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I do not understand this sentence (really just the first clause):
{{Talk header}}
:Advocacy for its use has sometimes been criticized as due to political correctness; those who prefer it say it is a matter of respect and politeness
{{American English}}
How is the terms political correctness in any way a "criticism" (and does this mean that it therefore is not a reason for using the term)? It seems to me that it doesn't matter whether it is good politics or just plain polite, either way is a good reason for using the term. SR
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== Please add back Louisiana Creole French Under Languages ==
* I wholeheartedly agree. In defense of the originator's phrasing, though, they may have meant that those who use terms like "political correctness" ''mean'' the term to be negative. There are some folk who want to defend their right to use whatever terms hey grew up with, and for NPOV sake, I guess they ought to be represented. I just don't agree with 'em, personally. ]


I noticed it has been removed without explanation and as an LA Creole myself this is an important aspect of AA Heritage and culture that has been wiped from the page. it has been there for a decade and was only removed this year. ] (]) 21:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
I think the page should be retitled "Black American" since "African American" is ambiguous and not as recognized as some people want. And "political correctness" is bad because it suggests that calling black people "African Americans" will magically make them being an oppressed underclass go away. Who in their right mind gives a damn whether black people are called black or "African Americans"? And no, the fact that black people request this doesn't mean anything. What does "respect" gain them when they largely remain poor, uneducated and oppressed? "respect" isn't something you can eat. --Anon


:According to the Wiki, there are only 77 thousand native speakers.
:I think that would be inadvisable, since the most common official usage is presently African-American. You'll never get a consensus, since a lot of what people call themselves is both based on generation and region, so we might as well stay with the official. And it does actually matter what people want to call themselves, by the way. In my family, the West Indian faction definitely want to be called West Indian, NOT black, and my neice and nephew prefer "mixed" to "mulatto". That said, I think of myself as mixed (specifically a mostly German-Scots mutt), and HATE to describe myself as a color, when everybody else gets to define themselves by ethnic heritage...]
:Even if all of them are African American (which is highly unlikely) it would constitute a very tiny minority of African Americans. It's removal probably has to do with that.
:Inclusions of such minorities of <0.1% for a language, amongst other topics, would clutter the article. ] (]) 02:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
::It was only listed under the languages tab on the side, so the argument of it cluttering the article makes no sense. Also, a Louisiana Creole cuisine is a language of African-American people from people that are of Louisiana Creole Heritage. It seems like you are not very educated on this topic respectfully, but I don’t expect many people to really know about our history as LA Creoles. My reason for saying this was a lack of understanding made apparent to me in your first few sentences when you say you doubt that All of these speakers are African-American, when it is quite literally language of that group, a specific cultural heritage within African-American people. It’s a part of the diversity of AA people based on regional heritage and history.
::By the same logic you’ve used, Gullah Geechee should be removed as well because it’s an incredibly tiny fraction of African-American people based on regional cultural heritage, but it still is a part of it which is why it’s listed. This is why they both were listed side-by-side until February of this year. Again is erasure of the diversity of African-American people. ] (]) 03:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
:::My bad. I got redirected to Louisiana French. This language has only 10,000 speakers according to wiki. Which would probably mean there are over 100 languages with more speakers in the African American community.
:::Unless African American is to mean those largely decendant from United States black slaves imported to the US over 150 years ago, it might reduce speakers above 10k to 50 langauges. That is still a long list.
:::I suppose however that the language having it's genesis among American blacks does merit its mention however. So I suppose I am inclined to support your decision.
:::(Also according to the wiki lede, it has other racial groups speaking it. This seems like a shoehorn but I'm inclined to believe not everyone of these 10k people are black.) ] (]) 21:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
:Done. I think it makes perfect sense. While a majority don't speak it, it's uniquely pertinent to the heritage and cultural history of African Americans. : ) ] (]) 05:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
::I moved the "other languages" to the section in the body, ]. ] has a strong tendency to restrict the contents of the infobox to "Key facts". ] (]) 07:45, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
:::Info box discourse is insane on here ] (]) 08:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC)


==Wiki Education assignment: Black American Music F24==
::Mega dittos JHK! BTW Anon, "Black American" is both an obvious misnomer and is far more ambiguous than the more informative "African American" -- a term that describes where someone's ancestors came from. Besides this issue, is the fact that JHK brought up -- "African American" is the term most often used. --]
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/University_at_Albany_SUNY/Black_American_Music_F24_(Fall_2024) | assignments = ], ] | start_date = 2024-08-26 | end_date = 2024-12-16 }}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 19:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)</span>
If you don't like describing yourself by a color, then complain about the fact that people care what color your skin is. This would be a perfectly legitimate complaint since it's possible to raise children to be color-blind. As for ethnicity, I HATE having to describe myself by an ethnicity; so how about that?


If you want to describe yourself by ethnicity for some weird ass reason then why don't you use an ethnic group? 'African' is '''not''' an ethnic group! 'European' isn't an ethnic group either, just a euphemism for 'white'. Or are we supposed to call them ethnic groups because the word 'race' is not PC anymore?


== Change title to Black Americans? ==
Let's empirically test whether 'african american' is supposed to be informative or if it's just supposed to be the PC gloss over a race term. The test is this: what would people call an australian aborigine who moves to the USA?


Since this post is talking about Black Americans, to the exclusion of North Africans, should the title not be Black Americans? ] (]) 18:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
If you're so ignorant of your heritage that you don't even ''know'' what ethnic group you're from then you don't deserve to call yourself by one! -- ark


:] applies. African American is far more popular than Black American based on Ngrams search. ] (]) 05:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
:ark, perhaps you misunderstand the neature of an encyclopedia. There is a term, "African-American," that is in wide use, at least in the United States. It is reasonable to have an article describing how the phrase is used, its history, and its meaning(s). If there is public debate over the use of the term, a good article will also describe that debate. (It is my sense that there is little if any debate today over the use of this term). Whether I or you or anyone else personally does not like this term is irrelevant. And if you or I do not understand why people use this term -- well, isn't this the purpose of an encyclopedia, to help us understand? Perhaps it is time for you to re-read the NPOV policy, and otehr guidelines for Misplaced Pages. SR
:This debate happens so often it's not even funny. I have no idea why but it won't go away. ] (]) 23:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)


== Francisco Menéndez, Fort Mose ==
Apparently, you don't understand the role reality plays in an encyclopedia entry. Just because Americans use the euphemism African American (whether or not at the request of the native black population) doesn't negate the fact that the USA is an incredibly racist country and is presently waging a race war against blacks which harkens back to the 60s.


The ] model of identity and representation has been historically characterized by its multi-faceted nature, which transcends strict racial categorizations. Numerous figures exemplify this complexity, including ], ], ] ] that established the first commercial ] in the Americas,<ref>{{Cite web |title=Review {{!}} February 2012: 1493 by Charles Mann '76 {{!}} Amherst College |url=https://www.amherst.edu/alumni/learn/amherstreads/pastfeatures/2012-features/1493/review |access-date=2024-10-28 |website=www.amherst.edu}}</ref> ], ] in Florida, Juan de Villanueva, ], Juan Beltrán, Pedro Fulupo, Juan Bardales, Antonio Pérez, Gómez de León, Leonor Galiano, ] and Juan García. Additionally, ] stands out as a significant figure in this discourse; he is recognized as the first black African to attend a European university, ultimately achieving the status of professor. This highlights the notion that the ] identity is not monolithic and is instead enriched by diverse contributions across racial and ethnic lines. Such examples serve to challenge simplistic perceptions of race within the historical narrative of Hispanic culture. ] (]) 18:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
When ] was first invented, it may or may not have been honest social engineering. To determine that, you'd have to look at the socio-political conditions when the PC movement started. You'd have to check whether black Americans were winning gains or losing them.


== Racial or ethnic group ? ==
But nowadays, black Americans are steadily losing everything they gained in previous decades. So the continued use 'African American' is just a shallow and tragic (or shallow and cynical) attempt to deny reality.


Until recently, the lead sentence had "are an ethnic group". Now, it's "racial group". I just reverted an addition claiming that African American normally refers to the ethnic group, Black Americans to the racial group. Any thoughts ? ] (]) 06:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
An explanation of all these issues is relevant to an encyclopedia entry. The purpose of Misplaced Pages isn't to reinforce American delusions and myth-making (at least, I hope not). The notion that white Americans are any the less racist by using a transparent euphemism for race and blacks is just such a delusion.


:Should be more clear about ethnicity vs racial identification (as its clear its not clear to all). As of now we have an odd round about lead that takes a whole paragraph to say something simple.....just say ''Generally, the term ] denotes a racial identification, while ] American refers to an ethnicity, specifically Americans with ancestry from one or more of the African continent's Black racial groups'' <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
The notion that conservative and liberal American attitudes to a political issue (such as PC) are the only ones that count is another American myth. Just because you've got "what the Republicans say" and "what the Democrats say" in the article doesn't mean you've covered all sides of the issue. Which is precisely why I am bringing up the sides of the issue the article never talks about. And in so doing I am helping in the construction of an NPOV article. What are you doing? (Other than being an arrogant ass.)
::But what do we do with the first sentence ? ] (]) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:::“African American,”refers to people in the United States who self identity as having origins from ]. Generally, the term Black denotes a racial identification, while African American refers to an ethnicity, specifically Americans with ancestry from one or more of the African continent's Black racial groups. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 08:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
::That’s not an ethnicity. It’s a grouping because Africans have so many different ethnic groups so just “Americans with ancestry from the continent of Africa” would not be an ethnic group. Ethnic Black Americans are the Black Americans that share ancestry through chattel slavery and that is distinctive culture and people this Misplaced Pages page is trying to capture. An African immigrant wouldn’t be an ethnic Black American they’d be -American such as “Nigerian Americans” “Ghanaian Americans” and we already have Misplaced Pages pages for them. ] (]) 13:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:We should say it's both a racial and an ethnic group. Both are mentioned and supported in the lead and body. ] (] / ]) 13:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
::I tried "racial or ethnic group" because the word "or" is as ambiguous as the problem itself. I also used Moxy's idea of self identification. But as I read the style guide, it is not clear whether "Black" and "African American" can be clearly distinguished. Just a try, feel free to comment and / or improve. ] (]) 16:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:::African-American is strictly an American term. No other Nation uses it and this should be made clear. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 20:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
{{Ping|Nampa DC}} You changed it back to "ethnic group", although at least three editors seem to prefer "racial group" or "ethnic or racial group". Could you please explain ? ] (]) 18:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)


== Immigrants ==
So let's recapitulate:


The article reads, "While some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify as African American, the majority of first-generation immigrants do not, preferring to identify with their nation of origin."
# Describing someone by skin colour is just as legitimate as describing them by other physical characteristics like height, hair and eye color, weight, build, et cetera.
# Most people (both white '''and''' black) go beyond that and take the illegitimate step of describing people's ''identity'' by their skin color. This involves a completely artificial concept called "race".
# America is a very racist place (one who believes that "race" exists and is important) as is Brazil and pretty much the entire planet.
# Yet only Americans have bizarre race politics in which acknowledging the fact that people are racist (or that people have visibly different skin color) is verbotten. Instead, one is supposed to use "ethnicity".
# In fact, terms like "African American" have little or no relation to ethnicity and are just euphemisms for race terms. Most people (even most liberals) do not know and do not care about the difference between a Nigerian and an Ethiopian. They're both supposed to be "African". (Which is especially absurd once one realizes that Africa is the most ethnically diverse place in the entire freaking world.)
# There is a widespread delusion that liberals are "less racist" because they use euphemisms for blunt race terms.


However, the citations listed do not support this statement and one source actually say the opposite:
All of these things are important and relevant to an encyclopedia entry. As much as Americans like to live in denial, an entry that takes their own view of their country as unquestionable fact will be useless to non-Americans. Principally because it will be false. -- ark


"However, as the number of African and Caribbean blacks immigrating to the USA has increased, so have the chances that someone who identifies as black or African American is a first- or second-generation immigrant."
: There is nothing in the article that denies that "the USA is an incredibly racist country and is presently waging a race war against blacks which harkens back to the 60s." Moreover, there is nothing about the phrase "African-American" that denies that "the USA is an incredibly racist country and is presently waging a race war against blacks which harkens back to the 60s;" conversely, use of the phrase does not suggest that racism against Blacks does not exist. Nothing in the article suggests that merely by using this phrase, one has proven that one is not a racist.
-Who is an ‘African American’? Definition evolves as USA does
Tracy Scott Forson
USA TODAY NETWORK 2018 ] (]) 07:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)


== Have a question .... ==
Only technically. It is strongly implied though. How? Americans already believe it and the article doesn't dispute it in any way, but subtly validates their own worldview.


Please help me . As far as I understand "African Americans(AA)" means those "Americans(Citizens of USA)" who had or whose parents had either African citizenship ,or ancestry . Then why make AA= Black Americans(BA)? The term AA is ethnic ?or based on skin?colour or based on ancestry ?
: By the way, I observe that you use the term "Black." You know, there was a time when Blacks were called something else in this country (and there are still some people who call them something else). The fact that you call them "Blacks" does not change the fact that there continues to be a considerable amount of racism against African-Americans in this country, though. Indeed, there are many racists who call African-Americans "Black." Personally, I see no reason to assume that therefore anyone who calls an African American "Black" is necessarily a racist. But you never know! SR


There are "black skin colour people" outside Africa too .
When talking to racists, it is often needful to use their language. I wouldn't get very far if I just denied that such a thing as "race" exists. And while race should have no role in everyday or political life anymore than hair colour does, the fact that it has and continues to do so means it must be taken into account by anyone interested in sociology and psychology.
So when we say AA why BA is automatically assumed. Example: "IF" a white south african citizen become usa citizen he will be AA but not BA . Similarly those from other continent who fortunately or unfortunately have black skin colour will be BA once become USA citizen even if they are not AA . ] (]) 13:41, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


:Hi @]. My understanding of the term African American, refers to decendants of enslaved people. Beyond that, I'm not sure. In UK it's generally Black British. This is because we have black people who originated from all over the world, especially the British colonies. I'm unsure what Americans use for white South Africans? ] (]) 14:34, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
(I got ] and ] confused when I ranted about liberals versus conservative views.) -- ark
::Yeah that's the problem.

::No disrespect to history of USA or its people or their struggles but the term AA and BA being used as interchangeable, which "I" believe is kinda dumb , you can't equal racial and ethnic optics , those are separate things or so I believe . ] (]) 21:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:ARK, The point is not to decide which term is the least racist -- it is to use the most accepted term. If we were working in the 1950s, we'd say Negro. And you are somewhat correct in that African is not an ethnicity -- clearly there are many ethnic groups and within those groups many different tribes in Africa. However, the reality in America is that most Africans brought over as slaves were deliberately separated from fellow tribesmen, and through the generations most African-Americans have become people whose African background is, well, pan-African, rather than from any particular African ethnic group.

:As for your somewhat spurious inquiry about an Australian Aborigine who re-located to the US, he would most likely consider himself Aborigine or maybe Australian. Moreover, most of the people I deal with (generally my students or collegues) who come from parts of Africa WOULD NOT consider themselves African-American -- they are Somali-American, Ghanaian-American. Your insistence on using Black is somewhat offensive, not because it is not PC (something I generally question), but because it reduces people to skin color. Ethnic heritage is important and interesting. Learning about different peoples' backgrounds helps to build understanding and break down the barriers that seeing things in terms of color tends to create. ]

Regarding pan-Africanism. I agree, I just wish it was ''explained that way''.

Regarding skin color. There is nothing inherent in skin color that logically entails a tendency for people to reduce others to their skin color. Just because people note others are black, brown or white doesn't necessarily imply that they reduce them to their skin color. This is important because it means that noting skin color doesn't produce racist people. Rather, the reverse happens; racism causes people to note (obsess over) skin color.
(Many people seem to have problems distinguishing between correlation, causation and reverse
-causation. I don't and I consider such beneath me.)

By the way, when you implicitly refer to 'African American's' backgrounds, it's ironic to note that little to none of their background has anything to do with Africa. The pan-Africanism is a mythology which some American black leaders have deliberately constructed over the last few decades. So in my view, 'African American' is about as much of an ethnicity as 'Atheist American'. Doubly so since 'American' isn't even an ethnicity; sociologists recognize about a dozen different ethnicities in the continental US!

You think that using black and brown is offensive? Well, I think the insistence on avoiding it is offensive. It's magical thinking. It's a cargo cult. It's rearranging the organizational charts. And I find all such things ridiculous at best and offensive when taken seriously. Now, if people could stop being so damned "offended" long enough to provide a reasonable argument (which you did with African, thank you) then that would be a Good Thing, don't you think?

Here's another argument for you to think about. The US has never recognized dual cultural heritage; this is the country where the Melting Pot is the official doctrine, remember? So there are Americans and then there are non-Americans. Black isn't an ethnicity so a black American is still an American. What do you think that makes an "African" American?

An interesting anecdote about Somali-Americans. It seems the US government has been deporting children of Somali-Americans born on US soil. To the gov, there's no such thing as 'Somali-Americans'.

:On a tangential note, there are considerable cultural tensions (at least in Minneapolis) between Somali-Americans (i.e. "of Somali ancestry") and African-Americans (i.e., "descended from slaves brought forcibly to the USA"). I'm not an expert on such matters, but two aspects I've noted are: (1) Somali immigrants and their children, as was the case with previous waves of immigrants, are motivated to do well academically and acculturate to the economically successful strata of society. (2) Some groups of African-Americans resent the success of their Somali-American counterparts.
:I've also heard stories of children from Africa being teased by their African-American classmates for "not being black enough". (!!) What bugs me is, if these people have their panties so up in a bunch about this, why don't they take it as a challenge to do better? &lt;sarcasm on&gt; Oh, wait, silly me, I'm speaking from the position of a middle-class European in America, a member of the above-mentioned "economically successful strata of society" and couldn't ''possibly'' know what I'm talking about. *whaps forehead*&lt;/sarcasm off&gt;
:Apologies for the mini-rant. Needless to say, US American notions of race, ethnicity, and cultural identity are intertwined and complex. The fact that we're able to talk about them in this manner is in itself a sign of progress. Let's not lose sight of that. ]

I'm pretty sure that any ethnologist would class black Americans as belonging to whatever American geo-ethnic group they belong to, with no distinction between black and white. If this isn't so then I'm certain that the ethnic groups of black Americans are merely subgroups of the major recognized geo-ethnic groups. IOW, that there is no such thing as an "American black ethnicity". Tough cookies but this is a matter of fact for sociologists to debate, though the delusion that laypeople have a say in the matter should be duly recorded in an encyclopedia entry. -- ark

----

] changed:

:'''African American''' (or '''African-American''') is a term used to describe ]s of ]n heritage. More broadly and less formally, it is sometimes used for any black person living in ].

to

:'''African American''' (or '''African-American''') is a term used to describe ]s of ]n or ] heritage.

Perhaps I'm misremembering my history, but isn't the black population of the Caribbean largely of the same origins as that of the US: descendants of Africans brought in and forced into slave labor during the colonial era? Ergo, Caribbean blacks ''are'' of African heritage? --]

:Exactly my point, Brion. But I couldn't figure out who to work that idea into the article. Would you please do that for me? --]

::Well, I'd have done it by not bothering to mention "Caribbean" in the first place. ;) --]

----
I just edited some cut-and-paste garble out of the third paragraph and it struck me: Just what term do those who criticize "African-American" as "political correctness" propose to replace it? And what claim to the right to do so are they asserting? Is it those who disdain "colored people" and favor "people of color"? Or it those who . . . who what? Are racists, perhaps.

To me it is a matter of respect for the fact that African-Americans put up with a boatload of stupidity and worse every day of their lives. As Colin Powell says, "When you're black, you're black all day." So what possible objection can there be to respecting their wishes as to their preferred designation? ] 06:19 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

:I'm not sure what's up with that, but it might be a resistance to any categorization. I've repeatedly heard complaints from various advocates that terminology denoting a certain group was demeaning in that it "labeled" them. These objections may stem from a desire to avoid unfavorable stereotyping. Anyway, as time goes by the usage of terms shifts, and it would be nice if the Misplaced Pages could chronicle these shifts. --]

----
Question: Would the term African American be used for Black American citizens coming from the West Indies? If a Black British person took US citizenship would they become an "African American"? I am interesed in how direct the link with America has to be. --Anonymous

:In the early nineties I read an article in a linguistic journal. I think the title was "Self Reference Terms for Decendants of American Slaves". Published in the early 1990s or late 1980s. I'll see if I can find it. (Personally I don't like the term African American. I believe whites like to use it so they can put Black Americans in with the emigrant groups and forget about the middle passage and slavery.) ] 20:42 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

::I believe ''African American'', like other positive terms before it, has become popular at the behest of African Americans, not whites. As for your other question, many leading members of the community have come from a West Indian background, including ], ], and ], which pretty much covers the possible range, yet they are all known as American Negroes or African Americans. On the other hand, if ] moved to this country, fascinating thought, I'm pretty sure we'd think he was English. Since race is a social classification, there isn't going to be a heck of a lot of logic about it.]

:I'm sorry. I'm Gbleem and I was trying to answer the West Indies question written by someone else. I took the liberty of adding an Anonymous signature to that question. The article I mentioned talks about the path of the term African-American. Sure Black people started it but it was introduced to most Whites by Jessie Jackson. The intention by Blacks may be to have a term that has the same status as Italian-American or Asian-American but the result is a loss of significant history in the minds of other ethnic groups.
:The online database I found doesn't go back before 1995. I'll try to get by the UMKC Library next week and find that article. "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together In the Cafeteria?" by Beverly Tatum might have some interesting insites. I read it a few years ago but I remember her saying she liked Black because she was in college when "Black is Beautiful" was a popular slogan. I most likely heard that slogan on T.V. when I was a kid. (I'm 34) ]

::Hi Gbleem, I took the further liberty of indenting our contributions to make it clear who's talking when. I really don't think anyone has ever forgotten that black people came here as slaves, regardless of the term used, from the most offensive to the most favored. And, if you've read memoirs by black Americans who have visited Africa, they almost always come back with a conviction that they are Americans, not Africans. ]

----

"The African American race is the most punished race in North America. African American males are more likely to be imprisoned than any other demographic group, especially between the ages of 20 and 39. African American public school students are most likely to be assigned to special-education classes."

I find this statement very POV, coming as it does, under the rubric of "Slavery and Oppression". One could just as well say "the African American race is the most criminal race" or "the African American race is the most criminally victimised race". All these facts are true, and their significance can only be determined by a deeper analysis. According to a Federal Report "Mearly all of the aggregate differences among sentences for whites, blacks, and Hispanics during 1989-90 can be attributed to characteristics of offenses and offenders that current law and sentencing guidelines establish as legitimate considerations in sentencing decisions." -- ] 00:22, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)


----
Removed '' Since then it has become a definition accepted by the ].''

This is clearly not the case in the UK. I find it very strange when US people say "I didn't know he was black", when seeing a picture of someone's grand-parents. -- ] 09:36, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

----
The latest edit made (by Karukera) was changing this:

''or even a European nation''

to this:

''or even an European nation''

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't go around saying "an Errr-uh-pe-an". Should not the /j/ sound take the word "a"? I don't say "an yam" or "an year" or "an Yugoslavian", do you? And we don't say "an unicorn" or "an uniform" or "an urinal" either, with what sound like they begin with Y. So, forget the "E" at the beginning for a moment . . . what about "(a|an) European" or "(a|an) eucalyptus"? Should we leave this spelling correction in, or revert it? Thoughts? ] 02:13, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Someone removed the fact that Af-Ams have lower average IQ (~80) than white or asian (~100). This is not in itself a racist comment. It seems to be politically correct to say that all races have equal intelligence, but this is simply not true. Consider dogs, for instance. There are many "races" of dogs, but some races are smarter than others. There is debate that IQ does not measure intelligence. Given this valid contention, it should be stated in the article that "Although African Americans have a lower average IQ compared to whites and Asians, it should also be mentioned that IQ tests have been criticized as being invalid measures of intelligence". ] 10:27, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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Previous discussions concerning the infobox in the top right corner of the article can be found at Talk:African Americans/summary.

Please add back Louisiana Creole French Under Languages

I noticed it has been removed without explanation and as an LA Creole myself this is an important aspect of AA Heritage and culture that has been wiped from the page. it has been there for a decade and was only removed this year. 66.163.89.16 (talk) 21:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

According to the Wiki, there are only 77 thousand native speakers.
Even if all of them are African American (which is highly unlikely) it would constitute a very tiny minority of African Americans. It's removal probably has to do with that.
Inclusions of such minorities of <0.1% for a language, amongst other topics, would clutter the article. Gelbom (talk) 02:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
It was only listed under the languages tab on the side, so the argument of it cluttering the article makes no sense. Also, a Louisiana Creole cuisine is a language of African-American people from people that are of Louisiana Creole Heritage. It seems like you are not very educated on this topic respectfully, but I don’t expect many people to really know about our history as LA Creoles. My reason for saying this was a lack of understanding made apparent to me in your first few sentences when you say you doubt that All of these speakers are African-American, when it is quite literally language of that group, a specific cultural heritage within African-American people. It’s a part of the diversity of AA people based on regional heritage and history.
By the same logic you’ve used, Gullah Geechee should be removed as well because it’s an incredibly tiny fraction of African-American people based on regional cultural heritage, but it still is a part of it which is why it’s listed. This is why they both were listed side-by-side until February of this year. Again is erasure of the diversity of African-American people. 65.43.209.212 (talk) 03:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
My bad. I got redirected to Louisiana French. This language has only 10,000 speakers according to wiki. Which would probably mean there are over 100 languages with more speakers in the African American community.
Unless African American is to mean those largely decendant from United States black slaves imported to the US over 150 years ago, it might reduce speakers above 10k to 50 langauges. That is still a long list.
I suppose however that the language having it's genesis among American blacks does merit its mention however. So I suppose I am inclined to support your decision.
(Also according to the wiki lede, it has other racial groups speaking it. This seems like a shoehorn but I'm inclined to believe not everyone of these 10k people are black.) Gelbom (talk) 21:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Done. I think it makes perfect sense. While a majority don't speak it, it's uniquely pertinent to the heritage and cultural history of African Americans. : ) Gabecube45 (talk) 05:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
I moved the "other languages" to the section in the body, African Americans#Language. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE has a strong tendency to restrict the contents of the infobox to "Key facts". Rsk6400 (talk) 07:45, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Info box discourse is insane on here Gabecube45 (talk) 08:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Black American Music F24

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2024 and 16 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mensahrunit, Erobertsonn (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Kpcw24 (talk) 19:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)


Change title to Black Americans?

Since this post is talking about Black Americans, to the exclusion of North Africans, should the title not be Black Americans? Captchacatcher (talk) 18:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME applies. African American is far more popular than Black American based on this Ngrams search. SKAG123 (talk) 05:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
This debate happens so often it's not even funny. I have no idea why but it won't go away. Gabecube45 (talk) 23:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Francisco Menéndez, Fort Mose

The Hispanic model of identity and representation has been historically characterized by its multi-faceted nature, which transcends strict racial categorizations. Numerous figures exemplify this complexity, including San Martín de Porres, Beatriz de Palacios, Spanish conquistador Juan Garrido that established the first commercial wheat farm in the Americas, Estevanico, Francisco Menendez in Florida, Juan de Villanueva, Juan Valiente, Juan Beltrán, Pedro Fulupo, Juan Bardales, Antonio Pérez, Gómez de León, Leonor Galiano, Teresa Juliana de Santo Domingo and Juan García. Additionally, Juan Latino stands out as a significant figure in this discourse; he is recognized as the first black African to attend a European university, ultimately achieving the status of professor. This highlights the notion that the Hispanic identity is not monolithic and is instead enriched by diverse contributions across racial and ethnic lines. Such examples serve to challenge simplistic perceptions of race within the historical narrative of Hispanic culture. 31.164.184.21 (talk) 18:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Racial or ethnic group ?

Until recently, the lead sentence had "are an ethnic group". Now, it's "racial group". I just reverted an addition claiming that African American normally refers to the ethnic group, Black Americans to the racial group. Any thoughts ? Rsk6400 (talk) 06:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Should be more clear about ethnicity vs racial identification (as its clear its not clear to all). As of now we have an odd round about lead that takes a whole paragraph to say something simple.....just say Generally, the term Black denotes a racial identification, while African American refers to an ethnicity, specifically Americans with ancestry from one or more of the African continent's Black racial groups Moxy🍁 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
But what do we do with the first sentence ? Rsk6400 (talk) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
“African American,”refers to people in the United States who self identity as having origins from Sub-Saharan Africa. Generally, the term Black denotes a racial identification, while African American refers to an ethnicity, specifically Americans with ancestry from one or more of the African continent's Black racial groups. APA style guide Moxy🍁 08:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
That’s not an ethnicity. It’s a grouping because Africans have so many different ethnic groups so just “Americans with ancestry from the continent of Africa” would not be an ethnic group. Ethnic Black Americans are the Black Americans that share ancestry through chattel slavery and that is distinctive culture and people this Misplaced Pages page is trying to capture. An African immigrant wouldn’t be an ethnic Black American they’d be -American such as “Nigerian Americans” “Ghanaian Americans” and we already have Misplaced Pages pages for them. Ajaystudies (talk) 13:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
We should say it's both a racial and an ethnic group. Both are mentioned and supported in the lead and body. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
I tried "racial or ethnic group" because the word "or" is as ambiguous as the problem itself. I also used Moxy's idea of self identification. But as I read the style guide, it is not clear whether "Black" and "African American" can be clearly distinguished. Just a try, feel free to comment and / or improve. Rsk6400 (talk) 16:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
African-American is strictly an American term. No other Nation uses it and this should be made clear. Moxy🍁 20:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@Nampa DC: You changed it back to "ethnic group", although at least three editors seem to prefer "racial group" or "ethnic or racial group". Could you please explain ? Rsk6400 (talk) 18:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Immigrants

The article reads, "While some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify as African American, the majority of first-generation immigrants do not, preferring to identify with their nation of origin."

However, the citations listed do not support this statement and one source actually say the opposite:

"However, as the number of African and Caribbean blacks immigrating to the USA has increased, so have the chances that someone who identifies as black or African American is a first- or second-generation immigrant." -Who is an ‘African American’? Definition evolves as USA does Tracy Scott Forson USA TODAY NETWORK 2018 96.241.225.164 (talk) 07:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Have a question ....

Please help me . As far as I understand "African Americans(AA)" means those "Americans(Citizens of USA)" who had or whose parents had either African citizenship ,or ancestry . Then why make AA= Black Americans(BA)? The term AA is ethnic ?or based on skin?colour or based on ancestry ?

There are "black skin colour people" outside Africa too . So when we say AA why BA is automatically assumed. Example: "IF" a white south african citizen become usa citizen he will be AA but not BA . Similarly those from other continent who fortunately or unfortunately have black skin colour will be BA once become USA citizen even if they are not AA . Mike, the regular nose job (talk) 13:41, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Mike, the regular nose job. My understanding of the term African American, refers to decendants of enslaved people. Beyond that, I'm not sure. In UK it's generally Black British. This is because we have black people who originated from all over the world, especially the British colonies. I'm unsure what Americans use for white South Africans? Knitsey (talk) 14:34, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Yeah that's the problem.
No disrespect to history of USA or its people or their struggles but the term AA and BA being used as interchangeable, which "I" believe is kinda dumb , you can't equal racial and ethnic optics , those are separate things or so I believe . Mike, the regular nose job (talk) 21:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
  1. "Review | February 2012: 1493 by Charles Mann '76 | Amherst College". www.amherst.edu. Retrieved 2024-10-28.
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