Talk:Incest: Difference between revisions

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	:(This proposal was later withdrawn by the committee, in spite of their own feelings on the issue, due to a large public outcry, which was mostly based on the misunderstanding that the committee was intending to legalize sexual relations between parents and their minor children, which it did not.)
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			== Real incest? ==
	I know nothing about this issue, but it seems it's probably presumptuous to pretend to be able to guess who understood or misunderstood what--short of actual surveys. (Maybe such surveys were done, though, and the author knows this.) It's also presumptuous, probably, to assume that the public outcry was due to this alleged misunderstanding. Or am I wrong? I.e., is there good, specific evidence for these things, or are they instead partisan claims? --]

			The article lists "Father–daughter and '''stepfather–stepdaughter''' sex is the most commonly reported form of adult–child incest" but stepfather–stepdaughter sex isn't considered real incest and only pseudo-incest in some cultures or under some religious codes. ] ]\|] 22:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
	:Well, the committee insists they were misunderstood, and they can even quote several submissions made to them which show clearly that a lot of people responding to the committee's discussion paper misunderstood what the committee's position was. See the committee's final report on sexual offences. -- SJK
			:Maybe stepfather–stepdaughter sex isn't real incest, but it's very bad mojo. I'm in the USA, and here it would be almost universally condemned and considered incest and labeled incest. You can't control how people use words. I can't speak for other countries. ] (]) 19:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
			::This isn't about "bad mojo", whatever that is, but about what constitutes incest so it should stick to the definition. While such relationships were seen as impropriety in biblical Jewish times they are not incest. I also don't know which part of the USA you are from but it seems such kind of relationships regularly pop up there without much chagrin. ] ]\|] 20:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

			== Distant cousins ==

			I have a 6th degree relative (second cousin). We share 2.6% of DNA. I could legally marry her in several EU countries. So, I don't understand the fuss about distant cousins: that isn't incest according to the laws of several EU countries. Why should we care if European nobles married their distant cousins centuries ago? The point: DNA similarity dilutes very quickly with each passing generation. Example: Romanian law prohibits incest, but marrying your second cousin isn't incest. Genetic similarity of relatives of the 9th degree (and higher) is negligible to all practical purposes. And that's what "distant cousins" means. ] (]) 04:50, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
			::Are you referring to the start of the "From the Middle Ages onward" section? I did rewrite that to clarify. I assume that the deal is that if you're occasionally marrying first cousins, but when it's not a first cousin it's probably a second or third cousin or something like that, almost always, for generation after generation, you're going to get problems (e.g. ]).. The passage doesn't say that. It does imply it. I don't think anyone knows for sure how much this contributed to ] etc. ] (]) 05:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

			==Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Culture==
	"Public outcry" often conveys meaningful messages. If the yellow press would scream "children in danger" while the proposal only affected adults, there's not much room for interpretation. But I was not there ... --]
			{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment \| course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/California_State_University_Northridge/Gender_and_Culture_(Fall_2023) \| assignments = ] \| start_date = 2023-08-28 \| end_date = 2023-12-18 }}

			<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 22:05, 6 October 2023 (UTC)</span>

			==Commonness of incest in ancient Greece==
			] and ], sibling incest was not common in ancient Greece and this is a typo. See for example this: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-hellenic-studies/article/abs/familiarity-breeds-incest-and-the-ptolemaic-dynasty/C60A3A24562133A347E54A8F5977D690
			It discusses how sibling incest was viewed as morally abhorrent and was outside Greek tradition. That is why the marriages were controversial. I am fixing the typo again, as I don't think this should really be controversial. Happy to go to WP:DRN if it really is.
			] (]) 15:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

			:Can you please do the edit together with the proper references to the reliable sources, i.e. not only change a word but to make such a change that it be accompanying by the references, so the other editors could see that those claims are properly backed up? I mentioned it in the talk page of ]
	The claims are absolutely spot on and could be verified by anyone willing to dig up enough old Australian newspapers. I can't see that they are relevent enough in the bigger picture to be worth mentioning in a general article on incest though.
			:Thank you! ] (]) 15:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
			::Okay, sure.
			::] (]) 15:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::Thank you for understanding! Sorry that I didn't mention it before, but when such changes are made without proper references, people may wrongly consider it vandalism, however, it may be indeed a good-faith edit. ] (]) 15:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::I actually noticed that the reference I googled happened to be the one already in the article, cited in that very line. So now it is cited twice.
			::::] (]) 15:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::You can give names to references in the "ref" tag and then use this tag multiple times only giving the name, without all other attributes. ] (]) 16:00, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::::I understand. I was just trying to fix a one word typo, based on the source that was already in that line of the article. Would you mind fixing it?
			::::::] (]) 16:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::@] I am not competent to determine whether it was a typo or intentional word, so I let other editors to decide on substance ] (]) 07:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::Since this page is semi-protected, and you are not logged in with a user account in wikipedia, it will take time for your edit to be reviewed by editors, they may further decide on whether to accept or revert the change. ] (]) 15:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

			== hic thalamum invasit natae vetitosque hymenaeos ==
	:No, probably not that relevant, but it is an interesting tidbit of information nonetheless. More importantly, it shows that while some people are willing to seriously question our societies taboos (or more accurately, the legal enforcement of those taboos), such questioning tends to produce a very vocal response in opposition. There may be more examples of this than the Standing Committee of Australian Attorneys-General Model Criminal Code Law Officers Committee, which isn't very important in the grand scheme of things -- its just the only one I am aware of. -- SJK

			Terrible mistranslation. “This man invaded (encroached upon) the wedding-bed of his daughter, a forbidden marriage.” ] (]) 11:22, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

			== The word incest doesn't specify that it is about sex ==

			The word incest literally means "impure". There is no specific mention of sex in that word, unlike for example "inbreeding". I've seen news articles about mothers who married their own sons and fathers who married their own daughters. I don't think e.g. "inwedding" is a recognised word, but it is established that sexuality and loyalty (or "romance") are not always both present (e.g. asexual but not "aromantic"). There seems to be no mention of this, not on ] either. This page only mentions sex. ] (]) 10:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
	-----
			:Do you have sources that describe incest excluding sex? ꧁]꧂ 00:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

	I think there might be a wider meaning of incest than that given. Does anyone know how sociologists or anthropologists define it? The actual rules for how close is too close have varied and still do vary a lot from society to society. In some cases it applies only to blood relations, but often relatives by marriage or adoption also count.



	In some societies that are ordered with clans as subdivisions of the tribe, any sex within the clan is considered incest no matter if there is any known blood relationship or not. In some matriachal societies all men must move to another clan to marry. Maybe there are some patriachal societies where the women must move to marry, i'm not sure.



	Even within modern western society, their is disagreement of local laws over whether first cousins count as incest. (Christian churches usually now consider first cousins to be incest in line with Old Testament law, whatever the local law says. But this has varied in the past.)

	----

	Some biologist should add some numerical information about likelihood of birth defects after incest, say between brother and sister. Also some general information about why mixing is good would be useful. --AxelBoldt

	----

	At the level of brother and sister the probability of birth defects goes up noticeably, but not enormously if the gene pool is fairly healthy. Maybe it almost doubles. Some of the more common birth defects (hare lip etc) are probably not due to genetic causes. For first cousins, the increase is down in the noise. Inbreeding can have advantages (ask any plant or animal breeder), but breeding individuals who are not closely related also has advantages (again ask any plant or animal breeder). The best way to get a healthy population seems to involve a mixture of both.



	As to why, that is a very complicated thing that is not quite fully understood yet. It would take a very knowlegeble geneticist writing a very long article to explain even what we now know.



	I am not sure how this relates to incest for humans. A lot of people would not want to think about humans in these kind of terms, of deliberately breeding to improve the species. Also incest is not quite the same as inbreeding, since in most juristicions it includes various relationships without close blood relationship, and it also includes sexual relationships that do not produce children.

	----

	True, but that's just a result of confusion by priests and jurists. It's clear that the incest taboo is there because of genetic reasons.



	In Germany for instance, it is legal for a sister to have oral sex with her brother, but penetration is illegal. That makes eminent sense. But the article should explain why.

	-----

	Is it really clear that the taboo is for genetic reasons? The fact that most traditional versions of it are not very precise in preventing genetic trouble, should be a hint that other reasons should be considered. The genetic reasoning may well be a modern rationalisation for an old custom. It is unlikely that the ancients in the cultures where the taboo existed did the detailed and careful statistical analysis needed to show that inbreeding can increase short term genetic risk. They certainly did not have the theory needed to understand why.



	For the definition of incest found in some tribes, that no sex inside the clan is allowed, there is a much more obvious explanation. It is to improve the unity of the tribe by forcing the clans to remain friendly. For other versions of the taboo it is hard for me to imagine any rational reason based on evidence available to the people who first invented it.

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Real incest?

The article lists "Father–daughter and stepfather–stepdaughter sex is the most commonly reported form of adult–child incest" but stepfather–stepdaughter sex isn't considered real incest and only pseudo-incest in some cultures or under some religious codes. Biofase | stalk 22:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Maybe stepfather–stepdaughter sex isn't real incest, but it's very bad mojo. I'm in the USA, and here it would be almost universally condemned and considered incest and labeled incest. You can't control how people use words. I can't speak for other countries. Herostratus (talk) 19:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

This isn't about "bad mojo", whatever that is, but about what constitutes incest so it should stick to the definition. While such relationships were seen as impropriety in biblical Jewish times they are not incest. I also don't know which part of the USA you are from but it seems such kind of relationships regularly pop up there without much chagrin. Biofase | stalk 20:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Distant cousins

I have a 6th degree relative (second cousin). We share 2.6% of DNA. I could legally marry her in several EU countries. So, I don't understand the fuss about distant cousins: that isn't incest according to the laws of several EU countries. Why should we care if European nobles married their distant cousins centuries ago? The point: DNA similarity dilutes very quickly with each passing generation. Example: Romanian law prohibits incest, but marrying your second cousin isn't incest. Genetic similarity of relatives of the 9th degree (and higher) is negligible to all practical purposes. And that's what "distant cousins" means. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:50, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Are you referring to the start of the "From the Middle Ages onward" section? I did rewrite that to clarify. I assume that the deal is that if you're occasionally marrying first cousins, but when it's not a first cousin it's probably a second or third cousin or something like that, almost always, for generation after generation, you're going to get problems (e.g. Hapsburg Jaw).. The passage doesn't say that. It does imply it. I don't think anyone knows for sure how much this contributed to Hapsburg Jaw etc. Herostratus (talk) 05:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Culture

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2023 and 18 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MichelleEstrada55 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Alyssagarcia.422 (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Commonness of incest in ancient Greece

User:Yue and User:CycloneYoris, sibling incest was not common in ancient Greece and this is a typo. See for example this: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-hellenic-studies/article/abs/familiarity-breeds-incest-and-the-ptolemaic-dynasty/C60A3A24562133A347E54A8F5977D690 It discusses how sibling incest was viewed as morally abhorrent and was outside Greek tradition. That is why the marriages were controversial. I am fixing the typo again, as I don't think this should really be controversial. Happy to go to WP:DRN if it really is. 69.142.179.131 (talk) 15:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Can you please do the edit together with the proper references to the reliable sources, i.e. not only change a word but to make such a change that it be accompanying by the references, so the other editors could see that those claims are properly backed up? I mentioned it in the talk page of User_talk:69.142.179.131

Thank you! Maxim Masiutin (talk) 15:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Okay, sure.

69.142.179.131 (talk) 15:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for understanding! Sorry that I didn't mention it before, but when such changes are made without proper references, people may wrongly consider it vandalism, however, it may be indeed a good-faith edit. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 15:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I actually noticed that the reference I googled happened to be the one already in the article, cited in that very line. So now it is cited twice.

69.142.179.131 (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

You can give names to references in the "ref" tag and then use this tag multiple times only giving the name, without all other attributes. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 16:00, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I understand. I was just trying to fix a one word typo, based on the source that was already in that line of the article. Would you mind fixing it?

69.142.179.131 (talk) 16:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@69.142.179.131 I am not competent to determine whether it was a typo or intentional word, so I let other editors to decide on substance Maxim Masiutin (talk) 07:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Since this page is semi-protected, and you are not logged in with a user account in wikipedia, it will take time for your edit to be reviewed by editors, they may further decide on whether to accept or revert the change. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

hic thalamum invasit natae vetitosque hymenaeos

Terrible mistranslation. “This man invaded (encroached upon) the wedding-bed of his daughter, a forbidden marriage.” 203.164.227.115 (talk) 11:22, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The word incest doesn't specify that it is about sex

The word incest literally means "impure". There is no specific mention of sex in that word, unlike for example "inbreeding". I've seen news articles about mothers who married their own sons and fathers who married their own daughters. I don't think e.g. "inwedding" is a recognised word, but it is established that sexuality and loyalty (or "romance") are not always both present (e.g. asexual but not "aromantic"). There seems to be no mention of this, not on Child marriage either. This page only mentions sex. Wallby (talk) 10:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you have sources that describe incest excluding sex? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 00:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Possible copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Misplaced Pages cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Misplaced Pages takes copyright violations very seriously. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 07:10, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

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