''·''' ]) 19:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Tamil is the oldest language in the world not sanskrit ] (]) 22:54, 19 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::the "fact" is that 49,000 people thought it would be funny to tick "Sanskrit" in the 1991 census. It's not like anyone checked. You may or may not be interested in the ] that 390,000 Brits adhere to the ] religion. --] <small>]</small> 21:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:This article doesn't say Sanskrit is the "oldest language in the world". --] (<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>) 22:56, 19 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== This article's length == |
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good, we are getting somewhere. So we have the claim that "it is not spoken anywhere outside India". Do we have any '']'' to back up this claim? I would be satisfied with a credible reference to the effect that "Sanskrit is not spoken anywhere in Pakistan, Nepal or Bangladesh". --] <small>]</small> 21:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC) |
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] has brought attention to the length of the article in . I tend to agree with them; it probably is too long at 14,841 words, and inching toward ]. |
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*Among ], there aren't too many languages represented (see ]), but among the few there are: |
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We cannot go on a rampage against 49,000 people who 'ticked' Sanskrit in their census questionnaire. If that is what they ticked, that is what we get. If 390,000 Brits adhere to ] religion, then they ARE Jedi-ites, or whatever, and it has to be cited. Census figures do not need to convince anyone, it is a statistic. Even I cannot believe that there are just 33 Million people in the whole of the world's second largest country, ], where I live, but that's the way it works. |
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:*] has on 5,724 words. |
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:*] has 6,806 words, and |
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:*] has 6,476 words |
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*In the category ]: |
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Also, I don't think we can find a statistic or a credible reference that proves a claim contrary to the fact that it is meant to record. Statistics or credible references like the census can only tell us where something is spoken, not where it is ''NOT'' spoken. So, we have a statistic for where it is spoken. There cannot be ANY reference which states that Sanskrit is NOT spoken in Pakistan, Nepal or Bangladesh. Regarding the ] and a country with , namely ], it is more than obvious. The burden of proof would be on those who seek to establish that Sanskrit is spoken in ] not on those who state the patent reality. |
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*] has 14,401 words. (So, it too is creeping up to overlong status), but |
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*] has 8,415 words and the others have fewer. |
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I will now look at the history of this article and report back. Thank you ] ]] 14:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:And here's the history. (I shall be soft pinging various editors by citing their diffs, but no comment on their edit is implied: |
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Regarding this whole business of South Asia, Indian Subcontinent or whatever, this has to be understood: . Even ] was born in ], however, we cannot say that Sanskrit is spoken in Afghanistan, unless we have an ''exceptional'' source. ] (] '''·''' ]) 21:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:*On March 28, 2022, at the time of by ], the article had 14,876 words. |
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:*Three days before ] 2019, at the time of by ], the article had 12,460 words |
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:*On ] 2018, at the time of this edit by ], the article had |
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:*On the day after ], 2018, the article had |
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:*On ] 2017, at the time of by ], the article had 3,950 words, and finally, |
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:*On ] 2016, at the time of by ], this article had ''3,907'' words. |
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:So there seems to have been a jump in 2018. Can someone help with identifying and reducing the additions? Thanks. ]] 15:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::Just to mention, you can see a size graph (in bytes) here on Xtools: § Year counts. It confirms there was a jump in 2018. — ] (]) 17:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Much of it is related to the overblown sections §Phonology and §Morphology. We have a dedicated article ] that also includes a phonology section. The two sections in this article should be trimmed to summary size, with the rest merged into the subarticle, ideally with another subarticle about Sanskrit phonology which oddly doesn't exist–with Sanskrit being the first language in the world to be described in a structuralist phonological framework millenia before ]. Apart from the current length issue, this is also a classical case ("aptly" so for a ''classical'' language) of unsychronized content forking. |
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:::Moving/merging the content will a formidable task. For my part, I have to pass, at least for the near future. –] (]) 20:28, 17 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::: Agree about those two sections, but note that {{alink|Writing systems}} is half again as large as either of them, and has a long {{alink|Epigraphy}} subsection (6.5kb, 1,016 words). Would be nice to summarize it, but there is currently no ] article, but we do have ], with some additional information at ], some sources at '']'', and bits and pieces of various biographies, such as of ], ], ], ] et al., and sources like '']'', '']'' and '']''.<sup>[redirect]</sup> That ought to be more than enough to spin off a new article and summarize it here. ] (]) 20:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Would you like to bell the cat {{re|Mathglot}} or you {{re|W.andrea}}? ]] 21:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::What about {{re|Joshua Jonathan|Ms Sarah Welch|Dāsānudāsa}}? ]] 21:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I must admit, I'm unsure as to what the problem is here. What's the issue with the article being as long as it is? Is it just a case of being too much information to digest? Or putting strain on the servers? Too long to load? My instinct is that the more detailed it is, the better! ] (]) 22:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I tagged it primarily because it took a long time to load. I was on a slow connection and it took something like 10 seconds, and all I wanted to know was the ISO 639 code. But also, long articles can have too much information, yeah; ] says {{tq|Large articles may have readability and technical issues. A page of about 10,000 words takes roughly 40 minutes to read at ], which is right on the limit of the average ] of 40 to 50 minutes.}} — ] (]) 14:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::: I don't think we should be overly concerned about what SIZESPLIT says. It takes more than 40 minutes to read a book and people still buy books. On the flip side, studies have also shown that few people read past the lead of a Misplaced Pages article, and yet nobody is saying we should chop articles down to four paragraphs. I prefer the portion of the size guideline at ], which says: |
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::::::::: "{{xt|Sometimes an article simply needs to be big to give the subject adequate coverage}}" |
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:::::::: and if Sanskrit isn't one of those subjects, then I don't know what is. I'm all for carefully splitting content to other articles per ]—books have chapters, after all, and long chapters have sections—but I don't think we should remove good content that some serious readers might want to read simply to adhere to some idea about average reader behavior. I'm more interested in catering to the curious or passionate reader with some staying power and who can't get enough of the topic. Let the average readers drift off after 40 minutes and go do something else. ] (]) 19:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I'm less worried about the overall size too (although loading time of large articles can indeed be a pain on mobile browers when the connection is slow), but it's obvious that important pieces of information grow out of sync in multiple articles when there's no hierarchical structure of topics and subtopics. Sanskrit grammar is obviously a notable topic of its own, so anyone who wants to know the details can be guided there with a hatnote, while in this article, we can keep a short outline. And ideally in a less weirdly-written style without all those in-text attributions ("According to Ruppel", "states Jamison"). I've just noticed it now, which perfectly illustrates the point of concentration span ;) –] (]) 19:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Thanks, {{re|Mathglot}}, for the insightful analysis. ]] 21:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Thanks {{re|Austronesier}} for the in-depth suggestions. ]] 21:36, 18 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::: {{ec}} Actually, I've started on it: see ]. First thing I noticed, is a rather haphazard organization of the existing content, as a mix of timeline-based, and region-based content (and the former is not in chrono order). I will continue for a little bit more, then pause to let anyone jump in; will give you a sign shortly... ] (]) 21:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Great, Mathglot! More power to you. ]] 21:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::: Done for now, and released to ]. Section {{alink|Epigraphy}} here has been summarized via excerpts, reducing total length by 14kb. The actual body text has been only very minimally changed, so there is plenty of room for improvement to it. Thanks, ] (]) 04:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Remove Phonology Section "Pronunciation"? == |
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indeed. Compare "eastern Mediterranean" at ]. ] is really the best we can do here, greater accuracy is neither possible nor desireable. --] <small>]</small> 07:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC) |
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It doesn't really do much; it's pronunciation guide is just IPA transcription. Since these transcriptions are already given in the sections titled "vowels" & "consonants", it seems redundant to keep it. ] (]) 15:43, 28 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:There are 49,000 speakers, if they all die, we will consider including even the Eastern Hemisphere. ] is the best proven fact here, all the rest is a hypothesis. Find some evidence to back your claim that it spoken anywhere outside India, then we can include that. If you want that in, the burden of proof is, obviously, on you. To enlarge this label and include 17 sovereign nations that have literally NOTHING to do with Sanskrit is merely pushing either POV or just a wholesome waste of time!! ] (] '''·''' ]) 08:52, 27 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== "is"? == |
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the 2001 census records 14,000 native speakers. |
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Your behaviour is just disruptive at this point. May I ask you to consider the ''very first line'' at the ] article? ''For other uses, see ].'' |
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By linking to ], you refer to the ''Republic of India''. ] tells you that "India" may ''also'' refer to a ''region'', known as (culturally) ] or (geologically) ]. --] <small>]</small> 09:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:His behaviour was disruptive right from the beginning, just that I tried to prevent it earlier and got labeled by you as his opponent. Now enjoy his company. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 16:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:Kris, just because Sudharsansn has a problem doesn't mean you're doing great. Conversation on this talkpage has really been very tedious recently. --] <small>]</small> 08:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::You missed the wood for the trees, that's all I pointed out. Ultimately I got blocked for trying to protect referenced content from being removed. I have no wish to come between your edit wars. Have fun. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 11:09, 28 November 2008 (UTC) |
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This is for the Sociolinguistics professor - look who first linked to the Indian Subcontinent. <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 16:52, 27 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Most of the article refers to Sanskrit using present tense. If the language is extinct, is it appropriate to use "was" instead? Or does the revival mean it is no longer extinct? ] (]) 17:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:your point being? I stand by this edit. "Greater India" is fine too. There is room for discussion, but the discussion needs to be ''informed'' and conducted in ''good faith''. Instead, it has been ''uninformed'' and ''immature''. --] <small>]</small> 08:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:Extinct means that the language is no longer spoken ''and'' that no one studies or can study it. A dead language is one that is attested and can be studied and learned. Since Sanskrit still exists, it can be referred to in the present tense ] (]) 04:24, 30 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::The professional linguist ], remember? Atleast I'm trying to contribute content with the good intent of improving the article (like I did to pronouns section, compounds section etc) much of which were repeatedly reverted in bad faith by you-know-who. Sudharsansn, the sociolinguistics professor, hasnt made a single meaningful contribution to any of the sanskrit-related language articles. Need I then go into the question of who is disruptive and who's not? <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 11:09, 28 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::Read ] ] (]) 15:33, 29 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Tell that to Dbachmann please, he wanted me to indicate "the point" <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000">] (])</span> 16:15, 29 November 2008 (UTC) |
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The note's sentence ("...suggests that by the start of the common era, hardly anybody other than learned monks had the capacity to understand the old Prakrit languages...") refers to the "start of the common era", which was a couple millennia ago, but ethnologue.com, the website of ref 121, only documents current language status, which means the reference is irrelevant. Pali's current status says nothing about its status 2000 years ago.
The introduction to the article on Sanskrit is nearly illegible. An introduction should be a concise synthesis -- clear, easy to understand, and memorable -- that prepares the reader for what follows and sparks curiosity to learn more.
Instead, it presents a visually cluttered and dense paragraph, difficult to read and even harder to grasp and retain.
It doesn't really do much; it's pronunciation guide is just IPA transcription. Since these transcriptions are already given in the sections titled "vowels" & "consonants", it seems redundant to keep it. AchyuthaVM (talk) 15:43, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Most of the article refers to Sanskrit using present tense. If the language is extinct, is it appropriate to use "was" instead? Or does the revival mean it is no longer extinct? guninvalid (talk) 17:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Done Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 02:55, 22 September 2024 (UTC)