| Revision as of 07:08, 25 March 2009 editTheserialcomma (talk | contribs)3,804 edits →Regarding the attempted POV change in the lede to state that a firearm is a "tool," not a weapon.: r← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 23:26, 3 July 2024 edit undoSwatjester (talk | contribs)Administrators27,342 edits →Needs major cleanup | ||
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| == Firearm description not correct == | |||
| This articles clearly needs to be broken into separate small arms and artillery pages. Also, there is a lot of necessary info in the articles "trigger", "ammunition", and "action" etc that are repeated here. I think a new overall topology along these lines is in order: | |||
| Description of "firearm" is not correct, although citation is correct it is out of context and applies to prohibited or | |||
| *Guns (or whatever; on this page you would choose between artillery and small arms, so discussion of artillery and howitzers etc doesn't take up so much room in the firearms article) | |||
| controlled types of firearms. The better description is | |||
| ***Firearms (mainly to focus on the histroy and different major forms of firearms; this would be a summary version of the current "firearm" page, a lot like the current one minus the following, which it will clearly link to) | |||
| https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions#:~:text=The%20term%20%E2%80%9CFirearm%E2%80%9D%20means%3A,muffler%20or%20firearm%20silencer%3B%20or | |||
| *****Firearms: loading mechanism (currently called "firearms action", this deserves its own page since it's a sizable and esoteric topic; this article would absorb pages like "gas operation" and "recoil operation") | |||
| Namely anything that can shoot a projectile by explosive means and is clarified to include the frame or receiver even if there is no barrel ] (]) 20:25, 22 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *****Firearms: firing mechanism (currently called "trigger", which isn't really an appropriate name and again, a sizable and esoteric topic; to absorb a myriad of articles like "percussion cap", "wheellock", "cap lock", sear, etc) | |||
| :] '''Not done for now:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. <!-- Template:ECOI --> ] (]) 21:59, 22 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *****Firearms: ammunition | |||
| ::specified text should be replaced by | |||
| ::The term “firearm” is defined at 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) as: | |||
| ::Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; | |||
| ::The frame or receiver of any such weapon. Any firearm muffler or firearm silencer. Any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm. ] (]) 01:46, 23 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Text on Page should be replaced by | |||
| The term “firearm” is defined at 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) as: | |||
| ...and so forth. That will clean up the firearms article, which can then become a little more scholarly. Any objections? I'm going to start if there are no protests.] 03:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; | |||
| :Firearms is a more general category than guns, which constitute a subclass of firearms. It would be useful to use separate articles for ''detail'' on such topics as ammunition, etc., but it is important that the high-level article give a top-level description of such components; the reader should be able to comprehend what is being said from the text on the main page alone, without having to look things up in other windows/tabs. — ] 07:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The frame or receiver of any such weapon. | |||
| ==Need a Reference?== | |||
| Any firearm muffler or firearm silencer. | |||
| I've only got one with me on hand, but its pretty broad and extensive. If you care for me to insert it in here, let me know. Otherwise, I'll stay out. ] 17:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 01:45, 23 February 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| : |
:Misplaced Pages is global. Any definition we use must also be global, not just an American one. ] (]) 02:12, 23 February 2023 (UTC) | ||
| ::I mean we could attribute it , maybe not just as the sole definition, we could include other definitions as well. As long as all are attributed. ] (]) 19:55, 21 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2023 == | |||
| == Anatomy diagrams? == | |||
| {{edit semi-protected|Firearm|answered=yes}} | |||
| This article uses a lot of terminology which is tough for a non-expert to put together with physical reality. It seems like a few annotated illustrations would go a long way toward more thoroughly explaining what the pieces of various firearms are. Maybe there needs to be a separate article for Firearm terminology (which is *not* the same as the Firearms:Terminology category)? <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 23:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> | |||
| The current definition stated is closer to "Small Arms" not a firearm. | |||
| Change: A firearm is any type of gun designed to be readily carried and used by an individual | |||
| == Disambiguation == | |||
| To: A firearm is a weapon which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. ] (]) 23:42, 2 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| We already have Firearms the computer game and ] the comic book. Time for a disambiguation page?? | |||
| :] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> I agree with you, but it appears the {{em|entire article}} is written with that definition of firearm, despite the fact at least one of the three cited sources contradict it. I suggest you open a ] instead. ] (]) 00:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Incorrect credit given to author of law == | |||
| ] 19:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Article states: “This is the ATF definition of a title II "NFA firearm", as defined by the National Firearms Act” | |||
| == Top photo == | |||
| BATFE did not author or pass the National Firearms act, the United States Congress did. BATFE has no constitutional authority to pass laws or create legal definitions ] (]) 18:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Why was the photo of a collection of different kinds of rifles replaced by a photo of a Glock 22? — ] 15:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==Wiki Education assignment: Technology and Culture== | |||
| {{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Purdue/Technology_and_Culture_(Fall_2023) | assignments = ] | reviewers = ] | start_date = 2023-08-21 | end_date = 2023-12-15 }} | |||
| <span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 05:33, 12 December 2023 (UTC)</span> | |||
| == Legal Issues == | |||
| == Needs major cleanup == | |||
| Even the page on spud huns has a section that discusses the legality of such weapons. So why does a much more earnest article such as this lack the afore-mentioned section? ] 17:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Huge swaths of this article have uncited claims which is bad enough to merit a cleanup, but, worse, some sections are unreadable to a person (like me) who just wants an encyclopedic article on "firearms". It feels like people had certain bits of information they wanted known and didn't have the time to make it relevant for the article or even to put it in the correct location. For example, the very first section, '''Types''' starts out okay mentioning ''heavy'' and ''light'' weapons, but soon gets derailed by a list of the top firearms manufacturers and how many firearms exist in the world and who owns them, with no reference to type of firearms. That ignominious introduction is followed by a list of the most notable types of firearms, which could have been useful, but gets bogged down repeatedly in the weeds of ever finer distinctions. Consider this paragraph in the section '''Types''', subsection '''Long guns''', subsubsection '''sniper rifles''': | |||
| The laws vary so widely, and change so often, that not much can be said about the matter within the article. Why do we need to say anything more than the small amount already present? Are you worried about liability, or what? — ] 18:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Examples of sniper and scout rifles include the ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and ]. Examples of anti-materiel and anti-tank rifles include the ], ], ], ], ], and ]. Examples of designated marksman rifles include the ], ], ], ], ], and ]. | |||
| == Proposed merge == | |||
| That entire paragraph can be removed since the preceding text already gives an example of a "sniper rifle" and includes a link to the main article on ]. In fact, I would suggest that the '''Long guns''' subsection shouldn't have ''any'' sub-subsections at all; just include a short summary as was done for '''Hand guns'''. When people want to delve deeper into the nitty gritty, they can read the ] article. Let this article be about the general term '''Firearms''', not all these specifics. ] (]) 18:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| DISAGREE - Someone has proposed to merge ] into ], but I don't think that's a good idea. ] 17:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :What information about Firearms are you attempting to find in the article that isn't there? ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| DISAGREE - That would just be clutter! It wouldn't hurt to have a ''link'' to the ] article, however. — ] 18:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == NaviBlock Firearm == | |||
| To whom it may concern: If you compare to other top rated articles you will find, that NaviBlock's are part of them. To generally increase article quality in the firearms section this would help - like the infoboxes also do. Tom --] (]) 12:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| : Just to explain it better - here (Category:Weapon navigational boxes ) i miss the template: 'Firearm' or 'Handgun'. I do not dare to introduce that. --] (]) 13:01, 15 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Arquebus? == | |||
| Hello, I just added an illustration of a French gunner from the 15th century to the ''Background'' section that I got from a public domain history encyclopedia. Based upon the location and time period I'd assume it's an arquebus that he has shouldered and is lighting, but I'm not confident enough of that to make the ID myself. If anyone wants to update the image caption feel free. --''']''' 08:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Turkish cannon is NOT muzzle loading== | |||
| That is why it is TWO parts. The breach is loaded and then screwed on to the barrel. Heat from the explosion limited the ability to unscrew the gun and reload.] (]) 21:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == False breeching == | |||
| Hi. ] is (about to be) a disambiguation page. ] now is a redlink. Perhaps it should be a redirect to ]? --] (]) 16:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Unless I'm mistaken, this isn't a term used in firearms. A 'false breech', IIRC, is a plate used as a proofing tool to ensure firearm barrels were safe... maybe before further finishing. Better to identify a problem with the barrel halfway into the process than at the end. I don't know why it's even on the disambig page unless my 50-odd years of firearms experience was inadequate... shouldn't I have heard the term before now? Okay, maybe I have heard the term 'false breech' in regards to double-barreled shotguns... it's a bridge on the receiver that aids in sight alignment... gives the shooter the impression that there is a round breech at the rear of the barrels where one would be on a single shot. Still, that's '''false breech''' not '''breeching'''. Even then, it would only apply narrowly to an obscure design feature on Side-by-Side shotguns. --] (]) 17:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Searching for images of "false breeching", meaning the strap between shafts of a cart, I found some links to pages about weapons, including a book on Google Books that has a chapter on "false breeching and jointing locks". In some other books, false breeching is a synonym for "break-off". See also ; on Google Books, most hits are to ] books on small arms. It appears the equestrian sense is fairly recent, because this term is largely absent from the many equestrian books on Google Books. --] (]) 18:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :The term is not 'false breeching' it is, 'false breech'. It is a design feature, not an action. If there's mention needed in an article on side-by-side firearms {]), then it needs to be no more than a sentence. I don't see the need for a disambig statement nor a separate article. I read the google books references, nearly all of them used the term 'false breech'. --] (]) 18:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Regardless of what usage is more common or preferred, the term "false breeching" does occur in the books I cited. That is why I made ] a disambiguation page. It is not necessary that all entries on a disambiguation page link to separate articles, but it is helpful to explain each entry ''somewhere''. The explanation can be as simple as a link to Wiktionary, or a section in a larger article. --] (]) 18:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :I think I understand your point, but there are two different terms. While 'false breeching' does occur, it appears to be a mere form of the term 'false breech' and should reflect that in the disambig page. My position is that the term 'false breech' is archaic, perhaps, and not used to any degree I know of these days. Therefore, it does not merit a separate article or even anything but passing mention in any regular article. --] (]) 18:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::One or the other term will be used in history sections of some articles, correct? Or for an article on 19th C firearms. Back to my original question: what article or article section should the entry on ] link to now? --] (]) 19:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Perhaps I'm not making myself clear enough. A '''false breech''' is a thing, not an action. '''False breeching''' should not link to any firearm related article. If you want to disambig the term false breech, redirect it to ]. --] (]) 19:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Nukes4Tots, do you mean "false breeching" in the context of firearms should be suppressed, as somehow incorrect? --] (]) 21:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::It doesn't sound like he is trying to censor you, only that you might be putting undue weight on a term that isn't regularly used by, well, by anybody. I did a google search for the term and came up with four hits in relation to firearms, all appeared to be OCR scans of, well, the SAME BOOK. That is quite obscure any way you look at it. It's odd that you cry "suppression" so soon in the discussion. He is just wanting you to justify an article or section in an article for something that shows up once on the internet. One hit does not an article make. I will make the counter argument that, uh, why are you trying to put undue weight on this term? It does not seem to warrant inclusion just from the point of not being ]. --] (]) 01:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::I want to fix incoming links to ]; to do that, I need somewhere to send the links that do not concern false breeching on animal carts. I found "false breeching" in multiple Misplaced Pages articles about firearms and other weapons. My question was about content, not user behavior: does Nukes4Tots think "false breeching" is a misstatement of "false breech"? On Google Books, "false breeching" returns 36 hits, mostly 19th Century books. Here are some of them in context: | |||
| :::*(technique) ''ON FALSE BREECHING AND JOINTING LOCKS. As this is but a mechanical operation, requiring little except good workmanship, but few observations are necessary'' | |||
| :::*(technique) ''The operations of false breeching, jointing locks, stocking, &c., are merely mechanical ; requiring, certainly, great skill and ability, but yet involving '' | |||
| :::*(thing) ''The screw which, passing through the trigger-plate and stock, secures the break-off, or false breeching.'' | |||
| :::*(thing) ''BREAK-OFF, OR FALSE BREECHING. — The piece of metal made fast to the stock by the cross-pin, into which the hooks of the breeches must be inserted before'' | |||
| :::*(thing) ''The mechanical names for the remaining principal parts of a gun are : " False-breeching ," where the ends of the breechings hook in, before the barrels'' | |||
| :::*(thing) ''False Breeching — The part where the nose of the breechings hook in, before the barrels can be laid in the stock.'' | |||
| :::Those books are on Google Books because they are out of copyright protection; Google is extremely search biased. What are reliable sources for gunsmithing and weapons in general? Aren't there any relevant encyclopedias or dictionaries? --] (]) 06:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::A term that hasn't been used in literature in over 100 years... Only one book that I can see used it in terms of firearms. Hmm. Well, whatever dude. --] (]) 14:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Regarding the attempted POV change in the lede to state that a firearm is a "tool," not a weapon. == | |||
| I am reverting back to the version that states a firearm is a weapon due to fact that various dictionaries don't support such an assertion. e.g. | |||
| *http://www.answers.com/topic/firearm: "n. A weapon, especially a pistol or rifle, capable of firing a projectile and using an explosive charge as a propellant." | |||
| *http://www.dictionary.net/firearm: Firearm \Fire"arm`\, n. A gun, pistol, or any weapon from a shot is discharged by the force of an explosive substance, as gunpowder. | |||
| *http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/firearm: a weapon from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder —usually used of small arms | |||
| ] (]) 05:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Listen, if you're going to hound me and follow me to every article I edit, please pick your battles well. This is one you're going to lose. First, you LIE by assigning something to me that I did not say. I didn't say a firearm was not a weapon, I said it was a tool that may be used as a weapon. Heck, a piece of paper can be used as a weapon. Don't quote the dictionary, either. Please, Drop the stick. --] (]) 06:24, 25 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::: makes you appear ... unbalanced, to put it mildly. perhaps you wish to rephrase your comment so that it has anything to do with the changes that i've proposed? also, 'status quo' is not a valid argument. if something is wrong, it gets changed, regardless of the status quo. if the dictionary definition of firearm is universally 'a weapon,' then you cannot insert your own POV and make it into a 'tool.' of course it's a tool - everything can be considered a tool by the vaguest definitions. but a firearm is a specific type of tool called a weapon. if you don't believe me, check the dictionary. i've given three links to definitions above. 'status quo' is no excuse for edit warring. find some reliable sources or dictionary definitions that support your assertion, but don't argue 'status quo,' don't make personal attacks, and don't use uncivil language. you know i'll report you, and it won't be worth the effort for either of us, so don't bother pushing it. just find some sources that support your claims or back off. ] (]) 07:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 23:26, 3 July 2024
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 | The contents of the Firearm as a blunt weapon page were merged into Firearm on 13 August 2022. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
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Firearm description not correct
Description of "firearm" is not correct, although citation is correct it is out of context and applies to prohibited or controlled types of firearms. The better description is https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions#:~:text=The%20term%20%E2%80%9CFirearm%E2%80%9D%20means%3A,muffler%20or%20firearm%20silencer%3B%20or Namely anything that can shoot a projectile by explosive means and is clarified to include the frame or receiver even if there is no barrel Pedia932 (talk) 20:25, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Not done for now: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:59, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
- specified text should be replaced by
- The term “firearm” is defined at 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) as:
- Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
- The frame or receiver of any such weapon. Any firearm muffler or firearm silencer. Any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm. Pedia932 (talk) 01:46, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Text on Page should be replaced by
The term “firearm” is defined at 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) as:
Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
The frame or receiver of any such weapon. Any firearm muffler or firearm silencer. Any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pedia932 (talk • contribs) 01:45, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is global. Any definition we use must also be global, not just an American one. HiLo48 (talk) 02:12, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- I mean we could attribute it , maybe not just as the sole definition, we could include other definitions as well. As long as all are attributed. TomaHawk61 (talk) 19:55, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2023
 | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The current definition stated is closer to "Small Arms" not a firearm.
Change: A firearm is any type of gun designed to be readily carried and used by an individual
To: A firearm is a weapon which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. 73.126.57.180 (talk) 23:42, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- Not done: I agree with you, but it appears the entire article is written with that definition of firearm, despite the fact at least one of the three cited sources contradict it. I suggest you open a requested move instead. Snowmanonahoe (talk) 00:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Incorrect credit given to author of law
Article states: “This is the ATF definition of a title II "NFA firearm", as defined by the National Firearms Act”
BATFE did not author or pass the National Firearms act, the United States Congress did. BATFE has no constitutional authority to pass laws or create legal definitions 2600:6C63:43F0:400:BC26:EAFC:9C0E:1849 (talk) 18:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Wiki Education assignment: Technology and Culture
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Andretam0027 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Straws12!.
— Assignment last updated by Thecanyon (talk) 05:33, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
Needs major cleanup
Huge swaths of this article have uncited claims which is bad enough to merit a cleanup, but, worse, some sections are unreadable to a person (like me) who just wants an encyclopedic article on "firearms". It feels like people had certain bits of information they wanted known and didn't have the time to make it relevant for the article or even to put it in the correct location. For example, the very first section, Types starts out okay mentioning heavy and light weapons, but soon gets derailed by a list of the top firearms manufacturers and how many firearms exist in the world and who owns them, with no reference to type of firearms. That ignominious introduction is followed by a list of the most notable types of firearms, which could have been useful, but gets bogged down repeatedly in the weeds of ever finer distinctions. Consider this paragraph in the section Types, subsection Long guns, subsubsection sniper rifles:
Examples of sniper and scout rifles include the M40 rifle, Heckler & Koch PSG1, Walther WA 2000, Accuracy International AWM, M24 Sniper Weapon System, Steyr Scout, Sako TRG, and CheyTac Intervention. Examples of anti-materiel and anti-tank rifles include the Mauser Tankgewehr M1918, Boys anti-tank rifle, PTRS-41, Barrett M82, Gepárd anti-materiel rifle, and McMillan TAC-50. Examples of designated marksman rifles include the SVD, SR-25, Dragunov SVU, Marine Scout Sniper Rifle, Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle, and M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System.
That entire paragraph can be removed since the preceding text already gives an example of a "sniper rifle" and includes a link to the main article on Sniper Rifles. In fact, I would suggest that the Long guns subsection shouldn't have any sub-subsections at all; just include a short summary as was done for Hand guns. When people want to delve deeper into the nitty gritty, they can read the Long gun article. Let this article be about the general term Firearms, not all these specifics. 24.16.239.30 (talk) 18:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- What information about Firearms are you attempting to find in the article that isn't there? ⇒SWATJester 23:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
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