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== Cross-project evidence ==
{{ombox |image=none |text= This page has been ]. {{#ifeq:yes|yes|For the final decision, click ]; the evidence can be found in the .}}
(cross-posting from RFAR talk; arbitrator feedback would be helpful) <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 18:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
}}

Would the Arbitration Committee consider evidence from a sister WMF site if that evidence establishes a pattern of policy abuse?

That's come up at the Scientology RFAR. So before anyone fetches diffs, block histories, etc. let's find out whether this type of material would help the case move forward or not. A few words now from the Arbs could save a lot of time for everyone, since it looks like the RFAR is moving toward acceptance and some editors are mentioning Wikinews. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 19:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
:The small part in the arbitration policy says:
::Evidence and brief arguments may be added to the case pages by disputants, interested third parties, and the Arbitrators themselves. Such evidence is usually only heard by the Committee if it has come from easily verifiable sources - primarily in the form of Misplaced Pages edits ("]"), log entries for ] or web server access, posts to the ], or '''other Wikimedia sources'''.
:That is sufficiently ambiguous to require a clarification for this case, in my opinion. ] (]) 02:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
::My $0.02 is that implies that Wikimedia sources are considered reliable when making a case related to misconduct on Misplaced Pages. I think it is a given that Misplaced Pages arbitration is a ''Misplaced Pages'' remedy; it is not the place of this panel to judge the behavior of Wikipedians on sister projects, those sister projects having their own analogous mechanisms. Therefore any material brought over from sister sites should not be intended to show "actionable" offenses on those sites or even to show a pattern of behavior cross-project but should be limited to supporting a specific allegation of misbehavior on this project. To do elsewise elevates this forum to "Wikimedia arbitration", which it clearly is not. --] (]) 13:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
:::I concur with Justallofthem on the scope in which behavior from other projects should be used as evidence here. --<font color="green">]</font>] 19:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Still curious what any of the arbs have to say. Is this sort of evidence worth presenting or not? <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 00:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

{{hat|Quoted directly from Jimbo Wales' ]}}
Hey Jimbo, quick question: Should diffs/bans/checkuser details from sister ] sites be treated as objective evidence in ArbCom cases on en.wiki? Specifically, can such evidence be used to support a disciplinary action on en.wiki? ]<font color="green">]</font>] 21:09, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

:I don't think there is any simple yes/no answer to that. Behavior in other places can be relevant evidence in ArbCom cases, but often is not. Certainly the idea that one can behave perfectly well here, while engaging in offsite attacks, etc., and the ArbCom can do nothing about it, just doesn't fly. But as well, the idea that a person could be arbitrarily sanctioned at wikipedia for behavior in another forum doesn't fly either. It's a judgment call.--] (]) 00:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
{{hab}}

:We're not going to investigate violations of other projects' policies, per se, but please feel free to present any evidence that you believe relates to conduct issues on en.wiki. ] <sup><small>(])</small></sup> 04:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

== Links to self-published anti-Scientology sites in Misplaced Pages ==
Here is a slightly more complete listing of private anti-Scientology sites, and the number of links to them in WP:

*] to ] (xenu.net)
*] to ]
* to holysmoke.org
* to ] (clambake.org)
*] to "whyaretheydead.net"
* to home.snafu.de/tilman/
* to xenu.directory.net
* to gerryarmstrong.org
* to truthaboutscientology.com
* to lisamcpherson.org
* to scientology-lies.com
* to spaink.net
* to suppressiveperson.org
* to fairgamed.org
* to xenutv.com

Total: 1398 links. Historically, use of such sites has often caused edit wars and bad blood: <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 03:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:Although the use of ] is equally concerning (and must be dealt with) as primary sources, it is important to note that the latter come from a single organization, where the links presented above are all individual entities. ]<font color="green">]</font>] 03:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
::We have several hundred articles on Scientology-related topics. Inclusion of an official site, where one exists, among each article's EL is standard practice. I don't quite see your point about the "individual entities" – all the above sites are very much alike, they link to each other, and are all by various otherwise unpublished individuals. But yes, where Scientology sites are quoted to source article content, that should usually be thrown out, unless a secondary source quotes the same content. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 03:36, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:::This is not a mere question of ''likeness of content''. What we have here is opinions represented by multiple websites operated by multiple individuals which have their own convictions and reasoning. It is most concerning that the ] mentioned (and literally hundreds more unmentioned) are owned and operated by a single legal organization. The practice of opening a disproportionate number of websites to represent their own opinion deceptively inflates the amount of perceived unbiased information on a subject. As an analogy, imagine that ] opened 30 or more websites which they used to promote their products, presenting them as an objective sources for information on said products. You may say that it is the same of the critical sites to link amongst one another, but at least it can be seen that they are operated by individuals, and not a corporation. ]<font color="green">]</font>] 04:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

*These are our current external links for ]: . Apart from the official Scientology site, they're all clearly inappropriate as per our copyright and reliable sourcing policies and guidelines. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 03:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

*However, without a clear and unambiguous arbcom remedy addressing this, I daresay it will be an endless and thankless task cleaning up the EL section and keeping it clean. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 03:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Spidern, the self-published sources clause of the reliable sources guideline specifically favors article subjects by allowing them to speak on their own behalf. Jayen466 may have identified a legitimate problem. Jayen, do you have information on how many of those links are used as inline citations v. how many in external links sections? And this averages out to how many links per article? I'm uncertain whether this matter falls within the scope of this arbitration because the Committee has traditionally been resistant to rule on content issues. Might be more of a matter for the community to discuss re: the external linking policy, but I suppose it can't hurt to query the arbs here. Regarding attempted ''inline citations'' to unreliable sources in articles, I'd be glad to help extract those myself. Normally I don't edit this subject, but have done quite a bit of bad-citation-extraction from music articles. That much should be uncontroversial and useful, but I'd defer to the consensus of more knowledgeable editors about the rest. Best regards, <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 04:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:I would like to point out that I am and always have been in favor of getting rid of the self-published sites Jayen466 lists, and I don't think anyone currently involved in this arbitration is in favor of keeping them. None of them are reliable sources, in my opinion, and much of the material cited to them is available in much better sources. But seriously, isn't sorting out reliability what ] is for? Does this really belong in arbitration if it hasn't even gone to that noticeboard yet? --<font color="green">]</font>] 05:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Following up: I've gone through the first 100 instances of xenu.net external links. It's cause for concern although not quite as alarming as I'd feared at first. The majority of these links appeared on talk pages and noticeboards rather than in articlespace, and in a few instances these were arguably legit self-published links (for the articles about the site and its founder). I've decided to include only articles where the site was used as an inline citation, as opposed to the external links section. Whether or not this would be an acceptable external link is a different discussion The 13 remaining pages included several high level articles. Would like to discuss this with other editors before proceeding. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 05:04, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
Suppose this needs to be said: removing the link is obvious enough, but what to do about the statement a link tries to support? Pin a fact tag onto it or remove? Mention what at talk? At 1950s pop song articles it's usually good enough to leave the statement in place unless it's obvious vandalism, and pin an unreferenced tag on the article if none of its citations were valid. This topic is controversial, so seeking recommendations. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 05:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:Whatever anyone comes up with, it's likely to piss someone else off. I'm of the opinion that fact tags should only stay briefly on any controversial statement, unless its one that's widely accepted as true. Anything else should come off the page. To avoid angering as many people as possible, perhaps a system of sandboxes for content lacking in good references to give people the opportunity to find those references? --<font color="green">]</font>] 05:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:That is an issue to which there is not always a clear answer; it depends very much on the situation. In every possible case when removing primary sources from Scientology-related articles, I attempted to preserve the original content being referenced should the proper citations appear. I believe this to be the most constructive way of doing things, considering that you are making use of the prose refined by editors before you. If content was too outrageous or irrelevant to keep on the article, I pasted the contents to talk pages in order to preserve all work, and in some cases removed the content altogether. The process of deciding upon what is likely to be sourced and what will not be is subjective, and a judgment call for whoever is making the edit. That being said, monitor the citations and if a sufficient time period passes and there is no sign that any citation can be found (and you can't find one yourself), ''then'' remove the statement. Just remember, however, that there is (except for all ] material, of course). ]<font color="green">]</font>] 05:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
::Well, it looks like this is a worthwhile undertaking. Anyone want to create a subpage for review of individual articles? I lack the background to tell what's reasonable or unreasonable in terms of content, but would gladly help stock a page with material for review. Should speed matters up a bit. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 06:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

===Google Scholar cite list===
] (]) 22:16, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
:Thank you. This confirmed xenu.net being an attack site. It makes no attempt to hide that it is run by a private individual whose purpose is to gather and spread anti-scientology arguments. His site is as bad as a citation source as any other private single-track minded website. Only when it comes to Scientology some special measure seems to be applied. ] (]) 22:53, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

===Comment===

Thanks for your help with this, Durova. Looking back through the edit histories, you can see how use of these sites, or particular statements sourced to them, has time and time again caused personal friction, edit wars and so forth. The examples I gave above are typical ( ). Usually, the anti-Scientologists have formed majorities and won these battles. More edit wars have been fought over the inclusion of anti-Scientologist sites than over the exclusion of Scientology sites.

I think if we could just address this issue, a lot of our work would already be done, and there would be a clear path ahead for how people could work together to make these articles better – researching published literature, rather than the readily-available websites. There needs to be a clear commitment from both sides to strive for the best sources, and a means to get newbies on board, who will come into these articles on a daily basis, eager to include the tidbit they have just read on Lermanet or Operation Clambake.

For an example of inappropriate use of primary sources/private websites in a main article, see . Almost all the second paragraph in this section is sourced to an affidavit on whyaretheydead.net. No evidence that this is mentioned in any secondary source, yet we have a whole paragraph based on it, in our main article on Scientology, and it's about ploughing a field (!). This paragraph has been there, without interruption, since autumn 2007. That, along with the external links presently given in the ] article, is clear evidence of (1) the existing balance of editor numbers (2) that we need to get the anti-Scientology majority on board. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 13:07, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It's true that arbcom has traditionally been reluctant to rule on content issues, but this is not about content, it is about the quality of external links and sourcing, which is governed by policies and guidelines. So I hope we can get something along those lines out of this process. Note that there are sites directly analogous to the anti-Scientology sites for other religions, such as http://www.prophetofdoom.net and http://www.islam-watch.org etc. for Islam. Those sites are not listed as EL in our featured article on ], or used as sources there, but they are listed as EL in our article ]. I think we should proceed in much the same manner here – create a proper article on ], which is currently just a redirect to ], and cover these sites there. There is enough secondary literature on them. As it is, Misplaced Pages is used almost as an extension of these sites, adopting their tone and content. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 13:37, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:So Jayen, how would you recommend we solve this? I don't know the subject well enough to tell when a particular statement sourced to an unreliable citation ought to stay or go when I remove the citation link. Perhaps the best thing is if I pore through this list identifying articles where these inline citations to unreliable sources occur, and write up a list for the editors who know this field to discuss? <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 19:28, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
::I'd like to have some backing from arbcom before we start on this, for example in the form of a finding of fact that numerous Scientology articles have inadequate sourcing that is not in line with our policies and guidelines. I have no desire to argue or edit-war with other editors about the suitability of self-published essays, primary sources, affidavits on holysmoke.org and whyaretheydead.net etc. For example, look at the sourcing in . Bet you if we take those out, someone will come along and say, Hey, that was sourced. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 19:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

==Misrepresented evidence==
This is a request to Justallofthem, concerning the evidence provided ]. If this is the wrong place to respond directly to evidence provided by other parties, I ask an admin to let me know.

Justallofthem, I just reviewed that edit, and not only was it appropriate (perhaps minus the restored redlink), but when the FA author showed up and expanded that text, he , not the version TaborG put in place. There is a valid discussion of improper primary sourcing on the talk page there as well, but that's it. This is downright absurd straw-grasping, and in this case, you're trying to render a good edit negative when taken out of context. Please stop, it's inappropriate, and frankly it's below you. Any admin who takes two seconds to go through the three diffs that follow and glance at the talk page discussion will be fully aware of the context. You may have valid arguments, but this isn't one of them. You really should strike it. --<font color="green">]</font>] 22:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:Hi. You need to take another peek at that. Originally, the bit did not tie Ron's Journal 67 to the Bill so the reference to RJ67 would seem as off-topic or OR. TaborG apparently listened to the tape or went to the transcript and made a good-faith revision that tied RJ67 to the article with cogent edit summary ''correct quote and concentration on bill'' (). He improved the article. Cirt reverted () back to the bad version that appears as OR. ChrisO, by far the writer of the article, came in next and tied RJ67 to the Bill. Now TaborG and ChrisO could prolly go back and forth as to how that bit should look and they could do that in good faith. Cirt's edit was ] and far from good faith. Trust me, I am just getting started on this theme. You will see more and better instances but I stand by this one too. --] (]) 00:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::And please be patient. I will not present anything on the Workshop page until I have laid out my evidence. Right now I have scant evidence but others can see where I am going if they want to help. --] (]) 00:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, I look forward to the rest of your evidence then, but I hope you'll include more context in the future, because this one is very weak. Frankly, if TaborG went and listened to the tape himself, that's also OR, and it is quite correct to revert an OR addition back to a version that made FA. That the FA version also contains OR is a good topic of discussion, but not a good reason to go after Cirt. --<font color="green">]</font>] 00:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Cough ... so if someone goes to the library (or the internet) and reads a book and makes an edit based on what he read then that is OR? The RJ67 tape is published material ... or was, don't know if you can still buy one but that does not matter. The whole point is that Cirt will not allow improvement of an article unless he approves of the editor - he is the gatekeeper and that just ain't right. --] (]) 01:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::Not at all. If I go to the library, check out a ] like a newspaper or book, and report its contents to Misplaced Pages, I am not engaging in original research. I am reporting the research of others. If I track down some old, long-unpublished audio recording originally produced by a primary source, and then report the contents of that otherwise unverifiable, primary source to Misplaced Pages, I am not relying on the research of others, I am doing my own research. Thus, OR. --<font color="green">]</font>] 03:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
(left) You are right in that that article is very much a bit of original research. It interesting and worthy of note that it passed featured review. Food for thought. As far as our topic, if we take it as given that the RJ67 tape is in the article anyway (as OR), for TaborG to connect it to the subject of the article was a good-faith improvement. --] (]) 04:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:Just a reminder here that two users who disagree over language like that can both be making good faith improvements. In this case, Cirt actually had the stronger argument, his argument was then bolstered by other editors, and TaborG didn't contest the changes. Now frankly, on the talk page, I think TaborG is correct and ChrisO mistaken on whether that section is a valid use of ] sources, but that's a different topic. --<font color="green">]</font>] 20:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
::I have since added numerous examples in my evidence section on OWN showing Cirt's habitual behavior. There are many more egregious instances. --] (]) 03:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

==Previous related discussions==
*]
*]
There have been quite a lot of others over the years, particularly one involving book links. I believe that some of the people involved here (under one name or another) were involved in these, so I'm surprised that they haven't mentioned them. ] (]) 14:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

*Thanks. I hadn't known that {{user|ChrisO}} to ]. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 15:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
:You'd want to qualify ''exactly'' how he has contributed to Operation Clambake and if he presently does before trying to use it as a stick against him. (I assume you'd be going for WP:COI as a tactic?) A lot of material on Operation Clambake was swept up from different places and archives on previous sites. (It's not so much the first archive as The Site Who Lived.) ] (]) 15:50, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
::AC, has Operation Clambake ever actually gone to ] to be vetted as a reliable source? A banned user named Terryeo makes references to it in one of the links you have above, but didn't link it directly, and I can't find it in the archives. If RS/N has ruled on Clambake (for or against or whatever), that's something that we should all be interested in looking up. If it hasn't, would anyone mind if, as an adjunct to this ArbCom, I brought up sites like Clambake at the noticeboard now? It would be nice to get some solid guidelines on whether they're usable and under what circumstances. --<font color="green">]</font>] 16:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
::::There have been so many, I forget and don't have time to look for them right now. Obviously material from xenu.net itself wouldn't be RS, just like the personal pages of Introvigne on cesnur.org. The grey area has always been otherwise WP:V WP:RS material archived from somewhere else. ] (]) 19:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Durova and Cirt have begun to take those links out. It is probably best that they do it; anyone else would be reverted. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 16:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Ummm... That assumes that they will continue to do it, and no, I have reverted Cirt on at least one occasion when he removed a book link with a boilerplate summary description of "not needed for WP:V." That could be said of ''any'' reference link, but there's a reason that Misplaced Pages doesn't flip the switch to turn off all links to other sites. As well, no effort was made to replace those links with ones to less objectionable sites, as was agreed to in the past. ] (]) 19:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
::AC, I hadn't actually intended to use his participation there as a stick at all. But it is still noteworthy that a number of editors have significant commitments to anti-Scientology work, and the anti-Scientology community, outside of Misplaced Pages. Being an anti-Scientologist is not soooo different from being a Scientologist. In the , {{user|Geni}} provided a link to the enturbulation forum (an anti-Scientology forum), where forum participants were discussing the creation and/or possible deletion of that Misplaced Pages article. Terryeo said, in the discussion you linked above, that ChrisO had written 134 essays on Operation Clambake. If true (I'll check in a minute), that is more than an afternoon's work. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 16:19, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

*Operation Clambake has plenty of material on Misplaced Pages's Scientology effort, too, offering editors here for a job well done: <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 16:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
:Ah, but you have to ''join'' Scientology, whereas you become an "anti-scientologist" the moment that you disagree with the Church official line, especially if you provide documentation. Any site that gathers an archive will soon be labeled as an anti-scientologist, anti-cult, attack site or counter-cult site. That's a no-win situation.

:I've reverted my share of unsourced additions by people from places like the late enturbulation, pointed them to the Five Pillars, tried to explain why Misplaced Pages articles must be NPOV and sourced. I don't even edit the Anonymous articles (except at the start when it wasn't notable and the sources were fluff) due to the effort to be NPOV. I've also created a cite link library to avoid the copyvio and RS problems (like alterations) of "courtesy" news article copies. ] (]) 19:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

::::All I need to do is go to a Church, take part in a TR-0 routine and perhaps do some auditing and bingo, I am no longer a human being, but am now "a Scientologist". Is that what you mean by joining? As for being an anti-Scientologist, there's plenty of people who disagree with some organisation's "official line", yet do not become anti-communists, anti-capitalists, anti-Islamists, anti-religionists or what have you. There are plenty of people who leave Scientology and leave as Scientologists in good standing. I generally respect your editing. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 01:45, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually I haven't been taking links out, just documenting where they are. And Cirt has limited his removals to contributory copyright infringement, although it turns out he might have been a little overzealous because some of those were legal hostings. We're not trying to determine which of those sites are reliable and which aren't; that's probably better left for the reliable sources noticeboard. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 19:52, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

== To the clerk ==

<s>Can you please instruct Will BeBack to post his evidence and rebuttals in his section rather than thread them in my section? ] <small>]</small> 23:56, 20 December 2008 (UTC)</s>
:I've moved it below. Sorry of placing it in the wrong section. It's not evidence, it's a discussion of the case. ]] ] 00:02, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

==Regarding new evidence by Cirt and Jossi==
In order to reduce clutter on the evidence page, suggest working out back-and-forth matters here. The workshop page is for formal motions.

As for any potential chilling effect upon arbitration enforcement, it would seem to be a healthy thing if administrators who had long histories of formal dispute resolution with particular individuals either refrained from weighing in on the individuals they had been in conflict with, or else made disclosures.

Regarding the scope of the case, it was Jossi who expanded discussion to cover all new religious movements with his workshop proposals. Jossi also sought to expand it to cover Cirt's prior accounts. Having been the one to open those doors, Jossi can hardly object to other people going through them. It is the arbitrators (not Jossi) who ultimately determine the scope.

If they determine that Jossi has misused site processes in attempts to gain the upper hand against people who disagree with him, then Cirt's documentation of the NPA edits and the warning on Rick Ross would be relevant. And if the arbitrators determine otherwise, then little harm is done by the short addition to Cirt's evidence.

Respectfully suggesting that if there ''is'' merit to that line of reasoning, it would serve Jossi better to acknowledge it and become more circumspect about such matters. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 00:00, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

:(ec) Thank you for the advise, Durova, but I think it serves the project rather badly. ArbCom cases are to be focused on the issue at hand, and not suddenly becoming a free-for-all zone. Surely, the arbCom will look at the evidence presented and make their call about their relevance or not, but IMO, using these pages as Will and Cirt have done in this regard simply stinks, sorry. And btw, you need to take some blame for dragging me into this case :) ] <small>]</small> 00:06, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

:In the case of the evidence I added, it is relevant because Jossi is claiming that the BLP policy has been violated due to misuse of sources even though he has disagreed with himself over what those standards really are. As for the evidence concerning ] and ], those disputes are closely connected to this case because Ross is a prominent critic of Scientology as well as Osho and Prem Rawat. Both Jayen and Jossi have been involved in working on the biographies of individuals connected to new religious movements as well as the biographies of commentators, scholars, and critics of NRMs. The issue of changing a policy while in a dispute is likewise important as it affects Jossi's editing of those biographies. ]] ] 00:02, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

::Jossi, if you see an ethical problem with Will's actions and Cirt's, do you perhaps also see a problem with trying to use formal workshop proposals to get a featured content contributor topic banned from a subject where you've been in formal DR with him ten times? Without disclosing that history of conflict? <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 00:08, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
::: Uh? Workshop pages are designed to offer options to the ArbCom, don't they? They look at the evidence and at the proposals and make a determination about their usefulness or lack thereof. As for my "history" with Cirt, that is common knowledge and the arbs are aware of it. So what is the big deal about a "disclosure" in this case? And if that is needed, why not make it compulsory for all parties? ] <small>]</small> 00:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
::: Also, this is not about "ethics" it is about the focus of a case. ] <small>]</small> 00:16, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Actually it isn't common knowledge. I had no knowledge of it all those months you were emailing me, and it wasn't until after this case opened that I discovered the scope of the problem: ''ten'' formal dispute resolution attempts. The onus is upon you in such situations to disclose such things when you interact in an administrative capacity. It isn't tenable for you to expand that the scope of this case extends to all new religious movements with respect to Cirt, while denying that scope extends to yourself. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 00:40, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

:::::Come on guys, we have enough on our plate with Scientology. As for Rick Ross, he spent years trying to write his BLP himself (have a look at the IPs in WikiScanner), citing his own website, and now he is miffed because he can't do it no more. If someone has a financial and ideological COI, ''he'' most assuredly has. So let's keep Sarah Palin and all the rest of it out of this. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 01:02, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::Background on an editor's character is often and justly used for evidence in cases involving them. If Jossi is , it ''could'' be seen to call into question his calling out Cirt, is all. <font color="0D670D" face="Georgia, Helvetica">]</font> (<font color="#156917">]</font>)(<font color="#156917">]</font>) 01:09, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::::(e/c) This is not a playground or a sibling fight, it is an encyclopedia project. Edits are either in line with policy or they are not; if something is wrong with Jossi's work on Sarah Palin, please address those issues there. Cirt's edits don't become worse or better because of who collects the diffs.
:::::::Another thing: Cirt quoted a bit from Mr Ross's scurrilous attack on me and various scholars. As far as the scholars are concerned, there was a recent RS/N thread on that, it's . If people aren't happy with the sources I provided there, I suggest they please do some research on Melton and CESNUR. To be on the safe side, please do it in google books and on .edu websites, rather than Misplaced Pages. Lastly, let's remember one thing: What we have here are people who wish to – and do – cite their own websites, gossip mags, tabloids and personally selected primary sources in Misplaced Pages, shouting "Bias!" and claiming the encyclopedic high-ground against editors who cite books published by university presses and leading academic publishers. Sound odd? Sure does to me. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 01:24, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

:::::: Editing by editors with COIs is central to this case. Editors using Scientology equipment are editing Scientology articles. You point out Ross's COI, and Ross points out Jossi's COI. Then Jossi tries to make Ross's comment a violation of NPA, after the fact. According to Jossi's workshop postings, the scope of this article includes the editing of BLPs and of NRM-related topics. The Ross article certainly qualifies. ]] ] 01:22, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I think you guys are straying way off topic here. I certainly made sure that the evidence I collected related to Scientology. I don't accept that we have to discuss ], policy edits, Rick Ross, ], ] and ] here, and I personally have no intention of doing so until and unless arbcom tells us that this case is now called ]. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 01:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::I don't think this thread is going to go anywhere. The ArbCom rarely defines the scope of a case until they've closed it. Let's just lay out the relevant evidence and see what it amounts to. The ArbCom can figure this out for themselves. ]] ] 01:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::Well, I wish you'd stop dragging your ongoing struggle with Jossi over the ] articles into any discussion and venue that Jossi participates in. <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 01:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::Jayen, when Jossi posted workshop proposals to expand the remedies upon Cirt to all new religious movements Jossi opened that door. Two of the prior formal dispute resolution attempts between Cirt and Jossi were at a featured article Cirt wrote about Jossi's employer. If Jossi had disclosed the DR background himself that wouldn't have presented such a problem, but it became necessary for ''someone'' to articulate that a problem existed, particularly after Jossi's protestations that he was uninvolved. Will didn't open that can of worms. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 02:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::::Phew, at least we seem to be agreed then that Sarah Palin can stay outside the door, are we? And have a think about what you are proposing. An über-arbcom dealing with all WP articles on new religious movements, plus their associated scholars and critics? How many years should we budget for it? What kind of specific remedies would you hope to get from that? <font color="#0000FF">]</font>''<font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>'' 02:18, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)I'm not proposing that; Jossi did. And Jossi's own comments with regard to Cirt's understanding of BLP invited scrutiny of Jossi's understanding of the same policy. We should all expect to be scrutinized according to the same scope and standards we apply to others. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 02:28, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

::If editors are claiming that poor sources are a problem but have used equally poor sources themselves then that should be addressed. Back in April 2007, an editor added a blog and an open wikis as sources for a BLP and linked to Youtube. Now, the same editor is saying that an editor is at fault for making similar edits. We can let the ArbCom decide how relevant that is. ]] ] 02:43, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The arbcom is composed of intelligent people that will see through these silly attempt to hijack this arbcom case. The case is about, ahem, "Scientology" and editors that have edited these article and that does not include me. So please, spare us the wikilawyering and get on with proving evidence that is pertinent and useful. ] <small>]</small> 04:05, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
:Thank you, Jossi. I agree with your estimate of ArbCom's intelligence. With that avowal, do you also intend to withdraw your workshop proposals that expand the scope of this case to BLP and all new religious movements? <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 04:21, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
:: You can have the last word, Durova. I am outta here. Next time don't drag me into arbcom cases, just because I made a comment at WP:AE. ] <small>]</small> 04:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

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