Talk:Chip Berlet: Difference between revisions

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			== "verification failed"? ==

			Here's the text from Wilcox that supports the section that somebody deleted:
	I note that there has been a minor fuss in the article over the use of the word "fringe." I would propose that in the interest of compliance with Misplaced Pages policy on weasel terms, the word "fringe" should simply be eliminated from this article (which has been dominated by Chip's POV posse if not Cberlet himself.) It could certainly be argued that a number of chip's perennial targets enjoy more respect and support around the world than Chip himself does, so for the article to routinely brand all of Chip's opponents as "fringe" this and that, without making a similar observation about Chip, is unacceptably POV. Better to just drop the term altogether. --] 14:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

			Although mainstream figures are legitimately concerned with the LaRouche organization, a good number of his harshest detractors come from extremist ranks themselves. A writer who has spent considerable time on LaRouche is John Foster "Chip" Berlet, of Political Research Associates (PRA) in Boston. His articles on LaRouche go back into the 1970s. Berlet is also a veteran of the 1960s student left, and currently serves as the National Lawyers Guild (NLG) representative to the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation. Harvey Klehr confirms:
	AGREED. Well stated, ]. Not many people in America know who Chip Berlet is, or have heard of him. Lyndon LaRouche has far more name recognition. I think there is some Berlet-LaRouche battle going on on Misplaced Pages. I have read through various talk pages covering it. They are interesting discussions, but it seems that some of the battles date back to the 1970's and early 1980's, which is quite a long time ago. Nonetheless, Chip Berlet is more "fringe" than Lyndon LaRouche to the majority of Americans and the English speaking world, as LaRouche has more name recognition by a long shot. Let's drop the term altogether, or be consistent in applying it. Working for "]" magazine is pretty fringe if you ask me. ] 21:22, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

			"The NLG is an affiliate of the Soviet-controlled International Association of Democratic Lawyers (IADL), founded in 1946. Expelled from France in 1949, the IADL is now headquartered in Brussels.Over the years it has supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan.The American Association of Jurists, the regional affiliate of the IADL, is headquartered in Havana.Its president, Ann Fagan Ginger, is a long-time NLG activist." 31
	::OK, how about "convicted crook and neofascist" instead of fringe for LaRouche? --] 01:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

			In 1987, when Berlet moved with his organization to Boston from Chicago, the Chicago Area Friends of Albania gave him a special sendoff, noting that, "Chip was one of our founding members, and a steadfast friend of Albania through thick and thin." <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	**OK, How about "pot-smoker and High Times Magazine employee: instead of fringe for Chip Berlet? ] 18:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

			::evidence that the National Lawyers Guild "supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan"? There isn't any, because they didn't.
	::::This is an encyclopedia, not a debating forum, so your flippant comments are not helpful. In any case, writing one article for a magazine hardly qualifies a writer as an employee. Was he a staff writer? -] 21:14, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

			:This is synthesis. The source does not say that Berlet was doing anything extremist. It says he was a member of a group, then it says that the group was doing certain things. Which does not mean that Berlet was doing those things. ] (]) 15:59, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
	:::::He was Washington, D.C. bureau chief. --] 21:01, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
	::::::If you've got a source for that we should include it in the article. -] 22:07, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

			::No, it isn't, Binksternet. The copy that you've twice deleted summarizes the point that George and Wilcox make, though it should probably be reworded for clarity. Whether or not Berlet was actively ''doing all the things'' that the NLG and CAFA were doing is irrelevant. He was a member of the organizations which is what the deleted copy states.] (]) 18:15, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

	:::Is HK meant to be posting here? I thought he was banned from talk pages as well as articles, though perhaps this one isn't included. Chip's name is well known among journalists, who make up a large percentage of the people who use Political Research Associates as a source. He's not seen as a fringe journalist at all. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 02:12, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

	::::It is certainly fair to say that Chip Berlet hails from the far left wing of the political spectrum, so if coming from an extreme such as that makes one "fringe" the term is just as fairly applied to this article's subject as it is to anyone he criticizes. HK and DannyZz are correct on this one regardless of what one thinks of the LaRouchies - abide by NPOV and that means dropping the weasel terms unless you're willing to apply them to everybody. As to Berlet being "well known" among journalists, a Lexis-Nexis search of full texts for major U.S. newspapers in their holdings over the past '''two years''' shows his name appearing in a grand whopping total of just 11 articles. One of them is an opinion piece he himself co-authored and submitted to the op-ed page of a paper. In the remaining 10 his name is regularly qualified by the terms including "progressive" and "radical left wing" and descriptions of his group as a liberal organization that monitors the right/conservatives/christian fundamentalists etc. A search for "Political Research Associates" over the last two years similarly produces only 8 articles, most of them the same ones pulled up by the Berlet search. As a point of comparison, the SPLC's hit count for the past two years in the same database is 307. For SPLC's main spokesmen Mark Potok gets 58 and Morris Dees gets 60. Elsewhere in the political left's "civil rights" crowd Julian Bond gets 400, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton each get over 1,000, Kweisi Mfume gets 443, and Louis Farrakhan gets 324. For that matter even Quanell X of the neo-Black Panther party outnumbers Berlet's cites some five times over with 56 hits in the last two years! If anything Berlet's a minor figure in a big pond of liberal "civil rights" activists. To pretend that he's some sort of widely respected and quoted mainstream journalism figure is simply a delusion. That's not to say that he shouldn't have an article - only that the article should not exhibit a pro-Berlet POV and should not be a case example of a "legend in his own mind" syndrome. ] 03:11, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

			:::The deleted copy says that Berlet was a member, and then it tries to implicate Berlet with things that the organization did. This gets Berlet's involvement quite wrong. For instance, the Chicago Area Friends of Albania is a group Berlet co-founded so that he could support the Albanian people, who were going through a rough time. He researched the problem of political repression in Albania through his group contacts. Berlet worked against anti-democratic Stalinists through the group, a fairly centrist stance which is exactly opposite of what your text is trying to imply: that he is an extremist. ] (]) 06:34, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
	==Laird Wilcox==
	It seems Mr. Berlet said publicly, "Laird Wilcox is not an accurate or ethical reporter"; can the allegation of not being ethical be substantiated. ] 19:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

			::::Binksternet, your beef apparently has more to do with the George/Wilcox "take" on Berlet in the first place than on the editorial summary of that take (though, on second glance, I don't see where George and Wilcox ''directly'' call the "Friends of Albania" a Communist front). So your contention here is less about ] or ] than it is about the reliability of George/Wilcox. Do you have anything here beyond your own ] with which to impeach George and Wilcox? ] (]) 15:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
	:Quoted in published article by Robert Stacy McCain, "Researcher Says 'Watchdogs' Exaggerate Hate Group Threat," THE WASHINGTON TIMES, May 9, 2000, http://home.att.net/~r.s.mccain/wilcox.html. That took 30 seconds on Google, Nobs, this is just petty harassment.--] 19:57, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
			:::::The material that was deleted doesn't make any particular allegations about the groups that Berlet belonged to, it simply says he was a member. The source says unambiguously that Berlet "comes from extremist ranks." ] (]) 15:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
	:Mr. Berlet said it; the question is what evidence is there (a) to support the statement (b) to republize it. ] 20:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
			::::::Wilcox and George do not describe any activities of Berlet with regard to the groups he has been associated with. They do not say Berlet supported the Soviets (which he did not). They do not say that Berlet was anything but a guy coming from the extreme left: {{quotation\|1=Although mainstream figures are legitimately concerned with the LaRouche organization, a good number of his harshest detractors come from extremist ranks themselves. A writer who has spent considerable time on LaRouche is John Foster "Chip" Berlet, of Political Research Associates (PRA) in Boston. His articles on LaRouche go back into the 1970s. Berlet is also a veteran of the 1960s student left, and currently serves as the National Lawyers Guild (NLG) representative to the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation.}}
			::::::After that bit, Wilcox and George write further about the NLG, but without mentioning Berlet: {{quotation\|1=Harvey Klehr confirms: "The NLG is an affiliate of the Soviet-controlled International Association of Democratic Lawyers (IADL), founded in 1946. Expelled from France in 1949, the IADL is now headquartered in Brussels. Over the years it has supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan. The American Association of Jurists, the regional affiliate of the IADL, is headquartered in Havana. Its president, Ann Fagan Ginger, is a long-time NLG activist."}}
			::::::Wilcox and George quote a party invitation which says that Berlet was "a steadfast friend of Albania through thick and thin", which he was—a friend to the Albanian people, not to the repressive Soviet-controlled Albanian government.
			::::::Finally, Wilcox and George wind up with a damning indictment of LaRouche groups, saying that the groups have a "primary evil" in "how they treat their opponents and in the vision they maintain of the civil liberties of all Americans. Here the antidemocratic and anti-civil libertarian nature of LaRouche and his followers is manifest, and it is primarily on these grounds that they should be opposed."
			::::::Thus we cannot synthesize a position not taken overtly by Wilcox and George. As well, we cannot misrepresent Wilcox and George as being opposed to Berlet rather than being opposed to the LaRouche organization. ] (]) 16:53, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

			:::::::The fact that Wilcox and George oppose the Larouche cult can certainly be included in a reworked edit but so, OBVIOUSLY, should Berlet's membership in the ]. That's the primary evidence Wilcox and George present for Berlet being "a guy coming from the extreme left." There's no synthesis here at all. ] (]) 17:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
	::We're quoting Chip Berlet. It's a quote. I hope you're always this meticulous, Nobs. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 19:24, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

			:::::::Klehr is quoted about how the NLG is "an affiliate" of the IADL, with the only stated connection being Ann Fagan Ginger's activism in both the IADL and NLG. Nothing here says the NLG is extremist. In fact, most observers call the NLG liberal, progressive or leftist—a much milder position. Berlet's involvement in the NLG is as a liaison to the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation, a group formed to fight McCarthyism. Wilcox and George leave the reader wondering whether it was Berlet's 1960s activism which deserves the label "extremist", or his later NLG membership. We cannot decide ourselves what makes him "extremist" when it is not clear. ] (]) 18:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
	==Photo==
			:::::::::My re-write was much closer to the source than Binksternet's. And why am I receiving a warning on my personal talk page about "Edit warring" from the guy who has undone every one of my edits? Is that the pot calling the kettle black? ] (]) 18:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
	The color photo and the B/W photos were taken about the same date, and the publicity shot is clearer and a better photo. The color photo is not fair use. It has been filshed without permission or proper credit. It does not belong on Misplaced Pages. The B/W photo has an explicit permission for use on Misplaced Pages. Please stop playing these stupid games with the photos. It is childish.--] 12:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

			::::::::::Those warnings are just Binksternet being Binksternet. As for the substance here, the whole reason for George and Wilcox bringing up Berlet's NLG membership is to demonstrate Berlet's own radical, front-organization roots; as you might put it, Gators, "the pot calling the kettle black." ] (]) 18:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
	:The "Age of Aquarius" studio shot that presently graces this article, makes the article look like a commercial promo for Chip's business venture. I think it would be more encyclopediac to use this . --] 21:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

			:::the description of the National Lawyers Guild and Berlet's connection with it is entirely scurrilous, repeating shopworn lies first circulated by Joseph McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover, whom the NLG opposed. While the NLG certainly defended victims of McCarthyism, including communists, to say that it is or was an arm of the Soviet government is false. Moreover, the assertion that they supported the soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia is pure fabrication. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:36, 22 August 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::This is an article about Berlet, and we have a photograph of him on the page already. No need to replace it with one of your propaganda shots showing him with someone else. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 22:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

			== Secondary sources and BLP problems ==
	:::"Propaganda shots"? Please explain. --] 22:27, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

			This article was substantially cleaned up during the spring, but now it's creeping back to being a mirror site for Berlet's own websites. If Berlet said something worth putting in Misplaced Pages, it will also be covered in secondary sources, so people should stop putting in stuff sourced only to Berlet. This is particularly the case for Berlet's accusations against public figures, even LaRouche: BLP policy says If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. ] (]) 16:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
	::::You want to make some kind of point, just as Cognition did when she uploaded the distorted photo. You're both arguably ], and it's tiresome, so please stop. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 22:33, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
	:::::Please assume good faith, Slim, as ] requires of you. It's one thing to politely explain why the old photo should be kept, but another to berate people who disagree with you and continuously accuse them of bad faith, so please stop the latter. ] 23:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
	::::::Are you by any chance wikistalking me, Randerdude? I sincerely hope not, given your reputation for activism on that front. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 23:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
	:::::::Since you've apparently forgotten that your effort to prevent me from editing this article failed, I'll simply remind you that I've been a participant in editing here for some time now, Slim. Nor do I intend to abandon this article, thus when you or anybody else starts harassing other people who are editing it you'll likely find me commenting here and directing your attention to the appropriate policies and guidelines. ] 03:47, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
	::::::::Few people familliar with the facts of the case would see it as ''harassment'', I wager. HK's et al. ] and related ] have long been institutionalized into Misplaced Pages. I would advise avoiding further (unresearched) conforntations while your own ] remains ongoing —to avoid the appearence of these being seen as provocations— as ultimately in your best interests. Thanks. ] 05:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
	:::::::::It's funny you mention the link to ], El_C, given its following finding..."6) User:SlimVirgin is cautioned not to make personal attacks, even under severe perceived provocation. Passed 5-1-1." Perhaps she's not the only one who's forgotten that of late. ] 04:34, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
	::::::::::Perhaps the photo was distorted to make Berlet look obese "in good faith" but I doubt it. I'm surprised to hear an editor here saying that everyone is required to assume good faith about the deeds of others, as that same editor has frequently complained about the bad faith of other editors. In fact, ew can only assume good faith until bad faith has been proven. Uploading a distorted photo of a political opponent is a strong indication of bad faith, and given the history of the editor who did so, the assumption of good faith may be misplaced. -] 05:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
	:::::::::::LOL!! Rangerdude, that arbcom ruling has become something of a personal logo for you, hasn't it? I wonder how many times you've quoted it in the last few months. Never mind, you'll soon have one of your own to replace it with. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 04:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

			:It is easy to find third party sources that describe the LaRouchites as antisemitic and anti-Jewish, and LaRouche himself an antisemite, a neofascist, a neonazi, and even a "small time Hitler". It is also easy to find third party sources that describe in detail LaRouche's conviction for financial and tax crimes. That I have written about these facts is itself a fact that is easy to document. What is the issue here?] (]) 17:24, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
	==]==
			::As ] said, third-party sources are needed to establish the notability of your views. If you wrote that your favorite cookies are chocolate chip - well, Misplaced Pages doesn't really care. --] <sup>]</sup> 18:25, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
	Seems Mr. Chip Berlet played an important role in the origins of the ] of 1982—the very Law at the heart of the ].
			:::Or more accurately, since this article is about Chip not LaRouche, to show that his views on LaRouche are significant to this article, which I have now done. ] (]) 20:13, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

			:I agree that if someone said something, that we should use secondary or tertiary sources that report it, as was done with the mention of Ralph Nader. However the claims made about LaRouche are mentioned in ''Hate Crimes: A Reference Handbook'', pp. 88-89, which is already used as a source in the article. I will therefore restore the text and add this source. ] (]) 18:17, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
	From Laird Wilcox, ''The Watchdogs: A Close Look at Anti-Racist "Watchdog" Groups'', Editorial Research Service, 1999, p. 122 (PDF) ISBN 0-933592-89-2:
			::Actually, the citation you used was not from the source per se. It is from a bio of Berlet which appears in the preface, a bio which was probably provided by Berlet. ] (]) 19:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
			:::A ] "is an introduction to a book...written by the work's author." No idea why you not consider prefaces to have the same reliability as the books. Do you have any policies or guidelines? And who cares where sources get their informaton? We expect writers of reliable sources to use judgment, fact-checking, double-sourcing, etc. We ourselves do not do that, but rely on why reliable sources report. ] (]) 21:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	:"Who is ]? He is a renegade Central Intelligence Officer implicated in revealing the names of CIA officials in a manner leading to their endangerment, and in at least one case, that of '''Richard Welch''', their death.124 Agee was deeply involved in the antigovernment ''Counterspy'' magazine, which made a practice of such disclosures. According to an item in ''Security Intelligence'' newsletter:

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:Agee...left the agency in 1968 and began exposing CIA officers and operations through lectures, magazines and books.125

			I have just modified {{plural:1\|one external link\|1 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:Referring to ''Counterspy'', a '']'' editorial asked, "What other result than the killing did Mr. Butz and his colleagues at ''Counterspy'' expect when they fingered Mr. Welch?"126 Butz, incidentally, was on the editorial staff of '']'', along with Chip Berlet and Russ Bellant.127
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050106165725/http://www.uua.org/ga/ga99/418.html to http://www.uua.org/ga/ga99/418.html

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx\|Sourcecheck}}).

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=true}}
	:124 ''Richard S. Welch,''Washington Post, (29 December 1975), p. A16.
	:125 ''To The Surprise Of A Few....,'' Security Intelligence (24 August 1992), 5.
	:126 Welch, Op Cit.
	:127 ''Public Eye Staff,'' The Public Eye (Vol II, Issues 1 & 2, 1979), 3.

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 16:57, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
	Soon thereafter, ] was passed.
			:] (]) 22:02, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	:In 1991 Chip Berlet and Linda Lotz released a revised version of their ''Reading List On Intelligence Agencies and Political Repression''... The list notes that "This is the reading list circulated by Phil Agee at his Speakout lectures."121

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:121 Chip Berlet and Linda Lotz, ''Reading List on Intelligence Agencies and Political Repression'' (NY:National Lawyers Guild Civil Liberties Committee, 1991).

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	And continuing,
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060715145651/http://www.wpunj.edu:80/newpol/issue29/hawkin29.htm to http://www.wpunj.edu/newpol/issue29/hawkin29.htm

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	:U.S. Senator John Chaffee, a ranking member of the Select Committee on Intelligence pointed out in the Congressional Record:

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=true\|needhelp=}}
	::"At the time of the Welch assassination, ''Counterspy'' magazine claimed they had leaked the names of 225 alleged CIA agents. Now, five years later, Louis Wolf of ''Covert Action Information Bulletin'' can boast that he has helped to disclose the names of more than 2,000 American intelligence officers stationed around the world.128 Louis Wolf, incidentally, is listed as being on the advisory board of ] on PRA’s 1999 letterhead.129

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 02:50, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
	:128 ''For The Record,'' Washington Post, 27 July 1980.
			:good work, BotBrain. ] (]) 21:59, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
	:129 Letterhead, Political Research Associates, 1999.

			==Update Request==
	This appears to be one documented corpse associated with Mr. Berlet's "links & ties". ] 02:29, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
			Admitted self-serving request warning:

			https://www.crcpress.com/Trumping-Democracy-From-Reagan-to-the-Alt-Right/Berlet/p/book/9781138212497
	==3 more corpses==
			I have a new edited collection that was just published. :-)

			In penance I will go update a few pages that have no connection to me.
	:On 13 January 1984 an open letter to Judge Charles Sifton entitled “Political Grand Juries Must Be Stopped!” appeared in the New York-based Marxist-Leninist, weekly, ''Guardian''. …Among its signers were Chip Berlet and Jean Hardisty.
			--] (]) 15:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

			:{{re\|Chip.berlet}} seems to be my week to update bibliographies. I'ved added it to your bibliography article. ] ] 17:20, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
	:Other signers included convicted spy ], ] and Arthur Kinoy, attorneys active in the National Lawyers Guild…the Prairie Fire Organizing Committee (PFOC)… May 19th Communist Organization (M19CO), National Lawyers Guild (NLG)... and the ] (YIP).104
			::] 🌹 ] (]) 21:11, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

			::] Thanks ] (]) 21:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
	:The PFOC, formed in 1974, was the publishing arm of the ] Organization (WUO), the terrorist spin-off from ] (SDS).

	:…Judith Clark, now serving a long sentence for murder in the 1981 Brinks armored car robbery undertaken to fund radical leftist activities...

	:The May 19th Communist Organization acquired its notoriety from the role of several members in the attempted holdup of a Brinks armored truck in Nyack, NY, in November 1981 that left two policemen and one security guard dead...

	:Approximately six months later on 11 July 1984 another letter, this time addressed “To All Progressive People,” appeared in the Marxist-Leninist ''Guardian'' weekly...

	:Among the over one hundred signers—a virtual who’s who of the extreme radical left—were Chip Berlet and Jean Hardisty. Other signers included David Gilbert, Kathy Boudin and Judith Clark, all members of the radical Weather Underground organization and all serving prison sentences for the murder of a Brinks armored truck guard in 1981.

	:104 ''Guardian'' (11 January 1984).
	:110 ''Guardian'' (11 July 1984), reprinted in ''Stop The Grand Jury'', John Brown Anti-Klan Committee (November 1984).

	See Laird Wilcox, ''The Watchdogs: A Close Look at Anti-Racist "Watchdog" Groups'', Editorial Research Service, 1999, p. 118, 119. ] 21:05, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

	==continue the body count==

	:"During the 1960s and 1970s the NLG (]) experienced considerable growth with the rise of the radical student movement. Several NLG figures were violent revolutionaries, including… Judith Clark, now serving a long sentence for murder in the 1981 Brinks armored car robbery undertaken to fund radical leftist activities.

	:"An article in a 1981 issue of ''Military Police'' journal detailed the criminal careers of several National Lawyers Guild members as follows:

	::...Carlos Zapata who was killed in Denver by a bomb he was planting at a VFW hall on 22 March 1978. He was...involved in the '''National Lawyers Guild-sponsored ‘Police Crimes Task Force'''.’

	::…Francisco Kiko Martinez, also an attorney, was killed in a car when a bomb they were transporting exploded.<sup>100</sup>

	:"The article by Detective ], a former military police officer who became Officer in Charge, Firearms and Explosives Unit of the Los Angeles Police Department, observes that "The NLG continues to act as a clearinghouse and as an apologist and defender for ] and ]."

	:<sup>100</sup> Sgt. A. McCree, ''A Case For Self-Defense,'' Military Police (Summer 1981).

	Source: Laird Wilcox, , Editorial Research Service, 1999, p. 116-117. ISBN 0-993592-96-5 ] 22:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

	::See also which reads

	:::" has also served as a paralegal on other intelligence abuse and civil liberties cases '''''filed against local police''''', the FBI, CIA and Military Intelligence '''on behalf of''' groups such as the Spanish Action Committee of Chicago, '''National Lawyers Guild'''..." (emphasis added);

	::also Archived comments at ,

	:::"I actually spent several years as a paralegal document analyst for a series of lawsuits aginst the FBI, CIA, Military Intelligence, and local police "Red Squads." ,

	::and

	:::"I mostly researched Chicago, New York, and Detroit, but knew folks who researched the Milwaukee Red Squad. Also, see this list ",

	::with a link to PRA at . ] 21:10, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::Incidentally, Arleigh McRee is honored at the ], killed in the line of duty, 10 June 1997. Richard Welch name is inscribed in CIA's Book of Honor and his star is one of 83 on CIA's Memorial Wall for those who gave thier lives in the line of duty. ] 04:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	==More skeletons in the closet==
	:"On 25 September 1995 the second annual "Midwest Ant-Fascist Network" (MAFNET) held a three-day conference in Columbus, Ohio. Speakers included Chip Berlet as well as:
	::"Rita Bo Brown, former member of the nominally terrorist George Jackson Brigade (JGB). Jackson was killed in August 1970 when his brother attempted to free him from Soledad Prison by bursting in to a Marin County, CA, courtroom handing guns to three convicts and taking five hostages. In the shootout that ensued five people were killed including the judge." ] 03:50, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::I don't see any reference to Rita Bo Brown giving guns to convicts in an escape. Do you have a source please? Thanks, -] 04:28, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::We're discussing Mr. Chip Berlet's links and ties using Mr. Chip Berlet's and ] own methodology. ] 04:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::::Huh? Why is this on the talk page? -] 05:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::::Source: Laird Wilcox, ''The Watchdogs: A Close Look at Anti-Racist "Watchdog" Groups'', Editorial Research Service, 1999, p. 127 . ] 05:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
	::::::::The edits to the text made it appear that Brown was the one who gave the guns, so I added in tha unedited text - pardon me for editing your posting. Again, why is this here? -]05:35, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
	(<--As aptly demonstrated by the body count (including two NLG suicide bombers), Mr. Berlet appears to have "links & ties" to violent and extremist political organizations. ] 05:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::What is your definition of "links and ties"? Some of these appear to be quite tenuous. -] 23:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::Using Mr. Chip Berlet's here,

	::::"Political Research Associates (PRA) is an independent, nonprofit research center that unmasks the US political right. PRA collects and analyzes information on anti-democratic, authoritarian, and racist right-wing movements and publishes educational resources that explain their ideologies, tactics, agendas, financing and '''links to each other'''."

	:::This is the identical language cited in Wilcox, , p. 114-115, which he cites as retrieved from www.guidestar.org./search/, the internet search service of Philantropic Research, Inc., and both appear to be a self-styled discription. Wilcox continues with,

	::::"What this description leaves out is the heavy radical left agenda of PRA itself, including the fact that those “anti-democratic” movements fail to include Marxist-Leninist and extreme leftist movements unless they are in sectarian dispute with PRA. As for the “links to each other,” PRA’s “links” are examined here in detail. "

	:::This is used in the same context of ''both'' Political Research Associates and Mr. Wilcox's report, ''Political Research Associates, A Study in "Links and ties"''. ] 01:53, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	==More disininformation==
	"In order to grasp the apparent affinity both Chip Berlet and Political Research Associates and Leonard Zeskind and the Center for Democratic Renewal had for the now-defunct Marxist-Leninist (and sometime Maoist) publication, ''Guardian'', it may help to know a little of its background...
	launched as the ''National Guardian'' in October 1948 by James Aronson, ] and John McManus...Contributors included pro-Communist writers such as ] and ] It also carried dispatches from ]...

	Burchett is most notorious for his false reports on American germ warfare in the Korean War*...

	Burchett assisted in the extraction of "confessions" from American pilot POWs.

	In 1998, however news reports noted:

	:...documents from Russia's Presidential Archive finally prove, more than four decades after the fact, that the United States was the victim of a disinformation campaign scripted by North Korea, China, and the Soviet Union.

	:A report by ], head ot Soviet intelligence, outlined the deception: "False plague regions were created, burials...were organized, measures were taken to recieve the plague and cholera bacillus."161

	"Whatever the nature of the relationship between Chip Berlet and Political Research Associates and...''Guardian'', it's significant that both parties regularly attempt to "link and tie" opposing individuals and groups with the publications they have written for or were favorably reported in. If one uses the standards suggested by their own writings, their "links" with the ''Guardian'' bear looking into...

	161 Bruce B. Auster, "Unmasking An Old Lie: A Korean War Charge Is Exposed As a Hoax," ''U.S. News & World Report'' (16 November 1998), 52.

	*Editor's note: 15,000 Americans remain ] or unaccounted from the ]; testimony has been given that custody of 15,000 captured American POWs were illegally transferred to the Soviet Union, where they were forced to walk from North Korea to Siberia, and all are presumed to have perished in Siberian ]. ] 04:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	:The purpose of talk pages is to discuss edits, not re-post source material. Is there an edit that this concerns? Thanks, -] 05:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::We need to craft language from this to provide ], so the article will look less like the solicitation and advertising for Chip Berlet and ] than it does now. ] 05:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::"Craft language"? Why would we craft language? We're here to summarize verifiable sources in an NPOV manner. Dumping strangely-edited source material on the talk page might not be the best way to get there. -] 06:17, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::Summarize? You mean just total the body count without supplying context? ] 06:23, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
	:::::What "body count"? Are you implying that Berlet has personally killed people? -] 06:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::::As this source has presented, Mr. Berlet & PRA has links and ties with violent organizations responsible for the deaths of 14 persons, including 2 NLG lawyers that blew themselves up in the midst of terrorist activities. ] 06:28, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
	:::::::"Links and ties"? Apparently in one case that meant speaking at the same symposious as someone who once belonged to a gang, other members of which committed some murders. Is that a link or a tie? If we use those three degrees of separation, every body in this encyclopedia has "ties and links" to those responsible for violent deaths. This is beginning to sound like original reseasrch. -] 06:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::::::It is Mr. Berlet, and PRA's, own methodology. This methodology is (a) what made Mr. Berlet the 'authority' he is today (b) continued practice of both Mr. Berlet and PRA. It the subject of the entire source article. Laird Wilcox applies Mr. Berlet's own standards to Mr. Berlet, and the organizations he is associated with. This may be the only way to give ] to ] and ], given thier acceptance now in some circles as an authority. ] 06:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
	:::::::::We're not PRA. We have a different methodology here, which every editor is expected to follow. It's certainly fine to mention Baird's criticism of Berlet, but if we come up with our own criticisms, or "bodycounts", then we'd be violating our methodology. NPOV requires that we represent all notable points of view, not that we dig up derogatory material. -] 07:03, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
	::::::::::If true, this is certainly a refreshing change of direction. Have you informed Cberlet and SlimVirgin? --] 14:42, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	Nobs - If I may propose a possible solution... One way of handling the factual material you are presenting would be to create a new article about the Guardian publication. It would be appropriate to include cited factual material about this publication on that article. As far as Chip Berlet's affiliations with it go, they could be described in a source NPOV sentence that wikilinks to the Guardian article. I believe the result would satisfy NPOV, WP:CITE and other applicable policies. ] 08:39, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	:Given the current level of interest in the ], the ] article reads,

	::"Some commentators, in fact, say the law was specifically targeted at his actions",

	:directly linked to this,

	::"Referring to '']'', a '']'' editorial asked, "What other result than the killing of ] did Mr. Timothy Butz and his colleagues at ''CounterSpy'' expect when they fingered Mr. Welch?"<sup>126</sup> Butz, incidentally, was on the editorial staff of '']'', along with ] and Russ Bellant.<sup>127</sup>

	::<sup>126</sup> "Richard S. Welch", ''Washington Post'', (29 December 1975), p. A16.
	::<sup>127</sup> Public Eye Staff, ''The Public Eye'' (Vol II, Issues 1 & 2, 1979), 3.

	:Source: Laird Wilcox, , Editorial Research Service, 1999, p. 122-123. ISBN 0-993592-96-5

	:See also John E. Mulligan, ''"Agent-ID bill had its roots in R.I."'', Providence Journal-Bulletin, 22 October 2003

	:This is extremely unusual, that a federal law is passed primarily targeted at the behavior of a few of individuals, Philip Agee, Timothy Butz, Chip Berlet, and Louis Wolf. Also note, Vol II, Issues 1 & 2, 1979 of the ''Public Eye'' has been sanitized from ''The Public Eye''s site. Here is the current list of ''Public Eye'' "Featured Authors" . Given the level of interest, I would suggest the starting point is to complete the '']'' and ] articles to lay some of the foundation of Mr. Berlet's links and ties to violent extremist groups. ] 19:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::See --> ] for testimony on treatment of Korean War prisoners. ] 21:11, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	==body count (cont.)==
	:"In 1983 an issue of ''The Public Eye'' contained a statement by Cathy Wilkerson, a captured fugitive from the ill-fated Weather Underground terrorist bomb factory that blew up in March 1970 killing three people...

	:113 ''The Public Eye'' (Volume IV, Issues 1 & 2, 1983), 20-21. ] 04:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::See .
	:::"Two 1980's homegrown American terrorist groups, one white and one black, join their brutal forces to fund their anti-American causes with the Brink's robbery and cold-blooded murder of New York cops." ] 05:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	== NLG ==
	:"The NLG is an affiliate of the Soviet-controlled International Association of Democratic Lawyers (IADL).... Over the years it has steadfastly supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan.97
	:97 Harvey Klehr, ''Far Left of Center: The American Radical Left Today'' (Transaction Books, New Brunswick, 1988), 161. ] 06:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	::I appreciate that you have a proper cite, but the point is the point you make is neither notable nor is it the defining characteristic of the NLG, which is better known for many other things. I oppose the "which has been described as "an apologist and defender for ] and ]" fragment because it is clearly intended to be inflammatory, not informative. Threatening to add more cites doesn't address that problem. You're going to need to find a more accurate and less inflammatory way to describe the NLG, I'm afraid. Simply tossing out a cite doesn't help you. You need more than a cite to support a fundamentally uninformative, inflammatory statement like that. Make a proper justification for it here or accept that it's contested and does not benefit from consensus ]. ] 06:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::Nobs, I reverted your edit because the source appears to be a police sergeant speaking 24 years ago, and that's not an authoritative source for such a strong statement. See ], which says that the more controversial the edit, the better the source needs to be. Also, it isn't appropriate to tuck this information away in a footnote, and this article uses a References section, not a Notes section. See ] for the need for consistency of citation style within articles. That apart, the sentence would have to read "which has been described as X by Y," to make it clear who is making the claim. Can you find a better source? If this is a commonly held view of the NLG, someone else is bound to have said it, and more recently than 1981. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 06:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::, refers to them as terrorists; all the information is available for reputable sources.
	::::SlimVirgin: Also Arleigh McRee is honored hero at the ], killed in the line of duty fighting domestic terrorism, 10 June 1997; may perhaps tread carefully before we get into the game of trashing sources. ] 06:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::::Nobs, can you say which page the terrorist reference is made in the crimelibrary article, because it's not on the first page and it looks very long (also, is this a good source)? Secondly, whether or not someone is an honored hero is beside the point in terms of whether he's an authoratitive source regarding which groups are to be considered as "terrorists." If this is a widespread view, someone authoritative must have said it: perhaps one of the law societies? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 06:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	(<--<br>SlimVirgin:
	*The story "The Weather Underground & Black Liberation Army" (scroll down & click) is in this from Court TV Crime Library (also, see Categories in green in upper left, "Terrorists, Spies, Assassins, etc"). Court TV's production can be fully qualified, it's purpose is to give contemporaneous background.

	*As to Arleigh McRee, reading this biographical scetch , this courageous hero was not content to sit behind a desk and just write articles in 1981, rolled up his sleeves and was fighting domestic terrorists, defending the lives of innocents, when he was killed defusing a bomb in 1997 (I can barely restrain the tears). He is deserving of his own namespace article, author, hero, sacrificing his life in defence of others.

	*As to the objection "speaking 24 years ago", again the source document gives this direct, relevent context:

	:"A 1981 issue of the publication states unequivocally that 'The Public Eye is produced in conjunction with the National Lawyers Guild Committee Against Government Repression and Police Crimes.' It also lists Chip Berlet as a managing editor.<sup>95</sup> "

	:<small>95</small> ''The Public Eye'', Volume III, Issues 1 and 2 (1981).

	:Source: Wilcox, p. 115.

	*''Both'' citations are from 24 years ago.

	*As has now been aptly documented and demonstrated per ], ], and ], this is direct relevent biographical material, and will be inserted properly into the namespace. ] 19:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	:I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but could you say exactly what you're using Court TV (or crime library or whatever it was) as a source for, and could you please quote the part you are using, quote it exactly, then tell me exactly where I can find it (not linking to an article with 27 pages or whatever it was)? Because I currently can't see what you mean.
	:Regarding using a sergeant as a source from 1981, I don't feel happy about that, because it's not what anyone would call an authoritative source. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 19:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	::(A) I am not proposing using any material from the Court TV source (yet); I present it here in Talk to give some background to the issues raised in Laird Wilcox's Report . (Of course, material from Court TV, or other ]'s could be used if the ] article needs to be expanded because of an unwillingness or read the Wilcox material). (B) fully qualifies McCree, and resistance to this material can devour time, but will ultimately fail. The question is how much of the Wilcox material needs to inserted into Chip Berlet namespace to present ]. ] 19:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	===wording===
	Proposed text:
	*"Berlet is former vice-president of the ], which has been described as "an apologist and defender for ] and ]".{{NamedRef\|116\|2}} A 1981 issue of ''The Public Eye'' states that it is "produced in conjunction with the National Lawyers Guild Committee Against Government Repression and Police Crimes."{{NamedRef\|115\|2}}

	====Notes====
	*{{NamedNote\|117\|1}} Sgt. Arleigh McCree, 'A Case For Self-Defense,' ''Military Police'' (Summer 1981), quoted in Laird Wilcox, , Editorial Research Service, 1999, p. 115-117. ISBN 0-993592-96-5.
	*{{NamedRef\|115\|2}} Laird Wilcox, , Editorial Research Service, 1999, p. 115. ISBN 0-993592-96-5. ] 20:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	:Hi Nobs, I'm sorry I'm not making myself clear here. When you say "Berlet is former vice-president of the ], which has been described as "an apologist and defender for ] and ]".{{NamedRef\|116\|2}}, could you please supply a link for me, here on talk, to the exact page (not just the article) that actually says this? I can't find it. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 20:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	::No problem: . ] 20:38, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::Nobs, thanks for the link. First, it's not Laird Wilcox saying this; it's the police sergeant. I'm still not sure how good a source he is. What do others think? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::In studying this issue, I found only one person who trashes Laird Wilcox, and that is ]. I asked Mr. Berlet 8 weeks ago to respond to what Mr. Wilcox discovered, and Mr. Berlet only provided a link to another page that says the same thing Berlet says in the namespace here . Given the time allowed to respond, one can only conclude Mr. Berlet is either unable or unwilling to substantiate his charge. ] 02:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	==Odd sources==
	It appears that a large amount of info is being added to this page from an article on the ] website: http://www.volksfrontinternational.com/, also known as http://tcbhatecrew.net. Is it really a reliable source? I'd say that it is an extremist group. -] 00:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	:Laird Wilcox is a respected investigative journalist of all extremist groups http://www.lairdwilcox.com/; his copyright work includes an ISBN. His book, ''Nazis, communists, klansmen, and others on the fringe'', Prometheus Books, 1992. ISBN 0879756802 is a classic in the field of studying extremists groups, and recommended by ], among others. Here is an excellent review, see for example what Wilcox says aout the ], for example,
	::"hampers our understanding of important issues, muddies the waters of discourse with invective, defamation, self-righteousness, fanaticism, and hatred and impairs our ability to make intelligent well-informed choices.", other references, too. ] 02:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
	:::I don't think the Arleigh McCree opinion can stay in. He gets only 40 unique Google hits. I'll find the part of the policy that says the stronger the claim, the better the source has to be. It seems to me that this is in violation of NPOV, in that it's a tiny-minority claim. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 02:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::Okay, I can't find the policy that says the stronger the claim, the better the source has to be, except that there's a header in ] saying "exceptional claims require exceptional sources," or words to that effect.

	::::However, the Sgt McCree claim has to be excluded on three grounds, in my view: (1) McCree is not clearly a notable figure or an expert in the area; he gets very few Google hits, for example; (2) According to Amazon, the Wilcox book is self-published, so this book can't be regarded as a reputable source for Misplaced Pages; and (3) McCree's view seems to be a tiny-minority one, which has no place in an article about Chip Berlet. Quoting ] and ], both policy, quoting Jimbo:

	:::::*If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
	:::::*If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
	:::::*If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

	::::So Nobs, I feel this material has to be excluded until you can find a more mainstream source for it, so that we know we're not publishing self-published tiny-minority views. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 02:35, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	(Written before I read your above post...due to edit conflict)
	::::Slim:I would recommend reading all 16 pages of Wilcox's report, and some of the issues raised under various subheads here (by far, not all the issues, only those linking associations with violent political organizations that have caused deaths, including their own members). Some of this material must be presented for ]. Please see my comments under ] in connection with the section on the ''Guardian'', another ] organ. For a ], this stands in marked contrast to the findings of this Commission (). I am happy with the inclusion & two footnotes as they exist now. So I would recommend studying ''all'' the evidence, and even allowing Mr. Berlet to respond. But as Mr. Berlet can probably attest, his efforts to suppress information have too often resulted in the bulk & the weight of evidence being inserted. Thank you. ] 02:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::::If the Laird Wilcox thing is self-published, we can't use it. If the McCree view is a tiny-minority view, we can't include it. That is the NPOV policy. If you want to include this material, find a reputable source. If you can't find one, that should tell you something. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 03:00, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::::The McCree quote doesn't seem to have anything to do with Berlet, and apparently is a way of introducing a POV about the Guild. Apparently this is not a notable criticism of the Guild since it isn't even mention in ] (yet). Criticisms in this article should be about Berlet, not second hand attacks on groups he was associated with. If the criticism doesn't directly refer to Berlet, then I don't see the need to have it here. -] 04:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::::::This objection was handled last night; Berlet still refers to himself as "past" vice-president; Wilcox documents that (A) ''The Public Eye'' is an organ of NLG; (B) Berlet was managing editor in 1981; (C) McCree's comment is contemporaneous with Berlet's tenure. The two deaths from terrorists incidents can be included to give context, if necessary. ] 04:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
	:::::::Also, Berlet's association with NLG ‘Police Crimes Task Force’, which he's discussed with me personally; Carlos Zapata was associated with the group. ] 04:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
	::::::::This is a ]. Unless the criticism is made about Berlet in particular, this article is not the place for criticisms of the ]. Furthermore, unless the police officer in question is a notable attorney, I fail to see how his opinion is relevant. --] 06:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	==Proposal==
	Slim: read all the material, digest it, examine Mr. Wilcox presentation of Mr. Berlet's somewhat checkered background (sentiments aside). Then you may see what now exists is fair and ], and only a fraction of what is presented. Look at the record: you objected to a twenty-four year old citation -- documentation was then ''added'' to prove (1) ''The Public Eye'' was an organ of NLG (2) Mr. Berlet was managing editor at the time. I was happy with the simple citation, but you demanded the second footnote. Moving the goal post isn't gonna work. Again, I recommend some effort be made to examine ''The Watchdogs'', and let's not allow personal sentiments to obscure objective reading. Thank you. ] 03:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	:Nobs, I've no idea what you're talking about: the second footnote, moving the goalposts. I asked you maybe four times for a link to the source of your claim, because I couldn't find it, and you eventually provided one. It's a self-published book, which I didn't realize until I looked it up. We can't use it. Secondly, the source it quotes (McCree) is himself not a good one. So we have one poor source quoting another poor source, self-published by the first poor source, and yet the claim being made is a very serious one. I repeat: if you believe this is not a tiny-minority view, then please produce a more mainstream source. If you can't find another source, it means it's a tiny-minority view, and publishing it would be a violation of ]. This is a question of policy and trying to do responsible research, not a question of "allow personal sentiments to obscure objecting reading." ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 03:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	::Slim: I am sorry for the confusion regarding finding that cite on the page (it was confusing, because Wilcox cited it on page 115, then refered back to it again on page 117, and I thought I gave the right page the first time). Anyway, this material will not be suppressed, I recommend you become familiar with it ''before'' you start trashing it. Once you are familiar with its substance, you may see the first insertion I made was reasonable and ]. If you want to spend weeks discussing the ], ], the ''Covert Action Information Bulletin'', the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, the murder of Richard Welch, the May 19th Communist Organization, National Lawyers Guild Civil Liberties Committee, Korean War MIA's, and few other things (let's limit the discussion to associations with violent organizations for now), fine. In the end, you may wish the namespace only included "an apologist and defender for terrorists and terrorism" (which incidentally refers to the NLG, not Mr. Berlet; Mr. Berlet dropped his association with '']'', but has kept NLG on his resume, for whatever reasons). So we're even granting him deniability with this one, limited inclusion. ] 04:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	==WP:CON==
	FeloniousMonk: From ],
	*''This is done through polite discussion and negotiation, in an attempt to develop a consensus''
	*''The discussion iteself is more important than the statistics''
	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I count only three editors involved in this polite discussion, with a consensus of roughly 1.33 to 1.66. I'm not certain that "concensus" applies in this case, but I do thank you very much for the link, and intend to abide by established proceedures, policies, guidelines etc. Thank you. ] 05:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	:Not only does ] apply, but ] as well. Both you and I know what's going on here. Knock it off. ] 05:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	::Please assume good faith, FM. Statements such as the above do not. ] 05:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::Good faith can only excuse so much. This has been going on for days with nobs. I think we're safely beyond that. ] 06:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	:I'm involved, now. --] 06:06, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	::If I could propose a possible solution, it would be appropriate to say something to the effect that Berlet has been critized for his involvement in the National Lawyers Guild and attribute that to Horowitz, who has made such a criticism. If done this could be placed in the criticisms section. ] 06:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	:A suggestion: familiarize yourself with the substance of the material ''before'' adopting conclusions. I took more than two months to study it. Also, I asked Mr. Berlet 20 Septmeber 2005 to respond to it (see above, ]), and all I got was the same cut & pasted response from the '']'' that is now in the namespace. Thank you. ] 06:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

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"verification failed"?

Here's the text from Wilcox that supports the section that somebody deleted:

Although mainstream figures are legitimately concerned with the LaRouche organization, a good number of his harshest detractors come from extremist ranks themselves. A writer who has spent considerable time on LaRouche is John Foster "Chip" Berlet, of Political Research Associates (PRA) in Boston. His articles on LaRouche go back into the 1970s. Berlet is also a veteran of the 1960s student left, and currently serves as the National Lawyers Guild (NLG) representative to the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation. Harvey Klehr confirms:

"The NLG is an affiliate of the Soviet-controlled International Association of Democratic Lawyers (IADL), founded in 1946. Expelled from France in 1949, the IADL is now headquartered in Brussels.Over the years it has supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan.The American Association of Jurists, the regional affiliate of the IADL, is headquartered in Havana.Its president, Ann Fagan Ginger, is a long-time NLG activist." 31

In 1987, when Berlet moved with his organization to Boston from Chicago, the Chicago Area Friends of Albania gave him a special sendoff, noting that, "Chip was one of our founding members, and a steadfast friend of Albania through thick and thin." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 55 Gators (talk • contribs) 15:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

evidence that the National Lawyers Guild "supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan"? There isn't any, because they didn't.

This is synthesis. The source does not say that Berlet was doing anything extremist. It says he was a member of a group, then it says that the group was doing certain things. Which does not mean that Berlet was doing those things. Binksternet (talk) 15:59, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

No, it isn't, Binksternet. The copy that you've twice deleted summarizes the point that George and Wilcox make, though it should probably be reworded for clarity. Whether or not Berlet was actively doing all the things that the NLG and CAFA were doing is irrelevant. He was a member of the organizations which is what the deleted copy states.Badmintonhist (talk) 18:15, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

The deleted copy says that Berlet was a member, and then it tries to implicate Berlet with things that the organization did. This gets Berlet's involvement quite wrong. For instance, the Chicago Area Friends of Albania is a group Berlet co-founded so that he could support the Albanian people, who were going through a rough time. He researched the problem of political repression in Albania through his group contacts. Berlet worked against anti-democratic Stalinists through the group, a fairly centrist stance which is exactly opposite of what your text is trying to imply: that he is an extremist. Binksternet (talk) 06:34, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Binksternet, your beef apparently has more to do with the George/Wilcox "take" on Berlet in the first place than on the editorial summary of that take (though, on second glance, I don't see where George and Wilcox directly call the "Friends of Albania" a Communist front). So your contention here is less about verification or synthesis than it is about the reliability of George/Wilcox. Do you have anything here beyond your own WP:OR with which to impeach George and Wilcox? Badmintonhist (talk) 15:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The material that was deleted doesn't make any particular allegations about the groups that Berlet belonged to, it simply says he was a member. The source says unambiguously that Berlet "comes from extremist ranks." 55 Gators (talk) 15:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Wilcox and George do not describe any activities of Berlet with regard to the groups he has been associated with. They do not say Berlet supported the Soviets (which he did not). They do not say that Berlet was anything but a guy coming from the extreme left:

Although mainstream figures are legitimately concerned with the LaRouche organization, a good number of his harshest detractors come from extremist ranks themselves. A writer who has spent considerable time on LaRouche is John Foster "Chip" Berlet, of Political Research Associates (PRA) in Boston. His articles on LaRouche go back into the 1970s. Berlet is also a veteran of the 1960s student left, and currently serves as the National Lawyers Guild (NLG) representative to the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation.

After that bit, Wilcox and George write further about the NLG, but without mentioning Berlet:

Harvey Klehr confirms: "The NLG is an affiliate of the Soviet-controlled International Association of Democratic Lawyers (IADL), founded in 1946. Expelled from France in 1949, the IADL is now headquartered in Brussels. Over the years it has supported every twist and turn in Soviet foreign policy, including the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan. The American Association of Jurists, the regional affiliate of the IADL, is headquartered in Havana. Its president, Ann Fagan Ginger, is a long-time NLG activist."

Wilcox and George quote a party invitation which says that Berlet was "a steadfast friend of Albania through thick and thin", which he was—a friend to the Albanian people, not to the repressive Soviet-controlled Albanian government.

Finally, Wilcox and George wind up with a damning indictment of LaRouche groups, saying that the groups have a "primary evil" in "how they treat their opponents and in the vision they maintain of the civil liberties of all Americans. Here the antidemocratic and anti-civil libertarian nature of LaRouche and his followers is manifest, and it is primarily on these grounds that they should be opposed."

Thus we cannot synthesize a position not taken overtly by Wilcox and George. As well, we cannot misrepresent Wilcox and George as being opposed to Berlet rather than being opposed to the LaRouche organization. Binksternet (talk) 16:53, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The fact that Wilcox and George oppose the Larouche cult can certainly be included in a reworked edit but so, OBVIOUSLY, should Berlet's membership in the National Lawyers Guild. That's the primary evidence Wilcox and George present for Berlet being "a guy coming from the extreme left." There's no synthesis here at all. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Klehr is quoted about how the NLG is "an affiliate" of the IADL, with the only stated connection being Ann Fagan Ginger's activism in both the IADL and NLG. Nothing here says the NLG is extremist. In fact, most observers call the NLG liberal, progressive or leftist—a much milder position. Berlet's involvement in the NLG is as a liaison to the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation, a group formed to fight McCarthyism. Wilcox and George leave the reader wondering whether it was Berlet's 1960s activism which deserves the label "extremist", or his later NLG membership. We cannot decide ourselves what makes him "extremist" when it is not clear. Binksternet (talk) 18:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

My re-write was much closer to the source than Binksternet's. And why am I receiving a warning on my personal talk page about "Edit warring" from the guy who has undone every one of my edits? Is that the pot calling the kettle black? 55 Gators (talk) 18:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Those warnings are just Binksternet being Binksternet. As for the substance here, the whole reason for George and Wilcox bringing up Berlet's NLG membership is to demonstrate Berlet's own radical, front-organization roots; as you might put it, Gators, "the pot calling the kettle black." Badmintonhist (talk) 18:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

the description of the National Lawyers Guild and Berlet's connection with it is entirely scurrilous, repeating shopworn lies first circulated by Joseph McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover, whom the NLG opposed. While the NLG certainly defended victims of McCarthyism, including communists, to say that it is or was an arm of the Soviet government is false. Moreover, the assertion that they supported the soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia is pure fabrication. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.243.148.28 (talk) 13:36, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Secondary sources and BLP problems

This article was substantially cleaned up during the spring, but now it's creeping back to being a mirror site for Berlet's own websites. If Berlet said something worth putting in Misplaced Pages, it will also be covered in secondary sources, so people should stop putting in stuff sourced only to Berlet. This is particularly the case for Berlet's accusations against public figures, even LaRouche: BLP policy says If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. 55 Gators (talk) 16:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It is easy to find third party sources that describe the LaRouchites as antisemitic and anti-Jewish, and LaRouche himself an antisemite, a neofascist, a neonazi, and even a "small time Hitler". It is also easy to find third party sources that describe in detail LaRouche's conviction for financial and tax crimes. That I have written about these facts is itself a fact that is easy to document. What is the issue here?Chip.berlet (talk) 17:24, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

As 55 Gators said, third-party sources are needed to establish the notability of your views. If you wrote that your favorite cookies are chocolate chip - well, Misplaced Pages doesn't really care. --NeilN 18:25, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Or more accurately, since this article is about Chip not LaRouche, to show that his views on LaRouche are significant to this article, which I have now done. TFD (talk) 20:13, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that if someone said something, that we should use secondary or tertiary sources that report it, as was done with the mention of Ralph Nader. However the claims made about LaRouche are mentioned in Hate Crimes: A Reference Handbook, pp. 88-89, which is already used as a source in the article. I will therefore restore the text and add this source. TFD (talk) 18:17, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the citation you used was not from the source per se. It is from a bio of Berlet which appears in the preface, a bio which was probably provided by Berlet. 55 Gators (talk) 19:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

A preface "is an introduction to a book...written by the work's author." No idea why you not consider prefaces to have the same reliability as the books. Do you have any policies or guidelines? And who cares where sources get their informaton? We expect writers of reliable sources to use judgment, fact-checking, double-sourcing, etc. We ourselves do not do that, but rely on why reliable sources report. TFD (talk) 21:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

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Update Request

Admitted self-serving request warning: https://www.crcpress.com/Trumping-Democracy-From-Reagan-to-the-Alt-Right/Berlet/p/book/9781138212497 I have a new edited collection that was just published. :-) In penance I will go update a few pages that have no connection to me. --Chip.berlet (talk) 15:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

@Chip.berlet: seems to be my week to update bibliographies. I'ved added it to your bibliography article. Doug Weller talk 17:20, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

@Doug Weller 🌹 2607:FB91:D79:3EC:98F1:C7BE:A42A:7384 (talk) 21:11, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Doug Weller Thanks 2607:FB91:D79:3EC:2819:947A:A6EA:3D44 (talk) 21:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

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