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Revision as of 01:50, 9 April 2009 editKP Botany (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,588 edits →Because you're not looking for it: it's on article not on pseudoscience that are problematic← Previous edit Latest revision as of 00:00, 25 December 2024 edit undoMediaWiki message delivery (talk | contribs)Bots3,133,069 edits →The Signpost: 24 December 2024: new sectionTag: MassMessage delivery 
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| <center><math>\star</math>&nbsp;&nbsp;'''Some principles governing this talk page'''&nbsp;&nbsp;<math>\star</math></center><br>
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<center>Please observe ] and ] here. This talk page is my territory, and I assume janitorial responsibility for it. I may, without notice, ] comments to put like with like, correct indents, or retitle sections to reflect their contents more clearly. While I reserve the right to delete comments, I am normally opposed to doing so and use archives instead. If I inadvertently change the meaning, please contact me! When all else fails, check the edit history. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> (<b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b>)</center>
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|<center><math>\star</math>&nbsp;&nbsp;'''Regarding posting (or reposting) of my personal info at Misplaced Pages'''&nbsp;&nbsp;<math>\star</math></center><br>
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<center><math>\star</math>&nbsp;&nbsp;'''DON'T DO IT!!'''&nbsp;&nbsp;<math>\star</math></center><br>
{{Press
<center>Lately I have become more sensitive to the ] about myself here at Misplaced Pages. I am the target of ] and ] from some pretty unbalanced people and regularly receive threats (including occasional death threats). While I don't normally have any reason to hide my true identity, any past revealings by myself on or off wiki should not be construed by others as license to do it here at Misplaced Pages, where only my "]" tag should be used. My personal identity and activities off wiki should be kept separate from my user name and activities on wiki. While such revealings here have often been done innocently, I still reserve the right to delete such personal information posted here at Misplaced Pages by others. My own and my family's security is at stake here, and I would appreciate support in this matter. Thanks. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> (<b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b>)</center>
| subject2 = article
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| author2 = Ashe Schow
{{mbox
| title2 = Misplaced Pages founder advocates for updating policies following 'The Hunting Ground' controversy
| type = content
| org2 = '']''
| text = '''Archives:''' ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]
| url2 = https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wikipedia-founder-advocates-for-updating-policies-following-the-hunting-ground-controversy
}}
| date2 = November 25, 2015
== Stuff.... ==
| quote2 = Another editor, whose username is BullRangifer, suggested Misplaced Pages not become "a kangaroo court or lynching" by rushing to ban accounts who break COI. BullRangifer suggested following seven steps to determine whether "The Hunting Ground" crew member should be banned and whether his edits should be removed. Some of the steps included how he handled questions related to his edits and whether he stuck to discussion pages to ask for edits rather than making them himself.
| accessdate2 = February 8, 2020
| subject3 = article
| author3 = Marcus Gilmer
| title3 = Misplaced Pages demotes Breitbart to fake news
| org3 = ]
| url3 = https://mashable.com/article/wikipedia-breitbart-ban-fake-news/
| date3 = October 3, 2018
| quote3 = Support. If anything, it's even more unreliable than the Daily Mail, as they at least use trained journalists, whereas Breitbart is a fringe propaganda organization which lets its extreme partisan bias get in the way of how it reports things, and whether it does so, just as Fox News does. It too should be deprecated, but let's start with Breitbart (and InfoWars). — BullRangifer 17:51, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
| accessdate3 = October 5, 2018
| subject4 = article
| author4 = Alexander Hall
| title4 = Report: Misplaced Pages Editors Censoring Evidence Supporting Michael Flynn
| org4 = ]
| url4 = https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/techwatch/alexander-hall/2020/08/13/report-wikipedia-editors-censoring-evidence-supporting
| date4 = August 13, 2020
| quote4 = Liberal user Valjean responded by condemning this revelation as 'conspiracy theories' and 'part of a cover-up,' even 'when it comes from the now-sitting government of the USA.' Valjean specified that 'Nothing coming from Trump's Justice Department, FBI, CIA, anything, can be trusted.' Breitbart alleged that Valjean, formerly under the name 'BullRangifer' has been 'previously involved in slanting articles about the Russia investigation.'
| accessdate4 = August 15, 2020
| subject5 = article
| author5 = Raymond Sturman
| title5 = Top 5 Editing Conflicts in Misplaced Pages Pages on Religion
| org5 = World Religion News
| url5 = https://www.worldreligionnews.com/wikipedia/top-5-editing-conflicts-in-wikipedia-pages-on-religion/
| date5 = October 23, 2024
| quote5 = Located on the Catholic Church Misplaced Pages talk page, the screenshot below details a recent discussion of the tension between the Roman Catholic Church and other branches of Catholicism. Editor 'Valjean' is protesting that the word 'Roman' has been removed from the title, arguing that there are other branches of Catholicism, while the Roman Catholic Church says it is the real Catholic Church.
| accessdate5 = October 24, 2024
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<!-- {{semi-retired|Some may have noticed that my activity level isn't anywhere near what it used to be. Well, being a Misplaced Pages editor is just not that much fun anymore.


Wikilawyering has become a fine art that's exploited by partisan POV pushers and, predominantly right-wing, paid political whitewashers (the Koch brothers control many articles), and NPOV is pretty much impossible to maintain on such articles. It's not worth the effort (which is more like a battle), so a lot of the time I now avoid such conflict zones.
; ]


Fixing commas and grammar is pretty uncontroversial. It's a shame that talent, knowledge and experience are wasted. Experienced editors get burned out, and there is not an endless supply of such editors, so Misplaced Pages is bleeding. Until the community does something to rectify this situation, it will lose out on such talent and the editing pool will become more and more dominated by political hacks and amateur jerks.}} -->
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* , especially the "Legal and Regulatory Matters" section
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== Mail ==
; Block and unblock of a POV pusher:


{{You’ve got mail}} ] (]) 23:33, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
:* "unblock-un reviewed|Ok, so I seem to have been blocked for having an inappropriate name. I apologise profusely for this, I didn't realise at the time of creating this account that it could be taken offensively. So i would like to keep my edits etc, as I have put a lot of effort and time into edits I have made. I suggest the username 'Acromantula'|2=] is taken; please consult ] to search for usernames to find one that isn't taken. While we're on it, if you username had been available I would be rather hesitant to unblock you. Yes, your username is (somewhat) offensive... but you were really blocked because you are ]. Admins are generally hesitant to block for POV pushing, because it's a judgment call. But I'm firm in my judgment, that's what you were doing. No one has been buying your argument that the Cold reading article should say that it is only "claimed" that people use cold reading. Your basis of argument is your own beliefs, rather than external factors like sources. And you continue to hammer the same points regardless of how many people have opposed them. In other words, you lost the argument and you should stop; it's crossing the threshold into disruption. So, if you find an available username I'm willing to unblock, and view this block as only about your username, but this POV-pushing behavior is a serious problem and if you don't address it you'll soon be blocked again. ]]<sup>]</sup> 16:11, 20 February 2009 (UTC) ''''


== Administrators' newsletter – September 2024 ==
:* Promises to reform: ''"unblock-un|Then how is the name 'machomonkey'? And i apologise if you dislike my edits, yet i have felt that they are biased towards the oppposite viewpoint. What I have done is not right, admittedly, although it is no worse than what has been done by others. If that is what is required, I shall change my ways."'' , but the edit summary says otherwise: ''"contested block and provided new name"''


] from the past month (August 2024).
:* Name changed from ] (monkey dick) to ]


<div style="display: flex; flex-wrap: wrap">
; A prof:
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] '''Administrator changes'''
* "As a professionally qualified, licensed homeopathic doctor, it was irritating for me when my patients quoted from wikipedia - and when I read the article, I realised that every statement was criticised, unlike osteopathy, chiropractic etc." ]
:] ]


] '''Interface administrator changes'''
; ]: Feel free to comment. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 07:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
:] ]


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; ]
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]
: A collection of spinal manipulation research abstracts, news reports and other commentaries, with special emphasis on risks, plus some other interesting sources. Some sources on the related subjects of Chiropractic, Physical Therapy, Osteopathic medicine, and Osteopathy are also included. Some are of purely historical interest and others present the latest evidence. They are kept here as a resource for editing articles. This list is far from exhaustive. It is currently organized by year, for lack of a better system, which has the immediate benefit of helping to avoid duplication.


] '''Oversighter changes'''
: If you have any additional sources, suggestions for improvement or personal comments, please use the talk page. Thanks. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b>
:] ]


] '''CheckUser changes'''
;
:] {{hlist|class=inline
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|]
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</div>
; ]: Excellent tips and tricks.
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] '''Guideline and policy news'''
; Straight version of chiropractic article
* Following an ], there is a new ]: ], which {{tq|applies to unused maintenance categories, such as empty dated maintenance categories for dates in the past}}.
* A ] is open to discuss whether ] should be adopted as a ].


] '''Arbitration'''
: made of the existing ] article, leaving us with a version as only a very typical and truly deluded straight chiropractor could wish it. A very interesting object for study of the straight chiropractic mind. Believe it or not, this is classic chiropractic in 2008! Seeing this type of ignorance might be considered unbelievable to most, but for those who study the chiropractic profession, this is quite a common phenomenon. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 04:45, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
* Following a ], ] (the topic and interaction bans on ], respectively) were repealed.
* ] of the ] ("{{noping|Cinderella157}} German history topic ban") was ] for a period of six months.
* The arbitration case ] is currently open. Proposed decision is expected by 3 September 2024 for this case.


] '''Miscellaneous'''
; Templates:
* Editors can now enter into ], an alternative for informal '']'' arrangements, to have a ] reviewed in return for reviewing a different editor's nomination.
* ]
* A ] is happening in September 2024 to reduce the number of unreviewed articles and redirects in the ]. Currently, there is a backlog of over 13,900 articles and 26,200 redirects awaiting review. ]
* ]
:* <nowiki>{{User:Fyslee/Template vandalism}}</nowiki>
* ]
* ]
:* <nowiki>{{User:Fyslee/Background}}</nowiki>


----
; Created ]
{{center|{{flatlist|
: Done. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 04:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
* ]
* ]
* ]
}}}}
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== ''The Signpost'': 4 September 2024 ==
; Subpages


<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-09-04}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 12--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 13:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>
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== That was kind of sweet ==
; Music groups: ] (article), ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]


''""'' ] (]) 07:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
; Musicians: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]
: Ah! The ] situation. I have forgotten most of it, so had to look again. I hope she feels justice was finally done here. I still believe we should allow mention of the controversy over Misplaced Pages's failure. We normally do it as it's clearly notable enough for mention. Our added failure to even mention it is a clear case of censorship to protect Misplaced Pages's reputation, and that's just wrong. In one breath we have a policy that says Misplaced Pages is ], and in the next we actually censor it for the worst possible reason. That example makes me ashamed to be a wikipedian. Consensus can be wrong.
: What is that Twitter moment she mentions? Do you have info on that or a link to a tweet? https://x.com/emilymandel -- ] (]) (PING me) 18:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
::My reading is when she tweeted "Interview me please!" and ''Slate'' said "". ] (]) 19:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
::: That makes sense. It worked. -- ] (]) (PING me) 20:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)


== Tim Ferriss ==
; It's all about our ]


Hi Valjean, I'm working to update ]'s page with details about his philanthropic work in the field of psychedelic research. I see that you're a member of ], so I hope that you will consider implementing my ]. I would love your help. Thank you! ] (]) 14:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
: Let's start with a quote from ], a great musician and entertainer:


== Notification ==
:* ''"As for me, if I'd have known better, I'd have done better. It's all been lessons, and everybody's got their lessons to learn. I'm trying my best, and I'm certainly trying to learn from my mistakes. But I'd like to thank all the people that fucked me, because it's been quite an education."''


See ]. ] (]) 18:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
: It's all about one's ]. None of us is perfect or fully understands Misplaced Pages. We've got to learn from our mistakes and improve. An editor's collaborative potential and redeemability should be judged by their Wikipedian learning curve, not by exceptional and occasional displays of human frailty, that are then blown out of proportion and even distorted by their antagonists. Do they occasionally "cross the line" when under fire, which is quite human, or do they operate on the other side of the line most of the time, finding incivility and the personal attack mode to be their natural element? A look at the totality of an editor's contributions is essential before making judgments. A positive learning curve is what it's all about. - ]


== Destiny (streamer) revert ==
== ] ==


@]Can you elaborate on why Fox News is not credible but other outlets are? Destiny made very extreme remarks regarding the Trump assassination attempt as clearly stated in a Piers Morgan: Uncensored episode. Are you suggesting I include the YouTube video as a source as well? {{User:Brenr/signature/raw|17:09, September 21, 2024 (UTC)}} {{User:Brenr/signature/raw|17:09, September 21, 2024 (UTC)}} 17:09, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Thought you'd want to know I've asked for a finding related to you to be amended. ] (]) 14:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
:@] I've adjusted the source to YouTube. Let's not revert that. I can find additional sources so it's incompliance with Misplaced Pages's standards. {{User:Brenr/signature/raw|17:14, September 21, 2024 (UTC)}}
:: Why do you even ask such a question? Are you unaware of the extreme biases of Fox News and how it broadcasts falsehoods and deception all the time? We limit its use, especially regarding BLP assertions. If Destiny is really far-left, then there will be multiple mainstream RS that say so. The article already includes multiple descriptions of Destiny's political views. Your YouTube primary source isn't good either. It doesn't even describe him as far-left. You need multiple mainstream, secondary, RS that say it. This is BLP stuff, so we're very careful and delete immediately until better sourcing is provided. -- ] (]) (PING me) 17:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
:::A YouTube video '''is''' an original source, which is sufficient. A valid source doesn't need to be one that is from a publisher with a pundit who describes him as extreme. He has demonstrated that by his own words, which is absolutely sufficient as a source. Also, where are you getting this idea that left-wing media outlets would publish articles claiming Destiny is far left when the outlets themselves have a left leaning? {{User:Brenr/signature/raw|17:30, September 21, 2024 (UTC)}}
:::: YouTube is a primary source we are cautious about using, especially for BLP claims. I use it to back up what RS already say. That's a legitimate use of primary sources. That he might express views that are typically far-left isn't good enough. That's our own POV about what he says. We need secondary RS that expressly say it. If it's that difficult to find such sources, then it doesn't belong in the article. BTW, I have no previous knowledge of either Destiny or Tim Pool. I don't usually listen to podcasts or YouTube channels for such content. I use YouTube for music, and YouTube Premium is well worth the cost. You can read about ]. I occasionally hear an episode of ] because my wife shares it with me. She likes him, and he doesn't rant and rave. He seems clearly left-wing and progressive, and not far-left. -- ] (]) (PING me) 17:49, 21 September 2024 (UTC)


== Tim Ferriss - Career section ==
: OMG! I have just complained about this particular issue. It looks like we're on the same page. I'll go there now and make a statement. Done. -- ] (]) 15:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


Hi Valjean, Thanks so much for you help on ]'s page. Would you be willing to look at the ] I posted about adding to the Career section? I would really appreciate it. Thank you! ] (]) 14:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Now located here: ''']'''
: {{Done}}. -- ] (]) (PING me) 15:15, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! ] (]) 15:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)


== A cup of tea for you! ==
==Motion in ]==


{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
The Arbitration Committee has altered the above-linked case by successful open motion. The header of the finding which previously read "Use of unreliable sources by Fyslee" (Finding of Fact 3.2) has been changed to "Sources used by Fyslee".
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]

|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | thank you for undoing my edit to ]! I didn't realize it was a quote and will be more careful next time :) ] (] • ]) 04:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
For the Arbitration Committee,<br>
] (]) 23:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you! There is some justice here after all. -- ] (]) 00:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

== Parsing of ] ==

{| class="messagebox standard-talk"
|-
|{{anchor|Notice}}'''Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience'''

In December of 2006 the ] ruled on guidelines on the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in ].
* ''']:''' ], a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to ].
* ''']:''' Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work.

; The four groupings found at ]:

* ''']:''' Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as ], may be so labeled and categorized as such without more.
* ''']:''' Theories which have a following, such as ], but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.
* ''']:''' Theories which have a substantial following, such as ], but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.
*''']''': Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.
|} |}
: You're very welcome, and thank you. -- ] (]) (PING me) 04:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)


== ''The Signpost'': 26 September 2024 ==
I have parsed the ArbCom decision's four groupings, here reproduced and tweaked:
There is an obvious demarcation line that the ArbCom members seemed to recognize, and that is "who is supporting or criticizing what."

They made four groupings, and the first two are always recognized by the scientific mainstream as fringe=alternative (often alternative medicine) ideas opposed to the mainstream, but supported by believers in pseudosciences. The scientific mainstream criticism is allowed to be stated, IOW that the fringe=alternative believers are wrong, and that their position is pseudoscientific, all by the use of V & RS, and can (in addition) even be so characterized <u>by editors</u> at Misplaced Pages (by using the <nowiki>]</nowiki> tag). IOW, the ArbCom decision is supporting scientific mainstream editors and limiting fringe editors:

*'''1. Obvious pseudoscience'''
*'''2. Generally considered pseudoscience'''

The next two are quite different, since they are about ideas on the mainstream side of the demarcation line mentioned above. They are mainstream ideas that may or may not be firmly entrenched, but are somewhat trusted or still being researched in a legitimate manner. They may actually be experimental. No matter what, they are not considered fringe or alternative medicine ideas. They are sometimes accused by the fringe side as pseudoscientific (in true ] style - see ), and the ArbCom decision forbids the fringe editors here from categorizing those mainstream ideas as pseudoscientific. Again, the ArbCom decision is supporting mainstream editors and limiting fringe editors:

*'''3. Questionable science''' (IOW, things like psychoanalysis, which is considered mainstream and is specifically addressed by the ArbCom, and would not be allowed in this list).
*'''4. Alternative theoretical formulations''' ("are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process," IOW also considered mainstream, and would not be allowed in this list. "Experimental alternatives are unproven but have a plausible rationale and are undergoing responsible investigation.")

I think this parsing is more accurate and it makes sense. The ArbCom members would hardly be expected to disallow V & RS, but they certainly would set limits on what certain fringe=alternative editors have occasionally tried to do - editorially calling mainstream ideas pseudoscientific by categorizing them as such. The ArbCom members support mainstream science and set limits on how far fringe editors can go in (mis)using Misplaced Pages categories. They are not addressing the use of V & RS in lists and articles.

Changing the title of the ] would help to enable the use of all V & RS, as required by inclusion criteria. The current title is not NPOV. We need a ] or ], or better yet, ]. That would be the primary inclusion criteria (IOW what was "on-topic"), and would allow well-sourced criticisms by scientific academies, various organizations, and even individuals who are quoted in V & RS. At the same time the ArbCom decision would disallow the disruptive POINT violations of pseudoskeptics who attempt to include more-or-less mainstream ideas in this list (such as vaccinations, antibiotics, etc., as has happened). Such sabotage attempts would not be allowed. Those who are still acting in a protectionist mode will of course attempt to retain a hard title "List of pseudosciences", since that will allow them to keep their widely criticized pet ideas out of this list. That's unwikipedian and such attempts should be defeated. It limits the list by disallowing many very notable opinions in V & RS.

-- ] (]) 01:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

:Can I ask you Fyslee where these things fit in with projects? Take attachment therapy - a pseudoscience relating to attachment which claims to be mainstream and is practiced by some psychologists (still). In earlier days a few shoddy studies appeared in peer reviewed journals, as do articles, and also articles in books on psych topics. Mainstream psychologists and psychiatrists have analysed it and debunked it with a series of publications in peer reviewed journals and books. My question is - is this still part of psychology in the sense that a pseudoscience is a pseudo which battens on or derives from some form of science? Pseudosciences do not stand alone. In the same way, is homeopathy part of the medicine project in that it purports to be medicine and the research that has been and is still being done on it is medical research? Medicine is the science its the pseudo of. The alternative view is to lump all pseudosciences together. Am I making sense? ] <sup><small>]</small></sup>] 21:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Hmmm....I'm not sure if I understand everything you're getting at, so I'll take a stab at part of it. If a practice makes medical or scientific claims, then it likely belongs in some sense under the medicine project AND the alternative medicine project, but the medical project will of course call it what it is -- quackery and pseudoscience, since they are the ones best able to evaluate the scientific and medical claims being made, while many of those in the alternative medicine project may seek to defend it. Others who deal with such subjects all the time may be better able to deal with the societal effects, and the unethical and legal aspects. Doctors and scientists who do both are usually active scientific skeptics (IOW, debunkers and quackbusters), while "pure" scientists usually ignore the subject as unworthy of their attention. The debunkers and quackbusters are concerned about ethics, truth in advertising, and consumer protection, so they are activists on the matter. Maybe we need a project that spans the two projects and includes editors who are concerned about ethics and scientific accuracy. I don't know if that helps at all, and maybe I've missed the mark entirely. If you are getting at something else, please be more specific and provide an actual situation. -- ] (]) 21:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
:::Thats about it really. Put simply the question is - should psychology pseudosciences be part of the psychology project and medical pseudosciences be part of the medicine project or should they be totally divorced from them on the grounds that because they are pseudosciences they are not ''actually'' "psychology" or "medicine"? If neither fits the bil, should there be "sub-projects". Just having a pseudoscience project seems to me to divorce the pseudosciences from their roots as it were. This does not seem satisfactory to me as the scientific investigation of pseudoscientific or borderline claims is very much part of the work of the scientific community (for the more serious pseudosciences that is. Lots of them don't really attract serious attention). The specific example is the one I gave you above - ], a pseudoscience which got removed from the psychology project for that reason. ] <sup><small>]</small></sup>] 22:40, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

==]<span style="display:none;">''Misplaced Pages Signpost''</span><span style="color:#666; font-variant: small-caps; font-size:80%; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">: '''23 March 2009'''</span>==
{{colbegin|2}}

* From the editor: ]
* Special report: ]
* News and notes: ]
* Misplaced Pages in the news: ]
* Features and admins: ]
* Arbitration report: ]
{{colend}}
<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ]</div>

<small>Delievered by ] (]) at 04:00, 24 March 2009 (UTC)</small>

== Mysterious huffings in Mindinao. ==

Whoops, I belatedly noticed your request to respond here. Alas, I have only general ideas to offer. ] (]) 20:27, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== "could coverage"? ==

See -- 'good coverage' perhaps? ] (]) 14:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

: Thanks! Will fix. -- ] (]) 14:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Personal attacks ==

At ] there are three posts in which you attack Unomi based on an unfounded belief that he is a sockpuppet or returning user. As I noted elsewhere, with only a little research you can easily find out which country Unomi is editing from. You can also google his user name to find a lot of additional information about him, some of it related to his country of residence. The SPI case (apparently Unomi didn't know it was a RfCU since the term seems to be officially out of use since the merge of all SPIs to a single page) ends with "Checkuser evidence shows no IP-relationship nor any geographic relationship nor any other checkusery sort of evidence between the three candidates". I have rarely if ever seen such a strong formulation for a negative CU result. It led to the following unblock comment: "Checkuser evidence appears to indicate this sockpuppet ID was a mistake. Undoing my own block."

I have analysed at ] how several editors, most notably one who was blocked for edit warring two weeks ago and hasn't logged in after the block expired, have shown typical mobbing behaviour in response to very little provocation and the flimsiest evidence. I have had ZERO responses pointing out any inaccuracy in my analysis or even just disagreeing with it. The short version: Unomi tried to fix the misrepresentation of a source, didn't go about it with the care necessary at a controversial article, and got no constructive feedback. OM told him "Please see ], ], ], ], ], ], and ] for good measure. Oh, and you're approaching ]." Unomi ''did'' follow at least the last of these links, and at ] found a reference to an obscure old Arbcom case. OM replied: "Sniff. Sniff. Damn someone forgot to wash some socks out." From that point on, OM and some others shut down communication with Unomi almost completely, instead repeating the baseless sockpuppet accusations as a mantra.

You should be more careful before attacking others in public. --] (]) 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'm well aware of the results of the CU, and I noted that in my comment. I have put a hat on the dispute which veered way off-topic. I still stand by my descriptions of Unomi's edit warring and SPI status, and was surprised by the denial, and then the subsequent inaccurate attacks (I was indeed vindicated, since I had been judged in the absence of evidence), which escalated things. -- ] (]) 01:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

:: "Slip through" is hardly an appropriate description of a strongly negative CU result after a fishing expedition. To repeat myself from the analysis I linked above: Guess the word that is missing here: "'''X'''s have been characterised by the use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims, over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation, lack of openness to testing by other expert ." Incidentally, I am getting a certain unfavourable impression of you. Do you remember an instance where you admitted you were wrong about something? I would love to read it and raise my opinion of you. Thanks. --] (]) 08:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

::: I have apologized many times during my stay here at Misplaced Pages. That Unomi wasn't nailed by the CU doesn't change the fact that Unomi still edits in a tendentious mannerm but has at least seemed to drop the obsession with the ] matter. I do see some ray of hope for this relatively new user, and that is because (s)he doesn't always follow the pseudoskeptical party line usually pushed by Levine2112. I am seeing more attempts at seeking consensus, which is a very positive trend. I'm hoping the best for this user. It does take time to learn the ropes here. None of us understands all the ins and outs of Misplaced Pages, and we are all learning. Mistakes will happen, apologies need to be made, and wounds can be healed. -- ] (]) 13:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Sorry, I missed the strikethrough in the ANI comment. I count this as an answer. Nevertheless I am not very impressed by the language you are continuing to use. --] (]) 14:35, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

::::: Is it that I describe the behavior of a tendentious editor? That's my opinion. You are welcome to yours. I am being very subdued compared to what some admins are urging me to do, which is to raise the issues at RfC on user behavior. I'm being encouraged to actually try to get both Unomi and Levine2112 indef blocked, but I'm waiting and we are collecting evidence. -- ] (]) 14:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

::::::If that's what people are encouraging you to do, then you are probably keeping bad company. I am not impressed by what Levine has been doing on the pseudosciences list, and if you look at the analysis I linked above you will see that I am not uncritical of Unomi's edits, either. Yet in my opinion is Unomi and Levine don't fit the criteria detailed in ]; their crime is simply to form a counterweight to other editors who also don't quite fit the criteria (). Their respective behaviour is inconvenient to some, but certainly not banworthy. I think it's nevertheless OK if you claim that Unomi is editing tendentiously, because that's clearly a subjective statement.
::::::The language I was objecting to was: "That Unomi wasn't nailed by the CU doesn't change the fact that...". And also some things at ANI that didn't get strikethrough: You quoted ] as if that thread reflected badly on Unomi. Obviously many people are not going to follow the link, so they won't see that contrary to what you would expect, in that thread nothing remotely like hard evidence is presented, Unomi gets strong support from slakr (who seems to be completely uninvolved) and me, and he is unblocked by the blocking admin because of a negative checkuser result. And of course, "a CU was indeed performed, which you did slip through".
::::::This is what I mean by character assassination. If you have any evidence that Unomi is a returning user or somebody's sockpuppet, you need to put it on the table. If you have no evidence other than an ultimately unsuccessful fishing expedition by his enemies, then you must shut up.
::::::For some perspective, you might want to look at . It appears that his first contributions were to an article that was deleted. All his following activities seem to revolve around the deleted article. Transfer this new user into the present, and it would be fairly easy to convince a checkuser to use the tools to see whether he is a good hand account of ScienceApologist, or something like that. It would probably come out negative, but of course after that one can go around repeating that there is something wrong with this "new" user ''even though he narrowly escaped a checkuser conviction''. Or can one? Should one be able to do that? --] (]) 19:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

LOL - Hans has been busy on talkpages lately :-) ] (]) 05:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

:This is not the first time. It happens occasionally, when I see that someone is being mobbed. I just can't have that. --] (]) 11:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

:: Your efforts might be better used if you would discuss the problems with the one being criticized and advised them of how Misplaced Pages works so they don't get into more trouble. By criticizing me you are siding with them and giving them more courage to continue their disruptions. Not that I don't sometimes deserve to be cautioned, but don't forget to do something about the cause of the whole problem - pushers of fringe POV. -- ] (]) 14:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
:::I don't think I am neglecting that part. But criticising a mobbing victim ''publicly'' is not an ethical option. And the fringe POV pushers are clearly not the only problem we have here. --] (]) 15:06, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

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<small>Delievered by ] (]) at 20:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)</small>
== Unkind words ==

Please remove your on me. Address the substance of my argument rather than attacking me. Thanks. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 06:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

: He is - just because you don't like it doesn't make it less valid. ] (]) 07:04, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I only noticed this edit due to posting a barnstar here, and all I have to say "wow". This was the kind of post that should be kept somewhere, and probably deserves another barnstar. Something like this would make a good basis for or extension to an essay. ] <small>]</small> 09:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

::: Thanks for the barnstar! I truly wish I could have commented on the substance of the argument without mentioning the author of the argument, but the two are wedded together. The situation is so like] as to be bizarre. His argument strikes so directly at misuses of basic logic and common sense that parts of my reply are worthy of inclusion in our polices to some degree. In fact it already is, but worded better. Eldereft cited the relevant part from ], a part I wasn't really aware of, but which means that we are often violating RS, because we aren't enforcing that part of it. -- ] (]) 14:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-09-26}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 13--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 20:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>
:::: Just to note that the barnstar is for edits more general than just this post; I wasn't even aware of this at the time I posted the barnstar. ] <small>]</small> 14:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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::::: Picking a petty point of pure pedantry, RS is technically a guideline elaborating and expanding on the policy ]. But yeah - I think this encyclopedia would benefit immeasurably if we all were actually to adhere to ''appropriate'' sourcing. Also, ]; there is nothing wrong with calling out unproductive discussion and unproductive editing patterns. Keeping those discussions tightly focused on the article at hand is the only way I have found to keep them even remotely editable. - ] <small>(])</small> 17:15, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


== For continued service == == A cup of coffee for you! ==


{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;" {| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ] |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Keep seeing your diligent work on ] pop up on my watchlist. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 22:20, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For your contributions to medicine and science articles, and those articles that would otherwise make claim to be ]. ] <small>]</small> 09:46, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
|} |}
: Thanks! So nice to have you back. -- ] (]) (PING me) 22:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)


== Tim Ferriss - additional updates ==
Huzzah for edits based entirely on appropriate sourcing! - ] <small>(])</small> 17:17, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


Hi Valjean, You have been so helpful on ]'s page. I added one more edit request to the Talk page with ideas for the Early life and Personal life sections as well as the lead. I would love it if you would take a look - ]. I'm grateful for your assistance. Thank you! ] (]) 15:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
== Questions for ] ==


== Administrators' newsletter – October 2024 ==
Unomi, you have made a number of statements at the ] that puzzle me. What are you talking about? Your heading there and the content that followed don't seem to hang together. You immediately turned it into an attack on me, QW, and Barrett. Here are some of the things you wrote that I'd like you to explain:


] from the past month (September 2024).
1. You wrote: ''"@Fyslee: I am going to ask you one last time to cease and desist with using strawman tactics and attributing statements or intents to me which you do not back up with diffs. I have never sought inclusion of Scientology sources."'' <sup>(BTW, your use of @ isn't standard indentation here and is rather irritating. Very few use it.)</sup>


]
: 1a. Where did you ask me to "cease and desist..."?


] '''Administrator changes'''
: 1b. What "strawman tactic" are you referring to? (Be VERY specific with a quote and diff.)
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: 1c. What statement or intent have I attributed to you?
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] '''Guideline and policy news'''
: 1d. Where have I stated that you "sought inclusion of Scientology sources"? That was a subject relevant to the heading of the section, but I didn't write anything about "you" doing it. That wouldn't have been true at all. We both know that it is Levine2112 that is doing so.
*] are a proposed new process for selecting administrators, offering an alternative to ] (RfA). The first trial election will take place in October 2024, with ] from October 8 to 14, a ] from October 22 to 24, and ] from October 25 to 31. For questions or to help out, please visit the talk page at ].
* Following ], the speedy deletion reason "File pages without a corresponding file" has been moved from criterion ] to ]. This does not change what can be speedily deleted.
* A ] is open to discuss whether there is a consensus to have an ] process.


] '''Arbitration'''
2. You wrote: ''"The source which you seem to hold in such high regard was held in such low esteem by California Superior Court Judge Hon. Haley J. Fromholz that he saw fit to write..."''
* The arbitration case '']'' has been closed.
* An arbitration case regarding ] has been opened.
* Editors are invited to ''']''' to serve on the 2024 Arbitration Committee Electoral Commission until ''23:59 October 8, 2024 (UTC)''.


] '''Miscellaneous'''
: 2a. Where does he refer to QW in any manner? He is referring to Barrett in a very limited and specific situation, where he was poorly prepared because of a bad lawyer he was using at the time. Nothing the judge said applies to Barrett in other situations outside the court room, or even on that subject (FDA regulations) in other situations, where he is usually much better prepared. It certainly didn't address QW at all. You're stretching his comments way out of context and applying them too broadly. You are not the only one who has done that, and that person is currently being sued for libel by Barrett.
* If you are interested in stopping spammers, please put ] and ] on your watchlist, and help out when you can.


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: 2b. Just FYI, the judge was heavily biased against Barrett and the other expert witness, to the point that there are questions about whether he was influenced by illegal methods, and he made a very poor call. He was obviously antagonistic and far from unbiased, as a judge should be.
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== ''The Signpost'': 19 October 2024 ==
3. You wrote: ''"...but you must realize then that in-text attribution of the opinions must be..."''


<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-10-19}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 14--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 11:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>
: 3a. I agree with you! I have written it several times. How many more times do I have to write it before you will believe me?
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== Administrators' newsletter – November 2024 ==
4. You wrote: ''"You consistently indicated your unwillingness to abide by wikipedia guidelines and policy..."''


] from the past month (October 2024).
: 4a. I have not "indicated". That's your interpretation.


]
: 4b. It is also a matter of interpretation as to whether or not I am abiding by those guidelines and policies. Other very experienced editors agree with me and disagree with you, a newbie here. Don't be so bombastic in your statements. Maybe we happen to understand those policies better than you. If you rely on Levine2112 for an understanding of those policies, you will surely be led astray. Recognize that he is wikilawyering, and thus is twisting them to his own purposes.


] '''Administrator changes'''
5. You wrote: ''"...if you continue to make unfounded and slanderous accusations we will very quickly see ourselves at yet another venue for dispute resolution."''
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: 5a. What accusations are you referring to? I don't find any accusations on that page. That's pretty strong language.
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] '''Oversighter changes'''
: 5b. What other "venue" are you referring to? Is that a threat? I can assure you that if you were to escalate this matter, your every edit would be carefully examined and I doubt you would survive at Misplaced Pages. You would likely be indef blocked or banned as some other editors who have done similar things to me have experienced. They are no longer allowed access to Misplaced Pages.
:] ]


] '''Guideline and policy news'''
In spite of (and maybe because of ;-) the fact that I am quite knowledgeable about the ideas of many forms of alternative medicine, most notably chiropractic, having made it a study for many decades, I am a very strongly pro-science, mainstream, editor who adheres to Misplaced Pages policies as best I can. I'm not perfect, but no one can question my loyalty to Misplaced Pages's policies and NPOV. I have made mistakes, especially in the beginning, but I have a positive learning curve. As examples of my support of NPOV you will find that I am one who supports and protects the inclusion of some of the worst fringe nonsense imaginable here. Why? Because if it is a notable fringe subject, then NPOV requires that it be presented here, and I support that. In the other direction, I support the inclusion of legitimate and well-sourced criticisms of mainstream subjects. I'm not a deletionist or whitewasher.
* Following a ], the ] proposal that went for a trial to refine the ] (RfA) process has been discontinued.
* Following a ], ] is adopted as a policy.


] '''Technical news'''
Please explain your accusations and refer to each item by number. Do it below. -- ] (]) 05:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
* Mass deletions done with the ] tool now have the 'Nuke' tag. This change will make reviewing and analyzing deletions performed with the tool easier. {{phab|T366068}}


] '''Arbitration'''
=== Response to Fyslee ===
* {{noping|RoySmith}}, {{noping|Barkeep49}} and {{noping|Cyberpower678}} have been appointed to the ] for the ]. {{noping|ThadeusOfNazereth}} and {{noping|Dr vulpes}} are reserve commissioners.
Hi Fyslee and thank you for giving me this opportunity to address the issues that you have raised.
* Eligible editors are invited to self-nominate from 3 November 2024 until 12 November 2024 to stand in the ].
* The Arbitration Committee is ] for roles such as clerks, access to the COI queue, checkuser, and oversight.
] '''Miscellaneous'''
* An ] is happening in November 2024 to reduce the backlog of articles tagged with {{tl|Unreferenced}}. You can help reduce the backlog by adding citations to these articles. ]


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1.
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: 1a. I have never used the phrase 'cease and desist' prior to that posting, but I have made numerous requests for clarification of reasoning behind partisan and divisive language as well as making assertions which you have not endeavored to back up by pointing to actions or statements that I have made.
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== on communication in different societies ==
: 1b. In this case the strawman tactic is exemplified by raising the specter of Scientology on the NPOVN board when that was not relevant to my query there.
:*Without context or qualifiers this looks like implicating that I want to use CoS . Your post seemed quite out of place.


As a New Yorker, I think the truism or the stereotype of learned experience is a dangerous and powerful thing. Universality can also be a delusion at times, but consider empiricism, a topic I know we both cherish. Many things about the universe are counter-intuitive and sometimes even irrational, like quantum mechanics. Yet we still sometimes harbor the delusion of a Newtonian universe. We also inhabit a ]. ] is a fraught topic. What I mean by all of this abstract stuff is that it's better not to generalize even though obviously different societies are different. For example, in low-content or high-context societies, for example, I recently had the occasion to work with a lot of international folks from the Scandinavian region. There's a bluntness that I can appreciate, very different from say, Japan, where it's expected to imply or skirt around certain things. Yes, Israelis also have their own type of communication and some if it is a stereotype, but how can you argue with one's internalized lived experience? Yet, we must, because it can cause to make generalizations go beyond the scope or local minimum which they apply in. As a New Yorker, I've always seen other New Yorkers put themselves out there to help anyone who needs it, and work together as a city to heal or help communities, yet you would hear the stereotype that New Yorkers aren't "nice." Yet, "Minnesota nice" people will tell you that their pleasantries are passive aggression. What's better?
: 1c. :You have on numerous occasions made comments to the effect that I am a POV pusher, a fringe defender, and a sockpuppet. You have stated that I use WP as a battleground and that I am a tendentious editor.


A writer like ] is reliable. I challenge you to find any errors in his books on Israel and Zionism. Sure, he has a POV, but he's not Dershowitz or Karsh. And there's nothing really that wrong with Karsh either, but he doesn't make any illusion of showing where he's coming from. That doesn't mean he can't be used for facts, since we apparently think it's ok to use an anthropologist, Nadia abu el Haj, on an article about genetics, or we'll use an economist instead of a historian as on the Zionism article. There's a problem on Misplaced Pages in that we have inconsistently applied, in some cases leading to presumed-unintentional cherrypicking, when it comes to a number of issues about international politics. In fact, I would challenge anyone who thinks there aren't many problems with Misplaced Pages's coverage of international politics to actually spend some time thoughtfully compiling a source survey of the top Ivy League or Cambridge/Oxford/Stanford/MIT/and similar caliber academics and how they treat international politics, versus some of the academics that end up getting used on Misplaced Pages but are objectively less pedigreed - maybe not fringe per se, but definitely in a specific niche.
: 1d. See 1b.
2.
: 2a. From my reading of the arbcom case and amendment as well as the record on RS/N I found that the consensus is that for all intents and purposes QW = Barrett. I have not researched extensively beyond the realm of wikipedia consensus. But it seems from a direct quote on ] that this could be widely understood.


How are you feeling about tonight? I'd say about D 342 is my prediction and a trifecta is looking quite possible if NE-Sen, MT, and/or OH have a D night. House also looks good, as 3 of the R-to-D flips are already priced in by the NYT, and Oracle Pelosi has graced us with her aligning view. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 21:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
: I am not able to make any assessment of how the judge came to his conclusion regarding Barretts credibility as an expert witness in that particular case. I do find your theory that it was caused by bad prepping by his lawyer plausible though. I am curious; the person being sued for libel, is that for stating that a judge found Barrett not-credible as an expert witness?


:Apologies for butting in uninvited, but I ended up here by happenstance & felt the need to reply.
: 2b. Could you point me to a source where these questions regarding the Judges credibility is raised? (non-rs is fine).
:On a somewhat cursory glance of his writings, I would not consider Gil Troy a reliable source as he is rather prone to errors.
:In he writes that ''"Israel has been falsely accused of ...withholding vaccines from Palestinians"'' despite that being (He also cites his own opinion article) He also states ''"Israel has no legislation based on race"'' on the pretext that race = ''"appearance, blood, presumed biology or skin color"'', which ignores the social aspect of race as a concept. He then uses this as justification for his later reasoning -
:''"Security-based distinctions may keep Israelis and Palestinians apart but that’s not apartheid, a race-based, skin-color-driven form of legal discrimination."'' (I'm not commenting on if Israel does or does not practice apartheid, only that he does not understand what the word means, thus failing to properly counter the accusation).
:Then, in his book, , he references posters saying “Rape Is Resistance and “Babies Are Occupiers Too… Free Palestine by Any Means Necessary.”, but what he is referencing are obviously fake stickers spread online by an outrage grifter named .
:He does not do his research & he does not care for accuracy.
:Again, apologies for this potential tirade, I'm not outright objecting to your point or mean any offense to you, but I felt the need to point out issues with Gil Troy specifically. ] (]) 00:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}
My reply to both of you is that I don't know who Troy is and haven't considered him in anything I've said. What I said at the Zionism article was generalities and principles. I have not been active in the Middle East topics area and have no desire to get into that quagmire and quicksand. I suspect it has a lot of tricky aspects, just like the gender and LGBTQ topics, and one can easily offend and be misunderstood. I have seen too many good editors blocked because of it in both areas. I am not an expert and have a lot to learn, so I appreciate all input. Feel free to teach me.


My father and brothers have traveled in those areas, while I have only visited Lebanon for ten days in 1996. We stayed with our new family in Beirut. My wife's nephew met a Christian Lebanese girl in England, and we were invited to the wedding. The food and hospitality were amazing! Super healthy and tasty. We love garlic, so got lots of it. It was a different party and restaurant every night. We chartered a bus for the whole family and toured the country. That was quite the experience. As we got further and further south in the Beqaa Valley, stopping at checkpoint after checkpoint, the signs on buildings got more and more ominous. I was the only American, and I was warned, for good reason, to not let my nationality be known. The signs showed huge caricatures of American soldiers with alligator heads with Arabic babies in their mouths, with lots of blood. At one checkpoint, the driver refused to go any further, with the explanation that we were getting too far into Hezbollah territory and could risk becoming hostages. Yes, it sounded like a good idea to get out of that area! Further south was the area from which Hezbollah shoots their rockets into northern Israel. Every day Israeli jets buzzed Beirut, with loud sonic booms and generally spreading terror, because they would also shoot at targets. We saw on TV a little knoll in the Beqaa Valley that had a Syrian tank on it. An Israeli jet blew it up, and that was just on the other side of the coastal range from where we were. This was very different from peaceful Denmark! It turned out that this was normal for peacetime. There were no active conflicts at the time, so this was just the usual way that Israel treated Lebanon. I would love to visit Israel, but with Lebanon stamped in my passport, that would have been out of the question. -- ] (]) (PING me) 01:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
3.
: 3a. Your agreement seemed very slow in materializing, and you have professed a reluctance based on 'over attribution'. This is quite simply incompatible with the use of opinion in an article.
::*Patronizing tone, believes skirting wikipedia policy "shouldn't be a problem" due to text in Lead. In the same breath acknowledges 'characterized' as opinion that may not be correct and downplays matters of attribution.
::*(When discussing opinion included in articles) Asserts 'generally for attribution' but worried about 'over attribution' comparing it to 'over linking', concludes 'sounds good in theory'


:I brought up Troy as an example of a reliable Zionist historian since you (Valjean) said that Zionist historians exaggerate. I'm sure that some Zionist historians do, but Troy is reliable. Responding to Butterscotch - is he a friend of yours? - Israel does give vaccines to the Palestinians, Troy's opinion on the appropriateness of the word apartheid is hardly impeaching his credibility, and your example of some kind of outrage grifter doesn't negate the fact that there are very real activists espousing those messages in addition to presumed trolls. Nothing in Buttscotch's thread is any kind of indictment or critique of Troy. Troy happens to be Canadian and is not Israeli. But there are also a number of reliable Israeli historians. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 00:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
4.
::I don't really know @], as I said, I got here by happenstance, more specifically, I misclicked & my curiosity got the best of me.
: 4a. See 3a, Note that opinion '''must''' be attributed, note also that you still adhere to the belief that the lead of an article can make the article exempt from core principles such as ], ] and ].
::The point of how Israel is ''now'' handling vaccines though, is irrelevant considering what/when Troy was referring to, Covid-19, where that was an issue.
::I was not commenting on his opinion of how appropriate the word apartheid was, but rather that he either 1) didn't have the wherewithal to check what the accusation he sought to deny meant, or 2) he purposefully sought to mislead the reader as he repeatedly emphasizes his incorrect understanding of race to dismiss the argument. ''(I'm trying to practice good faith in my analysis of his work, so I'll stick with 1)''.
::My "example of some kind of outrage grifter" is important because the only place I can find of any evidence showing posters or stickers with that message are from a bunch of grifters on twitter who peddle in disinformation. <sub>(If you can find actual protesters saying either “Rape Is Resistance" or “Babies Are Occupiers Too", please let me know so I can condemn them & block them)</sub> It's important because it would show that he doesn't scrutinize or verify his sources. It also didn't help that he didn't actually cite any info for that book, so its contents remain academically useless.
::It's fine for him to be highly opinionated, but his inability to properly fact check his sources to support those opinions leave him as a sub-par writer, especially for such a contentious topic.
::There should be enough ''actually'' academic Zionist scholars to cite anyway, so I don't feel we'd be at much of a loss not using him.
::...''And'', I seem to've typed out another wall of text, sorry for that. Also, apologies to Valjean for having my words clutter your page. ] (]) 01:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::That's a ridiculous assumption that because you couldn't personally verify something, you believe that is evidence that Troy doesn't fact check his sources and is a sub-par writer. He's an academic and a respected published author and historian. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 01:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::::Well if I can't verify the claim, and he doesn't cite anything, its validity should be considered questionable. He's also an ''American presidential'' historian, not a Zionist historian <sub>(should've brought that up earlier)</sub>, so his academic credentials are unrelated to his activism.
::::Are you going to acknowledge anything else that I wrote? Also, should we take this to a different page as to not further bother Valjean? ] (]) 01:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::Actually I'd rather drop it. You haven't made any reasonable arguments. Troy is a historian of Zionism as well as other types of history. If Valjean wants to respond to any of this, he can, or not. I was responding to something Valjean wrote, as far as I know there isn't any editing issue that you and I have to discuss. Valjean is one of my friends here. But I unfortunately found a lot of problems with the recent statement he made on Zionism. I do not think I could find common ground with you on this, and you've done little to disabuse me of that. Troy is reliable, but I also haven't at any time cited anything to him in an article. If I ever do and you revert that, we can discuss it then, until then, I don't think we have anything to discuss further right now. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 03:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}
I don't mind you holding your conversation here. I'm learning from it! Andre, please explain what problems you found with my comments. I'm sure I can learn more. My opinion there is neither my full POV (whatever the fuck that might be!) nor necessarily well-informed, hence my desire to hear your opinion. (It would also help me to know your background. Jewish?... or use email) I have a pathologically insatiable desire to always be learning, hence my love for editing here and watching '']''. (Feel free to improve my article ].) -- ] (]) (PING me) 05:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)


:I think it's been a matter of public record on wiki so I don't mind saying that my great-grandparents came to America fleeing the pogroms in the Russian Empire and Eastern Europe. I tend not to agree with my more right-wing family members but most American Jews are quite progressive and believe it's OK to criticize the current right-wing government of Israel and the high civilian death tolls. It's also the case that Hamas uses human shields and puts hostages in civilian areas or with journalists or military installations in hospitals. There are many problematic tropes and misinformation, such as those who accuse Israel of intentionally trying to wipe out the Palestinian population, a population that has only continued to grow, nothing like the Holocaust during which 6 million Jews were killed and the population still hasn't recovered. Arab citizens in Israel can vote, own land, and serve in the parliament. Most of the Jewish population of Israel, only about half of which is European, went there because they had nowhere else to go after persecution in Europe and the Middle East/North African areas that became inhospital and expelled or otherwise persecuted their Jews in the aftermath of 1948. The US did not accept many Jewish refugees in the 1930s and 1940s. That doesn't mean the Palestinian refugees didn't also in many cases get a raw deal and it's fair to criticize the West Bank settlers that often flout international law and exist an extralegal area. Still, on 10/7, Hamas unprovoked invaded Israeli territory attacking and slaughtering civilians. Hezbollah has also been launching rockets into Israel. Israel has a right to defend itself and it has a right to exist within the historical borders that the entire international community voted for and ratified. Believing in that doesn't mean condoning ethnocentrism or ethnically targeted policy. Unfortunately, that was a reality for many places including the United States especially in the 1930s and earlier. There is also a progressive left in Israel and it's a country that has given us many medical and technological advances, not to mention a permissive and tolerant, and democratic culture. The portrayal of the country as a colonial oppressor similar to South Africa is not apt. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 05:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
: 4b. please see ], ], and ]. I very much doubt you will find many who argue that opinion should not be attributed, and I doubt that you will find many that hold QW to be entirely an ], should it not be held to be a RS in entirety then the burden of proof for individual assertions is on the person who includes it in the article. Hence you will likely find it easier to attribute them properly, the fact that an experienced editor as yourself has failed to attribute the assertions casts some doubt on the validity of your argument on this point.
:: We agree. The whole situation is just so sad. Why can't people get along? Ask Isaac and Ishmael! It started with them, and their descendants are doomed to always be at war. To complicate matters, the state of Israel is also used as a pawn in international political intrigues and is used as a proxy, whether it likes it or not. The specter of ] always hangs over the region. -- ] (]) (PING me) 05:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::Yes, it's global chess games, and unfortunately there is collateral damage and innocents in the crossfire. All we can do is try to educate and deradicalize people. Sadly, a lot of our current day progressives have forgotten some of the important and hard-won lessons. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 05:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:: On a different topic, what about the '']'' mess? What is to prevent Trump from doing the same and going after any editors here who include anything negative in his articles? We have about two months before our freedoms can get attacked, so we should enjoy this respite. -- ] (]) (PING me) 05:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::Definitely don't defame anyone onwiki. I agree. It's a worrisome development. But also, I think I'm a 2024 truther. Let's see the final counts and any cured mail-in ballots. Biden wasn't declared winner in 2020 until Saturday. The numbers were so far off from the polls such as the Seltzer poll in Iowa, and DeJoy is still postmaster. Trump always projects and accuses his opponents of what he's guilty of. But you'll notice nobody has mentioned "stopping the steal" or any rigged ballot counts in the last 36 hours. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 05:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::: Interesting stuff. The election needs to play out and be curated. It needs a complete and thorough ''post mortem''. I have a hard time believing that the Russians, who fully penetrated most electoral systems in most states, didn't use that knowledge to benefit Trump this time around. That makes no sense, so they likely did have a finger or two in the works somewhere. Being as dishonest as he is, I'm always suspicious of him. He would be a failure, by his own standards, if he missed a chance to cheat, and even though he is a huge failure in just about every area of life, cheating is one area where he excels. This was just too "clean". -- ] (]) (PING me) 16:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
{{outdent|::::}}Any idea why Ivanka Trump patented a "voting machine" in China in 2018? I've tried to find more info, but I can't. She applied for the patent in 2016, which seems weird. I was just reading Victoria Collier's wild 2012 essay in Harper's. I wonder how many people know that US voting machine companies are owned by Republicans? As late as 2020, NBC News was reporting that many of these machines made by these same companies are not certified by the U.S. Election Assistance Commission even though the companies who sell them falsely claim they are. ] (]) 23:34, 11 November 2024 (UTC)


: ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 01:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
5.
: 5a. You have repeatedly, since I first made your acquaintance, made statements that were designed to damage my reputation and standing. You have continued to forward the same insinuations and allegations with no attempt to back them up with diffs or anything else. You came to my talk page to apologize for the 'misunderstanding' only to continue the same behavior on AN/I. You are spreading what amounts to a ] which is unfair, unjustified and falls afoul of ].


== ''The Signpost'': 6 November 2024 ==
: 5b. The other venues are quite clearly any in the gamut from WQA to RfAR. I certainly did not mean it as a 'threat' it is unfortunate if you understood it as such. I can only wonder what your comment is meant to constitute. Yes I see you have quite an extensive editing record here, I found your first ones particularly interesting. I can see where your knowledge of SPA policy comes from.


<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-11-06}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 15--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 08:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>
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== Please sign the ] ==
I hope you will allow for a short list of diffs which formed my experience of you here.
*Pushing for indef ban
*Allegations of tendentious and disruptive editing, poisoning the well.
*Abrasive ES, bad faith accusations
*allegations of SPI, ], denies ], alleges medcabel is an invocation of ]
*Alleging pushing of pseudoscientific POV, misrepresenting ], implying a 'great lack of understanding of the scientific process'.
*Poisoning the well,
*Thought police, no mention of content. Note that this is almost immediately before the MartinPhi allegations
*Characterization of SPA, 'defender of fringe POV', allusions to banning
*Puts a 'hat' on everything but allegations.
*Continues allegations of SPI and edit warring
*Denies ], counters arguments with ] and generalized claims of 'misinformation'
*Seems to indicate that I should have been 'nailed', repeats allegation of tendentious editing, attributes 'obsession', cites 'a ray of hope' *reinforcing the image of wrongdoing
*Shifts burden of proof, acknowledges citing of opinion yet ignores attribution.
*Characterization as a 'tendentious editor'
*Characterization as 'pusher of fringe POV' and 'problem', instigator of 'disruptions'
*Patronizing tone, believes skirting wikipedia policy "shouldn't be a problem" due to text in Lead. In the same breath acknowledges 'characterized' as opinion that may not be correct and downplays matters of attribution.
*(When discussing opinion included in articles) Asserts 'generally for attribution' but worried about 'over attribution' comparing it to 'over linking', concludes 'sounds good in theory'
*Generally abrasive characterizations and manner of presenting arguments
*Attempts at intimidation to discourage dispute resolution
*Denying ], accusations of ] for commenting on 1 noticeboard to a post he didn't open; accusations of stonewalling while refusing to answer on grounds that 'may be a trick questions'
*Characterizing analysis as 'twisted' without counter arguments
*Abrasive ES, text that denies the fact that other editors agree with levine
*Without context or qualifiers this looks to implicate that I want to use CoS


] -- ] (]) (PING me) 18:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)


==Email==
I hope that you will understand that this is just a rough draft and that I welcome requests for clarification. Thanks again. ] (]) 02:02, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I got your email, but I see it's already been dealt with. However, I may consult the blocking administrator about the block. To block such a large range for the specified reason is, in my opinion, highly questionable. Not long ago I was affected by a similar block, but global. I actually had no problem editing English Misplaced Pages, because I'm an administrator, but I was blocked from all other Wikimedia projects, which was very annoying. ] (]) 20:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)


== Article for The Tim Ferriss Show ==
=== Reply ===


Hi Valjean, a few months ago you were very helpful to me in making updates to the ] article. Now I'm trying to create an article for Tim's podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show. I'd love it if you could take a look at the draft I have posted ]. Would you consider moving it to main space?
Thank you so much for being upfront and explaining yourself. To some degree your efforts above do shed some light on your comments. I wasn't expecting things outside the noticeboard to be part of the issue, since my comment stood alone there, and I thought you were overreacting to it. Anyway, there is much confusion and I'm sorry about needlessly hurting your feelings. I'm quite blunt in my expressions at times, and that can hurt. That is not my intention. I'm not really thinking about the reception while I'm writing criticisms. Maybe I should! Rather than answer each and every point, I do notice a few themes that may need clarifying. My comments may not be totally satisfactory, but at least they'll explain where I'm coming from.


Thank you, ] (]) 14:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
* I do think you are pushing a fringe POV, and I'm not the only one who thinks so. It has at times been disruptive. Your siding with, and finding fellow travelers in some of our more notable fringe POV pushers, is unfortunate. You will be judged by the company you keep. That's life here.


== ''The Signpost'': 18 November 2024 ==
* As far as attribution goes, I was only cautious because I wasn't sure how it would be applied. I've seen it done in very POV and manipulative ways, so I just wanted to see examples. The ones you provided looked just fine, and I commended you for them. Have you forgotten that? I have repeatedly supported attribution, especially since the change of title. The fact that I haven't actually gone and started revising text is not because of hypocrisy or lack of desire, but because the discussion about doing it wasn't finished, and because it involves more editing, and right now all these disputes are taking my time. You have provided diffs and interpreted them negatively, while I find my total support for attribution being expressed there. I don't know how to be more clear if you are going to interpret diffs of my comments in such a one-sided manner as to ignore my intent.


<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-11-18}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 16--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 23:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>
* As to the original accusations of being a sock, I have ceased making accusations of that nature, even though I have mentioned the situation. I guess you interpret my mere mention of the history as a repetition of the accusation. Too bad. When you denied having been the subject of an SPI, I was rather surprised and pointed it out. I wasn't repeating the accusation, just setting the record straight. The original concerns which caused the SPI report to be filed in the first place (I can't speak for the filer) were mostly related to your support for, and repetition of, the edits of a known fringe POV pusher, Immortale. The resemblance was unnervingly close. Even though the CU was inconclusive, your editing style still was and is a problem, and since that time has been the focus of my criticisms. That is unchanged, especially since you still refuse to accept the advice of several more experienced editors and admins to not touch the Aspartame controversy for awhile. That has always worried me. I'd think you'd want to protect your reputation here, and even I have advised you for your own good, but you have persisted. That's very unfortunate. Refusal to accept advice is a sign of a negative learning curve, and your credibility here will be judged by that curve. (You may wonder why I ''merely'' say "inconclusive". That's because a CU can only confirm, but not rule out, a sock. Experienced sockmasters can sock from multiple locations in the world at the same time. There are apparently ways to do it. I have once seen one do it to a discussion list, where he (he identified himself properly) would get blocked as disruptive, then change usernames and IPs, and gain access to the list, get blocked, and repeat the process. He went on for hours like that and filled the list with his propaganda. His IPs ranged from NZ, Australia, USA, and several European countries, all within a few hours time, sometimes minutes time. He was doing all this from NZ. So my wording doesn't mean I still think you're a sock of Immmortale. Don't worry about that. I'm just a stickler for details in this case.)
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== ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message ==
* I have made statements about you which I haven't backed up with diffs, simply because it would be too time consuming, and the other editors who were reading would know what I was talking about. If it were a major RfC/U or ArbCom, I would be very meticulous with diffs. Talk pages are often another matter. They are usually more informal. Sometimes it was impressions about you, and those can't be backed up with a few diffs, but are based on the totality of your editing. Whether you think I am accurate or not, you need to recognize that that is the impression you are giving many editors. Other editors who are pushers of fringe POV recognize you as an ally and they then rally around you and defend you. You may not wish that, but that's what's happened. While you shouldn't be judged for the faults of those around you, humans do judge others by the company they keep. Unless you actively distance yourself from them, you will risk sharing their fate. I've seen it happen, and I wouldn't be telling you this if I was interested in causing you harm at Misplaced Pages. I'm giving you advice that can help you and protect you. I did see a glimmer of hope when you didn't totally agree with Levine2112, but you still are worryingly close to him in your POV and editing. He is generally considered one of the most disruptive and insidious of the major fringe POV pushers and defenders. Martinphi is another one who has just had his indef block upheld in an overwhelming manner. Levine2112 is more civil and smooth, hence the more dangerous for this project. Steer clear for you own sake.


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* As to the person who is being sued for libel, they are the source of the statement about Barrett's lack of board certification. We don't have the actual court's wording. We only have a very twisted account of what happened, and that person is known to hide facts, twist them, and to fabricate conspiracy theories that have been proven to be fabrications. We simply can't trust him, yet he is the one who has engineered a campaign of hatred against Barrett, including several counts of libel. As to the judge's statement about Barrett's credibility as a witness, that statement has been misused by the libeler and those who quote him, as well as others who know about the case. It has gotten far more mileage than warranted. It goes counter to the vast number of very official and notable sources that quote Barrett and Quackwatch in a favorable manner. They realize that the court situation was very specific and only applied there. Barrett was enlisted to testify by a lawyer who had problems, and he didn't do a good job of preparing Barrett for the case. Barrett was also naive in that situation.
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Hello! Voting in the ''']''' is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on {{#time:l, j F Y|{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2024|end}}-1 day}}. All ''']''' are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.


The ] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the ]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose ], ], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The ] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
* When we are dealing with sourcing here, nearly all of the content at Misplaced Pages can be considered "opinion", since one person's absolute fact is another person's opinion, and yet another's lie, depending on their POV when looking at exactly the same information and source. That's why it makes little difference to Misplaced Pages if it's a fact or an opinion, it needs to be sourced unless it's a universally accepted fact like "the sun rises in the east." If it can be contested, it must be sourced. (That's a bit blunt, but that's nearly the case.)


If you wish to participate in the 2024 election, please review ] and submit your choices on the ''']'''. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{tlx|NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. <small>] (]) 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
* I don't not believe that the LEAD can be exempt from policies. We just happen to disagree on the interpretation of those policies, and to how they apply to the list. I'm not alone in that matter. Policies are indeed subject to interpretation and application, whether we like it or not.


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* My first edits here clearly reveal that I had no understanding of what Misplaced Pages was about, and it has changed quite a bit since then. Back then sourcing wasn't even enforced very well. I quickly learned the hard way to change my ways. That's where I started establishing a positive learning curve. I made plenty of mistakes, but when more experienced editors scolded, warned and advised me, I took it to heart. That's the only way to learn here. Seek to avoid conflicts. When your edits or comments are contested or questioned, step back and ask why, rather than defend them. Misplaced Pages will be here tomorrow. There is no deadline, and your edits will only stand if they are impeccable and actively defended by those who are often your opponents. That's consensus editing. It's all about compromise.
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== Administrators' newsletter – December 2024 ==
I doubt that you'll be happy with all I've written, but those are my honest opinions. Even though we disagree, I hope that we can learn to disagree agreeably. -- ] (]) 03:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


] from the past month (November 2024).
:Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
:I am going to comment on some of the points you have made, I don't have that much time right now so please excuse if they come across a bit unpolished.


]
:* Going over your editing history there seems to have been a bit that has been deleted. Your indicate that you came straight from SkepticWiki to here, they also show that you were involved in 'anti-CAM' activism on the internet in general. You concentrate on editing on Barrett, Aspartame and CAM. What I think is happening here is that you see relatively NPOV as 'pro-fringe' POV. Anyone can go over my edit history and see which edits I have made and try to point out which ones exhibit a 'pro-fringe' POV. I think that you hold a view that there is (and should be) a divide between US & THEM, your recent edit to displays an odd use of emotional language in the place which is trying to avoid it, reinforcing that it is 'right' to find it distasteful. I believe that this translates into your interpretation of events as 'Other editors who are pushers of fringe POV recognize you as an ally and they then rally around you and defend you.' denying the possibility that I could in fact have been unfairly treated or could be correct in my statements. Are you saying that for example Hans Adler is a 'pro-fringe' pusher? I also find it odd that in a declared meritocracy you would state and seem to endorse :'You will be judged by the company you keep. That's life here.'


] '''Administrator changes'''
:* Regarding sourcing yes of course, the difference is that opinion must be in-text attributed to source.
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:* I welcome the fact that you have stated that you no longer believe that I am a sock ;) I am going to ask you to refrain from bringing up the SPI issue in the future, and while I respect your right to your opinion I am going to ask you from using words to the effect of POV pusher, pro-fringe or any other loaded characterizations unless you back them up with diffs in the the same post. Failure to respect ] in this regard will force me to take this more formal mediation venues. I would also urge you to take responsibility for your enabling actions and encourage others that would use that terminology to refrain from doing so, or I will see how mediation venues take arguments such as 'enabling personal attacks'. Please do not take this as a 'threat' but understand it as a statement of intent.
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] '''CheckUser changes'''
:* As you have stated that you will abide by RS, not treat the lead as a plausible reason for exemption and thereby acknowledge that QW must be considered by RS/N on its merits per context I see no reason to dwell on the matter of Barrett or QW, I am sure that RS/N is more balanced on the matter than either of us can be considered.
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] '''Guideline and policy news'''
:I look forwards to editing with you in the future, ] (]) 05:35, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
* Following ], the ] has been updated. All former administrators may now only regain the tools following a request at the ] within 5 years of their most recent admin action. Previously this applied only to administrators deysopped for inactivity.
* Following a ], a new speedy deletion criterion, ], has been enacted. This applies to template subpages that are no longer used.


] '''Technical news'''
::PS, I did not deny the SPI, I thought you were referring to a Request for Comments / User. I was not aware of Request For Check User at that time, since I have been informed that this was what you probably meant. ] (]) 05:38, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
* Technical volunteers can now register for the ], which will take place in Istanbul, Turkey. is open from November 12 to December 10, 2024.


] '''Arbitration'''
::: Thanks, and good luck. Sincerely. -- ] (]) 05:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
* The arbitration case '']'' (formerly titled '']'') has been closed.
* An arbitration case titled '']'' has been opened. Evidence submissions in this case will close on 14 December.


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== I have a bad feeling about a sockpuppet ==
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== ''The Signpost'': 12 December 2024 ==
Hi. I think I need some help. I recently opened a discussion on ] regarding some very vitriolic responses to a fairly straightforward AfD discussion . During the process, I was able to read about 1000 words worth of direct conversational speech by the admin who was attacking me ], as well as his policy arguments. Out of nowhere, a new user jumped in with the pared down version of the exact argument the admin (Uncle G) had used with me on the AfD discussion, even though he hadn't voted on it. Upon viewing ], I came across your discussions with him. I don't know if I'm being paranoid or not, but several phrases, including the same weird "staw man" analogy were used by both. The sentence construction is almost identical. As is an almost uncanny resemblance in their attitude and word choice. I could give you more examples, but you did a lot of work on this, and are probably more qualified to let me know if I should pursue this or not. I hate causing conflict like this, but I have a really bad feeling in the pit of my stomach about this.--]<b><i>]</i></b><sup>]</sup>] 18:19, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
: Please disregard the above comment. This does not require any action on your part. The most likely explanation is that I simply overreacted to what was happening to me personally, and looked for an external cause to blame. I have already apologized to Unomi for dragging him into what turned out to be a very poorly-chosen battle regarding an AfD discussion. Please feel free to disregard my earlier comments, and I apologize for wasting your time. --]<b><i>]</i></b><sup>]</sup>] 02:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


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<small>Delievered by ] (]) at 19:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)</small>
: Yes, we've known that he was accused of lying since Spring, but now he has actually confessed. Nice! Giuliani has some unsavory Russian intelligence accomplices in his efforts to cover-up Trump's misdeeds and cast the blame on others, such as Biden and Ukraine. Nasty business. Our content that says that "no evidence of wrongdoing by Joe Biden has been found" (paraphrase) is still accurate. -- ] (]) (PING me) 19:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
BTW, your sharp mind is needed at ]. -- ] (]) (PING me) 19:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)


:I'll check it out when I have some time. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 20:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
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"The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community."
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.... is all that is required in the flood geology article. No preaching. No bad quotes. No misinformation. Science is merely a method of understanding the universe as it is, it doesn't require protection by forcefully taking down its enemies. --] (]) 01:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
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: I haven't been involved in very many of those types of disputes, but the ones I have been involved with have ended up with bloat, per your concerns, largely because of a created need. PS editors struggle to get their ideas incorporated as fact and fight tooth and nail, thus causing other editors to find sources to contradict them, and it then goes into a seesaw back and forth. Too bad. The article then gets larger. If the scientific POV and better sources were all that were required, we'd have shorter articles on PS subjects, but NPOV requires coverage of all significant POV, including the views of believers. I have no problem with that, since this is an encyclopedia like no other. The relatively new Fringe guidelines and PS ArbCom rulings have attempted to tame the situation somewhat. We'll see what happens in the future. ] (]) 01:36, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
::In my opinion, the articles get larger simply because the anti-pseudoscientists freak out and attempt to refute every point. That's not necessary. The pseudoscience is merely reported as what is reported. The scientists don't attempt to refute every point, and trying to make it seem as if they had is what leads to the bloat. It also detracts from the factual nature of the scientific reportings. And the biggest problems tend to arise in non-pseudoscience articles, like the insane pressure pushing to get an anti-homeopathy platform posted in the belladonna article. I can't believe that anything arbcom decides will amount to helping making en.wiki better, particularly this arbcom. NPOV requires coverage of all significant POV is usually bent to allow very minor POV into articles. Significant means just that. --] (]) 01:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


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  • Ashe Schow (November 25, 2015). "Misplaced Pages founder advocates for updating policies following 'The Hunting Ground' controversy". Washington Examiner. Retrieved February 8, 2020. Another editor, whose username is BullRangifer, suggested Misplaced Pages not become "a kangaroo court or lynching" by rushing to ban accounts who break COI. BullRangifer suggested following seven steps to determine whether "The Hunting Ground" crew member should be banned and whether his edits should be removed. Some of the steps included how he handled questions related to his edits and whether he stuck to discussion pages to ask for edits rather than making them himself.
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  • Raymond Sturman (October 23, 2024). "Top 5 Editing Conflicts in Misplaced Pages Pages on Religion". World Religion News. Retrieved October 24, 2024. Located on the Catholic Church Misplaced Pages talk page, the screenshot below details a recent discussion of the tension between the Roman Catholic Church and other branches of Catholicism. Editor 'Valjean' is protesting that the word 'Roman' has been removed from the title, arguing that there are other branches of Catholicism, while the Roman Catholic Church says it is the real Catholic Church.
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Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:33, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

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That was kind of sweet

"Now, last time you talked to Slate, you had an update for Misplaced Pages. Do you have any further updates for Misplaced Pages that you would like to share? No, I don’t. But that was one of my favorite moments on Twitter of all time. That was amazing." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah! The Emily St. John Mandel situation. I have forgotten most of it, so had to look again. I hope she feels justice was finally done here. I still believe we should allow mention of the controversy over Misplaced Pages's failure. We normally do it as it's clearly notable enough for mention. Our added failure to even mention it is a clear case of censorship to protect Misplaced Pages's reputation, and that's just wrong. In one breath we have a policy that says Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTCENSORED, and in the next we actually censor it for the worst possible reason. That example makes me ashamed to be a wikipedian. Consensus can be wrong.
What is that Twitter moment she mentions? Do you have info on that or a link to a tweet? https://x.com/emilymandel -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
My reading is when she tweeted "Interview me please!" and Slate said "sure". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
That makes sense. It worked. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Tim Ferriss

Hi Valjean, I'm working to update Tim Ferriss's page with details about his philanthropic work in the field of psychedelic research. I see that you're a member of WP:ALTMED, so I hope that you will consider implementing my edit request on the Talk page. I would love your help. Thank you! Coyoteadventures (talk) 14:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Notification

See Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard#Ellen G. White. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Destiny (streamer) revert

@ValijeanCan you elaborate on why Fox News is not credible but other outlets are? Destiny made very extreme remarks regarding the Trump assassination attempt as clearly stated in a Piers Morgan: Uncensored episode. Are you suggesting I include the YouTube video as a source as well? – Brenr 17:09, September 21, 2024 (UTC) – Brenr 17:09, September 21, 2024 (UTC) 17:09, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Valijean I've adjusted the source to YouTube. Let's not revert that. I can find additional sources so it's incompliance with Misplaced Pages's standards. – Brenr 17:14, September 21, 2024 (UTC)
Why do you even ask such a question? Are you unaware of the extreme biases of Fox News and how it broadcasts falsehoods and deception all the time? We limit its use, especially regarding BLP assertions. If Destiny is really far-left, then there will be multiple mainstream RS that say so. The article already includes multiple descriptions of Destiny's political views. Your YouTube primary source isn't good either. It doesn't even describe him as far-left. You need multiple mainstream, secondary, RS that say it. This is BLP stuff, so we're very careful and delete immediately until better sourcing is provided. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
A YouTube video is an original source, which is sufficient. A valid source doesn't need to be one that is from a publisher with a pundit who describes him as extreme. He has demonstrated that by his own words, which is absolutely sufficient as a source. Also, where are you getting this idea that left-wing media outlets would publish articles claiming Destiny is far left when the outlets themselves have a left leaning? – Brenr 17:30, September 21, 2024 (UTC)
YouTube is a primary source we are cautious about using, especially for BLP claims. I use it to back up what RS already say. That's a legitimate use of primary sources. That he might express views that are typically far-left isn't good enough. That's our own POV about what he says. We need secondary RS that expressly say it. If it's that difficult to find such sources, then it doesn't belong in the article. BTW, I have no previous knowledge of either Destiny or Tim Pool. I don't usually listen to podcasts or YouTube channels for such content. I use YouTube for music, and YouTube Premium is well worth the cost. You can read about my media diet. I occasionally hear an episode of The David Pakman Show because my wife shares it with me. She likes him, and he doesn't rant and rave. He seems clearly left-wing and progressive, and not far-left. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:49, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Tim Ferriss - Career section

Hi Valjean, Thanks so much for you help on Tim Ferriss's page. Would you be willing to look at the new edit request I posted about adding to the Career section? I would really appreciate it. Thank you! Coyoteadventures (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:15, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Thank you so much! Coyoteadventures (talk) 15:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

thank you for undoing my edit to Big lie! I didn't realize it was a quote and will be more careful next time :) xRozuRozu (t • c) 04:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
You're very welcome, and thank you. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

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A cup of coffee for you!

Keep seeing your diligent work on Steele dossier pop up on my watchlist. Andre🚐 22:20, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Thanks! So nice to have you back. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Tim Ferriss - additional updates

Hi Valjean, You have been so helpful on Tim Ferriss's page. I added one more edit request to the Talk page with ideas for the Early life and Personal life sections as well as the lead. I would love it if you would take a look - Talk:Tim_Ferriss#Additional_updates_to_the_page. I'm grateful for your assistance. Thank you! Coyoteadventures (talk) 15:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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on communication in different societies

As a New Yorker, I think the truism or the stereotype of learned experience is a dangerous and powerful thing. Universality can also be a delusion at times, but consider empiricism, a topic I know we both cherish. Many things about the universe are counter-intuitive and sometimes even irrational, like quantum mechanics. Yet we still sometimes harbor the delusion of a Newtonian universe. We also inhabit a reality tunnel. Map-territory relation is a fraught topic. What I mean by all of this abstract stuff is that it's better not to generalize even though obviously different societies are different. For example, in low-content or high-context societies, for example, I recently had the occasion to work with a lot of international folks from the Scandinavian region. There's a bluntness that I can appreciate, very different from say, Japan, where it's expected to imply or skirt around certain things. Yes, Israelis also have their own type of communication and some if it is a stereotype, but how can you argue with one's internalized lived experience? Yet, we must, because it can cause to make generalizations go beyond the scope or local minimum which they apply in. As a New Yorker, I've always seen other New Yorkers put themselves out there to help anyone who needs it, and work together as a city to heal or help communities, yet you would hear the stereotype that New Yorkers aren't "nice." Yet, "Minnesota nice" people will tell you that their pleasantries are passive aggression. What's better?

A writer like Gil Troy is reliable. I challenge you to find any errors in his books on Israel and Zionism. Sure, he has a POV, but he's not Dershowitz or Karsh. And there's nothing really that wrong with Karsh either, but he doesn't make any illusion of showing where he's coming from. That doesn't mean he can't be used for facts, since we apparently think it's ok to use an anthropologist, Nadia abu el Haj, on an article about genetics, or we'll use an economist instead of a historian as on the Zionism article. There's a problem on Misplaced Pages in that we have inconsistently applied, in some cases leading to presumed-unintentional cherrypicking, when it comes to a number of issues about international politics. In fact, I would challenge anyone who thinks there aren't many problems with Misplaced Pages's coverage of international politics to actually spend some time thoughtfully compiling a source survey of the top Ivy League or Cambridge/Oxford/Stanford/MIT/and similar caliber academics and how they treat international politics, versus some of the academics that end up getting used on Misplaced Pages but are objectively less pedigreed - maybe not fringe per se, but definitely in a specific niche.

How are you feeling about tonight? I'd say about D 342 is my prediction and a trifecta is looking quite possible if NE-Sen, MT, and/or OH have a D night. House also looks good, as 3 of the R-to-D flips are already priced in by the NYT, and Oracle Pelosi has graced us with her aligning view. Andre🚐 21:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for butting in uninvited, but I ended up here by happenstance & felt the need to reply.
On a somewhat cursory glance of his writings, I would not consider Gil Troy a reliable source as he is rather prone to errors.
In WHY I AM A ZIONIST he writes that "Israel has been falsely accused of ...withholding vaccines from Palestinians" despite that being a real issue (He also cites his own opinion article) He also states "Israel has no legislation based on race" on the pretext that race = "appearance, blood, presumed biology or skin color", which ignores the social aspect of race as a concept. He then uses this as justification for his later reasoning -
"Security-based distinctions may keep Israelis and Palestinians apart but that’s not apartheid, a race-based, skin-color-driven form of legal discrimination." (I'm not commenting on if Israel does or does not practice apartheid, only that he does not understand what the word means, thus failing to properly counter the accusation).
Then, in his book, The Essential Guide To October 7th And Its Aftermath, he references posters saying “Rape Is Resistance and “Babies Are Occupiers Too… Free Palestine by Any Means Necessary.”, but what he is referencing are obviously fake stickers spread online by an outrage grifter named Oil London.
He does not do his research & he does not care for accuracy.
Again, apologies for this potential tirade, I'm not outright objecting to your point or mean any offense to you, but I felt the need to point out issues with Gil Troy specifically. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 00:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

My reply to both of you is that I don't know who Troy is and haven't considered him in anything I've said. What I said at the Zionism article was generalities and principles. I have not been active in the Middle East topics area and have no desire to get into that quagmire and quicksand. I suspect it has a lot of tricky aspects, just like the gender and LGBTQ topics, and one can easily offend and be misunderstood. I have seen too many good editors blocked because of it in both areas. I am not an expert and have a lot to learn, so I appreciate all input. Feel free to teach me.

My father and brothers have traveled in those areas, while I have only visited Lebanon for ten days in 1996. We stayed with our new family in Beirut. My wife's nephew met a Christian Lebanese girl in England, and we were invited to the wedding. The food and hospitality were amazing! Super healthy and tasty. We love garlic, so got lots of it. It was a different party and restaurant every night. We chartered a bus for the whole family and toured the country. That was quite the experience. As we got further and further south in the Beqaa Valley, stopping at checkpoint after checkpoint, the signs on buildings got more and more ominous. I was the only American, and I was warned, for good reason, to not let my nationality be known. The signs showed huge caricatures of American soldiers with alligator heads with Arabic babies in their mouths, with lots of blood. At one checkpoint, the driver refused to go any further, with the explanation that we were getting too far into Hezbollah territory and could risk becoming hostages. Yes, it sounded like a good idea to get out of that area! Further south was the area from which Hezbollah shoots their rockets into northern Israel. Every day Israeli jets buzzed Beirut, with loud sonic booms and generally spreading terror, because they would also shoot at targets. We saw on TV a little knoll in the Beqaa Valley that had a Syrian tank on it. An Israeli jet blew it up, and that was just on the other side of the coastal range from where we were. This was very different from peaceful Denmark! It turned out that this was normal for peacetime. There were no active conflicts at the time, so this was just the usual way that Israel treated Lebanon. I would love to visit Israel, but with Lebanon stamped in my passport, that would have been out of the question. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I brought up Troy as an example of a reliable Zionist historian since you (Valjean) said that Zionist historians exaggerate. I'm sure that some Zionist historians do, but Troy is reliable. Responding to Butterscotch - is he a friend of yours? - Israel does give vaccines to the Palestinians, Troy's opinion on the appropriateness of the word apartheid is hardly impeaching his credibility, and your example of some kind of outrage grifter doesn't negate the fact that there are very real activists espousing those messages in addition to presumed trolls. Nothing in Buttscotch's thread is any kind of indictment or critique of Troy. Troy happens to be Canadian and is not Israeli. But there are also a number of reliable Israeli historians. Andre🚐 00:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't really know @Valjean, as I said, I got here by happenstance, more specifically, I misclicked & my curiosity got the best of me.
The point of how Israel is now handling vaccines though, is irrelevant considering what/when Troy was referring to, Covid-19, where that was an issue.
I was not commenting on his opinion of how appropriate the word apartheid was, but rather that he either 1) didn't have the wherewithal to check what the accusation he sought to deny meant, or 2) he purposefully sought to mislead the reader as he repeatedly emphasizes his incorrect understanding of race to dismiss the argument. (I'm trying to practice good faith in my analysis of his work, so I'll stick with 1).
My "example of some kind of outrage grifter" is important because the only place I can find of any evidence showing posters or stickers with that message are from a bunch of grifters on twitter who peddle in disinformation. (If you can find actual protesters saying either “Rape Is Resistance" or “Babies Are Occupiers Too", please let me know so I can condemn them & block them) It's important because it would show that he doesn't scrutinize or verify his sources. It also didn't help that he didn't actually cite any info for that book, so its contents remain academically useless.
It's fine for him to be highly opinionated, but his inability to properly fact check his sources to support those opinions leave him as a sub-par writer, especially for such a contentious topic.
There should be enough actually academic Zionist scholars to cite anyway, so I don't feel we'd be at much of a loss not using him.
...And, I seem to've typed out another wall of text, sorry for that. Also, apologies to Valjean for having my words clutter your page. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 01:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
That's a ridiculous assumption that because you couldn't personally verify something, you believe that is evidence that Troy doesn't fact check his sources and is a sub-par writer. He's an academic and a respected published author and historian. Andre🚐 01:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Well if I can't verify the claim, and he doesn't cite anything, its validity should be considered questionable. He's also an American presidential historian, not a Zionist historian (should've brought that up earlier), so his academic credentials are unrelated to his activism.
Are you going to acknowledge anything else that I wrote? Also, should we take this to a different page as to not further bother Valjean? Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 01:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Actually I'd rather drop it. You haven't made any reasonable arguments. Troy is a historian of Zionism as well as other types of history. If Valjean wants to respond to any of this, he can, or not. I was responding to something Valjean wrote, as far as I know there isn't any editing issue that you and I have to discuss. Valjean is one of my friends here. But I unfortunately found a lot of problems with the recent statement he made on Zionism. I do not think I could find common ground with you on this, and you've done little to disabuse me of that. Troy is reliable, but I also haven't at any time cited anything to him in an article. If I ever do and you revert that, we can discuss it then, until then, I don't think we have anything to discuss further right now. Andre🚐 03:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind you holding your conversation here. I'm learning from it! Andre, please explain what problems you found with my comments. I'm sure I can learn more. My opinion there is neither my full POV (whatever the fuck that might be!) nor necessarily well-informed, hence my desire to hear your opinion. (It would also help me to know your background. Jewish?... or use email) I have a pathologically insatiable desire to always be learning, hence my love for editing here and watching Jeopardy!. (Feel free to improve my article Strategies and skills of Jeopardy! champions.) -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it's been a matter of public record on wiki so I don't mind saying that my great-grandparents came to America fleeing the pogroms in the Russian Empire and Eastern Europe. I tend not to agree with my more right-wing family members but most American Jews are quite progressive and believe it's OK to criticize the current right-wing government of Israel and the high civilian death tolls. It's also the case that Hamas uses human shields and puts hostages in civilian areas or with journalists or military installations in hospitals. There are many problematic tropes and misinformation, such as those who accuse Israel of intentionally trying to wipe out the Palestinian population, a population that has only continued to grow, nothing like the Holocaust during which 6 million Jews were killed and the population still hasn't recovered. Arab citizens in Israel can vote, own land, and serve in the parliament. Most of the Jewish population of Israel, only about half of which is European, went there because they had nowhere else to go after persecution in Europe and the Middle East/North African areas that became inhospital and expelled or otherwise persecuted their Jews in the aftermath of 1948. The US did not accept many Jewish refugees in the 1930s and 1940s. That doesn't mean the Palestinian refugees didn't also in many cases get a raw deal and it's fair to criticize the West Bank settlers that often flout international law and exist an extralegal area. Still, on 10/7, Hamas unprovoked invaded Israeli territory attacking and slaughtering civilians. Hezbollah has also been launching rockets into Israel. Israel has a right to defend itself and it has a right to exist within the historical borders that the entire international community voted for and ratified. Believing in that doesn't mean condoning ethnocentrism or ethnically targeted policy. Unfortunately, that was a reality for many places including the United States especially in the 1930s and earlier. There is also a progressive left in Israel and it's a country that has given us many medical and technological advances, not to mention a permissive and tolerant, and democratic culture. The portrayal of the country as a colonial oppressor similar to South Africa is not apt. Andre🚐 05:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
We agree. The whole situation is just so sad. Why can't people get along? Ask Isaac and Ishmael! It started with them, and their descendants are doomed to always be at war. To complicate matters, the state of Israel is also used as a pawn in international political intrigues and is used as a proxy, whether it likes it or not. The specter of Armageddon always hangs over the region. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, it's global chess games, and unfortunately there is collateral damage and innocents in the crossfire. All we can do is try to educate and deradicalize people. Sadly, a lot of our current day progressives have forgotten some of the important and hard-won lessons. Andre🚐 05:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
On a different topic, what about the Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation mess? What is to prevent Trump from doing the same and going after any editors here who include anything negative in his articles? We have about two months before our freedoms can get attacked, so we should enjoy this respite. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Definitely don't defame anyone onwiki. I agree. It's a worrisome development. But also, I think I'm a 2024 truther. Let's see the final counts and any cured mail-in ballots. Biden wasn't declared winner in 2020 until Saturday. The numbers were so far off from the polls such as the Seltzer poll in Iowa, and DeJoy is still postmaster. Trump always projects and accuses his opponents of what he's guilty of. But you'll notice nobody has mentioned "stopping the steal" or any rigged ballot counts in the last 36 hours. Andre🚐 05:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Interesting stuff. The election needs to play out and be curated. It needs a complete and thorough post mortem. I have a hard time believing that the Russians, who fully penetrated most electoral systems in most states, didn't use that knowledge to benefit Trump this time around. That makes no sense, so they likely did have a finger or two in the works somewhere. Being as dishonest as he is, I'm always suspicious of him. He would be a failure, by his own standards, if he missed a chance to cheat, and even though he is a huge failure in just about every area of life, cheating is one area where he excels. This was just too "clean". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Any idea why Ivanka Trump patented a "voting machine" in China in 2018? I've tried to find more info, but I can't. She applied for the patent in 2016, which seems weird. I was just reading Victoria Collier's wild 2012 essay in Harper's. I wonder how many people know that US voting machine companies are owned by Republicans? As late as 2020, NBC News was reporting that many of these machines made by these same companies are not certified by the U.S. Election Assistance Commission even though the companies who sell them falsely claim they are. Viriditas (talk) 23:34, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Andre🚐 01:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The Signpost: 6 November 2024

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Please sign the Misplaced Pages:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation

Misplaced Pages:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Email

I got your email, but I see it's already been dealt with. However, I may consult the blocking administrator about the block. To block such a large range for the specified reason is, in my opinion, highly questionable. Not long ago I was affected by a similar block, but global. I actually had no problem editing English Misplaced Pages, because I'm an administrator, but I was blocked from all other Wikimedia projects, which was very annoying. JBW (talk) 20:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Article for The Tim Ferriss Show

Hi Valjean, a few months ago you were very helpful to me in making updates to the Tim Ferriss article. Now I'm trying to create an article for Tim's podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show. I'd love it if you could take a look at the draft I have posted here. Would you consider moving it to main space?

Thank you, Coyoteadventures (talk) 14:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The Signpost: 18 November 2024

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

The Signpost: 12 December 2024

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You see this?

Andre🚐 19:39, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we've known that he was accused of lying since Spring, but now he has actually confessed. Nice! Giuliani has some unsavory Russian intelligence accomplices in his efforts to cover-up Trump's misdeeds and cast the blame on others, such as Biden and Ukraine. Nasty business. Our content that says that "no evidence of wrongdoing by Joe Biden has been found" (paraphrase) is still accurate. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

BTW, your sharp mind is needed at Talk:E._Jean_Carroll_v._Donald_J._Trump#"Falsely_stated"??. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I'll check it out when I have some time. Andre🚐 20:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

Happy First Edit Day!

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The Signpost: 24 December 2024

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