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== Evanescence - Gothic or not? ==
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Evanescence would have to be included as a modern goth metal band. The operatic singing/piano of Amy Lee combined with the metal sound and themes warrant their inclusion. This is perhaps a sign that the goth genre may be due for a revival, as they won a Grammy for best new artist.


== The article is contradictory ==
Why you ask? Because obviously they are not gothic. Amy Lees singing is not operatic, and the piano playing makes her sound more like ] then Theatre of Tragedy. And a Grammy doesnt mean anything. Like every other fad, they will be very popular but after they release another album, their popularity will quickly wane and fade out of existence.


This article has a huge contradiction. In the beginning and the "Characteristics" section the gothic metal genre is decribed as a subgenre of death-doom with corresponding features. However, later Evanescence, HIM and Nightwish are introduced despite having 0% death-doom influence. So you should either remove the mention of death-doom and bands that play in this style (real gothic metal) completely, or remove the pseudo gothic metal bands and create a separate article for them. The way this page looks now is unacceptable and misleading. The sentence that is started with "Other variations include" doesn't have any sources. ] (]) 21:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Just because Amy Lee dresses in clothes that are a little dark, sings and tries to sound depressed and sings all angst makes her far from gothic. Actually thats the mainstream stereotype of gothic and quite different. Maybe you should read the ] article and listen to some gothic bands to see how different the 2 sound. --]
* Because none of these bands are Gothic metal, and the article is ridiculously bad. ] (]) 20:34, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


== A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion ==
:'''~ Evanescence are Gothic!! ~
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
No, your wrong Arm! Evanescence are gothic. Amy Lee does sing operatic and because she has another talent, playing the piano (for 9yrs) doesnt mean it makes her sound like Tori Amos, one of her infulences. And yes a Grammy does mean something, it means shes Best New Artist! Better than Queensrÿche which I might add have never heard of before in my life.
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2019-04-21T19:21:24.886937 | Amy Lee 2.jpg -->
Amy Lee does dress in clothes that are dark which is her style obviously, it's not like shes trying to be someone shes not. And if you had a life like Amy's with her close sister dying at a young age wouldn't you think that she might be depressed a little bit maybe? Plus as well as having a abusive realationship for about 2yrs which includes physical abusement like hitting, slapping, punching and rape. Sure Evanescence might sound different to other gothic artists but hey sure every band has a different sound and Evanescence arent just Gothic theyre also Hard Rock and Industrial Tendencies.'''
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 19:21, 21 April 2019 (UTC)


== First usage of the "Gothic Metal" label ==
:: A more proper question is rather Evanscene are ] or not. Goth music is has a much wider scope of styles than goth metal. Lee singing is not operatic and the style is somewhat similiar to ] - a band which is widely considered "goth metal" band. Band like Evanscene is what I call "Soft Gothic Metal" which far less agressive and classical than Scandinavian or doom gothic metal. ] 08:16, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)


Citing ] - a reasonably informed source - the article's "Etymology" section opens by stating that the "gothic metal" tag was first used with Paradise Lost's 1991 "Gothic" album. That's actually incorrect. There is a headline from an August 1990 '']'' article that reads: "ON TOUR, GOTHIC METAL BAND DANZIG USUALLY GOES IT ALONE". Here's the source: . I think that should be mentioned in the article. ] (]) 12:46, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
:::If Evanescence aren't in the cat, Lacuna Coil wouldn't be. I defy you to tell them apart in A-B testing without knowing the songs. "goth metal" contains a ''lot'' of things purist goths wouldn't let you call "goth" - ] 17:14, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)


Evanescense is Nu-Metal. I've removed the band from the list.


:. Could be older. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:41, 25 May 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::: I returned Evanescense to the list, as many regard it as Goth metal band. However, I added dispute notice as following: "] (label as Gotg metal is ])". ] 16:48, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)


== Were the "Peaceville Three" the true pioneers of Gothic Metal? ==
::::: How can you see Evanescense as Goth Metal? First of all, Evanescense is not Metal in any way. Evanescense is closer to Nu-Metal than anything else. The main reason for this, is that Goth is not supposed to be infected with Teen-Angst lyrics. Please read once more, the definitions of ] and ], then listen to the music. This discussion gives me the creeps. How can one even slightly doubt?


It appears to be common knowledge that Paradise Lost initiated gothic metal with '']'' - female vocals, the orchestral flourishes, the goth rock influence - but it was really with 1993's '']'' that the blueprint of goth metal was laid (). The other two british death-doom bands, My Dying Bride and Anathema, soon followed suit. What I rarely see in articles about goth metal metal's history is that roots of the style were actually in goth bands - specifically Fields of the Nephilim, Sisters of Mercy & Christian Death - making metal-like songs rather than metal bands going goth. An example? Field of the Nephilim's 1988 track "Phobia" sounds a lot like Motörhead's "Ace of Spades": . To be fair, this Misplaced Pages briefly mentions this. My suggestion: write something about this in the opening paragraphs, before talking about the so-called "Peaceville Three" as the pionners of the subgenre. ] (]) 14:08, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
::I reverted it because 1. you don't refer to stuff in the Misplaced Pages article space in an article. 2. 'disputed' means 'verifiably disputed in the wider world'. That is, do you have references? - ] 16:55, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
* ] ('']'', 1992) and ] ('']'', august 1993) both released gothic metal albums before ''Icon'' (september 1993). Tiamat released '']'' in 1994, and in 1995, when the other two "followed suit", there were already ''Inferno'' by ] and '']'' by Theatre of Tragedy. Looks like it's "common knowledge" to just ignore anyone who's not british death-doom. ] (]) 20:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
::You also had ]'s '']'' released in August 1993 , and the band itself formed in 1989 , . All of this can be added, just make sure that it's backed up with references.--] (] &#124; ]) 22:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


== Lot of bands are missing... ==
::: 1. Please clarify. 2. Read the above discussion, there are some who regard it as a Goth metal band. It is indeed very different than early Paradise Lost or Tristania, but are very semiliar to Lacona Coil (which is regarded Goth metal by nearly everyone). What is the difference between the two? ] 17:23, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
...and a shit load of crap bands dominates the article. Cradle of Filth? Not Goth metal. Evanescence? Not Goth metal. HIM? I'm really not a fan of bad jokes...

* Cradle of Filth is basically a symphonic black metal band with occasional gothic songs (such as Nymphetamine, Death of Love or The Persecution Song). To them, it seems, these songs serve the same purpose as power ballads for heavy metal bands. ] (]) 08:00, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
::::'' ~ Evanescence are Gothic!! ~
No, your wrong Arm! Evanescence are gothic. Amy Lee does sing operatic and because she has another talent, playing the piano (for 9yrs) doesnt mean it makes her sound like Tori Amos, one of her infulences. And yes a Grammy does mean something, it means shes Best New Artist! Better than Queensrÿche which I might add have never heard of before in my life.
Amy Lee does dress in clothes that are dark which is her style obviously, it's not like shes trying to be someone shes not. And if you had a life like Amy's with her close sister dying at a young age wouldn't you think that she might be depressed a little bit maybe? Plus as well as having a abusive realationship for about 2yrs which includes physical abusement like hitting, slapping, punching and rape. Sure Evanescence might sound different to other gothic artists but hey sure every band has a different sound and Evanescence arent just Gothic theyre also Hard Rock and Industrial Tendencies. ''

Thanks for the reply, Mr. X. I always enjoy to have these little debates.

If you want to hear a female goth metal singer sing operatic then go listen to some ] songs. They can be downloaded off ] programs or you can get samples from www.nightwish.com.
Amy Lees vocals are far from operatic. Closer then Britney Spears but shes no Tarja Turunen.

And I dont care if they won Grammys or not. I see the Grammy awards as a big farce anyway. But Queensryche did have mainstream success too. They arent some obsecure indie band.

Being abused doesnt give you any artistic ability that you wouldnt already have. That just puts you in the same category of poetic quality as the frontman of ]. Oh and about her being in an abusive relationship, ''Get out of an abusive relationship, stupid!''

But I just dont find Evanescence to be gothic. Amy Lees singing is not mysterious or alluring, the musics not dark and the lyrics dont take on the typical goth metal subjects. At least not the way a goth metal songwriter would. Thats all.

And I am not some big goth metal purist.--]

: ] are actually a ] band, not Gothic. A good example for Gothic operaic singer is ] from ] or ] from ]. ] 10:20, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:: Nightwish is a combination of power metal and gothic metal. --]
::: ""We're definitely a rock band," says the 20-year-old Lee. "But the twist is that the band's music is epic, dramatic, dark rock."" - Quote from http://www.evanescencewebsite.com, an Evanescence fanpage. Also, if you read the ] page on Misplaced Pages, it says "Evanescence is a rock band from Little Rock, Arkansas". I most kindly disagree with any point of view that says "evanescence is *metal", because Evanescence does not contain any metal influences, IMHO. Only the listeners like to think that they are "hardcore". --]

::::Interesting that that website has been used as evidence that they aren't Gothic - the meta tags use 'goth' and 'gothic'. This is something I found from the (official) Placebo website a few years ago, when I viewed the source to see how something was down (forget what the effect was now, but I remember some of the meta information they were using for the search engines). Shall have to look at the official Evanescence website and see what search terms they're trying to elicit (when I have less windows open - you never know how much flash, bells and whistles a band site is going to have) ]

:::: Evanscence is more sort of a ] band to my opinion. However, I suggest to keep them in the list and add a ''dispute'' label and redirection to this talk page. ] 13:19, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)



:::::Except that articles should not link outside article space. Also, asking the band is irrelevant - if you believe that, ] aren't goth either - ] 15:33, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:::::: Evanescence isn't gothic metal because they're just not metal. Modern goth rock, maybe. I'd just put them as a gloomy alternative rock band. But not gothic metal. That doesn't mean that they aren't any good- on the contrary, I enjoy them quite a bit. But they're not metal. Is it really that big of a deal?

---------------------------

Evanescence isnt Gothic Rock or Gothic Metal. Amy Lee first off pirated every song she did from other bands. Second she rewrite a lot of the music to be in the Nu Metal form. In case you missed it, dressing in Black and having a female vocalist does not make you a Gothic Metal band, as can be seen in bands, Nightwish, Fairyland, Synergy, Therion, and Lullacry. Second, learn how to write and compose music, the compusure of Evanescence is nothing alike Gothic Metal or Gothic Rock. Lastly, youve got most of your history wrong in that Evanescence created the Nu-Goth scense with Nightwish, Lacuna Coil, Within Temptation and Tristania. I will keep editing this until its amended - Ley Shade ~~]

== Other bands on the list - Goth or not? ==

Leaving aside Evanescence for now, I would dispute a few more of those on the list. Therion, for instance - is there really anyone who would consider them goth metal? Not only that, doom/death bands like My Dying Bride and Anathema are also on there, but shouldn't be --] 02:37, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC).

: In the narrow sense, Therion is a symphonic death metal band. However, "goth metal" in its broader sense is relating to any combination of some kind of metal with folk\opera\goth elements.
: ] and ] are doom metal bands, but bands that uses gothic keyboards (and violin) and not employing a female vocals, and it was described in the article. In the early 1990's they were part of the forming goth metal movement, but while the goth metal evolved in Scandinavia into "beauty and the beast" style (see ] and ]) they remained in goth metal's early doom stage. They are well described as gothic doom metal bands, at least in their early-1990's phase. ] 13:17, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Seraphim and Edenbridge. I can see how Nightwish are power gothic, but not so much on those two.

Nightwish are some kind of gothic hybrid.
Anathema and My Dying Bride are *definately* more doom than goth. Though i'd hesitate to put them in the same kind of kettle of fish as say Candlemass who are definately doom.
Edenbridge don't describe themselves as Gothic metal. They called themselves "angelic bombast metal" or some such trash last i checked.
Seraphim are gothic metal.

-------

If you said to any real Gothic Metal fan, that 'Gothic Metal is related to any metal using Opera/Folk/Gothic Rock elements' you would be promplty hit repeatedly. Folk elements are in Folk Metal, Opera based elements are of the genre Symphonic Metal. Oh, and the Gothic Metal scene hates being called Goth Metal. Maybe you should interview bands and get to know the scene before making rash assumptions with no real knowledge.
<p>
Therion is the Proto-Symphonic Metal band much like Black Sabbath is the Proto-Doom Metal band. Also Therion hates Gothic Metal, and the band members have been arrested more than once for attacking a fan who has called them as such. Therion has also never had anything to do with Gothic Metal, having worked in the Symphonic Metal scene since their creation.
<p>
Nightwish is also Power Metal, using a piano based VSTI and having a Female singer doesnt change the genre of music. They started off as Power Metal long before Tarja joined and have remained that way. Also note again, the musical composition is completely different to that of Gothic Metal, as you can read in the edited article. 1 vocalist akin to Symphonic Metal doesnt make a Gothic Metal band.
<p>
Anathema and My Dying Bride are Doom Metal, period. They helped found the Doom Metal scene and are reknown around the world in the Doom Metal scene. They have nothing to do with Gothic Metal, save they use a keyboard. Dont think they arent Doom Metal simply because they are more modern Doom, and helped start the Gothic Doom subgenre that Gothic Metal comes from.
<p>
Edenbridge, having played with the band and worked with them previously, are Symphonic Metal, they simply use higher notes than most current Symphonic Metal bands, one change doesnt define the genre.
Seraphim are not Gothic Metal, check your musical composition notes again. The composition is nothing alike - Ley Shade ~~]

== tidy up ==

This article is okay, but it could do with being split up a bit more (not into separate page, I hasten to add).

By way of an example, the following are sections from the articles on ] and ] that could conceivably have corresponding sections added (or existing content placed into sections) on this page. While some of these are probably redudant because they appear on other pages (predecessors) and others would be different because of this is a different genre (how many generations of Goth metal are there? Are there any generations to speak of at all?)

Origins and influences
First Generation
Second Generation
Third Generation
Musical Predecessors
Musical arrangements
Modern subculture
Gothic horror
References
See also

I found the musical arrangements section on the music page to be interesting (even though I'm not a musician), though I couldn't say how accurate a lot of the information is.

== talk about other things ==

How many other Goth-related articles are there on Misplaced Pages? How good is the related articles section of the main Goth entry?

== Goth or Gothic ==

"Goth" metal isn't really the best title. It's more commonly called Gothic Metal, and Goth Metal suggests it only has to do with goths or goth music, which isn't accurate with all the different thing GM's become (not that it really was in the first page). Should it be switched around?

: I am also prefer the name Gothic metal, it seem to describe more properly the music - which is influenced more by medieval Gothic music rather than goth rock. ] 07:07, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:: I third that. And also, Google favors the term (527,000 hits for "gothic metal" vs. 127,000 for "goth metal"). Are there any objections to my moving the page to ]? --] 1 July 2005 23:53 (UTC)
:::Change it - this really is one of the few places that seemed to favor "goth metal." Not the best for an online reference.
::::Ok. Done. --] 00:41, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

--------------------

Gothic Metal is what the fans of the genre call it, calling it Goth Metal implys they are a Nu-Goth band in allegiance with Goth-Metal.net which is a plain out insult. Also, the two names mean completely different things. Gothic Metal got its name from being based around the Gothic Ages and Romanticide themes. Goth-Metal which is the name that comes from Nu-Goth implys that its metal done by supposed 'Goths'. Gothic Metal bands and fans hate being called Goth-Metal and usually do attack anyone on site who calls them it. - Ley Shade ~~]

== External links to official band sites ==

All of these links to the bands' sites are redundant, since the articles for the bands themselves have those links, and ]. I'd like to remove those, if it's ok. --] 1 July 2005 23:55 (UTC)
:Yes, it would look better cleaned up. Go for it.
:Yes, they can have them in their own wiki if at all.


== Romanticide And Fantacide ==

To clear it up, as most people probaly dont know what the two are. Romanticide is the tale of romantic lore that ends in death of one or both partners, (Romeo and Juliet, Beauty and the Beast). Fantacide is the Fantasy Based Romance that ends in tragedy, (Snow Snow White, Her Rapunzel). Most bands write their own storys in this manner. The words are actuall words, but i also have all the spelling abilitys of a learning impaired mosquito. - Ley Shade ~~]
: Thanks for doing that. I was looking for articles on those, and they weren't there, so I substituted Romanticism and Fantasy for the time being. Thanks for clearing that up. --] 02:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

==The list of bands that are not gothic metal==
In the interest of ], it would probably be best if we did not include a list of bands that are not gothic metal. Other genres' articles do not do this, and if this article did, then that would set off a flurry of controversy as bad as "Is (band name) ] or just ]?", a topic that's been beaten to death on many forums. We could probably split the list of gothic metal bands into its own article at ] if necessary (it isn't long enough to justify doing that yet), but if the list of "not gothic metal" bands were made into its own article, it would be ] without a doubt. If somebody wants to know if a specific band is (or isn't) gothic metal, then the talk page is always open, and of course it's already been used for the ugly Evanescence case. --] 02:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
<p>
------------
<p>
Fair enough i wont dispute that, and ill leave that be - on note of the Nu-Goth thing DANTE! Evanescence fronted the idea and were the front of it. Reposting it back to what it just was, before Idont edited it out parts.


== Leyasu's edits ==
<p>
I, like others, find little rationale to user Leyasu's revamp of the page. Like the removal of pre-1990 influences - Christian Death, Samhain and Celtic Frost (all progenitors or indirect progenitors of the Gothic Metal genre). Also, the removal of most of the "List of Gothic Metal bands" list has also been without any explanation. Mention of "]" seems to be a neologism/POV and the extended nature of what band is or isn't true "gothic metal" is turning the page into a rant zine. Leyasu - It was fine the way it was; please leave it as that. --] 02:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
<p>
-------
<p>
The removal of pre history is because they didnt have any influence on Gothic Metal, they influenced Gothic Doom, which is explained on the Doom Metal genre's page. Also, the list was wrong and i found all of 2 bands on there that had anything to do with Gothic Metal, most of them where Symphonic Metal, Gothic Doom Metal and Black Metal. I am simply editing this having worked, and working with most of the bands inside the Gothic, Gothic Doom and Symphonic Metal genres. It wasnt fine the way it was either, as if you hadnt noticed, their is a whole bunch of Gothic Metal bands currently black listing your site and Goth-Metal.net. Your page was pretty much nothing to do with Gothic metal in the end, and was full of wrong assumption. If you want to reword what ive said or make it easier to understand, im cool with that as my language skills can be lacking. But your information was mostly wrong, and ive done nothing but correct it on request of many people and bands themselfs. - Ley Shade ~~]
<p>
IDont i ask for your opinion in this matter as what ive put is from years of working in that form of music, being part of this form of music and knowing the bands personally. I also explained in far better detail what is and isnt Gothic Metal and pointed out all previous mistakes. I ask for your opinion in this matter, as only Dante seems to disagree with me. - Ley Shade - ~~]


== Nu-Goth ==

Nu-Goth is the term that as forementioned bands coined themselfs as in regards to the form of music they were adapting. They said that they were Nu-Goth bands taking Nu Metal and making it more 'Gothic'. They came up with the name and advertised it, and still do. It drives a rift between Nu Metal and Gothic Metal further, as Gothic Metal and Nu-Goth sound most nothing alike. And many Symphonic Metal and Gothic Metal bands have openly joined the growing Nu-Goth craze. The Nu-Goth's motto and headline for devolpment is, 'The New Way Of Gothic Music'.
<p>
Just thought id apologise if the way i type things comes off as Neoglism/POV. My language skills arent the post, so feel free to reword it to make it less standoffish/arrogant/agrresive if you so wish.


Evanescence is just a mainstream band although not a bad band i wouldnt put them in in Gothic gemre for the simple fact that no self respecting Goth would ever take them seriously Evanescence needs to stop thinking about selling records and concentrate more on gaining respect or wind up like so many mainstream bands and becoming has beens ]

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The article is contradictory

This article has a huge contradiction. In the beginning and the "Characteristics" section the gothic metal genre is decribed as a subgenre of death-doom with corresponding features. However, later Evanescence, HIM and Nightwish are introduced despite having 0% death-doom influence. So you should either remove the mention of death-doom and bands that play in this style (real gothic metal) completely, or remove the pseudo gothic metal bands and create a separate article for them. The way this page looks now is unacceptable and misleading. The sentence that is started with "Other variations include" doesn't have any sources. 5.18.243.129 (talk) 21:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:21, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

First usage of the "Gothic Metal" label

Citing Gavin Baddeley - a reasonably informed source - the article's "Etymology" section opens by stating that the "gothic metal" tag was first used with Paradise Lost's 1991 "Gothic" album. That's actually incorrect. There is a headline from an August 1990 The Morning Call article that reads: "ON TOUR, GOTHIC METAL BAND DANZIG USUALLY GOES IT ALONE". Here's the source: . I think that should be mentioned in the article. Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:46, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


The term already appeared in 1985 in connection with the band 45 Grave. Could be older. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.70.206.102 (talk) 06:41, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Were the "Peaceville Three" the true pioneers of Gothic Metal?

It appears to be common knowledge that Paradise Lost initiated gothic metal with Gothic - female vocals, the orchestral flourishes, the goth rock influence - but it was really with 1993's Icon that the blueprint of goth metal was laid (). The other two british death-doom bands, My Dying Bride and Anathema, soon followed suit. What I rarely see in articles about goth metal metal's history is that roots of the style were actually in goth bands - specifically Fields of the Nephilim, Sisters of Mercy & Christian Death - making metal-like songs rather than metal bands going goth. An example? Field of the Nephilim's 1988 track "Phobia" sounds a lot like Motörhead's "Ace of Spades": . To be fair, this Misplaced Pages briefly mentions this. My suggestion: write something about this in the opening paragraphs, before talking about the so-called "Peaceville Three" as the pionners of the subgenre. Musicaindustrial (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

You also had Saviour Machine's Saviour Machine I released in August 1993 , and the band itself formed in 1989 , . All of this can be added, just make sure that it's backed up with references.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Lot of bands are missing...

...and a shit load of crap bands dominates the article. Cradle of Filth? Not Goth metal. Evanescence? Not Goth metal. HIM? I'm really not a fan of bad jokes...

  • Cradle of Filth is basically a symphonic black metal band with occasional gothic songs (such as Nymphetamine, Death of Love or The Persecution Song). To them, it seems, these songs serve the same purpose as power ballads for heavy metal bands. Beaumain (talk) 08:00, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
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