Revision as of 15:11, 21 March 2009 editGrk1011 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers35,445 edits →Personal life: reply← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 06:17, 23 February 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,012,239 edits Implementing WP:PIQA (Task 26)Tag: Talk banner shell conversion | ||
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{{Talk header}} | |||
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= | |||
{{Old peer review|archive=1}} | |||
{{WPGR|class=B|importance=Low|nested=yes|listas=Rouvas, Sakis}} | |||
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|collapsed=yes | |||
{{WPBiography|living=yes|class=B|priority=Low|musician-work-group=yes|listas=Rouvas, Sakis|nested=yes}} | |||
| blp=yes|listas=Rouvas, Sakis| | |||
{{EurovisionNotice|class=B|importance=Low|nested=yes}} | |||
{{WikiProject Biography|musician-work-group=yes|musician-priority=mid|filmbio-work-group=yes|filmbio-priority=mid}} | |||
{{WikiProject Electronic music|importance=low}} | |||
{{WikiProject Eurovision|importance=Low}} | |||
{{WikiProject Fashion|importance=mid}} | |||
{{WikiProject Greece|importance=High}} | |||
{{WikiProject R&B and Soul Music|importance=low}} | |||
{{WikiProject Rock music|importance=Mid}} | |||
{{WikiProject Television|importance=mid|the-x-factor=yes|the-x-factor-importance=mid}} | |||
{{WikiProject Pop music}} | |||
{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors|user=Miniapolis|date=11 February 2014}} | |||
}} | }} | ||
{{press|date=27 July 2011|url=http://www.agelioforos.gr/default.asp?pid=7&ct=63&artid=104400|title=Μακάβρια ανάρτηση της Misplaced Pages για τον Σάκη Ρουβά!|org=Agelioforos|author=Staff Reporter|}} | |||
{{To do|small=yes}} | |||
{{Archive box|search=yes| | |||
: ] | |||
}} | |||
== Married? == | |||
OK, seeing as how prior to my edits there was a claim that he got married in a civil ceremony (or something) in August/08, I went along with it, but now I am actually starting to doubt this. I never actually heard him say "I got married" or wtv and he also said that marriage was not in his plans for the time being. He could possibly mean that he and Zygouli have not yet had a church ceremony and don't plan to, so as he follows Greek Orthodoxy devoutly, they would not be married by religious standards, however, the marriage would still be legal. Civil ceremonies are often done in Greece with eligitimate children involved, esp. for the reason of surname, but I haven't been able to find a single reliable source to ref this claim. This would be reason enough to remove the claim from the article, but in interviews, etc. Greek media often describes them as being married or they call Zygouli his wife. If anybody knows anything, please help! :S ] (]) 16:50, 16 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
== FA/GA review == | |||
I think that this article is ready for a FA or GA review, since that'll tell us what needs to be fixed up with it anyway. ] (]) 18:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:A GA review first would follow the general pattern and will present us with plenty of suggestions so fix up the page. Going straight to an FA review might be overwhelming since its guidelines are much stricter. You may however, wish to do am FA so that you don't do lots of stuff that is okay for a GA, but not for an FA. Either way, the waiting list for reviews is long, so I would suggest adding the page for whichever type of review you wish to take on. ] (]) 18:38, 6 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:Have the items on the to do list to the right been taken care of? That's a quick sign for the reviewer that the article isn't ready, so it should be updated or removed depending on its status. ] (]) 18:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
== General issues == | |||
OK so these are some small things I noticed that often have circular edits or inconsistencies: | |||
#Club/venue/organizations names should not be italicized, they are places, not titles, nor should they be put in quotes. | |||
#Make sure all album/film titles are consistently italicized throughout, and songs in quotes. | |||
#We should translate Greek titles consistently, but only once. | |||
#OK, so this one is all over the place: should translated titles (in brackets) be lower case or all upper case like proper titles? | |||
#Also, should translated (bracket) titles of albums be italicized and ones of songs in quotations, or should they just be left plain since they are only translations? | |||
#Occupations in the infobox, as well as birthdate should not be linked, nor should most things in the lead, since it is a summary of words found in the body; make sure things in the body are only linked once. | |||
#Commas, periods, etc. should be placed inside the end quotation mark. ] (]) 09:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Title translations should be lowercase because they are not proper nouns. Not sure whether they should be italicized, but they should be in parenthesis(), not brackets. As for occupations being linked, words should only be linked once per section, not per article. Dates and years should not be linked at all. Commas, periods, etc should ''not'' be placed inside the end quotation mark as they are not part of the quote. Regarding the last part, there is no "official" way to do it in English grammar, so I tend to use the way that makes the most sense logically. ] (]) 15:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::BTW periods etc should be placed inside the quotation marks. it's really basic English grammatic rules. ] (]) 06:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::Wrong. It's editors choice as proper grammar rules contradict each other. Therefore it should be common sense. Quotations are word for word, so unless the period, comma, etc are part of the quotation, they should be placed outside. ] (]) 07:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Too many wikiprojects == | |||
]: ''A few Wikipedians have gotten together to make some suggestions about how we might organize data in articles about Dance.'' Here are some articles they deal with: 18th century dance - 20th century ballet - American folk dance - Ballet comique - Canadian step dance - Country Western Dance International. It's dance moves and competitions, not singers. | |||
]: ''Some have formed this collaboration resource and group dedicated to improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of gymnastics, including the organization of information and articles on this topic area.'' Articles: European Championships, National championships by country, Other notable competitions, Gymnastics routines. | |||
]: ''This project seeks to categorize, organize and expand articles dealing with electronic music.'' | |||
]: ''The Rock music WikiProject is a project, created on June 17, 2006, that helps to assemble editors interested in rock subgenres. '' | |||
]: ''This is to guide the structure and normalize the standard of articles dealing with the Television medium and television series or other forms of episodic programs.'' | |||
As you can see, Rouvas fits into none of these projects and they were removed for good reason. If you would like to have them included, please explain why I am "way off". ] (]) 19:29, 6 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
: He is definitely not covered by WikiProject TV, so I have removed his listing. ] (]) 21:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Conflicts == | |||
Firstly, there was never any consensus whether the years go back to the front or not. Anyway it's better that they are behind so they can follow the same style as the albums, which is the format suggested by WP:Albums, we can't just use two diff year formats bcuz some user likes the look of it better, what's the point. Secondly, we've had this discussion many times and never reached a conclusion about changing the instruments and occupations. Like for instruments guitar is obvious, used in many shows, acknowledged (theofanous acknowledged it on x factor even lol) and all of the others are sourced. They have been acknowledged by other sources and musicians. For the lead the term musician sums up everything (since he has also written etc), not to mention it sounds more professional for a summary than singer. And as for the professions, they are all notable of him. Like someone who owns 4 businesses (EDO, S, Mariella, and future tv/film company) can definitely be considered a businessman, not to mention it is something unique for musicians of the Greek standard. He is often also credited as a dancer and up until the late 90s when he met Evangelinos he choreographed all of his own shows (that's sourced), and even today, like at the S Club he was credited for being very involved in the choreography, lighting etc (I can also get that source). I don't see how they are not notable of him. ] (]) 13:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
== forbes == | |||
The reason why Forbes/Time etc puts them in categories is to give them titles, as can also be seen on the American listings. Lazopoulos is only a part time musician and that is not the primary source of influence that he provides, same as Rouvas with acting and hosting. He is the highest ranked of anyone in that category and only one in top 10, so they do have the power to name him as such. Also, forbes is a franchise, so there is no need to mention greek edition in the lead since its already in the body and mentioning celebrity denotes showbiz so there's nothing wrong with saying "in greece" as it is already clarified u r not including scholars and politicians.] (]) 00:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
:It doesn't matter if he is a "part time musician". A musician is still a musician, whether it be part time or not. He has released albums as a singer, he has written songs, and he has been featured on tracks. A musician is someone who writes, performs, or makes music. He certainly is a musician. Obviously Rouvas' main profession is musician, but saying he is the top musician in this case is misleading. Second, as I understood from the source you initially provided, Forbes only listed the top 10 most influential figures in Greek show business. If they categorized him in a musicians list as well, then the story is different. I don't know that though, since your initial source only spoke about influential figures in showbiz list. I can not find any other sources on Forbes as of right now to check for sure. But if they only provide that one list, my point is that although he is a musician and on the list, they didn't specifically give him the title as "most influential Greek musician". They gave him the title of "third most influential figure in Greek show business" or similar. Of course you could reword it to convey that he was one of the top musicians listed, but the way it is worded now makes it seem like a specific title on a separate list. ] (]) 01:13, 4 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I have found another source on the Forbes list, and have added it to the article accordingly. I have also added more details from the ranking. ] (]) 02:17, 4 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Tag == | |||
I move to take off the fan pov tag. The person that added that was just a random user, whose never been here before or ever come back, and he didn't even start a discussion or address specific concerns. Nothing of the sort was even picked up on peer review. The article is well layed out, its only problem is missing some sources on the earlier career sections, all of which is not anything contentious. Anything that could be perceived as controversial/fan pov in the artistic and legacy sections is well sourced and heavily at that.] (]) 21:21, 8 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
:To be honest, there are still just a few issues here and there. I haven't really read the article in full in a while, but some things that jump out at me include statements like ''For this he received positive attention from American celebrity blogger Perez Hilton, making him the first Greek-born celebrity to achieve this.''. You seem to try to use specific wording to elevate Rouvas and get around the fact that ] was also mentioned back in early 2009, since she is technically American born, although a Greek celebrity. Plus if you want to get even more technical, Rouvas in not even the first "''Greek-born''" celebrity mentioned. For example ] is technically Greek born, and has been mentioned many times on his blog, even having his own category. There are also parts that still read fan pov-ish, and are unreferenced completely in some cases, like the MAD VMA part under "Live performance and music videos" section. There also seem to be some minor issues related to ], ], and ] with phrases/words like "some alleged, many agree, notably" etc. that need to be sorted out. Right now, personally, the whole article seems more of a positive-POV on Rouvas. All though all of it is sourced, I feel that the article would benefit if a more balanced view on Rouvas was presented. Also for the record, the user in the peer review back in 2009 did warn against using language that could violate ], amongst his other concerns. ] (]) 21:50, 9 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::Well like I said the peer reviewer said that in general but never addressed anything that specific. Same with the random user who did not provide any reason for the tag, so the concerns could not be addressed. The article definitely needs more sources, especially for the littler/less controversial statements that do not get noticed. I haven't read most of it through in a while either, but I would assume that the biggest problem of the article is the earlier career sections that have remained like that mostly since the article was first expanded. It shouldn't be too hard to remove some random sentences there and try to phrase them better. As for the Kalomira thing that sentence is representative as she is American-born, but I see about Lee so it'll be fixed accordingly. The MAD part is just a summary of awards which are sourced within the body, so those can be moved down too. I see where the part about clean-up comes in but as far as the POV everything is sourced and there is a good amount of negative information, although I am intending to add more. But of course certain sections are to have a more positive POV like the legacy section. That's inevitable, unless you are Hitler lol. So if you have specific negative aspects you would like to add you either have to add it yourself or address specific concerns to me so I can work on finding sources, so write them below if you have any.] (]) 19:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
::::So two editors including an FA reviewer found the article to be too positive, but their comments should be ignored because they didn't pick through? I believe their comments were directed at the article as a whole. You say that you haven't read through it in a while so I think before you just remove the tag based on what you think the article's condition is, you should read it over and address not only the outright pov issues, but also the potential issues as well. ] (]) 20:32, 10 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::::The reviewer warned to be careful, a standard on wikipedia and for whoever else you are talking about it is irrelevant if not on the talk page. Again the article is very well sourced (the more controversial statements) and if one cannot back-up a claim that they feel it is too positive, as I have given you guys the chance here, then that is clearly a sign that it is your own pov than fact. With the exception of the supposed marriage, which is difficult to source, all of the controversial events and some negative opinions have been covered (actions in military, supposed suicide attempt, green line concert, yacht etc) and some of the acheivements are not even fully represented. I specifically asked what negative points etc you felt were unrepresented and there was no response. Anyway an occasional poorly worded sentence is not equivalent to an article being not neutral in the ideas it presents. Seeing as how there was never any comment from the original user and nothing is happening here after so long, I am justified in taking it out. ] (]) 22:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
==Citation overkill== | |||
] strikes me as a little ]. -- ]] 05:22, 22 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
:...and the number of dead links is appalling. ]] 00:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Article Split == | |||
I've added a split template to the article, as I think it may be time to explore possibly splitting the article. As it stands, the article is almost 160,000 KB. According to ], an article should start being considered for splitting at as little as 50,000 KB, and almost certainly at over 100,000 KB. I'm not sure what can/should be split, but maybe one of the "Artistry", "Public image" or "Legacy and influence" sections could be a start? ] (]) 21:50, 24 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
:Well what specifically did you want to split? The article is long compared to the average article but what remains to be taken out? The obvious ones likes awards, discography etc already exist and in the career section, the individual sections are quite a reasonable length, some are short even. I don't know what you would want to do with the artistry and legacy sections, some of them like the musical section are quite underdeveloped actually. Spin-off articles like one about the 1997 peace concert or influence on popular culture could be done, but I don't see how this would shorten the article by much. Some articles are just long because of the subject, it's not an absolute demand to split. I think it's more important for us to check that individual sections don't get too detailed and long (like focus on an album or ESC, pages which already exist) rather than the overall length.] (]) 01:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
::The issue isn't that it's too detailed, it's that according to Misplaced Pages guidelines, pages should not be so long because it greatly impacts users who may be accessing the page on cell phones or who have slower internet speeds. ] (]) 19:00, 31 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::Well, frankly, that's their problem. Splitting is not an absolute demand, just a suggestion and there are articles over 300 kb. It's pretty common to see articles on even recent musicians that are over 100kb. The reason why I suggested checking that the amount of detail in individual sections is not overkill is because 1) it reads really poorly and 2) it would give us a place to start, moving it to a possibly already existing article, which would also strengthen that article. That's an easier initial step than trying to create an article like "public image of Sakis Rouvas" or whatever. ] (]) 18:09, 1 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
== Many days of careful copy editing reversed with no discussion == | |||
reverted many days of careful copy editing by a member of the ] at the , along with many other fixes to citations. The revert also restored a considerable amount of unsourced text and puffery to the article. I encourage the editors who are watching this article to discuss this latest edit and determine whether it should be undone. – ] (]) 05:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
::I am going to attempt to merge the positives of the copy edit while removing some of the poorer edits discussed so we can reach a happy medium. I'll try to find time in the coming days. Peace. ] (]) 19:46, 16 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::Perhaps you should stop forcing your version in in the meantime, ]? Your protestation that you do not wish to edit-war as you constantly edit-war your changes in is infuriating. You have done nothing today ''but'' edit-war. You've reverted edits from multiple editors and inserted some of the most egregious puffery I've ever seen into the article in the process. I'll give you an opportunity to undo the edit warring you have done today, but will be taking you to ] fairly quickly if your misbehaviour does not stop.—](]) 20:23, 16 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::Really? Perhaps you should stop making destructive (and uninformed) edits and disparaging, condescending remarks to people who are legitimately interested in improving the article, even if it doesn't fit your narrow definition. I've done nothing but try to cooperate with you, only to get short, sarcastic remarks. I politely asked you to not do full reverts, taking out other info, only to find a horribly unrepresentative and highly POV edit to the lead. Forgive me but there's nothing you've specifically pointed out that needs to be changed, you just generalize. As I showed with the FAs none of the stuff you complained about is necessarily inappropriate for a lead (especially when sourced), that's why I asked for specific wording changes/trimming suggestions. Things aren't going to improve with sweeping generalizations and labelling things "terrible". So please don't act as if I'm the one not making attempts to cooperate, I would actually love to get on the same page with other users and have less responsibility for the article (I have very little time). I only regret any copyediting work that may have been deleted, which I'll try to reincorporate, if I can, but the other version of the article was definitely poor. I respect that you are an admin, but you could work on your manners, especially since I've made legitimate communication attempts. ] (]) 23:28, 16 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::I haven't been condescending, ], simply blunt: the article that volunteer editors spent months improving is greatly superior to the one you reverted to. My first comment on your talk page gave you detailed examples of why the version you reverted to is terrible, I have invited you to make constructive and neutral edits, and, instead, you simply take steps to ensure that the article praises the subject instead of describing it. The editors from the Guild of Copy Editors came in to work on the article and have greatly improved it. Your response was to undo their efforts and to insult their knowledge of the English language (which, I must point out, is substantially better than your own).—](]) 01:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Personal life section == | |||
Wouldn't it be better the personal life of Rouvas with Zygouli and the birth of their three children to be separated from the career sections and moved to a personal life section? Why are career and personal life mixed together? ''''']''''' 02:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
:I didn't get any answer on this for almost 20 days so I moved on and did it myself. A personal life section was necessary on the article instead of the personal information being lost in the long career sections. Hope it's OK. ''''']''''' 10:40, 11 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
== External links modified == | |||
Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
I have just added archive links to {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes: | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100124130401/http://www.yupi.gr:80/gkrinia/c14026/O_Royvas_H8opoios_Part_2.html to http://www.yupi.gr/gkrinia/c14026/O_Royvas_H8opoios_Part_2.html | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100203053936/http://www.yupi.gr:80/gossip/c12704/Sexi_Ellhnes.html to http://www.yupi.gr/gossip/c12704/Sexi_Ellhnes.html | |||
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know. | |||
{{sourcecheck|checked=false}} | |||
Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 06:10, 22 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
== External links modified == | |||
Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
I have just added archive links to {{plural:16|one external link|16 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes: | |||
==Comments== | |||
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://eurovision.ert.gr/el/eurovision-song-contest-2009/nea/00117-o-sakis-roubas-kai-pali-stin-eurovision.htm | |||
This article had to be stubbed back to a version from 2004. All later versions had unsourced claims that were severe ] violations, carried along for over three years, and other serious POV problems. Please re-expand this article, but with scrupulous attention to good sources. ] ] 20:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC) | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100503031033/http://www.myself.gr:80/Article/Sakis-Rouvas-sillogos-Elpida/95-7048.html to http://www.myself.gr/Article/Sakis-Rouvas-sillogos-Elpida/95-7048.html | |||
:The article has since been re-expanded. ] (]) 13:50, 4 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090718203055/http://www.oikotimes.com:80/v2/index.php?file=articles&id=6003 to http://www.oikotimes.com/v2/index.php?file=articles&id=6003 | |||
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://eurovision.ert.gr/el/eurovision-song-contest-2009/nea/00131-synenteyksi-typou-esc-2009.htm | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100613191511/http://www.videomusicawards.gr:80/?page_id=1779 to http://www.videomusicawards.gr/?page_id=1779 | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110215053815/http://www.newsbomb.gr:80/gossip/story/ekleise-emfaniseis-gia-to-pascha-o-sakhs-roybas to http://www.newsbomb.gr/gossip/story/ekleise-emfaniseis-gia-to-pascha-o-sakhs-roybas | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120402121554/http://www.yupi.gr/gossip/c32604/Sakhs_Royvas.html to http://www.yupi.gr/gossip/c32604/Sakhs_Royvas.html | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20111016141005/http://www.yupi.gr:80/gossip/c34846/Sakhs_Royvas_.html to http://www.yupi.gr/gossip/c34846/Sakhs_Royvas_.html | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120310114139/http://www.yupi.gr:80/gossip/c38724/Sakhs_Royvas.html to http://www.yupi.gr/gossip/c38724/Sakhs_Royvas.html | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100106002235/http://www.avopolis.gr:80/greek/albums/default.asp?id=5051 to http://www.avopolis.gr/greek/albums/default.asp?ID=5051 | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110426153205/http://www.yupi.gr:80/gossip/c14456/Oi_Pio_Wraioi_Ellhnes.html to http://www.yupi.gr/gossip/c14456/Oi_Pio_Wraioi_Ellhnes.html | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100706005028/http://www.myself.gr:80/Article/Sakis-loves-gadgets/95-7625.html to http://www.myself.gr/Article/Sakis-loves-gadgets/95-7625.html | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20101112031922/http://ema.mtv.co.uk:80/artists/sakis-rouvas to http://ema.mtv.co.uk/artists/sakis-rouvas | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100428214457/http://www.yupi.gr:80/gossip/c15348/Kwstas_Martakhs.html to http://www.yupi.gr/gossip/c15348/Kwstas_Martakhs.html | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090718203059/http://www.oikotimes.com:80/v2/index.php?file=articles&id=6007 to http://www.oikotimes.com/v2/index.php?file=articles&id=6007 | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20111017153520/http://www.yupi.gr:80/gossip/c34886/Royvas-_Zygoylh.html to http://www.yupi.gr/gossip/c34886/Royvas-_Zygoylh.html | |||
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know. | |||
==Personal life== | |||
The 'personal life' section needs to be cleared from all the ]. ''Espresso news'' is by no means a ]. This is supposed to be an ] article not a gossip column. ] (]) 14:31, 17 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
:Nothing is stopping you from fixing it. ] (]) 15:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
{{sourcecheck|checked=false}} | |||
I tried to fix it (somewhat) based on what was already there. However, it still contains stuff that I have had no means of verifying.] (]) 13:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 10:03, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
...and it was all reverted by Greekstar12 stating 'not gossip, situations that were associated with the artist's life; states when they were confirmed false and ARE SOURCED!' ] rumors IS gossip and have no place in Misplaced Pages. Instead of keeping it out of the article more was added always using the same TABLOID as a 'source'. ''Espresso'' is NOT a ] and using it to make such serious allegations in a ] is a violation of Misplaced Pages policy. ] (]) 12:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
== External links modified == | |||
::Hey, Espresso is NOT a tabloid magazine, it is a daily newspaper that tends to focus more on entertainment, but also on politics. An example of a tabloid in Greece is ''Very Sorry'', the Greek version of the ''National Enquirer'' that rarely publishes anything remotely true. Espresso is a national/government owned newspaper. The newspapers in Greece come in a few different categories, daily, nightly, weekly, and monthly. The ones delivered in the morning are politically-affiliated. The deal with Espresso is that it has no political affiliation (bias to one political party), so it has minimal censorship. There is a gossip '''section''', however, if you look at the ref, it comes from the exclusive section. All of the other sections are news and happenings around Athens. The newspaper focuses mostly on entertainment life, but also on social issues and even politics. For example, they ran the case of the missing Russian boy Alex for months, and that's not gossip. Since there are no newspapers like this in N.America and other parts of the world, so it may be hard to grasp. (Also, the ref is not news, it is a tribute artist bio) | |||
Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
Also, look at ]. You will find Espresso under '''daily political newspapers''', making it an officially approved source. You won't find ''Very Sorry'' (popular tabloid) there or even a tabloid section. Does that prove anything to you? I don't mean any disrespect, and I really appreciate you taking interest in this article, but your edits make you seem like a fan who doesn't want to include anything negative in the artist's article. All artists have had their negative publicity, some is just gossip, while others, such as Rouvas' case is encyclopedic. Censorship does not help the article --I just don't get why everybody freaks out at the mention of suicide. It is a horrible thing, I know, but Rouvas' attempt was huge news in Greece in that era. His mental health was doubted. His own publications have confirmed this. In 2001, Rouvas released a compilation box set from Universal under publishing of Delta Press, ]. The album includes a biography that confirms that the artist claimed to have mental issues (incl.agoraphobia). The Greek independent magazine ''Afisorama'' that dedicates issues to artist bios and interviews have also confirmed these issues about the attempted suicide and military service. Furthermore, your edits did'nt really help because when you took out the info of the drug possession charge, you wrote that the doctor was initially charged. In your edit summary you say wrote what was actually in the reference, but the ref says that the doctor was charged later. That's withholding and changing information to your benefit, which is highly POV. If it will put you at ease, I will get the other two primary refs as well. As for the yacht scandal, Psinakis did an interview on ''Status'' verifying all of the happenings, later even naming his talk show after the T-shirt slogan. | |||
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What has to be kept in mind is that although most rumors come and go, some are a very big component to the artists' career. Ie: the suicide/psychosis was a huge issue at the time and was a recurring topic for months. The drug charge (although false) became a huge public deal, so much so that T-shirts were printed as a common joke, although I never once stated that he was a drug addict, but the stigma itself was huge. I can get more refs, but you have to differentiate between what's gossip and what's were significant accusations and occurrences in the artist's life. ] (]) 22:11, 20 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
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:I think the problem here is not that it isn't sourced well, it's that it's just a little too much. In an article where the subject is notable because of his music, television appearances, etc, his personal life section should just be an overview, not an in depth study of his relationships and other odds and ends. Also I heard something about a relationship of Rouvas with Psinakis or something crazy like that that was a big rumor as well, so I guess while you are finding those sources, look into either confirming or disregarding it. ] (]) 23:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
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::I get what you're saying Grk, but what you have to keep in mind is that some artist's careers are very influenced by their personal lives. I'm sure you may have heard Rouvas being called a phenomenon, and while his record sales and shows obviously formed that image, undoubtedly his personal issues had an influence as well. For example look at ], one of the most successful music artists. Her personal life has had a great influence on her professional life. ]'s bio does not have career and personal sections, however details of his personal life are very heavily worked into the article. I tried not to go on to much about it but it was such a big deal in his career that some say the publicity may have helped the great success of Aima, Dakrya, even though he could not promote it. It was around the time when his success was at its height up to that point and only soared after the incident. As for the relationships, while he has been private about all except two, they have all been scrutinized and play a role in his recognition as a sex symbol. | |||
Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 21:06, 12 January 2017 (UTC) | |||
As for, Psinakis, funny you should mention that because I was about to start the Elias Psinakis article soon. I didn't mention this yet because it's a tricky topic. Although I know the story, it is hard to source and I would definitely need help with how to word it. To get the full picture, one would also have to discuss Psinakis' sexual orientation and personal life. (Btw, this is irrelevant, but I met him and he's a very cool, funny person, lol!) | |||
*Psinakis first saw Rouvas in Corfu. After Rouvas won the Song Festival in 91, that day he and Psinakis were in a car accident then Psinakis asked Rouvas to be his manager, and Rouvas accepted. They soon became best friends and had a very close relationship. | |||
*The rumors are related with Rouvas' military era. The tabloids (Very Sorry esp.) ran the story that Rouvas and Psinakis got married in Holland so Rouvas could bail out of military service. As his fame was rising, many critics wanted for his career to be over. However, the first story would not necessarily mean that either one is homosexual, but was using the excuse for a purpose. So, then, critics began to say that they were married and in love. The marriage/homosexuality rumor was a huge scandal in Rouvas' career although it was never confirmed. Esp in those years, homosexuality was not at all accepted in Greece, so you can imagine the media outrage. The marriage rumor was persistent, although it didn't really fly that well without verifications. | |||
*Then, they started to say that they were in a relationship w/o marriage for a couple of years. All were denied, but the impact was undeniable. This was also sparked by the fact that Rouvas was very private about his personal life and was never in a public relationship, but also when they moved to the US together after the 1997 bi-national concert issue. | |||
*The rumors about Rouvas' sexuality slowed in 2002 when he was in a relationship with Rebecca, and since have decreased, with the rumor being defunct in Greece now after so many years of NO VERIFICATION. | |||
*Satirists often portrayed Rouvas and Psinakis as homosexuals, however, even Psinakis strongly denied the marriage/relationship rumors in 2005 interviews calling it "bullshit" (btw that source is alr in the article) | |||
*Although Rouvas was often accused of being in a relationship with Psinakis, and some called him homosexual, he was never really accused of being a homosexual in general, but being in one relationship with a man. | |||
*NEITHER have ever been confirmed homosexual and the allegations were proven FALSE, however, it is something that has a big stigma on Rouvas' career. | |||
*As for Psinakis, he has denied being gay, although he often makes jokingly sexual comments to both men and women on TV. Many people portray him as being homosexual, and often in Greece they use that as an insult, however he has a daughter born in 1990, and was in a relationship with Julia Alexandratou for 2 yrs (although some say it was real, others fake), so at the MOST, he would be a bisexual. | |||
*Greek media also strongly pushed the story of fighting between Psinakis and Zygouli. In 2005, Psinakis was fired by Rouvas, so no new rumors were ever brought up. Rouvas and Psinakis were estranged for about 2 yrs but reconciled and since 2008 have started work together again. ] (]) 00:41, 21 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
== External links modified == | |||
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Greekstar12 up until yesterday morning the Misplaced Pages ] with regards to ''Espresso'' read 'Political affiliation: none (gossip)'. The only reason that it now reads 'Political affiliation: none (evening press) (entertainment/social issues/gossip)' is that some anonymous IP conveniently altered it yesterday evening. Please do not insult my intelligence. ''Espresso'' is a government owned newspaper???? Not very likely! I find it hard to believe that ''Espresso'' has the same respectability as other daily newspapers e.g. ''Kathimerini'' and ''Ta Nea''. I have not seen you quoting any such respectable sources. I was in Greece at the time but I do not remember hearing about Rouvas' suicide attempt. In any case, what you have used as a source is the Espresso 'show time' website section where the corresponding article makes no mention of its sources when it describes his suicide attempt with such detail(!). Most people would question its reliability. | |||
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Secondly, I am not a major fan of Rouvas but I am a fan of ] and ] policy. I strongly suggest that you read the latter. Your style of writing is nowhere a NPOV and ''Esspresso'' and ''afisorama'' are low quality sources for such serious allegations. I have no means of viewing the afisorama article BUT I have read the ''Esspresso'' one that you initially used as your only source and I will try to demonstrate what I mean by gossip: | |||
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The ''Espresso'' article verbatim says: 'When he moved permanently to Athens, Sakis Rouvas rented a small apartement in Dafni and lived together with an English friend, with who he had a relationship since he was in Corfu'. You have written in wikipedia: 'When he first moved to Athens, Rouvas rented a small apartment in Dafni, Attica where he lived with an ''older'' English woman whom he had been in a relationship with ''since he was in high school'' in Corfu.' Your style of writing is sensationalist to say the least. You have written that Rouvas cheated on Vera Wang with Zygouli for a year and that he got back together with her after he learned that she was pregnant, which are nowhere to be found in the ''Espresso'' link you provided, which incidentally does not mention the years for these events either. | |||
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If I wanted to whitewash Rouvas I would have taken the controversy section out altogether. Regardng the yacht incident, ''Espresso'' mentions that Rouvas and the other guests gave testimony, not that they were charged. If you wanted to include any important controversy, you should have included the Cyprus one. Finally, there is no such thing as 'political union ceremony' in English language; the term is 'civil ceremony'. If Rouvas indeed had one, of which I have not the faintest idea, then he is in fact legally married regardless of whether or not it is recognised by the Greek orthodox church. I will edit accordingly and I suggest that you ''source'' properly any reverts.] (]) 12:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 10:59, 18 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
:Something to take into account Greekstar is that ] is an extremely powerful wiki guideline and can result in the removal of a lot of information just on the assumption that it is not true or not neutral. ] (]) 15:11, 21 March 2009 (UTC) |
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Married?
OK, seeing as how prior to my edits there was a claim that he got married in a civil ceremony (or something) in August/08, I went along with it, but now I am actually starting to doubt this. I never actually heard him say "I got married" or wtv and he also said that marriage was not in his plans for the time being. He could possibly mean that he and Zygouli have not yet had a church ceremony and don't plan to, so as he follows Greek Orthodoxy devoutly, they would not be married by religious standards, however, the marriage would still be legal. Civil ceremonies are often done in Greece with eligitimate children involved, esp. for the reason of surname, but I haven't been able to find a single reliable source to ref this claim. This would be reason enough to remove the claim from the article, but in interviews, etc. Greek media often describes them as being married or they call Zygouli his wife. If anybody knows anything, please help! :S GreekStar12 (talk) 16:50, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
FA/GA review
I think that this article is ready for a FA or GA review, since that'll tell us what needs to be fixed up with it anyway. GreekStar12 (talk) 18:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
- A GA review first would follow the general pattern and will present us with plenty of suggestions so fix up the page. Going straight to an FA review might be overwhelming since its guidelines are much stricter. You may however, wish to do am FA so that you don't do lots of stuff that is okay for a GA, but not for an FA. Either way, the waiting list for reviews is long, so I would suggest adding the page for whichever type of review you wish to take on. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 18:38, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
- Have the items on the to do list to the right been taken care of? That's a quick sign for the reviewer that the article isn't ready, so it should be updated or removed depending on its status. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 18:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
General issues
OK so these are some small things I noticed that often have circular edits or inconsistencies:
- Club/venue/organizations names should not be italicized, they are places, not titles, nor should they be put in quotes.
- Make sure all album/film titles are consistently italicized throughout, and songs in quotes.
- We should translate Greek titles consistently, but only once.
- OK, so this one is all over the place: should translated titles (in brackets) be lower case or all upper case like proper titles?
- Also, should translated (bracket) titles of albums be italicized and ones of songs in quotations, or should they just be left plain since they are only translations?
- Occupations in the infobox, as well as birthdate should not be linked, nor should most things in the lead, since it is a summary of words found in the body; make sure things in the body are only linked once.
- Commas, periods, etc. should be placed inside the end quotation mark. GreekStar12 (talk) 09:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- Title translations should be lowercase because they are not proper nouns. Not sure whether they should be italicized, but they should be in parenthesis(), not brackets. As for occupations being linked, words should only be linked once per section, not per article. Dates and years should not be linked at all. Commas, periods, etc should not be placed inside the end quotation mark as they are not part of the quote. Regarding the last part, there is no "official" way to do it in English grammar, so I tend to use the way that makes the most sense logically. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- BTW periods etc should be placed inside the quotation marks. it's really basic English grammatic rules. GreekStar12 (talk) 06:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Wrong. It's editors choice as proper grammar rules contradict each other. Therefore it should be common sense. Quotations are word for word, so unless the period, comma, etc are part of the quotation, they should be placed outside. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 07:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- BTW periods etc should be placed inside the quotation marks. it's really basic English grammatic rules. GreekStar12 (talk) 06:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Title translations should be lowercase because they are not proper nouns. Not sure whether they should be italicized, but they should be in parenthesis(), not brackets. As for occupations being linked, words should only be linked once per section, not per article. Dates and years should not be linked at all. Commas, periods, etc should not be placed inside the end quotation mark as they are not part of the quote. Regarding the last part, there is no "official" way to do it in English grammar, so I tend to use the way that makes the most sense logically. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Too many wikiprojects
WikiProject Dance: A few Wikipedians have gotten together to make some suggestions about how we might organize data in articles about Dance. Here are some articles they deal with: 18th century dance - 20th century ballet - American folk dance - Ballet comique - Canadian step dance - Country Western Dance International. It's dance moves and competitions, not singers.
WikiProject Gymnastics: Some have formed this collaboration resource and group dedicated to improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of gymnastics, including the organization of information and articles on this topic area. Articles: European Championships, National championships by country, Other notable competitions, Gymnastics routines.
WikiProject Electronic music: This project seeks to categorize, organize and expand articles dealing with electronic music.
WikiProject Rock music: The Rock music WikiProject is a project, created on June 17, 2006, that helps to assemble editors interested in rock subgenres.
WikiProject Television: This is to guide the structure and normalize the standard of articles dealing with the Television medium and television series or other forms of episodic programs.
As you can see, Rouvas fits into none of these projects and they were removed for good reason. If you would like to have them included, please explain why I am "way off". Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:29, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- He is definitely not covered by WikiProject TV, so I have removed his listing. Jrh7925 (talk) 21:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Conflicts
Firstly, there was never any consensus whether the years go back to the front or not. Anyway it's better that they are behind so they can follow the same style as the albums, which is the format suggested by WP:Albums, we can't just use two diff year formats bcuz some user likes the look of it better, what's the point. Secondly, we've had this discussion many times and never reached a conclusion about changing the instruments and occupations. Like for instruments guitar is obvious, used in many shows, acknowledged (theofanous acknowledged it on x factor even lol) and all of the others are sourced. They have been acknowledged by other sources and musicians. For the lead the term musician sums up everything (since he has also written etc), not to mention it sounds more professional for a summary than singer. And as for the professions, they are all notable of him. Like someone who owns 4 businesses (EDO, S, Mariella, and future tv/film company) can definitely be considered a businessman, not to mention it is something unique for musicians of the Greek standard. He is often also credited as a dancer and up until the late 90s when he met Evangelinos he choreographed all of his own shows (that's sourced), and even today, like at the S Club he was credited for being very involved in the choreography, lighting etc (I can also get that source). I don't see how they are not notable of him. GreekStar12 (talk) 13:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
forbes
The reason why Forbes/Time etc puts them in categories is to give them titles, as can also be seen on the American listings. Lazopoulos is only a part time musician and that is not the primary source of influence that he provides, same as Rouvas with acting and hosting. He is the highest ranked of anyone in that category and only one in top 10, so they do have the power to name him as such. Also, forbes is a franchise, so there is no need to mention greek edition in the lead since its already in the body and mentioning celebrity denotes showbiz so there's nothing wrong with saying "in greece" as it is already clarified u r not including scholars and politicians.GreekStar12 (talk) 00:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if he is a "part time musician". A musician is still a musician, whether it be part time or not. He has released albums as a singer, he has written songs, and he has been featured on tracks. A musician is someone who writes, performs, or makes music. He certainly is a musician. Obviously Rouvas' main profession is musician, but saying he is the top musician in this case is misleading. Second, as I understood from the source you initially provided, Forbes only listed the top 10 most influential figures in Greek show business. If they categorized him in a musicians list as well, then the story is different. I don't know that though, since your initial source only spoke about influential figures in showbiz list. I can not find any other sources on Forbes as of right now to check for sure. But if they only provide that one list, my point is that although he is a musician and on the list, they didn't specifically give him the title as "most influential Greek musician". They gave him the title of "third most influential figure in Greek show business" or similar. Of course you could reword it to convey that he was one of the top musicians listed, but the way it is worded now makes it seem like a specific title on a separate list. Greekboy (talk) 01:13, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- I have found another source on the Forbes list, and have added it to the article accordingly. I have also added more details from the ranking. Greekboy (talk) 02:17, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Tag
I move to take off the fan pov tag. The person that added that was just a random user, whose never been here before or ever come back, and he didn't even start a discussion or address specific concerns. Nothing of the sort was even picked up on peer review. The article is well layed out, its only problem is missing some sources on the earlier career sections, all of which is not anything contentious. Anything that could be perceived as controversial/fan pov in the artistic and legacy sections is well sourced and heavily at that.GreekStar12 (talk) 21:21, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- To be honest, there are still just a few issues here and there. I haven't really read the article in full in a while, but some things that jump out at me include statements like For this he received positive attention from American celebrity blogger Perez Hilton, making him the first Greek-born celebrity to achieve this.. You seem to try to use specific wording to elevate Rouvas and get around the fact that Kalomira was also mentioned back in early 2009, since she is technically American born, although a Greek celebrity. Plus if you want to get even more technical, Rouvas in not even the first "Greek-born" celebrity mentioned. For example Tommy Lee is technically Greek born, and has been mentioned many times on his blog, even having his own category. There are also parts that still read fan pov-ish, and are unreferenced completely in some cases, like the MAD VMA part under "Live performance and music videos" section. There also seem to be some minor issues related to WP:Weasel, WP:ALLEGED, and WP:EDITORIAL with phrases/words like "some alleged, many agree, notably" etc. that need to be sorted out. Right now, personally, the whole article seems more of a positive-POV on Rouvas. All though all of it is sourced, I feel that the article would benefit if a more balanced view on Rouvas was presented. Also for the record, the user in the peer review back in 2009 did warn against using language that could violate WP:NPOV, amongst his other concerns. Greekboy (talk) 21:50, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well like I said the peer reviewer said that in general but never addressed anything that specific. Same with the random user who did not provide any reason for the tag, so the concerns could not be addressed. The article definitely needs more sources, especially for the littler/less controversial statements that do not get noticed. I haven't read most of it through in a while either, but I would assume that the biggest problem of the article is the earlier career sections that have remained like that mostly since the article was first expanded. It shouldn't be too hard to remove some random sentences there and try to phrase them better. As for the Kalomira thing that sentence is representative as she is American-born, but I see about Lee so it'll be fixed accordingly. The MAD part is just a summary of awards which are sourced within the body, so those can be moved down too. I see where the part about clean-up comes in but as far as the POV everything is sourced and there is a good amount of negative information, although I am intending to add more. But of course certain sections are to have a more positive POV like the legacy section. That's inevitable, unless you are Hitler lol. So if you have specific negative aspects you would like to add you either have to add it yourself or address specific concerns to me so I can work on finding sources, so write them below if you have any.GreekStar12 (talk) 19:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- So two editors including an FA reviewer found the article to be too positive, but their comments should be ignored because they didn't pick through? I believe their comments were directed at the article as a whole. You say that you haven't read through it in a while so I think before you just remove the tag based on what you think the article's condition is, you should read it over and address not only the outright pov issues, but also the potential issues as well. Grk1011 (talk) 20:32, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- The reviewer warned to be careful, a standard on wikipedia and for whoever else you are talking about it is irrelevant if not on the talk page. Again the article is very well sourced (the more controversial statements) and if one cannot back-up a claim that they feel it is too positive, as I have given you guys the chance here, then that is clearly a sign that it is your own pov than fact. With the exception of the supposed marriage, which is difficult to source, all of the controversial events and some negative opinions have been covered (actions in military, supposed suicide attempt, green line concert, yacht etc) and some of the acheivements are not even fully represented. I specifically asked what negative points etc you felt were unrepresented and there was no response. Anyway an occasional poorly worded sentence is not equivalent to an article being not neutral in the ideas it presents. Seeing as how there was never any comment from the original user and nothing is happening here after so long, I am justified in taking it out. GreekStar12 (talk) 22:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- So two editors including an FA reviewer found the article to be too positive, but their comments should be ignored because they didn't pick through? I believe their comments were directed at the article as a whole. You say that you haven't read through it in a while so I think before you just remove the tag based on what you think the article's condition is, you should read it over and address not only the outright pov issues, but also the potential issues as well. Grk1011 (talk) 20:32, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well like I said the peer reviewer said that in general but never addressed anything that specific. Same with the random user who did not provide any reason for the tag, so the concerns could not be addressed. The article definitely needs more sources, especially for the littler/less controversial statements that do not get noticed. I haven't read most of it through in a while either, but I would assume that the biggest problem of the article is the earlier career sections that have remained like that mostly since the article was first expanded. It shouldn't be too hard to remove some random sentences there and try to phrase them better. As for the Kalomira thing that sentence is representative as she is American-born, but I see about Lee so it'll be fixed accordingly. The MAD part is just a summary of awards which are sourced within the body, so those can be moved down too. I see where the part about clean-up comes in but as far as the POV everything is sourced and there is a good amount of negative information, although I am intending to add more. But of course certain sections are to have a more positive POV like the legacy section. That's inevitable, unless you are Hitler lol. So if you have specific negative aspects you would like to add you either have to add it yourself or address specific concerns to me so I can work on finding sources, so write them below if you have any.GreekStar12 (talk) 19:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Citation overkill
13 cites for one word strikes me as a little overkill. -- œ 05:22, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
- ...and the number of dead links is appalling. Miniapolis 00:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Article Split
I've added a split template to the article, as I think it may be time to explore possibly splitting the article. As it stands, the article is almost 160,000 KB. According to WP:SIZESPLIT, an article should start being considered for splitting at as little as 50,000 KB, and almost certainly at over 100,000 KB. I'm not sure what can/should be split, but maybe one of the "Artistry", "Public image" or "Legacy and influence" sections could be a start? Greekboy (talk) 21:50, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
- Well what specifically did you want to split? The article is long compared to the average article but what remains to be taken out? The obvious ones likes awards, discography etc already exist and in the career section, the individual sections are quite a reasonable length, some are short even. I don't know what you would want to do with the artistry and legacy sections, some of them like the musical section are quite underdeveloped actually. Spin-off articles like one about the 1997 peace concert or influence on popular culture could be done, but I don't see how this would shorten the article by much. Some articles are just long because of the subject, it's not an absolute demand to split. I think it's more important for us to check that individual sections don't get too detailed and long (like focus on an album or ESC, pages which already exist) rather than the overall length.GreekStar12 (talk) 01:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- The issue isn't that it's too detailed, it's that according to Misplaced Pages guidelines, pages should not be so long because it greatly impacts users who may be accessing the page on cell phones or who have slower internet speeds. Grk1011 (talk) 19:00, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
- Well, frankly, that's their problem. Splitting is not an absolute demand, just a suggestion and there are articles over 300 kb. It's pretty common to see articles on even recent musicians that are over 100kb. The reason why I suggested checking that the amount of detail in individual sections is not overkill is because 1) it reads really poorly and 2) it would give us a place to start, moving it to a possibly already existing article, which would also strengthen that article. That's an easier initial step than trying to create an article like "public image of Sakis Rouvas" or whatever. GreekStar12 (talk) 18:09, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
- The issue isn't that it's too detailed, it's that according to Misplaced Pages guidelines, pages should not be so long because it greatly impacts users who may be accessing the page on cell phones or who have slower internet speeds. Grk1011 (talk) 19:00, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Many days of careful copy editing reversed with no discussion
This edit reverted many days of careful copy editing by a member of the Guild of Copy Editors at the request of one of this page's editors, along with many other fixes to citations. The revert also restored a considerable amount of unsourced text and puffery to the article. I encourage the editors who are watching this article to discuss this latest edit and determine whether it should be undone. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- I am going to attempt to merge the positives of the copy edit while removing some of the poorer edits discussed so we can reach a happy medium. I'll try to find time in the coming days. Peace. GreekStar12 (talk) 19:46, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should stop forcing your version in in the meantime, GreekStar12? Your protestation that you do not wish to edit-war as you constantly edit-war your changes in is infuriating. You have done nothing today but edit-war. You've reverted edits from multiple editors and inserted some of the most egregious puffery I've ever seen into the article in the process. I'll give you an opportunity to undo the edit warring you have done today, but will be taking you to WP:EW/N fairly quickly if your misbehaviour does not stop.—Kww(talk) 20:23, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- Really? Perhaps you should stop making destructive (and uninformed) edits and disparaging, condescending remarks to people who are legitimately interested in improving the article, even if it doesn't fit your narrow definition. I've done nothing but try to cooperate with you, only to get short, sarcastic remarks. I politely asked you to not do full reverts, taking out other info, only to find a horribly unrepresentative and highly POV edit to the lead. Forgive me but there's nothing you've specifically pointed out that needs to be changed, you just generalize. As I showed with the FAs none of the stuff you complained about is necessarily inappropriate for a lead (especially when sourced), that's why I asked for specific wording changes/trimming suggestions. Things aren't going to improve with sweeping generalizations and labelling things "terrible". So please don't act as if I'm the one not making attempts to cooperate, I would actually love to get on the same page with other users and have less responsibility for the article (I have very little time). I only regret any copyediting work that may have been deleted, which I'll try to reincorporate, if I can, but the other version of the article was definitely poor. I respect that you are an admin, but you could work on your manners, especially since I've made legitimate communication attempts. GreekStar12 (talk) 23:28, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- I haven't been condescending, GreekStar12, simply blunt: the article that volunteer editors spent months improving is greatly superior to the one you reverted to. My first comment on your talk page gave you detailed examples of why the version you reverted to is terrible, I have invited you to make constructive and neutral edits, and, instead, you simply take steps to ensure that the article praises the subject instead of describing it. The editors from the Guild of Copy Editors came in to work on the article and have greatly improved it. Your response was to undo their efforts and to insult their knowledge of the English language (which, I must point out, is substantially better than your own).—Kww(talk) 01:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- Really? Perhaps you should stop making destructive (and uninformed) edits and disparaging, condescending remarks to people who are legitimately interested in improving the article, even if it doesn't fit your narrow definition. I've done nothing but try to cooperate with you, only to get short, sarcastic remarks. I politely asked you to not do full reverts, taking out other info, only to find a horribly unrepresentative and highly POV edit to the lead. Forgive me but there's nothing you've specifically pointed out that needs to be changed, you just generalize. As I showed with the FAs none of the stuff you complained about is necessarily inappropriate for a lead (especially when sourced), that's why I asked for specific wording changes/trimming suggestions. Things aren't going to improve with sweeping generalizations and labelling things "terrible". So please don't act as if I'm the one not making attempts to cooperate, I would actually love to get on the same page with other users and have less responsibility for the article (I have very little time). I only regret any copyediting work that may have been deleted, which I'll try to reincorporate, if I can, but the other version of the article was definitely poor. I respect that you are an admin, but you could work on your manners, especially since I've made legitimate communication attempts. GreekStar12 (talk) 23:28, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should stop forcing your version in in the meantime, GreekStar12? Your protestation that you do not wish to edit-war as you constantly edit-war your changes in is infuriating. You have done nothing today but edit-war. You've reverted edits from multiple editors and inserted some of the most egregious puffery I've ever seen into the article in the process. I'll give you an opportunity to undo the edit warring you have done today, but will be taking you to WP:EW/N fairly quickly if your misbehaviour does not stop.—Kww(talk) 20:23, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- I am going to attempt to merge the positives of the copy edit while removing some of the poorer edits discussed so we can reach a happy medium. I'll try to find time in the coming days. Peace. GreekStar12 (talk) 19:46, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Personal life section
Wouldn't it be better the personal life of Rouvas with Zygouli and the birth of their three children to be separated from the career sections and moved to a personal life section? Why are career and personal life mixed together? TeamGale 02:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- I didn't get any answer on this for almost 20 days so I moved on and did it myself. A personal life section was necessary on the article instead of the personal information being lost in the long career sections. Hope it's OK. TeamGale 10:40, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121003133501/http://www.mad.tv/section/news/44442/news/ to http://www.mad.tv/section/news/44442/news/
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