| Revision as of 22:36, 28 May 2009 view sourceJohn Vandenberg (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users68,507 edits →Statement by John Vandenberg: reply to Fedayee and Coren← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 04:54, 26 December 2024 view source MJL (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors42,350 edits →Sabotage of Lindy Li's page: removing case as premature: declinedTag: Manual revert | ||
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| == Moses of Chorene == | |||
| <noinclude>{{-}}</noinclude> | |||
| '''Initiated by ''' ]] '''at''' 05:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| === Involved parties === | |||
| *{{userlinks|Grandmaster}}, ''filing party'' | |||
| *{{userlinks|MarshallBagramyan}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Gazifikator}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Eupator}} | |||
| ;Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| ;Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried | |||
| *]: | |||
| *Mediation proposed: | |||
| === Statement by Grandmaster === | |||
| This request results from the problems with the article ], which is guarded by a group of users supporting certain POV, who prevent other users from including information they do not like. The dispute about the dating of ancient historian Moses of Chorene started in the article ], with this edit by Marshall Bagramyan, which seemed to claim that the opinion of American historian ] about the dating of Moses of Chorene is not the mainstream view: . I looked into this issue and quoted at talk a number of prominent western experts, who shared the opinion of Hewsen, and made this edit: , which MarshallBagramyan revised like this: , claiming that the opinion of Hewsen was the opinion of minority. I rolled it back, asking for a source: , and made a clarification that there's a dispute about when Moses of Chorene lived: This last edit was reverted by MarshallBagramyan: | |||
| After this I did more research on the subject, and it became apparent to me that the majority of international experts date Moses of Chorene later than the 5th century. However the article about Moses of Chorene claimed 5th century dating as a fact, and the opinions of scholars who challenged this view were criticized. This is the version of the article that existed before I started editing it: It contained statements such as: | |||
| {{quotation|Up until the mid-twentieth century, many scholars doubted that Movses wrote the work in the fifth century due to historical inconsistencies, addressed him as "Pseudo-Movses", and moved him and the ''History'' to the seventh to ninth centuries.<ref>Hacikyan et al. ''Heritage of Armenian Literature'', pp. 305-306.</ref><ref>Malkhasyants. "Introduction" in ''History of Armenia'', pp. 3-5.</ref> ], an Armenian ] and expert of ] literature, likened this period to a "competition", whereby one scholar attempted to outperform the other in their criticism of Movses.<ref>Malkhasyants. "Introduction" in ''History of Armenia'', p. 3.</ref> Although these views have now been discredited and "much of this criticism has been rejected,"<ref>Hacikyan et al. ''Heritage of Armenian Literature'', p. 306.</ref> there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work and criticize it heavily as a historical source. | |||
| <references/> | |||
| }} | |||
| As one could see, despite the dating being in dispute by the modern scholarly community, the article claimed that the later dating "has been discredited", etc. I made a few edits to fairly represent the alternative opinions: They were all reverted by MarshallBagramyan, removing the source that I cited: I restored my edits, and asked MarshallBagramyan at talk why he reverted my edits: MarshallBagramyan reverted again: , claiming that my edits were OR and weasel wording, and in his comment at talk rejected the scholars such as Hewsen, ] and ] , who are all well known experts in Armenian studies. Quite interestingly that while accusing me of weasel wording, he himself included in the article quite questionable weasel statements, such as "there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work". I quoted a number of authoritative publications and authors (including ] ), and stated that the opinions of above scholars are notable and must be quoted in the article: Also, I noticed that users ] and ] were previously involved in editing of this article, so I notified them about the dispute, and asked them for help with dispute resolution: I was not familiar with these users before. Folantin commented: , and dab reverted MarshallBagramyan: and commented at talk: MarshallBagramyan commented, , and then Eupator made quite an incivil comment about dab: In the meantime time dab made a series of edits, trying to introduce the alternative position: , MarshallBagramyan reverted all of dab's edits: , Folantin restored them: , Eupator reverted: . dab made another rewrite in a few edits: , MarshallBagramyan reverted again: , dab rvd back: | |||
| According to the ruling of arbitration case ], MarshallBagramyan was placed on 1rv per week parole because of edit warring: | |||
| , which was logged here: After he made first 3 rvs I warned him about the violation: Despite that he kept reverting, so I filed an arbitration enforcement request here: , as result of which he was blocked for 2 days: Back from his block, MarshallBagramyan rewrites the article, essentially reverting it to his original version with minor variations, and deleting the info and sources that he did not like: I rolled back Marshall's edits: Gazifikator joins and reverts: , and is reverted by ]: {{IPuser|91.103.31.214}}, which appears to be Gazifikator who forgot to sign in, reverted back: This is when ] protects the article. In the meantime there was a long discussion at talk of the article, where I provided numerous quotes from leading experts in Armenian studies, who said that the dating of Moses of Chorene was disputed, or that he lived later than the 5th century. Despite that, the discussion was stonewalled by MarshallBagramyan, Eupator and Gazifikator, and no progress was made. dab, Folantin and Paul B left the article. | |||
| I attempted dispute resolution, and asked for a third opinion. ] read the sources quoted at talk and provided a third opinion: After more than one month of discussions me and Marshall agreed on compromise version of the intro, and I agreed to drop the words "dating is disputed" to reach a compromise with MarshallBagramyan, despite other users insisting that the intro should say so: The only one objecting to this compromise was Gazifikator: After more than a month the article was unprotected, , and I included the intro that was agreed at talk: I waited another day, to see if MarshallBagramyan and Gazifikator would introduce the alternative opinions themselves. This did not happen, so I made a couple of changes to include the opinions of notable American experts who challenged the 5th century dating. In particular, I quoted ], a retired Harvard professor, who translated the work of Moses of Chorene into English. Considering that much space in the article is dedicated to criticism of this scholar by some obscure Armenian authors, it would be in line with ] to fairly represent the position of the other side of the dispute and explain what Thomson actually says. My edits were immediately reverted by MarshallBagramyan, who accused me of edit warring and POV pushing. I don't understand how inclusion of sourced info from leading experts in Armenian studies could be considered POV pushing. I restored my edits, , however I was reverted by ]: , who was absent from discussion for about a month. ] again protected the article at MarshallBagramyan 's preferred version. I made another attempt at dispute resolution, and proposed to request a mediation: Gazifikator refused: , and so did MarshallBagramyan: | |||
| As one could see, for about 2 months the article about Moses of Chorene has been in a deadlock. It is impossible to add any information to the article, if it does not conform with the opinion of MarshallBagramyan and Gazifikator. Third party editors are being driven out of the article by relentless edit warring, discussions are being stonewalled, and dispute resolution attempts are being sabotaged. It is a clear violation of ] and other policies. Thus, the arbitration is my last resort to resolve the problems with this article. | |||
| '''Additional comment'''. Responding to Newyorkbrad's question, if there was any possibility to resolve the problem by other means, I would not take it here. However I don't think that the problems with the article could be resolved unless the community takes it under the strict control. So far the other involved parties did not show any willingness to cooperate with any dispute resolution. I mean, if they wanted to resolve the dispute, why did they refuse from mediation? In particular, Gazifikator, who says that the dispute would be working itself out, did nothing but edit war on almost every article that he edited. For instance, on ], the article with unclear purpose that he created, he made already 10 rvs to remove the information about the number of ardent believers. On ] he was the only one objecting to the compromise wording of the intro. How can one reasonably expect this user to work any problems out in cooperation with other editors? From what I see, this group of editors wants to keep the things the way they are. They will be stonewalling the discussions, so that no progress would be made, refuse from any dispute resolution, and keep the article protected as long as they can. If the article becomes unprotected, they will not let anyone edit it, and eventually an admin will protect it for them. It seems that they expect that the editors wishing to add info on alternative dating will get tired of pointless arguments, and give up. Btw, this already happened, when a group of editors left after the article got protected the first time. Since this tactic is working, I expect that they will be employing it in the future. I believe that if nothing is done to resolve the stonewalling issue now, the problem will be reemerging on other articles. You saw that it started in the article about Sisak, which is an article of a very minor importance, and then spread over to other articles. The content dispute itself is a very quick one to resolve, like in many other cases, there are 2 different views on the subject. As usual, both views should be presented alongside each other, so that the reader could form an opinion about both positions. It takes just ten minutes to do that. But the article has been in a deadlock for 2 months now. | |||
| Also, I find it quite strange that dab is being accused of bad manners. He may have made statements about the nationalistic historians in Armenia, but never made any personal comments about other editors. As I showed above, dab's very first edit was met with an incivil comment, and personal attacks continued until he left the page. Just check this one: | |||
| And it turns out that The Diamond Apex was MarshallBagramyan's sock, judging by the block logs: Surprise. ]] 06:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by MarshallBagramyan === | |||
| I'm going to make my thoughts brief and concise considering GM's gross need to grossly exaggerate the situation: I never opposed inserting alternative opinions and my opinion has been noted numerous times on Movses Khorenatsi's talk page. What I did oppose was the problematic wording that was being POV-pushed by Grandmaster and Dbachmann himself, who turned a fine article into a heap of rubble. I asked both users to not get carried away with their edits and to resolve all disputes diplomatically. What I got was a hurl of insults from an intolerant admin (dab) and edit-warring by GM. Less than a few hours after the article was unlocked, GM inserted controversial edits and has as of yet ignored each and every request to discuss his edits and it's extremely dishonest for him to portray himself as an innocent editor given his heavily-POV-laden edits. Movses Khorenatsi is perhaps the best known Armenian history and while I have refrained from saying so in the past few months, is also a visible target. It's all to clear that GM is over-emphasizing the dating issue to create a counterfeit controversy and has showed absolutely no interest on Movses' other details. | |||
| Thus, there's absolutely no need to waste everybody's time with another arbitration case. I invite GM to the talk to propose his wordings and we can insert Thomson's and Toumanoff's and anyone else's opinions to his heart's content, in a npov manner and with counter arguments, of course. Calling Armenian scholars "obscure", as if they are unqualified, is a rather amateurish attack by GM, for he would never make such an unprofessional remark if he saw how much Western scholars have benefited and profited from their sweat and labor over the past 40 years. The French article on Movses looks fine and I wouldn't mind seeing the English one resemble something like that. It's that simple. --] (]) 06:31, 26 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Statement by marginally involved Folantin=== | |||
| I'm commenting here because I've edited this article in the past. I removed it from my watchlist shortly after the dispute broke out because I was too busy dealing with problems elsewhere and it looked like it was going nowhere fast. Consequently, I'm unaware of the details of the talk page arguments (though I may look into them if this case goes ahead). What I can say is that my understanding of the content issue is that every modern English-language source I've come across puts the date of the history attributed to Moses of Chorene later than the traditional one of the 5th century. | |||
| If John Vandenberg's supposition about the cause of this dispute (the ] article) is correct, then that's yet more depressing evidence that all too many editors are seeing every article about Armenia and Azerbaijan on Misplaced Pages through the lens of the territorial dispute over ]. I don't see how this benefits the general reader. --] (]) 12:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Re: queries from Arbs. I'm not entirely sure ArbCom is the best way of solving this dispute. --] (]) 22:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by John Vandenberg === | |||
| My involvement started back when Sisak and Hayk were mentioned back in October 2008 at ]. (I am a ] of Rlevse) We had an article for Hayk but we didnt have one for Sisak, so thought it would be helpful if I assisted him in the requested review by creating ]. was neutral, I think. The dating issue took over, and I stayed out of that until an anon started removing a very appropriate quotation. At this time, even Marshal Bagramyan was of the opinion that I performed a single revert of the anon, and I left the battle with on the talk page asking the parties to put more emphasis on expanding the article, including a question about ] (still unanswered). | |||
| It is worth pointing out to this committee that my creation of that article was viewed suspiciously, and was part of the general ruckus during the election. I ask the arbitrator to read this in full: ], but I will quote just two sentences: | |||
| {{cquote|'''''As a participant in the A-A dispute for the last two years''''', I've observed Jayvdb's behavior, and I'm definitely not pleased by the way he entered a longstanding historical dispute between Armenians and Azeris. ... If Jayvdb was oblivious to the fact that Grandmaster was toying with him as his own pawn, then I don't consider him a suitable candidate for the Arbitration Committee. | |||
| }} | |||
| The same dating dispute moved to ], which has been locked in dispute due to Nishkid64 protecting it twice. | |||
| The first protection occurred after a revert by an IP registered to the Armenian Ministry of Economy, and resulted in a complaint at ]. Nishkid64 rightly recommended ], which was obtained. While both sides tried to integrate the changes recommended by the third opinion, another edit-war erupted with MarshallBagramyan saying in an edit summary (emphasis mine): | |||
| {{cquote|Are you honestly provoking a revert war again? These changes are never discussed and this why '''''it will be locked''''', this is beyond POV-pushing}} | |||
| Nishkid protected it again an hour later. Since Nishkid64 isn't involved in this specific article, and there was an edit war going on, it is within reason that Nishkid64 protected the article. However each time he protected it at an "Armenian" preferred version and, coincidences aside, he is clearly not impartial when it comes to A-A disputes, especially when Grandmaster is involved. | |||
| Nishkid64's role in the ] case was of a similar nature, where ] and ] blocked ], however the committee at the time extended good faith to them. | |||
| I urge the committee to accept this case limited to this one issue, as this dispute is a meaty bite sized example of the broader dispute. If you guys and gals can resolve this one, the principle will hold for the large majority of the others in the A-A topical area. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 19:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :@The Diamond Apex, it is a bit rich to call yourself a "non-involved editor"; you have been active on the talk page where your comments are well informed but not impartial, and it was your revert that occurred 10 minutes before Nishkid64 decided that protection of the article was necessary.. Due to the low level of your involvement I am not surprised that Grandmaster omitted you from the list of parties, but perhaps you could do the honour. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 23:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :@Fedayee: Over at the Sisak discussion, MarshallBagramyan asserted back in November 2008 that "The Movses Khorenatsi article currently presents the current view held by the Movses Khorenatsiologists who have studied the language and history of Movses and are not slavishly regurgitating the tripe echoed by European scholars that surfaced during the 19th century." Not surprisingly, it then became necessary to address the bias in the ] article before the Sisak discussion could resume. It is surprising how many third opinions have been needed in order to fix this one simple issue. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 22:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :@Coren: This is not a content dispute. Any uninvolved editor would have known that the 5th century dating was not the only view that has currency. Rather than attempt to fix this, the editors with a history of supporting the Armenian point of view stonewalled discussion, left Grandmaster to do the edit and then reverted him. They talk sweetly now about the compromise that was made - that is to the introduction of one article where the sources are plentiful. And they tried to block this at every stage, such as , as if that would resolve the 3-5 century differences in the dating, and (heaven forbid that uninvolved parties keep stating the obvious) At this pace, that one article will not be a good article candidate for another 10 years. And not for trying. The edit history will be littered with users who later become banned. | |||
| :It is one example dispute that demonstrates effectively the user conduct and gaming that occurs in this topical area. 1RR has not worked; the deck is rigged. Any user that engages in these practices needs to be reverted and placed on 0RR indefinitely until they can demonstrate that they can ]. | |||
| :See ] for some of my thoughts on this issue. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 22:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Statement by uninvolved The Diamond Apex=== | |||
| In my humble opinion, and provided that it will not be discounted, the primary offender on the Khorenatsi article is neither of the two parties but Mr. Dbachmann, whose disparaging remarks toward MarshallBagramyan and Eupator Grandmaster did not bother to include in his summary above. It is paramount to read this section,so that the administrators have a clearer picture of what I am speaking: . To the best of my understanding, you cannot impose something which is disagreed upon and then report someone for reverting you. Also, to Mr. Folantin, please see this and the tables provided in talk here,. There was indeed a compromise in the lead, which unfortunately you did not acknowledge. Both parties should discuss, bit by bit, however painful and micromanagable it wlll seem, every addition that they wish to make; and that was the justification behind my revert. This will force both parties to work from a certain version. They have already compromised on the lead section of the article and there is no reason for us to assume that they cannot do so for the rest (alas, Rome obviously was not build in one day). | |||
| If it would not hurt to include my second point, an observation if you will, I would like to note that I have seen that many editors are restricted to one revert per week. This has created obvious problems (particularly the case of Mr. Meowy). It would be more logical to enforce such a limit on the articles and with a requirement that those who revert were actually engaged in the conversation beforehand (say, at least for two days prior to the revert and that their discussion includes the element which is disputed). Just changing this policy, or guideline or whathaveyou, I believe, will correct a lot of problems. | |||
| MarshallBagarmian's followup is slightly upsetting, but unfortunately I doubt anyone can do anything about that. Misplaced Pages is a popular site; it iss naive of us to think that no one | |||
| would think of taking advantage of that. We should just be sure that every user uses one account, with whatever tools Misplaced Pages has, and only then impose the policy I mentioned above, requiring the article revert restriction to at least two, and not one, days, to prevent others from taking advantage of it. | |||
| Therefore, I, too, disapprove of the need for making a case out of nothing here (unless of course we are speaking about rectifying Mr. Dbachmann's etiquette). Regards to all,--] (]) 20:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ;Addendum: | |||
| Also, it is important to note that Jayvdb brought on the locking of the article and was the person who locked it. I personally have not noticed anything suspicious about the locking. His first lock was over 7 hours after the revert. Three editors from one side and two on the other made the reverts for the last day before the fist lock. It should not at all be surprising that there is a probability that this would favor the side who had more editors involved, and again, the article was locked several hours after the last revert. On the second series of reverts, I was the last involved in the revert (and I admitted I may have been a little too quick, my mistake), and besides me only MarshallBagramyan and Grandmasters were involved. That makes Grandmaster being outnumbered 2 to 1, on that paricular case and I understand his frustration as I realised it afterward. It's true the article was locked 10 minutes afterward, but it’s also true that I reverted Grandmaster less than half an hour after his revert, its not as if someone was waiting my revert out there to lock (that's what I am under the impression John suppose). If we're going to check the heart of each administrator (how is this even possible), we may just as well check Sandstein’s here , whose behavior and castigation toward Meowy has been, to say the least, ridiculous. We can probably deduct a lot of things behind the locks, but I see Jayvdb is an arbitrator and it is very unbecoming of him to indirectly imply misconduct. If I am mistaken in saying this, I do apologise. | |||
| I also do thank Jayvdb for his feedback and, true to my word, I will take it to heart. If he feel I was not impartial, he should have perhaps told me on the talk page (which he was not a part of; I'm glad he has taken the time to read my comments which are pretty long, but a reply would have been very nice). I don't remember having communicated with him asides from my comments here, . I’m afraid that I must admit that my comment has bordered rudeness there. I truly apologise for my temper but for the sake of an argument, I wonder what he was expecting. He left a link which was unrelated to the article, a revisionist booklet of the Tukish government whose only purpose is to deny the Armenian genocide and I believe he certainly did not do himself a service by adding this unreliable link, in an article where several editors out of the blue found interest in. The site added by Jayvdb is aimed to purports that the Armenian genocide never took place (see the links provided in the 'Link' section of the site on what's more about it). In the two most heated incidents Khorenatsi and Armenian terrorism his actions have poured oil onto the fire, which would have probably caused Armenian editors to be disruptive in their replies, which results could have been more blocks and grief. He should know this; as an administrator he should work toward cooling nationalists down not to feed a fight. Anyway, it's not as if things can't be repaired, they can, bringing this further with a trial is needless and unconstructive. We should all be ready to forgive and forget. | |||
| ===Statement by Nishkid64=== | |||
| My participation in the Ehud Lesar case was strictly on the grounds that I believed the user was a sock of the banned editor ] (who happens to be Azeri). Ban and block enforcement is something I quite frequently deal with, c.f. my sock blocks of banned nationalists from Europe, Eurasia and Asia. | |||
| I first came across ] on April 18 most likely after following a series of wikilinks. I noticed an edit war was in progress and that a resolution was unlikely to be reached on the article talk page in a timely manner. I decided to protect the article, as I figured it was just another in the long list of disputed Armenia-Azerbaijan topics. I was then left a stern note by Dbachmann, who was upset with the version I chose to protect. My protections are never an endorsement of the current version of the page. I always protect articles in their current state, regardless of the nationalist slant that might be present, unless it contains vandalism, BLP issues, etc. I revisited Moses of Chorene on May 22 after I saw the page listed on the contributions of ], who I encountered at a discussion on ] (on an aside, I actually argued there that the ] (a 1992 Armenian massacre of Azeris) should be listed in ]). On the article history of Moses of Chorene, I noticed that an edit war had once again flared up, just hours after it had been unprotected by MSGJ. I protected the article to the current version – with no biases to the Azeri or Armenian sides of the dispute or the Armenian and Azeri editors involved. I'm sorry if the Azeris (and John) feel that I had been colluding against them. This clearly was not my attention. My policy has always been the same: I don't look kindly to editors who put their nationalist agendas ahead of building a neutral encyclopedia. <span style="background:white;color:#007FFF;font-family:Georgia;">] </span><sub>(])</sub> 22:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Statement by Gazifikator=== | |||
| I am lost as to why this case was filled, we actually found a compromise for the lead, and whatever version Nishkid locked the article to (why bring old woonds as John is doing), the results were clearly beneficial, a compromise before this day has never been achieved since my pariticipation on Misplaced Pages. Grandmaster's submition for third opinion was constructive which helped to find an acceptable wording for the lead. As The Diamond Apex has said, it's working, slowly but we're there. Pushing us in an arbitration case will have all our energy in that case rather than working on the article. | |||
| The Diamond Apex proposition on imposition restriction on articles rather than editors is great and Im willing to try his approach on two days involvement before having the right to make a revert. Everyone could be warned, then any new editors could be warned of that. This will fix a lot of problem and part of it seems to be currently voted on the ] case. We just need a motion about that, no need for a new case. ] (]) 05:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Statement by uninvolved PMAnderson=== | |||
| I have no intention of involving myself in ''this'' case; enough is enough. But the following (from the current English edition of ], now in the process of publication) may be helpful on the underlying content dispute: | |||
| :'''Moses of Chorene''' Influential Armenian historian. His three-volume ‘History of Armenia (Patmutiwn Hayoc ) describes the country's past from prehistoric times until the death of Mesrop Maštoc (439), the creator of the Armenian alphabet (Armenian). Attached is an epilogue lamenting the state of the country and its church at that time (bk. 3, ch. 68). Since M. refers to himself as a pupil of Mesrop (bk. 3, ch. 61), his book, which deals with the most varied sources (Armenian authors, Josephus Flavius, Eusebius of Caesarea, among others; overview in ), is frequently dated to the 5th cent. AD. Stylistic and thematic characteristics (support for the Armenian-Georgian dynasty of the Bagratids, first citation at the beginning of the 10th century etc.), however, argue for the 8th century.... | |||
| It goes on to cite Thomson's ''Bibliography of Classic Armenian Literature'' for the later date; and to explain that the ''Geography'' traditionally ascribed to Moses is probably 7th century. ] <small>]</small> 17:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| '''Update''': A proposal for mediation has been rejected . ] <small>]</small> 14:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Comment by Fedayee=== | |||
| Like the other editors I'm a bit lost here. What's the rationale with this request? Grandmaster fills it, then immediately afterward John replies with a recuse and strongly suggesting the case be accepted. I fail to understand how the article about Sisak is related with this particular recent conflict on Khorenatsi's datation, besides Khorenatsi having referred to Sisak in his work. Grandmaster about something which is related with territorial disputes. Someone somewhere, either John or Grandmaster, has to explain to other editors about that. John wasn't even involved with the article, other than loading Carrière's (who supports Grandmaster position) book out of the blue on wikisource and created his article while the dispute sparked in Khorenatsi's page. If there is anything related with territorial disputes behind the datation dispute as it seem obvious à priori for both Grandmaster and John, I have not seen it. I agree with Folantin when she writes: ''If John Vandenberg's supposition about the cause of this dispute (the Sisak (eponym) article) is correct, then that's yet more depressing evidence that all too many editors are seeing every article about Armenia and Azerbaijan on Misplaced Pages through the lens of the territorial dispute over Nagorno-Karabakh. I don't see how this benefits the general reader.'' Having chatted with both Eupator and MarshallBagramyan on the issue, not once have both shown any clue on the relation of that datation conflict and current territorial disputes. Just a side note, The Diamond Apex's proposal, of restricting articles to 1RR is great, it's been voted on the Macedonia case. This, plus a requirement of having engaged in the discussion, could benefit us all. Perhaps a motion? Because frankly, Grandmaster's request of opening a case and John's strong support of it is mind boggling. | |||
| '''Reply to NYB''': There are articles with are in worse shape out there, where consensus was never achieved. Now Grandmaster is dragging us in another case for the rare one which compromise was achieved (parties should receive barnstars for the compromise in the lead and advised to continue on that direction... not Arbcommed). For once something is working... requesting arbitration is like sabotaging it. All we need now is placing those articles on 1RR and requiring editors to be engaged in the discussion at least for two days before they be given the right of that one revert. Their engagement should include clear elements of what has been reverted with evidence that they've read and know the opposing argument. This will prevent SPA accounts to disrupt, as it was recently the case in other articles. All it takes is a motion. | |||
| PS: It should not be surprising that The Diamond Apex is calling himself uninvolved, he's been there for only three months and only recently started learning about how Misplaced Pages works. He must have assumed that since his name was not in the list of involved parties that this made him uninvolved. I think John is jumping the gun a little too quick, he should give a chance to a new user. - ] (]) 00:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ====Comment by Paul B==== | |||
| ] writes "I fail to understand how the article about Sisak is related with this particular recent conflict on Khorenatsi's datation." Please read the talk page of the ] article. You will see that the Moses' dates are being used there in an argument about a quotation, the presence of which on the page was disputed. The author of the quotation, ], asserted quite strongly that "Sisak" is a purely mythical person, on the grounds that the name "Sisak" is a late invention "unknown to Armenian historiography before the seventh century A.D". Since Moses mentions Sisak, if his writings date from the 5th century, this would imply that references to "Sisak" exist ''before'' the seventh century, and - I assume - imply that Moses may have used historical documents that identified a real Sisak, thus supporting the essential accuracy of Armenian national foundation stories. In contrast, if the later date is correct, his stories become...problematic. How this is related to the modern Nagorno-Karabagh dispute is only too obvious if one reads the current version of our ]. ] (]) 11:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Statement by uninvolved Brandmeister=== | |||
| Though an involved part in AA matter, I edited Moses only one or two times in total. Having read the associated talk page some time ago I believe the dating criticism did not come out of nowhere. Some parts of Armenian historiography are criticised even by scholars of Armenian heritage such as the aforementioned Hewsen. At the same time the staunch group advocacy of Armenian issues is common not only in Misplaced Pages and sometimes this advocacy hits the ground. Even when the third-parties like Dbachmann come to assist they could be discarded by several Armenian users. I'm against the enforcement over disputed articles, proposed by The Diamond Apex and supported by Gazifikator since this is a quite plausible indicator that both editors failed to advocate further. I don't want the Moses issue to serve as a scarecrow for all other AA topics, especially when there are few knowledgeable users to help. Lastly, I would like just to point out that the article's protection is not the endorsement of the current version. ]] 06:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Statement by marginally involved Paul B=== | |||
| I became involved in this briefly after the issue was raised on the Fringe theories board, which I frequent (see ]). This followed several earlier problems raised at the board which concerned "Armenian nationalist" versions of history. Though I have encountered these is some of the articles on my watchlist, I was at the time wholly ignorant of Moses of Chorene. I also had no idea why the question of his living in the 5th or 8th century would matter to either Armenians or Azeris. At the time the article asserted as undisputed fact that Moses was a fifth century writer. Considerable effort had to be made to even allow the acknowledgement that there is a widespread view that he dates from later. The "pro 5th century" editors repeatedly attempted to assert that the view that he was from a later date depended on outdated or idiosyncratic scholarship, despite the fact that this seems to be the standard view. My own intervention comprised a few reverts away from the version of the article that asserted baldly that he was a 5th century writer. I also made some talk page comments and read a short book in English by an Armenian historian which intervened in the dispute. However, as I do not speak Armenian nor could I comment in detail on the scholarship in question, I then left the article. My impression was that a group of editors were attempting to assert that mainstream western scholarship had been supplanted by recent, mainly Armenian, authors, whose view of this writer's date should be given preference. ] (]) 11:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| === Clerk notes === | |||
| :''This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.'' | |||
| === Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/1/1/2) === | |||
| *'''Recuse''' per ] '''''and''''' because it seems like I instigated this mess by creating the article "]". As far as I can recall, my version was neutral, and I have stayed out of this dispute (I am more interested in ]), but I wont object to being named as a party if someone can demonstrate I contributed to this dispute. Either way, I will submit a statement urging the committee to accept this case. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 06:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''': I'd appreciate brief comments from other parties on Gazifikator's suggestion that the dispute might be working itself out without the need for arbitration. ] (]) 17:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''': I'm of the same mind as NYB. Right now I'm not sure if it needs acceptance. ] 18:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Decline'''; this appears to be strictly a content dispute, and I very much doubt there is anything the committee could do. I would ''strongly'' recommend that mediation be attempted given that the entire dispute seems to revolve around one or two points of disputed fact. — ] <sup>]</sup> 12:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
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