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He was definitely Polish by allegiance (in terms of the politics of the time). In 1512, when he was Canon of the Chapter of Frombork, Copernicus swore allegiance to King ] of Poland. In 1520, after the outbreak of war between Poland and the Teutonic Knights, Copernicus was a member of the Polish embassy to the Grand Master requesting restoration of Braniewo to Poland. He also organized the defence of Olsztyn against the Order. |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Copernicus, Nicolaus|1= |
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{{WikiProject Astronomy|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|core=yes|s&a-work-group=yes|s&a-priority=Top|a&e-work-group=yes|a&e-priority=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Top|lutheranism=yes|lutheranism-importance=Low|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Low|anglicanism=yes|anglicanism-importance=Mid|saints=yes|saints-importance=Mid}} |
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I question this ] |
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{{WikiProject Economics|importance=low}} |
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{{WikiProject Former countries|Prussia=yes}} |
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:Why? He lived in Poland (In part of Poland called Prussia, just like others where called Great Poland, Mazovia, Little Poland- if you will see map from that period, you will see map of Masovia, and no Polonia around). He was loyal to Polish state. His language - heh! in XVIII century one of most popular Polish Patriotic songs was in German, and was written by Danziger!] |
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{{WikiProject History of Science|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Philosophy|importance=Mid|philosopher=yes|medieval=yes|science=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Physics|importance=High|bio=yes|hist=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Poland|importance = Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Religion|importance=Top}} |
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I have walked many years on this planet and ] was always one of the guys to admire. It is nice to know that a guy from ] (he was born in Polish Torun, studied in Polish Cracow, and died in Polish Frombork) wrote a book that started serious science not long after ] made publishing possible. The news that he might be a ] hit me as much as if a German was to learn today that ] was Polish! I have never seen such a claim and never thought about the language he mights speak at home, although all my knowledge indicates it must have been Polish. As for his writings, no wonder it was in Latin (] of his day, esp. in science). He had also extensive German contacts. Note that only around ]'s death, first literary works in Polish were published. ] (esp. in writing) was still a toddler in the 16th century. -- ] from ] |
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* ] |
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* ] |
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* ] |
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* ] |
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* Copernicus is generally regarded as Polish, and in terms of the political geography of his time, this is undoubtedly correct. Torun, his place of birth, had passed from the suzerainty of the Order of Teutonic Knights to that of the King of Poland shortly after his father's arrival there from Krakow. However, ethnically both his mother and father were most likely of German origin. The family name can be traced to the town of Koppernigk near Neisse in Silesia, which was inhabited by Germans in the 14th century at the time of immigration from that region eastwards into Poland. No known letter written by him was in ] - they were all in ] or ] - but native languages weren't widely used in writing at that time. |
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* ] |
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* He was definitely Polish by allegiance (in terms of the feudal politics of the time). In 1512, Copernicus as Canon of the Chapter of Frombork swore allegiance to King Sigismundus I of Poland. In 1520, after the outbreak of war with the Teutonic Knights, Copernicus was a member of the Polish embassy to the Grand Master requesting restoration of Braniewo to Poland. He also organized the defence of Olsztyn against the Order. |
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* But in any case, modern concepts of nationalism did not exist in his era, so the question is really an anachronism. |
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At that time many city dwellers in Poland was non-Polish ethnically and spoke German at home. Polish-or-German is ethnic, not |
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national question, as there was no nationality at that time. Copernicus was most probably of German origins, his name is |
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German and there isn't any prove that he even spoke Polish. That looks like a German living in Poland. |
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-- ] |
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I think that, if his allegiance was to Poland, he must be |
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considered polish. |
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For example, Einstein is usually cited as an American physicist |
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of german origin, so Copernicus would be a Pole of German origin. |
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Just my non-expert opinion. --AstroNomer |
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== 1497:Canon of Frauenburg == |
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The current WP article refers of his son Andreas in the role of Augustianin canon of the Cathedral of Frauenburg. But the same charge took to Nicolaus, in 1497, when he was in Italy yet (source: Holmes Charles Nevers, Popular Astronomy, Vol. 24, , in ]). |
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The same information is also provided by {{cite journal|first1=David Eugene|last1=Smith|author-link1=David Eugene Smith|url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927718/?page=5|title=Medicine and Mathematics in the Sixteenth Century|PMC=7927718|PMID= 33943138|journal=Ann Med Hist.|date=July 1, 1917|volume= 1|issue=2|pages=125–140|format=PDF|OCLC=12650954|access-date=July 15, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210515201754/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927718/pdf/annmedhist148575-0021.pdf|archive-date=May 15, 2021|url-status=live}} (here cited p. 129). This book dates back to 1917 and is also an alternative source about the Copernicus' masters of mathematics and astronomy: Peuerbach, Regiomontanus, Domenico Maria, and Brudzewski. All of them are actually sourced by a unique monography (Dobrzycki and Hajdukiewicz (1969)). Regards, Theologian81sp |
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Here Einstein is usually cided as a Jewish physicis and Columbus as Italian, not Spanish, sailor. |
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In medieval times country wasn't that important. In feudalism, countries and pseudo-countries went up and down all the time. |
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The only thing that could be reliably traced is ethnicity. |
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----- |
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Actually, medieval ethnicity is a problem. In the Early Middle Ages (my end of the field) one of the real research growth areas is ethnicity-building. For instance, it is now quite clear that all those Germanic tribes (Ostro- and Visigoths, Lombards, Vandals, Heruli, Franks, etc., etc.) were very fluid concepts. We always knew that the Heruli had sort of dissolved into the Ostrogoths, but now it's clear that the Burgundians and the Bavarii were entirely composite groups - and the Bavarii Dukes were all Franks. Ethnicity is no clearer in the Middle Ages than it is today. Allegiance was clear - if someone changes allegiance, they have to swear a new and public oath. The *reasons* for that allegiance may or may not be 'volk'ish. |
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--MichaelTinkler |
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I am amazed to find that there is actually a discussion going on and it is not just blindly |
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copied what almost all the modern historians for the last 50 years have been echoing. |
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For Nicolaus Copernicus read http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04352b.htm -Cath. Encyl. not always right, but much better than most books ( because written before WW I ). |
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Nicolaus never signed his name starting with - M -which he would have done if he was Polish, then he would have had the name or signed it M - Mikolaj . |
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He never spoke or wrote any word of Polish . He did write Latin and Greek . The official language in Prussia , where he was born, was Low German Hanseatic Platt . He was born in a Hanseatic city , that means only German language people were citizen of the city. Thorn or in Latin Thorunensis was in Culmerland ,Kulmerland . This was and is Old Prussi land . The people in the country and villages spoke old Prussian, see wikipedia Baltic, Prussian Language . His uncle , Lucas Watzenrode or Watzelrode was bishop of Ermland , that meant governor. |
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see the Catholic encyclopedia www.newadvent above for Ermland, independend bishopric, Culm , |
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Silesia etc. |
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The allegiences were Feudal laws, pledges to an individual, and from him again to the next higher individual. |
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The only correct answer is , Copernicus was born in Thorn or Latin Thorun , Prussia ( Culmer Land ,later Kulmerland if you want to be more specific) and he lived and died in Frauenburg ,Prussia and Heilsberg , Prussia. |
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For church records from Thorn, Heilsberg,Braunsberg, Frauenburg see http://www.familysearch.com go to records-to places, type in the towm , then click on church record . You will find films taken |
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by LDS of the original Kirchenbuecher- churchbooks. |
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Did the Elector or the Duke of Prussia of the Hohenzollern elector family of the Holy Roman Empire become Polish, because he gave an allegiance to an uncle (Sigismund I ), his mothers brother. ? Did the Polish dukes or kings become German , when they pledged allegiances to the German emperors ? |
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The people of Thorn did not become Polish , when again under the Feudal law they refused to pledge allegiance to the Teutonic Knights. |
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There was no state nationality , there was only citizenship. This meant if you wanted to live and work in a city and wanted to become a citizen you applied to the city council , which was the sole responsible government of a Hanseatic city. Then you became a citizen of that city , not of the city next door. |
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To Michael Tinkler , boy am I glad I am not writing this one . |
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H. Jonat |
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---------------------- |
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Is there a page in Misplaced Pages regarding ethnicity and nationalism in the 1400s-1500s? If so, could someone share that link? If not, some of the above might make for an interesting discussion. It appears to deserve attention as a topic. I don't feel competent to construct it, however (guess that makes me a Wikiwimp). --] |
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:of possibly German origins |
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Why "possibly" ? Is there anything that suggests otherwise ? --] |
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::Hi ] -- yes, there are arguments to the contrary -- read the above discussion. One regular contributor claims that Copernicus was German, the majority say Polish, but that his ethnicity may have been German...] |
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Took this from main page, where Helga Jonat placed it. Looks like it says it's a map of Poland to me... ] |
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---------- |
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Poland is to the south-west of Prussia , open the map |
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for a look at the land of Prussia or Preussen where Copernicus was born : |
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------------------------------------------- |
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For a smaller version of the Prussia map: |
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] |
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== A monumental scandal == |
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large detailed prussia map |
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An enormous bulk of evidence about Copernicus having been ethnically German and of Polonising German topography has been "archived". The present article carefully avoids the terms German or Polish for the ethnicity of the man because the evidence is clear that he was German - with a German father and a German mother, who will have taught him the German and not the Polish language. And the article Polonises all place names in Prussia that got Polish names only in the 20th century, but misses out on Danzig. - A monumental scandal and a disgusting disgrace. ] (]) 23:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:True, but both sides have valid arguments, it's best to leave nationality out of this ] (]) 19:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::No they don't it's not even a discussion. He was quite obviously ethnically German but wikipedia is leftist political propaganda at it's finest. This site truly has become a disgrace. ] (]) 11:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I would say Misplaced Pages is Western-centered and racist towards Eastern and Central Europeans with figures such as Copernicus or Sklodowska-Curie being Westernized in articles (which itself on the main webpage with news and trivia mentions in 90% only West-related things and takes Western perspective. Ergo, it's not international but English/West-centered. |
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:::Now not mentioning Copernicus nationality because it's not relevant is fairly silly concerning the fact that somehow other figures of that time like let's say Durer or Caravaggio magically have some nationality. ] (]) 20:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:The current article represents a hard-earned consensus, after monumental disruption by editors who aggressively espoused competing assertions of nationality. Please don't start that again. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 19:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:We have been through this. Several times. There are definitive arguments for Copernicus being a loyal subject of the Polish crown in territory ultimately subject to the Polish king - which is a good definition of being Polish. There is the definitive argument of Copernicus subscribing to the German Natio in Bologna and his suriving works in German (and Latin). The rest is more or less speculation (some more, some less). We DO know that this debate runs over centuries now, and finding a consensus here took a decade or two. Just accept him to be in the heritage of both nations, at best a connecting rather then a dividing aspect of history. ] (]) 06:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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::He was Half-Polish by birth, German in name, but he lived in Poland, it half because Lived in Poland+Half polsh= Half Polish, and German in name+Half German=Half German ] (]) 09:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:::NO. What's that even supposed to mean? By birth? He was born in a German family in a German build, German inhabited city. You people are insane. ] (]) 11:49, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::It is likely his father was a Germanized Pole, he also spent years in Polish cities and universities, such as ] in Krakow. ] (]) 11:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::The definition of leftist isn't anything you happen to disagree with. In fact, the view of Copernicus as Polish is popular with the Right in Eastern Europe. ] (]) 12:02, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::This is nonsense. His father Mikołaj Kopernik, after whom Copernicus got his name and surname, was a Pole from Kraków, his mother Barbara Watzenrode was a German from Toruń. Copernicus himself was born in Polish Prussia, spent his childhood there, then graduated from the Kraków Academy and later several other European universities, then returned to Poland and actively fought against the germanization of Prussia by the German Teutonic Order. He took part in the Polish-Teutonic War of 1519–1521 on the side of Poland. You can't make a full German out of him, no matter how much you want to, don't rewrite history. ] (]) 16:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::>"This is nonsense." |
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:::::Is it necessary to start your contribution this way? You could simply present your source. Especially when... |
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:::::>"His father Mikołaj Kopernik, after whom Copernicus got his name and surname, was a Pole from Kraków" |
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:::::... makes these sources obligatory. The problem is that there is no primary source that can confirm this, just speculation from various scholars, who often have their bias - unless I am mistaken and new evidence was unveiled. Coming from Krakow is no proof of cultural heritage with around 20% Germans there at that time. |
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:::::There is not much that we DO know for sure, and I already listed it. It is insufficient to decide one way or the other, and Misplaced Pages can but record it this way. |
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:::::Both Poland and Germany had multicultural states on their territory back around 1500, with cultural Poles living in Germany and cultural Germans in Poland - a status that creates many people in between and that continues one way or the other since today. If anything, Copernicus ambiguity in that regard embodies this bond. ] (]) 12:02, 28 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Neitzer Germany nor Poland had ever multicultural states on their territories. ] (]) 09:23, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::The HRE, the Empire, covered Frisians, French, Italian, Danish and many Slavian areas. There were also many German areas outside of it. |
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:::::::The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth included, beside Germans and Hungarians, a multitude of Slavic cultures from the Baltics through Ruthenia to the Black Sea. ] (]) 06:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:The Polonising of the names of German cities and regions that became occupied by Poles only in the 20th century is infantile, mad and disgusting. ] (]) 09:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::And this is not a forum for nationalist complaints. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 12:29, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::If in doubt, use the regulations of the Gdańsk (Danzig) Vote. See the intro of this article. ] (]) 06:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Silesian roots == |
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Hanseatic city of Thorn ,( Civitatis Thorun(ensis) in Latin ) is located in Prussia, Kulmerland Culmerland (Culmigeria on the map )to the bottom left of the map . This map is from circa 1600 (published 1660) . It is also available re-published by Royal Geographic Society as "Blaeu's The grand Atlas of the 17th Century World ( Barnes & Noble). |
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"His father was a merchant from Kraków (Krakau) and his mother was the daughter of a wealthy Toruń merchant.[13" |
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But: the father´s side of Upper Silesian and the mother´s side od Lower Silesian origin. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:11, 26 December 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br> |
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Why (Krakau)?] (]) 23:45, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Nicolaus Copernicus|answered=yes}} |
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In the "Commemoration" section of the article, in the subsection titled "Poland", in the second paragraph change the " in Poland's third largest city, Łódź." to " in Poland's fourth largest city, Łódź." |
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In the article the city of Łódź is called Poland's third largest city. In the data provided in the (data from 20th July 2023), the population of Łódź city has dropped and currently city of Wrocław has surpassed Łódź in the number of population. ] (]) 10:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC) |
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1570 maps showing Prussia can be seen on: |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> This is also verified and cited on the ] page. ] (]) 18:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Nicolaus Copernicus|answered=yes}} |
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T # 70 Pomerania, Marca, Prussia |
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in the Work section, "till" is used in "(or perhaps till his uncle's death on 29 March 1512)" and i believe this should be changed to until ] (]) 16:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 17:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-protected status? == |
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T # 71 Prussia |
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I propose that this article be given extended-protected status. It is experiencing an onslaught of neo-nazis. ] (]) 17:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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T # 72 Livonia |
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== Successors == |
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T # 98 Index A-Z of the World- Atlas , but no Polonia ??? |
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The article's "]" section states that "Scholars hold that sixty years after the publication of ''The Revolutions'' there were only around 15 astronomers espousing Copernicanism in all of Europe..." |
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That implies that all the 15 listed would have survived to the year 1603. |
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At least two of them died before then: ] (1550) and ] (1574). |
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(Have available maps of 1493 , 1539 and 1547 showing Prussia or Preussen , but not on internet. H. Jonat |
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] (]) 04:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Nationality == |
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Should we assume Copernicus' nationality can be ]? ] (]) 23:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Do you have NEW evidence that goes beyond those that have been debated here for a decade or two? |
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:If not, leave it as it is. |
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:See my above comment that starts with "We have been through this". ] (]) 22:40, 12 December 2024 (UTC) |
The current WP article refers of his son Andreas in the role of Augustianin canon of the Cathedral of Frauenburg. But the same charge took to Nicolaus, in 1497, when he was in Italy yet (source: Holmes Charles Nevers, Popular Astronomy, Vol. 24, p. 219, in SAO/NASA Astrophysics Data System (ADS)).
An enormous bulk of evidence about Copernicus having been ethnically German and of Polonising German topography has been "archived". The present article carefully avoids the terms German or Polish for the ethnicity of the man because the evidence is clear that he was German - with a German father and a German mother, who will have taught him the German and not the Polish language. And the article Polonises all place names in Prussia that got Polish names only in the 20th century, but misses out on Danzig. - A monumental scandal and a disgusting disgrace. 2001:9E8:25F:FD00:E9AB:E4CF:D944:B901 (talk) 23:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
In the "Commemoration" section of the article, in the subsection titled "Poland", in the second paragraph change the " in Poland's third largest city, Łódź." to " in Poland's fourth largest city, Łódź."
In the article the city of Łódź is called Poland's third largest city. In the data provided in the Polish Misplaced Pages (data from 20th July 2023), the population of Łódź city has dropped and currently city of Wrocław has surpassed Łódź in the number of population. BlueBlack22 (talk) 10:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
in the Work section, "till" is used in "(or perhaps till his uncle's death on 29 March 1512)" and i believe this should be changed to until Maddybac (talk) 16:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
I propose that this article be given extended-protected status. It is experiencing an onslaught of neo-nazis. Meellk (talk) 17:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
That implies that all the 15 listed would have survived to the year 1603.
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Done This is also verified and cited on the Łódź page. Jamedeus (talk) 18:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)