| Revision as of 05:12, 24 February 2009 edit137.111.47.29 (talk) →naturalism← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 22:50, 4 March 2024 edit undoDreamy Jazz Bot (talk | contribs)Bots106,824 editsm Replacing Template:Ds/talk notice with Template:Contentious topics/talk notice. BRFA. |
| (91 intermediate revisions by 47 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
|
{{Contentious topics/talk notice|ps|long}}{{talk header}} |
|
{{ChristianityWikiProject|class=B|importance=Low}} |
|
|
|
{{ArbComPseudoscience}} |
|
{{WikiProject intelligent design|class=B|importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|class=B|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Creationism|Intelligent design=yes|Intelligent design-importance=High|importance=}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Conservatism|importance=Mid}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=Mid}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|
|maxarchivesize = 200K |
|
|
|counter = 8 |
|
|
|minthreadsleft = 2 |
|
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|
|algo = old(60d) |
|
|
|archive = Talk:Teach the Controversy/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== this article should be deleted == |
|
{{Archive box| |
|
|
|
There is no controversy. Evolution is real. We should not pretend like it exists and therefore we should delete this article ] (]) 18:16, 9 June 2022 (UTC) |
|
] |
|
|
] |
|
|
] |
|
|
] |
|
|
] |
|
|
] |
|
|
] |
|
|
}}<!--Template:Archivebox--> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:This is not an article about evolution, it is an article about a political stratagem. ] (]) 18:51, 9 June 2022 (UTC) |
|
== Attribution == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Requested move 22 March 2023 == |
|
The Mooney and Dembski ref's in the intro do not actually say that IDM is trying to get ID taught in schools, and Nick Matzke's analysis is just his POV (not a "fact"). --] 17:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
|
|
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
|
|
|
|
|
|
The result of the move request was: '''Page moved''' back to ]. <small>(])</small> ] (]) 18:10, 29 March 2023 (UTC) |
|
:Which number footnotes are you objecting to exactly? ] 17:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
---- |
|
|
|
|
|
] → {{no redirect|teach the controversy}} – unnecessary parenthesis. ] redirects here. ] (]) 00:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC) |
|
In , #6 and #7. |
|
|
|
*'''Support alternate move''' to ], the original title before it was unilaterally moved without discussion. ] (]) 04:31, 22 March 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
*'''Move back to stable title ]''', per above. ] (]) 15:58, 22 March 2023 (UTC) |
|
By the way, the following quote by ] of ] specifically mentions the thing you said it "didn't support": |
|
|
|
*'''Support move to ]''' per above replies. <span style="border:1px solid;padding:2px 6px;font-variant:small-caps">'''〜 ] • ]'''</span> 16:26, 22 March 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
*'''Support''' per above. ] (]) 19:50, 23 March 2023 (UTC) |
|
*"I was not for removing or de-emphasizing the subject of Darwinian evolution from the science classroom. However, in my remarks '''I did object to the dogmatic approach to science instruction''' which is propagated by organizations such as NCSE, an approach characterized by an intolerance of varying viewpoints, where any alternative viewpoints are censored, and where conformity to a blind acceptance of Darwinian evolution is demanded." |
|
|
|
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> |
|
|
|
|
|
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div> |
|
So your ''rm source Ed added was not supportive/relevant of the passage'' edit summary doesn't make much sense. Don't you think you should make specific objections on talk '''before''' reverting another user's contributions? You seem to regard that as some sort of rule we all should follow. --] 18:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::So you think changing the goal of the Teach the Controversy campaign from "''intended to undermine the teaching of evolution while promoting intelligent design''" to simply parroting the pro-ID viewpoint and Discovery Institute party line that TTC is "''intended to counter a 'dogmatic approach' to classroom instruction about evolution''" based on one cite from an insignificant source? No. The original passage was supported by no less than 6 supporting cites covering a wide range of significant primary and secondary sources. Your change deleted half of the cites, leaving 3, 2 of which ran counter to your changes in overall tone and another which quotes a genuine nobody in the movement. And then you wonder why you get reverted? Amazing. |
|
|
|
|
|
::Larry Taylor and his Parents for Truth in Education hardly is a definitive speaker for the TTC group, they're a small-potatoes, local pro-ID outfit in Georgia. He clearly has a stake in making such a claim considering his group is concerned more about furthering its own agenda of getting ID into public school science classrooms than it is about actual science, so let's not over emphasize the significant of his op-ed piece, especially when it's to replace or run counter to such excellent sources as the AAAS's, the world's largest scientific professional organization, policy statement, the ruling in ], an article in the ], the statement from leading ID proponent William Dembski that "The clarion call of the intelligent design movement is to 'teach the controversy.' There is a very real controversy centering on how properly to account for biological complexity, and it is a scientific controversy." and a witness for the successful plaintiffs in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. Compared to the significance of the long-standing sources, Larry Taylor's "Open Letter to the NCSE" is insignificant and marginally relevant, he's not central to the TTC campaign. In fact, he's not even I minor player. Your edits were totally unsupported by this cite, as is your use of the NPOV tag. Please become better read on the topic before raising a big stink again here, a lot of frustration and disruption could be avoided if you simply better understood the subject and checked your personal ideology at the door when you login. ] 22:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Perhaps the problem is your view of "undermining the teaching of evolution". If you personally believe that the Theory of Evolution should be taught as the only possible scientific explanation for the emergence of new species (especially human beings), then YES any other idea would '''undermine''' this. |
|
|
|
|
|
In that case, you should quote some published source who says this: |
|
|
*Mr. X asserted that the TTC campaign will "undermine the teaching of evolution" by introducing non-material explanations to a topic that our group wants kept strictly on a materialistic basis. Science should and must only explore natural causes. Scientists must '''not''' use scientific techniques or reasoning to explore the non-material world. Not because we say it doesn't exist or that God doesn't exist, but because (his reason goes here). --] 15:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::Are you aware of any other '''''scientific''''' explanation? ] 00:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::The best source I can direct you to, which isn't quite what you mean, is the , which suggests the purpose is to undermine the credibility of science. Which might be POV in the some people consider science inappropriate for a science class, but pushing the limit of reasonability there. Looking forward to your reply, ] 15:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)/ |
|
|
|
|
|
:::Ikan, I couldn't get your link to work, so I skimmed another copy . The word "undermine" does not appear. |
|
|
|
|
|
:::They do, however, make it quite clear what they're up to. (This, by the way, is one reason I refuse to have anything to do with them. Listen closely, FM and both Joshuas.) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::*To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God. |
|
|
|
|
|
:::I don't see this as "undermining science" (as an institution) or undermining its credibility, but it does strike me as devotedly Creationist. I can't discern any difference between this and ], unless it's merely a non-] variant which accepts the ]. |
|
|
|
|
|
:::Perhaps a point of confusion is that they tie materialism to aspects of culture they dislike: |
|
|
:::*To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies. |
|
|
|
|
|
:::I daresay they are not disinterested seekers of truth, but primarily oppose materialism because of the support it provides (as they think) for social destruction. |
|
|
|
|
|
:::However, I think this article (and related ones in the ID series) should distinguish between: |
|
|
:::*the ideas themselves (claims about the reasonableness or scientific viability of ]) |
|
|
:::*the motives and goals of ID promoters |
|
|
|
|
|
:::ID asks people to consider non-materialist hypotheses; whereas the ] of modern sciences refuses to consider such hypotheses |
|
|
|
|
|
:::The IDM opposes materialism because they want to promote cultural and religious goals. --] 16:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::::Let's see, Ed, ''biology'' is considered a ''science'' class. DI and the Dembskiites want to introduce religious-based "theories" (I use that word '''''very''''' loosely) into science class. Thus, science moves from the rational to the irrational. How precisely is that ''not'' undermining science? |
|
|
:::::Second, are you in any way familiar with the establishment clause, Ed? Let me guess, you think Jefferson fucked up when pushed the idea, right? Well, whatever your opinion of it, it ''is'' the law of the land. Deal with it. ] 00:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::I wasn't quoting the wedge document. I was stating that it established a purpose for ID(it was the discovery institute's little thing) was to break society away from science(they call it scientific materialism, which is not more than saying that ethics are tied to science which is a different issue) The beleif was if they could manipulate how science was defined, they could defeat the current version's importance to society. This is sort of what you're saying, but the modern definition of science simply does not include untestable hypotheses. Untestable but rational hypotheses are the basis of modern philosophy, not sceince. And you might indicate that the definition of science is also questionable, but between modus tollens and repeatability, you have the basis of most textbook defintions of science. the reason non-materialistic hypotheses are not scientific is repeatability. If they are not part of the natural function of things, then there is no way to set up a situation to cause it to happen(we call this experimentation). This doesn't make anything incorrect or wrong, just not within the subset of science. my point got lost somewhere in there. And i'm probably not saying anything you don't know. I'll just try to summarize: it's "undermining science" because it tries to get non-science recognized specifically as science, thus change the defintion of science. ] 16:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::::"''However, I think this article (and related ones in the ID series) should distinguish between: the ideas themselves and the motives and goals of ID promoters''" Hmmm, that is exactly the POV of the Discovery Institute its movement have been promoting all along: (PDF) . Their viewpoint is already covered here, promoting it is advocating for one pov. ] 16:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Okay, in that case the article should say that: |
|
|
*ID supporters want their ideas and motives given independent consideration |
|
|
*ID opponents see the two as intertwined and insist that they be considered together |
|
|
|
|
|
Let's not advocate "for" any particular side, but describe what the opposing sides '''are'''. --] 18:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I've added the viewpoints of both sides, a sourced example, and the relevant legal ruling to the overview section, which is where the topic of specific objections, particularly religous, is first introduced: |
|
|
::Along with the objection that there is no scientific controversy to teach, another common objection is that the Teach the Controversy campaign and intelligent design arise out of a ] and ] movement that calls for broad social, academic and political changes. Intelligent design proponents believe their concepts and motives should be given independent consideration. Those critical of intelligent design see the two as intertwined and inseparable, citing the foundational documents of the movement such as the "]" and statements made by intelligent design constitutents to their supporters. The judge in the '']'' trial considered testimony and evidence from both sides when he ruled that "ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents<ref>], ], Case No. 04cv2688. December 20, 2005 </ref> and that "that ID is an interesting theological argument, but that it is not science."<ref>], ], Case No. 04cv2688. December 20, 2005</ref> |
|
|
|
|
|
::In the debate surrounding the linking of the motives of intelligent design proponents to their arguments, following the ] the chairman of the Kansas school board, Dr. Steve Abrams, cited in The New York Times as saying that though he's a creationist who believes that God created the universe 6,500 years ago, said he was able to keep the two separate:<blockquote>"In my personal faith, yes, I am a creationist," ... "But that doesn't have anything to do with science. I can separate them."</blockquote>Abrams agreed that:<blockquote>"my personal views of Scripture have no room in the science classroom." <ref> Ralph Blumenthal. The New York Times, August 1 2006.</ref></blockquote> Afterward, ], a Case Western Reserve University physicist and astronomer, in a New York Times essay said: <blockquote>"A key concern should not be whether Dr. Abrams's religious views have a place in the classroom, but rather how someone whose religious views require a denial of essentially all modern scientific knowledge can be chairman of a state school board. ... As we work to improve the abysmal state of science education in our public schools, we will continue to do battle with those who feel that knowledge is a threat to religious faith ... we should remember that the battle is not against faith, but against ignorance."<ref> Lawrence M. Krauss. The New York Times, August 15 2006.</ref></blockquote> |
|
|
This settles this objection. ] 20:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Background == |
|
|
|
|
|
Cut from beginning of article: |
|
|
|
|
|
:Intelligent design "holds that certain features of the ] and of living things are best explained by an ], not an undirected process such as ]."<ref>Discovery Institute, Center for Science and Culture. Questions about Intelligent Design: What is the theory of intelligent design? "''The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.'' "</ref> Both the ] (IDM) and the Teach the Controversy campaign are largely directed and funded by the Discovery Institute, a ] ]<ref>Patricia O’Connell Killen, a religion professor at Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma whose work centers around the regional religious identity of the Pacific Northwest, recently wrote that "religiously inspired think tanks such as the conservative evangelical Discovery Institute" are part of the "religious landscape" of that area. </ref> based in ], ], ]. The overall goal of the movement is to "defeat ] ]" represented by the theory of ] in favor of "a science consonant with ] and ] convictions".<ref>The '''''' (PDF file), a 1999 Discovery Institute fundraising pamphlet. Cited in Handley P. ''The Times of Oman'', 7 March 2005.</ref> |
|
|
|
|
|
All of nearly all of this is copied word for word from ]'s intro. --] 15:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Reword it then, don't just delete it outright. A defintion of ID is necessary in this article because Teach the Controversy is the product of the intelligent design proponents and has sought to introduce ID into public school science classes. Not every reader of this article is going to follow a link to the ID article, and without an understanding of what ID, they will not understand the viewpoints of science education community and the scientific community in opposing Teach the Controversy. Using your own phrase, your deletion seems like viewpoint suppression. ] 15:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::Yes, of course, I agree! I moved it here specifically to negotiate just such a rewording. That's why I didn't delete it but used the ] technique. |
|
|
|
|
|
::I'm open to any suggestions you have for rewording the moved text. --] 16:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
:::What's there to reword? It looks good to me. It's consistent with the other stuff we have to say about ID, which is good. --] 16:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::I agree with Cyde, there's no reason to reword it. Oh wait, let's try this: |
|
|
:::::Intelligent design: God did it; |
|
|
:::::Atheistic materialistic liberal Darwinism: You're pond scum. |
|
|
::::Does that accurately capture DI's view? ] 00:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== NPOV == |
|
|
|
|
|
Duncharris reverted twice to FM's "neutral" version. I don't know why his version is any more neutral than mine. Perhaps he'll explain here. --] 18:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:'''Comment''': I'm guessing its because ID proponents have made a lot of statements and published a lot of documents/articles about what they're doing and the purpose, including the wedge document, and you seem to want to take all that out of the article and leave the misleading statement that all they want to do is oppose "dogmatism". This is inaccurate. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::No, I don't want any of that taken out. If I have removed anything like that, it was a mistake. |
|
|
|
|
|
::I do want '''added''' to the article the proponents' statement that they want to oppose dogmatism. If this needs to be balanced with a statement from opponents that '''the statement of proponents is misleading''', then I'd L-O-V-E to see that put in. (Insert picture of dopy-looking St. Bernard with tongue hanging out and panting!) --] 18:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::What's the problem this time Ed? What statement, which sources are you proposing we use to show that they say this and where do you want it to go in the article?] 18:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
This one: |
|
|
|
|
|
Advocates of this campaign say they want to counter a "dogmatic approach" to classroom instruction about ]<ref>"I was not for removing or de-emphasizing the subject of Darwinian evolution from the science classroom. However, in my remarks I did object to the dogmatic approach to science instruction which is propagated by organizations such as NCSE, an approach characterized by an intolerance of varying viewpoints, where any alternative viewpoints are censored, and where conformity to a blind acceptance of Darwinian evolution is demanded." </ref> |
|
|
|
|
|
And right in the intro, where I had it before. --] 19:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:The problem here is that your source still doesn't support the passage for the same reasons given you before. As pointed out to you above, Taylor is merely a parent, a private citizen involved in a local county campaign; he is neither significant nor central to the ID/TTC movement. Taylor's statement cannot in any way be considered to be representative of the entire movement. You're going to have come up with a better supporting source than this: . Provide a better source from Meyer, Dembski or another leading proponent. ] 20:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I've taken down the NPOV tag; there's been no further evidence of actual issues presented since the 17th, and no effort to provide a proper source for the proposed content. ] 19:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:And I've put it right back up. The dispute is not resolved merely because you declare the matter settled. Moreover, I '''have''' made effort to provide a proper source, but it was reverted. |
|
|
|
|
|
:Strangely, my reverted addition was then used by JoshuaZ's as evidence of "POV pushing". I will add it again now. --] 16:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::You're the one making the assertions that the article is POV; the burden is yours to show that it is, something you've consistently failed to do here and elsewhere, which is what prompts people to allege you're misusing the NPOV tag and POV pushing, Ed. You've also failed to make the case here for your recent changes, so, I've rv'd them. Several looked pretty POV to me... ] 16:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::There is no requirement to "make the case" that an article is biased '''before''' putting up the tag. But there is a requirement not to remove it more than twice. I hope you'll abide by our community's agreed-upon guidelines and suggestions. |
|
|
|
|
|
:::I assume when you use "POV" as an adjective you mean biased. Can you tell me in what direction you feel my latest round of edits has "biased" the article. I wonder if you even had time to review them yet. --] 16:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::Yes, I have, and your edits today are largely the same as the ones you made last week , which were rejected by 4 different editors. |
|
|
:::::If you mean reverted without reason by 4 different editors, that's just what I'm talking about: you guys need to give reasons instead of just backing each other up. --] 19:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
::::So the same objections made last week, above, apply today. |
|
|
:::::No, they don't. No '''reasons''' were given for them. Additions to an article that you disagree with shouldn't just be reverted, but improved. |
|
|
::::Failing to make an effort to earnestly make a strong case for your changes, instead ignoring talk page discussion and repeatedly insisting on just reverting and edit warring to make your case is what landed you in hot water and does not make long-term contributors here more open to your opinions, Ed. ] 17:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::That's a good description of what you yourself have done. You have made '''no case at all''' for your reversions, let alone a strong one; you and 3 others simply banded together to enforce your preferences for no reason. --] 19:19, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Moreover, I have no opinion on this matter whatsoever. This is not an opinion board like Everything2, but an encyclopedia. We should be reporting the ideas of '''others''', supported by references, not giving our own opinions, Felonious. --] 19:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Views of both sides== |
|
|
|
|
|
This is my version. Please refer to this when disputing the neutrality of the article. --] 16:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
] --> avoid single sentence paragraphs. --] 17:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Note: The only one here disputing the neutrality of the article is Ed. Please make a case that the article is POV or the NPOV tag will have to come down. ] 17:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I'm not amazingly familiar with this article, but to help out Ed, that second sentence about the undermining thing is coming from sources who, well, for whatever reason are against the Discovery Institute and their kind of thing for some reason, it doesn't seem that the "undermined" part is well-attributed to the sources inside the sentence. ] 17:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::I think you're only reading the last two cites, 5 and 6. Cites number 3 and 4 both specifically support the part of passage you mention "The campaign is intended to undermine the teaching of evolution..." |
|
|
::Cite number 3, the American Association for the Advancement of Science's statement (PDF file) says specifically " by emphasizing so-called "flaws" in the theory of evolution or "disagreements" within the scientific community." That clearly supports "The campaign is intended to undermine the teaching of evolution..." |
|
|
::Cite number 4, the ruling in ] says "the disclaimer singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere." This also clearly supports "The campaign is intended to undermine the teaching of evolution..." |
|
|
::Neither cite 3 nor 4, the AAAS and the ruling of the Dover trial, mention the Discovery Institute or are opposed to it in any meaningful way. ] 18:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::The AAAS cite supports my version, which says that some TTC opponents regard the campaign as "intended to undermine the teaching of evolution". Unless someone considers it OR to go from: |
|
|
:::*Some bills seek to discredit evolution; to, |
|
|
:::*The campaign is intended to undermine the teaching of evolution |
|
|
:::But if there are no objections on that account, I move that we go ahead and restore my version (or the part that says this). |
|
|
|
|
|
:::How about this wording: |
|
|
:::*Some opponents of the campaign, like the AAAS, say that proponents clearly intend to undermine the teaching of evolution in public schools. |
|
|
:::The ref can be the American Association for the Advancement of Science's statement (PDF file). Fair enough? --] 19:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::I definitely object. Ed, you're once again ignoring half the evidence - the ruling of the Dover trial who's cite already supports the passage in the article. |
|
|
::::Your suggested wording here would imply that that Dover trial judge is "some opponent of the campaign." The ruling of the Dover trial that TTC ''is'' a campaign intended to undermine the teaching of evolution means that presenting it as just opposed by "some opponents" violates the undue weight clause of WP:NPOV. This is exactly the sort of willful attempt to spin or weaken the scientific community's viewpoint that has has earned you your RFAr. |
|
|
::::The passage is accurate and extremely well-supported as it is if anyone bothers to read the cites. "''The American Association for the Advancement of Science say that proponents seek to undermine the teaching of evolution in public schools while promoting intelligent design, a view that was confirmed by the ruling in the ] trial.''" would be accurate as well while being supported by cites 3, 4, 5, and 6. ] 19:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I agree with this version. Will you put it in, or shall I? --] 20:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Huh? The version as it was before you mucked about with it was fine (which, I think, was FM's point). What version are you agreeing with? Certainly not yours I hope. ] 21:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::Wouldn't it be better in FM's version for the court thing to say "view that was supported", because in this day and age, since when does a single court case confirm, well, anything? ] 01:30, 23 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::That court case confirms and supports a long history of separation of church and state. ] 08:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::Well there's a bit of difference between "support" and "confirm". I mean think about it, if a court case "confirms" a history, that pretty much means all history departments everywhere are wastes of space, since law type professions could just "confirm" history in decisions to make it so, and I just don't see how that possibly works out right. ] 23:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Who is it? == |
|
|
|
|
|
Okay, not to be a POV, but who's "winning?" Who has the upper hand? Just a question, a simple NPOV answer will be fine. I think that we need to at least mention who is gaining the upper hand currently. Upper hand is a fact, not a POV. Which one is right is a POV, but this is not. Thanks. --] 19:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
:It depends on whether you measure winning as who is currently "in the lead" or who is gaining more ground in relation to the other. ] 22:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::Both. I just want to know which side is more likely to win in the courts.--] 04:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::Oh, well, the evolution side has been winning before, and it doesn't appear that the Discover Institute has much chance to win anything now :/. As for who's gaining more ground in relation to the other, that depends on many factors that aren't so easy to verify, such as just how wide a net of influence each side has among the population. ] 13:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== See-also churn == |
|
|
|
|
|
There seem to be an awful lot of edits to the "See also" section going on, all of them (wrongly, I think) marked as "minor", and -- as it seems to me -- mostly driven not by consideration of what's relevant and what isn't but by a desire to make TtC look more or less respectable by adding or removing links like "Scientific revolution" (yay!) or "Junk science" (boo!). Could the parties concerned, namely ] and ], please either desist or justify their activities here? I'm about to revert the page to the state it was in before their edits. ] 13:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
==naturalism== |
|
|
This article refers sveral times to "naturalism", but does not seem to define it. There are several WP articles on naturalism, but none of them seem to be in the same sense as the use here, so linking to them wouldnt be a good way. It should either be defined prominently or a new article, say Naturalism(theology) be written. ''']''' 17:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::If nobody can give a definition, perhaps the section should be deleted. it would appear to be a relatively minor point in the overall strategy of teaching this subject--it relates more to the different creationist theories and should probably be discussed on a more appropriate page.''']''' 23:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Uh, no. Naturalism, per the ] has four distinct yet related definitions. As with any English word with multiple senses/definitions, it is up to the reader to determne the sense based on context -- id est, the reader must use standard reading comprehension skills as taught in school and as teated from grade-school through SAT/ACT testing. Of those, the following two definitions should meet your needs: 1. Ethics. Action arising from or based on natural instincts, without spiritual guidance; a system of morality or religion derived only from human reason and having no basis in revelation. 2. Philos. The idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world. Also: the idea that moral concepts can be analysed in terms of concepts applicable to natural phenomena. ] 22:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::No, Jim, it is up to the writer to make sure the reader gets the correct decision. it is really futile for a person to say that they wrote it clearly, and the other person is misreading. Effective writing means writing so that the reader can not misread. For example, which of the actually four quite different definitions you quote do you think is the appropriate one for the uses of this word here? Assuming the reader has a lesser education than oneself is a very poor tactic, even if true. ''']''' 06:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
It may be a poor tactic in general, but in this case it seems like it was an accurate appraisal of the situation. Nino] (]) 05:12, 24 February 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Hide the evidence campaign== |
|
|
|
|
|
It's a little off topic but but it looks like the next step in the ongoing creationist campaign against biology includes hiding fossil evidence. Seriously. I wonder if the creationists here in the US will adopt this new strategy? It's pretty dang funny and they're a bit more direct and open about their motives than their US counterparts . ] 21:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:Wouldn't surprise me. After all, the motto of the scared and clueless appears to be "when the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts". ] 22:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::I am interested in the Kenya material you found, but this is not the place for it. Have you a suggestion? The title "Hide the Fossils" seems rather POV, but if this is the title the movement is using and it can be shown from another source, we could use it. So what title do they use? Even if the title is POV, we must use the organizations or movement's name in an article about it. ''']''' 22:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Right Wing?== |
|
|
|
|
|
In the ''Shift in Stragtegy:'' section there is a sentence - 'All four topics are widely accepted by the majority of the scientific community as legitimate science and all four are areas of science where the right wing thinks science is wrong.' Seems to me that is equating Right Wing views with Conservative Christian views. |
|
|
|
|
|
Now, I'm not from the US and things are a wee bit different over here but I'm not certain that sort of argument can hold water. Surely there can be non Conservative Christian Right Wingers? I know I should be bold, but I didn't want to edit and this and dive headlong into a controversy. |
|
|
|
|
|
] 15:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Irrelevant == |
|
|
|
|
|
I believe Pat Robertson's comments following the Dover trial are irrelevant to this article. They are interesting, but the quote of one man judging people for who they voted for is either off-topic or pushing it. Full disclosure: I am a young-Earth Creationist. I am a conservative Christian. I am not right-wing. I do not agree with Pat Robertson and I think this comment hurt the general perception of my faith. |
|
|
|
|
|
] 04:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:If you could find and cite a ] that states '''your''' position - your response to Robertson's comments - I believe it would make a great addition to this article (or if not, to another related article). ] 13:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Attacking?== |
|
|
In an attempt to prevent an edit war, please use this talk page to discuss if the article should say "attacking" or not. ] 18:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:The edits in question are . ] 18:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::I would argue that "attacking" is correct, since insisting that the belief of the Christian conservatives in question has to be treated as equal to a scientific consensus qualifies as an attack. Also, the section is specifically about the shift in strategy, which basically is an attack plan. ] 18:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::You've got my support. Teach the controversy along with the ] were created to ''attack'' science in general, and Evolution specifically. I'll revert changes where necessary. ] 01:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
It seems like we came up with a verbiage that wasn't as POV as "attacking" but not as ] as " to assert opinions contrary to". Good for consensus. ] 02:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==What does it do?== |
|
|
|
|
|
By reading the first paragraph of this article, It shows me that this article is as far away from the NPOV as it can get...] 21:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Of course, you mean by "as far away from the NPOV as it can get" that it lacks verifiable references and citations, that it gives undue weight to minority POV, that it does not allow the facts to speak for themselves, and that it is a POV fork from an NPOV article. But, the article has numerous verifiable references, it does not give undue weight to a minority POV, it lets the facts speak for themselves, and it is not a POV fork. So it must be that your concern is focused on the fact numerous court cases and very intelligent individuals have uncovered the Discovery Institute's duplicitous and unconstitutional attempts to trick Boards of Education into trying to force our children from learning some Christian Creationist propaganda. Of course, also causing these foolish boards to pay untold millions of dollars in defending losing cases in Federal court, instead of spending that money on something useful like education. So, I guess all of those facts, followed with verified references, must violate DI's NPOV, because it doesn't violate Wiki's. ] 01:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::Well, we can't accuse them of "manufacturing the controversy they want to teach" or promoting a "false perception" without attribution to a specific source. These are statements of opinion - even if they have a citation, they still need to be attributed to a speaker (not written as fact). And we certainly can't do that in the very first sentence, at all. Please wait until at least the second paragraph of the article to write about the scientific consensus and critical response to the Discovery Institute. I reworked the lead paragraph. ] 05:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::I agree with Odd nature that the Dover ruling supports the "manufacturing the controversy they want to teach" and "false perception" statements in the lead paragraph.] 00:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::Rhobite, don't make massive POV changes in an article like this without discussing it. All, and I mean ALL, of the references show that this is an attempt to force Creationism in schools. Can you prove otherwise? ] 07:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Court rulings do not magically create facts. They are primary sources, and statements from court opinions still need to be attributed. I take issue with the first two sentences of this article, both of which state opinions as if they are facts. This article presents the scientific consensus extremely well, but it is a blemish on an otherwise well-written article to have these biased statements in its lead paragraph. It is a statement of opinion to say that Discovery Institute "manufactur the controversy they want to teach". It is a statement of opinion to say that "they promote the false perception that evolution is a theory in crisis". I share these opinions, but I recognize that they are opinions. |
|
|
|
|
|
I also take issue with your characterization of my changes as "massive". Rewording two sentences in a large article cannot be considered "massive" changes. I also consolidated some redundant references, a change which you've inexplicably reverted. Please consider discussing this matter instead of reverting again. ] 00:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I think that the LEAD was well written, accurate and well-sourced. And in this instance, court rulings and findings of fact are VERY relevant. --] 05:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::The proposed restructuring by ] gives undue credibility to clearly fraudulent claims, so I've returned it to the previous version which made clear in the opening paragraph that the ploy by the ID has been described as false by a Fed. court as well as by the scientific community. The opinions are properly attributed, and need to be made clear at the outset. .. ], ] 17:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Not at all. The intro must be seen as a unit and it clearly contains the verdict of the court (which under wiki-rules is just a POV and not a fact - I don't dispute the view but so are our rules here). There is no rule that requires such a statement in the opening paragraph, especially if this leads to a reprise of the same stuff later on in the same section. If you can make it more concise, go ahead. The topic by the way is not a "ploy" but the phrase coined by the DI. ] ] 20:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I'll grudgingly accept FeloniousMonk's restructuring of the lead paragraph, although I strongly believe that the job of a lead paragraph is to present the basic concept and criticism should be discussed, at the earliest, in the second paragraph of an article. It is disappointing to see that this article is controlled by single-issue editors with a specific POV. ] 23:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:You asked for reasons, so let me try to explain, assuming that you are making a legitimate request. The lead needs to be balanced and present verified and notable sources. For example, the article about Nazis does not start out utilizing Nazi propaganda in the lead. Microsoft can't write the lead and say that it produces the best and safest software. And in the case of this article, there is substantial evidence of what the real purpose is of DI, Intelligent Design and Teach the Controversy. It is balance by letting you or any other editor write what Teach the Controversy is, but other editors get to balance the lead with what it "really" is, using citations at every step of the way. And that's why calling us "single-issue" editors with a POV agenda is wrong. In fact, if someone wrote the lead as "this is an underhanded and disingenuous method of putting religion in the school" and that was it, I'd yell out POV too. It's balance and giving equal weight. ] 23:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::The article about Nazism also doesn't claim that the Nazis created the false perception that there is a master race. I'll stop there since we seem to be at a compromise on the language. ] 00:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:::It could contain such statements and they would be supportable and factual. If the Nazis then claimed that such remarks were disappointing POV statements, what then?] 23:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Actually, "false perception" would be endorsing a POV - one that I agree with but still. WP adheres to NPOV. |
|
|
::::Pasado, could you please point out what passages you mean by "The intro needs to be factual, not ID position statements" - the version you reverted is just as factual and neutral as the one you reverted to. ] ] 07:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::I've reverted you as well, the changes you made favor the pov of the TTC/ID crowd by placing their partisan rhetoric before noting easily verifiable facts and more neutral accounts. I suggest you take the time to read all the relevant sources and stop favoring those that are demonstrably partisan, like the Discovery Institute's. ] 15:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== tags == |
|
|
|
|
|
Poed up a couple places that need cited. A bit too full of offset quotes, this article is, but it shouldn't be too hard to get it up to speed. ] <sup>]</sup> 04:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Chesterfield County Public Schools== |
|
|
As reported at ], they now seem to have a "teach the controversy" policy, though they've shied away from textbooks mentioning ID..... ], ] 19:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
=="a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions."== |
|
|
Ctrl+F this quote and you'll see it ''five times'' in the article. A little much, no? Can someone who works on it look at pruning it down a bit? Repeating a quote more than once should only be done if necessary, but by the fifth time I was really getting sick of seeing that one. ] 10:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:Seriously, this article is very redundant in it's quotations of the wedge document. My eyes started skipping around because I thought I was rereading the same paragraph.] 23:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== New source == |
|
|
|
|
|
June 4, 2008 New York Times. Some highlights: |
|
|
* Opponents of teaching evolution, in a natural selection of sorts, have gradually shed those strategies that have not survived the courts. Over the last decade, creationism has given rise to "creation science," which became "intelligent design" |
|
|
|
|
|
* Now a battle looms in Texas over science textbooks that teach evolution, and the wrestle for control seizes on three words. None of them are "creationism" or "intelligent design" or even "creator." The words are "strengths and weaknesses." |
|
|
|
|
|
* Already, legislators in a half-dozen states — Alabama, Florida, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri and South Carolina — have tried to require that classrooms be open to "views about the scientific strengths and weaknesses of Darwinian theory," according to a petition from the Discovery Institute, the Seattle-based strategic center of the intelligent design movement. |
|
|
|
|
|
] (]) 19:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Flying Spaghetti Monster? == |
|
|
|
|
|
What relevance to this does that have? |
|
|
] (]) 22:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:The FSM was invented as a satirical response to the 'Teach the Controversy' position of the Kansas SBoE. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 04:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Teach the Controversy isn't on the Flying Spaghetti Monster page. The claimed "response" seems to be 3 years late.. Well, if it stays I want my column about the ] placed back on the ] page. --] (]) 06:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:It's in relation to the Kansas hearings mention. ] (]) 18:36, 21 September 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Which side is right?== |
|
|
|
|
|
The DI and other sources disagree about how much scientific controversy there is over evolution: indeed whether there is any such controversy at all. |
|
|
*] view: |
|
|
*:there are '''some''' "current peer-reviewed scientific controversies over evolution" |
|
|
*] view: |
|
|
*:there is no significant controversy within the scientific community about the validity of the theory of evolution. |
|
|
*:The current controversy surrounding the teaching of evolution is not a scientific one |
|
|
*] view: |
|
|
*:Such controversies as do exist concern the details of the mechanisms of evolution, not the validity of the over-arching theory of evolution |
|
|
|
|
|
Which viewpoint should this article take? And why? |
|
|
#The article should support the viewpoint that the scientific mainstream fully supports evolution, while dismissing DI's claim of the existence of "scientific controversy" |
|
|
#The article should point out that 99.9% of biologists support evolution, while acknowledging that a tiny minority of biologists have raised questions about the theory's validity |
|
|
|
|
|
I am not sure what the latest incarnation of NPOV is, or how it's being interpreted these days. But I read somewhere recently that "]" is not a criterion in this matter: only verifiability. So is it okay for me to mention the reasoning behind the DI claim that scientific controversy exists? Or must I as a contributor go along with the consensus here that there is no controversy: DI is only saying there is? --] (]) 00:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
:See ], ] and ]. All the mainstream sources I've seen consider that the "controversy" over the existence of evolution and the validity of modern evolutionary theory in general has long been resolved, while the DI view is a fringe view shared with creationists – it's a theological controversy, not a scientific one. There are real controversies, such as debate about the relative importance of natural selection and genetic drift in accounting for what is found in evolution. . ], ] 09:46, 2 December 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:So you're saying that the mainstream is right, and that there is no scientific controversy here? --] (]) 18:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
::I'm saying that the DI's view is a fringe view in science, effectively nonexistent as they've failed to publish any scientific support for their view. . . ], ] 19:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
::: There most definitely are still scientific controversies over evolution. There are still scientists who hold on to group selection. There is still a great deal of controversy over evolutionary psychology. If the language used is just that there are scientific controversies over evolution, then that cannot be denied. If the language used is that there are scientific controversies over whether evolution occurs, then that's a fringe view indeed. ] (]) 17:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::The "controversy" the DI wish to manufacture is over ''whether'' evolution occurs. They may tactically make use of peripheral controversies over ''how'' evolution occurs and its applicability to other subjects (e.g. psychology), in order to falsely give the impression that there is a scientific controversy over "whether". <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 18:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::DI is attempting to "create" a controversy, so that they can push religious teaching in public schools. It's offensive and should be pointed out in an NPOV article. Welcome back Hrafn. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 18:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Worries about source #53. == |
|
|
|
|
|
Having read the statement "...intelligent design groups have threatened and isolated high school science teachers, school board members and parents who opposed their efforts..." I was interested in the sources of this statement (quite a few given). Having read source 53: <ref> ] September 28, 2005</ref>, I cannot find any part of the documents that applies to Ms. Smith to be in support of this statement. If any more experienced wikipedian can take a good look at it, it would be highly appreciated. ] (]) 20:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I don't think it is problematic to claim that ''individual'' proponents of ID have engaged in this behaviour (the documentary evidence cited is fairly strong on this), however to state it as "groups" would require evidence of collective and/or coordinated efforts -- which I think is lacking. Also, where a citation is to a longer document, a page number or quote identifying where in the document it supports the statement would be useful. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 03:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Repetition == |
|
|
|
|
|
I can see the quoted text "Christian and theistic convictions" five times in the article. Isn't this a bit much for one quote? ] (]) 10:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:It is excessive. As it's a quote from the Wedge Document, it makes sense to have it in the 'Wedge Strategy' section and maybe the lead and/or 'Overview'. Elsewhere is just excess. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 10:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I have removed two of the three copies from the 'Origin of the campaign' section. Thinking about it, as this is a prominent quote, the way to emphasise it should be to turn it into a ], not to keep repeating it. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 10:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:A further point -- is the 'Origin of the campaign' section needed at all? It actually says ''nothing whatsoever'' about the campaign, it merely recaps ] & ]. As such, it could be replaced by a short paragraph & a Further-template. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 10:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::I was ] and replaced the 'Origin of the campaign' section (which was misplaced at the middle of the article anyway), with a sentence at the top of the 'Overview' section drawing readers attention to the two articles that the section originally summarised. We are now down to only ''two'' repetitions of the quote. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 11:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Thanks, that's a worthwhile improvement. . ], ] 11:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== The article as a whole == |
|
|
|
|
|
The more I look at the article, the less happy I am with it. The structure is poor -- overly long lead and overview, and fairly cryptic section titles. And the prose is turgid -- take the opening sentence for instance: "Teach the Controversy is the name of a Discovery Institute intelligent design campaign to promote intelligent design, a variant of traditional creationism, while discrediting evolution in United States public high school science courses." |
|
|
|
|
|
I think the article needs to be structured around answers to the following questions: |
|
|
#Prelude: why was there a campaign? |
|
|
#*Because of resistance to openly teaching ID in schools. |
|
|
#What were the aims of the campaign? |
|
|
#*To get the same type of 'equal treatment' (that SCOTUS-struck-down laws sought for creation science) for ID. |
|
|
#How was the campaign conducted? |
|
|
#*Through the DI, friendly politicians, including friendly SBOE members. |
|
|
#What was the reaction to it? |
|
|
#*Scientific community & then KvD eviscerating it. |
|
|
#Epilogue: where did ID go from there? |
|
|
#*] |
|
|
|
|
|
What do people think? <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 12:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
There is no controversy. Evolution is real. We should not pretend like it exists and therefore we should delete this article 99.101.56.68 (talk) 18:16, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
