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Revision as of 21:40, 16 April 2009 editJohn Carter (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users176,670 edits →Discussion copied from P:Administrator's noticeboard/Intervention: comment← Previous edit Latest revision as of 17:12, 25 November 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,296,120 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:North Macedonia/Archive 30) (bot 
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|text=<big>'''WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES'''</big><br /> The article ] is currently subject to '''discretionary sanctions''' authorized by active arbitration remedies (see ]). The current restrictions are:
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* Editors may not make any modifications to the official name of this country until consensus has determined that the name has officially changed.
Previous discussion have been archived. Editors interested in improving this article are encouraged to see also <br>
|2=<span style="color:red">Remedy instructions and exemptions</span>
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{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=b|style=long}}
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{{consensus|The title of this article has been established by a binding consensus process at ]. Further discussion takes place ].}}
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| action1date = 22:37, 4 November 2004 (UTC)
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Two subpages for the naming conflict have also been created:
*] and
*]
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''This information has been placed in a collapse box to improve readability..'''</span>''
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{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WPMKD|class=B|importance=Top|no-todolist=yes|nested=yes}}
{{WikiProject Europe|class=B|importance=top|nested=yes}}
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| action2 = PR
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| action2date = 10:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
| action2link = Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Republic of Macedonia/archive2
| action2result = reviewed
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|itn1date=13 February 2019|itn1link=Special:PermanentLink/883114594
|}<!--Template:Archivebox ends-->
|itn2date=27 March 2020

|otd1date=2005-09-08|otd1oldid=22870460
==Article move==
|otd2date=2006-09-08|otd2oldid=74618345

|otd3date=2007-09-08|otd3oldid=155793758
I have moved this article to ] to meet the requirements of Misplaced Pages policy and to achieve consistency with other Misplaced Pages articles and external sources. The issue of the article's name has been ] and for seven years. Unfortunately, it is clear that Misplaced Pages's normal processes of consensus have broken down in this instance; a ] to find a compromise failed some time ago, a number of Greek editors has consistently sought to promote a nationalist POV on the issue, and pro-Greek nationalist vandalism on this topic is endemic across Misplaced Pages. Patterns of usage in English-language sources have shifted markedly during the last seven years but the breakdown of consensus-seeking on this issue has prevented us from keeping up with the state of play off-wiki. I've therefore decided, very exceptionally, to take administrative action to resolve this issue once and for all.
|otd4date=2008-09-08|otd4oldid=236877141

|otd5date=2009-09-08|otd5oldid=312595537
Here's a summary of the rationale behind this change:
|otd6date=2010-09-08|otd6oldid=383552132

|otd7date=2011-09-08|otd7oldid=448979901
* '''Naming policy.''' Names are governed by the ] policy, which requires that we "use common names of persons and things".
|otd8date=2012-09-08|otd8oldid=511192795
* '''Common names prioritised.''' ] prioritises "the most commonly used name" because "using a full formal name requires people to know that name, and to type more."
}}
* '''Self-identifying names prioritised.''' Where names are disputed, as in this instance, ] requires us to prioritise the "self-identifying name" of an entity without reference to the political or moral merits of that name.
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|1=
* '''How Macedonia self-identifies.''' Macedonia self-identifies formally as the "Republic of Macedonia" in its constitution and its government affairs , and uses "Macedonia" as the common short form of this formal name. Approximately two-thirds of UN member states, including all but two of the English-speaking countries, use this name.
{{WikiProject North Macedonia|importance=Top}}
* '''Daily usage by English media.''' In daily use by the English-language media, "Macedonia" is overwhelmingly the preferred term ( vs ).
{{WikiProject Countries}}
* '''Usage by other reference works.''' Almost all of the reference works (encyclopedias, dictionaries, gazetteers etc) available via and use the term "Macedonia" as the conventional short form of the country; most also use "Macedonia" by itself as the name of their articles on the country.
{{WikiProject Europe|importance=top}}

{{WikiProject Eastern Europe|importance=Mid}}
:''Macedonia''
}}

{{Top 25 report|June 13 2021}}
::Britannica
{{Annual readership}}
::Philip's World Factbook 2008-2009
{{User:MiszaBot/config
::Chambers Dictionary of World History
|maxarchivesize = 140K
::The Hutchinson Unabridged Encyclopedia
|counter = 30
::Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary
|minthreadsleft = 3
::The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy
|algo = old(60d)
::Penguin Encyclopedia of Places
|archive = Talk:North Macedonia/Archive %(counter)d
::The Encyclopedia of World History
}}
::The Harvard Dictionary of Music
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn|target=Talk:North_Macedonia/Archive_index|mask=Talk:North Macedonia/Archive <#>|leading_zeros=0|indexhere=yes}}
::The Hutchinson Chronology of World History
{{Xreadership}}
::A Guide to Countries of the World
::Collins English Dictionary

:''Macedonia, Republic of'' or ''Macedonia (republic)''

::Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary
::The Crystal Reference Encyclopedia

:''Macedonia, Former Yugoslav Republic of''
:(article title, however articles all use "Macedonia" almost exclusively within the body text)

::Philip's Encyclopedia 2008
::The Macmillan Encyclopedia
::A Dictionary of World History
::World Encyclopedia
::A Dictionary of Contemporary World History

* '''Primary topic.''' ] states that "When a topic is the primary topic for more than one name the more common should be the title". It recommends that when determining which article constitutes a ] for a particular term, we should take into account the number of incoming wikilinks and article traffic statistics. Figures from http://stats.grok.se show what our readers are actually reading. All figures from March 2009:

{|class=wikitable
!article
!hits
|-
|'''"Macedonia" entries'''||
|-
|]||119,905
|-
|]||22,845
|-
|]||12,827
|-
|]||11,660
|-
|]||1,972
|-
|]||1,873
|-
|]||1,707
|-
|]||296
|-
|]||603
|-
|]||365
|-
|]||317
|}

With regard to the four top entries, the approximate number of wikilinks is as follows:

{|class=wikitable
!article
!wikilinks
|-
|]||~8,000
|-
|]||~1,000
|-
|]||~800
|-
|]||~100
|}

* To conclude, the key points are:
** '''"Macedonia" is the common form of the formal self-identifying name "Republic of Macedonia".'''
** '''"Macedonia" is overwhelmingly the predominant term for the country in English-language encyclopedias, dictionaries and everyday usage by the media.'''
** '''The primary topic for the term "Macedonia", as determined by the number of web hits and incoming links, is the article on the country of that name.'''

I am aware that this will be a controversial move for some of our editors. However, Misplaced Pages's policies take precedence above national sentiments. Misplaced Pages is not subordinate to the views of external agencies and organisations, so the fact that certain international organisations and states may choose to use alternative terminology does not determine how we approach this issue. I suggest that if editors disagree with my actions, they should save their comments for the arbitration case due to start next week. -- ] (]) 19:30, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:I completely endorse your move. Good work!--]<sup>]/]</sup> 19:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:I feel it is a good move as well, in the two languages I know and can speak Macedonia is always the primary usage.I s there suppose to be changes for lets say ], ] and templates like Country data etc, and what about links? ]] ''']''' 19:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, there will need to be a general renaming of "Republic of Macedonia" articles. But I suggest waiting a day or two to see how this pans out first. -- ] (]) 19:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::You've done an excellent job of marshalling the evidence and making the arguments clear, concise, and well-documented. (] (]) 19:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC))
: Good move, I fully endorse it. I find your reasoning persuasive. While I'm sure some people will object, this is a global encyclopedia and opposition to the obvious naming mostly originates from a limited region. <strong>]<small>•]</small></strong> 19:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::Agree with above, this was an excellent decision, and I commend you for being willing to finally put an end to this nonsense. ]]] 20:01, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:It was too obvious ChrisO. See you at ArbCom where I will personally propose you will be desysopped for abusing the admin tools.--] (]) 20:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::Yes it was too obvious that following what ChrisO has posted Macedonia was the clear primary topic, and therefore should be treated as the primary topic ]] ''']''' 20:39, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::You're welcome to post your opinion at the ArbCom. The diffs are here for everyone to see what happened. --] (]) 20:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::::Why do object to the move?--]<sup>]/]</sup> 21:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
The United Nations , the , and refer to the country as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. (Germany sometimes abbreviates the name to "Macedonia", after the full name has been used.) The apparently use "Macedonia". --] (]) 21:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


== I suggest that under the demonym "Macedonian" we should also include the term "North Macedonian" in the article's tab ==
== Discussion copied from WP:Administrator's noticeboard/Intervention ==


I suggest that under the demonym "Macedonian" we should also include the term "North Macedonian" in the article's tab with the description "(unofficial)" alongside for example, colloquially the vast majority of people usually describe something as being "North Macedonian" due to its association with the country in general and not the Macedonian ethnicity specifically. Take the Misplaced Pages article of east Timor for example which uses both terms East Timorese and Timorese in its demonym, or the articles about south and north Korea which also do the same although neither East Timor nor South and North Korea use officially any orientations alongside their endonyms but nonetheless the articles use them to make the content more accurate by also including the common global perception <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)</small>
I just noticed that ] has been moved to ] and the previous content of the page, which was basically a longer dab, seems to have disappeared. The person who did the move, ], cites policy as being the basis for the move, as per the ] page. I don't know that anyone was given any prior notice of his intention to move the page, however. Just letting you all know. ] (]) 19:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:I recall that there was quite a bit of discussion on the Boards regarding the proper name, mostly about Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia (or similar?) being preferred by no-one except Greek Nationalists. I don't know the outcome of the discussion, but the move may have been the result of it. ] (]) 19:39, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::The previous content of the page is now at ]. The naming now follows the standard pattern used for every other country, and is specifically based on ] (with ] and ] (with ]. In answer to the (I suppose implicit) question here, this is a unilateral administrative action but one that is based firmly on policy. As the rationale on the talk page explains, all attempts at consensus-forming over the past seven years have failed due to a strongly nationalist Greek block of editors - policy and standard practice has simply been ignored. This is an unashamedly ] attempt to break a seven-year deadlock and enforce a form of naming that is standard for every other country article. Some of our Greek editors will doubtless object but cutting ]s is, after all, a Macedonian tradition. -- ] (]) 19:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::I very definitely agree with the "Bold" part. I was in fact a regular part of the discussion on the ] page for some time now, but the discussion there was about whether "Republic of Macedonia" or "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" was the preferable name to use in that article. I do not remember there having ever been any discussion of even using in that article, let alone rename the central article itself, to the simpler name "Macedonia". In fact, I seem to remember that in the discussion there was virtually unanimous agreement that the article on the country would stay at ]. I wonder whether such a destabilization of what was an at least reluctantly acceptable situation by both sides of the discussion, particularly without any sort of prior approval or agreement that I can see, is really the wisest move here. ] (]) 19:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Ah, you mean the likes of ] who self identify as Ireland.? It may have a slightly different argument but if as you say it's standard practice to use the self identifying name then it's not standard practice across the board. ] (]) 19:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::::I think The Republic of Ireland is a very common name in English (especially in Britain), and I dont know about the hit counts, but from what's been shown on the talk page, ROM for Macedonia was a clear, clear primary topic, but some, what was it 10x hits than ] and 5 times the hits of the second choice ]] ''']''' 20:01, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::::There's been *seven years* of discussion. The article was the subject of edit wars and disputes within days of its creation way back in 2002. There is in fact no stability on this issue; nationalist vandalism relating to the naming issue is continuous and endemic across Misplaced Pages, as demonstrates. When ] was on the "In the news" section of the Main Page last week, it was twice vandalised by someone editing from the Greek Parliament. Leave aside the procedural niceties: I've set out the policy rationale on ]. The issue at hand is whether this move is validated by policy. I'd say it's clear-cut. -- ] (]) 20:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


: A ''demonym'', if that's what you're referring to (not ''endonym'' as in your heading) is something more specific than just an adjective referring to "something" from a country. A demonym, by definition, is the word that refers to the country's inhabitants. For this country, that word is indeed "Macedonian", and only that. ] ] 05:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it was time for a third option. If there was a stalemate between the advocates of the different "Republic" titles then the new one should suffice until there is an agreement - this may be a stimulus, given that if neither side like the most recent rename then there is at least one thing they agree on, toward arriving at a consensus. In that light, I suggest that there is no undoing of the move until such a consensus is arrived at? ] (]) 20:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::Yeah, the word I meant to say was demonym, excuse me for the typo, I fixed it, anyways. Yeah I agree with that statement but it isn't absolute, colloquially the term endonym is used by the global interception as I mentioned before to describe something which isn't specifically related with the ethnicity of a country but the country in general. You can check the examples I mentioned before, the articles of south and north Korea or East Timor. ] (]) 11:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
:::Demonym*
:::My autocorrect keeps changing it, I apologize once again ] (]) 11:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)


:] reflects the decision of the wikipedia community and defines what naming should be used about North Macedonia, and a very concrete clique of people have put a lot of effort into ignoring these decisions. It would be nice if I could say that I agree with Future Perfect about the demonym, but I cannot do that because his argument contradicts himself and because of the effort he has made since 2019 to avoid using ]. "North Macedonian" is absolutely correct wording for everything related to North Macedonia including people, and indeed the adjective "North Macedonian" was used in the main page of ] as a result of applying the decisions of wikipedians, but during the next years a clique of people who push their agenda found several excuses to avoid both the wording "North Macedonian" and the consensus reached in 2019. Right now there are ZERO usages of North Macedonian in the main page.
I would be interested to know what specific part of the policy was used to make the change. ] (]) 20:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:It's all outlined on ] ]] ''']''' 20:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


:My comment regarding the demonym: the name of the people is not defined by any official document, otherwise we wouldn't discuss it. The name of the people is not defined for any country, not only for North Macedonia. Who defines what is the name for people of Germany, UK, Portugal, Brazil? No official document does it.
According to the same logic, ] should take the ] (3fold hits, incoming links, common usages etc). I smell more dramas coming from the too bold move.--] 20:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


:Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and should report facts that rely on what wording is used to refer to people from North Macedonia based on reliable sources.
:PRC vs Taiwan is a ''territorial'' dispute - two states disputing ownership of the same territory. So is Ireland, to an historical extent, vis-a-vis Northern Ireland. Neither side disputes the other's right over the name of its part of the territory - the dispute is over who governs that territory. Neither Greece nor Macedonia disputes any territorial matters; it's purely an issue of one side (Greece) claiming ''exclusive'' rights to the name, which isn't a situation replicated in either China or Ireland. -- ] (]) 20:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::(ec) @ChrisO, no, not just ''territorial'' dispute, but the ownership of the name "China" and its long "history" too. We already had a move suggestion/discussion last year (heated one). If the move was carried by a Macedonian, I wonder how good the user would get? Not too sweet one.--] 20:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::For UN member states, the United Nations does probably indicate the prevailing consensus. --] (]) 20:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Not in this case: the UN uses a different terminology from two thirds of its member states, which use "Macedonia" instead. The situation is that the state self-identifies as Macedonia but participates in certain international organisations under a provisional reference (not a name!) due to Greek objections. But as I've noted on ], that's really a side issue, since Misplaced Pages's approach isn't determined by state policies towards an issue. -- ] (]) 20:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


:I have no reason to disagree that the majority of reliable sources uses plain "Macedonian" for the demonym, but a quick google search shows that the wording "North Macedonian" is used as well to refer to people of North Macedonia according to reliable sources and international organizations. Therefore, what is the motivation to hide this fact from wikipedia? We can include both as demonym and still use the plain Macedonian in the articles. ] (]) 10:56, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
:::] versus ] may also be a relevant comparison here. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 20:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::And not only that, but while the article writers avoid to add the second demonym (North Macedonian) to the tab because as they say there's no official agreement which defines it, in the same time they mention inside the article that unofficially "most of citizens and the media still call their country Macedonia" while avoiding to mention that the global community calls them North Macedonian too. Double standards at their finest! It seems indeed there's an agenda behind it.
::By this logic then why we keep having "North Korean" for example in North Korea's article tab even though the North Korean government strongly discourages for people to use the term North?
::In the article it also mentions that the reason is because that's how it's defined by the global perception, so the global perception applies to North Korea but North Macedonia? What kind of mental gymnastics are these?!
::Misplaced Pages unfortunately has starting to lose it's old reliability it seems... ] (]) 02:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)


== Languages in North Macedonia ==
::::Korea is another dissimilar example, more akin to China or Ireland - it's one territory disputed by two states, whereas Macedonia is not a territorial dispute. -- ] (]) 20:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::I think you'll find that Ireland (rep) no longer dispute any territory. It is purely a wikipedia debate on the naming of the country, which is why I say the policy is not used across the board. ] (]) 20:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I would like to know why it was given the sole name "Macedonia". Isn't the usual convention for that to only happen when the target is what most people are looking for? I would suggest the page be at "Macedonia (country)" as we have done with articles such as "]" and "]". ] (]) 20:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::Sounds logical.--] 20:30, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:I believe both Georgias were found to have roughly the same level of prominence (hits, incoming links etc). That clearly isn't the case in this instance. Macedonia the country has five times the usage and eight times the number of incoming links to the next most prominent item on the list (which isn't Greek Macedonia). -- ] (]) 20:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


Article 7 of the North Macedonian constitution says :
:: Yes, Georgia the country got 150k views last month, the state 100k (from ). According to the same view numbers above, Macedonia the country gets 5 times more hits than the next article that could conceivably use the Macedonia name. <strong>]<small>•]</small></strong> 20:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
In the Republic of North Macedonia, the official language is the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic script. - Член 7
Во Република Северна Македонија службен јазик е македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо. ] (]) 18:39, 14 September 2024 (UTC)


:Based on Article 7 of the North Macedonian constitution, which states that "In the Republic of North Macedonia, the official language is the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic script," it can be inferred that the Albanian language is not officially recognized as a co-official language in the Republic of North Macedonia. The constitution designates Macedonian as the sole official language. ] (]) 18:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
:Would Georgia (country) be such a clear primary topic? I would guess not, just because Georgia (US state) is the common usage in the USA ]] ''']''' 20:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::Furthermore, the Law on Languages of 2019 was not ratified by the President and is deemed to be inconsistent with the North Macedonian Constitution. The Constitutional Court of North Macedonia is set to determine the law's constitutionality in October 2024. ] (]) 18:44, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
::But don't forget that most English speakers live outside the USA and Misplaced Pages is a global encyclopedia. -- ] (]) 20:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Until the Constitutional Court of North Macedonia renders a decision on the legality of the Law on Languages, Macedonian remains the sole official language of the Republic. ] (]) 18:50, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Yes, but I think because there are many US users it is what heights the US state up to "block" the country as primary usage. Plus from what I can see about the country it doesnt seem to be called "Republic of Georgia" or something like that, so (country) is the only possible disambig for it i guess ]] ''']''' 20:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::::In light of these developments, I propose that we temporarily remove references to Albanian as an official language of North Macedonia from this article until the Constitutional Court's decision is finalized. This approach ensures that the content remains consistent with the current constitutional provisions and avoids potential misinformation. ] (]) 18:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Possibly, but as Henrik indicates there isn't a huge gap between the prominence of each name. The situation with Macedonia is very different, as the stats show. As a matter of fact, it generally isn't necessary to include the form of government in an article's title; we don't, for instance, refer to Libya as the "Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" (thank goodness). The only situation I can think of where you absolutely need to have a disambiguation-by-prefix is if two states use very similar names and govern a common, potentially disputed, territory. We get around the problem of ] versus ] because the two states are commonly referred to by geographical disambiguators - North Korea and South Korea. The only examples I can think of where we do need to disambiguate-by-prefix are ] versus ] and ] versus ] (the latter is particularly problematic, as there don't seem to be common terms for those states). -- ] (]) 20:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::Seems reasonable. --] <sup>]</sup> 22:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::Seems like a POV-joke. On 15 January 2019 the Law on the Use of Languages came into effect, despite the refusal of President Gjorge Ivanov to sign off on it. The law was published in the government gazette after being signed by parliament Speaker Talat Xhaferi. In this way Albanian became a second official language in North Macedonia. The Albanian language until then could only be co-official in the areas where the Albanian minority represented at least 20% of the population per the 2008 Law on the Use of Languages spoken by at least 20% of the citizens in the units of the local self-government. The new law extended the official use of Albanian over the entire territory of the country. Under the new legislation, Macedonian continues to be the primary official language, while Albanian may be used now as a second one, including at a national level in official matters. The legislation stipulates also all public institutions in the country will provide Albanian translations in their everyday work. The fact that the constitutional court has been referred to and how and when it will rule on the matter is irrelevant to the current legislation, before the decision of the court, and even afterwards, if the court accepts that the law does not violate the constitution itself. ] (]) 17:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Your reply is just a copy-paste of text from ]. Anyway, per Article 7 of , only Macedonian is the official language. The constitutionality of the law mentioned in your copy-paste is pending. That being said, use of Albanian is definitely in more widespread use in reality following this law, whether or not it is constitutional. --] <sup>]</sup> 21:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::My replay is backed by reliable sources in the corresponding article. That above is only POV. ] (]) 12:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::The constitutional court case is POV to point out? I was referring to the laziness of your reply, not the sourcing backing the text in the article. --] <sup>]</sup> 21:29, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
The Constitutional Court was referred to this issue by the ultra-left, pro-Russian, and even according to some, pro-fascist Levica Party back in 2019. Until now, the court was silent, but after the ultranationalists from DPMNE came to power, the court thought of opening a case. So the issue is not from yesterday and this legislation that has been in effect until now remains valid until the court pronounces.] (]) 03:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC)


:According to the Macedonian Constitution the official language is Macedonian. There, there was the new law of 5 January 2019 the Law on the Use of Languages, that makes Albanian co-official. However - is it a silly point to make? - I think Macedonian is not 'co-official' but simply 'official'. Also, Albanian is not co-official in Macedoniandefence, central police and monetary policy. Hence the supremacy in North Macedonia remains with the Macedonian language.
The timing on this was '''very bad''' indeed, as an arbitration request over the name of the country in the ] article was going to be initiated next week, after the conclusion of the Orthodox Easter holiday. This really borders on reckless, Chris; you are aware of the planned arbitration request, and this move smacks of trying to gain the upper hand in the dispute, which reflects badly on you and (by extension) those who have supported you over a series of attacks on the content guideline you authored which covers this debate. ''']''' <small>]</small> 20:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:So these points can be made in the article, no? ] (]) 19:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
::Yes, Macedonian is official, while Albanian is co-official. ] (]) 19:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Your attempt to justify the Law on the Use of Languages is not just misguided—it's an outright farce. The Constitutional Court’s involvement in this issue is riddled with controversies and lacks true legitimacy. It’s no secret that this court has shown favoritism toward nationalist agendas, undermining its credibility.
:::The insistence on treating Albanian as a co-official language flies in the face of our constitution, which unequivocally states that Macedonian is the sole official language. Until the court rules on this matter, the law is effectively null and void. Continuing to reference Albanian in this context is a dangerous precedent that threatens the very foundation of our national identity.
:::It's time to face the facts: Albanian should be removed as a co-official language until the court reaches a legitimate decision. Anything less is a disservice to the rule of law and an insult to the Macedonian people. ] (]) 11:45, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
::::I completely agree with this stance. The idea that Albanian should be treated as a co-official language without a proper Constitutional Court ruling is absolutely wrong. Our constitution is clear: '''Macedonian is the only official language''', and any attempts to bypass that with a flawed law should be challenged.
::::The court itself isn't biased toward nationalist forces as some claim—it's performing its duty to uphold the constitution. The law pushed through in 2019, without proper presidential approval and with the involvement of individuals like Talat Xhaferi, is deeply questionable. Until a legitimate, constitutional ruling is made, '''Albanian must be removed from any references as a co-official language'''.
::::This is about ensuring the rule of law, not bending to political convenience. Ethnicity should never override the clear legal framework that governs our country. ] (]) 11:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::Your attempt to downplay the significance of the co-official status of Albanian is not just misleading; it’s a blatant oversimplification of a complex and critical issue. Yes, Macedonian is the sole official language according to our constitution, but the Law on the Use of Languages that was passed is not merely a footnote—it's a legal document that attempted to elevate Albanian to co-official status across the country.
:::::Claiming that Macedonian is simply “official” while Albanian holds a “co-official” designation implies that Albanian can be sidelined, which undermines the impact of that law and disregards the voices of significant segments of our population. You may argue that Albanian is not recognized in certain areas like defense or monetary policy, but that only highlights the inconsistency and contentiousness of this legislation, which is currently awaiting a constitutional verdict.
:::::This situation creates a precarious legal landscape where the implications of such laws could destabilize our national identity and legal system. The supremacy of Macedonian language should be reflected not just in theory but in practice. Until we have a definitive ruling from the Constitutional Court, the existence of Albanian as a co-official language is legally questionable and should be challenged vigorously.
:::::Your assertion that this can simply be brushed off as a "silly point" only reveals a lack of understanding of the broader implications for our society. This is not just about semantics; it’s about preserving the constitutional integrity of North Macedonia. ] (]) 11:52, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
:Your comments just further expose your own POV and inability to objectively evaluate the topic at hand (i.e., refusal to use 'VMRO-DPMNE' in comments, bringing up irrelevant ideological leanings of Levica, etc.). That the constitution only names Macedonian as official must be noted in the article. --] <sup>]</sup> 02:21, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
::First of all i'm sick of you, your entire response reeks of bad faith and an inability to engage in a constructive conversation. Resorting to cheap shots about my supposed "POV" only shows you're trying to avoid the real issue. Whether I mention VMRO-DPMNE or Levica is irrelevant to the fact that the constitution clearly names Macedonian as the only official language. That’s a legal fact, not an opinion, and your attempt to downplay it shows your own bias.
::As for the "law on languages," it is currently under review by the Constitutional Court. Until there is a final ruling, it's reckless and misleading to claim that Albanian has been definitively established as a co-official language. The law’s constitutionality is being questioned, and it would be premature for Misplaced Pages to recognize something that might soon be overturned. The objectivity you so self-righteously claim to uphold demands we respect the current legal framework, not indulge in wishful thinking.
::Instead of dodging the issue, I suggest you stick to the facts at hand: the constitution only recognizes Macedonian, and the court’s decision will determine whether that changes. Trying to manipulate language for political reasons violates Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy. So drop the baseless accusations and deal with the actual legal status of the languages in Macedonia. ] (]) 21:09, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:::I expect a proper, respectful discussion moving forward, without resorting to propaganda or political games. '''The national identity and unity of Macedonia are not up for negotiation''', and it’s time for an honest, fact-based conversation. Stop dodging the issue and talk to me directly if you have any valid points to make. ] (]) 21:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::::AND stop dodging this topic - Еднаш збори со мене ко нормален човек ако сакаш можеме на македонски да збориме прекини да бегаш од темава. ] (]) 21:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::The Constitutional Court is set to hold a constitutive session on December 11, 2024, regarding the legality of the 2019 Law on Languages. It is important to acknowledge that the outcomes of this session, as determined by the court, are binding and must be respected. This is a critical moment for upholding the rule of law and ensuring adherence to Macedonia's constitutional principles. ] (]) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)


== Establishment history ==
: Well, the other view on the timing is, doing this now when we are going to have an Arbcom case anyway gives us the opportunity of having his action checked (and, if necessary, confirmed or reversed) in a controlled atmosphere and under the auspices of that body. Which may actually save us some drama, which would otherwise have been unavoidable. As for the issue itself, I'd say the case for applying the "primary use" rule to this article is indeed extremely strong. At the same time, experience with the other related disputes has shown that a regular consensus-seeking process would never have led to any policy-conformant outcome in this field. This is clearly the right result, and it is just as clear that it would never have been reached without this slighly irregular bold ''coup''. I'm looking for a "gordian knot barnstar", but there doesn't seem to be one yet. ] ] 21:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


Why is Krusevo republic 1903 not added? ] (]) 00:52, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
::My thinking exactly. There's actually no better time to put the policy issues on the table, as it gives Arbcom a clear target to aim at. -- ] (]) 21:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:I don't know of any clear guidelines as to what should be included in that field of the infobox. For instance, ] lists a whole bunch of things, while ] is very concise. --] <sup>]</sup> 02:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
::The section is intended for "key event in history of country/territory's status or formation" in support of the "Brief description of country/territory's status ("Independence ", "Autonomous province ", etc)". However, both fields are often misapplied for a variety of reasons. ] (]) 03:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
:::1903 is a national holiday for the state. It should definitely be added ] (]) 10:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::I think it should be added considering 1903/1944/1991 are all national holidays and important days for the modern history of the country. ] (]) 10:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
:::There are some problems with this claim. Firstly: the short-lived formation in question covered only one small town and does not have the characteristics of a real country. Secondly: the population of the town at that time consisted of different ethno-religious and linguistic communities that do not identify themselves as ethnic Macedonians. ] (]) 10:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Oh look the state sponsored account from Sofia that edits Macedonian history. First of all we did identify as Macedonian my own ancestor fought there and he identified as macedonian :) That small republic covered almost 500km2 which is 1,000 Vaticans. Demographics of the area does not make the republic a non macedonian and part of our macedonian history. We celebrate it as a national holiday so i do not understand why should a ethnic bulgarians state sponsored accounts comment under my edit? I am directing and asking macedonians to edit macedonian history ] (]) 14:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::Sorry, but this encyclopedia is based on reliable secondary sources, whose authors are Academics, which are published by University publishers. ] (]) 16:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Valid argument but, again, since there is no detailed guideline as to what belongs in this infobox section, I don't think this rules out inclusion. I don't think the identification of the people matters for inclusion, but the republic's existence of just 10 days might. --] <sup>]</sup> 05:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2024 ==
Sorry ChrisO, you're a liar who used deceipt to make this move. And this is no personal attack, it is the simple fact, no matter how bluntly I put it. And you lied when you made the move from ] to ] yesterday when you labelled it "minor". It was paving the ground for this move today. When I flagged it to you and specifically asked you to comment, you failed to.--] (]) 21:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


{{edit extended-protected|North Macedonia|answered=yes}}
: Moves are automatically marked minor by the software. Secondly, calling people liars is not how we conduct discussions here. Saying it is no personal attack doesn't make it so either. Please discuss this matter civilly. <strong>]<small>•]</small></strong> 21:10, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
i want to write how my people the macedonians call FYROM.I want to change the title of the country in the infobox to the republic of macedonia
:: Sorry but I will not retract, per ]. This is exactly what happened. I'm not talking about software, I'm talking about ChrisO's own words. Check ] yourself.--] (]) 21:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I
::: I said I'd made a minor change to the page naming, and if you look at this is exactly what I did. Adding "(disambiguation)" to the name of a disambiguation page is not an earth-shattering event. -- ] (]) 21:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> are you requesting we remove the "north" from the official name? ] (]) 21:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
:::: This whole episode exactly as it happened will be put in front of ArbCom and I would let them opine.--] (]) 21:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
::: Ah, I now see which use of 'minor' you referred to. I will however still suggest you spend more time arguing your case and less time calling people liars. ChrisO has made a very compelling case above why this title is the proper naming for the country according to Misplaced Pages guidelines; if you wish to change that I suggest you put together an equally compelling case that some other article should use the 'Macedonia' title. <strong>]<small>•]</small></strong> 21:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::Frankly, I see no such compelling case as is referred to by Henrik. As I understand it, the highest policy we have is ], and this unilateral move seems to be to fly in the face of that policy. I very much hope that ChrisO has an answer ready by the time Arbitration opens, and after this it may not wait until next week. Speaking strictly for myself, I have to say that my confidence in his ability to reasonably use the tools of adminship has been very shaken by this action. ] (]) 21:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

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I suggest that under the demonym "Macedonian" we should also include the term "North Macedonian" in the article's tab

I suggest that under the demonym "Macedonian" we should also include the term "North Macedonian" in the article's tab with the description "(unofficial)" alongside for example, colloquially the vast majority of people usually describe something as being "North Macedonian" due to its association with the country in general and not the Macedonian ethnicity specifically. Take the Misplaced Pages article of east Timor for example which uses both terms East Timorese and Timorese in its demonym, or the articles about south and north Korea which also do the same although neither East Timor nor South and North Korea use officially any orientations alongside their endonyms but nonetheless the articles use them to make the content more accurate by also including the common global perception — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎Marenguista di Napoli d'Attica (talk • contribs) 02:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

A demonym, if that's what you're referring to (not endonym as in your heading) is something more specific than just an adjective referring to "something" from a country. A demonym, by definition, is the word that refers to the country's inhabitants. For this country, that word is indeed "Macedonian", and only that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, the word I meant to say was demonym, excuse me for the typo, I fixed it, anyways. Yeah I agree with that statement but it isn't absolute, colloquially the term endonym is used by the global interception as I mentioned before to describe something which isn't specifically related with the ethnicity of a country but the country in general. You can check the examples I mentioned before, the articles of south and north Korea or East Timor. Marenguista di Napoli d'Attica (talk) 11:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Demonym*
My autocorrect keeps changing it, I apologize once again Marenguista di Napoli d'Attica (talk) 11:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
WP:MOSMAC reflects the decision of the wikipedia community and defines what naming should be used about North Macedonia, and a very concrete clique of people have put a lot of effort into ignoring these decisions. It would be nice if I could say that I agree with Future Perfect about the demonym, but I cannot do that because his argument contradicts himself and because of the effort he has made since 2019 to avoid using WP:MOSMAC. "North Macedonian" is absolutely correct wording for everything related to North Macedonia including people, and indeed the adjective "North Macedonian" was used in the main page of North Macedonia as a result of applying the decisions of wikipedians, but during the next years a clique of people who push their agenda found several excuses to avoid both the wording "North Macedonian" and the consensus reached in 2019. Right now there are ZERO usages of North Macedonian in the main page.
My comment regarding the demonym: the name of the people is not defined by any official document, otherwise we wouldn't discuss it. The name of the people is not defined for any country, not only for North Macedonia. Who defines what is the name for people of Germany, UK, Portugal, Brazil? No official document does it.
Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and should report facts that rely on what wording is used to refer to people from North Macedonia based on reliable sources.
I have no reason to disagree that the majority of reliable sources uses plain "Macedonian" for the demonym, but a quick google search shows that the wording "North Macedonian" is used as well to refer to people of North Macedonia according to reliable sources and international organizations. Therefore, what is the motivation to hide this fact from wikipedia? We can include both as demonym and still use the plain Macedonian in the articles. Peace in balkans (talk) 10:56, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
And not only that, but while the article writers avoid to add the second demonym (North Macedonian) to the tab because as they say there's no official agreement which defines it, in the same time they mention inside the article that unofficially "most of citizens and the media still call their country Macedonia" while avoiding to mention that the global community calls them North Macedonian too. Double standards at their finest! It seems indeed there's an agenda behind it.
By this logic then why we keep having "North Korean" for example in North Korea's article tab even though the North Korean government strongly discourages for people to use the term North?
In the article it also mentions that the reason is because that's how it's defined by the global perception, so the global perception applies to North Korea but North Macedonia? What kind of mental gymnastics are these?!
Misplaced Pages unfortunately has starting to lose it's old reliability it seems... 2A02:587:2115:85AA:34E4:E8EC:A74:189A (talk) 02:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Languages in North Macedonia

Article 7 of the North Macedonian constitution says : In the Republic of North Macedonia, the official language is the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic script. - Член 7 Во Република Северна Македонија службен јазик е македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо. Инквизитор771 (talk) 18:39, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Based on Article 7 of the North Macedonian constitution, which states that "In the Republic of North Macedonia, the official language is the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic script," it can be inferred that the Albanian language is not officially recognized as a co-official language in the Republic of North Macedonia. The constitution designates Macedonian as the sole official language. Инквизитор771 (talk) 18:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Furthermore, the Law on Languages of 2019 was not ratified by the President and is deemed to be inconsistent with the North Macedonian Constitution. The Constitutional Court of North Macedonia is set to determine the law's constitutionality in October 2024. Инквизитор771 (talk) 18:44, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Until the Constitutional Court of North Macedonia renders a decision on the legality of the Law on Languages, Macedonian remains the sole official language of the Republic. Инквизитор771 (talk) 18:50, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
In light of these developments, I propose that we temporarily remove references to Albanian as an official language of North Macedonia from this article until the Constitutional Court's decision is finalized. This approach ensures that the content remains consistent with the current constitutional provisions and avoids potential misinformation. Инквизитор771 (talk) 18:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Seems reasonable. --Local hero 22:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Seems like a POV-joke. On 15 January 2019 the Law on the Use of Languages came into effect, despite the refusal of President Gjorge Ivanov to sign off on it. The law was published in the government gazette after being signed by parliament Speaker Talat Xhaferi. In this way Albanian became a second official language in North Macedonia. The Albanian language until then could only be co-official in the areas where the Albanian minority represented at least 20% of the population per the 2008 Law on the Use of Languages spoken by at least 20% of the citizens in the units of the local self-government. The new law extended the official use of Albanian over the entire territory of the country. Under the new legislation, Macedonian continues to be the primary official language, while Albanian may be used now as a second one, including at a national level in official matters. The legislation stipulates also all public institutions in the country will provide Albanian translations in their everyday work. The fact that the constitutional court has been referred to and how and when it will rule on the matter is irrelevant to the current legislation, before the decision of the court, and even afterwards, if the court accepts that the law does not violate the constitution itself. Jingiby (talk) 17:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
Your reply is just a copy-paste of text from Languages of North Macedonia. Anyway, per Article 7 of the constitution, only Macedonian is the official language. The constitutionality of the law mentioned in your copy-paste is pending. That being said, use of Albanian is definitely in more widespread use in reality following this law, whether or not it is constitutional. --Local hero 21:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
My replay is backed by reliable sources in the corresponding article. That above is only POV. Jingiby (talk) 12:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
The constitutional court case is POV to point out? I was referring to the laziness of your reply, not the sourcing backing the text in the article. --Local hero 21:29, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

The Constitutional Court was referred to this issue by the ultra-left, pro-Russian, and even according to some, pro-fascist Levica Party back in 2019. Until now, the court was silent, but after the ultranationalists from DPMNE came to power, the court thought of opening a case. So the issue is not from yesterday and this legislation that has been in effect until now remains valid until the court pronounces.Jingiby (talk) 03:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

According to the Macedonian Constitution the official language is Macedonian. There, there was the new law of 5 January 2019 the Law on the Use of Languages, that makes Albanian co-official. However - is it a silly point to make? - I think Macedonian is not 'co-official' but simply 'official'. Also, Albanian is not co-official in Macedoniandefence, central police and monetary policy. Hence the supremacy in North Macedonia remains with the Macedonian language.
So these points can be made in the article, no? Politis (talk) 19:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, Macedonian is official, while Albanian is co-official. Jingiby (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Your attempt to justify the Law on the Use of Languages is not just misguided—it's an outright farce. The Constitutional Court’s involvement in this issue is riddled with controversies and lacks true legitimacy. It’s no secret that this court has shown favoritism toward nationalist agendas, undermining its credibility.
The insistence on treating Albanian as a co-official language flies in the face of our constitution, which unequivocally states that Macedonian is the sole official language. Until the court rules on this matter, the law is effectively null and void. Continuing to reference Albanian in this context is a dangerous precedent that threatens the very foundation of our national identity.
It's time to face the facts: Albanian should be removed as a co-official language until the court reaches a legitimate decision. Anything less is a disservice to the rule of law and an insult to the Macedonian people. 92.53.18.135 (talk) 11:45, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
I completely agree with this stance. The idea that Albanian should be treated as a co-official language without a proper Constitutional Court ruling is absolutely wrong. Our constitution is clear: Macedonian is the only official language, and any attempts to bypass that with a flawed law should be challenged.
The court itself isn't biased toward nationalist forces as some claim—it's performing its duty to uphold the constitution. The law pushed through in 2019, without proper presidential approval and with the involvement of individuals like Talat Xhaferi, is deeply questionable. Until a legitimate, constitutional ruling is made, Albanian must be removed from any references as a co-official language.
This is about ensuring the rule of law, not bending to political convenience. Ethnicity should never override the clear legal framework that governs our country. Инквизитор771 (talk) 11:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Your attempt to downplay the significance of the co-official status of Albanian is not just misleading; it’s a blatant oversimplification of a complex and critical issue. Yes, Macedonian is the sole official language according to our constitution, but the Law on the Use of Languages that was passed is not merely a footnote—it's a legal document that attempted to elevate Albanian to co-official status across the country.
Claiming that Macedonian is simply “official” while Albanian holds a “co-official” designation implies that Albanian can be sidelined, which undermines the impact of that law and disregards the voices of significant segments of our population. You may argue that Albanian is not recognized in certain areas like defense or monetary policy, but that only highlights the inconsistency and contentiousness of this legislation, which is currently awaiting a constitutional verdict.
This situation creates a precarious legal landscape where the implications of such laws could destabilize our national identity and legal system. The supremacy of Macedonian language should be reflected not just in theory but in practice. Until we have a definitive ruling from the Constitutional Court, the existence of Albanian as a co-official language is legally questionable and should be challenged vigorously.
Your assertion that this can simply be brushed off as a "silly point" only reveals a lack of understanding of the broader implications for our society. This is not just about semantics; it’s about preserving the constitutional integrity of North Macedonia. Инквизитор771 (talk) 11:52, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Your comments just further expose your own POV and inability to objectively evaluate the topic at hand (i.e., refusal to use 'VMRO-DPMNE' in comments, bringing up irrelevant ideological leanings of Levica, etc.). That the constitution only names Macedonian as official must be noted in the article. --Local hero 02:21, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
First of all i'm sick of you, your entire response reeks of bad faith and an inability to engage in a constructive conversation. Resorting to cheap shots about my supposed "POV" only shows you're trying to avoid the real issue. Whether I mention VMRO-DPMNE or Levica is irrelevant to the fact that the constitution clearly names Macedonian as the only official language. That’s a legal fact, not an opinion, and your attempt to downplay it shows your own bias.
As for the "law on languages," it is currently under review by the Constitutional Court. Until there is a final ruling, it's reckless and misleading to claim that Albanian has been definitively established as a co-official language. The law’s constitutionality is being questioned, and it would be premature for Misplaced Pages to recognize something that might soon be overturned. The objectivity you so self-righteously claim to uphold demands we respect the current legal framework, not indulge in wishful thinking.
Instead of dodging the issue, I suggest you stick to the facts at hand: the constitution only recognizes Macedonian, and the court’s decision will determine whether that changes. Trying to manipulate language for political reasons violates Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy. So drop the baseless accusations and deal with the actual legal status of the languages in Macedonia. Инквизитор771 (talk) 21:09, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
I expect a proper, respectful discussion moving forward, without resorting to propaganda or political games. The national identity and unity of Macedonia are not up for negotiation, and it’s time for an honest, fact-based conversation. Stop dodging the issue and talk to me directly if you have any valid points to make. Инквизитор771 (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
AND stop dodging this topic - Еднаш збори со мене ко нормален човек ако сакаш можеме на македонски да збориме прекини да бегаш од темава. Инквизитор771 (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
The Constitutional Court is set to hold a constitutive session on December 11, 2024, regarding the legality of the 2019 Law on Languages. It is important to acknowledge that the outcomes of this session, as determined by the court, are binding and must be respected. This is a critical moment for upholding the rule of law and ensuring adherence to Macedonia's constitutional principles. Инквизитор771 (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Establishment history

Why is Krusevo republic 1903 not added? 89.205.124.12 (talk) 00:52, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't know of any clear guidelines as to what should be included in that field of the infobox. For instance, Albania lists a whole bunch of things, while Italy is very concise. --Local hero 02:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
The section is intended for "key event in history of country/territory's status or formation" in support of the "Brief description of country/territory's status ("Independence ", "Autonomous province ", etc)". However, both fields are often misapplied for a variety of reasons. CMD (talk) 03:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
1903 is a national holiday for the state. It should definitely be added 89.205.124.12 (talk) 10:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I think it should be added considering 1903/1944/1991 are all national holidays and important days for the modern history of the country. 89.205.124.12 (talk) 10:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
There are some problems with this claim. Firstly: the short-lived formation in question covered only one small town and does not have the characteristics of a real country. Secondly: the population of the town at that time consisted of different ethno-religious and linguistic communities that do not identify themselves as ethnic Macedonians. Jingiby (talk) 10:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Oh look the state sponsored account from Sofia that edits Macedonian history. First of all we did identify as Macedonian my own ancestor fought there and he identified as macedonian :) That small republic covered almost 500km2 which is 1,000 Vaticans. Demographics of the area does not make the republic a non macedonian and part of our macedonian history. We celebrate it as a national holiday so i do not understand why should a ethnic bulgarians state sponsored accounts comment under my edit? I am directing and asking macedonians to edit macedonian history 89.205.124.12 (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, but this encyclopedia is based on reliable secondary sources, whose authors are Academics, which are published by University publishers. Jingiby (talk) 16:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Valid argument but, again, since there is no detailed guideline as to what belongs in this infobox section, I don't think this rules out inclusion. I don't think the identification of the people matters for inclusion, but the republic's existence of just 10 days might. --Local hero 05:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2024

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i want to write how my people the macedonians call FYROM.I want to change the title of the country in the infobox to the republic of macedonia I

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. are you requesting we remove the "north" from the official name? Cannolis (talk) 21:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
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