Revision as of 19:14, 20 November 2005 view sourceFred Bauder (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users46,115 edits →[] and others acting in concert: Accepted← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 03:40, 31 January 2023 view source AmandaNP (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Bureaucrats, Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators45,695 edits What the actual fuckTags: Replaced Undo | ||
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{{Short description|Wikimedia project page}} | |||
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{{/Case}} | |||
{{/Clarification and Amendment}} | |||
{{/Motions}} | |||
{{/Enforcement}} | |||
] | |||
'''Request for arbitration''' is the last step of ]. Before requesting arbitration, please review ] you should take. If you do not follow any of these routes, it is highly likely that your request will be rejected. If all other steps have failed, and you see no reasonable chance that the matter can be resolved in another manner, you may request that it be decided by the ]. | |||
] | |||
{{clearright}} | |||
{{dispute-resolution}} | |||
{{ArbComOpenTasks}} | |||
The procedure for accepting requests is described in the ]. If you are going to make a request here, you must be brief and cite supporting diffs. New requests to the top, please. You are required to place a notice on the user talk page of each person you lodge a complaint against. | |||
'''0/0/0/0''' corresponds to Arb Com member votes to '''accept/ reject/ ]/ other'''. | |||
This is not a page for discussion, and Arbitrators may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment. | |||
*] | |||
*] (shortcut ]) | |||
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*] | |||
*] | |||
== How to list cases == | |||
Under the below '''Current requests''' section: | |||
*''Click "";'' | |||
*''Copy the full formatting '''template''' (text will be visible in edit mode), ommitting the lines which say "BEGIN" and "END TEMPLATE";'' | |||
*''Paste template text where it says "ADD CASE BELOW";'' | |||
*''Follow instructions on comments (indented), and fill out the form;'' | |||
*''Remove the template comments (indented).'' | |||
''Note: Please do not remove or alter the hidden template'' | |||
= Current requests = | |||
---- | |||
<!-- // BEGIN TEMPLATE - copy text below (not this line) // | |||
== Case name == | |||
(Title for case - use names of defendants) | |||
===Involved parties=== | |||
(Provide links to the user page of each party and to all accounts they have edited with. Briefly summarize case. No details.) | |||
; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request | |||
(Provide diffs showing where parties other than the initiating parties have been informed about the request for arbitration.) | |||
; Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried | |||
(''If not, then explain why that would be fruitless'') | |||
===Statement by party 1=== | |||
(Please limit your statement to 500 words) | |||
===Statement by party 2=== | |||
(Please limit your statement to 500 words) | |||
===Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)=== | |||
// END TEMPLATE - copy text above (not this line) // --> | |||
<!-- ADD CASE BELOW --> | |||
== Regarding the 2004 U.S. presidential election controversy == | |||
===Involved parties=== | |||
Most prominantly ], although others are involved. | |||
; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request | |||
On his talk page. | |||
; Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried | |||
(''If not, then explain why that would be fruitless'') | |||
This dispute has been ongoing for well over a year, and is a dispute of wilful POV pushing and revert warring. Among the contributors is Kevin Baas, who narrowly escaped a previous arbcom case. The issue has appeared on the mailing list, and numerous editors have already weighed in. | |||
===Statement by Snowspinner=== | |||
] and its associated sub-articles have been drowning in original research, POV, and edit warring since their creation. So far an astonishing 50,000 words have been written on the matter, all meticulously sourced. However, the sourcing is overwhelmingly towards nonnotable and POV sources, and the articles have been tightly controlled by their creators so as to stifle any attempts at dissent, including addition of NPOV and original research tags. The result has been to keep mostrously bad work on Misplaced Pages that stands in violation of numerous policies. Most flagrant in this has been ], who has added copyvio material to the article and persistantly refused to acknowledge the existence of an NPOV dispute, defending all sources, including things such as treating ], the founder of Ben and Jerry's, as a notable source on election fraud, the use of partisan blogs as a major source, and the production of original research through novel aggregation of facts. Simply put, the articles have grown unmanagably bad, and none of the tools offered to editors are making a significant effort in fixing them - I ask for the arbcom to put some rules on articles that will allow editors invested in NPOV to do the gut-editing these articles need without sparking yet another revert war. ] 18:50, 18 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
====Ammendment==== | |||
I would think that , Several of , , (Particularly the second), and some variation on the "cite sources" policy, although none of the listed principles apply. | |||
Particular tactics of stonewalling and edit warring that seem to me greivously offensive are the removal of NPOV tags despite a well-stated dispute (I did not revert war this point) as with . (Note that a list of every problematic citation has been on the talk page for quite a while now). Also problematic is the insistence on leaving bad information in place until it is fixed instead of removing badly sourced and POV material and reconstructing the article from there - in other words, an insistence on leaving the article in its POV and bad form until the task of creating a "perfect" article is finished. Examples of this mentality are at and . Further problematic is the usage of a GAO report as direct source material for the article - paragraphs were copied wholesale into the article. This is not copyvio (The GAO report is public domain), but it's still the importation of original research, and the entire thing was quoted to a Wired Magazine article instead of directly to the report. | |||
Aggressively reverting all attempts to tag an article with a dispute tag or to remove material that is sourced to extremist blogs and ice cream moguls is a violation of policies. Since it's a dispute with quite a few editors, an article content RfC would be most appropriate, which consists of a link to the article - two VfDs on the entire block of articles and a mailing list post have clearly directed enough outside editors. As is usually the case with situations like this, the outside editors made a noble effort, got reverted, and wandered off to do other things. | |||
That enough specific evidence of policy issues? ] 16:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
====Response to Fred==== | |||
I do not think it is primarily a content dispute - the case it most resembles is the first Lyndon LaRouche case - in fact, the central issue with the provided sources (Reliance on mutually self-referential sources from a minor and extremist point of view) is identical in both cases. But it is, to my mind, a dispute over the application of several policies - NPOV, NOR, as well as article ownership. It's certainly nothing that hasn't been dealt with by the arbcom before - see and for examples of cases that have similar relationships to content. ] 17:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:The question of the reliability of sources remains unsettled. Unreliable sources may not be used, reliable sources may be, but the location of the dividing line is uncertain. It may depend on context. ] 19:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Have a look at - at least my first post in that thread, in which I go over all 68 of the sources. Among the things being used are Green Party press releases, geocities pages, webforum threads, blog posts, and several citations to Michael Moore, all made without crediting the claims in any sort of "Michael Moore alledges" way. ] 20:18, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by Carbonite=== | |||
The main problem with these articles (see ] for a mostly complete list) is that they grew extremely fast and were quickly considered "owned" by a tiny group of editors. Attempts to remove even the most trivial of information are usually met with reverts and demands to justify all changes. I strongly urge the ArbCom to accept arbitration on this matter. ] | ] 19:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/3/1/1)=== | |||
* Recuse. ] 22:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Reject. The Committee is not your mother. There is not enough substance to this. ] ] 13:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Reject, without prejudice. Come back when you have a better statement of what conduct is violating what policy. Conclusive pleadings will not be accepted. May I suggest a ]? ] (]) 13:42, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
*Reject, as per Kelly. ] ] 13:51, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
*My feeling is that you are asking us to engage in a policy debate ] 16:47, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
== ], ], and ] == | |||
===Involved parties=== | |||
I request a merge to the previous case on Onefortyone seeking an addendum stating that Wyss and Ted Wilkes lay off 141. In my personal opinion they have been harassing him, and I've seen them go out of their way to revert him. ]]] (]) 02:56, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
; Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried | |||
Well, this very step has been tried by Ted Wilkes it seems. He has tried to RfAr Fred Bauder over this all. I would like to get a wiki-restraining order between Onefortyone and the two others. ]]] (]) 02:56, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by party 1=== | |||
(Please limit your statement to 500 words) | |||
===Statement by party 2=== | |||
<i>The filer of this RfAr has taken no steps towards any sort of dispute resolution or mediation and contrary to the template instructions, has declined to explain why he thinks such efforts would be presumably fruitless</i>. Meanwhile, 141 is currently on probation for abusive editing practices and tactics. I was mistaken in my initial impression that he'd been prohibited from editing celebrity articles because I misinterpreted some related edit summaries before before being contacted by Fred Bauder and reading the arbcom decision for myself. After I was contacted by Fred Bauder that single time, I never touched the articles again. Aside from Fred Bauder, ''nobody has ever meaningfully contacted me about my behaviour towards 141 in the past''. I think it's because few really care about the inclusion of unsupported gossip in celebrity articles... it is rather boring, truth be told. Anyway I'm always open to helpful suggestions in these efforts to stabilize the articles involved. | |||
Arbcom members are respectfully requested not to conflate past issues concerning 141 with my recent attempts to explain Ted Wilkes' long and extremely unpopular RfAr against Fred Bauder on the project talk page. Given the timing of this RfAr, I'm convinced that the filer has included me in it as backhanded punishment for my commentary concerning Ted Wilkes' above-mentioned RfAr. I have informed the filer that this is a blatant, abusive breach of WP policy and that I am deeply unhappy about it. This RfAr is not necessary since any active admin or bureaucrat can contact me on my talk page and politely ask me to desist from any given behaviour and I more than likely will. | |||
As for ], with whom I cannot remember having had any contact in the past, readers will please note that I began using metaphors (which he cites below) only after he and others had begun directing sarcasm at me on this project's talk page. I was trying to lightheartedly diffuse that by repeating back their metaphors myself in my replies. For example, Calton was the first to use the ''signal-to-noise-ratio'' metaphor, as a reference to wordiness. Later, he posted the following note to me, which I think speaks for itself. | |||
::I write short words. You not grasp sense, but throw dirt in its place. But you ask Fred and others to grasp very long words by Ted. This make no sense. This called "double standard." You use long words wrong (like "vandalism") even when people tell you it is wrong. You call people "trolls" for when they say you are wrong. This called "bad faith." | |||
::I write short words. You not grasp sense, but throw dirt in its place. I say I will write with big letters and short words. I say I will send to you so you can grasp sense. You still not grasp sense but throw more dirt, so I make more clear now. See? | |||
::Where can I mail notes to you? I will use as many stamps as I need. --] | ] 04:55, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
Because Misplaced Pages's applied sourcing methodologies are not at academic levels across the encyclopedia I will no longer be participating in this project. ] 16:27, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by party 3=== | |||
] falsely accused me of spamdexing and childish vandalism. See ] and ]. Significantly, user Wyss and Ted Wilkes are frequently accusing me of being a spammer, a vandal, a liar, a troll, of fabricating texts, etc. See ], , etc. etc. Ted Wilkes has repeatedly deleted paragraphs from talk and article pages. See , , , , . He deleted a new paragraph written by me on Elvis's consumption of drugs calling this paragraph a "continued diatribe" and a "mass of personal opinions, snide or derogatory allusions", though he himself had suggested this section. See and . He even falsely claimed to have moved content from the Talk:Elvis Presley/Homosexuality page to the Talk:Elvis Presley/Sexuality page, but the content has been totally deleted by him. See . Wyss accused administrator ] of being a troll. See and . Both Ted Wilkes and Wyss are denigrating all books and articles I have used for my Misplaced Pages contributions. They are constantly reverting my edits, which are supported by several independent, and published, sources, presumably because these sources are not in line with their personal view. For instance, they have repeatedly called reputed biographer ], which was one of my sources, a gossip book writer, referring to a positive ''Guardian'' review which actually said "For bitchy, witty and perceptive high-class gossip about Hollywood, there was no better source than the critic, screenwriter, novelist and biographer Gavin Lambert." See also ]. Ted Wilkes repeatedly violated the 3RR in the past and was blocked for doing so. See ]. Significantly, another user stated on the ] page: "what I find weird is that whenever someone writes something 'bad' about Elvis ( be it drug abuse, derogatory nicknames, sexual orientation or the way he died ), somehow the 'system' prevents those things from staying there for too long." See . There are similar deleting tactics by ]. See , , , | |||
, , , , , . | |||
For a discussion of Wyss's deleting tactics, see ]. The blanket reversions continue. Recently, contributions by administrator ] were also reverted by Wyss and Ted Wilkes. See , , and ]. ] 04:24, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
I am now providing diffs that show both Wyss and Wilkes of harrassing Onefortyone ''after'' arbitration closed on 3 November 2005: | |||
*On 6 November, Ted Wilkes falsely claimed that I had violated probation. He says, "I removed your improper edit regarding the Memphis Mafia. Your actions here and fabrication at ] are unacceptable. See ]. | |||
*Since 8 November, Ted Wilkes and Wyss repeatedly reverted my contributions to the ] article referring to the Arbitration Committee ruling. See , , , . Wyss was even asking in his edit summary, "why hasn't this user been blocked as per the arbcom ruling?" Administrator ] reinstated most parts of my edits (see ), but his contributions were also repeatedly reverted by Ted Wilkes. See and ]. | |||
*Since 7 November, there were also numerous reverts by Ted Wilkes and Wyss of my contributions to the ] page. See , , . Wyss falsely claimed in his edit summary that he was reverting "edits by user who has been banned from editing celebrity articles". See . Ted Wilkes even removed the version by administrator ]. See , . | |||
*Since 8 November, both Ted Wilkes and Wyss were reverting my contributions to the ] article. See , , , . Wilkes also reverted the version by administrator ]. See , | |||
Here are some diffs that show ''anyone'' attempting good faith efforts to resolve these cases of harrassment after they occurred: | |||
*] page: , , , . | |||
*] page: , , , . . ] 22:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
On 18 November 2005, ] still accused me on his talk page of having used the rumours section of an article "as a wedge from which to seed Elvis Presley with Google-friendly keywords which would lead to tabloid books by David Brent." See . Such an absurd accusation clearly shows that Wyss is not really willing to put an end to the edit war with me. ] 21:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by ]=== | |||
I find Wyss' statement that he'll knock off his misapplication of Onefortyone's probation if asked by an admin to be more than a little disingenuous, considering | |||
*that he HAS been notified by an admin, Fred Bauder. | |||
*that he is being notified of his misapprehension of the probation '''by one of the people who actually crafted it''', so therefore might be expected to have first-hand knowledge of what it means. | |||
*that he falsely characterizes Fred Bauder's post as a threat of ArbCom, since what it actually says is ''I think complaints are justified. If he took you to arbitration over this I would vote to accept the case'', which is a (in my opinion accurate) characterization of Wyss's behavior and its potential consequences. | |||
--] | ] 04:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
'''Addendum''': I'll note that Wyss's addition doesn't respond to s single one of the points I raised, in addition to throwing in an out-of-context quote. He left off the preceding posts, whereby he, despite claiming that the ArbCom members are expected to plow through all 3,000 words of Ted Wilkes' request below and sift for the nuggets of meaning... | |||
::''And petitioners who can't take the time to read that their statements should be 500 words in length and at least arrive in the ballpark of that should be rejected out of hand. If there's a complaint, phrase it coherently - don't expect the arbcom to be psychic. ] 00:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)'' | |||
:::''I'm not sure psychic powers are part of the required skill set for reading, but maybe Ted Wilkes can edit it down when he has a chance. ] 00:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)'' | |||
...he then, in groundlessly questioning my qualification to comment (''...have you familiarized yourself with the background on this or are you only guessing?''), he professes to not understand my simple 92-word answer (''Could you please be more specific about the background materials you've checked into? Your own signal-to-noise ratio got rather high in that last post'') AND its bullet-pointed follow-up. | |||
In other words, he's being disingenuous and evasive, and it appears to be his normal operating mode. He certainly lacks any standing to complain about sarcasm, given his liberal use of it. --] | ] 06:57, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by ] re wyss wilkes and onefortyone=== | |||
] closed on 3 November 2005. Please provide diffs that show both Wyss and Wilkes of "harrassing" onefortyone ''after'' arbitration closed. (A brief look at the statement by onefortyone shows that most diffs of alleged bad behaviour occur in September or October.) Then please provide diffs that show ''anyone'' attempting good faith efforts to resolve these alleged cases of harrassment after they occurred. No, a request for arbitration by Wyss or Wilkes against Fred Bauder does not satisfy either an example of harrassment against onefortyone or an attempt to resolve said harrassment. | |||
Furthermore, FredBauder is far too involved with these editors to accept or reject this request for arbitration against Wyss and Wilkes. Fred should have recused himself from Wilkes's RFA against him, and he should ''clearly'' recuse himself from this one. That he accepted this RFA against Wilkes and Wyss without a single diff showing either editor actually harassing onefortyone or a single diff showing anyone actually trying to resolve the alleged behaviour is telling. | |||
This whole thing has gotten out of hand, to the point that numerous editors have gotten emotionally involved. And I mean "numerous". And I don't mean "everyone you percieve to be the enemy here". Given a complete lack of evidence of misbehaviour, a complete lack evidence of any real attempt to resolve the alleged misbehaviour, and the acceptance by a member of arbcom who has a clear conflict of interest, I call a time out and a cooling off period. Everyone gets to go to their respective corners and chill out for a while. Because this is looking far more like someone is getting railroaded than any sort of legitimate attempt to resolve a real dispute. ] 06:42, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
(update) user onefortyone has provided some diffs that have occurred since the arbcom case has closed. All the dates for the diffs occur in November, so I'm just going to provide the diffs with just the date of the month in them. This is what it looks like when laid out sequentially. | |||
evidence of disputed behaviour: | |||
attempts to resove dispute: | |||
So, pretty much all the diffs of disputed behaviour occurred ''before'' anyone attempted to resolve the dispute. The two attempts to resolve on the 11th were both by the same person, JackofOz, which doesn't meet the RfC requrement and they're fairly indirect attempts. Assuming you count those attempts, you're looking at a total of four diffs of alleged harrassment that occurred on or after the 11th . I don't know how much of a stickler arbcom is, but four edits doesn't seem to warrant their attention. The serious attempts to resolve the dispute seem to have occurred on teh 13th, when Kelly Martin weighs in and clarifies an arbcom ruling (Wyss or Wilkes or both cited the arbcom ruling in some of their edits that are cited as alleged harrassment. I don't know what the ruling was, but it would seem that whatever Kelly told them, plus multiple attempts to resolve the issue, cleared things up and resolved whatever problem existed). There are no diffs of alleged harrassment provided that occur after the 13th. Personally, I would declare that the attempts to resolve the dispute on the 13th, did in fact, ''resolve'' the dispute. Can we move on now? ] 22:55, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (3/0/0/0)=== | |||
* Accept ] 04:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept (as an addenndum to the original 141 case seems sensible). ] ] 13:28, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept. ] (]) 14:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
== EffK, formerly known as Famekeeper == | |||
===Involved parties=== | |||
*], complaining party (party 1) | |||
*], defendant | |||
*], defendant | |||
This editor has been engaging in an extended effort to use Misplaced Pages to present a theory of ] complicity in and active support of ]. This effort has involved personal attacks on other editors, accusations of bad faith (including that other editors are acting as agents of the Vatican), and using article talk pages as a soapbox. | |||
; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request | |||
Defendant's response shows that he is aware of the request. ] 12:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
; Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried | |||
A user conduct Request for Comments was posted in July 2005. The link has been deleted from the user conduct RfC page, but the RfC itself is available at ]. The RfC summarizes the previous steps that were taken prior to posting the RfC. | |||
===Statement by party 1=== | |||
The RfC contains a summary of the conduct in question. | |||
Also see the following diff of a frivolous request by the editor in question to ban another editor: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration&diff=27989592&oldid=27748413 | |||
===Statement by party 2=== | |||
Concurrent to this RfA I posted ] my sole disputant, ] ,],]] - ],],], and to Robert Mcclenon ( talk )(false mediator ] ,],] , ] ,] ,] , ]. See :] , updated talk at ] | |||
McClenon does not understand , ],],]], ] the sources ] of my bulk contributions ]],],]],], and WP corrections , ] ,]], ] , nor my real disputant : ],] ,]](] ,, McC thinks or pretends that I represent a vandalous attacker upon the church, when I bring only published source ],] | |||
I have never wanted to give an email to WP , and so cookie-loss means I changed name variations. | |||
As to Str1977 , pages ], ] and ] for today 17 November 2005 , will show that an ''anon'' & Str1977 , after a 3/4 year edit-war cf: ] ,], has accepted the gist of my sources ] ,and NPOV ]. I believe that WP has finally enabled me to correct the Str1977 ,and , after irksome discourse (filibustering to McClenon) I have repaired serious fault in WP . | |||
Str1977 by present allowance of my edits which he consistently removed (in provocative manner ] ,] ,],], ]) over 12 months , the same day that Mcclenon starts this RfA , proves the RfA a form of ''ad hominem'' ,illustrating the WP faith problem] better than my supposed crime. | |||
This is McClenon's second case against me (RfC) & I signed , a day late an RfC against him as lying bully . I take no pleasure here ],] , nor enjoy intellectual provocation and denial of source by means solely of the two users' ''interpretation'' ] . | |||
I believe this RfA is last ditch attempt to remove the accusations made by the world ] at large ], ] , ] from Misplaced Pages , following from my demands that ] ,the opposition ( my good friend nevertheless ], ], Str1977 ]] ''put up or shut up'' . The ''new'' allowance of my edits to remain within the above articles , is the result. | |||
My blocker ],] has always been Str1977, who hopefully has stopped the denialism ]] ] . I was suggested by Jimbo to leave , I did for 2 months, WP deteriorated as I proved and I came back because three users , one Str1977 started posting "FK research" , my location by country , and shared accusatory condemnation of me in WP, calling me a paranoid schizophrenic conspiracy theorist with writing disability ]. | |||
'''All these users should be admonished''' . | |||
This ] ] , thorniest historical issue is defended here by actual '''denialism'' , ] ,] , of source ]],] something reflected in greater cyberspace . I openly claimed recently there is not one political error I have made so far . I unknowingly concurrently of this RfA sought an apology from McClenon and congratulate Str1977 on final good sense in accepting my NPOV . Links may follow. ] 01:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Caveat=== | |||
At the moment let me just note | |||
*that EffK's statement about our agreement are wrong. Some things he has posted I have never disputed, while other things I continue to dispute. To say we have reached an agreement or that I have accepted the gist is untrue, unless he has suddenly withdrawn his theories. Hence I place doubt upon the congratulations. | |||
*that EffK is far from having made no error (I don't know what "political" means here | |||
*that I was not EffK/Famekeeper's sole disputant, though the main one. Other editor, e.g. ] were involved with him as well. | |||
*that I meant no harm in posting "FK Research" - it was basically a reaction to his inquisitiveness about personal details of other editors (Robert McClenon in particular), his own seclusiveness in that matter and his insistence on being a native speaker. | |||
I don't know whether this is the right place to post this. If it isn't, please drop me a line and show where I should place this. ] 10:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (2/0/1/0)=== | |||
* Accept. ] ] 13:30, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept. ] (]) 14:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Recuse (Wikinfo editor) ] 19:34, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
===Involved parties=== | |||
* ] | |||
and | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
====Brief summary==== | |||
] repeatedly places content at ], despite consensus that it be merged/redirected to ] and ]. | |||
====Confirmation of awareness of request==== | |||
Notices were placed on the following pages: | |||
* ] - | |||
* ] - | |||
* ] - | |||
* ] - | |||
* ] - | |||
* As I'm the one filing the RFArb, I can be assumed to be aware of it without a note on my user page. | |||
===Previous attempts at ]=== | |||
Extensive discussion has been held on the following pages. In all cases, the consensus was that any new content in ] should be merged into ] and/or ], with ] itself being a redirect to one of these pages. | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
Additional attempts to explain to ] what the rationale for the merge/redirect was were made on: | |||
* ] | |||
Additional correspondence has occurred via email. If users choose to quote it, it can be put in their statements. | |||
===Statement by ]=== | |||
I became aware of ] when it appeared on ] as a page needing cleanup. At that point, it had been merged/redirected to ] at least twice. After surveying the associated conversation threads on ] and ], I concluded that it did indeed appear to be duplicate material, and reverted to the most recent redirect page. Since then, it has been repeatedly restored by ] and reverted by other users. | |||
], ], and others have tried to explain to ] that a duplication of material from ] and ] really isn't a good idea, that he should expand those two articles if he feels they aren't sufficiently thorough, and have requested that he improve his fact-checking, spelling, and grammar both in ] and in his changes to ] and ]. I've stayed out of this. | |||
I received Misplaced Pages-relayed email on 15 Nov. 2005 from ] accusing me of malicious vandalism. I attempted to explain relevant Misplaced Pages policies regarding duplication of content. While he hasn't called me names since then, comments on ] indicate that other users have been called similar things by him. --] 04:33, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Point of clarification: I've started an RFC, as suggested by ], but I have strong doubts that it will accomplish much. It may give formal approval to getting an admin to lock ] in redirect form, but ] has already spent much effort attempting to modify ] in ways that other editors have not considered appropriate, indicating that his disputed editing activities are not limited to the ] article. The reason that I went straight to RFArb is that I do not think that ] will accept instructions to change his ways unless they have the ArbCom's backing. Several editors, including myself, have repeatedly tried to point him at the relevant policies and explain matters already (per talk page cites above). This does not appear to have had any substantial impact. --] 21:31, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Additional diff showing ]'s resistance to Misplaced Pages process, and disrespect for other Misplaced Pages users: | |||
: Choice quotes include: | |||
: ''What have here is some immature megalomanic , no good kids with an unreasonable and rationaly absurd, attitude trying to inflate their ego by abusing me,and doing me wrong (...)'' | |||
: ''What you did was stupid, rationaly absurd, abusive arbritary, and wrong. You merely showed that you are immature , megalomaniac (...)'' | |||
===Statement by ]=== | |||
(Please limit your statement to 500 words) | |||
The other partys in this dispute have been wrongly deleting and redirecting an article, I wrote in wickipedia called A-Bomb. I want this article restored as a stand alone article in wickipedia. I seek to enforce my right to have my own A-bomb article , which is separate from the nuclear weapons article, and the nuclear weapon design articles in wickipedia. | |||
That is all I want. That it is alll I seek here. I want the other parties to this dispute to leave my A-bomb article in wickipedia alone. The other partys in this dispute have no right to insist that their nuclear weapons articles be the only wickipedia articles about nuclear weapons. They have no right to act like malicous vandals by deleting, and redirecting my A-bomb article. If I were to delete and redirect their nuclear weapons article,again , and again in order to insist that my A-bomb article be the only one in wickepedia , and their articles be deleted, and redirected in favor of my A-bomb article : I would be doing them a wrong. I demand that the wrong doing of the other partys in this dispute against me me ,and against my A-bomb article be ended. Tmayes1999 | |||
===Statement by ]=== | |||
The user has a somewhat fundamental misunderstanding about how Misplaced Pages works, both socially and technically (so far, is the best example of both issues). I began with the assumption that with a patient explanation and polite assistance the user would eventually come around and be able to channel his obvious enthusiasm into producing good content. However this does not seem to have been the case, and the user has not provided any indications of change in a positive direction or willingness to address the criticisms by others. | |||
I second the factual account given by ] above. Though I'll admit it is a bit condescending to say, I feel a bit sorry for the editor in question because they are clearly in some way very confused, and they clearly have enthusiasm about the topic but are unable at this point to express it in a productive manner, for reasons unknown to me. | |||
===Statement by ]=== | |||
In ] ] asked why ] had a separate article, this is when I first became involved with this issue. I stated there that as A-bomb was poorly written, full of factual errors and redundant that it should be but up for AfD and that it was my intention to do so if there was some support from other editors. The conclusion, after several exchanges, and an attempt to clean it up, was that the article should be redirected, and so it was. Detailed reasons were given to ] who failed to responded with rational counterarguments but instead only kept asserting that he wanted the A-bomb article restored. His final communication to us was as follows: | |||
:I want my A-bomb article restored and left alone by the people who have been trying to delete it or redirect it. THAT IS ALL THAT ASK FOR . THESE PEOPLE WERE IN THE WRONG TO TAMPER WITH MY A-BOMB ARTICLE. i AM VERY ANGRY ABOUT THIS MATTER. FROM ARBRITATION : i WANT JUSTICE. I WANT THIS GREAT WRONG CORRECTED. TMAYES1999 ''(sic)'' | |||
*] 05:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/5/0/0)=== | |||
* Reject for now. Start a rfc on this. if the community agrees it's better to have A bomb as a redirect to nuclear weapon then do it and get an admin to protect the page. You don't need us to sort this one out. ] [[User talk:Theresa knott| (a tenth stroke)]] 07:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Reject per Theresa. ] (]) 12:06, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Reject ] 18:25, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Reject. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 20:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Reject, far too early, as with Theresa. ] ] 13:21, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
== ], ], others == | |||
===Case by FT2=== | |||
;Article: ] (]) | |||
==== Involved parties==== | |||
'''Users concerned (Note: new suspected sock-puppets get added regularly)''' | |||
The five main users discussed in this RFArb: | |||
* ] (] | ) | |||
* ] (] | ) | |||
* ] (] | ), also apparently edited as ] (] | ) | |||
* ] (] | ) | |||
* ] (] | ) | |||
Additional suspected accounts, sock-puppets or cronies (primarily NLP talk page): | |||
* ] (] | ) | |||
* ] (] | ) | |||
* ] (] | ) | |||
Not all of these accounts are causing problems to an equal degree as others. Roughly the above list is in order from most actual damage to date, to least. The first 5 at least have each been persistently disruptive through to vandalistic since first visiting. | |||
==== Brief summary of case ==== | |||
The ] ("NLP") article has been damaged by aggressive POV warrioring. The named accounts (including sockpuppets, meatpuppets and cronies) are all one-use accounts, created within the same short time period. Their appearance here is connected to vandalism, disruption and POV warfare by ], in combination with a posted on the Yahoo skeptics-forum in September encouraging forum users to visit the Misplaced Pages NLP article. The users, acting in broad concert , have been engaging in a common behavior of extreme POV warfare, vandalism, sock-puppeteering, and ongoing breach of policy on that article ever since. Despite RfC and mediation, a large number of explanations by various users of ] and other policies, and a second attempt at mediation purely focussing upon NPOV aspects of the matter, the behavior remains constant. Several explicit warnings were given of referral to Arbcom (), combined with courteous requests to comply with key WP policies despite personal attacks and lack of civility to other editors. These measures failing and the problems continuing unabated, bona fide wikipedians working on this article voted 7-0 that mediation is fruitless, and to approach ArbCom for a ban on editing on the subject of NLP and its associated articles by the above and by their associated cronies. | |||
; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request | |||
All parties have been notified, both by general notice on the article's talk page and individually: , , , , , , , , | |||
; Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried | |||
The article and its editors have run the gamut of reasonable discussion. | |||
The Neuro-linguistic programming article has been through discussion, dispute, RfC (linguistics) , and 5 weeks of mediation. I asked for mediation a second time specifically with ] (Oct 30). A formal talk page vote was finally held (Nov. 3) and editors agreed 7-0 that mediation should be deemed unlikely to be fruitful and the matter passed to ArbCom for a ruling. | |||
==== Statement by ]==== | |||
The ] article, which has for the most part been well run in a civil manner in the past, has been disrupted principally by users ], ], but also with POV degradation, personal attacks and/or remarks by others such as ], ] and ]. There is now strong suspicion that most if not all of the named users may be ]s, due to similarities in their editing and histories. <!--(All eight arrived on the article at a similar time, with similar styles, at the same time of day, and with one minor exception have not been significantly involved in any article except this one). -->Having run the gamut of reasonable discussion, other contributors to the page in question voted to request arbitration. | |||
None of the users named have made any any significant contribution to any topic other than this one topic and other NLP-related articles (with the exception of DaveRight on ] and ]). In some instances they have continued their POV approach on NLP to the detriment of other pages too. In essense, they have acted as POV warriors with a single viewpoint who have proven unable or uninterested in the wiki approach or policies, and have little interest in anything beyond their own view. (eg, see: '']'' by JPLogan). Fundamentally they do not seem to show the slightest ability or care for collaborating in a wiki manner. Indeed their idea of collaboration is insults and ignoring or dismissal of issues, often with personal attacks and remarks. Since apparently joining Misplaced Pages at similar times (HeadleyDown Aug 2005, JPLogan and AliceDeGrey Sept 2005, DaveRight Oct 2005, etc), all have done virtually no other editing except POV degradation on the NLP article and/or negative talk page comments to its existing editors. | |||
Accordingly it is the majority sense of those presenting this request that an appropriate ban from Misplaced Pages NLP editing is appropriate, and this is what is requested. | |||
;Examples of POV warring (DIFF examples of each given in the ArbCom vote on the article talk page): | |||
* POV suppression | |||
* 3RR breach reported | |||
* Repeated deletion of sourced material or cited fact about the subject by reputable authors, often followed by addition of more POV material. | |||
* Personal attacks (including assumption of bad faith).<!-- | |||
* Misleading edit summaries | |||
* Attempts to exercise and take control of the article--> | |||
* Ignoring of requests to discuss edits | |||
* Citation of fraudulent credentials of renown ascribed to an author to back up a slanted source (a web opinion presented as scientific "research") | |||
* Falsely representing the opinion of professional bodies or ignoring their actual opinions ''as stated on their own website'' (which had been pointed out multiple times). | |||
* Defamatory personal attacks, eg ]'s NLP talk page comment "I'm sure someone will find a citation for it... Wanna make some money out of NLP?" in response to removal of a highly critical and unsourced personally written opinion. | |||
These and other examples can be found as DIFFs in the Arbitration vote. | |||
;Arbitration vote and DIFF citations at: ]. | |||
;Other action before Arbitration vote: | |||
* Prior to the vote, a formal request was posted to the mediator's talk page for an opinion whether he felt the mediation process was able to resolve the issue. <!-- | |||
* I also posted a note to the mediator on the article talk page, asking him to discuss the state of things. . Its tone is co-operative: ''"I know mediation's best, when it works, and you'll see from Headley's talk page that I tried, and from this talk page that I ignored several insults and POV edits and at least a few personal attacks, to do so... If you have reasons to believe that NPOV will be reached on this article, then can you let me know your basis for that feeling? Because to be honest, I just don't see it, and I've mediated informally a fair few wikipedia disputes... If you can reassure me, I'll listen. The difficulty is that I don't see that kind of progress being at all likely."'' I also left my email address for private discussion.--> | |||
* I and others also warned HeadleyDown and others on multiple occasions that co-editors' patience was running out, and that he needed to respect NPOV policy, as numerous other editors had also stated. I told him explicitly on three occasions that his present type of conduct would be unacceptable on Misplaced Pages, and would ultimately lead to an Arbitration Committee referral to prevent him editing the article. His reply was initially to agree to renewed mediation, but almost immediately to revert to personal remarks and increased POV attack. | |||
;Article vote on ArbCom referral (Nov 3) | |||
Users voting for ArbCom referral (with support for statement that mediation is unlikely to be fruitful): | |||
# ] | |||
# ] | |||
# ] | |||
# ] | |||
# ] (originally posted as ]) | |||
# ] | |||
# ] (also posting as ]) | |||
User indicating strong support but not voting due to short time of editing: | |||
# ]: "If the history of this discussion has demonstrated anything, it's the pointlessness of trying to engage Headleydown and his ridiculous sock-puppets in a constructive dialogue. lets just get to arbitration a.s.a.p .... FT2 has already moved for arbitration not long ago. There were votes although I did not participate due to not really participating in the editing. I've just been reading the endlesly recycling discussion. Nothing will get done this way. HeadleyDown obviously has nothing better to do with his time than pursue his crusade." and | |||
Users voting against arbitration: | |||
# None, other than comments by the users concerned. | |||
Mediator's comments: | |||
<!--# No response to my requests for discussion with the mediator was noticed, either on the mediator's user page or by email. (The mediator was suffering wikistress at the time, according to other posts, *hugs*)--> | |||
# Following the Arbcom vote, the mediator commented that he felt it was neither efficient nor necessary. | |||
# Two days later the mediator added: "Note: to Headley et al, just because I am mediating here does not mean that I have the final say...." | |||
;Example events since arbitration vote: | |||
Despite the semblence of continuing mediation, | |||
* HeadleyDown deleted the Arbcom vote post, in "revenge" for his reply being moved (unchanged) to the marked comments section below. | |||
* HeadleyDown deleted two of ]'s comments from the Talk page. | |||
* 3RR broken on at least two further separate occasions preventing balancing material being added, or slanted writing being corrected. (example: ) | |||
* Multiple personal remarks and attacks | |||
* The article has had further core factual material removed | |||
* Related articles to NLP have also begun being degraded; when it was noted that some specialised material was being moved to side-articles, HeadleyDown's response was: "Hi FT2. Presently the NLP modelling page is full of hype and exagerated claims. I wonder why you didn't notice:) That will change soon enough. Regards ]" | |||
* Talk page posts explaining and discussing edits, with the intent of promoting mutual collaboration, continue to be bluntly ignored. (eg: ) | |||
* The definitions of the subject, cited from its founders' websites and standard texts, was deleted complete with citations, by JPLogan. | |||
* An attempt to balance an apparent misrepresentation of an author was followed by ignoring the request to discuss on talk page, and deletion of the balancing quote and addition of more POV citations. This left the introduction with 3 selectively represented views showing a view that NLP was pseudoscience and a cult, and not one of the many research and other citations showing that the opposite view is strongly supported. | |||
* POV warfare edits continue to the present time (eg in dated Nov 15 (12 days ''after'' the article vote and 2 days ''after'' the formal RFArb posting), ] adds the word "pseudoscience" or "pseudoscientific" 3 times in different places and removes the <nowiki>{{dubious}}</nowiki> tag from a fourth. Following this edit, the article contains 25 mentions of the word "pseudoscience" or "pseudoscientific" alone, excuding section titles.<!-- | |||
* On Nov 17, ] edited the NLP "spirituality" section, rewriting it completely. The section start was somewhat changed: | |||
** '''1st paragraph before:''' "There is disagreement about... Some proponents such as Dilts include... others (such as Tad James) include... These views are disputed by John Grinder who... (citation)." | |||
** '''1st paragraph after:''' "NLP often involves spirituality especially with reference to the logical levels view. Similar to other amoral pseudoscientific psychocults such as Dianetics and EST..." going on to ascribe psychic energy and remote ESP influence. The title for the edit is jaw-droppingly, "rv ''Comaze's'' extreme bias...." | |||
* Finally, also on Nov 17, the article is set as protected by an administrator. | |||
Note: DaveRight: "We can take it for granted you are a pseudoscientific technoshaman and amoral psychocult promoter:)" 09:33, 18 November 2005. | |||
] characterization of myself and other wikipedians as "pseudoscientific technoshaman and amoral psychocult promoter" and "zealots" (twice) | |||
--> | |||
;Other information: | |||
* One editor, ], was explicitly self-identified as a sock puppet on his talk page before becoming involved in this article . He played no part in the vote or its discussion, and only a minor role in the talk page debate, mostly between Oct 27-29. | |||
* I have responded ''(])'' to the statements of the named users below, with citations. In summary, the counter-allegations (like most of the allegations in the article) are spurious and unhampered by inconvenient notions like article history or DIFFs. Examples include ] calling reversion of his highly slanted post back to the mediated version, "Lots of anti NPOV activity" and "Removal of a cited fact", and allegations of "crimes". As ] observes, much of the editing is attempts to hold back the flood of POV warfare, which is then named "promotion" and used to justify personal attacks and remarks. | |||
We have acted with appropriate patience and reserve, but despite much patience, many flames, and much time, there is just no sign whatsoever of any intent to change, nor any significant indication they want to change enough to participate appropriately in Misplaced Pages NLP for the foreseeable future. We therefore ask that ArbCom accept this matter for Arbitration. | |||
] 10:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
<!--====Likely source of visiting users identified==== | |||
Following GregA's statement, I have done some digging. See for a likely source of "meatpuppets" or cronies. Example post: in which a main motivator of these posts describes NLP in terms identical to those we see in this article ''(c.f. AliceDeGrey's rewording of the intro commencing: "Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a method for programming the mind" )''. The emphasis on subjects in this post, such as engrams, L/R brain, Eye movements, Dianetics, were also each major points of dispute on Misplaced Pages, forced into this article with excessive prominence by the named users against consensus of other editors. A message dated encourages skeptic-forum users to visit the Misplaced Pages article. | |||
Strong evidence for a cause/effect connection, rather than effect/cause or coincidence, comes from a post on the skeptics forum dated Sep. 19 17:59 asking for advice how to argue the case NLP is a pseudoscience. The reply suggested "It would be easy to do an analysis of the characteristics listed in this chapter of pseudosciences and relate them to NLP," linking to Lilienfeld as a source. Such a list appeared on the Misplaced Pages article less than 36 hours later, added by ], citing Lilienfeld, on Sept 21 | |||
Timewise too, all the major single-purpose accounts cited were created within the same short time period that Misplaced Pages NLP was being discussed in an identical manner in this forum: HeadleyDown arrived here Aug 5, the Misplaced Pages article was "discovered" on this forum around 5 Sept 2005 , JPLogan's first edit under his own account was on Sept 17, AliceDeGrey Sept 21, DaveRight Oct 12, Bookmain Oct 13 (NB: possibly some posted as IPs before getting an account, or heard about it elsewhere). | |||
--> | |||
===Statement by ]=== | |||
:(Please limit your statement to 500 words) | |||
Hello mediators/arbitrators. This is interesting. I simply want to say that arbitration is an extremely long way off, and our helpful mediator VoiceOfAll seems to concur with that. Mediation seems to be working well. Each time the NLP promoters (I call them that because a lot of them have a vested interest) remove lots of cited fact, the mediator steps in and they calm down. When the more neutral (sorry, less proNLPers) compromise (usually a lot in favour of NLP) the proNLPers calm down some more. I have to admit it does get very tedious to have to restore censored facts all the time, and have to keep answering the same questions all the time (badgering), so things do get a little heated at times. It doesn't help that nearly all non-proNLPers have been labeled sockpuppets at some time. But things are moving forward now the mediator has helped out. Actually there are often major moves in the direction away from arbitration. I personally am fairly ok with the idea of arbitration, but it seems a bit silly to do so when mediation is starting to work so well with a level head and an good and increasing understanding of the subject. Anyway, its all up to you. Regards ] 12:33, 13 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
''(the following diffs were inserted by HeadleyDown into FT2's statement area. Moved by FuelWagon into HeadleyDown's own area. ] 22:57, 18 November 2005 (UTC))'' | |||
<font color="green">Hello Arbitrators. For the sake of helping with examining behaviour, here is some evidence of one so-called unbiased editor from the FT2 camp. Actually he is one of the milder examples compared to others such as FT2 or Comaze:</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
FuelWagon was removing occult/psychic development info that is common knowledge] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
Showing both a complete lack of knowledge, a lack of ability to research, and a desire to delete facts that are even presented within NLP books. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
Again a total disregard for the facts as they are verifiable in links and books. He deleted the fact because he don’t like the sound of New Age (it does not represent the subject as respectable), even though NLP is promoted using primarily the New Age category for promotion, NLP started at Esalen working with people from Esalen institute which was the hub of new age thinking in the 70s. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
Again, removal of cited facts with a disregard for re-phrasing etc. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
FuelWagon’s strong desire to remove the word “pseudoscience” even though it appears in all of the literature of lilienfeld, Eisner, and Salerno. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
removing a cited and verifiable link that is actually a fact. This is verified by psychotherapists such as Lilienfeld and others who are extremely critical of such bodies promoting pseudoscience. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
The attribution to these people only is FuelWagon inferring that only these people have these views. The majority of scientists who know the subject (psychologists eg) have these views. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
This was removed by FuelWagon also. NLP is promoted by NLP promoters under these categories. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC) </font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
Lots of interest in wild and obscure claims (THE study of structure---) that do not clarify anything and that go against what the mediator suggested, plus a lot of hype. And deletion of fact. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
It is categorized with these other groups because of it’s pseudoscientific principles, its lack of support, and its ineffectiveness, together with its association with cults. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
Further removal of cited facts – not alteration or comromise, just blatant censorship. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
the same research-shy ignorance. ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
FuelWagon claimed that the prior was a clear violation of NLP and even a criticism. But it was a clear statement written by the mediator for the most part, plus it is far clearer and more concise than the hype version. FuelWagon also writes that the methods are empirically untested (erroneous and extremely biased in order to dismiss the scientific findings). ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
Again, whittling away the pseudoscience evidence, even though it is stated clearly in the literature ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green">As I said, this is me being mild. There are far worse cases to come. Regards] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green">Here are some of FT2’s crimes: </font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
FT2 Removing a cited fact that was a view of psychotherapists. Removing a concluding statement from the paragraph in favour of a small section of an argument in the middle of the paragraph of an academic paper. Again, selective editing without adding the conclusion of the paragraph, and removing more cited fact. Lots of anti NPOV activity. ] 12:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
FT2 adding as much hype in one go as possible. ] 12:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
again FT2 removing properly cited facts. ] 12:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
FT2’s masterpiece of selective editing. The end of the paragraph actually states – But NLP has failed in controlled experiments and so it is relegated. This is FT2’s biggest trick. He likes to take the middle parts of arguments(the positive bits) and cut off the negative conclusion. No other researcher has ever quoted FT2’s section. All other people who quote Sharpley do so using -NLP failed, or is unsupported etc. From a research perspective it is intellectually fraudulent, clear selective editing, biased in the extreme, and grossly misleading. ] 12:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green"> | |||
Here FT2 writes: “It is worth noting that NLP has been criticised for being both ineffective, and for being ''too'' effective (ie used for mind control and manipulation). This contradiction has not yet been resolved.” This is FT2’s view. It is also the view of some vandals who claimed the same thing prior to FT2’s appearance. I am willing to overlook that, but the fact is; FT2 is willing to write his own opinion on the article even though he claims to have had lots of experience on Misplaced Pages. The view is not the view of any other author. ] 12:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
<font color="green">There are many more similar breaches of cooperation, good research and policy that FT2 continues to commit and of course you can judge them as you wish. Regards ] 12:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
''(The following text was added, again to FT2's statement area, after FT2's response/rebuttal of the above)'' | |||
<font color="green">OK Arbitrators, I wrote the above but I regret it. It is all too shrill. Forget that I said the above. The whole arbitration episode is quite ridiculous. Arbitrators should not have to look around all the content stuff. The fact is, to my knowledge, nobody has done any recent sockpuppetry, there have been no particular offenses (including people calling me a stupid wanker) and the mediator is doing fine (a lot better than I expected). The situation is thus: NLP breeds a lot of followers, and they don't like the fact that science says NLP does not work. It makes them feel really down. They try to remove the fact using every NLP method they can. Misplaced Pages is a lot more reasonable than that. Facts get removed, and the fact-minded place them back in the article. Devotees keep removing them or demanding more facts and so more facts get placed on the article. They continue to remove the facts as they look more and more depressing to devotees, and they call the mediators, or the arbitrators. They hope that by some miracle they can remove the facts by removing the scientists. Do what you will and try to make the devotees a little less censorious. Otherwise, I am fairly content to restore scientific facts as they are presented by scientists. Best regards ] 15:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)</font> | |||
===Statement by JPLogan ] 02:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC)=== | |||
Feel free to check my behaviour. You will find that I am no sockpuppet, although accusations abound. I really feel that the proNLP editors have just shot themselves in the foot again. Certainly I have held back on posting the more damning evidence against NLP, and I have posted plenty of remarks and solutions to solve problems. I suggest that arbitrators keep a due sense of humour. Certainly I find the whole thing ridiculous. The NLP promoters have gone against NPOV so many times. Anyway, do your best with all the checking. Cheers] 02:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by party ] re: NLP=== | |||
I became involved in the NLP article in October. I hadn't heard of "Neuro Linguistic Programming" until I found the article, and I have no personal bias for or against the topic. But it is clear to me that the article is in clear violation of NPOV. There appear to be a number of editors with proclaimed biases against NLP who are editing the article in violation of NPOV. Someone with a longer history of the article can present more evidence, but here are a few diffs that show some blatant biases that directly affect the article. | |||
HeadleyDown modifies the first sentence of the introduction to say ''"(NLP) is a quasi-spiritual behavior-modification technique"'', where the term "quasi-spiritual" is clearly POV, disputed, and biased. (Violation of WP:NPOV) | |||
JPLogan modifies the first sentence of the entire NLP article to say ''"NLP is a pseudoscientific self help development''", where the term "pseudoscientific" is clearly POV, disputed, and biased. (Violation of WP:NPOV) | |||
DaveRight reverts with the edit summary "I think that deserves some punishment." (violation of WP:Point) | |||
DaveRight does a blanket revert of a number of edits, reinserting a bunch of text including ''"Many such courses appear to depend more upon charismatic appeal, wish-fulfillment, quick fixes, and lack of critical faculty, than actual quantifiable results, and so are often considered pure ]."'' as well as ''"Similar to other amoral pseudoscientific psychocults such as ] and EST"'' Both sentences present as fact what is actualy disputed opinions of NLP, namely calling NLP "wish fullfillment", "pseudoscience", "amoral", and "psychocult" (Violation of WP:NPOV) | |||
HeadleyDown removes a critic of NLP's opinion from the criticism section ("Jan Damen describes NLP as ]"), rewords it to passive tense so the source (Jan Damen) is not mentioned and the opinion is presented more as fact, and then reinserts it into the pro-NLP section, making it look as if a pro-NLP source describes NLP as "occult". (Violation of WP:NPOV) | |||
HeadleyDown ''again'' reports in the pro-NLP section of introduction that NLP is used for "occult" purposes, where "occult" is POV, biased, and disputed. | |||
DaveRight reports in the pro-NLP section of introduction that NLP is "fringe", where the term "fringe" is POV, biased, and disputed. | |||
HeadleyDown inserts statement that NLP is used for "fringe therapy", "psychic activities", "covert seduction", and the "occult". | |||
HeadleyDown inserts statement that NLP is "Similar to other amoral pseudoscientific psychocults such as ] and EST" | |||
(update) | |||
Headley ''"So why did you not rewrite it?"'' Here are some diffs that I've dug up showing about a dozen attempts by me to correct NPOV violations committed by another editor by rewriting them to follow policy. I believe most of these attempts by me were reverted by other editors on the page. | |||
edit summary: ''"Jan Damen describes NLP as occult"'' edit summary ''"Reporting the various points of view as being stated by their sources, rather than stateing them as fact."'' Edit summary: ''"I'm rewriting the intro so that all POV statements are reported as someone's point of view, rather than reported as a "fact" followed by (name).)"'' edit summary: ''"Attribute pro-NLP information to advocates and supporters."'' edit summary ''"reporting the pro-NLP point of view from pro-NLP sources. including URL's so folks can verify.)"'' edit summary ''"report the NLP point of view in NLP words,"'' edit summary ''"intro describes the pro-NLP point of view from pro-NLP sources. URL's to verify."'' edit summary ''"attributing to Dilts"'' edit summary ''"another source"'' edit summary ''"source"'' edit summary ''"introduce NLP using the words of NLP supporters. provide URL's so other's can verify accuracy."'' | |||
(update) HeadleyDown provided a number of diffs that he claims are POV violatios on my part. I've included them below with my own interpretation on what each diff shows. | |||
These diffs were posted by ] 11:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC) the format of each diff is | |||
<nowiki></nowiki> explanation by HeadleyDown. | |||
::my explanation in indented format | |||
FuelWagon was removing occult/psychic development info that is common knowledge | |||
::"quick fix or lay therapy, NLP ] seduction, and ] or ] practices." completely unsourced, unverifiable. | |||
Again a total disregard for the facts as they are verifiable in links and books. He deleted the fact because he don’t like the sound of New Age (it does not represent the subject as respectable), even though NLP is promoted using primarily the New Age category for promotion, NLP started at Esalen working with people from Esalen institute which was the hub of new age thinking in the 70s. | |||
::The disputed content is "The foundation for Bandler and Grinder's NLP is based in" followed by "spirituality" or "New Age". The block quote provided in the article immediately below this assertion never uses the phrase "New Age", but mentions that NLP is based on spirituality. I change the content to match what the sourced quote supports. | |||
Again, removal of cited facts with a disregard for re-phrasing etc. | |||
::I've provided a dozen diffs that show a dozen attempts by me to rephrase POV statements into NPOV statements. They have all been reverted. This diff shows a POV statement that I deleted. I am not required to "re-phrase" every NPOV violation made by HeadleyDown et al. I've tried and they revert it. Deleting a POV statement is not violation of policy. And a dozen attempts by me to "re-phrase" their pov statements should be sufficient to show good-faith efforts by me to try and work with these editors. | |||
FuelWagon’s strong desire to remove the word “pseudoscience” even though it appears in all of the literature of lilienfeld, Eisner, and Salerno. | |||
::"pseudoscience" is POV, and in this diff, the word is unsourced, reported as fact, violating NPOV. | |||
removing a cited and verifiable link that is actually a fact. This is verified by psychotherapists such as Lilienfeld and others who are extremely critical of such bodies promoting pseudoscience. | |||
::The content says <nowiki>NLP has also been identified by the ] as quintessential ]ry (Parker 1999). {{dubious}}</nowiki>. It was marked with a "dubious" tag and given how inflamatory a statement it is, I deleted it saying that it required some means to verify it. My edit summary ends with "please provide a URL for verification." | |||
The attribution to these people only is FuelWagon inferring that only these people have these views. The majority of scientists who know the subject (psychologists eg) have these views. | |||
::This is an example of me "re-phrasing" POV statements into NPOV statements. I report the views as being stated by the sources who hold them. HeadleyDown then says that these sources are not the only people who have these views. The only problem is that HeadleyDown never provided any verifiable sources to support his claim, except to say that it is "common knowledge". | |||
This was removed by FuelWagon also. NLP is promoted by NLP promoters under these categories. | |||
::Edit summary says "This is criticism and belongs in the criticism section of intro, with plenty of sources to support use of such biased words". And HeadleyDown found a website selling witchcraft training tapes that said it used NLP techniques. That is like saying since abortion bomber Eric Rudolph is christian, then the introduction to the ] article should say that christianity is promoted by people who bomb abortion clinics. As far as I know, the poeple who developed NLP do not associate themselves or NLP with occult practices. | |||
Lots of interest in wild and obscure claims (THE study of structure---) that do not clarify anything and that go against what the mediator suggested, plus a lot of hype. And deletion of fact. | |||
::Edit summary ''"reporting the pro-NLP point of view from pro-NLP sources. including URL's so folks can verify."''. I report how the NLP Seminars Group International defines NLP and provide a URL. This is not a violation of policy. HeadleyDown wants to define NLP using the words of ''critics'' of NLP only. I inserted other points of view. | |||
It is categorized with these other groups because of it’s pseudoscientific principles, its lack of support, and its ineffectiveness, together with its association with cults. | |||
::Edit summary: ''"Dianetics and Landmark Forum is off topic."''. ANd it's impossible to tell if the Council Against Health Fraud mentions Dianetics and Landmark, or if "Loma" mentions them, or if HeadleyDown inserted them on his own. Unsourced and unclear assertion. | |||
Further removal of cited facts – not alteration or comromise, just blatant censorship. | |||
::POV wording "NLP is an amoral, pseudoscientific psychocult (Smith)" needs to be rewritten to "Smith states that NLP is an amoral, pseudoscientific psychocult". I've done this a dozen times. it keeps getting reverted, so I deleted this one. | |||
FuelWagon claimed that the prior was a clear violation of NLP and even a criticism. But it was a clear statement written by the mediator for the most part, plus it is far clearer and more concise than the hype version. FuelWagon also writes that the methods are empirically untested (erroneous and extremely biased in order to dismiss the scientific findings). | |||
::Edit summary says it all ''"report the NLP point of view in NLP words, not simply criticize NLP."'' HeadleyDown refuses to allow pro-NLP sources to have their point of view reported in the article, and insists on reporting only the views that are critical of NLP. | |||
Again, whittling away the pseudoscience evidence, even though it is stated clearly in the literature | |||
::HeadleyDown needs to rewrite "NLP is pseudoscience (Smith)" to "Smith states that NLP is pseudoscience". I've done it a dozen times and got reverted. | |||
===Allow me to chip in ] 03:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC) === | |||
Hello, I am not DRight:) I am Dave. OK. No idea who DRight is, but he has a cool name:) OK. For what its worth, you may want to look at the Scientology and Dianetics article page. Similar things seem to have gone on there. NLP is one of those pseudoscience subjects that recruits lots of believers who love to hear about "human potential, metaprograms, the difference that makes the difference, the science and technology of excellence" and so on. In fact, they have had all those things on the article at some point. It is interesting though, how often they advocate and even physically remove cited scientific fact. FT2 for example, keeps wanting to remove fact. He also posts his own opinion within the article even when there is absolutely no author who holds the same opinion. He posts strategically altered paragraphs (with the negative ending removed) in order to promote NLP. The fact is, NLP is a pseudoscience, according to scientists, psychologists, linguists, and anthropologists. In fact it is in the same category as Dianetics and EST and sometimes phrenology. The NLP promotional team are dead set on removing facts as they have physically done for months, and they have even tried to recruit vandals from newsgroups. Things do get a bit lively on the discussion page, though the only direct insults have been to poor old Headley. NLP promoter's call him things such as "dullard" and "wanker". No such activity has been seen from neutral editors towards proNLPers, dispite the ridiculous level of fact deletion. There is a general slur campaign against anyone who does not promote NLP. To my knowledge, no negative comment or insults or vandalism has been conducted from neutral editors to the NLPpromoter's pages. Anyway, go ahead and check my ip and tell the NLPpromoters to stop removing scientific facts. ATB Dave ] 03:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by party Voice of All=== | |||
While I don't believe that arbitration is the best option for now, I would say that the placement of ((test3)) and ((test4)) signs, accuations of extreme POV, and use of alternate names is likely occuring on both sides here. An IP check on all of the users would be well appretiated, as duplicates can be banned, leaving only the true users. This will removed inflated edit wars and vote tallies/consensus. | |||
I would note however, that I had already recommended that people edit one section at a time. The blanket reverts were mainly of edits to multiple sections. One the other hand, too much anti-NLP criticism has been going into the article recently, under the idea that ''it is a fact'' or ''he did actually say this''; article's can not have every single fact about the topic, they must be streamlined, and some sort of balance between truth and representation of all POVs must be reached.] <sup><small>]|]|]</small></sup> 00:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by party AliceDeGrey=== | |||
My turn! Well, I wish to respond to FT2's point first. Misplaced Pages is about cooperation. If you cannot cooperate with factual information then you are going to be disruptive. The proNLPers are disruptive. The more neutral editors here cooperate extremely well, and share information through discussion sections and email. We do not delete scientific facts or advocate for its deletion as is happening on the discussion page now. In response to FuelWagon, all of the points he makes involve cited facts (views turned into facts according to NPOV policy). FuelWagon is still advocating for them to be deleted. I personally have spent time researching in my institution with help from others concerning explaining NLP through science. I see the NLP promoters wishing to delete that hard work. I can only see this demand for arbitration as fanatical desperation. I will continue to cooperate with people willing to reduce confusing hype and clearly present the facts. ] 08:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
=== Statement: ] 08:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)=== | |||
Hi. I have been working in quite close co-operation with other editors such as Alice and others. We have access to a lot of good info on this subject and there has already been a lot deleted by the NLPpromoters. There is also a good deal of cooperation from other members, such as Flavius Vanillus, and HansAntel (who actually sent us some good foreign language information also). It is blatantly clear that FT2 and FuelWagon, GregA, Comaze and others, have a very strong agenda to promote NLP. If you spend all the time reading "NLP is the solution to all problems" is does not help. But they seem to be unable to even face the facts that NLP is considered pseudoscince and is completely scientifically unsupported. The pressure directed by them in order to bannish such scientific facts is enormous. Even yesterday, Comaze was doing wholesale deletion of facts from the article, even tho mediation had rested with the facts being present in the body and opening. Just take try to take their fervent censorship with a sense of humour. Its not easy. ] 08:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by ]=== | |||
Hello. I'm not sure if once the arbitration is "accepted" you need to hear from us? I assume you'll let us know what you need. | |||
There has been much argument on the NLP pages and removal and reversion. The "NLP is pseudoscience" group consistently call themselves neutral and rarely choose to discuss an issue - most questions become personal responses or "you just have to accept the facts", rather than specific responses. . If we repeat the question, the response is threats to "provide more damning evidence" (which I've asked them to give us...as we should have all evidence! They don't follow through). For example, responses to a change include ''"..will lead to more damning detail being presented in order to show exactly how warped and desperate your biased edits are. People here are actually trying to be kind. I have some extremely crushing reviews..."'' (line 656 ), or ''"Well I will present his damning words on the article. I think that is what you are asking for."'' . | |||
In fact all 4 diffs above also show a similarity in threat style of those 4 different usernames/possible sock puppets. I believe from the style of responses that there are several puppets, though there could certainly be 2 or 3 users with several more sock puppets, sharing similar negative NLP opinions and styles brought in from the yahoo skeptics newsgroup . I also see that whether they are puppets may not matter - that ] says ''"for the purpose of dispute resolution, when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sockpuppets or several users with similar editing habits they may be treated as one user with sockpuppets."''. | |||
Please note that I am the one accused above of trying to "recruit" on a newsgroup. See for details including my response. If I have broken some rule my apologies. | |||
In general I have no problem with what Headley et al says he'll do - they often seem very reasonable. His actions are quite different and he can not be judged on his words, only his follow through (Isometimes think he enjoys saying the right thing while doing something different, it certainly provokes a certain kind of response!). Thanks for taking this on, I really hope we can get to representing NLP fairly, warts and all, as soon as possible. ] 14:17, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by HansAntel=== | |||
Hello, I am not sockpuppeting. I give science evidence and the antimediater group (FT2 and all the people he votes and deletes with) will just argue to delete my facts. Why? Because the facts are not promotion of NLP. They are science facts and views to facts that can be cited. The antimediation group want to write lots of complaint. Ignore it. They write nothing but complaint from start to now - I look at the archived information. Give research and evidence, they will delete or change it in total meaning. Check me out. I am moving around a lot but I use the same workstation most postings. Arbitrators please take antimediators (FT2 group) like unserious pestilence. They irritate but you can brush them off your neck. Sincerely Hans ] 02:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
=== FT2 responses to user statements=== | |||
# ]'s statement that an initial IP check on all editors concerned would be helpful - agreed. The principle editors of the article and talk page recently are as follows: the eight editors named, the 7 voters named, Voice of All, Flavius vanillus, 203.100.233.178, 203.186.238.*, 211.30.47-48.*, 80.44.*, 81.151.*. However this does not change my feeling that mediation is likely proven fruitless, because the nature of the problem is ''not'' textual compromise within the article, but non-wikipedian users and sock-puppets engaging in vandalism, fraudulent credentials cited to bolster extreme view, fraudulent representation of professional bodies despite multiple correction, deterrance of editors, constant personal attacks, remarks and defamation, heavy duty slanting, and utter lack of civility or respect for editors or information.<br> <br> | |||
# I do not agree with ] that "he blanket reverts were of edits to multiple sections". For most, this seems irrelevant. Quick examples (a few out of many): HeadleyDown replaces one paragraph in intro that presents 2 sides of a view, with 2 extreme views on same side (interesting observation: ''HeadleyDown'' uses nonsense word "psychopablum" but ''JPLogan'' creates an article defining that word and referencing NLP); JPLogan deletes the entire section of core definitions within the field by its founders complete with full citations on the mind-boggling basis that they are "uncited" and that citing them is "POV"; HeadleyDown removes a key qualifier regarding the British Psychological Society leaving impression that Parkers view represents them accurately; HeadleyDown rewords an already unbalanced paragraph which had been compromised, with even more generalized wording that removes the "X said Y" qualifier; and again more selective POV insertion by DaveRight; Bookmain removes citation from British Dyslexia Association paragraph which uses NLP, replacing it by a subtlely misrepresented citation from Children In Therapy to state "NLP is quackery" (in fact it is ''attachment therapy'' and not NLP which is the target of that page, NLP is a technique claimed by attachment therapy protagonists to support it); Bookmain deletes a paragraph that states NLP rests on an observational rather than theoretical basis; ... which is re-deleted by AliceDeGrey when corrected; Bookmain edits the one paragraph on NLP in policing, 1/ replacing a factual "wide range" with "some", 2/ deletes the FBI's actual comment in support of NLP's efficacy, 3/ deletes a police statement that it is field proven, 4/ adds a spurious "claims to be", and 5/ adds a selective quotation after all this that NLP "has been tested by criminologists and has been found not to work in crime situations". ''''<br> <br> | |||
# ''Re JPLogan's assertion that he is not a sock-puppet'': This case is about sock-puppets ''or cronies''. ] refers to this when it discusses the creation of:<br>''"new accounts specifically to influence a particular vote or discussion. This is especially common in deletion discussions. These newly created accounts... may be friends of a Wikipedian, or may be related in some way to the subject of an article under discussion. These accounts are not actually sockpuppets, but they are... treated similarly. Neither a sockpuppet nor a brand-new, single-purpose account holder is a member of the Misplaced Pages community... The Arbitration Committee has ruled that, for the purpose of dispute resolution, when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sockpuppets or several users with similar editing habits they may be treated as one user with sockpuppets."''<br> <br> | |||
# ''Response to Bookmain'': Bookmain says, "It is blatantly clear that FT2 and... others have a very strong agenda to promote NLP... But they seem to be unable to even face the facts that NLP is considered pseudoscience and is completely scientifically unsupported." ''(Note the straw man)''. <br> <br>Untrue and not borne out by facts. For example, when I created the article "]" (proper discussion was too long for the main article), I did this neutrally on the classic Misplaced Pages basis: description, specific principles, sources, criticisms and rebuttals. It does not advocate a side. It ''describes and characterizes'', and includes both viewpoints fully representing each. Please see that article where I wrote specifically under criticisms:<ul><li>"The subject is open ended, that is, it does not specify how the information it obtains should be used, or what can be done with it. So NLP becomes very prone to quackery, incorporation of pseudoscience, and manipulative uses."</li><li>And again I wrote: "Stronger criticism is usually levelled at NLP as a whole, for the pseudoscientific hype, exaggerated claims and commercialization often associated with it by its practitioners, and this is discussed under the main NLP article."</li></ul>No other editor had worked on it and yet the mediator, reviewing it a week after drafting, made only one tiny phraseology improvement to the article upon review, leaving the entirety of the article otherwise unchanged .<br><br>As well as straw men, Bookmain has a prior history on the article of inventing other fraudulent "facts" and misrepresentative assertations out of the blue to bolster his argument. Example: he characterizes a minor hypnotist, Dylan Morgan, as "a world renowned clinical hypnotherapist" and of a critical opinion piece by the man as "research" and "the final word": ''"Dr Morgan's scientific followup and final word assessment is entirely relevant. It is also the view of a world renowned clinical hypnotherapist."'' (for the basis of my characterization of Morgan as minor, and the representation as fraudulent, see ])<br> <br> | |||
# ''Re AliceDeGrey'': Misplaced Pages is about neutral, rounded and balanced encyclopaedic summaries of subjects. Co-operation is a ''means'', not an ''end''. It ceases to be a means to Misplaced Pages's goals, when it is used to enforce an unbalanced and slanted view of one approach to a subject. ] has been summarized for editors by FuelWagon, and also by myself more than once. If Alice is stating that I habitually delete "scientific fact" (or do so without discussing or indicating that a citation exists if needed) she needs to provide some examples. It's very noticeable that the presented case and rebuttals contain numerous visible citations. By contrast as a double standard, a list of 84 citations with links (]), of NLP used by credible organizations, has been provided, but AliceDeGrey has not yet moved even a finger to discuss or acknowledge it, nor to adjust the article to represent it fairly.<br> <br>AliceDeGrey is somewhat disingenuous when she states ''"We do not delete scientific facts or advocate for its deletion"'' (implicit acknowledgement of a group of editors). See her own edits, , removing details of how NLP is used by cults making it seem NLP ''is'' a cult, removal of critical 1st half of quote, preface the intro definition with the sentence "Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a method proposed for programming the mind", adds "and remote ESP influence" to a list of NLP uses, adds "and dubious (Morgan 1993)" knowing that Morgan was an opinion writer yet referencing him as if he were a scientist , rvt/reinstates this adding untruthfully that this opinion of Morgan's is "A more recent scientific assessment" , then when corrected rvt/reinstates ''again'' this time adding a further misleading characterization as a "published follow up scientific assessment (Morgan 1993)" , removes a statement by one of America's foremost professors of linguistics that two of NLPs disputed presuppostions are in fact "major findings of cognitive science" , removes the observation on the contradictory nature of criticisms leveled at NLP , reinstates the "NLP is a method of programming the mind" deleted earlier , '''removes''' the skeptics dictionary reference deliberately leaving Carroll (2003) looking like a research academic , ..... <br> <br> | |||
# ''Re DaveRight'': '''''' I find it strange there are both a "D.Right" and a "DaveRight". But we'll see what we see. As far as Dave's accusations go, they are inaccurate. He has posted the identical allegation, equally untrue, on the Talk page of the article, and my reply and citations stand good here too: .<br> <br>I also cite other evidence of neutrality including my ''exclusion'' of a "support" vote under wikipedia policy , my talk page posts and the cited section removed as discussed and (see "response to Bookmain") the neutral inclusion of the various strong criticisms into the initial ] article when I wrote it. On numerous occasions I explain edits on the talk page for discussion, and added balancing ''negative'' criticisms on NLP on several occasions where they seemed justified. For example I try to represent both sides and ask others to edit if incorrect, I ask Headley to discuss so the edit can be agreed (ignored). On many other occasions and and and and and for examples of article edits that were explained, or citations offered, on the talk page. Edits were explained on the talk page: "Any criticisms please bring here... as I am unaware of anything controversial or disputed written in that section" and and a request to name "...one non-trivial example of a statement I added, that you feel is not supported factually and inaccurate." and "if you wish to revert please first mention here exactly which statements you feel are inaccurate. Rather than mass-reverting the entire definition. This is in compliance with wiki standards that say a dispute over wording should be hammered out on the talk page rather than repeatedly reverted" <br> <br>By way of contrast, the tone of DaveRight's contributions is somewhat... unwikipedian: ''Can anyone think of a good new religious name for NLP? How about The Church of New Rolling Wizdicks?DaveRight 06:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)"'' <br> <br> | |||
# ''Re HansAntel:'' I am prepared to believe Hans is not a literal sock puppet, nor is he a disruptive editor as such. Hence why I have listed him separately from the other 5 named users. But that's all. He edits with a common agenda to the other named users, he arrived here roughly with the other named users, he almost certainly found this site in connection with the current POV-warfare style editing on NLP (ie advocacy) rather than from a general wish to neutrally write for an encyclopedia. As an editor, he uses at times perjorative wording assumptions and straw men similarly to the other named users, Hans also makes vague accusations and personal remarks as they do, and falls under ] as a "single use account" and likely meatpuppet. WP policy states such users may be considered sockpuppets for this purpose. By way of example, his statement above contains no actual substantive matters, just a set of poorly defined personal remarks, an unsubstantiated and grossly inaccurate statement that I "want to write lots of complaint... nothing but complaint from start to now" and that I delete facts (see previous for rebuttals), and some statements of his personal view. I would tend to agree if he states that he has not vandalized the article in any way, or has a potential to contribute to the article: his non-neutrality, purpose on wikipedia, single use account, and common agenda with a group of aggressive POV warriors, is the concern for me.<br> <br> | |||
# ''Re HeadleyDown additions:'' HeadleyDown later adds a section, most of which concerns other editors. But it references "the FT2 camp" which I object to, and at the end it states, "Here are some of FT2’s crimes", listing 5 diffs. Most of these are misrepresented: | |||
## '''Allegation:''' There is an "FT2 camp". <br>'''Rebuttal:''' I was already a previous editor on this subject. Despite this, my contributions show none whatsoever on NLP or its talk page or related articles between 5 Aug (when HeadleyDown arrived) and 27 Oct (when it became obvious there was a sockpuppet or crony issue severely slanting the article), whilst I tried to let existing editors reach agreement. By 27 Oct it had already undergone RfC and RfM, all the other major editors were already engaged, and my focus was to try and clarify the NPOV issues, and rework visibly problematic edits, as someone unaligned. It is false to name me as having a "camp" or similar. I have tried to work with ''both'' sides. | |||
## '''Allegation:''' Removing cited facts and selective editing. "Lots of anti NPOV activity." <br>'''Rebuttal:''' This was in fact a rvt of Headley's edits, back to the ''mediated'' version. Headley had edited the mediated version to include multiple additional criticisms (again), adding the words: "significant criticism" (twice), "promotion" (twice), "dubious" (once), "pseduoscientific" (once) on top of many existing references of these words, plus deletion of a research citation stating that research was limited and had probably not yet been undertaken properly. My edit narrative read: ''"rvt Headley to VoiceOfAll: WP is about a <u>balanced neutral encyclopaedic view</u> - not every "fact" has a place, especially not when it's merely further unbalancing an already unbalanced article"''. | |||
## '''Allegation:''' removing properly cited facts. <br>'''Rebuttal:''' This is half of a 2-edit diff. The full diff is . It's the same identical reversion as the above, reverted again because Headley kept trying to push the above noted POV into the article without discussion. It differs slightly since it incorporated reinstatement of mediator edits that HeadleyDown had deleted from the article too. My edit narrative for these two edits read: ''", rvt to 3.09 version, including VoiceofAll's edit on "New Age" "'' | |||
## '''Allegation:''' Adding as much hype in one go as possible. <br>'''Rebuttal:''' Following the one sided nature of the article, I listed for discussion some 84 citations from credible organisations that state NLP is used or found to be of value to them, at ]. Every last item on that list was sourced, and every last one had a web link provided for verification. All but a handful were current (2004-2005). This was appropriate in view of headley and others' repeated comments that they ''did not know'' of any people taking, or using, NLP seriously. Neither Headley nor his colleagues have ever denied this list is accurate. Headley & Co. having failed to represent NLP's usage properly, I added a summary of this material myself, complete with citations for every entry, listing the facts and letting them speak for themselves. I find it hard to see how this characterizes as "hype". My edit narrative read: ''"Just a few... I think its time some balance was brought to this article, the evidence has been on the other page for some time now as to applications."'' | |||
## '''Allegation:''' FT2’s "masterpiece of selective editing... FT2's biggest trick". Alleges that the argument is selectively cited, taking the middle and ignoring the negative conclusion.. States that "The end of the paragraph actually states – But NLP has failed in controlled experiments and so it is relegated". Characterizes the edit as "intellectually fraudulent, clear selective editing, biased in the extreme, and grossly misleading" from a research perspective.<br>'''Rebuttal:''' This was part of a HeadleyDown breach of 3RR reversion, and arose after I had reverted it twice already. Edit narratives: <ul><li> ''"Rvt - misrepresentative of research sources, see talk page *again* headley. When I say "if you have an issue discuss 1st", thats because it's WP policy Headley"''</li><li> ''"See talk page, selective citation is <u>not</u> okay see WP:NPOV"''</li><li> ''"Headley..... that's still weasel ("other reasons") and pov suppression. If you don't know the scientific research or usage, then ask on the talk page as suggested, rather than just reverting."''</li></ul>The edit itself can be seen in the DIFF, and its neutrality judged. Addressing Headley's points:<ul><li>Re the allegation of selectivity, I note that if a researcher states in one and the same paper, that:<br>''"Research data do not support the rather extreme claims that the proponents of NLP have made"''<br>and ALSO states:<br>''"This does not necessarily reduce NLP to worthlessness... Rather, it puts NLP in the same category as psychoanalysis, that is, with principles not easily demonstrated in laboratory settings but nevertheless, strongly supported by clinicians in the field"'',<br>then I think to choose just the negative one, when one is already selectively inserting only the more negative citations already, is highly inappropriate. So I added the balancing quote in order that the author would not be misrepresented. It is clear that he wrote both sentences, and it is hard to see his very specific wording not being intended as it reads. </li><li>Regarding the end of the sentence, in fact Headley seems to be deliberately misquoting that paragraph here. It does NOT say "But NLP has failed in controlled experiments and so it is relegated". DaveRight actually posted the end of that sentence on the NLP pages for us, and says that it reads ''very'' differently: "'''But, if''' it has been tested and fails then it is relegated."</li><li>Headley represented the BPS (again) as viewing NLP as "Charlatanery". My response to this has been given many times, and actual BPS citations where they ''support and recommend'' NLP, or at the least do not treat it at all like "quackery", are cited and linked at ]. HeadleyDown has never acknowledged these. Rather than delete a viewpoint, I added a note in parentheses, that this view was no longer supported by the BPS.</li></ul>Apparently the standard for citation inclusion varies tremendously depending whether it is a view that represents NLP in the extremely critical light or not. That might be Headley's view. But it is not appropriate behavior on Misplaced Pages. | |||
## '''Allegation:''' I stated that NLP is criticised both for being ineffectual and being too effective. "This contradiction has not yet been resolved". HeadleyDown states first that this is a personal view, then that it is a view he has heard from others who he calls "vandals" (but never names), finally stating that it "is not the view of any other author" but mere personal opinion. <br>'''Rebuttal:''' Apart from the contradictions in his own words, it is clear that 1/ NLP has been criticized for being ineffective, Headley & Co. have dug up multiple citations to this effect. 2/ NLP has been criticized for being effective in and used as part of mind control and cults etc. Again, both Headley & Co. and I have dug up multiple citations to this effect as well. 3/ These contradict, 4/ The contradiction is noteworthy since it shines a light on NLP and NLP research, and 5/ The contradiction has not yet been resolved. I am unaware of a reason why this would be a remarkable edit or considered unsourced. The edit contains a variety of other edits too. The edit narrative states ''"Criticism - cleanup - see talk page"''. The talk page post I wrote explaining this edit is and worth reading for its neutrality. | |||
## ] signoff: "There are many more similar breaches of cooperation, good research and policy that FT2 continues to commit" (ominous words, but none are cited). | |||
## HeadleyDown, rebutted, attempts to back-pedal / soft-pedal his accusations and actions, adding that "The whole arbitration episode is quite ridiculous." | |||
===Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (3/0/0/0)=== | |||
* Accept cautiously, to judge behavior and not content ] 23:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept. ] ] 13:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept. ] (]) 14:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
== ] et al. == | |||
Pages: ], ], ], etc. | |||
Involved parties | |||
Complainants: | |||
*], | |||
*], | |||
*], | |||
*], | |||
*], | |||
*], | |||
*], | |||
*], | |||
*] | |||
Against: | |||
*], | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] banned sockpuppet of Johnski (block log:)(Note:This user is now ]}, | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski (see ) | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] suspectedd sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski, | |||
*] suspected sockpuppet of Johnski. | |||
Brief summary: On going vandalism with pages associated with Dominion of Melchizedek by user Johnski and his sockpuppets. This has been going on for over four months. | |||
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request: | |||
Plantiffs: ] , ] , ] , ], ] , ] , ], ] | |||
Defendants:] , ] , ] (Note: This user has been blocked as a sock puppet), ] , ] . | |||
Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried: | |||
On November 3rd, I requested this case be mediated and posted in on the appropriate page. The request for mediation was declined by ] and he stated that he didn’t feel mediation was likely to be useful. | |||
I was disappointed and asked Sam Korn what other method he thought would be useful. He stated RFC would be a better option. The problem with this is however, is we have tried to RFC this article in the past. Also, because one user is responsible for reverting the articles in question multiple times with multiple user names, the process would only be manipulated and abused by this person by voting as many times as he saw fit to. | |||
==== Statement by ] (on behalf of all complainants) ==== | |||
There is an ongoing revert war with Johnski, who has reverted the article ], 60+ times in the last two months. Johnski has been reverting these pages without consensus for over four months. | |||
Johnski is strongly believed to be an active member of Dominion of Melchizedek, as he possesses an intimate familiarity with details of court cases and other historical matters pertaining to it that few, if any, outsiders would be privy to. As a primary source and should not be contributing to any articles on this subject, in accordance with Misplaced Pages general editing principles. | |||
He has violated the 3RR rule numerous times. To justify his reverts, he claims that his version has consensus, and that the prior version is biased. He has also used numerous sock puppets to revert the above page, and to introduce Melchizedek-related promotional content into many other articles as well, including: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ] and ]. | |||
When challenged by other editors Johnski selectively quotes media reports out of context in order to put a positive spin on consistently extremely negative reportage about Melchizedek. He consistently seeks to insert these out-of-context quotations into the above articles to provide what he alleges is "balanced" reportage, and has attempted to delete quotations which show Melchizedek in a negative light. | |||
Johnski does not follow the rules of Misplaced Pages and frankly changes them in order to push his own agenda. Additionally, his presumed association with a group known for defrauding people in many parts of the world of millions of dollars is a negative reflection on Misplaced Pages, and should be curtailed. | |||
The specific allegations being made are as follows: | |||
Allegation #1: Adding statements that are POV without providing proof in terms of his claims and deleting claims he disagrees with and making dishonest statements. In terms of area (size of the country), Johnski makes the assertion that DOM claims the entire earth, while not providing evidence of this claim. When he edits the page, he is careful to remove any criticisms of DOM and/or change statements to minimize frauds that have been committed by the people involved. | |||
Allegation #2: Reverting Dominion of Melchizedek, Bokak Atoll and other articles without consensus. | |||
Allegation #3: Inability to show good faith and follow the rules of Misplaced Pages. Posts information on talk page, then proceeds to revert the page and leaves the following message, “refer to talk page and before reverting see if you can't find something you can keep in your next revision.” | |||
Johnski has made many statements about Misplaced Pages rules which are false and misleading. He also has made assertions that seven to ten people support his version of the article. | |||
Allegation #4: Misquoting sources to push POV edits. Misquoting Washington Post Article, Johnski claimed it said “dubious” when the article claimed DOM was in fact a “ruse.” Misquoting the United States U.S. Comptroller of the Currency claiming that because a document refers to Melchizedek as a "non-recognized sovereignty" and make it appear that the US is giving defacto recongniztion, when that is clearly not the case. | |||
Allegation #5: Harassment-Mainly creating an article on Misplaced Pages called ] to criticize those he disagrees with. The article itself was tagged Speedy Deletion, then recreated and deleted and protected so that he could not recreate it. ] in the edit summary that the page was stated, “Recreated after speedy deletion, created by a disgruntled user.” ] 22:49, November 13, 2005 | |||
:I would like to restate again, my allegation in terms of sockpuppets being used. So far, one user name has been blocked. I am working to try to find out any details why, but I would appreciate it if the arbitration committee would look into this, instead of mearly discarding the possiblity of this being true. | |||
:For the record, I am not the "ringleader" of this group, which implies I'm putting pressure on other people to come forward. There are many other people that have a problem with the editing done by Johnski other then myself. Johnski would like you to believe that it is purely a matter between him and I, but this isn't true. ] 04:27, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
==== Statement by ] ==== | |||
The issues I see here is that | |||
* A single editor is trying to impose his changes on articles against the wishes against multiple other editors. | |||
* This editor is using sockpuppets as part of his effort to make these changes | |||
As per point one, he keeps trying to add ] content to a number of articles about geographic locations whose only relation to ] is the fact that DOM has claimed that they own the land in question. Here are some recent edits in just one article: . | |||
The user is also being dishonest; he is using multiple accounts. You can see above the three different accounts making the exact same ]- related changes: ], ], and ]. You can see that these accounts have, by and large, have only made a relatively small number of edits, almost all DOM related: . In particular, in all cases, the ''first'' edit for these accounts was DOM-related. This is a clear case of using sockpuppet accounts. | |||
When a single editor goes against the wishes of multiple other editors, and uses sockpuppets towards this end, disclipinary action becomes necessary. ] 20:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
==== Statement by ] ==== | |||
I believe that ] is using multiple accounts to give the appearance that more than one editor supports his actions in adding heavily pro-"Melchizedek" spin to as many artticles as he can possibly find in Misplaced Pages that have the slightest tangential relationship to what is in reality a ] entity that has been widely condemned for being used as a vehicle for the conduct of criminal activities throughout the world. | |||
It is telling that ], ], ] and the various other anonymous IPs who have edited in favour of "Melchizededk" focus wholly and solely on the exact same group of articles, from their first edit, and appear to edit in sustained bursts of activity. None of these editors have made any other substantive contribution to Misplaced Pages beyond their edits to "Melchizedek"-related articles. | |||
It is my personal belief that ] is probably the current "president" of Melchizedek, as he has a familiarity with this subject, and with the minutiae of court cases and other legal proceedings and historic events that no outsider would (a) be aware of, and (b) be so obsessively interested in. While his involvement in Melchizedek does not preclude him from contributing to this article, he has consistently failed to conform with the principles of evidence, NPOV and good faith - particularly in repeatedly trying to "spin" negative statements into positive ones by selectively misquoting media reports critical of "Melchizedek". | |||
In doing so he has, in my opinion, forfeited the right to further participation in the Misplaced Pages community. --] 01:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I believe that ] may be using multiple accounts as it has been pointed out that he has responded to messages to Centauri in the first person. Also, Shocktm may be another of his sock-puppets to give the appearance that more than one editor supports his actions in twisting facts about the Melchizedek story. He is known to be a part of a different micronation that hasn't achieved the same level of recognition as DOM, so he may be jealous of DOM since it was able to gain recognition while having tons of negative press against it. One most recent example is his refusal to stop mis-characterizing a Washington Post article changing the meaning from "you get the feeling" to "probably". Even when others in his group finally saw the need for correcting the reference, he refuses on the basis that it is easier reading. Who cares about misrepresenting the WP article if it is easier reading? seems his attitude. | |||
:I can't speak for others, but the article cries out for attention, and others since the arbitration was brought have noticed the same. | |||
:Gene's belief is not true, I am not the "president" of Melchizedek, as my only familiarity with this subject, and with court cases and other legal proceedings and historic events are all published, and it is Gene that isn't conforming to the principles of evidence, NPOV and good faith - particularly in repeatedly trying to "spin" negative statements into more negative ones by selectively misquoting media reports critical of "Melchizedek", and by removing valid quotes from U.S. government web sites. You would think that my bringing stuff to their attention previously unknown to them would get their respect. But knowing more than they know about the subject makes them better qualified to keep and guard the article only as they see fit. | |||
:While I don't think Gene has forfeited his right to participation in the Misplaced Pages community, he needs someone with authority here to help him understand that Wikipedian articles should quote sources correctly, and that articles need to be fair and balanced. Perhaps Gene is the real ringleader here, not Davidpdx, and Davidpx has only been an unwitting tool of Gene. Sincerely, ] 07:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::I would like to point out my comments were removed by one of the arbitration committee and I was told not to comment on others statements. I would hope this is treated the same. (yes and remove this comment too that's ok with me). ] 14:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::I don't mind if ]'s rant above is retained or removed. Apart from its general entertainment value it's also a pretty good illustration of precisely why he's about to become the subject of arbitartion. --] 05:04, 20 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::So now, I'm the "unwitting tool" and Gene is the ringleader? Make up your mind why don't you? It's funny, because you have no idea what your talking about. As Gene so elequently put it, you are clueless and that is exactly why your being taken to arbitration. ] 15:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
==== Statement by ] ==== | |||
Samboy effectively speaks for me; his summary of this situation is the best, I think. | |||
] states "Neither a sockpuppet nor a brand-new, single-purpose account holder is a member of the Misplaced Pages community." Sockpuppetry per se is not at all a big deal to me, and in fact in the past I've been one to push on other disputes for less attention to be given to that in favor of other charges. In this case, though, whether we are dealing with sockpuppets or meatpuppets, it's clear we are looking at "single-purpose account"s. This has made it impossible to try to push for real consensus to be built on what these articles should or should not say, since all these new single-purpose accounts try to involve themselves in the consensus. | |||
] (] • ]) 18:43, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
==== Statement by ] ==== | |||
My main problem with Jonski et al is the way he uses references. Take the Washington Post article. He tried to claim to me that the Washington Post was saying that it was DOMs declaration of war against France. However the tittle of the article was "The Ruse that Roared." ie a clear reference to the miniscule state of the film not to the act of declaring war. After a few times of checking someones refs and finding they are putting a spin which contradicts the original you lose confidence with any edit he makes.] 15:58, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
==== Statement by ] ==== | |||
Hello Kelly Martin, if you could help edit this article taking into consideration mine and others efforts to reduce the bias, and bring more balance, that could end the edit war. | |||
I'll borrow from what I read on another subject as it says it better than I could write myself: | |||
Davidpdx, their ringleader, has not made any contribution to any topic regarding this subject, other than ]. As soon as Samboy challenged him for that, he removed the content that Isotope23, KAJ and himself worked hard to reach consensus on. In some instances they have continued their POV approach on DOM to the detriment of other pages too. In essense, they have acted as POV warriors with a single viewpoint who have proven unable or uninterested in the wiki approach or policies, and have little interest in anything beyond their own view. (eg, only show negative aspects of ], and ignore anything else the press or governemnt web sites have put forth. Fundamentally they do not seem to show the slightest ability or care for collaborating in a wiki manner. Indeed their idea of collaboration is insults and ignoring or dismissal of issues, often with personal attacks and remarks. | |||
Here are some problems encountered: | |||
* factual suppression | |||
* Repeated deletion of sourced material or cited fact about the subject by reputable authors, government web sites, often followed by addition of more POV material. | |||
* Personal attacks | |||
* Ignoring of requests to discuss edits | |||
* Changing the words "you get the feeling" to "probably" when quoting the Washington Post, as one example. | |||
When Davidpdx was first given the idea for mediation he took it as a threat, and was told that arbitration would be necessary if he didn't accept mediation. Finally he grabbed the ball and ran with it. | |||
I've only used one of the IP addresses Davidpdx listed above, and I have no sockpuppets. I've offered to disclose my IP address, if he first agrees to disclose his after I disclose mine, but he will not comply. Made the same offer to a few others listed above. None have accepted. | |||
I am not a Melchizedekian nor am I a member of the Pedley family. I am a Christian Scientist. I know that Jdavidb is at odds with my faith. The only thing I've been asking for is that the article become fair, balanced and factual. I've backed up every fact, and only tried to quote exactly from articles, government web sites, but that is not permitted by Davidpdx. | |||
I created the article Wikilante as a sincere attempt to describe the vigilante behavior of Davidpdx, and told him that I'm sorry if he thought I was taunting him, and paid him a compliment for his efforts since he apparently is sincere as are vigilantes. I didn't try to create that article again after I realized that an administrator had deleted it a second time, and didn't know it was blocked. | |||
Davidpdx claims that I didn't show anywhere that DOM claims earth, which shows he doesn't read my talk as I had just posted a link to the CBS article that stated that Melchizedek unofficially claims the entire earth, and claims Jerusalem as its homeland. Please take a look and see for yourself. | |||
I tried hard to work for compromise with Davidpdx but it turned out he was only playing games with me, and had no such intention, which is evidenced from his lack of making any compromise on the main DOM article, but only finding reason not to compromise, having nothing to do with the facts, but only having to do with issues of my not following his idea of the rules, my being stupid, and being on LSD. I've never used LSD and although a slow learner, I doubt that I am stupid. And I have tried my best to follow the wiki rules as I slowly learn those rules. | |||
I'm happy to get into all of the details of the efforts for a better article, but you can easily figure it out by looking at my last version compared to the one before it, and taking a look at the last talk page on DOM as of this date. Sincerely, ] 20:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
''(Moved from below section --]</nowiki>]] 21:02, 13 November 2005 (UTC))'' | |||
==== Statement by ] ==== | |||
I am NOT anybody's sock, meat puppet, am NOT part of any organizational push. Only have seen needfor creating a better article. I changed my name three times, first it was Samspade, then SamuelSpade and now it should stay Spadesam. ] 03:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
==== CheckUser lookups ==== | |||
The IPs are widely geographically disparate. In most cases, one of the usernames uses just one or two of the IPs. (I'll mark these later.) I don't think it's all one ''person''; the pattern is similar to that of agents of an organisation acting together, but I'd need to look closely at the editing style before saying it looks like that. More as I work out what on earth is going on here - ] 11:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Out of fairness, you might want to check to see if there is any sockpuppetry from Davidpdx's side of this arbitration request, because I remember reading somewhere that Centauri is a sock-puppet of Gene_polle. ] 22:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
====Note from ] re mediation==== | |||
Basically, I suggested mediation was a bad idea (note that I didn't "reject" the request ''per se'') because it appeared to be more of a request for sanctions against another user. The aggressive way in which it was phrased did not give me any impression that a mediation was likely to be successful. I was suggesting a user-conduct RFC, which I cannot see as having happened. From what I can see of the case, there are two groups of editors, who may or may not be sockpuppets, editing aggressively and communicating poorly. I only wish there were a way of dealing with edit-warring short of the full ArbCom salvo. ]</nowiki>]] 00:08, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
==== Arbitrators' opinions on hearing this matter (4/1/0/0) ==== | |||
* Accept to deal with edit warring. (But tread carefully on the sockpuppet claims; on preliminary investigation they do not check out.) ] (]) 09:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Reject - whack them (all the sockpuppets/IPs except Johnski). No need for an arbcom case. If he (Johnski) won't behave, then whack him too. (For the record, I checked on the sockpuppeting allegations above and while I cannot confirm all of the above suspicions, it does look like sockpuppeting is going on) ] 05:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
**I'm not quite sure it's sockpuppetry per se - looks like it might be meatpuppets in the form of an organisational push. I'll get back to you all on this one - ] 11:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept ] 12:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept — looks like meat rather than socks ] 23:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept. ] ] 18:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
== ] and ] == | |||
*] | |||
*Anon currently: ] | |||
* ] | |||
=== Confirmations === | |||
;Awareness | |||
* I have placed a notification on ] and | |||
* anon's ] page. | |||
* ] just woke up, and is slightly disoriented but aware. I was informed as a neutral party a couple of days ago . --]] 08:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
===Other steps=== | |||
* leading to latest page protection by ] | |||
*14 months of | |||
* Comments at | |||
* Comments at | |||
* A , in which TDC invited all of his friends and allies to chime in , but based on the history of this page, this will simply not work. | |||
=== Statement by ] === | |||
Since October 21, 2005 I have been involved with the page ]. This page has been protected 9 times in ten months, once since I have been invovled with the page. Currently, ] and anon have been the major players in revert wars. But other minor players have been recently involved with the editing of the page. The page has 421 deleted edits , I beleive many from ]. | |||
I attempted to set up a criticism section (which anon deletes full paragraphs from) and TDC is hooked on weaselwords, refusing to allow the word "testimony" to appear in the article. Neither wants to backdown or comprimise. Both are involved in retracted edit wars. ] 04:32, 9 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::* "Pro" winter soldier: ] (Myself), anon 209.86.1.4, Anon 165.247.200.100, ], ] | |||
::* "Con" winter soldier (people who tend to side with TDC): ], ], ], | |||
::* Neutral parties: ], ] | |||
*'''TDC''': TDC has been booted 13 times for similar revert wars . See also Requests for comment/TDC-2, Requests for comment/TDC <font color="red"> Requests for mediation TDC and Tony Sidaway | |||
] starts revert wars like the recent revert war on ] on several wikipages, and was recently warned again by ] on 5 November 2005 Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents | |||
'''FIRST revert war:''' Because of a FIRST revert war on ], which TDC started over long quotes, I erased many of the "superfluous use of direct quotations" (the reason why User:TDC erased many of the quotes) and moved them to wikiquote. This did not satisfy TDC. | |||
'''SECOND war:''' TDC found a new, SECOND war. ] and Duk then attempted to get the complete article ] (along with ] at the same time erased for a "copyright violation" for no more than a maximum of 6 isolated sentences that could be considered "copyright violations" in a 9 page article. I footnoted many of the copyright violations. AGAIN this did not satisfy TDC. ] began to write the article from scratch, he even complained to ] that "The first 4 paragraphs, having been written largely by me, can not posibly be considered a copyright violation.". I stopped this attempt to rewrite the entire article by ] with the participation of ] by filing a Mediation request. ] and ] changed the few sentences. ] protected the article on request of ] and ] unlocked it a few days later. | |||
'''THIRD revert war:''' ] began a new THIRD revert war, this time over the word "testimony", which he did not want anywhere in the article, and other weaselwords such as "claimed", "alleged". TDC refuses to allow the word "testimony" to be in the article, and continues to revert back. I reported TDC to 3RR but there wasn't enough times to get him booted. | |||
*'''Anon:''' Anon is the other revert war participant. The opposite of ], he allows very little information '''critical''' of ] to stay on the wikipage. ''Deleted link critical to WSI and two paragraphs critical of WSI'' | |||
I suggested spliting the article into a pro and con section, with a commitment from both parties that the other person only edit that section, but Anon refused. | |||
] reported Anon to 3RR. I initially supported Anon, then realized Anon was as guilty of revert wars and deleting information that does not support his ideology, just as TDC does. I then retracted my support for Anon too on the 3RR page. | |||
'''Conclusion:''' Incredibly all three of these revert wars perpetuated by TDC have only been since October 21, a space of 20 days. While you are at it, maybe you can arbitrate Vietnam Veterans Against the War with the same perps and the same issues. Please help. ''(I hope I did this right, this is my first Requests for arbitration.)'' | |||
'''Request for ''' | |||
I suggest that: | |||
::*anon have a ] placed on him for editing ] and ], | |||
::*that as per the TDC..."should be banned with a from editing any and all controversial topics related to U.S. military conflict." -- '']'' | |||
<font color="red">UPDATE: ] reported anon for a 3RR on ], the second time in a month, both accuse each other of lying. Anon is erasing the dispute tag The bitter revert war continues... | |||
=== Statement by ] === | |||
Contrary to the allegations made by Stevertigo and Travb, this is not an attempt to have the article erased or to have a certain POV dominate it, only to clear up glaring NPOV issues, remove copyvios and plagiarism and improve the quality of the article. Let me repeat that for some of the editors who are questioning my motives : THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO HAVE THE ARTICLE ERASED OR TO HAVE A CERTAIN POV DOMINATE IT. | |||
The problem with using so much cut and paste, as has been more than well documented, is that the information is plagiarized from sources overly sympathetic to the VVAW (including the VVAW’s own website) and the WSI. The inclusion of this information in its current form fundamentally alters the NOPV of the article. Why some editors cannot see this is beyond me. Would we allow an article on GW Bush to be comprised almost entirely of press briefings from the White House? Would we allow an article about PETA to consist primarily of quotes from PETA friendly sources? That’s all I am asking for here. | |||
I think that a history lesson on the article might be in order. The anon began contributing to this article sometime in July of 2004. He has had a pretty consistent tactic. He takes out any information he disagrees with, places it in talk and begins an never ending argument of either the validity of the information, or the relevance to the article. Almost as soon as he began contributing to the article, editors began to draw attention to his use of plagiarized material . Just in case any of you missed that, I was not the first editor to argue that the Anon’s use of plagiarized material was skewing the POV of the article. The anon then protects his edits using never ending and deceptively labeled Rv’s. Since he is using an EarthLink IP, he cannot be blocked, no matter how flagrant his violation is (he had 15rv’s in one day on another article), giving him impunity from any form of sanctions on his behavior. | |||
I know Travb has accused me of instigating an edit war over this article, and he is partially right. There currently exists an edit war over this article, but I fail to see how I am chiefly responsible for it. Where other editors have given up in frustration, I refuse to drop the issue and walk away from the article. Some might say I am being a POV warrior here, I call it diligence. The talk page has 1 current page and three archived pages full of lengthy discussions that have not solved a damn thing. The plagiarized material still finds its way into the article and any information the anon is uncomfortable with finds its way out. One section, 540 words, is nothing more than a lengthy quote from a VVAW friendly author. | |||
I have said before that I would abide by whatever decision is made. Not only do you have my promise, but you can sanction me if I don’t. Good luck getting the anon to do likewise. ] 17:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
I just wanted to add, what I think is one of the best examples of the Anon's deceptive editing and plagarism: | |||
: ''New York Times explained that he found nothing newsworthy to report because "this stuff happens in all wars." There were a smattering of articles sympathetic to the veterans in the underground press; and Pacifica Radio, with major channels on both coasts, devoted to a pacifist, left-wing perspective on current events, gave them excellent coverage. The CBS television crew that showed up were themselves deeply impressed, but none of their footage made it to the nightly news. '' | |||
from the WSI Misplaced Pages article | |||
:''The local field reporter for the "New York Times," Jerry M. Flint, commented with disinterest, "this stuff happens in all wars." In a February 7, 1971 article he wrote that "much of what they said had been reported or televised before, even from Vietnam. What was different here was the number of veterans present." Several of the VVAW representatives speculated that there was an "official censorship blackout," and they would express this theory later in their newsletter. A few articles that were sympathetic to the veterans appeared in lesser-known publications, and Pacifica Radio, known for its left-wing perspective, gave the event considerable coverage. The CBS television crew that showed up were impressed, but only three minutes made it to the nightly news on the first night -- three minutes that were "mostly irrelevant to the subject," according to VVAW.'' | |||
Instead of rewriting and crediting the information, the anon has simply rearranged a few sentences and changed significant factual portions of the plagiarized work, i.e: ''but none of their footage made it to the nightly news'' as has been changed to ''only three minutes made it to the nightly news on the first night''. I mean which one is it? The source that the material was clearly ripped off from states something completely different. And I am bieng singled out for bad faith edits? ] 17:15, 12 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
One more quick point (last one): If there weren’t users like me to balance out blatant POV's in far too many articles to count, it wouldn’t get done. ] 23:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
=== Statement by ]=== | |||
Please limit your statement to 500 words (more soon) | |||
=== Statement by ] === | |||
I am only peripherally involved, but I would like to add one item to ]'s account above, which convinced me of bad faith being involved in the "Second Edit War" above: namely that when ] began writing a new article , his initial '''from scratch''' version was blanked 31 minutes later by ] on grounds of being a | |||
. --] | ] 05:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
=== Statement by ] === | |||
] is flat out wrong here. shows that Ed did not re-write the article from scratch. The version I tagged after Ed's edits had copyvios that were initially identified at ], with more and more being noted on the talk page as they were uncovered. Many of these copyvios originated more than a year earlier and kept sneaking back into the article after an earlier copyvio revert. They included copied text and derivative work. | |||
This article had large amounts of copied work in it for over a year that was eventually morphed (in August I think), so that the copied paragraphs weren't exact copies. There were still copied sentences, clauses and paragraph structure, however, and the article was never reverted to the pre-copivio version before the morphing. It was therefor a derivative work copyvio. I resolved the copyvio after a long listing on ] by reverting to the pre-copyvio version. Later, the copied and derivative work kept sneaking back into the article, resulting in my tagging the page and at one time protecting it to keep the copyvio tag on. | |||
For example; take the phrase ''that an entire regiment of the Third Marines had penetrated several miles into that neutral nation''. It was from a paragraph that was added to the page as a copyvio from , sometime before , more than a year ago. It was removed when I resolved the copyvio by reverting to , and reappeared again, resulting the the copyvio tagging that Carlton mentions above. This phrase by itself isn't much, rather, its the numerous other examples of copied text that were identified in the article's talk page (a bunch more were identified over the following weeks). Also, look at the derivative writing around the directly copied parts. | |||
I've been called a lot of nasty names over this copyvio by people who think I have a political agenda, to which I reply that I have resolved thousands of copyvios but have almost no politically oriented edits (if anyone cares to look). Also, the harshest comments seem to come people who haven't taken the time to look closely at the article's history. | |||
As for Travb's complaint over the deleted history, I did that per from the administrators noticeboard. --] 02:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::<font size="1">On reflection, a half hour later after adding Duk, I have removed Duk as a central person in the arbitration. Duk, see your talk page.</font>] 03:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
*], one after the other, over and over again. And every time they get removed, or the article tagged, charges of POV, intellectual dishonesty and hidden agendas are made against the people cleaning up the mess. --] 00:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
*I agree with Tony (below), TDC's behavior has been pretty bad. And I'd like to add that this behavior is responsible, in part, for the many editors and admins discounting TDC's identification of copied and derived text, assuming instead that it was another one of his stunts. However, as bad as TDC's behavior has been, the EarthLink IP's behavior has been much, much worse. Intentionally introducing plagiarism and copyright violations from slanted, POV sources in order to advance their own POV. Then, when the copyvios are uncovered, morphing them into slightly different derivative works which are also copyright violations, just harder to catch. And doing all this while editing under different IPs to remain untouchable for behavior that they know is wrong. So far, the EarthLink IPs have completely gotten away with it. --] 16:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
=== Statement by ] === | |||
User:TDC has been a consistent and active foe and violator of Wikipedias ] policy in controversial areas and topics such as this one. He should be banned from editing any and all controversial topics related to U.S. military conflict. As stated above he has been consistent in using revert wars, policy and process rules (copyviolation, protection, 3RR, etc.) to POV war against the very existence of an article. How the Arbcom has managed to avoid banning him until now should be taken as evidence of the need for ]. | |||
-]|] 01:14, 11 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
=== Statement by ] === | |||
This seems to be a case of an editor deliberately choosing to treat Misplaced Pages as a battleground. I have tried to rein back the edit warring. TDC sometimes goes for the better part of a week apparently going down his watchlist and doing reverts. A month or two ago I blocked TDC for a couple of days, and more recently I admonished him, and he seemed to get the point and stop. Although others are involved, when TDC stops the warring stops. Past experience leads me to the expectation that he will simply wait until my attention is elsewhere and resume. 08:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
=== Arbitrators' opinions on hearing this matter (5/0/0/0) === | |||
* Accept. ] (]) 16:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept. ] ] 01:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept. -] ] 04:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept ] 23:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Accept. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 20:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
= Requests for Clarification = | |||
==Maoririder and the current Motion to Close== | |||
I looked on the /Proposed Decision page for Maoririder, and it seems odd to me that there is a MtC when there is currently nothing (only templates) in the "Proposed remedies" and "Proposed enforcement" sections. Can someone explain this? | |||
=Archives= | |||
*] | |||
*] ''(unofficial)'' | |||
] |
Latest revision as of 03:40, 31 January 2023
Wikimedia project pageArbitrationCommittee
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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Misplaced Pages. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.
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Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.
Open casesCase name | Links | Evidence due | Prop. Dec. due |
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Palestine-Israel articles 5 | (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) | 21 Dec 2024 | 11 Jan 2025 |
No cases have recently been closed (view all closed cases).
Clarification and Amendment requestsCurrently, no requests for clarification or amendment are open.
Arbitrator motionsMotion name | Date posted |
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Arbitrator workflow motions | 1 December 2024 |
Requests for arbitration
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About this page Use this section to request the committee open an arbitration case. To be accepted, an arbitration request needs 4 net votes to "accept" (or a majority). Arbitration is a last resort. WP:DR lists the other, escalating processes that should be used before arbitration. The committee will decline premature requests. Requests may be referred to as "case requests" or "RFARs"; once opened, they become "cases". Before requesting arbitration, read the arbitration guide to case requests. Then click the button below. Complete the instructions quickly; requests incomplete for over an hour may be removed. Consider preparing the request in your userspace. To request enforcement of an existing arbitration ruling, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. To clarify or change an existing arbitration ruling, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment.
Guidance on participation and word limits Unlike many venues on Misplaced Pages, ArbCom imposes word limits. Please observe the below notes on complying with word limits.
General guidance
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Requests for clarification and amendment
Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
- Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
- Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).
Submitting a request: (you must use this format!)
- Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
- Click here to file a request for clarification of an arbitration decision or procedure.
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- Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
- If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use
{{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}}
to do this. - Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.
Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.
Guidance on participation and word limits
Unlike many venues on Misplaced Pages, ArbCom imposes word limits. Please observe the below notes on complying with word limits.
- Motivation. Word limits are imposed to promote clarity and focus on the issues at hand and to ensure that arbitrators are able to fully take in submissions. Arbitrators must read a large volume of information across many matters in the course of their service on the Committee, so submissions that exceed word limits may be disregarded. For the sake of fairness and to discourage gamesmanship (i.e., to disincentivize "asking forgiveness rather than permission"), word limits are actively enforced.
- In general. Most submissions to the Arbitration Committee (including statements in arbitration case requests and ARCAs and evidence submissions in arbitration cases) are limited to 500 words, plus 50 diffs. During the evidence phase of an accepted case, named parties are granted an automatic extension to 1000 words plus 100 diffs.
- Sectioned discussion. To facilitate review by arbitrators, you should edit only in your own section. Address your submission to arbitrators, not to other participants. If you wish to rebut, clarify, or otherwise refer to another submission for the benefit of arbitrators, you may do so within your own section. (More information.)
- Requesting an extension. You may request a word limit extension in your submission itself (using the {{@ArbComClerks}} template) or by emailing clerks-llists.wikimedia.org. In your request, you should briefly (in 1-2 sentences) include (a) why you need additional words and (b) a broad outline of what you hope to discuss in your extended submission. The Committee endeavors to act upon extension requests promptly and aims to offer flexibility where warranted.
- Members of the Committee may also grant extensions when they ask direct questions to facilitate answers to those questions.
- Refactoring statements. You should write carefully and concisely from the start. It is impermissible to rewrite a statement to shorten it after a significant amount of time has passed or after anyone has responded to it (see Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines § Editing own comments), so it is often advisable to submit a brief initial statement to leave room to respond to other users if the need arises.
- Sign submissions. In order for arbitrators and other participants to understand the order of submissions, sign your submission and each addition (using
~~~~
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- Counting words. Words are counted on the rendered text (not wikitext) of the statement (i.e., the number of words that you would see by copy-pasting the page section containing your statement into a text editor or word count tool). This internal gadget may also be helpful.
- Sanctions. Please note that members and clerks of the Committee may impose appropriate sanctions when necessary to promote the effective functioning of the arbitration process.
General guidance
- Arbitrators and clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.
- Requests from blocked or banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Arbitration Committee.
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- Archived clarification and amendment requests are logged at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Clarification and Amendment requests. Numerous legacy and current shortcuts can be used to more quickly reach this page:
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Motions
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This section can be used by arbitrators to propose motions not related to any existing case or request. Motions are archived at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Motions. Only arbitrators may propose or vote on motions on this page. You may visit WP:ARC or WP:ARCA for potential alternatives. Make a motion (Arbitrators only) You can make comments in the sections called "community discussion" or in some cases only in your own section. Arbitrators or clerks may summarily remove or refactor any comment. |
Arbitrator workflow motions
Workflow motions: Arbitrator discussion
- I am proposing these three motions for discussion, community input, and a vote. Each seeks to improve ArbCom's functioning by providing for the performance of basic administrative responsibilities that sometimes go neglected, which, in my opinion, if successful, would significantly improve ArbCom's overall capacity. Motivation: We've known about the need for improvements to our workflow and capacity for some years now – I wrote about some of these suggestions in my 2022 ACE statement. It's a regular occurrence that someone will email in with a request or information and, because of the press of other work and because nobody is responsible for tracking and following up on the thread, we will let the thread drop without even realizing it and without deciding that no action is needed. We can each probably name a number of times this has happened, but one recent public example of adverse consequences from such a blunder was highlighted in the Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area case request, which was partially caused by our failure to address a private request that had been submitted to us months earlier. Previous efforts: We've experimented with a number of technological solutions to this problem during my four years on the Committee, including: (a) tracking matters on a Trello board or on a private Phabricator space; (b) tracking threads in Google Groups with tags; (c) requesting the development of custom technical tools; (d) reducing the appeals we hear; and (e) tracking appeals more carefully on arbwiki. Some of these attempts have been moderately successful, or showed promise for a time before stalling, but none of them have fully and fundamentally addressed this dropping-balls issue, which has persisted, and which in my opinion requires a human solution rather than just a technological solution. Rationale: The work we need done as framed below (e.g. bumping email threads) isn't fundamentally difficult or sensitive, but it's essential, and it's structurally hard for an active arbitrator to be responsible for doing it. For example, I could never bring myself to bump/nag others to opine on matters that I hadn't done my best to resolve yet myself. But actually doing the research to substantively opine on an old thread (especially as the first arb) can take hours of work, and I'm more likely to forget about it before I have the time to resolve it, and then it'll get lost in the shuffle. So it's best to somewhat decouple the tracking/clerical function from the substantive arb-ing work. Other efforts: There is one more technological solution for which there was interest among arbitrators, which was to get a CRM/ticketing system – basically, VRTS but hopefully better. I think this could help and would layer well with any of the other options, but there are some open questions (e.g., which one to get, how to pay for it, whether we can get all arbs to adopt it), and I don't think that that alone would address this problem (see similar attempts discussed above), so I think we should move ahead with one of these three motions now and adopt a ticketing system with whichever of the other motions we end up going with. These three motions are the result of substantial internal workshopping, and have been variously discussed (as relevant) with the functionaries, the clerks, and the Wikimedia Foundation (on a call in November). Before that, we held an ideation session on workflow improvements with the Foundation in July and have had informal discussions for a number of years. I deeply appreciate the effort and input that has gone into these motions from the entire committee and from the clerks and functionaries, and hope we can now pass one of them. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- One other thing I forgot to suggest—I'd be glad to write motions 1 or 2 up as a trial if any arb prefers, perhaps for 6-12 months, after which the motion could be automatically repealed unless the committee takes further action by motion to permanently continue the motion. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 23:39, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Workflow motions: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Workflow motions: Implementation notes
Clerks and Arbitrators should use this section to clarify their understanding of which motions are passing. These notes were last updated by an automatic check at 03:40, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Motion name | Support | Oppose | Abstain | Passing | Support needed | Notes |
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Motion 1: Correspondence clerks | 2 | 3 | 0 | 4 | One support vote contingent on 1.4 passing | |
Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener" | 1 | 2 | 1 | 4 | ||
Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant" | 0 | 1 | 3 | 4 | ||
Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial) | 0 | 3 | 1 | 5 | ||
Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly | 1 | 2 | 1 | 4 | ||
Motion 2: WMF staff support | 0 | 5 | 0 | Cannot pass | ||
Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators | 4 | 0 | 0 | 2 | ||
Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks | 0 | 3 | 0 | 6 |
- Notes
Motion 1: Correspondence clerks
- Nine-month trial
The Arbitration Committee's procedures are amended by adding the following section for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it:
- Correspondence clerks
The Arbitration Committee may appoint one or more former elected members of the Arbitration Committee to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee. Correspondence clerks must meet the Wikimedia Foundation's criteria for access to non-public personal data and sign the Foundation's non-public information confidentiality agreement.
Correspondence clerks shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.
The specific responsibilities of correspondence clerks shall include:
- Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
- Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
- Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
- Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
- Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.
The remit of correspondence clerks shall not include:
- Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or
- Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.
To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.
The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks.
All correspondence clerks shall hold concurrent appointments as arbitration clerks and shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0 | 6 |
1–2 | 5 |
3–4 | 4 |
- Support
- This is my first choice and falls within ArbCom's community-granted authority to
approve and remove access to mailing lists maintained by the Arbitration Committee
and todesignate individuals for particular tasks or roles
andmaintain a panel of clerks to assist with the smooth running of its functions
. Currently, we have arbitration clerks to help with on-wiki work, but most of ArbCom's workload is private (on arbcom-en), and our clerks have no ability to help with that because they can't access any of ArbCom's non-public work. It has always seemed strange to me to have clerks for on-wiki work, but not for the bulk of the work which is off-wiki (and which has always needed more coordination help). When consulting the functionaries, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that four functionaries (including three former arbitrators) expressed interest in volunteering for this role. This would be lower-intensity than serving as an arbitrator, but still essential to the functioning of the committee. We already have a number of ex-arbs on the clerks-l mailing list to advise and assist, and this seems like a natural extension of that function. The Stewards have a somewhat similar "Steward clerk" role, although ArbCom correspondence clerks would be a higher-trust position (functionary-level appointments only). I see this as the strongest option because the structure is familiar (analogous to our existing clerks, but for off-wiki business), because we have trusted functionaries and former arbs interested who could well discharge these responsibilities, and because I think we would benefit from separating the administrative responsibility from the substantive responsibility. The cons I see are that volunteer correspondence clerks might be less reliable than paid staff and that we'd be adding one or two (ish) people to the arbcom-en list. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC) - Contingent on 1.4 passing. This option was not my first choice, and I'm inclined to try having a coordinating Arb first, if we can get a volunteer/set of volunteers. Given that the new term should infuse the Committee with more life and vigor, we may find a coordinating Arb, or another solution. But I think we should put this in our toolbox for the moment. This doesn't force us to appoint someone, just gives us the ability and outlines the position. CaptainEek ⚓ 05:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- I don't think we should extend access to the mailing list and the private information it contains beyond what is absolutely necessary. I understand the reasoning behind former arbitrators in such a role as they previously had such access, but people emailing the Arbitration Committee should have confidence that private information is kept need to know and that only the current arbitrators evaluating and making decisions based on that private information have ongoing access to it. - Aoidh (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is limited to former arbitrators for good reasons, most of them privacy-related. But the same concerns that led to this proposal being limited to former arbitrators are also arguments against doing this at all. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
Motion 1: Arbitrator views and discussions
- I'd be glad changing this to only appoint former arbs, if that would tip anyone's votes. Currently, it's written as "from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps (and preferably from among former members of the Arbitration Committee)" for flexibility if needed, but I imagine we would only really appoint former arbs if available, except under unusual circumstances, because they understand how the mailing list discussions go and have previously been elected to handle the same private info. I am also open to calling it something other than "correspondence clerk"; that just seemed like a descriptive title. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do like the idea of using our Arbs emeritus for this position (and perhaps only Arbs emeritus); it ensures that they have experience in our byzantine process, and at least at some point held community trust. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek: I have changed the motion to make only former arbs eligible. If anyone preferred broader (all funct) eligibility, I've added an alternative motion 1.1 below, which if any arb does prefer it, they should uncollapse and vote for it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do like the idea of using our Arbs emeritus for this position (and perhaps only Arbs emeritus); it ensures that they have experience in our byzantine process, and at least at some point held community trust. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I also think that if we adopt this we should choose a better name. I know Barkeep49 meant this suggestion as a bit of a joke, but I actually think he was on the money when he suggested "scrivener." I like "adjutant" even more, which I believe he also suggested. They capture the sort of whimsical Misplaced Pages charm evoked by titles like Most Pluperfect Labutnum while still being descriptive, and not easily confused for a traditional clerk. CaptainEek ⚓ 03:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Whimsy is important -- Guerillero 08:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek and Guerillero: Per the above discussion points, I have (a) proposed two alternative names below that were workshopped among some arbs ("scrivener" on the more whimsical side and "coordination assistant" on the less whimsical side; see motions 1.2a and 1.2b), and (b) made this motion a nine-month trial, after which time the section is automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to extend it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:10, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I plan on supporting motion 1 over anything else. I've spent a week just getting onto all the platforms, and I'm already kind of shocked that this is how we do things. Not only is there a lot to keep track of, all of the information moves unintuitively between different places in a way that makes it very difficult to keep up unless you're actively plugged in enough to be on top of the ball – which I don't think anyone can be all the time. I just don't think a coordinating arb is sufficient: we need someone who can keep us on track without having to handle all of the standard work of reviewing evidence, deliberating, and making an informed decision. (Better-organized tech would also be great, but I'd need to spend a lot more time thinking about how it could be redone.) I understand the privacy concerns, but I don't think this represents a significant breach of confidentiality: people care more whether their report gets handled properly than whether it goes before 15 trusted people or 16. So, I'll be voting in favor of motion 1, and maybe motion 3 will be a distant second. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
References
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy § Scope and responsibilities
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy § Procedures and roles
Motion 1.1: expand eligible set to functionaries
If any arbitrator prefers this way, unhat this motion and vote for it. | ||||||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||
If motion 1 passes, replace the text For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
|
Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener"
If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "scriveners".
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0 | 6 |
1–2 | 5 |
3–4 | 4 |
- Support
- Nicely whimsical, and not as likely to be confusing as correspondence clerk. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- I think correspondence clerk is fine if role is something we're going with, it's less ambiguous as to what it entails than scrivener. - Aoidh (talk) 04:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have never heard that word before; at least "correspondence" and "clerk" are somewhat common in the English Misplaced Pages world. When possible, I think we should use words people don't have to look up in dictionaries. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
- I think that because it's more archaic and possibly less serious, I disprefer this to either "coordination assistant" or "correspondence clerk", but would ultimately be perfectly happy with it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Arbitrator discussion
Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant"
If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "coordination assistants".
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0 | 6 |
1–2 | 5 |
3–4 | 4 |
- Support
- Oppose
- Abstain
- I am indifferent between this and "correspondence clerk". Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- If we're going to use a role like this, either this or correspondence clerk is fine. - Aoidh (talk) 04:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- That would be okay. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:08, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Arbitrator discussion
Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial)
If motion 1 passes, omit the text for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it
.
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0 | 6 |
1–2 | 5 |
3–4 | 4 |
- Support
- Oppose
- I recently experimented with sunset clauses and think that frankly a lot more of what we do should have such time limits that require us to stop and critically evaluate if a thing is working. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- If this change is necessary, there should be a review of it after a reasonable trial period to see what does and does not work. - Aoidh (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:10, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
- I have no preference as to whether this is permanent or a trial. I do think that nine months is a good length for the trial if we choose to have one: not too long to lock in a year's committee; not too short to make it unworthwhile. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Arbitrator discussion
Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly
If motion 1 passes, strike the following text:
To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.
And replace it with the following:
To that end, correspondence clerks shall be added to the arbcom-en mailing list. The Committee shall continue to maintain at least one mailing list accessible only by arbitrators.
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0 | 6 |
1–2 | 5 |
3–4 | 4 |
- Support
- Much less trouble to have them on the main list than to split the lists. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Access to private information should be as limited as possible to only what is strictly necessary to perform such a task, and I don't see a allowing full access to the contents of the current list necessary for this. I'd rather not split the list, but between that and giving full access then if we're going to have a correspondence clerk, then it needs to be split. - Aoidh (talk) 04:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Motion 1 is already problematic for privacy reasons; this would make it worse. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
- I would not really object to this. C-clerks (or whatever we call them) are former arbs and have previously been on arbcom-en in any event, so it doesn't seem that like a big deal to do this. On the other hand, I would understand if folks prefer the split. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Arbitrator discussion
- Proposed per Guerillero's comment below. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Motion 2: WMF staff support
The Arbitration Committee requests that the Wikimedia Foundation Committee Support Team provide staff support for the routine administration and organization of the Committee's mailing list and non-public work.
The selected staff assistants shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work. Staff assistants shall perform their functions under the direction of the Arbitration Committee and shall not represent the Wikimedia Foundation in the course of their support work with the Arbitration Committee or disclose the Committee's internal deliberations except as directed by the Committee.
The specific responsibilities of the staff assistants shall include, as directed by the Committee:
- Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
- Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
- Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
- Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
- Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.
The remit of staff assistants shall not include:
- Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or
- Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.
To that end, upon the selection of staff assistants, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and staff assistants.
The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by staff assistants.
Staff assistants shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0 | 6 |
1–2 | 5 |
3–4 | 4 |
- Support
- Oppose
- I appreciate that Kevin put this together, and I think this would be very helpful, maybe even the most helpful, way to ensure that we stayed on top of the ball. But just because it would achieve one goal doesn't make it a good idea. A full version of my rationale is on the ArbList, for other Arbs. The short, WP:BEANS version is that this would destroy the line between us and the Foundation, which undoes much of our utility. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:22, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Per my comment on motion 4. - Aoidh (talk) 01:31, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I like the general idea of the WMF using its donated resources to support the community that made the donations possible. I am uncomfortable with putting WMF staff in front of ArbCom's e-mail queue, however, as this would come with unavoidable conflicts of interest and a loss of independence. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- The help would be useful, but the consequences would be detrimental to both ArbCom & WMF. Some space between us is necessary for ArbCom's impartiality & for the WMF's section 230 position. Cabayi (talk) 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
Motion 2: Arbitrator views and discussions
- I am quite open to this idea. A professional staff member assisting the committee might be the most reliable and consistent way to achieve this goal. ArbCom doesn't need the higher-intensity support that the WMF Committee Support Team provides other committees like AffCom and the grant committees, but having somebody to track threads and bump stalled discussions would be quite helpful. I'm going to wait to see if there's any community input on this motion before voting on it, though. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators
The Arbitration Committee's procedures are amended by adding the following section:
- Coordinating arbitrators
The Arbitration Committee shall, from time to time, designate one or more arbitrators to serve as the Committee's coordinating arbitrators.
Coordinating arbitrators shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.
The specific responsibilities of coordinating arbitrators shall include:
- Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
- Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
- Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
- Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
- Performing similar routine administrative and clerical functions.
A coordinating arbitrator may, but is not required to, state an intention to abstain on some or all matters before the Committee without being listed as an "inactive" arbitrator.
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0 | 6 |
1–2 | 5 |
3–4 | 4 |
- Support
- This is currently my first-choice option; we have unofficially in the past had arbitrators take on specific roles (e.g. tracking unblock requests, responding to emails, etc) and it seemed to work fairly well. Having those rules be more "official" seems like the best way to make sure someone is responsible for these things, without needing to expand the committee or the pool of people with access to private information. Primefac (talk) 18:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I may still vote for the clerks option, but I think this is probably the minimum of what we need. Will it be suffucient...aye, there's the rub. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Of the motions proposed, this one is the one I'd most support. It doesn't expand the number of people who can view the ArbCom mailing list beyond those on ArbCom, and creates a structure that may improve how the mailing list is handled. - Aoidh (talk) 23:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Per Primefac. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Abstain
Motion 3: Arbitrator views and discussions
- I am also open to this idea, though I am worried that it will be insufficient and haven't made up my mind on my vote yet. This idea was floated by a former arbitrator from back when the committee did have a coordinating arbitrator, though that role kind of quietly faded away. The benefits of this approach include that there's no need to bring anyone else onto the list. This motion also allows (but does not require) arbs to take a step back from active arb business to focus on the coordination role, which could help with the bifurcation I mention above. Cons include that this could be the least reliable option; that it's possible no arb is interested, or has the capacity to do this well; and that it's hard to be both a coordinator on top of the existing difficult role of serving as an active arb. I personally think this is better than nothing, but probably prefer one of the other two motions to actually add some capacity. Other ideas that have been floated include establishing a subcommittee of arbitrators responsible for these functions. My same concerns would apply there, but if there's interest, I'm glad to draft and propose a motion to do that; any other arb should also feel free to propose such a motion of their own. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I was partial to this idea, though it was not my first choice. I proposed that we might make it a rotating position, à la the presidency of the UN security council. Alternatively, a three person subcommittee might also be the way to go, so that the position isn't dependent on one person's activity. I like this solution in general because we already basically had it, with the coordinating arbitrator role. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek: I think your last sentence actually kind of nails why I don't love this solution? From a new person on the scene, it doesn't seem to me like trying old strategies and things we've already been doing is really going to solve a chronic problem. If there are arbs who really are willing to be the coordinators, that's better than nothing, but I haven't seen any step up yet and I'm not convinced that relying on at least one arb having the extra time and trust in every committee to do this work is sustainable. I am leaning towards voting for the scriveners motion, though, because I do love a good whimsical name theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- My concern with this is that if an arb already has the time and inclination you'd expect them to be filling the role, as has happened in the past. Simply formalizing the role doesn't help if no one has the motivation to do it. It's still the option I support the most out of those listed, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think formalizing it does move the needle on someone doing it. Two possible benefits of the formalization:
- My concern with this is that if an arb already has the time and inclination you'd expect them to be filling the role, as has happened in the past. Simply formalizing the role doesn't help if no one has the motivation to do it. It's still the option I support the most out of those listed, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek: I think your last sentence actually kind of nails why I don't love this solution? From a new person on the scene, it doesn't seem to me like trying old strategies and things we've already been doing is really going to solve a chronic problem. If there are arbs who really are willing to be the coordinators, that's better than nothing, but I haven't seen any step up yet and I'm not convinced that relying on at least one arb having the extra time and trust in every committee to do this work is sustainable. I am leaning towards voting for the scriveners motion, though, because I do love a good whimsical name theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- It makes clear that this is a valuable role, one that an arb should feel is a sufficient and beneficial way to spend their time. It also communicates this to the community, which might otherwise ask an arb running for reelection why they spent their time coordinating (rather than on other arb work).
- It gives "permission" for coordinating arbs to go inactive on other business if they wish.
- These two benefits make this motion more than symbolic in my view. My hesitation on it remains that it may be quite insufficient relative to motion 1. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks
In the event that "Motion 1: Correspondence clerks" passes, the Arbitration Committee shall request that the Wikimedia Foundation provide grants payable to correspondence clerks in recognition of their assistance to the Committee.
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0 | 6 |
1–2 | 5 |
3–4 | 4 |
- Support
- Oppose
- Misplaced Pages should remain a volunteer activity. If we cannot find volunteers to do the task, then perhaps it ought not be done in the first place. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- We should not have a clerk paid by the WMF handling English Misplaced Pages matters in this capacity. - Aoidh (talk) 01:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
Motion 4: Arbitrator views and discussions
- Proposing for discussion; thanks to voorts for the idea. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am leaning no on this motion. The potential downsides of this plan do seem to outweigh the benefit of being able to compensate a correspondence clerk for what will ultimately likely be something like 5 hours a week at most. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Community discussion
Will correspondence clerks be required to sign an NDA? Currently clerks aren't. Regardless of what decision is made this should probably be in the motion. * Pppery * it has begun... 18:29, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Good catch. I thought it was implied by "from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps" – who all sign NDAs as a condition to access functionaries-en and the CUOS tools; see Misplaced Pages:Functionaries (
Functionary access requires that the user sign the confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information.
) – but I've made it explicit now. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)- You're right that that was there, but I missed it on my first readthrough of the rules (thinking correspondence clerks would be appointed from the clerk team instead). * Pppery * it has begun... 18:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Why does "coordinating arbitrators" need a (public) procedures change? Izno (talk) 18:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- As Primefac mentioned above, it seems reasonable to assume that having something written down "officially" might help make sure that the coordinating arbitrator knows what they are responsible for. In any event, it probably can't hurt. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- It is a pain in the ass to get formal procedures changed. There is an internal procedures page: I see 0 reason not to use it if you want to clarify what the role of this arbitrator is. Izno (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- On top of that, this doesn't actually change the status quo much if at all. It is almost entirely a role definition for an internal matter, given "we can make an arb a CA, but we don't have to have one" in it's "from time to time" clause. This just looks like noise to anyone reading ARBPRO who isn't on ArbCom: the public doesn't need to know this arb even exists, though they might commonly be the one responding to emails so they might get a sense there is such an arb. Izno (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
While I appreciate that some functionaries are open to volunteering for this role, this borders on is a part-time secretarial job and ought to be compensated as such. The correspondence clerks option combined with WMF throwing some grant money towards compensation would be my ideal. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for this suggestion – I've added motion 4 to address this suggestion. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
In the first motion the word "users" in "The Committee shall establish a process to allow users to, in unusual circumstances" is confusing, it should probably be "editors". In the first and second motions, it should probably be explicit whether correspondence clerks/support staff are required, permitted or prohibited to:
- Share statistical information publicly
- Share status information (publicly or privately) with correspondents who wish to know the status of their request.
- Share status information (publicly or privately) about the status of a specific request with someone other than the correspondent.
- For this I'm thinking of scenarios like where e.g. an editor publicly says they emailed the Committee about something a while ago, and one or more other editors asks what is happening with it.
I think my preference would be for 1 or 2, as these seem likely to be the more reliable. Neither option precludes there also being a coordinating arbitrator doing some of the tasks as well. Thryduulf (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for these suggestions. I've changed "users" to "editors". The way I'm intending these motions to be read, correspondence clerks or staff assistants should only disclose information as directed by the committee. I think the details of which information should be shared upon whose request in routine cases could be decided later by the committee, with the default being "ask ArbCom before disclosing until the committee decides to approve routine disclosures in certain cases", because it's probably hard to know in advance which categories will be important to allow. I'm open to including more detail if you think that's important to include at this stage, though, and I'd welcome hearing why if so. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I see your point, but I think it worth clarifying certain things in advance before they become an issue to avoid unrealistic or mistaken expectations of the c-clerks by the community. Point 1 doesn't need to be specified in advance, maybe something like "communicating information publicly as directed by the Committee" would be useful to say in terms of expectation management or maybe it's still to specific? I can see both sides of that.
- Point 2 I think is worth establishing quickly and while it is on people's minds. Waiting for the committee to make up its mind before knowing whether they can give a full response to a correspondent about this would be unfair to both the correspondent and clerk I think. This doesn't necessarily have to be before adoption, but if not it needs to be very soon afterwards.
- Point 3 is similar, but c-clerks and community members knowing exactly what can and cannot be shared, and especially being able to point to something in writing about what cannot be said publicly, has the potential to reduce drama e.g. if there is another situation similar to Billed Mammal's recent case request. Thryduulf (talk) 19:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
What justification is there for the WMF to spend a single additional dollar on the workload of a project-specific committee whose workload is now demonstrably smaller than at any time in its history? (Noting here that there is a real dollar-cost to the support already being given by WMF, such as the monthly Arbcom/T&S calls that often result in the WMF accepting requests for certain activities.) And anyone who is being paid by the WMF is responsible to the WMF as the employer, not to English Misplaced Pages Arbcom.
I think Arbcom is perhaps not telling the community some very basic facts that are leading to their efforts to find someone to take responsibility for its organization, which might include "we have too many members who aren't pulling their weight" or "we have too many members who, for various reasons that don't have to do with Misplaced Pages, are inactive", or "we have some tasks that nobody really wants to do". There's no indication that any of these solutions would solve these kinds of problems, and I think that all of these issues are factors that are clearly visible to those who follow Arbcom on even an occasional basis. Arbitrators who are inactive for their own reasons aren't going to become more active because someone's organizing their mail. Arbitrators who don't care enough to vote on certain things aren't any more likely to vote if someone is reminding them to vote in a non-public forum; there's no additional peer pressure or public guilt-tripping. And if Arbcom continues to have tasks that nobody really wants to do, divest those tasks. Arbcom has successfully done that with a large number of tasks that were once its responsibility.
I think you can do a much better job of making your case. Risker (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think there is a need to do something as poor communication and extremely slow replies, if replies are made at all, has been an ongoing issue for the committee for some time. However I agree that asking the foundation to pay someone to do it is going too far. The point that if you are paid by the foundation, you work for them and not en.wp or arbcom is a compelling one. There's also a slippery slope argument to be made in that if we're paying these people, shouldn't we pay the committee? If we're paying the committee, shouldn't we pay the arbitration clerks....and so on. Just Step Sideways 20:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I fully share Risker's concern about a paid WMF staffer who, no matter how well-intentioned, will be answerable to the WMF and not ARBCOM. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- The 2023-2024 committee is much more middle aged and has less university students and retirees, who oftentimes have more free time, than the 2016-2017 committee. -- Guerillero 08:56, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the issue of there often being some Committee members who, for whatever reason, are not "pulling their weight", is at the core of the problem to be addressed here. Because this happens "behind the scenes", the community has no way to hold anyone accountable in elections, and because of human nature and the understandable desire to maintain a collegial atmosphere within the Committee, I don't really expect any members to call out a colleague in public. I suppose there could even be a question of what happens if whoever might be filling the role proposed here nudges a member to act, but the member just disregards that. It's difficult to see how to make it enforceable. I don't have any real solutions, but this strikes me as central to the problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is largely correct. I was reluctant on the committee to even note this committee's inactivity problem (worst of any 15-member arbcom ever), even though it was based on a metric that is public, when I was still on the committee. And it gets further complicated by the fact that some people not visibly active in public more than pull their weight behind the scenes - the testimonials Maxim received when running for re-election being a prime example. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- During my first term it was Roger Davies. He was barely a presence on-wiki but he kept the whole committee on point and up-to-date about what was pending. Trypto is right that it isn't enforceable, it is more a matter of applying pressure to either do the job or move oneself to the inactive list.
- I also think the committee can and should be more proactive about declaring other arbs inactive even when they are otherwise present on-wiki or on the mailing list" That would probably require a procedures change, but I think it would make sense. If there is a case request, proposed decision, or other matter that requires a vote before the committee and an arb doesn't comment on it for ten days or more, they clearly don't have the time and/or inclination to do so and should be declared inactive on that matter so that their lack of action does not further delay the matter. It would be nice if they would just do so themselves, or just vote "abstain" on everything, which only takes a few minutes, but it seems it has not been happening in practice. Just Step Sideways 00:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- And Roger was a pensioner which kinda proves my point -- Guerillero 08:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Roger may have been a pensioner at the end of his time on the committee (7 years), but he certainly wasn't at the beginning of his term. He was co-ordinating arbitrator for a lot of that time, and did a good job without a single bit of extra software. The problem with that software is that people have to already be actively engaged to even contemplate using it. My sense is that the real issue here is the lack of engagement (whether periodic or chronic) on the part of many of the arbitrators. People who are inactive on Arbcom tasks aren't going to be active on any tasks, including reading emails asking them to do things or special software sending alerts. Simply put, if people aren't going to put Arbcom as their primary Misplaced Pages activity for the next two years, keeping in mind other life events that will likely take them away, they should not run in the first place. Yes, unexpected things happen. But I think a lot of the inactivity we've seen in the last few years involved some predictable absences that the arbs knew about when they were candidates. (Examples I've seen myself: Oh, I have a big exam to write that needs months of study; oh, I have a major life event that will require a lot of planning; oh, I'm graduating and will have to find a job.) No, I don't expect people to reveal this kind of information about themselves; yes, I do expect them to refrain from volunteering for roles that they can reasonably foresee they will have difficulty fulfilling. Risker (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I might as well ask a hard question. Is there a way to make public enough information for the community to be able to evaluate ArbCom candidates for (re)election, in terms of behind-the-scenes inactivity? If individual Arbs were to make public comments, that would do it, but it would also potentially be very contentious and could reduce effectiveness instead of improving it. Could ArbCom initiate a new process of posting onsite information about the processing of tasks, without revealing private information (such as: "Ban appeal 1", "Ban appeal 2", instead of "Ban appeal by "), and list those members who voted (perhaps without listing which way they voted)? Maybe do that monthly, and include all tasks that had not yet gotten a quorum. Yes, I know that's difficult. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I question an answer to the problem of "we're having trouble finding enough people to do the secretarial work we have already" being "let's create substantially more secretarial work" even accepting the premise that people would then get voted off if they didn't pull their weight. While I think that premise is correct, what this system would also encourage - even more than it already exists - is an incentive to just go along with whatever the first person (or the person who has clearly done the most homework) says. And that defeats the purpose of having a committee made up of individual thinkers. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's a fair point. I'll admit that, even from the outside, I sometimes see members who appear to wait to see which way the wind is blowing before voting on proposed decisions. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's something that's hard to know or verify, even for the other arbs. The arbs only know what the other arbs tell them, and I've never seen anyone admit to that. Just Step Sideways 23:44, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's a fair point. I'll admit that, even from the outside, I sometimes see members who appear to wait to see which way the wind is blowing before voting on proposed decisions. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I question an answer to the problem of "we're having trouble finding enough people to do the secretarial work we have already" being "let's create substantially more secretarial work" even accepting the premise that people would then get voted off if they didn't pull their weight. While I think that premise is correct, what this system would also encourage - even more than it already exists - is an incentive to just go along with whatever the first person (or the person who has clearly done the most homework) says. And that defeats the purpose of having a committee made up of individual thinkers. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I might as well ask a hard question. Is there a way to make public enough information for the community to be able to evaluate ArbCom candidates for (re)election, in terms of behind-the-scenes inactivity? If individual Arbs were to make public comments, that would do it, but it would also potentially be very contentious and could reduce effectiveness instead of improving it. Could ArbCom initiate a new process of posting onsite information about the processing of tasks, without revealing private information (such as: "Ban appeal 1", "Ban appeal 2", instead of "Ban appeal by "), and list those members who voted (perhaps without listing which way they voted)? Maybe do that monthly, and include all tasks that had not yet gotten a quorum. Yes, I know that's difficult. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Roger may have been a pensioner at the end of his time on the committee (7 years), but he certainly wasn't at the beginning of his term. He was co-ordinating arbitrator for a lot of that time, and did a good job without a single bit of extra software. The problem with that software is that people have to already be actively engaged to even contemplate using it. My sense is that the real issue here is the lack of engagement (whether periodic or chronic) on the part of many of the arbitrators. People who are inactive on Arbcom tasks aren't going to be active on any tasks, including reading emails asking them to do things or special software sending alerts. Simply put, if people aren't going to put Arbcom as their primary Misplaced Pages activity for the next two years, keeping in mind other life events that will likely take them away, they should not run in the first place. Yes, unexpected things happen. But I think a lot of the inactivity we've seen in the last few years involved some predictable absences that the arbs knew about when they were candidates. (Examples I've seen myself: Oh, I have a big exam to write that needs months of study; oh, I have a major life event that will require a lot of planning; oh, I'm graduating and will have to find a job.) No, I don't expect people to reveal this kind of information about themselves; yes, I do expect them to refrain from volunteering for roles that they can reasonably foresee they will have difficulty fulfilling. Risker (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- And Roger was a pensioner which kinda proves my point -- Guerillero 08:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is largely correct. I was reluctant on the committee to even note this committee's inactivity problem (worst of any 15-member arbcom ever), even though it was based on a metric that is public, when I was still on the committee. And it gets further complicated by the fact that some people not visibly active in public more than pull their weight behind the scenes - the testimonials Maxim received when running for re-election being a prime example. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the issue of there often being some Committee members who, for whatever reason, are not "pulling their weight", is at the core of the problem to be addressed here. Because this happens "behind the scenes", the community has no way to hold anyone accountable in elections, and because of human nature and the understandable desire to maintain a collegial atmosphere within the Committee, I don't really expect any members to call out a colleague in public. I suppose there could even be a question of what happens if whoever might be filling the role proposed here nudges a member to act, but the member just disregards that. It's difficult to see how to make it enforceable. I don't have any real solutions, but this strikes me as central to the problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I think the timing for this is wrong. The committee is about to have between 6 and 9 new members (depending on whether Guerillero, Eek, and Primefac get re-elected). In addition it seems likely that some number of former arbs are about to rejoin the committee. This committee - basically the committee with the worst amount of active membership of any 15 member committee ever - seems like precisely the wrong one to be making large changes to ongoing workflows in December. Izno's idea of an easier to try and easier to change/abandon internal procedure for the coordinating arb feels like something appropriate to try now. The rest feel like it should be the prerogative of the new committee to decide among (or perhaps do a different change altogether). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:44, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Kevin can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed he was doing this now because he will not be on the committee a month from now.
- That being said it could be deliberately held over, or conversely, possibly fall victim to the inactivity you mention and still be here for the new committee to decide. Just Step Sideways 23:12, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since WP:ACE2024 elections are currently taking place it makes sense to have the incoming arbitrators weigh in on changes like this. They are the ones that will be affected by any of these motions passing rather than the outgoing arbitrators. - Aoidh (talk) 00:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh I assumed that's why he was doing it also. I am also assuming he's doing it to try and set up the future committees for success. That doesn't change my point about why this is the wrong time and why a different way of trying the coordinator role (if it has support) would be better. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding "timing is wrong": I think you both would agree that these are a long time coming – we have been working on these and related ideas for years (I ran on a related idea in 2022). I do think there's never quite a good time. Very plausibly, the first half of the year is out because the new arbs will need that time to learn how the processes work and think about what kinds of things should be changed vs. kept the same. And then it might be another few months as the new ArbCom experiments with less-consequential changes like the ones laid about at the top: technological solutions, trying new ways of tracking stuff, etc., before being confident in the need for something like set out above. And then things get busy for other reasons; there will be weeks or even occasionally months when the whole committee is overtaken by some urgent situation. I've experienced a broadly similar dynamic a few times now; this is all to say that there's just not much time or space in the agenda for this kind of stuff in a one-year cycle, which would be a shame because I do think this is important to take on.
I do think that it should be the aspiration of every year's committee to leave the succeeding committee some improvements in the functioning of the committee based on lessons learned that year, so it would be nice to leave the next committee with this. That said, if arbitrators do feel that we should hold this over to the new committee, I'm not really in a position to object – as JSS says, this is my last year on the committee, so it's not like this will benefit me. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)- I think it's entirely possible for the new committee to have a sense of what it wants workload wise by February-April and so it's wrong to just rule out the first half of the year. By the end of the first six months of the year that you and I started (and which JSS was a sitting member on) we'd made a number of changes to how things were done. Off the top of my head I can name the structure of cases and doing quarterly reports of private appeals as two but there were others. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- Here's what I'll leave you with overall. What you may see as a downside – these proposals being voted on relatively late in the year – I see as a significant possible upside. Members of this committee are able to draw on at least eleven months' experience as arbitrators in deciding what is working well and what might warrant change – experience which is important in determining what kinds of processes and systems lead to effective and ineffective outcomes. That experience is important: Although I have served on ArbCom for four years and before that served as an ArbCom clerk for almost six years, I still learn more every year about what makes this committee click. If what really concerns you is locking in the new committee to a particular path, as I wrote above, I'm very open to structuring this as a trial run that will end of its own accord unless the committee takes action to make it permanent. This would ensure that the new committee retains full control over whether to continue, discontinue, or adapt these changes. But in my book, it does not make sense to wait. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's entirely possible for the new committee to have a sense of what it wants workload wise by February-April and so it's wrong to just rule out the first half of the year. By the end of the first six months of the year that you and I started (and which JSS was a sitting member on) we'd made a number of changes to how things were done. Off the top of my head I can name the structure of cases and doing quarterly reports of private appeals as two but there were others. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- As a 3-term former arb and a 3-term current ombuds commissioner, I've had experience of about a dozen Wikimedia committee "new intakes". I am quite convinced that these proposals are correctly timed. Process changes are better put in place prior to new appointees joining, so that they are not joining at a moment of upheaval. Doing them late in the day is not objectionable and momentum often comes at the end of term. If the changes end up not working (doubtful), the new committee would just vote to tweak the process or go back. I simply do not understand the benefit of deferring proposals into a new year, adding more work to the next year's committee. That surely affects the enthusiasm and goodwill of new members. As for the point that the '24 committee is understaffed and prone to indecision: argumentum ad hominem. If Kevin's proposals work, they work. If anything, it might be more difficult to agree administrative reforms when the committee is back at full staff. arcticocean ■ 15:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- If these pass now you will have new members join at a moment of upheaval as anything proposed here will still be in its infancy when the new members join (even if we pretend the new members are joining Jan 1 rather than much sooner given that results are in and new members tend to be added to the list once the right boxes are checked). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- You're right. And it's important to be realistic: any proposal would be under implementation for several months, so say from December through February. Would that be so bad? Any change will disrupt, in the sense that a few people need to spend time implementing it and everyone else needs to learn the new process. But waiting until later in the year causes even more disruption: members have to first learn an 'old' process and then learn the changes you're making to it… New member enthusiasm is also a keen force that could help to push through the changes. arcticocean ■ 16:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think new member enthusiasm is part of why I think this lame duck hobbled committee is the wrong one to do it. I have high hopes for next year's group and think they would be in a better place to come up with the right solution for them. And as I noted to Kevin above this isn't hypothetical - the year we both started as arbs we made a lot of process and procedure changes in the first six months. It was a great thing to funnel that new arb energy into because I was bought into what we were doing rather than trying to make something work that I had no say in and that the existing members had no experience with. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- While I think a solution such as adopting ZenDesk is something that could face objections, personally I think the idea of having someone track a list of work items for a committee is a pretty standard way of working (including pushing for timely resolution, something that really needs a person, not just a program). From an outsider's perspective, it's something I'd expect. It doesn't matter to non-arbitrators who does the tracking, so the committee should feel free to change that decision internally as often as it feels is effective. I'd rather there be a coordinating arbitrator in place in the interim until another solution is implemented, than have no one tracking work items in the meantime. isaacl (talk) 19:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think new member enthusiasm is part of why I think this lame duck hobbled committee is the wrong one to do it. I have high hopes for next year's group and think they would be in a better place to come up with the right solution for them. And as I noted to Kevin above this isn't hypothetical - the year we both started as arbs we made a lot of process and procedure changes in the first six months. It was a great thing to funnel that new arb energy into because I was bought into what we were doing rather than trying to make something work that I had no say in and that the existing members had no experience with. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- You're right. And it's important to be realistic: any proposal would be under implementation for several months, so say from December through February. Would that be so bad? Any change will disrupt, in the sense that a few people need to spend time implementing it and everyone else needs to learn the new process. But waiting until later in the year causes even more disruption: members have to first learn an 'old' process and then learn the changes you're making to it… New member enthusiasm is also a keen force that could help to push through the changes. arcticocean ■ 16:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- If these pass now you will have new members join at a moment of upheaval as anything proposed here will still be in its infancy when the new members join (even if we pretend the new members are joining Jan 1 rather than much sooner given that results are in and new members tend to be added to the list once the right boxes are checked). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Just to double check that I'm reading motion 1 correctly, it would still be possible to email the original list (for arbitrators only) if, for example, you were raising a concern about something the correspondence clerks should not be privy to (ie: misuse of tools by a functionary), correct? Granted, I think motion 3 is probably the simpler option here, but in the event motion 1 passes, is the understanding I wrote out accurate? EggRoll97 02:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- @EggRoll97 Yes, but probably only after an additional step. The penultimate paragraph of motions 1 and 2 says
The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks .
No details are given about what this process would be, but one possibility would I guess be something like contacting an individual arbitrator outlining clearly why you think the c-clerks should not be privy to whatever it is. If they agree they'll tell you how to submit your evidence (maybe they'll add your email address to a temporary whitelist). Thryduulf (talk) 03:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
In my experience working on committees and for non-profits, typically management is much more open to offering money for software solutions that they are told can resolve a problem than agreeing to pay additional compensation for new personnel. Are you sure there isn't some tracking solution that could resolve some of these problems? Liz 07:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- In our tentative discussions with WMF, it sounded like it would be much more plausible to get a 0.1-0.2 FTE of staffer time than it would to get us 15 ZenDesk licenses, which was also somewhat surprising to me. That wasn't a firm response – if we went back and said we really need this, I'm guessing it'd be plausible. And we've never asked about compensating c-clerks – that was an idea that came from Voorts's comment above, and I proposed it for discussion, not because I necessarily support it but because I think it's worth discussion, and I certainly don't think it's integral to the c-clerk proposal. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 15:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, offering compensation for on-wiki tasks would be breaking new ground for the project. I do wonder though about the possibility of securing former arbitrators for these correspondent clerks' positions. It sounds like all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results. I don't know if we'd have many interested and eligible parties. How many clerks would you think would be necessary? One? Or 3 or 4? Liz 21:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, these are great questions. Responses to your points:
- On volunteers: As I wrote above, four functionaries (including three former arbs) expressed initial-stage interest when this was floated when I consulted functionaries – which is great and was a bit unexpected, and which is why I wrote it up this way. Arbitrators will know that my initial plan from previous months/years did not involve limiting this to functionaries, to have a broader pool of applicants. But since we do have several interested functs, and they are already trusted to hold NDA'd private information (especially the former arbs who have previously been elected to access to this very list), I thought this would be a good way to make this a more uncontroversial proposal.
- How many to appoint? I imagine one or two if it was up to me. One would be ideal (I think it's like 30 minutes of work per day ish, max), but two for redundancy might make a lot of sense. I don't think it's
all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results
– because the c-clerk would be responsible for tracking matters, not actually attempting to resolve them, that's a lot less work than serving as an arb. It does require more consistency than most arbs have to put in, though. - On compensating: Yeah, I'm not sure I'll end up supporting the idea, but I don't think it's unprecedented in the sense that you're thinking. Correspondence clerks aren't editing; none of the tasks listed in the motion require on-wiki edits. And there are plenty of WMF grants that have gone to off-wiki work for the benefit of projects; the first example I could think of was m:Grants:Programs/Wikimedia Community Fund/Rapid Fund/UTRS User Experience Development (ID: 22215192) but I know there are many.
- Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am quite confused, I often read arbs saying most of ArbCom work is behind-the-scenes work. But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work? If so, the solution here is that more arbs should simply pull their weight, which Motion 3 helps. I don't think WMF would pay someone to work 30 minutes a day either. Kenneth Kho (talk) 07:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work?
. No, the actual work takes a lot more time and effort because each arb has to read, understand and form opinions on many different things, and the committee needs to discuss most of those things, which will often re-reading and re-evaluating based on the points raised. Then in many cases there needs to be a vote. What the "one-person, 30 minutes a day" is referring to is just the meta of what tasks are open, what the current status of it is, who needs to opine on it, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 11:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)- Thanks, I realized I misunderstood it. I see that this is a relatively lightweight proposal, perhaps it could work but it probably won't help much either.
- @L235 I have been thinking of splitting ArbCom into Public ArbCom and Private ArbCom. I see Public ArbCom as being able to function without the tools as @Worm That Turned advocated, focused more on complex dispute resolution. I see Private ArbCom as high-trust roles with NDAs, privy to WMF and overseeing Public ArbCom. Both ArbComs are elected separately as 15-members bodies, and both will be left with about half the current authority and responsibility. Kenneth Kho (talk) 01:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thryduulf is right; I think Kevin meant that the tracking itself might be a 30 minute a day activity. But it has to happen consistently, and with a high catch rate. It also has to happen on top of our usual Arb work, which for me already averages a good ten hours a week, but can be more than twenty hours in the busy times. And I, like the other arbs, already have a full time job and a life outside Misplaced Pages. I don't like the idea of splitting ArbCom in twain, nor do I think it could be achieved. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, having someone managing the work could really help smooth things out. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- My first thought is that cleanly splitting arbcom would be very difficult. For example what happens if there is an open public case and two-thirds of the way through the evidence phase someone discovers and wishes to submit private evidence? Thryduulf (talk) 02:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, the split won't be entirely clean. I'm thinking Public ArbCom would narrowly remand part of the case to Private ArbCom if it finds that the private evidence is likely to materially affect the outcome. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:34, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- How will public know whether the private evidence will materially affect the outcome without seeing the private evidence? Secondly, how will private arbcom determine whether it materially affects the outcome without reviewing all the public evidence and thus duplicating public arbcom's work (and thus also negating the workload benefits of the split)? What happens if public and private arbcom come to different conclusions about the same public evidence? Thryduulf (talk) 11:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- You raised good points that I did not address. I think that a way to do this would be to follow how Oversighters have the authority to override Admins that they use sparingly. Private ArbCom could have the right to receive any private evidence regarding an ongoing case on Public ArbCom, and Private ArbCom will have discretions to override Public ArbCom remedies without explanation other than something like "per private evidence". Private ArbCom would need to familiarize themselves with the case a bit, but this is mitigated by the fact that they only concerned with the narrow parts. Private ArbCom could have the authority to take the whole Public ArbCom case private if it deems that private evidence affect many parties. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- How will public know whether the private evidence will materially affect the outcome without seeing the private evidence? Secondly, how will private arbcom determine whether it materially affects the outcome without reviewing all the public evidence and thus duplicating public arbcom's work (and thus also negating the workload benefits of the split)? What happens if public and private arbcom come to different conclusions about the same public evidence? Thryduulf (talk) 11:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, the split won't be entirely clean. I'm thinking Public ArbCom would narrowly remand part of the case to Private ArbCom if it finds that the private evidence is likely to materially affect the outcome. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:34, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- 12 candidates for 9 open seats is sufficient. But it hardly suggests we have so many people that we could support 30 people (even presuming some additional people would run under the split). Further, what happens behind the scenes already strains the trust of the community. But at least the community can see the public actions as a reminder of "well this person hasn't lost it completely while on ArbCom". I think it would be much harder to sustain trust under this split. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I honestly like the size of 12-member committee, too many proverbial cooks spoil the proverbial broth. I did think about the trust aspect, as the community has been holding ArbCom under scrutiny, but at the same time I consider that the community has been collegial with Bureaucrats, Checkusers, Oversighters. Private ArbCom would be far less visible, with Public ArbCom likely taking the heat for contentious decisions. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:40, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thryduulf is right; I think Kevin meant that the tracking itself might be a 30 minute a day activity. But it has to happen consistently, and with a high catch rate. It also has to happen on top of our usual Arb work, which for me already averages a good ten hours a week, but can be more than twenty hours in the busy times. And I, like the other arbs, already have a full time job and a life outside Misplaced Pages. I don't like the idea of splitting ArbCom in twain, nor do I think it could be achieved. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am quite confused, I often read arbs saying most of ArbCom work is behind-the-scenes work. But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work? If so, the solution here is that more arbs should simply pull their weight, which Motion 3 helps. I don't think WMF would pay someone to work 30 minutes a day either. Kenneth Kho (talk) 07:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with L235 regarding whether this is all the work and none of the authority: it does not come with all the responsibility that being an Arb comes with either. This role does not need to respond to material questions or concerns about arbitration matters and does not need to read and weigh the voluminous case work to come to a final decision. The c-clerk will need to keep up on emails and will probably need to have an idea of what's going on in public matters, but that was definitely not the bulk of the (stressful?) work of an arbitrator. Izno (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, these are great questions. Responses to your points:
- Well, offering compensation for on-wiki tasks would be breaking new ground for the project. I do wonder though about the possibility of securing former arbitrators for these correspondent clerks' positions. It sounds like all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results. I don't know if we'd have many interested and eligible parties. How many clerks would you think would be necessary? One? Or 3 or 4? Liz 21:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Liz well that's what I thought. I figured that ZenDesk was the winningest solution, until the Foundation made it seem like ZenDesk licenses were printed on gold bars. We did do some back of the envelope calculations, and it is decidedly expensive. Still...I have a hard time believing those ZenDesk licenses really cost more than all that staff time. I think we'll have to do some more convincing of the Foundation on that front, or implement a different solution. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I touched upon the idea of using former arbitrators to do administrative tasks on the arbitration committee talk page, and am also pleasantly surprised to hear there is some interest. I think this approach may be the most expeditious way to put something in place at least for the interim. (On a side note, I urge people not to let the term "c-clerk" catch on. It sounds like stuttering, or someone not good enough to be an A-level clerk. More importantly, it would be quite an obscure jargon term.) isaacl (talk) 23:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.
Something I raised in the functionary discussion was that this doesn't make sense to me. What is the basis for this split here? Izno (talk) 00:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I assumed it was so that the clerks would only see the incoming email and not be privy to the entire commitee's comments on the matter. While all functionaries and arbs sign the same NDA, operating on a need to know basis is not at all uncommon in groups that deal with sensitive information. When I worked for the census we had to clear our debriefing room of literally everything because it was being used the next day by higher-ups from Washington who were visiting. They outranked all of us by several orders of mgnitude, but they had no reason to be looking at the non-anonymized personal data we had lying all over the place.
- Conversely it would spare the clerks from having their inboxes flooded by every single arb comment, which as you know can be quite voluminous. Just Step Sideways 00:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- And it would also prevent them from seeing information related to themselves or something they should actively recuse on. Thryduulf (talk) 01:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- This suggested rationale doesn't hold water: someone with an issue with a c-clerk or where they may need to recuse should just follow the normal process for an issue with an arb: to whit, kicking off arbcom-b for a private discussion. Izno (talk) 01:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I was thinking of material from before they were appointed, e.g. if there was a discussion involving the actions of user:Example in November and they become a c-clerk in December, they shouldn't be able to see the discussion even if the only comments were that the allegations against them are obviously ludicrous. I appreciate I didn't make this clear though. Thryduulf (talk) 02:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- This suggested rationale doesn't hold water: someone with an issue with a c-clerk or where they may need to recuse should just follow the normal process for an issue with an arb: to whit, kicking off arbcom-b for a private discussion. Izno (talk) 01:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Making arbcom-en a "firewall" from the arb deliberations would inhibit the c-clerk from performing the duties listed in the motion. I cannot see how it would be workable for them to remind arbs to do the thing the electorate voluntold them to do if the c-clerk cannot see whether they have done those things (e.g. coming to a conclusion on an appeal), and would add to the overhead of introducing this secretarial position (email comes in, c-clerk forwards to -internal, arbs discussion on -internal, come to conclusion, send an email back to -en, which the c-clerk then actions back to the user on arbcom-en). This suggested rationale also does not hold water to me. Izno (talk) 01:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Apologies – if this was the interpretation, that's bad drafting on my part. The sole intention is that the new correspondence clerks won't see the past arbcom-en archives, which were emails sent to the committee on the understanding that only arbitrators would see those emails. C clerks will see everything that's newly sent on arbcom-en, including all deliberations held on arbcom-en, with the exception of anything that is so sensitive that the committee feels the need to restrict discussion to arbitrators (this should be fairly uncommon but covers the recusal concern above in a similar way as discussions about arbs who recuse sometimes get moved to arbcom-en-b). The C clerks will need to be able to see deliberations to be able to track pending matters and ensure that balls aren't being dropped, which could not happen unless they had access to the discussions – this is a reasonable "need to know" because they are fulfilling a function that is hard to combine with serving as an active arbitrator. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I clearly totally misread your intent there. I.... don't think I like the idea that unelected clerks can see everything the committee is doing. Just Step Sideways 03:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- And it would also prevent them from seeing information related to themselves or something they should actively recuse on. Thryduulf (talk) 01:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- FWIW, I oppose splitting arbcom-en a second time -- Guerillero 10:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding 1.4, I think arbcom-en and -c are good ones for a c-clerk to have access to. -b probably doesn't need access ever, as it's used exclusively for work with recusals attached to it, which should be small enough for ArbCom to manage itself in the addition of a c-clerk. (This comment in private elicited the slight rework L235 made to the motion.) Izno (talk) 06:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- What does this mean – when was the first time? arcticocean ■ 15:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Arcticocean: In 2018, arbcom-l became arbcom-en and the archives are in two different places. -- Guerillero 18:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Appointing one of the sitting arbitrators as "Coordinating Arbitrator" (motion 3) would be my recommended first choice of solution. We had a Coordinating Arbitrator—a carefully chosen title, as opposed to something like "Chair"—for a few years some time ago. It worked well, although it was not a panacea, and I frankly don't recollect why the coordinator role was dropped at some point. If there is a concern about over-reliance or over-burden on any one person, the role could rotate periodically (although I would suggest a six-month term to avoid too much time being spent on the mechanics of selecting someone and transitioning from one coordinator to the next). At any given time there should be at least one person on a 15-member Committee with the time and the skill-set to do the necessary record-keeping and nudging in addition to arbitrating, and this solution would avoid the complications associated with bringing another person onto the mailing list. I think there would be little community appetite for involving a WMF staff member (even one who is or was also an active Wikipedian) in the Committee's business; and if we are going to set the precedent of paying someone to handle tasks formerly handled by volunteers, with all due respect to the importance of ArbCom this is not where I would start. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. Regarding
little community appetite
– that is precisely why we are inviting community input here on this page, as one way to assess how the community feels about the various options. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC) - I also like the idea of an arb or two taking on this role more than another layer of clerks. I'm sure former arbs would be great at it but the committee needs to handle its own internal business. Just Step Sideways 03:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think it is ideal for the arbitration committee to track its own work items and prompt its members for timely action, and may have written this some time ago on-wiki. However... years have passed now, and the arbitration committee elections aren't well-suited to selecting arbitrators with the requisite skill set (even if recruitment efforts were made, the community can only go by the assurance of the candidate regarding the skills they possess and the time they have available). So I think it's worth looking at the option of keeping an arbitrator involved in an emeritus position if they have shown the aptitude and availability to help with administration. This could be an interim approach, until another solution is in place (maybe there can be more targeted recruiting of specific editors who, by their ongoing Misplaced Pages work, have demonstrated availability and tracking ability). isaacl (talk) 18:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2 and 4 don't seem like very good ideas to me. For 2, I think we need to maintain a firm distinction between community and WMF entities, and not do anything that even looks like blending them together. For 4, every time you involve money in something, you multiply your potential problems by a factor of at least ten (and why should that person get paid, when other people who contribute just as much time doing other things don't, and when, for that matter, even the arbs themselves don't?). For 1, I could see that being a good idea, to take some clerical/"grunt work" load off of ArbCom and give them more time for, well, actually arbitrating, and functionaries will all already have signed the NDA. I don't have any problem with 3, but don't see why ArbCom can't just do it if they want to; all the arbs already have access to the information in question so it's not like someone is being approved to see it who can't already. Seraphimblade 01:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
@CaptainEek: Following up on your comments on motion 1, depending on which aspect of the proposed job one wanted to emphasize, you could also consider "amanuensis," "registrar," or "receptionist." (The best on-wiki title in my opinion, though we now are used to it so the irony is lost, will always be "bureaucrat"; I wonder who first came up with that one.) Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Or "cat-herder". --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Following parliamentary tradition, perhaps "whip". (Less whimsically: "recording secretary".) isaacl (talk) 00:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Newyorkbrad:, if memory serves @Keegan: knows who came up with it, and as I recall the story was that they wanted to come up with the most boring, unappealing name they could so not too many people would be applying for it all the time. Just Step Sideways 05:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
So, just to usher in a topic-specific discussion because it has been alluded to many times without specifics being given, what was the unofficial position of ArbCom coordinator like? Who held this role? How did it function? Were other arbitrators happy with it? Was the Coordinator given time off from other arbitrator responsibilities? I assume this happened when an arbitrator just assumed the role but did it have a more formal origin? Did it end because no one wanted to pick up the responsibility? Questions, questions. Liz 06:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I cannot speak for anything but my term. I performed this role for about 1.5 years of the 2 I was on the committee. To borrow an email I sent not long before I stepped off that touches on the topics in this whole set of motions (yes, this discussion isn't new):
- Daily, ~20 minutes: went into the list software and tagged the day's incoming new email chains with a label (think "upe", "duplicate", etc).
- Daily, ~10 minutes: took care of any filtered emails on the list (spam and not-spam).
- Monthly, 1-2 hours: trawled the specific categories of tags since the beginning of the month to add to an arbwiki page for tracking for "needs to get done". Did the inverse also (removed stuff from tracking that seemed either Done or Stale).
- Monthly, 15 minutes to prep: sent an email with a direct list of the open appeals and a reminder about the "needs doing" stuff (and a few months I highlighted a topic or two that were easy wins). This built off the daily work in a way that would be a long time if it were all done monthly instead of daily.
- I was also an appeals focused admin, which had further overhead here that I would probably put in the responsibility of this kind of arb. Other types of arbs probably had similar things they would have wanted to do this direction but I saw very little of such. Daily for this effort, probably another 15 minutes or so:
- I copy-pasted appeal metadata from new appeals email to arbwiki
- Started countdown timers for appeals appearing to be at consensus
- Sent "easy" boilerplate emails e.g. "we got this appeal, we may be in touch" or "no way Jose you already appealed a month ago"
- Sent results for the easy appeals post-countdown timer and filled in relevant metadata (easy appeals here usually translated to "declined" since this was the quick-n-easy daily work frame, not the long-or-hard daily work frame)
- (End extract from referenced email.) This second set is now probably a much-much lighter workload with the shedding of most CU appeals this year (which was 70% of the appeals by count during my term), and I can't say how much of this second group would be in the set of duties depending on which motion is decided above (or if even none of the motions are favored by the committee - you can see I've advocated for privately documenting the efforts of coordinating arbs rather than publicly documenting them regarding 3, and it wouldn't take much to get me to advocate against 2 and 4, I just know others can come to the right-ish conclusion on those two already; I'm pretty neutral on 1).
- Based on the feedback I got as I was going out the door, it was appreciated. I did see some feedback that this version of the role was insufficiently personal to each arb. The tradeoff for doing something more personalized to each other arb is either time or software (i.e. money). I did sometimes occasionally call out when other members had not yet chimed in on discussions. That was ad hoc and mostly focused on onwiki matters (case votes particularly), but occasionally I had to name names when doing appeals work because the arbs getting to the appeal first were split. In general the rest of the committee didn't name names (which touches on some discussion above). I think some arbs appreciated seeing their name in an email when they were needed.
- I was provided no formal relief from other matters. But as I discussed with one arb during one of the stressful cases of the term, I did provide relief informally for the duration of that case to that person for the stuff I was interested in, so I assume that either I in fact had no relief from other matters, or that I had relief but didn't know it (and just didn't ask for anyone else to do it - since I like to think I had it well enough in hand). :-) The committee is a team effort and not everyone on the team has the same skills, desire, or time to see to all other matters. (The probing above about arbs being insufficiently active is a worthwhile probe, to be certain.) To go further though, I definitely volunteered to do this work. Was it necessary work? I think so. I do not know what would have happened if I had not been doing it. (We managed to hit only one public snag related to timeliness during my term, which I count as a win; opinions may differ.)
- There is no formal origin to the role that I know of. Someone else with longer committee-memory would have to answer whether all/recent committees have had this type, and who they were, and why if not.
- I don't know how much of what I did lines up with what L235 had in mind proposing these motions. I do not think the work I did covers everything listed in the motions laid out. (I don't particularly need clarification on the point - it's a matter that will fall out in post-motion discussion.) Izno (talk) 08:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- The original announcement of the Coordinating Arbitrator position was here. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Archive zero: I love it! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Interestingly, that announcement also repeated the announcement at the top of the archive page that a departing arbitrator continued to assist the committee by co-ordinating the mailing list: acknowledging incoming emails and responding to senders with questions about them, and tracking issues to ensure they are resolved. So both a co-ordinator (plus a deputy!) and an arbitrator emeritus. isaacl (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
former arbitrator will continue to coordinate the ArbCom mailing list.
was probably a statement along the lines of "knows how to deal with Mailman". And I think you're getting that role mixed up with the actual person doing the work management:the Arbitration Committee has decided to appoint one of its sitting arbitrators to act as coordinator
(emphasis mine). Izno (talk) 23:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)- Obviously I have no personal knowledge of what ended up happening. I just listed the responsibilities as described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 0 § Improving ArbCom co-ordination. I'm not sure what I'm getting mixed up; all I said is that a co-ordinator and deputy were appointed, and that a former arbitrator was said to be co-ordinating the mailing list. It's certainly possible the split of duties changed from the first post in the archive. isaacl (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, I see that now. Izno (talk) 00:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Obviously I have no personal knowledge of what ended up happening. I just listed the responsibilities as described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 0 § Improving ArbCom co-ordination. I'm not sure what I'm getting mixed up; all I said is that a co-ordinator and deputy were appointed, and that a former arbitrator was said to be co-ordinating the mailing list. It's certainly possible the split of duties changed from the first post in the archive. isaacl (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think I agree with Izno regarding the coordinating arbitrator role. There's no problem letting the community that the role exists, but I don't think it's necessary for the role's responsibilities to be part of the public-facing guarantees being made to the community. If the role needs to expand, shrink, split into multiple roles, or otherwise change, the committee should feel free to just do it as needed. The committee has the flexibility to organize itself as it best sees fit. isaacl (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is the right approach. It doesn't need to be advertised who is coordinating activity on the mailing list, it just needs to get done. If it takes two people, fine, if they do it for six months and say they want out of the role, ask somebody else to do it. And so on. Just Step Sideways 23:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- For instance, I don't think it's necessary to codify whether or not the coordinating arbitrator role is permanent. Just put a task on the schedule to review how the role is working out in nine months, and then modify the procedure accordingly as desired. isaacl (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- One exception: the first bullet point regarding responding to communications and assigning a tracking identifier does involve the committee's interactions with the community. I feel, though, that for flexibility these guarantees can be made without codifying who does them, from the community's point of view. (It's fine of course to make them part of the coordinating arbitrator's tasks.) isaacl (talk) 23:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- The original announcement of the Coordinating Arbitrator position was here. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Izno, this actually sounds like a helluva lot of work, maybe not minute-wise but mental, keeping track of everything so requests don't fall through the cracks. I think anyone assuming this role should get a break from, say, drafting ARBCOM cases if nothing else. Liz 03:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- It might be a lot of work, but it wasn't the bulk of the work, even for the work that I was doing. There was a lot more steps to being the appeal-focused admin above. Izno (talk) 04:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- You made me laugh, Liz. That sounds like my normal start-of-day routine, to be accompanied by a cup of tea and, perhaps, a small breakfast. I'd expect most arbitrators to be reading the mail on a daily basis, unless they are inactive for some reason; the difference here is the tagging/flagging of messages and clearing the filters, which probably adds about 10-12 minutes. I'll simply say that any arb who isn't prepared to spend 30-45 minutes/day reading emails probably shouldn't be an arb. That's certainly a key part of the role. Risker (talk) 04:43, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- +1. In my thoughts to potential candidates I said an hour a day for emails but that included far more appeals than the committee gets now. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:47, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Never mind reading emails, the bulk of my private ArbCom time was spent on processing them: doing checks, reporting results, and otherwise responding to other work. You can get away with just reading internal emails, but it's going to surprise your fellow arbs if you don't pipe up with some rational thought when you see the committee thinking about something personally objectionable and the first time they hear about it is when motions have been posted and are waiting for votes. Izno (talk) 06:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Right now, I check my email account about once a week. I guess that will change if I'm elected to the committee. It would have helped to hear all of these details before the election. Liz 08:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- My hour included time to respond to emails, though I also note you're not going particularly deep on anything with that time (at least when ArbCom had more appeals). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:26, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
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Entropyandvodka
No action. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Entropyandvodka
Between Oct 6 and 7th, 2023, this user made over 500 edits changing short descriptions. example,contribs log during the time period A majority of the edits were on Oct 6th, about 325 by my very rough count. They stopped their edit chain a few minutes after getting EC on the 6th, then did a couple hundred more on the 7th. Granted at 16h00, final edit of the day at 16h03 They had never made this kind of edit before, and they've only made a few edits of this type ever since, all on one P-I article this spring. They now have over 1,400 edits. Since then they have focused almost entirely on the PIA space, but have dedicated some time to the invasion of Ukraine. In the Russian invasion space, they've concerned themselves with making sure that a pro-Russian narrative is represented. They appear in Billedmammal (talk · contribs)'s ARBPIA statistics broadsheet, which shows their edits as being 100% in PIA for the remainder of 2023 and 75% PIA for 2024. I sought input from SFR before making this report, because I see deeper implications from a gaming run for PIA on Oct 6th 2023. I have not interacted with this user, beyond notifying them of this report.
Re: Liz's comment, I was unsure whether this was stale given that their further edits would put them over EC by now, though likely not without counting the PIA-related edits. This was why I asked SFR on his talk page first, who advised me that there likely wasn't a stale period for permission gaming. I haven't tried to assess recent content or conduct beyond a brief look at the Russia/Ukraine related edits. Safrolic (talk) 21:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning EntropyandvodkaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by EntropyandvodkaStatement by (username)Result concerning Entropyandvodka
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xDanielx
xDanielx is subject to the zero revert rule on content within the scope of WP:ARBPIA. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning xDanielx
Material was originally added to the infobox on 17 October and Removed by reported editor on 4 Dec, 5 Dec 7 Dec and 8 December with the last revert coming despite an explicit warning.
Experienced ex admin who should know better.
Discussion concerning xDanielXStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by xDanielXI don't think the "explicit warning" by Selfstudier ( Under the conventional view that removing old content generally doesn't constitute a revert, I made two reverts here, with a lot of discussion in between (here, here, here, and this older discussion). My second revert was undoing what seemed like a I normally revert very selectively - looking at my past 500 edits, there are only five reverts (at least obvious ones), with only these two being controversial. If I was a bit aggressive here, it was because the material violated our policies in a particularly blatant and severe manner. The estimate in question falls under WP:SCHOLARSHIP since it's based on a novel methodology, and it fails that standard due to a lack of vetting by the relevant scholarly community (public health). The closest we have is this paper by an anthropologist, which includes the estimate but doesn't discuss whether the methodology is valid. The paper also appears to have no citations, and the group that published it doesn't appear to have any real scholarly vetting process. The claim is also a highly WP:EXTRAORDINARY one. Health officials reported 38 starvations (as of Sep 16), which is quite different from the 62,413 (as of Sep 30) estimate. To me pushing to include such an extraordinary claim in wikivoice, with sources that clearly fall short of our relevant policies, indicates either POV pushing or a competence issue. — xDanielx /C\ 18:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
@Valereee: I would argue that EW enforcement should account for factors like scale, engagement in discussions, timing, policy support, consensus, and broader patterns of user behavior.
If I could rewind, I would at least give it extra time to make sure that the discussion had settled, and maybe leave it to someone else to enact the result. However, I think if this were to be considered actionable edit warring, then nearly all active editors in the topic area would be guilty of it. Even in this same dispute, a different user just made their second revert, with less engagement and so on. I would argue that the single revert with no explanation might actually be the most problematic EW here, although I don't believe there's a consensus on whether single reverts are technically considered EW (there have been some inconclusive discussions on that). — xDanielx /C\ 17:42, 9 December 2024 (UTC) @Ealdgyth: understood, though I think you mean EW broadly rather than 1RR? — xDanielx /C\ 19:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC) I'm receiving the message that the factors I mentioned aren't good enough, but would still appreciate input on what acceptable participation in an edit war could look like. Maybe the answer is that there is none, but that would seem to depart from convention as I understood it, and possibly lead to a lot more formal RfCs. — xDanielx /C\ 19:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC) @Valereee: understood, but I think a strict/literal reading of EW would capture a lot of activity that's accepted in practice. It seems like in the absence of brightline violations, more subtle distinctions are drawn between acceptable and unacceptable forms of EW. I thought that I was on the right side of this distinction, per my remarks above, but maybe my understanding of it was off base. I can understand a warning here, but it would be more effective with more specific guidance on what to avoid. — xDanielx /C\ 22:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
@Valereee:: I was ideally hoping for some clarifications, i.e.
If this needs to be wrapped up soon, I can commit to following WP:EW to the letter to be safe, unless or until a different line is clarified. I might start a WT:EW discussion afterward to clarify whether there's community support for enforcing WP:EW the letter. — xDanielx /C\ 01:48, 18 December 2024 (UTC) I'm a bit puzzled by the admin discussion. It seems like there are two concerns,
I think the implied message I'm getting is along the lines of "it's best to follow EW to the letter, irrespective of any other factors", which would be a clear line that I can follow. It's just frustrating that this hasn't been spelled out very clearly, and my questions seem to have been interpreted as something other than sincere requests for such guidance. — xDanielx /C\ 00:36, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by M.Bitton
The bottom line is that xDanielx is edit warring against multiple editors who disagree with them for various reasons. M.Bitton (talk) 02:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
@Theleekycauldron: Done. What about their aspersions casting and assumption of bad faith? M.Bitton (talk) 16:54, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by fivebyI'm surprised that Selfstudier is making this report. If you're unable here to look at the article content and sources then this should go straight to the arbcom case as evidence. fiveby(zero) 03:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning xDanielX
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M.Bitton
M.Bitton is warned against casting aspersions and reminded to abide by WP:CIVIL. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:35, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning M.Bitton
I'll limit this to WP:CIVIL related issues for now, since they're easiest to evaluate with minimal context.
I'm not aware of CTOP sanctions. The block log seems to show four blocks, but they're not that recent and I'm not sure how relevant they are.
Another 15 diffs were (rightfully) removed by an admin for exceeding the diff limit as well as falling outside PIA scope; just mentioning for transparency. They might be relevant on a different forum but admittedly not here. — xDanielx /C\ 16:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC) @Theleekycauldron: I planned to file something after the "garbage" comments (about BobFromBrockley) on Talk:Al-Manar. I reconsidered after being surprised by M.Bitton's diplomatic compromise there. Admittedly M.Bitton's comments in the thread above prompted me to reconsider again, but that wasn't about the fact that I might receive a warning there (irrespective of M.Bitton's participation); it was just about me personally being on the receiving end of some personal attacks. I don't really follow why me being emotionally affected by the conduct would affect the legitimacy of the report. Most of the incivility was directed at other users, and letting this conduct continue wouldn't seem fair to them. — xDanielx /C\ 16:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning M.BittonStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by M.BittonNot content with edit warring, assuming bad faith and casting aspersions (see #xDanielx), they now decided to go even lower and file a retaliatory report. M.Bitton (talk) 09:56, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning M.Bitton
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Ethiopian Epic
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Ethiopian Epic
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Tinynanorobots (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Ethiopian Epic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- November 14th created during the Yasuke case and went active when it ended. First 11 edits were to Government of Japan. In one case three edits were used to write one sentence.
- November 12 Manually reverted the lead back to how it was in September.
- November 16 Falsely Claimed cited material was OR. (G
- November 24 Falsely Claimed cited material was unsourced
- November 24 It took an ANI report to get him to use the article talk page. His defense was accusations and denial.
- November 23 He reverted to a version that went against consensus established on the talk page and contained a falsely sourced quote.
- November 25 Engages in sealioning
- November 29 Removes a well sourced line from Yasuke as well as reverted an edit that was the result of BRD. He has now started disputes with me on all three Yasuke related articles.
- November 30 starts disputing a new section of
- December 2 Brought again to ANI, he claims that I didn't get consensus for changes, even though I had discussed them on talk prior to making them.
- December 4 He keeps mentioning ONUS, and asking me to discuss it, in response to me discussing.
- December 9 Used a non-controversial revert to hide his edit warring.
- December 11 did the same thing on List of foreign-born samurai in Japan.
- December 11 He also repeatedly complains that he doesn't like the definition because it is vague and claims that his preferred version is "status quo"
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- [
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on December 1 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I am not sure if this is actually a AE matter, but was told to go here by multiple admins. The biggest issue is the Editing against consensus on accompanied by bludgeoning. However, there are signs of bad faith editing on all three pages where I have interacted with EE. It could also be a CIR issue or it could be some sort of harassment. I don't know. I just know that EE first avoided providing clear reasons for reverting edits and has been trying to engage in Status Quo Stonewalling. He keeps citing Onus or Burden and asks me not to make a change until the discussion is over. Often, this doesn't make sense in context, because the change was in place. He has made false claims about sources and what they say. His editing on Yasuke is not so much a problem as the discussion which comes across as gaslighting.
- @User:Red-tailed hawk, I am not an expert on proxies or socks. All the IPs have only posted on the one article and have advocated an odd definition for samurai, that doesn't apply to the article. All except the first one have just reverted. It is possible that this is just laziness, or lack of confidence in writing skills etc. After all, the false citation was added by another user and was just kept. I found the latest one the most suspect, in part because of it first reverting to the incorrect definition, before restoring most of the text and second because of falsely citing policy. I am not sure if they are proxies, but I hoped that someone here would have the expertise to know. I don't think the proxy evidence is the most important. EE is either acting in bad faith or has CIR problems. The later is possible, because he thanked City of Silver during ANI, although City of Silver has been the harshest critic of EE's behaviour towards me.
- I think there should be some important context to the quote:
"those who serve in close attendance to the nobility"
. The quote can be found in several books, on Samurai it is sourced to an article published in Black Belt Magazine in the 80s by William Scott Wilson, where he describes the origin of the word samurai. He is describing the early phases of its meaning in that quote, before it became to have martial connotations. It also refers to the time before 900. The earliest foreign samurai on the list was in the late 1500s. It also doesn't apply to most of the persons on the list. Finally, it is not mentioned in Vaporis's book, which EE keeps adding as the source. He hasn't even made the effort to copy the citation from Samurai.
Not only did I have a dispute with Symphony Regalia about samurai being "retainers to lords", but also on Yasuke about "As a samurai" and on List of Foreign-born Samurai in Japan EE made the same reverts as SR. EE had with his first edit in all three articles continued a dispute that I had already had with SR.
- @User:Ethiopian Epic I actually don't have a problem with you discussing things. Your talk page posts aren't really discussion though. Your main argument on all three pages has been a shifting of the burden of proof. You don't really discuss content and continually ask me not to make changes without discussing first, and then make changes yourself. I understand that your position is that your preferred version is the status quo. However, my edits regarding the definition on List of Foreign-born samurai in Japan , were discussed and consensus was clearly gotten. Similarly, my edits on Yasuke were discussed, and even though I didn't use the exact same version as Gitz said, Gitz had suggested using warrior instead of bushi, so I used samurai, because I thought it would be less controversial.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Ethiopian Epic
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Ethiopian Epic
This is clear retaliatory filing because I recently didn't agree with Tinynanorobot's edits against RFC consensus, and because I made talk page sections on some recent edits.
@Eronymous That's not true and you are a very obvious alt account with only 26 edits. No one gave you a notification of this discussion and it's not on the Yasuke talk page. This suggests you are the sock puppet of someone here. Your post is also misleading and incorrect it wasn't an insertion. The line you are talking about in Samurai has been there for over 10 years and is normal. I know because I've read it before. Here is a version from 2017 that still has it. I don't understand why you are misrepresenting edits and using an alt account.
@Red-tailed hawk I think he is just fishing. That's why he removed his IP claims. Even his other diffs are just mislabeled regular behavior. It's amusing because Eronymous is the likely alt of Tinynanorobots or someone posting here. I think the way Tinynanorobots edits against clear consensus, skips discussion, and then files frivolous ANI/AE reports with misleading narrative like above is disruptive. Discussion is an easy solution and benefits everyone. I hope he will respect RFC consensus.
Statement by Relm
I am largely unfamiliar with the account in question, but I do frequently check Yasuke. I believe that EthiopianEpic has displayed a clear slant and battleground mindset in their editing in regards to the topic of Yasuke, but that their conduct on the Yasuke page itself so far has generally been in the ballpark of good faith edits. The revert on December 9th was justified, and their topic on November 29th is well within bounds (though I acknowledge that the background of their prior disputes on other pages with Tinynanorobots shows it may be edit warring) given that the two things being reverted was a change that seemed to skirt the prior RFC with agreement being given in a very non-direct way, and the other portion being an addition which had not been discussed on the talk page prior to its implementation (though previous discussions ered on the side of not including it). I am not accusing Tinynanorobots of any misconduct in any part of that either.
What I will note is that in addition to the sockpuppet IP allegations made by Tinynanorobots, I wanted to lodge that the posting style of EthiopianEpic, as well as their knowledge of much of the previous discussions on the page deep in the archive, led me to suspect that they were an alt of User:Symphony_Regalia. I never found anything conclusive. Relm (talk) 14:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Simonm223
These two editors have been tangling at WP:AN/I repeatedly. Last time they came there I said that this would likely continue until a third party intervened. And then the thread got archived with no action (see AN/I thread here) so I'm not surprised that the two of them are still tangling. There is evidence that both editors have engaged in a slow-motion edit war. Both have claimed the other is editing against consensus. Here I will say that it appears TinyNanoRobots is more correct than Ethiopian Epic. Furthermore, while neither editors' comportment has been stellar, as other editors have pointed out, it appears more that EE is following TNR about and giving them a hard time than the alternate. . In the linked AN/I case (above) you'll note EE attempted a boomerang on TNR and was not well-received for the effort.
Frankly my view is that both editors are not editing to the best standards of Misplaced Pages but there is definitely a more disruptive member of this duo and that is Ethiopian Epic. I think it would probably cut down on the noise considerably if they were encouraged to find somewhere to edit which was not a CTOP subject and if they were encouraged to leave TNR alone. Simonm223 (talk) 18:05, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Eronymous
Similar to Relm I check on the Yasuke page every so often, and it seems very likely given the evidence that User:Ethiopian Epic is an alt of User:Symphony_Regalia created to evade his recent ArbCom sanctions, having started editing the day prior to the Yasuke case closure. Of note to this is the last edit of Symphony_Regalia on Samurai was him attempting to insert the line "who served as retainers to lords (including daimyo)" - curiously enough, Ethiopian Epic's first edit on Samurai (and first large edit, having just prior made 11 minor ones in a short timeframe to reach autoconfirmed status) is him attempting to insert the same controversial line that was reverted before.
Symphony_Regalia has a history of utilising socks to edit Yasuke/Samurai related topics and is indefinitely blocked from the .jp wiki for extensive sockpuppetry (plus multiple suspected IPs) for this.
Prior to being sanctioned Symphony Regalia frequently got into exactly the same arguments concerning wording/source material with User:Tinynanorobots that Ethiopian Epic is now. One could assume based on their relationship that he is aggrieved that Tinynanorobots was not sanctioned by ArbCom during the case and is now continuously feuding with him to change that through edit warring and multiple administrator incidents/arbitration requests in the past few weeks. Eronymous (talk) 22:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Nil Einne
I was ?one of the editors who suggested Tinynanorobots consider ARE in the future. I did this mostly because after three threads on ANI with no result, I felt a change of venue might be more productive especially since the more structured nature of ARE, as well as a likely greater concern over low level of misconduct meant that some outcome was more likely. (For clarity, when I suggested this I did feel nothing would happen from the third ANI thread but in any case my advice being taken onboard would likely mean the third thread had no result.) I did try to make clear that I wasn't saying there was definitely a problem requiring sanction and also it was possible Tinynanorobots might themselves end up sanctioned. Since a topic ban on both is being considered, I might have been right in a way. If a topic ban results, I'd like to suggest admins considered some guidance beyond broadly constructed on how any topic ban would apply. While the entirety of the Yasuke article and the list of foreign born samurai stuff seem clear enough, one concern I've had at ANI is how to handle the editing at Samurai and its talk page. A lot of the recent stuff involving these editors seems to relate to the definition of samurai. AFAIK, this is generally been a big part of the dispute of Yasuke (he can/can't be a samurai because it means A which was/wasn't true about him). Nil Einne (talk) 12:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning Ethiopian Epic
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I've never been very impressed with retaliatory filings, and the one below is no exception. I will also note that I'm never too impressed with "must be a sock" type accusations—either file at SPI or don't. In this case, though, I think Yasuke would be better off if neither of these two were participating there. Seraphimblade 19:33, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- Red-tailed hawk, what are your thoughts after the responses to you? Seraphimblade 16:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think that it would be declined if it were an WP:SPI report and the editor should be mindful not to throw sock accusations around willy-nilly going forward. But I typically don't see any sort of sanction imposed when someone makes a bad SPI report, particularly if they're newer or aren't quite clueful yet. So I don't see much to do on that front other than tell them that we need more specific evidence of socking when reports are made than merely shared interest, particularly when the IPs are scattered across the world. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:24, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm still inclined to topic ban both these editors from Yasuke, but would be interested in hearing more thoughts on that if anyone has them. Seraphimblade 07:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think that it would be declined if it were an WP:SPI report and the editor should be mindful not to throw sock accusations around willy-nilly going forward. But I typically don't see any sort of sanction imposed when someone makes a bad SPI report, particularly if they're newer or aren't quite clueful yet. So I don't see much to do on that front other than tell them that we need more specific evidence of socking when reports are made than merely shared interest, particularly when the IPs are scattered across the world. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:24, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- Red-tailed hawk, what are your thoughts after the responses to you? Seraphimblade 16:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I also generally don't like "might-be-a-sock"-style accusations; when we are accusing someone of sockpuppetry by logged out editing we typically need evidence to substantiate it rather than just floating the possibility in a flimsy way. Filer has provided several diffs above as possible socks, but each of those IPs geolocates to a different country (Germany, Norway, and Argentina respectively) and I don't see evidence that any of those IPs are proxies.@Tinynanorobots: Can you explain what led you to note the IP edits? Is it merely shared interest and viewpoint, or is there something more?— Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:01, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at this .... mess... first, I'm not sure what actually was against the ArbCom decision - I don't see a 1RR violation being alleged, and the rest really appears to me to be "throw stuff at the wall and see if it sticks". But, like Seraphimblade, I'm not impressed with either of these editors actual conduct here or in general. I could be brought around to supporting a topic ban for both of these editors in the interests of clearing up the whole topic area. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:33, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Tinynanorobots: you are well above the 500 word limit. Please request an extension before adding anything more. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Tinynanorobots
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Tinynanorobots
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- EEpic (talk) 19:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Tinynanorobots (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 09:21, 14 November 2024. Tinynanorobots removes
As a samurai
from the lead text and replaces it withsignifying bushi status
against RFC consensus (There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification
). - 17:12, 15 November 2024. Tinynanorobots removes
who served as a samurai
from the lead text and addswho became a bushi or samurai
against RFC consensus (There exists a consensus against presenting Yasuke's samurai status as the object of debate
). - 12:43, 20 November 2024. On List of Foreign-born Samurai, Tinynanorobots removes the longstanding definition and adds
This list includes persons who ... may not have been considered a samurai
against RFC consensus (There exists a consensus against presenting Yasuke's samurai status as the object of debate
). - 07:48, 23 November 2024. Tinynanorobots reverts to remove
As a samurai
in the Yasuke article after Gitz6666 opposes at , again ignoring WP:ONUS. - 03:13, 4 December 2024. I restore and start a talk page discussion so that consensus can be formed.
- 14:10, 6 December 2024 . Tinynanorobots, when consensus fails to form for his position, becomes uncivil and engages in a sarcastic personal attack
What you are saying doesn't make sense. Perhaps there is a language issue here. Maybe your native language handles the future differently than English?
- 14:22, 11 December 2024. Tinynanorobots removes "As a samurai" again, ignoring WP:ONUS and BRD even though no consensus has formed for his position, and no consensus has formed to change existing consensus.
- 08:37, 6 December 2024. Tinynanorobots explains their reasons,
I don't know if samurai is the right term
which is against consensus. - 07:27, 28 November 2024. POV-pushing - With no edit summary Tinynanorobots tag bombs by adding
Slavery in Japan
.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 23:06, 13 November 2024.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Tinynanorobots frequently edits against consensus, restores his edits when others revert, doesn't wait for consensus, and engages in feuding behavior. He seems to think WP:BRD or WP:ONUS don't apply to him which is disruptive, and I don't know why.
Unaccounted removals of sources 23:44, 14 September 2024 - Warning from other editor about repeated removal of content when multiple users are objecting.
AGF 12:21, 15 September 2024 - Warning from yet another editor about not assuming good faith and making personal attacks
It seems to be chronic which suggests behavior problems. Tinynanorobots also frequently fails to assume good faith in others. I don't know why as I don't have any issues with him.
Their preferred edit for Yasuke against the RFC consensus is now still in the lead section.
@Relm Sorry for the confusion. I think we talking about different edits, so I'll adjust that part. I am referring to Tinynanorobot's repeated removal of As a samurai
against RFC consensus, which states There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification
.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Tinynanorobots
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Tinynanorobots
The accusations made by EE are so misleading as to be evidence against him. Most of what he is discussing is in reference to a successful BRD. I actually discussed the bold edit first on the talk, but didn't get much of a response. I decided a bold edit would get more feedback. The edits were reverted and then discussed. Gitz's main problem was OR, not a RfC violation. This was because he didn't read the cited source. Anyway, since Atkin says "signifying bushi status", I have no objection to restoring this text.
I never used any sarcasm, I know that some languages handle how they talk about time differently. It seems reasonable that a translation error could be the reason for EE asking me not to change the article, althoug my edit had already been restored by someone else and at the same time asking me to discuss that I had already discussed and was already discussing. I am disappointed that EE didn't point out that he felt attacked, so that I could apologize.
This was written in response to another user, and the whole thought is I don't know if samurai is the right term. It is the term a fair amount of sources use, and the one that the RfC says should be used. It is also consistent with common usage in reference to other historical figures.
In fact earlier in that post I said this: I am not qualified to say whither or not Yasuke having a house meant that he was a samurai
This is blatantly taking a quote out of context in order to prejudice the Admins against me.
- @User:Ealdgyth I filed here, because the last time I filed at ANI it was suggested that I bring things here if things continue by an Admin. I try to follow advice, although I keep getting conflicting signals from Admins. I am most concerned that you find my work on Samurai and List of Foreign-born Samurai in Japan not adding anything helpful. My suggestion to rewrite the way samurai was defined on the List in order to reduce OR and bring it in line with WP:LSC was meant with unanimous approval by those who responded. Samurai is a high importance article that has tags on it from years back, is unorganized and contains outdated information. I am not the best writer, but I have gotten some books, and am pretty much the only one working on it.
Statement by Relm
I am the editor alluded to and quoted as 'protesting' Tinynanorobots edit. When I originally made that topic, I was fixing a different edit which left the first sentence as a grammatically incomplete sentence. When I looked at it in the editing view, one of the quotes in the citation beforehand was quoting Atkins Vera, and I mistook this for the opening quote having been changed. When I closed the editing menu I saw 'signifying samurai status' in the second paragraph and confused the two for each other as I had not noticed the addition of the latter phrase a little under a month ago. I realized my mistake almost immediately after I posted the new topic, and made this (1) edit to clarify my mistake while also attempting to instead direct the topic towards making sure that the edit recieved sufficient assent from Gitz (it did) and to talk about improvements that could be made to the opening sentence. I further clarified and made clear that I was not accusing Tinynanorobots of having done anything wrong in a later response (2).
Though many of their earlier edits on the page may show some issues, as they grew more familiar with the past discussions I believe that Tinynanorobots has made valuable contributions to the page in good faith. Relm (talk) 03:21, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Barkeep49
- @Ealdgyth I think this misinterprets the ArbCom decision. So Yakuse is a contentious topic and it has a 1RR restriction, in the same way as say PIA. As in PIA administrators can sanction behavior that violates the contentious topics procedures besides 1RR. Beyond that, editing against the RFC is a finding of fact from the case. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Tinynanorobots
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- As above, I'm failing to see what exactly is against the ArbCom case rulings - I don't see a 1RR violation. But also as above, I'm coming to the view that neither of these editors are adding anything helpful to the topic area and am leaning towards a topic ban for both. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Selfstudier
No evidence of misconduct was presented. Filer Allthemilescombined1 is informally warned against frivolous filings. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 02:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
}
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Selfstudier
Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 5
On I/P topics, my edits on numerous occasions have been reverted almost immediately, by Selfstudier and their fellow editors who seem to be always hanging around I/P, and "owning" the topic area. They are creating a hostile editing environment and are violating NPOV. Concerns for possible WP:CIVIL and WP:TENDENTIOUS violations:
Concerns for possible WP:GAME and WP:NOT ADVOCACY violations:
Concerns for possible WP:ASPERSIONS violations:
Concerns for possible WP:TAG TEAM violations:
Selected examples of my edits which were reverted within hours or minutes (this list is far from comprehensive):
In summary, I have experienced a pattern of consistent, and what appears to be organized, intimidation from a small group of editors.
Discussion concerning SelfstudierStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SelfstudierStatement by Sean.hoylandI see I've been mentioned but not pinged. That's nice. I encourage anyone to look at the diffs and the context. Why are there editors in the topic area apparently ignoring WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NOTADVOCACY? It's a mystery. It is, and has always been, one of the root causes of instability in the topic area and wastes so much time. Assigning a cost to advocacy might reduce it. Either way, it needs to be actively suppressed by enforcement of the WP:NOT policy. It's a rule, not an aspiration. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by Butterscotch BelugaI didn't say it was "irrelevant to pro-Palestine protests" as a whole. The edit I reverted was specifically at 2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses, so as I said, the "Incident did not occur at a university campus so is outside the scope of this article". We have other articles like Israel–Hamas war protests & more specifically Israel–Hamas war protests in the United States that are more in scope of your proposed edit. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 20:52, 13 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by HuldraI wish the filer would have wiki-linked names, then you would easily have seen that Bernard-Henri Lévy "is not an expert on Zionism or colonialism”, or that Adam Kirsch “does not appear to be an expert in Zionism or Settler colonial studies but is apparently well known for a pro Israel viewpoint", Huldra (talk) 22:11, 13 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by RolandRI too have been mentioned above, and complained about, but not been notified. If this is not a breach of Misplaced Pages regulations, then it ought to be. As for the substance, I see that I am accused of describing Norman H. Finkelstein as a "non-notable children’s writer". Norman H. Finkelstein was indeed a children's writer, as described in most reports and obituaries. At the time of the original edit and my revert, he was not considered sufficiently notable to merit a Misplaced Pages article; it was only a week later that the OP created an article, of which they have effectively been the only editor. So I stand by my characterisation, which is an accurate and objective description of the author. Further, I was concerned that a casual reader might be led to confuse this writer with the highly significant writer Norman Finkelstein; in fact, I made my edit after AlsoWukai had made this mistake and linked the cited author to the genuinely notable person. This whole report, and the sneaky complaints about me and other editors, is entirely worthless and should be thrown out. RolandR (talk) 22:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000This edit by OP is illustrative. It is just a presentation of personal belief with weak or irrelevant sources. I don't see evidence of an ability to contribute usefully. Zero 00:31, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by SameboatIt is clear that the filer has failed to understand my message, which was a warning about repeated violations of the NotForum policy. Instead, they have misinterpreted my actions, as well as those of others, as part of a coordinated "tag team." I raised my concerns on User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish after the filer's edit on the UNRWA article regarding its controversy, which failed to properly attribute the information to its source—the Israeli government. This filing is a complete waste of time, and serious sanctions should be imposed on the filer if similar issues occur again in the future. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 02:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by AlsoWukaiContrary to the filer's complaint, I never made an edit "removing the disappearance of the ANC's $31 million debt when South Africa accused Israel of genocide." I can only conclude that the filer misread the edit history. AlsoWukai (talk) 20:55, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by ValereeeeThe diff allthemiles links to above is me responding to their post (in which they complained about a mildly sarcastic remark by another editor) where they said, "If respectful discussion is not possible, administrative involvement will be needed." I've been trying to keep up at that article talk, so I responded giving them my take on it. I tried to keep engaging, trying to help them understand the challenges for less experienced editors trying to work in the topic, offering advice on how they could get up to speed at that particular article, even offering to continue the discussion at their talk or mine. Valereee (talk) 14:29, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning Selfstudier
|
Rasteem
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Rasteem
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- NXcrypto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:06, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Rasteem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBIPA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 23:21 12 December 2024 - removed wikilink of an Indian railway station thus violating his topic ban from India and Pakistan.
This violation comes after he was already warned for his first violation of the topic ban.
Upon a closer look into his recent contribution, I found that he is simply WP:GAMING the system by creating articles like Arjan Lake which is overall only 5,400 bytes but he made nearly 50 edits here. This is clearly being done by Rasteem for passing the 500 edits mark to get his topic ban overturned.
I recommend increasing the topic ban to indefinite duration. Nxcrypto Message 03:06, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- "topic banned from the subject of India and Pakistan, broadly construed, until both six months have elapsed and they have made 500 edits after being notified of this sanction."
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- I agree that there are genuine CIR issues with Rasteem, for example while this ARE report is in progress they created Javan Lake, which has promotional statements like: "The lake's stunning caluts, majestic desert topographies, and serene lakes produce a shifting destination. Its unique charm attracts a wide range of guests, from adventure contenders to nature suckers and beyond". Nxcrypto Message 03:26, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Rasteem
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Rasteem
This approach seems to be a coordinated attack to abandon me from Misplaced Pages indefinitely. Indeed, after my ban for 6 months. I was banned on 6 December, and in just 7 days, this report is literally an attempt to make me leave Misplaced Pages.
1. I rolled back my own edit; it was last time made unintentionally. I was about to revert it, but my internet connection was lost, so when I logged in again, I regressed it.
The internet is constantly slow and sometimes goes down. I live in a hilly location and I had formerly mentioned it.
My edits on Arjan Lake isn't any WP:GAMING factual number of edits I made; it is 45, not 50. Indeed, I made similar edits before in September and December months on the same articles within a single day or 2-3 days.
2. List of villages in Khoda Afarin on this article, I've added 5680 bytes & made 43 edits.
3. List of villages in Tabriz on this article I've added 4000 bytes & made 49 edits.
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Rasteem
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- While I don't see a change in editing pattern that indicates gaming, the edits to Arjan Lake indicate issues with competence, as the article is weirdly promotional and contains phrases such as "beast species", "emotional 263 proved species". —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:57, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Adding to Femke's point,
magnific 70- cadence-high waterfalls in this area
is not prose that inspires confidence in the editor's competence to edit the English Misplaced Pages. So, we have violations of a topic ban and questions about the editor's linguistic competence and performance. Perhaps an indefinite block appealable in six months with a recommendation to build English competency by editing the Simple English Misplaced Pages, and to build general Misplaced Pages skills by editing in the version of Misplaced Pages in the language they speak best during that minimum six month period. As for Arjan Lake, although the prose is poor, the references in the article make it clear to me that the topic is notable, so the editor deserves some credit for starting this article that did not exist for two decades plus. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
שלומית ליר
שלומית ליר is reminded to double-check edits before publishing, and to try to reply more promptly when asked about potential mistakes. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:21, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning שלומית ליר
N/A
The user wrote that NATO had supported accusations against Hamas citing a chapter titled Hamas and Human Rights in a book titled Hamas Rule in Gaza: Human Rights under Constraint. They cited the entire chapter, pages 56–126. The source itself is a work of scholarship, and nobody would challenge it as a reliable source. Luckily, the full text of the book is available via the Misplaced Pages Library, and anybody with access to that can verify for themselves that the word "shield" appears nowhere in the book. Not human shield, or even NATO (nato appears in searches with the results being "explanatory, twice and coordinator once, or Atlantic, or N.A.T.O. It is simply made up that this source supports that material. The user later, after being challenged but declining to answer what in the source supports it (see here), added another source that supposedly supports the material, this paper by NATO StratCom COE, however they themselves say they are not part of the NATO Command Structure, nor subordinate to any other NATO entity. As such the Centre does not therefore speak for NATO, though that misunderstanding is certainly forgivable. However, completely making up that a source supports something, with a citation to 70 pages of a book, is less so. That is to me a purposeful attempt at obfuscating that the source offered does not support the material added, and the lack of any attempt of explaining such an edit on the talk page led me to file a report here. nableezy - 23:48, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning שלומית לירStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by שלומית לירThe article "Use of human shields by Hamas" is intended to address a well-documented phenomenon: Hamas’s deliberate use of civilian infrastructure — homes, hospitals, and mosques — as shields for its military operations. This includes hiding weapons, constructing military tunnels beneath civilian populations, and knowingly placing innocent lives in harm’s way. Yet, I found the article falls far short of adequately describing this phenomenon. It presents vague and generalized accusations while failing to reference the numerous credible organizations that have extensively documented these practices. During my review, I discovered that essential sources were available in the article's edit history (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas&oldid=1262868174). I retrieved and restored these sources without reverting prior edits, including a source referenced by user Nableezy. When it was brought to my attention that an error had occurred, I acknowledged it, thanked the user, and corrected it by incorporating two reliable references. I had hoped this would resolve the issue, but apparently, it did not. Now, I find myself the subject of an arbitration enforcement hearing that feels not only unwarranted but intended to intimidate me from contributing further to this article. I would also like to point out that the responses to my edits raise serious concerns. For instance, an image depicting missiles hidden in a family home — an image used in other Wikipedias to illustrate this topic — was removed. This raises the question: why obscure such critical evidence? Similarly, a scholarly source with credible information that emphasizes the severity of this issue was reverted without clear justification. This article should serve as a thorough account of Hamas's war crimes, which have resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians. Instead, it seems that some editors are working to dilute its substance, resisting efforts to include vital context and documentation at the start of the article. This undermines the article’s purpose and risks distorting the public’s understanding of an issue of profound international importance.שלומית ליר (talk) 19:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Supreme DeliciousnessValereee created the article Politics of food in the Arab–Israeli conflict. She is therefor involved in the topic area and shouldn't be editing in the uninvolved admin section.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:41, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning שלומית ליר
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KronosAlight
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning KronosAlight
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Butterscotch Beluga (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:16, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- KronosAlight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Adds "depiste being an ex-Muslim" to dismiss accusations of Islamophobia MOS:EDITORIAL.
- Adds MOS:SCAREQUOTES around ‘promoted Islamophobia’ & ‘Islamophobia’ while removing the supporting context.
- Changed "interpreted that statement as a threat and incitement to violence" to "claimed was a threat and incitement to violence, though no threats or violence in fact occurred" MOS:CLAIM & MOS:EDITORIAL
- Changes "Israeli settlers" to "Israeli soldiers" despite the source only explicitly stating them "throwing stones on settlers."
- Unnecessarily specific additions that may constitute WP:POVPUSH such as adding "against civilians" & changing "prevent the assassinations of many Israelis" to "prevent the assassinations of many Israeli civilians and soldiers"
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 24 June 2024 Warned to abide by the one-revert rule when making edits within the scope of the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
- 22 October 2024 Blocked from editing for 1 week for violating consensus required on the page Zionism
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 22 October 2024 by ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 24 January 2024.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
All edits were made at Mosab Hassan Yousef. After I partially reverted their edits with an explanation, I brought the issue to their attention on the talk page, asking for their rationale. They replied that they were "correcting factual errors introduced by previous antisemitic editors" & asked if I "perhaps have a deeper bias that’s influencing decisions in this respect?"
They then undid my partial revert
- Ealdgyth - While I can't find any comments where they were explicitly "warned for casting aspersions", they were asked back in June to WP:AGF in the topic area.
- Also, apologies for my "diffs of edits that violate this sanction" section, this is the first time I've filed a request here & I thought it'd be best to explain the preamble to my revert, but I understand now that I misunderstood the purpose of that section & will remember such for the future. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 15:37, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93 I was able to find a copy of the opinion article being cited 'They Need to Be Liberated From Their God'. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 20:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning KronosAlight
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by KronosAlight
This is a complete waste of the Arbitration Committee’s time.
1. That Yousef was born and raised a Muslim is important and neutral context for readers to be aware of when the article refers to claims of ‘Islamophobia’.
2. The scarequotes indicate that the claim comes from the sources provided, rather than being an objective ‘fact’ determined by a few Misplaced Pages Editors with an axe to grind.
3. This was already addressed on the Talk page and I updated the sentence to say settlers/soldiers with a further label that it needed further clarification because the source does not in fact unambiguously say what Butterscotch Beluga claims.
A few lines above what Butterscotch Beluga quotes is the following lines: “AMANPOUR: How did you take part in that? Were you one of the small children who threw rocks at Israeli soldiers?
YOUSEF: The model for every Palestinian child is a mujahid (ph) or a fidahi (ph) or a fighter. So, of course, I wanted to be one at that point of my life. It wasn't -- it's not my only dream. It's every child's dream in that territory.”
The updated Wiki page noted both settlers/soldiers and included a note that this requires further clarification, perhaps based on other sources, because it isn’t clear (contra Butterscotch Beluga) whether he is referring to soldiers or settlers.
4. It is not controversial to accurately describe Hamas as a terrorist organisation. It is simply a fact. To suggest otherwise is POV-pushing.
5. This is not POVPUSH; ‘assassinations’ against civilians during peacetime are usually called ‘murders’.
I in fact didn’t even remove the word ‘assassinations’, I merely broadened the description from ‘Israelis’ to ‘Israeli civilians and soldiers’ (as Butterscotch accepted) to indicate the breadth of the individuals in question included both civilians and combatants. This is not POVPUSH, it is simply additional information and context verified in the source itself.
All in all, a vexatious claim and a waste of the Arbitration Committee’s time.
Statement by Sean.hoyland
Regarding "I was correcting factual errors introduced by previous antisemitic editors", it would be helpful if KronosAlight would explicitly identify the antisemitic editors and the edits they corrected so that they can be blocked for being antisemitic editors. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:17, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
The editor has been here since 2012. It is reasonable to assume that they know the rules regarding aspersions. It is reasonable to assume they are intentionally violating them, presumably because they genuinely believe they are dealing with antisemitic editors. So, this report is somehow simultaneously a vexatious complete waste of time and the result of the someone interfering with their valiant efforts to correct errors made by antisemitic editors. Why do they have this belief? This is probably a clue, a comment they had the good sense to revert. For me, this is an example of someone attempting to use propaganda that resembles antisemitic conspiracy theories about media control to undermine Misplaced Pages's processes and then changing their mind. But the very fact that they thought of it is disturbing. Their revert suggests that they are probably aware that there are things you can say about an editor and things you cannot say about an editor. From my perspective, what we have here is part of an emerging pattern in the topic area, a growing number of attacks on Misplaced Pages and editors with accusations of antisemitism, cabals etc. stemming in part from external partisan sources/influence operations. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
Aspersions:
- I made that comment to highlight the obvious problem of antisemitism among Misplaced Pages editors.
- It seems less like a merger and more like a deliberate burying of the original information.
- Given some of the users involved there, I don’t have very high hopes given the Pirate Wires allegations.
- Is there no limits you will not cross in order to seek to justify your Jew-hatred?
Zero 10:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Vice regent
KronosAlight, you changed on 14 Dec 2024: "An open letter signed by Christian and Muslim religious leaders interpreted that statement as a threat and incitement to violence
" to "An open letter signed by Christian and Muslim religious leaders claimed was a threat and incitement to violence, though no threats or violence in fact occurred
".
Can you show where either of the sources state "though no threats or violence in fact occurred"? VR (Please ping on reply) 18:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Smallangryplanet
Wanted to add some pertinent evidence:
Talk:Zionism:
- "Interesting question, you should look it up and find an answer"
- I’ll leave it to others to consider what that says about Misplaced Pages’s community.
- If your claim is that the sinking of SS Patria is morally comparable then I simply don’t think you should be allowed to contribute to any of these articles
- You think WW2 and the Holocaust are too low-level to include in the lede?
Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon:
Talk:Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world:
Talk:2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks:
Talk:Anti-Zionism:
- There's no difference between opposing the Jewish people's right to self-determination and calling for the destruction of the State of Israel. It's just two different sets of words to describe the same thing.
- "The route to this implication is via the identification of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Anti-Semites want to rid the world of Jews: Israel is a Jewish State: Anti-Zionists oppose Israel as a Jewish state, ergo anti-Zionists are anti-Semitic, and as such, seek the destruction of Israel." All of this is correct.
Talk:Gaza genocide:
- Even if we assume that Hamas' own numbers are broadly correct (which we shouldn't, because it don't distinguish between civilian and combatant casualties, and have been repeatedly proven be largely just invented), that doesn’t seem to even come close to genocide. Why are we even indulging this ludicrous nonsense?
- When this war ends and the vast, vast, vast majority of Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank are still alive and negotiating begin about the future of their region and political administration etc., will this article be deleted, or will this remain as yet another blood libel against the Jewish people?
Talk:Nuseirat rescue and massacre:
Talk:Al-Sardi school attack:
Talk:Eden Golan:
Other sanctions:
- March 2024: indefinitely topic banned from the subject of flood myths for sealioning, WP:ASPERSIONS, etc
- June 2024: warned to abide by 1RR
- October 2024: blocked for a week
Statement by (username)
Result concerning KronosAlight
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Much of the "diffs of edits that violate this sanction" fail to explain "how these edits violate" the sanction - to me, much of these diffs look like a content dispute. However, the "additional comments" section DOES have a diff that is concerning and violates the CT by casting an aspersion that is not backed up by a diff - the "antisemitic editors" diff. Has KA been previously warned for casting aspersions? If they have, I'm inclined to issue a topic ban, but many other editors get a warning for this if they lack a previous warning. The diffs brought up by Zero (not all of which I necessarily see as aspersions, but the "Jew-hatred" one is definitely over the line - but it's from September so a bit late to sanction for just that) - did anyone point out that aspersions/incivility in this topic area is sanctionable? I see the warnings for 1RR and consensus required... Ealdgyth (talk) 13:30, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @KronosAlight: - can you address the fact that saying "correcting factual errors introduced by previous antisemitic editors" and "Is there no limits you will not cross in order to seek to justify your Jew-hatred"? Neither of these are statements that should ever be made - and the fact that you seem to not to understand this is making me lean towards a topic ban. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- KronosAlight, can you please provide quotes from the references you cited for - for instance - "for his terrorist activities" in this addition, showing that the sources explicitly supported the content you added? Calling a person or an organization is perfectly acceptable if you support that with reliable sources; if it is original research, or source misrepresentation, it isn't acceptable. I cannot access some of the sources in question. You may provide quotes inside a collapsed section if you wish to save space. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- I missed Zero's comments earlier. A lot of those comments, while concerning, are generic, not directed at a specific editor. this, however, is beyond the pale. I would need some convincing that this user is able to edit this area constructively. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:56, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @KronosAlight, can you please respond to this? I too am concerned...the quote you're objecting to wasn't from DrSmarty. It was a direct quote, scare quotes and all, from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. You seem to have reacted to it as if it were DrSmarty. Valereee (talk) 16:06, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I missed Zero's comments earlier. A lot of those comments, while concerning, are generic, not directed at a specific editor. this, however, is beyond the pale. I would need some convincing that this user is able to edit this area constructively. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:56, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't like to sanction in absentia, and I'm not yet suggesting we do so, but I want to note that not choosing not to respond here, or going inactive to avoid responding, will not improve the outcome as far as I am concerned. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- They're a pretty sporadic editor...many edits over a period of a few days, then nothing for two weeks. Maybe we pin this until they edit again? Valereee (talk) 17:26, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Valereee that this editors contribution history shows a pattern of editing for a day or two at a time followed by several weeks of inactivity. So I don't think it's fair to say they went inactive here but also holding this open for multiple weeks waiting for a response places some burden on the other other interested editors. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- They're a pretty sporadic editor...many edits over a period of a few days, then nothing for two weeks. Maybe we pin this until they edit again? Valereee (talk) 17:26, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Nicoljaus
Procedural notes: Per the rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Nicoljaus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:09, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- To enforce an arbitration decision, and for edit warring, and intent to game 1rr, you have been blocked indefinitely from editing Misplaced Pages.
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- I'm aware. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Nicoljaus
The circumstances of my blocking were:
- I was looking for a Misplaced Pages account for Hiba Abu Nada to add it to Wikidata. I couldn't find it, so I did a little research. The reference in the article indicated that she participated in some WikiWrites(?) project. I didn’t find such a project, but I found the WikiRights project: https://ar.wikipedia.org/ويكيبيديا:ويكي_رايتس. It was organized by a certain Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor. I read the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor article and didn't see any outside perspective, "controversy" or anything like that, just self-representation. I surfed the Internet and instantly found information that must be in the article to comply with the NPOV. I started adding , everything went well for two days. Then:
- 12:53, 23 April 2024 - Zero0000 made a complete cancellation of all additions
- 13:14, 23 April 2024 - (20 minutes later!) Selfstudier wrote on my TP
- 14:20 - 14:22, 23 April 2024 - With two edits (first, second) I partially took into account the comment of Zero0000 about "ethnic marking", but returned the last .
- 14:27, 23 April 2024 (7 minutes later!!) Selfstudier makes a second complete cancellation of all my edits, blaming POV editing
- 14:45, 23 April 2024 - I’m returning the version where I partially took into account Zero0000’s comments (removed "ethnic marking")
- 15:10, 23 April 2024 - Selfstudier accuses me of 1RR breach. In the dialogue, I explained that the group that really violated the rule was Selfstudier&Zero0000, who obviously acted in close coordination. My first undo was part of a counter edit User talk:Nicoljaus#1RR_breach
- 15:41, 23 April 2024 Selfstudier writes on Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
- 16:10, 23 April 2024 (30 minutes later!) ScottishFinnishRadish issues an indefinite block . No opportunity to write my “statement”, as well as an extremely bad faith interpretation of my remark as "an intent to game 1rr".
Given that the both Selfstudier and Zero0000 are currently being discussed in Arbcom (https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Evidence), I humbly ask you to take a fresh look at my indefinite block and soften the restrictions in some way". Nicoljaus (talk) 19:32, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish: - You mean, I need to discuss my previous edit war blocks? Well, the last one was almost four years ago and that time I simply forgot that I was under 1RR (there was a big break in editing) and tried to get sources for a newly added map, and the opponent refused to do so . As it turned out later, the true source was a book by a fringe author, which the RSN called "Usual nationalistic bullshit, no sign of reliability". Yes, it was a stupid forgetfulness on my part. Nicoljaus (talk) 16:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Aquillion:
Even if you were correct that Selfstudier & Zero0000 were WP:TAGTEAMing (always a tricky accusation, because it's hard to separate that from just your edits being so obviously problematic that two people independently reverted them)
-- That's why I wrote that my "so problematic edits" attracted attention only after two days, but two users appeared within 20 minutes. However, after months, a lot of data about the cooperation of these users appeared (and this is not my imagination): "While a single editor, Shane (a newbie), advocated for its inclusion, a trio of veterans including Zero0000, Nishidani and Selfstudier fought back. After Selfstudier accused Shane of being a troll for arguing for the photo’s inclusion, Zero0000, days later, “objected” to its inclusion, citing issues of provenance. Nishidani stepped in to back up Zero0000, prompting a response by Shane. The following day, Zero0000 pushed back against Shane, who responded. The day after, Nishidani returned with his own pushback. The tag-team effort proved too much for Shane, who simply gave up, and the effort succeeded: the photo remains absent" . I'll add that after Selfstudier accused Shane of trolling, Zero0000 appeared on Shane's page and said: "Kindly keep your insults to yourself I won't hesitate to propose you for blocking if you keep it up" . According to the table at the link , these two users cooperated like this 720 times. Probably hundreds of people were embittered, forced out of the project, or led to blocking like me.--Nicoljaus (talk) 13:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC) - @ScottishFinnishRadish: Hello, thank you very much for transferring my remarks, now I understand how it works. I would like to clarify the issue of meatpuppetry. You directly accused me of such intentions in justifying the block, and now this accusation has been repeated . Let's figure out whether my hint that Selfstudier and Zero0000 are working too closely was so absurd? Was it really and remains so absurd that it could not be perceived as anything other than my self-exposure? I don't think so.
As for the "edit war" - I understand that edit wars are evil. In the spirit of cooperation, I tried to meet my opponents halfway, as in this case, taking into account their claim, which I could understand, in the counter edit. If such an action is also considered an edit war and a violation of the 1RR/3RR rule - I will of course avoid it in the future.--Nicoljaus (talk) 16:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish
Absent from the appeal is discussion of the five prior edit warring blocks and any indication that they will not resume edit warring. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- I said
They have a long history of edit warring, so I'd like to see that addressed rather than blaming others
above, twelve days ago. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC) - Nicoljaus, you should be focusing on convincing people that you won't edit war in the future rather than more WP:NOTTHEM. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:11, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Nicoljaus
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Simonm223
This edit looks like a bright-line WP:BLP violation via WP:ATTACK and WP:WEASEL - and removing BLP violations are generally somewhere where there is some latitude on WP:1RR which makes the actions of Zero0000 and Selfstudier more justified, not less. Simonm223 (talk) 13:50, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
Selfstudier accuses me of 1RR breach. In the dialogue, I explained that the group that really violated the rule was Selfstudier&Zero0000, who obviously acted in close coordination. My first undo was part of a counter edit
- I feel like this is obvious enough that I probably don't have to point it out, but "counter edit" is not a WP:3RR / WP:1RR exception. Even if you were correct that Selfstudier & Zero0000 were WP:TAGTEAMing (always a tricky accusation, because it's hard to separate that from just your edits being so obviously problematic that two people independently reverted them), it still would not justify your revert. The fact that they're parties to an ArbCom case (which hasn't even yet found any fault with them!) doesn't change any of this. You should probably read WP:NOTTHEM. --Aquillion (talk) 14:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
"the group that really violated the rule was Selfstudier&Zero0000, who obviously acted in close coordination"...yet another conspiracy-minded evidence-free accusation against editors in the PIA topic area, the third one at AE in just a few days. Sean.hoyland (talk) 14:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)
Result of the appeal by Nicoljaus
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I do not see any indication that Nicoljaus actually realizes the problem. The edit warring blocks were indeed some time ago, but one might think they would remember it after being blocked for it repeatedly, not to mention that being issued a CTOP notice might call a CTOP restriction to mind. And the remark in question sure looks to me like a threat to game 1RR via meatpuppetry, too. Given all that, I would decline this appeal. Seraphimblade 23:10, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- I see nothing in this appeal that makes me think they've taken on board the changes that they'd need to do to be a productive editor. It reads to me like "my block was bad, here's why", and that's not working as a reason for me to support unblocking. Ealdgyth (talk) 23:21, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Nicoljaus, what we need to see is you demonstrating you understand edit-warring at a CTOP, which is what you were blocked for, and convincing us you won't do it again. Arguing the block should be lifted because other editors did something you thought looked suspicious isn't going to convince us. Just FWIW, Nicoljaus, the source doesn't actually say these two users cooperated like this 720 times. It says they edited the same articles 720 times, and that's not unusual. Most editors see the same other editors over and over again in articles about their primary interest. And edit by editor 1>2 days>revert by editor 2>revert by editor 1>20 minutes>revert by editor 3 is also not at all unusual anywhere on the encyclopedia and isn't evidence of tag-teaming. People read their watch lists. Any editor with that article on their watchlist, which is nearly fifty editors, might have investigated the large revert of an edit by an experienced editor at a contentious topic. Valereee (talk) 15:18, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nicoljaus, it's not that edit wars are evil. It's that they're disruptive, and particularly in a CTOP we really really don't need additional disruption and drama. A revert is a revert, even if you tried to meet my opponents halfway, as in this case, taking into account their claim, which I could understand, in the counter edit. Re: If such an action is also considered an edit war and a violation of the 1RR/3RR rule: a revert is a revert and is covered in the policy around reversions. And you have a history of blocks for edit-warring, including at other CTOPs.
- It's been seven months since the block. I'm trying to come around to a way to at least allow this editor a chance to show us they've taken this stuff on board...maybe a 0RR at all CTOPs? Valereee (talk) 17:44, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
PerspicazHistorian
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning PerspicazHistorian
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- NXcrypto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- PerspicazHistorian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBIPA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 17:57, 18 December 2024 - removed "discrimination" sidebar from the page of Hindutva (fascist ideology) even though the sidebar was inserted inside a section, not even the lead.
- 17:59, 18 December 2024 - tag bombed the highly vetted Hindutva article without any discussion or reason
- 10:15, 18 December 2024 - attributing castes to people withhout any sources
- 12:11, 18 December 2024 - edit warring to impose the above edits after getting reverted
- 17:09, 18 December 2024 - just like above, but this time he also added unreliable sources
- 18:29, 18 December 2024 - still edit warring and using edit summaries instead of talk page for conversation
- 14:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC) - filed an outrageous report on WP:ANI without notifying any editors. This report was closed by Bbb23 as "
This is nothing but a malplaced, frivolous personal attack by the OP.
"
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I do not see any positive signs that this editor will ever improve. So far he has only regressed. Nxcrypto Message 15:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- While going through this report, PerspicazHistorian has made another highly problematic edit here by edit warring and misrepresenting the sources to label the organisation as "terrorist". This primary source only provides a list of organisations termed by the Indian government as "terrorist" contrary to MOS:TERRORIST. Nxcrypto Message 03:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning PerspicazHistorian
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by PerspicazHistorian
By far I am also concerned how my edits were forcefully reverted without a proper reason despite providing enough references. Please check how I am getting attacked by them on Chandraseniya_Kayastha_Prabhu Page.
I didn't know about the three-revert-rule before User: Ratnahastin told me about this: User_talk:PerspicazHistorian.
Please grant me one more chance, I will make sure not to edit war.
In the below statement by LukeEmily, As a reply I just want to say that I was just making obvious edit on Chandraseniya_Kayastha_Prabhu by adding a list of notable people with proper references. And according to Edit_warring#What_edit_warring_is it is clearly said: "Edits from a slanted point of view, general insertion or removal of material, or other good-faith changes are not considered vandalism." It was a good faith edit but others reverted it. I accept my mistake of not raising it on talk page as a part of Misplaced Pages:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle.
As a clarification to my edit on Students' Islamic Movement of India, it can be clearly seen that I provided enough reference to prove its a terrorist organisation as seen in this edit. I don't know why is there a discussion to this obvious edit? Admins please correct me if I am wrong.
- @Valereee, Yes I read about 1RR and 0RR revert rules in Misplaced Pages:Edit warring#What edit warring is#Other revert rules. I now understand the importance of raising the topic on talk page whenever a consensus is needed. Thank You ! PerspicazHistorian (talk) 07:16, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I will commit to that. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC) Moved comment to own section. Please comment, including replies, only in this section. Seraphimblade 13:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LukeEmily
PerspicazHistorian also violated WP:BRD by engaging in an edit war with Ratnahastin who reverted his edits and restored an article to a stable version by admin. Also, I want to assume good faith but it is surprising that PerspicazHistorian claims that he did not know the three revert rule given that he has more than 800 edits.LukeEmily (talk)
Statement by Doug Weller
I'm involved so just commenting. I don't think this editor is competent. I had to give them a community sanction caste warning as they were making a mess of castes. See this earlier version of their talk page.]https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:PerspicazHistorian&oldid=1262289249] and User:Deb's comment that "It was very unwise of you to keep moving Draft:Satish R. Devane to article space when it has not passed review. As a direct result of your actions, a deletion discussion is taking place, and when this is complete and the article is deleted, you will be prevented from recreating it. Deb (talk) 14:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)" There have also been copyright issues. I strongly support a topic ban. Doug Weller talk 11:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- At that time I was new to how AFD discussions worked. Later on when Satish R. Devane was marked for deletion, I respected the consensus by not interfering in it. The article was later deleted. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 11:54, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @Doug Weller , I just checked your user page. You have 16 years (I am 19) of experience on wiki, you must be right about me. I agree that my start on Misplaced Pages has been horrible, but I am learning a lot from you all. I promise that I will do better, get more neutral here and contribute to the platform to my best. Please don't block me.
- P.S.- I don't know If I will be blocked or what , according to this enforcement rules, I just want to personally wish good luck to you for your ongoing cancer treatments, You will surely win this battle of Life. Regards. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 12:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I won't be involved in the decision. No more treatments for me, just coast until... Doug Weller talk 12:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning PerspicazHistorian
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
PerspicazHistorian, can you explain your understanding of WP:edit warring and the WP:3RR rule? I'd like you to read thoroughly enough to also explain wny someone may be edit warring even if they aren't breaking 3RR. Valereee (talk) 21:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- @PerspicazHistorian, that explanation of edit warring is a bit wanting. An edit war is when two or more editors revert content additions/removals repeatedly. Even a second reversion by the same editor can be considered edit warring. Best practice -- and what I highly recommend, especially for any inexperienced editor -- is the first time someone reverts an edit of yours, go to the talk page, open a section, ping the editor who reverted you, and discuss. Do you think you can commit to that?
- Re: your question on why your "obvious edit" was reverted: we don't deal with content issues here, only with behavior issues, but from a very quick look, the source is 50 years old, and using a list headed "TERRORIST ORGANISATIONS LISTED IN THE FIRST SCHEDULE OF THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES (PREVENTION) ACT, 1967" that includes a certain organization as a source that the organization should be described as a terrorist organization is WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH; in their revert NXcrypto provided an edit summary of "Not a reliable source for such a contentious label. See WP:LABEL." Please discuss at talk, not here; we don't deal with content here. Valereee (talk) 11:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)