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			{{oldafdfull\| date = 10 July 2009 (UTC) \| result = '''keep''' \| page = Anton incident }}
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	== "Kidnapping" ==		== "Kidnapping" ==

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	:Don't take everything you read on Misplaced Pages at face value. In medical pages, as the ] used to say, you might die of a misprint. In legal pages, you might ]. ]<sub>]</sub> 17:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)		:Don't take everything you read on Misplaced Pages at face value. In medical pages, as the ] used to say, you might die of a misprint. In legal pages, you might ]. ]<sub>]</sub> 17:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

			:Since crimes must be proven in court, we can only say "alleged kidnapping", otherwise it is a BLP violation. --] (]) 00:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

			::"Kidnapping" is used by sources, therefore, it's not a BLP violation. ] (]) 00:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

			:::Only in online Russian media sources. This kind of thing wouldn't be permitted in Western media. --] (]) 00:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

			::::Please don't try to make this an ethnic battleground. ] (]) 00:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

			:::::Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. The simple fact is that when Western media discusses some crime investigation, they always preface it with "alleged" if the case hasn't gone to court, otherwise it is damaging to a person's reputation if the subsequent court case acquits the person. --] (]) 00:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

	== BLP concerns ==		== BLP concerns ==
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	Some people have stated ] concerns. I have thus moved the article to ] and removed the full name from the article. Most news coverage however mention the full name.		Some people have stated ] concerns. I have thus moved the article to ] and removed the full name from the article. Most news coverage however mention the full name.

	~~The~~ searches will produce results form the Russain media: and . For news: . For western media: .		These searches will produce results form the Russain media: and . For news: . For western media: .

	-- ] (]) 02:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)		-- ] (]) 02:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
			: ] is a redirect to this article.—] \| ] 20:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

	Another somewhat similar example is that of Elise Andre, a daughter of Irina Belenkaya, a citizen of Russia, and Jean-Michel Andre, a citizen of France. This case is even more interesting because it involves two conflicting court rulings: a French court has given custody to the father, and a Russian court has given custody to the mother. It seems that in March, the mother got two sturdy friends, paid a visit to the father, had the friends beat him up, and attempted to take the child to Russia. She was, however, caught by Hungarian border guards, and is currently waiting for extradition to France for trial of accessory to assault and kidnapping charges. Naturally, she has made a complaint but I don't think it has significant chance of passing -- and the drama contiinuums. ]<sub>]</sub> 15:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)		Another somewhat similar example is that of Elise Andre, a daughter of Irina Belenkaya, a citizen of Russia, and Jean-Michel Andre, a citizen of France. This case is even more interesting because it involves two conflicting court rulings: a French court has given custody to the father, and a Russian court has given custody to the mother. It seems that in March, the mother got two sturdy friends, paid a visit to the father, had the friends beat him up, and attempted to take the child to Russia. She was, however, caught by Hungarian border guards, and is currently waiting for extradition to France for trial of accessory to assault and kidnapping charges. Naturally, she has made a complaint but I don't think it has significant chance of passing -- and the drama contiinuums. ]<sub>]</sub> 15:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

			::Hungarian authorities have extradited Mrs. Belenkaya to France: . ]<sub>]</sub> 14:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

			::The cases are discussed together . ]<sub>]</sub> 06:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

			== How does Russian bureaucracy work? ==

			This is an illuminating case on Russian bureaucracy at work. Particularly enlightening is the part of expedited citizenship merely to develop a basis for a scandal, or perhaps to save face of a minister. ]<sub>]</sub> 12:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

			:Could we please cut down on expressing our personal opinions here, and concentrate on improving the article? This talk page is ] for general discussion about the article's subject. ] (]) 12:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

			::In other personal opinions of mine, I have opined that this article should be deleted. It's very unfortunate that my comment above will be deleted together with the article, but as a girlfriend of mine used to say, ''c'est la vie''. ]<sub>]</sub> 16:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


			== What year? ==
			: Exactly when did this happen? Year ago April 2008 or this year 2009? Article says 2008. --] (]) 05:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

			== Template: Update ==
			According to (Finnish), a Russian court has ruled Anton has Finnish citizenship and belongs solely to his father's custody on 20th May. The mother has complained against this decision. This is something very important, not not yet covered in the article. Another reason why it should be deleted, many tabloid trash articles are now based on non-factual information. --]] 19:48, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

			:Total crap – although this is how many in Finland have understood the news item. This article by ] has no new information, it only repeats the old court decisions available in reliable Russian sources and referenced to in this article. The latest Russian decision is from May 4 2009, that is the decision that sparked the final smuggling incident. I am removing the {{tl\|Update}} tag. -- ] (]) 23:19, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
			::If the Russian courts found in favour of the father obtaining custody, how could the action of the father taking the child be considered an "abduction"? Also how can you claim the child was originally born only a Russian citizen, only to acquire Finnish citizenship later, when the Finnish citizenship law is quite clear on this: ]? --] (]) 01:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

			:::As the child was born out of wedlock, the paternity had to be established. He became a Finnish citizen (or dual citizen) when the father's paternity was established. But you are right, my text needs some tweaking. -- ] (]) 02:22, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

			Last sunday's printed Helsingin Sanomat there was a small article about the incident. If I remember correctly there was two corrections to news in Finland and Russia: a) parents had shared custody during the process (MTV3 incorrectly wrote that only the father had a single custody) b) mother had not born or lived at all in Russia before the abduction. ] (]) 06:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

			Also I red in last week's Iltalehti (not a very good source) that Anton has a 17-years old brother, who was from the mother's earlier relations. And that the mother left the older boy with the father, and claimed in Russian news that parents had a agreement: the father gets the older boy and the mother gets Anton. ] (]) 06:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

			== Simo Pietiläinen on fi-wiki ==
			There is an article on ] at ]. Nothing on Anton yet. -- ] (]) 05:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

			== Surname ==

			Why does the article not mention his surname? This can be easily deduced from the names of his parents anyway, so why cannot we mention it? ] (]) 09:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

			:I added as it is mentioned in every media. ] (]) 19:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

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Latest revision as of 16:07, 16 September 2024

This article was nominated for deletion on 10 July 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on May 17, 2009. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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"Kidnapping"

"In criminal law, kidnapping is the taking away or asportation of a person against the person's will, usually to hold the person in false imprisonment, a confinement without legal authority. This may be done for ransom or in furtherance of another crime, or in connection with a child custody dispute."

There is no proof that the boy was taken to Russia against his will, so how can it be kidnapping? Offliner (talk) 07:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't take everything you read on Misplaced Pages at face value. In medical pages, as the Great Bard used to say, you might die of a misprint. In legal pages, you might serve ten years over capitalisation. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 17:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Since crimes must be proven in court, we can only say "alleged kidnapping", otherwise it is a BLP violation. --Martintg (talk) 00:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

"Kidnapping" is used by sources, therefore, it's not a BLP violation. Offliner (talk) 00:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Only in online Russian media sources. This kind of thing wouldn't be permitted in Western media. --Martintg (talk) 00:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Please don't try to make this an ethnic battleground. Offliner (talk) 00:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. The simple fact is that when Western media discusses some crime investigation, they always preface it with "alleged" if the case hasn't gone to court, otherwise it is damaging to a person's reputation if the subsequent court case acquits the person. --Martintg (talk) 00:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

BLP concerns

Some people have stated WP:BLP concerns. I have thus moved the article to Anton incident and removed the full name from the article. Most news coverage however mention the full name.

These searches will produce results form the Russain media: "Антон Салонен" and "Антона Салонена". For news: "Антон Салонен". For western media: Anton Salonen.

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Anton Salonen is a redirect to this article.—C45207 | Talk 20:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Another somewhat similar example is that of Elise Andre, a daughter of Irina Belenkaya, a citizen of Russia, and Jean-Michel Andre, a citizen of France. This case is even more interesting because it involves two conflicting court rulings: a French court has given custody to the father, and a Russian court has given custody to the mother. It seems that in March, the mother got two sturdy friends, paid a visit to the father, had the friends beat him up, and attempted to take the child to Russia. She was, however, caught by Hungarian border guards, and is currently waiting for extradition to France for trial of accessory to assault and kidnapping charges. Naturally, she has made a complaint but I don't think it has significant chance of passing -- and the drama contiinuums. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 15:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Hungarian authorities have extradited Mrs. Belenkaya to France: . Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 14:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The cases are discussed together here. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 06:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

How does Russian bureaucracy work?

This is an illuminating case on Russian bureaucracy at work. Particularly enlightening is the part of expedited citizenship merely to develop a basis for a scandal, or perhaps to save face of a minister. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 12:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Could we please cut down on expressing our personal opinions here, and concentrate on improving the article? This talk page is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. Offliner (talk) 12:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

In other personal opinions of mine, I have opined that this article should be deleted. It's very unfortunate that my comment above will be deleted together with the article, but as a girlfriend of mine used to say, c'est la vie. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 16:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

What year?

Exactly when did this happen? Year ago April 2008 or this year 2009? Article says 2008. --RicHard (talk) 05:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Template: Update

According to this (Finnish), a Russian court has ruled Anton has Finnish citizenship and belongs solely to his father's custody on 20th May. The mother has complained against this decision. This is something very important, not not yet covered in the article. Another reason why it should be deleted, many tabloid trash articles are now based on non-factual information. --Pudeo ' 19:48, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Total crap – although this is how many in Finland have understood the news item. This article by MTV3 has no new information, it only repeats the old court decisions available in reliable Russian sources and referenced to in this article. The latest Russian decision is from May 4 2009, that is the decision that sparked the final smuggling incident. I am removing the {{Update}} tag. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:19, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

If the Russian courts found in favour of the father obtaining custody, how could the action of the father taking the child be considered an "abduction"? Also how can you claim the child was originally born only a Russian citizen, only to acquire Finnish citizenship later, when the Finnish citizenship law is quite clear on this: A child acquires Finnish citizenship at birth if the child's father is a Finnish citizen, the child is born out of wedlock, and paternity has been established? --Martintg (talk) 01:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

As the child was born out of wedlock, the paternity had to be established. He became a Finnish citizen (or dual citizen) when the father's paternity was established. But you are right, my text needs some tweaking. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:22, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Last sunday's printed Helsingin Sanomat there was a small article about the incident. If I remember correctly there was two corrections to news in Finland and Russia: a) parents had shared custody during the process (MTV3 incorrectly wrote that only the father had a single custody) b) mother had not born or lived at all in Russia before the abduction. Peltimikko (talk) 06:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Also I red in last week's Iltalehti (not a very good source) that Anton has a 17-years old brother, who was from the mother's earlier relations. And that the mother left the older boy with the father, and claimed in Russian news that parents had a agreement: the father gets the older boy and the mother gets Anton. Peltimikko (talk) 06:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Simo Pietiläinen on fi-wiki

There is an article on Simo Pietiläinen at fi:Simo Pietiläinen. Nothing on Anton yet. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Surname

Why does the article not mention his surname? This can be easily deduced from the names of his parents anyway, so why cannot we mention it? Offliner (talk) 09:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I added as it is mentioned in every media. Peltimikko (talk) 19:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

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