Talk:History of Belarus: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 20:16, 1 December 2005 editGhirlandajo (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers89,629 edits →Re:13 ← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 21:51, 30 November 2024 edit undoGiraffer (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers14,666 editsm Reverted edits by 77.221.91.228 (talk) (HG) (3.4.10)Tags: Huggle Rollback
(545 intermediate revisions by 49 users not shown)
Line 1:		Line 1:
			{{talkheader}}
	==Rydel vs. Anon==
			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=C\|vital=yes\|1=
	I don't want to quarrel with anyone, especially that some of us are somehow touchy. However, in a recent tiny edit war Rydel changed back ] to ]. What was the difference between the two and which one of the two was actually used there? I was always taught that it was ] rather than its archaic form (]) or ] (whatever that is, none of my books mentions such a language so I assume it must be some alternative name for Old Ruthenian used by Belarusians nowadays). ]]]] 15:51, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
			{{WikiProject Belarus\|importance=high}}
			{{WikiProject Russia\|importance=High\|hist=yes}}
			{{WikiProject History\|importance=mid}}
			{{WikiProject European history\|importance=mid}}
			}}

			==Few more questions==
	This was only ''one'' of the several words that anonymous Samogitian has changed. Of course the anonymous Samogitian used the word ] because that's what they call Old Belarusian in Lithuanian. I guess the reasons for that are obvious. The "linguistic nationalism" of Lithuania is really scared of the new Belarusian nationalism, because both peoples lived together in peace in a single state for 500 years, and both peoples called themselved "Lithuanians" in their own tongues, but then thanks to certain events Samogitian (modern Lithuanian) nation took 100% of the old Lithuanian heritage, without wanting to share it with the modern Belarusians who have exactly the same share in that old Lithuanian heritage (or perhaps even more than the modern "Lithuanians"). Anyway, I am drifting away from the topic. So Lithuanians, the modern ones, want to delete any mention of the Belarusian nation. One of the things they do in their high school history books, they never use the term ], but they use the term "Old Slavonic language used purely for chancellory paper needs", something like that. And of course, using the term ] ''in English'' is even more incorrect, because that refers to a totally different language (click on the link). As for the differences between ] and ], there are none. This is a reference to the same thing. So in Belarus the latter term is used, and I guess in English the former one is more widely spread. I think either term is OK, but I like Old Belarusian better, because when we say Old Ruthenian (or, especially! Old Russian), most people think it has something to do with Russian, while in fact it has very little to do with modern-day Russian and modern-day Russians. This is some language that was used in Ruthenia. When Russian empire took us over, the written traditions were suppressed. There was a gap, a hiatus, so we can't say there was an uniterrupted flow of development from that language to modern-day Belarusian. That's one argument I see against using the term "Old Belarusian". The second reason not to use the term "Old Belarusian" is because some Ukrainians say that their language also had exactly the same language as a basis. So these are the two arguments against using "Old Belarusian", but both of them can be disproved. First, there is a direct and undeniable link between the language of Francis Skaryna's "Biblija Ruska" (Ruthenian (Old Belarusian) Bible) and the modern language of Belarus. And there are numerous treatises showing the direct connection. It's a long topic, and I just don't have time to write a Ph.D. here, but I guess you are getting my point: using "Old Slavonic" is simply wrong. Using "Old Ruthenian" and "Old Belarusian" is fine, and in my opinion "Old Belarusian" is a bit better, more appropriate and logical term to use. --] 23:19, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
	:A point to add: it is simply ridiculous to say that some common "Old Ruthenian language" was spoken from Black to Baltic seas and from White to Mediterranean seas. Of course, the written variants were closer to each other, but it is simply because those who "wrote" learned to do this from a very limited set of texts. Written language was never driving force of vernacular at these times, unlike today, when kids learn to read earlier than to speak :-). (not to say baout TV) It was exactly vice versa at these old times. And it is only natural to say that in the relatively well-defined territory of Belarus there was "Old Belarussian language". And the languages of Moscow, Vladimir and Novgorod differed from each other as well. And only because of pre-conceived idea of a "common old Russian language" was the reason of confusion and fuss about the "real" (?) language of ], of Skaryna's Bible (who, by the way, called its language "russki"), or of some other manuscripts.
	:Thusly, IMO ] is a linguistic abstraction, a step in the direction from "real" languages towards the "reconstructed" "proto-indo-european language". 00:59, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

			First:
	:::I'm a Slavic languages freak so you don't have to explain the basics to me. No need to write a PhD here :) Anyway, to me the name ] seems like a synonym to ] coined by present-day Belarussians rather than a linguistic, commonly accepted term ("Belarussian linguistic nationalism", as you'd put it). It's not that those cruel Samogitians fail to accept a simple truth, it's that barely anyone accepts it (, ).

	:::As a matter of fact the language spoken "east of present-day Poland, west of present-day Russia" back in ] to ] was spoken by more peoples than only the predecessors of modern Belarussians. That's exactly why there are so many similarities between modern Ukrainian and Belarussian languages, not only in grammar, but also in phonetics and even vocabulary. Following your logic we'd have to admit that large part of what is now Ukraine spoke Old Belarussian back then. That's why I prefer Old Ruthenian to Old Belarussian - it's simply much broader and at the same time much more precise. I also agree with you that the language used by Skaryna could be called Old Belarussian. But IMO the present Ukrainians have exactly the same right to call it Old Ukrainian. In terms of linguistic similarities one could also say that (G*d forgive me) it was Old Rusyn... Get the point?

			''into the multi-ethnic Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia, with its capital initially in Horodno, later in Navahradak (now in western Belarus) and finally in Vilnia.''
	:::As to the geographical dispersion of the language - of course you are right that the term "Old Ruthenian language" does not cover all "Eastern Slavic languages", but it was predecessor to more than one modern language and it had many dialects back then (as most languages on earth have), but these were more of dialects than separate languages. Similarly, back in the times of formation of GDL there was still little or no difference between Polish and Czech languages. Sometimes for simplicity's sake the language spoken around Poznan or Kraków in 10th century is referred to as Old Polish, but in fact the Old Polish language (''Staropolszczyzna'') was formed between ] and ].

	:::As a side note, I have no idea why on earth ] redirects to ] and not the other way around. All in all I'd propose a following solution:
	* Move ] to ]
	* Place redirects from ], ], ] and ].
	* Fix most of the related articles to point at ] rather than to locally-used synonyms.

			When did ] became only ] and ]? Did not missed - ]?
	:::We had a huge, common linguistic family back then. Time to be proud of it and stop concealing it under artificial nationalist terms. Don't you think? ]]]] 02:10, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

	::Mission accomplished. ]]]] 22:06, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

			Horodno as a capital Grand Duchy of Lithuania? When?
	I suppose "Old Slavonic language" is slightly more accurate alternative to "Old Belarusian language" - first, the term "Belarus" first appeared in late 19 century; second (and more important) the official written language of GDL wasn't always a dialect from nowadays Belarus - for instance, Vytautas (Vytovt) chancellery used rather "Ukrainian" dialect. I would go for "Old Slavonic", unless strong counter-arguments provided. ]
			If you writing capitals of Grand Duchy of Lithuania write all of them – Trakai ] ] ; not only which you like!

	== Belarusian states - Novohradek ==

			Second:
	Please support your theory about Novohradek being the first capital city of GDL. Mindouh (Mindovg, Mindaugas) never had a capital city (at the time residence of a Duke wasn't stable); the 'capital' was first stabilised by Grand Duke (or Prince) Gedimin (Gediminas), and it wasnt Novohradek. Its of cause a historical dispute, but Novohradek teory has never been proved. ]

			''Initially mostly Ruthenian and Orthodox, with time most of them became polonized. This was especially true for major magnate families (Sapieha and Radziwiłł clans being the most notable)''
	: It seems nobody can provide any evidence about Novohradek as capital of Lithuania, therefore I remove this part from the article as incorrect.] 18:27, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

	==Russian Occupation==
	Is this a joke? This is history of Belarus not Poland. What's the point of even saying where did the other Polish areas went after the partition (and giving it more than 3/4 of the section), and the only other area was of course national uprisings. Independence and freedom? The uprisings were led by Poles not Belarussians. I am putting an NPOV on this article right now.] 23:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

			Do you really think that ] family represents Orthodox? Family started from ] (]) and later developed into 3 branches – ]–] (Protestant branch), Olyka and Nieswiez (catholic branch); and a branch which died out very soon - Goniadz–Medele (catholic branch)
	==Excellent source==

			M.K.
	Have a read here. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/arhiv/050513111111

			----
	==Asking for a source==
	''After Orthodox communities were disbanded by Polish administration, the use of Belarusian language was increasingly discouraged or suppressed.''
	Please give an objective source-Commowealth was known for its religious tolerance.
	--] 12:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	:Actually, the Polish Empire was known to all the world outside Poland for its intolerance. Or do you think Bohdan rebelled because he had nothing else to do? Follow the link provided above and you will get a picture. Even the previous Polonophile version of the article admitted that Belarusian was replaced with Polish by 1696. --] 12:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	''Even the previous Polonophile version of the article admitted that Belarusian was replaced with Polish by 1696.''
	I am not asking about that.Even so in regards to language you would have to say if it was ordered, by cultural repression or natural process.
	--] 13:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

			== Pov removed ==
	== Latest edits, factual dispute and POV problems ==

			I've removed two highly pov sections from the paragraph "Republic of Belarus. Communist economy in a political democracy." Most of the section read like a paranoid crusade to dismiss certain views on Belarus, and like a massive defense of Lukashenko. The phrases I've removed are:
	Lately Ghirlandajo and Kuban Kazak have completely rewritten parts of this article and I'm afraid part of the new version is a huge POV, intended to present the Polish rule in what is now Belarus in as bad light as possible, while at the same time claiming that Belarusians are in fact ]ns. In particular, I see a problem with the following (see below)
			*"...radical right wingers use to call Belarus "the last dictatorship in Europe", a propaganda cliche used against left wing governments by private owned enterprises lobbying for its appropiation of public owned state controlled resources." (the reference for this claim is a news forum btw, which doesn't meet our ] guidelines.
			*"...representative of frustrated capitalist interests in privatization of public enterprises. Under Lukashenko Belarus has seen economical prosperity with continuity of state control of the economy ("communism"). Eighty percent of the economy of Belarus remains under state control, just as it was in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Belarus. This is irritating to right-wingers, such as many in "the West" who fear that the example of Belarus demonstrates viability of communism in comparison to Russia´s experience with privatization and subsequent corruption and stealing of public resources."
			]] <sup>No running, shouting or ] in ]</sup> 18:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

			== Expanding this? ==
	Altogether, I believe the aproblems mentioned above need to be solved before we remove the dispute tag. BTW, I organized the list so that it was easier to respond '''below''' my comment. ]] 20:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

			Hi folks. This article looks in dire need of re-writing and expanding, to me. What are the current hotspots here? ] 11:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
	:Nope. The current version makes it clear that Belarusians are not Poles, that's all. The previous pro-Polish version, on the other hand, made no difference between the history of Poland and history of Belarus. There's no denying that. --] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

			== Belarusian Soviet Republic and West Belarus ==
	Ghirlando, your of my edit is very discouraging. I have provided sources for my additions, but you delete this, along with useful interlinks I made, with a justification no different then a thinly veiled personal attack.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 23:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

			The same number of lines described language limitations in Poland and mass extermination in Soviet Belarus. POV.] 08:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
	::All right.... I asked for your comments to be posted '''below''' mine. However, as someone decided to ignore my plea, I removed all the alien comments from mine and divided the discussion onto separate sections. That way we'll have less problems with following the discussion and who says what. I guess it was not his intention, but thanks to Ghirlandajo for some time all of my comments were subscribed under his name, as if he was agreeing with me. Anybody else finds it as funny as I do?

			== including practically all its intellectual elite ==
	::As to specific concerns - see below. ]] 00:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			So the intelectual elite murdered in 1937 died for the second time? ] 08:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
	:::Piotr, my step-by-step edits, although I had justified each minor edit in summaries which you apparently didn't care even to follow, let alone to answer. --] 09:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			== Polish population often collaborated with German occupation administration. ==
	::Yeah, right, '']''... Anyway, instead of calling Poles with extremely offensive words in the edit histories you could take some time to reply to the questions raised. Or apologize to people you offend. ]] 09:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			The same "Belarus population often collaborated with German occupation administration". ] 08:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
	:::Halibutt, I see that it's your favourite strategem to endlessly beg for apologies, while failing to address issues raised above. There are several Russian sayings, most of them unquotable, to the following effect: На обиженных воду возят. This short maxim may incidentally explain to you several sinister turns of the Polish history, which you seem to particularly bother about. ] (as I had the privilege of being styled by one of your courteous friends in an edit summary several hours ago) 09:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			== In total, Belarus lost a quarter of its pre-war population in the Second World War ==
	::Was it before or after you styled him a ]? Also, so far I adressed all the questions here, so there's no such ''strategem'' here. And I still demand at least a word of excuse, if an apology is too much for you. Calling people Polacks is not the way I want to be styled and I did not deserve to be offended by you. Or perhaps you see this differently? ]] 13:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			False, Belarus had more population after the war than before it.] 08:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC). If 'after the war' means 40 years after -- this makes sense... the whole article on belarus seems to be written by non-natives, and has lots of false statements...
	:::I actually didn't know that the term is considered offensive in Poland. "He smote the sleaded Polack on the ice" (Shakespeare, ''Hamlet''). Anyway, I don't remember having called Cadet this name. Please provide a citation.--] 13:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			== Ethnos ==
	::The term is clearly offensive to Poles. And your good English suggests that your supposed ignorance about the fact is false. ]] 15:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			The word 'ethnos' is pretentious use of Greek, needless, and is not good English. Is the phrase 'ethnic group' not politically correct enough already? And what is wrong with 'the Belarussian people'? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:::Firstly, I applied it to a 17th-century personage. At that time, the word was frequently applied to the Poles, otherwise you should bowdlerize Shakespeare. Secondly, you and your friends frequently (ab)use the term Muscovy, which is considered offensive in Russia, on the basis that it used to be widespread in the 17th century. I don't see why you can use Muscovy anywhere you want and I can't use Polacks when alluding to the period, even in a summary. --] 15:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			== 1812 ==
	::No, Ghirlandajo, in modern English calling a Pole ''Polack'' is not like calling Muscovy ''Московия'' in Russian. It's like calling a Russian ''Vodka Pisser''. And you know it. End of topic, case closed. ]] 15:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			Szlachta (gentry) joined Napoleon's army - not mentioned here . (be-tarsk) Беларуская шляхта ў часе вайны 1812 году падтрымала Напалеона,] (]) 14:29, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
	:::Huh, Halibutt, my opinion of your general culture degrades daily. A fortnight ago you announced that any person who "speaks Russian, drinks vodka and sings Katyusha - he's a Russian". Now we get a prettier definition of a Russian from you - "Vodka Pisser". Abuse of such racist stereotypes already cost you an adminship and it probably still motivates your agressive behaviour on Russia-related articles. --] 16:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
			:References, please. It is a known fact that Polish nobility hoped for liberation from Russia by Napoleon. There is no such thing as "Belarusian '']''". Nobility is national concept, not ethnic. Nationalistic be-tarsk is poor source for historical facts, since it is skewed into exaggeration of Belarusian glory. - üser:Altenmann ] 16:11, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
	Sorry but you are using personal attacks of the worst kind. Halibutt never announced things you say, he only remarked that a persone from the West my have an '''innacurate''' stereotype of Russian. Furthermore he didn't call in this talk nobody names just showed what would be the equivalent of insults you use against Polish people.
			::''Nobility is national concept, not ethnic.'' - any sources? What about ]? Members of gentry joined nationalistic anti-Polish movements, see Romer family, ]. Four brothers were Lithuanian, Polish and Belarus (two Iwanowski-s, ], Ivanoŭski). The main division in Belarus was religious (Roman Catholic against Orthodox) rather than national.] (]) 08:13, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
	--] 16:21, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			== ''The usage of Belarusian language'' ==
	:Molobo, his (and Piotrus's) unwaning support and encouragement of your disruptive behaviour says it all. Tell me who is your friend, and I'll tell you who you are. --] 16:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			Which ''Belarusian language'' 1920-1939? There existed at least two dialects, not mentioning ]. In another words - the Polish government didn't support unification of Belarusian language, was it oblidged to do it? Does Lithuanian government support unification of Polish language in Lithuania today, in the EU?] (]) 08:21, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
	===Re: 1===

			== Piasecki ? ==
	# ''During the period of Polish rule (1569-1795), trade passed into the hands of ] and ] who settled primarily in the cities, while the rural population remained predominantly Ruthenian (Belarusian).'' - in fact the trade was a domain of Jews and Armenians even before, as hardly any noble, be it Polish ] or Ruthenian ]s, saw trade as something honourable. And most of the trade remained in Jewish or Armenian hands even afterwards, until 19th century. ]]

			The page is about History of Belarus. The Piasecki paragraph should be rewritten or removed.] (]) 10:21, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
	: This phrase should be moved to the previous section on GDL, that's all. Ghirlandajo

			== the Nazis attempted to establish ==
	::Well, I believe it should be either explained or deleted. It was neither something typical for Poland or for Lithuania, it happened everywhere in Europe and there it should rather be explained as a migration, not the way you did it so as to suggest that someone ''gave'' the trade to Jews and ''took'' it from someone. ]] 23:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

			But they established in 1943.] (]) 10:40, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
	:::So you think that the article on History of Belarus should omit the fact that Belarusians were banished by Poles and Jews to live in the fields? I have to disagree here. Jewish/Polish occupation of Belarusian cities is a key factor in national history, which explains glaring absence of Belarusian nobility, intelligentsia and freedom movement since the 17th century onward. Also, Belarusian Jews - such as ], not to mention all those ]ers and ]s - played a vital part in the culture of Eastern (you prefer to call it Central) Europe. --] 09:15, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			== POV ==
	::::Provide evidence for your claims and I might reconsider. However, unless you provide evidence that someone purposedly prohibited Ruthenians from trade or that the 19th century Jew named ] could not start his career in Russia because of 16th century Polish rule, I believe this edit to be both incorrect and malicious. ]] 11:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			This article presents Belarus POV. History of minorities (Poles, Jews) should be described.] (]) 08:12, 17 February 2016 (UTC) The article lacks references since 2012.] (]) 08:13, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
	:::::Sorry, I don't understand what you are talking about. Where did I say that "Ruthenians" as you call them were "prohibited" from trade. These fantasies are your own. --] 11:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	::So how about replacing the statement above with something like: ''Throughout their existence as a separate culture, Ruthenians (Belarusians) formed in most cases rural population, with the power held by local ] and ]. Also, as in the rest of Central Europe the trade and commerce were mostly monopolized by Armenians and Jews, who formed a large part of the urban population in what is now Belarus''? ]] 14:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	===Re: 2===
	# ''Belarusian language was relegated to secondary positions'' - not really, although Polish was preferred by the Polish-speaking nobles, whatever their religion was. Also, we should rather be speaking of Ruthenian, which was in use back then, and not Belarusian, which was formed in its modern sense in 19th century. ]]
	#:This I quite agree with, being one of the initiators of this strange wikiterm - ]. Other articles, however, - such as ] - operate with the term "Belarusian language" or "Old Belarusian", and we can do little to mend this. --] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	::So how about simply mentioning that ''Despite of the actual language of the population of the Commonwealth, in the GDL the chancery language was ], which is a predecessor of modern Belarusian and Ukrainian languages. In XXXX the official chancery language was replaced with Polish, more commonly spoken by the upper classes.''? It would be more correct, less POV and definitely based on actual knowledge... ]] 00:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::There's no denying that Belarusian has been dimissed as a dialect of peasants, whereas the Polish (and then Russian) was the language of education and government. There is no need to dissimulate the facts with pointless wordsmithship. --] 09:21, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	::So why to create facts that never happened? I doubt anyone spent any efforts to limit its importance, contrary to what you suggest. There was no activity directed against it, rather lack of interest on the side of higher classes, that's all. ]] 11:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::Lack of interest on the side of higher classes? Because higher classes were completely polonized. If the higher classes are Polish catholics, of course they have little interest in Orthodoxy and Belarusian language. It would have been weird if Yankee colonists started to adopt native American worship and language. --] 11:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	::::Of course, the polonization, russification or lithuanization of the higher classes was part of the problem. However, the language of the Ruthenians (as you called them in the part of the article quoted above) was not ''relegated'' from anything to anywhere. It was simply not used by the people who had the power. Not using one's brain is not equal to relegating it anywhere. ]] 12:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	===Re: 3===
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://expo2000.bsu.by/main.idc?id=500&id2=500
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120704083750/http://www.radabnr.org/indexen.html to http://www.radabnr.org/indexen.html

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	# ''Eastern Orthodox peasantry was converted to ] against their will.'' complete rubbish, probably backed by Great Soviet Encyclopedia or some Russian 19th centurish source. Contrary to 19th century Russia, nobody forcibly converted anyone in PLC (perhaps apart from isolated cases where a local gentry member was strongly against the Orthodox faith. However, it wasn't until 19th century that any church was forbidden on these lands - and it was the Uniate church, not Orthodoxy (strongly supported by Russia). ]]
	#:This i'm not in position to comment upon, as the phrase was not added by me. As best I understand, however, it was impossible to make a successful career in the PLC or to get a government appointment, if you were not a Roman Catholic. There are innumerable monographs on these religious issues, both pro-Catholic and pro-Orthodox, which interested parties may cite in the article. --] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	#::Source http://www.pravoslavie.ru/arhiv/050513111111 - ] 22:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	#:::Although I have no sources for this ATM, from what I read this was very rare, if happened at all (] actions?). Szlachta usually left peasants to their own doings, this is why after ] Russian religious minorities esacaped to Poland. Would you have any sources about religious persecutions of Ruthenian peasnaty? What Ghirlandajo writes about career is true when reffering to the 17th century, where due to ] obsession with Catholicism the ] was seriously undermind (for example, he gave official titles only to the Catholics). Also, ] was his idea, and although there were no violent persecutions, for example Catholics (and Unionists) got more prominent places for their churches and such.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 22:51, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	EB is not ''the source'' like the chronicles are but it is peer reviewed to conform the mainstream historiographic view.
	'''From EB's history of Belarus''':
	:''Although Lithuania retained the title of grand duchy and its code of laws, its western province Podlasia, which had been heavily settled by Polish colonists, was ceded to Poland, as were the steppe lands and Kiev. Among the Belarusian population a mainly Polish-speaking Roman Catholic aristocracy developed, but the peasantry on the whole remained Orthodox. In 1596 the Union of Brest-Litovsk signaled an attempt to unify the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches in the Polish-Lithuanian state The rule of the Polish landowners was often heavy and unpopular, and many Belarusians (especially those opposed to joining the Eastern-rite church) fled to the steppe lands that were home to the Cossacks. Large-scale Cossack-led revolts occurred in 1648–54, but the Belarusian lands remained under Poland until the reign of Catherine II (the Great) of Russia (1762–96). Economic development was slow, especially in the extensive Pripet Marshes. The Belarusian population was almost entirely engaged in agriculture, while trade lay in the hands of Poles and Jews.''

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 01:52, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
	'''From EB's history of UA'''
	:''"...Ukraine was “colonized” by both Polish and Ukrainian great nobles. Most of the latter gradually abandoned Orthodoxy to become Roman Catholic and Polish. These “little kings” of Ukraine controlled hundreds of thousands of “subjects”... The new Eastern-rite church became a hierarchy without followers while the forbidden Eastern Orthodox church was driven underground. Wladyslaw's recognition of the latter's existence in 1632 may have come too late. The Orthodox masses—deprived of their native protectors, who had become Polonized and Catholic—turned to the Cossacks. The heavy-handed behaviour of the “little kings,”... was resented even by small nobles and burghers. Growing socioeconomic antagonisms combined with religious tensions." ''

			== External links modified ==
	So much about "equality" of Orthodoxy with Catholicism. What surprizes me is that this discussion pops up from talk page to talk page with not just Britannica, but some historians sited too, and then we get this all over again about the myth on the religious freedom and equality in PLC as well as about the ], indeed an amazing document for its time, being realized in full on the ground (which it wasn't). --] 00:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	::Sure, I agree with almost all of the above, especially when speaking about the times of the Vasas, which were surely the worst kings we ever had (even Stanisław August was better). However, who converted the Orthodox people by force? When? How? And if the Orthodox church was illegal, then why where there Orthodox churches built? ]] 00:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:::Are sure they were built in the first decades of the 17th century? Examples, please. --] 09:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060312232518/http://www.promemoria.org.pl/arch/2004_15/2004_15.html to http://www.promemoria.org.pl/arch/2004_15/2004_15.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090104041533/http://www.rw.by/index.php/.106....0.0.0.html to http://www.rw.by/index.php/.106....0.0.0.html

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	::::Again: who converted the Orthodox people by force? When? How? --] <sup>(])</sup> 09:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	:::::Why do you address this query to me? --] 09:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 14:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
	::::::Because you attempted to answer it but missed the point. --] <sup>(])</sup> 18:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			== "independent feudal consolidation" ==
	:::::::I did not "attempt to answer it" but said: "This i'm not in position to comment upon". Read above. Your rudeness is appaling. When you ran out of argument, Halibutt obliquely referred to me as a "vodka pisser", and your friend Space Cadet labelled me as a "stupid he-goat". Very well, I expect new and more outrageous insults. Unfortunately, your behaviour induces me to think that incivility is a national feature of the Poles. --] 18:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			I have no idea what this means. Or is supposed to mean. ] (]) 00:37, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
	I would need to look for the quotes, but from what I remember, it wasn't always illegal but it was always obstructed to different degrees. And yes, at times it was illegal. As for the times were Orthodoxy was allowed but suppresses, at some point, non-Roman churches were taxed, while the Roman ones were not. Also the permits to build new churches were denied. Besides, the church buildings were forcibly locked and the peasant had to pay a fee to obtain a key to baptized a child. Since the local managers, who kept the keys were often Jews, the idea of being forced to pay to a Jew to get a child baptized added to certain sentiments among Ukrainians and during the later revolts the Jews were slaughtered en masse together with the Poles. Of course most of the people slaughtered had nothing to do with the oppression and the Jews were largely oppressed themselves, but didn't have their own "Cossacks" to turn for protection. --] 01:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	EB seems to be quite correct here and we may want to incorporate some of their statements into our text. As I wrote, there might have been - there probably were - incident involving forced convertions, but they were rare. While Warsaw Compact promised religious tolerance, it was often abused, nonetheless the religious tolerance of the PLC was unprecedented for its time - which doesn't say it was as good as what we recognize as a standard today. In addition, if we are talking about religious tolerance and how Catholic Church was bullying the Orthodox (and Protestants) in the PLC, we should perhaps remmember how it was solved in the Muscovy: Russia simply banned Catholic Church. Anyway, the quite here is disputed because it implies that ALL Orthodox peasantry was forcibly converted (or at least it was a common happening) - which was not the case (feel free to provide sources indicating otherwise, or even documenting exeptions).--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 01:33, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	:Russia simply banned Catholic Church? If you followed a link supplied by Kuban Kazak, you would learn that there were periods when Russian adminsitration funded Polish ksiadzs at the expense of Russian Orthodox clergy. --] 09:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	''So much about "equality" of Orthodoxy with Catholicism.''
	The article don't say about repression, persecution only about "heavy handness", even colonisation is in the brackets. The articles seem to say that due to alienation of nobility from peasants problems developed not that the nobles persecuted the peasents as the current version tries to allege.
	--] 01:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re:4===
	# ''Despite severe repressions vibrant Belarusian culture flourished in the Orthodox communities of major Belarusian cities'' - this seems unsourced as well, not to mention the fact that it limits the Belarusian culture to Orthodox minority only and speaks not a word of the Uniate majority... or the Catholics, who also constituted a large part of what is now the Belarusian culture, be it material or spiritual. Also, a mention of Jews, Tatars and Armenians would be a good thing here IMO. ]]
	#:I know nothing about Armenian or Tatar culture in Belarus, so you are welcome to add data on these communities, if you think they were vitally important for Belarus. --] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	#::Memo to self: translate ].--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 22:51, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	#:::You may also want to translate ] :-) ] ] 22:56, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	#::::Tnx for that one, I didn't try this name (I did try ], ] and ]. I am going to create some redirects and interwiki links, of course - those article talk (mostly) of the same people.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 23:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	::This definitely needs to be added to the article. In the article on ] the ethnic and cultural mixture is well-described. So is the case with ]. Why not insert it here, in an article about one of the most culturally-diverse regions of the Commonwealth? ]] 00:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::...BTW, this also applies to point No.2, as both could be treated the same way. ]] 14:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re:5===

	# ''After Belarusian peasantry volunteered to take part in the anti-Polish movement led by ], deputations from several Belarusian towns arrived to ], asking the tsar for interference on their part'' - which also needs some source. And even if it was true, we should also mention thousands of people of Belarus who fought on the side of the Commonwealth against the rioters. ]]

	#:I provided a link to the GSE, which BTW is a perfectly valid source of historical data. As valid as scores of obscure Polish hack writers you regularly intoxicate your brains with. --] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

	:: First of all, please watch your language. There's a serious problem to be solved and suggesting that some sources ''intoxicate'' while others don't won't help us here.
	:: Then, where is the link you posted? It's definitely not here nor can I see it in the article
	:: Last but not least, the ] is not considered a credible source even by Misplaced Pages, not to mention modern historians. Could you please try to use some modern sources? ]] 00:20, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	The quote above from Britannica may help sort this out. --] 00:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	::Sure. But I still believe we should mention the other side of the story, not only the one presented in the current version. ]] 00:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	:::You should read the article more carefully or ask Piotrus who left the links in the text during his previous revert. If you assert that GSE is "not considered a credible source even by Misplaced Pages", you are bound to provide a link to appropriate section of Misplaced Pages Guidelines and then I will not quote it any more. On the other hand, if this statement is a personal opinion of Halibutt, Molobo, Rydel, and Co, you may continue gaping at your cheap propaganda booklets about alleged Russian massacres, which I daresay are "not considered a credible source even by Misplaced Pages" as well. --] 09:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	::::Believe me, I did read the article carefully before posting my comments. There's no need to suggest my ignorance or my bad faith. As to GSE - check the article on ]. If I were to find a more biased encyclopedia ever written I would have a serious trouble. As far as I remember, it reflected only the Russian POV mixed with Communist/Marxist propaganda - and that's what is mentioned even in the current wiki article on it. Pretty, pretty please, could you find some more acceptable source? Or at least post the link to the article in GSE you find relevant and unbiased? ]] 11:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	::::Three random samples of unbiased articles in the GSE: , , --] 12:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	::ROTFL :) For non-Russians who might find the links not that funny - they are articles on ''force interactions'' (electromagnetism, gravity and such), ''magnetic resonance'' and ''Charged particle accelerators''. Surely the abovementioned articles are relevant to the history of Belarus, after all the laws of physics work even there... Anyway, this only supports the statement by ], who at ] recently stated that ''Basing on this "source" you may contribute "successfully" to articles like USA, capitalism or Spanish Civil War as well. =) This encyclopediae can be used only as a source in 1. maths 2. history of propaganda.''. ]] 13:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re:6===


	''after Orthodox communities were disbanded by Polish administration'' - seems yet another absurd... Any proof of that? Which communities? Where? Why? When? ]] 00:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	:I don't know why my link to ] was deleted, but your complete ignorance of the phenomenon clearly indicates that Eastern Orthodoxy in Polish-occupied territories is still a closed book to you. The article about ] in ] has long been on my to-do list, but unfriendly developments in the ua segment of this project would probably prevent me from enlarging on this important issue in the nearest future. --] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	::] is a red link - could you elaborate on this? Does it have to to with ]? I plead ignorance in this case, and would be happy to learn more if you can provide some sources.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 22:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	:::Indeed, the idea of bratstvo is obscure to me, though your accusations of ignorance are hardly an argument in our discussion. Please, stick to facts and not to offences. Ok? ]] 00:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	::::Once again, check the links provided by me in the text of the article before crying murder. --] 09:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	::Which ones? Could you post the relevant link here? ]] 11:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::You are welcome: http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/008/001/134.htm --] 12:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	::Translation for non-Russians follows:

	<div style="align: center; padding: 1em; border: solid 1px #9966CC; background-color: AliceBlue;">'''Bratstvo'''s (brotherhoods) were Ukrainian and Belarussian national-religious organizations formed between 15th and 18th centuries at Orthodox churches in Ukraine, Belarus and parts of Lithuania for the fight against national suppression and forcible catholicization of Russians, Belarusians and Ukrainians of Orthodox faith. The first were founded in 15th century, although there were similar organizations formed in Lvov and Vilna even earlier, in Kamieniec Podolski and Rohatyń (1589), in Mohylów (1590), Brześć (1591), Przemyśl (1592) and other places. They were based on democratic principles. Every person who participated in the funding of the society could be its member. The main bulk of its members were burghers, although the clergy, ] and peasants were also admitted. In 1620 the Kievan bratstvo joined the Zaporizhian forces led by Sahaydachny. Their internal formation resembled mediaeval trade unions, the bratstvo had also their charters. (...) B. fought against Jesuit propaganda, and promotion of catholic and uniate rites in Ukraine and Belarus, they fought for national and cultural independence of these nations and maintained contacts with Russia, Moldavia and southern Slavs. B. led many cultural and educational facilities, among them schools and printing houses, with the ''cultural forces'' gathered around them. On the basis of the Kievan B. in ] a ] was formed. The schools formed a large number of writers, scientists, politicians, teachers, printers, and artists, who strengthened the links between Ukrainians and Belarusians with the Russian nation. Among them were ], ], ], ], ] and others.

	In 2nd part of the 17th and in 18th centuries, with the strenthening of feudal system, the role of B. in political activity gradually weakened. In Galicia and on the right bank of the Dnepr they entered in conflict with the clergy, while on the left bank they were forced to fulfill only religious and social tasks. B., still existant in certain village and municipal Orthodox churches even in 19th century, dropped their political and cultural activities, although they retained certain traditions of the earlier B. In late 19th and early 20th centuries some Orthodox church activists formed clerical organizations named Bratstva and referencing to their traditions, although these had nothing to do with the earlier but the name.

	Sources:
	* K. Guslistiy, Sketches from the History of Ukraine, in: ''Fight for the Liberation of the Ukrainian Nation from the Szlachta Poland in the Second Half of 16th and firts half of 17th centuries, Kiev, ].
	* Ya. D. Isayevich, Bratstva and their role in Development of Ukrainian Culture in 16th-18th centuries, Kiev, 1966
	* A. Yeremenko, Southern-Russian Bratstva in his ''Southern Rus''', ].</div>

	Now then, let me ask where does this article mention any oppression? If they were disbanded then how so many of them survived to 19th century? The only forcible limitations on their activity mentioned in this article took place in left bank Ukraine, that is... yes, you guessed it, in Russia. ]] 12:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	:And then let me ask you why should this article mention oppression? You asked what is bratstvo, and here you have an answer. Kudos for the translation, by the way, now we may start an article on ].--] 13:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	::Let's set some things straight then, you claimed that ''after Orthodox communities were disbanded by Polish administration'' something happened. I asked what communities were disbanded and you mentioned bratstvos as an example and provided this link to back your claims up. Sadly, there is nothing to support your claims there. ]] 13:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	:::Halibutt, your comments again prove that you haven't scrutinized the article at all. Please return to the text and check which links back up which claims. --] 13:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	::::I am afraid it is you who needs to quote the relevant part of the elink source to prove your claim.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 13:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	::You simply can't live without accusing others of being ignorant, can you... Let me rephrase my comment above in a last attempt to find some sort of a solution to your problems with abiding by the rules of wikiquette.

	::You that '''''Despite severe repressions''', vibrant Belarusian culture flourished in the <nowiki>]</nowiki>.'' and that '''''After Orthodox communities were disbanded''' by Polish administration, the use of Belarusian language was increasingly discouraged or suppressed.''. So, I asked what communities were disbanded and you clearly clarified here that you meant the bratstvos. When asked for sources you provided one Russian article that does not even mention their persecution in Poland, not to mention that it does not support your version that they were disbanded by anyone. So, please be so kind as to provide some other source that would back your claims up. ]] 14:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	In addition the article uses as source propaganda material from Tsarists and Stalinist regime.
	I already provided link explaining how history under both regimes was falsified.
	--] 16:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re:7===

	# ''By the ] the rapacity of Polish nobles plunged the country into ], making the once powerful empire vulnerable to foreign influence. Eventually Poland was ], which meant that Belarusians were reunited with majority of their Orthodox East Slavic brethren.'' - now that is entirely a Russian POV, with ''unification of all Slavic brethren'' sounding like a perfect example of 19th century pan-Slavist propaganda and trying to blame Poland herself for the imperial politics of Russia or Prussia is what Russian historians were trying to do throughout the 19th century. It seems especially disturbing that a perfectly valid paragraph was replaced with this text. Before the latest changes it went like this: ''The independence of the Commonwealth ended in a series of ] (], ] and ]) undertaken by ], ] and ], with Russia gaining most of the Commonwealth's territory including nearly all of the former ] (except ] and lands West from ]), ] and ]. (...) The last heroic attempt to save the state's independence was a Polish-Belarusian-Lithuanian national uprising (]) led by ], however it was eventually quenched.''. While not perfect, it was definitely less one-sided. ]]
	#:As was pointed out by other editors before, this passage belongs to ] rather than to ]. It is irrelevant to the article on Belarus which provinces of Poland were taken by Prussia and which by Austria. Halibutt, we are all aware of your sado-masochistic pleasure at endlessly repeating how innocent Poles were abused and "massacred" by bad guys from Russia and Germany, but the article on Belarusian history is definitely a wrong place to indulge in this kind of guilty pleasures. --] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	#:It's pleasant to see you in the same league with Molobo once again, joining Molobish hysterical fears of "19th-century pan-Slavist propaganda". It's a pity, however, that the great pan-Slavists - Safarik, Kostomarov - cannot respond to these slurs. Rephrasing your own words, the whole polish segment of en.wiki is an ongoing attempt to blame Russia and Germany for all the crap proliferating in Poland. Anyway, you should be aware that editors of other nationalities are not bound to tolerate Polish hysterics. Perhaps it's time to review tons of russophobic bullshit that were spawned by you, Molobo, Emax, Cadet, and Co here in the previous years. --] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	#::You fail to provide any arguments but ] and ]. Please, back up your claims with sources or aplogize for your accusations.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 22:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::Indeed, some apologies would be in place. And again, Ghirlandajo, I ask you to reply to my questions, not to what you think of me personally or of my nationality. Stick to the topic and we'll end this matter quickly. As to the main topic: indeed, the previous version was not perfect as it was too long and could be shortened to mention only the parts grabbed by Russia. However, I still fail to understand how the current passage is better. ]] 00:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re: 9===

	# ''Following the ] emperor ]'s defeat of Prussia, the ] was again set up under French tutelage. Belarusian peasants, however, fiercely resisted the renewed Polish ascendancy. '' - I beg your pardon? The French recreated the GDL? Any sources for that? Apart from that, we should also mention the Belarusians that fought against the Russian yoke side by side with Poles and Napoleon. Otherwise we'd have only one side of the story mentioned. ]]
	:I don't care who added this idiotic passage to the article. Check the history. I'm not aware of any Belarusians fighting against what you call the Russian yoke, however. On the other hand, Poniatowski's army was full of Polish nobles who deplored the loss of their estates and peasants in Belarus, but these were Poles not Belarusians.--] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	::So, this could be deleted, right?
	::As to your comments - I seriously doubt it. In fact by then hardly any noble lost a single serf or village in the east. Instead, the Polish magnates even strengthened their rule over the peasants as in Russia they had even more rights than in PLC or Poland. That's why the pro-Napoleonic uprising in Lithuania was much weaker and mostly popular, contrary to what Mickiewicz suggests. Simply the upper classes had little interest in supporting the French, contrary to the peasants and burghers. ]] 00:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re: 10===

	''They were active in ] movement against Napoleon's occupation and ] the remains of the ] when it crossed the ] in November ].'' - Battle of Berezina was not carried out by guerillas but by regular Russian army under Kutuzov ]]
	:So now you deny that there was a Belarusian guerilla movement against Napoleon's invasion? Probably Polish books are silent about that.--] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	::Please re-read my question above and try to reply to what is written there, not to what you have in mind. ]] 00:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re: 11===

	''Although under ] and ] the national cultures were repressed in attempt to "de-polonise" the population which included the return of the population to Orthodoxy,'' - and why not to mention the fact that the Russians delegalized the Uniate church and forcibly converted all Uniates to Orthodoxy? Also, the mention of the ] and ], both the most active in modern lands of Belarus, was erased by someone. Why? I guess it was removed because it doesn't fit the scheme of ''happy loyal Russian subjects'' and the ''angry Polish ]s persecuting their slaves'', though I admit there might've been some other reason. ]]
	:We've seen for so many months how you imagine the Belarusian history should look like: perfect equality of "Ruthenians" with Poles in the PLC, rapturous mass conversions of Belarusians to Uniatism and Papism, the so-called Deluge which claimed the lives of every 3rd citizen of the Commonwealth, and three glorious rebellions. Sorry, all this doesn't belong to the article on Belarus. Belarusians were peasants, and quite indifferent to all three rebellions too. The history of Poland and BElarus is not the same, and you have to live with it. It is really disturbing that you Poles still treat Belarus as it were still your colony, just like 250 years ago.--] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	::You're more than one? I thought you were a single Ghirlandajo, and not multiple people... Anyway, you did not reply to my suggestions. And '''please''' do not offend me. This article is about the place in the world called Belarus, not on the ]. Hence it should include the histories of all the peoples living there together with the East Slavs. Yes, including the Poles. And again, if you see the conversion to Uniate rite which took 300 years as forcible, then why don't you see re-conversion of the entire nation to Orthodoxy as equally forcible, eventhough it took 10 minutes (a single ])? ]] 00:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re: 12===

	''Belarusian economy was booming, particularly after the ] in ]. Peasants sought a better lot in large industrial centres, with some 1,500,000 people leaving Belarus in half a century preceding the ].'' - again, if a 4th part of the local population leaves for Poland, Germany or America, then perhaps the economy was not as booming as someone portrays it here. ]]
	:Data on booming economy is taken from Britannica 2004, but you are free to prove that the economy of late 19th-century Belarussia was in fact as stagnant as that of 18th-century Polish Lithuania. The facts show, however, that Polish economy had never been more prosperous in any other period of its history than at the turn of the 20th century. --] 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	::Sadly, I don't have the EB04 at hand. Anyone care to provide the relevant part? As to Polish economy blooming in early 20th century - I seriously doubt it. Of course, there was a period of fast industrialization, but overall Poland was one of the poorest lands in Europe back then. It would be hard to decide whether the ever-starving Galicia and Lodomeria was poorer than rural and unindustrialized Belarus back then, though I doubt such a choice is to be made here. Anyway, you still did not reply to my question: if the economy was so blooming, then why the hell some 25% of the entire land left for other places? Perhaps they were not happy with the joyful rule of the tsar? Or perhaps they felt the factories are too loud? ]] 00:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::Halibutt, honestly, your ignorance is startling. Have you ever heard about ]? Have you ever heard that it was accompanied by wide-scale migration of rural population to the urban industrial centres? Have you ever heard about ] becoming the textile capital of Europe during the Russian rule? --] 09:42, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	::::Accuse me of ignorance once more and I'm going to aks for comments or some more serious user problem resolution process to be started. Sorry, but it's over the top. I'm fed up with your accusations, with your namescalling, with your offensive tone and language. Try to focus on the problem with this article, not your problems with Poles in general and we'll be all much more happy here.
	::::As to industrial revolution and Łódź - indeed, some cities grew, even Łódź became the ''textile capital'' despite Russian attempts to destroy it economically (taxation and customs border between Privislyanskiy Kray anyone?). However, this does not explain the situation I mentioned above. In fact in the very same period million or so people emmigrated from Poland to Germany, Belgium and the US not because of industrial development in Imperial Russia, but because of lack of such development and because of general poverty of the population. This was especially true for the Russian and Austrian partitions. How so the situation of Belarus, where there were no industrial centres comparable to Łódź, was different? If the region with the least developed railroad net and the least developed industry was so blooming, then perhaps you meant a comparison with Middle Ages? Surely not with other countries of the time... ]] 11:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	I seriously doubt if there were any industrial town in Belarus in 19th or the beginning century. As far as I know, Minsk was all wooden architecture and inhabitated mainly by Jewish population. What was that blooming or booming in the economy then ? The sources that I have at hand say that in a couple of years after 1863 the Russian government run out of the land confiscated from Poles. Russian Committee of Ministers found in 1875 that the "property of Russian owners was in disastrous conditions for the owners were unable to take care of their property themselves". It does not seem like "blooming economy" picture to me. --] <sup>(])</sup> 19:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re:13===

	As the work on the article continues, I noticed that Ghirlandajo yet another part, claiming it was a ''slur'', though without any explanation. It is to be noted that that part was perfectly sourced... ]] 15:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	:I did not see any explanation either. Ghirlandajo, why did you remove it instead of discussing if something bothered you there ? --] <sup>(])</sup> 18:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	:: You know very well that your edits were provocing, as the article states very clearly there was no "Belarusian gentry" at all. Can you name a single Belarusian noble family? They were either Poles or Russians. And what is "Russia used every opportunity to enlarge the Russian possession of land in Belarus"? It is just like saying "Poland used every opportunity to enlarge the Russian possession of land in Mazovia". This is complete nonsense, because Belarus was part of Russia at the time. --] 18:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	:::There were, according to the article by Anatol Zhytko, which I referred to. With all due respect, we are not here to do original research, but rely on scholarly works. Anatol Zhytko is a historian from Minsk with over 20 publications on the topic of development of Belarusian society. It may be that his works are biased by Lukashenko regime, but then, should we discard all the contemporary work by Belarusian authors ? --] <sup>(])</sup> 19:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	::::You'd better ask your bud Molobo about that. He frantically deletes all links to Belarusian websites. --] 20:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	::Belarusian gentry? Hundreds of families, from Kościuszko's to Mickiewicz's and from Domeyko to Doweyko. They were as Belarusian in some instances as they were Polish or Lithuanian. If we are to seek Belarusians by modern standards then of course there were none back then. Just like there were no Poles nor Ukrainians. ]] 19:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	:::OK, I will later list Kościuszko as a Belarusian general to Mickiewicz as a Belarusian poet. What a pity these two and their contemporaries didn't know about their own ethnicity and identified themselves as Poles. Honestly, Halibutt, do you see any difference between Belarusians and Poles? Where the difference lies? --] 20:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	:::To answer your second question, "the land in Russian possession" means here that it was owned by Russians and not Belarussians. According to the same article, the tsarist administration attempted to buy or otherwise acquire the ground from non-Russian owners. They formed a special "Society of Land Buyers" for this purpose with the capital of 5 million roubles for the sole purpose of transferring land ownership into Russian hands. --] <sup>(])</sup> 19:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	:Now that both of your questions were addressed, would you answer Halibutt's (and mine) concern: Why have you removed the passage without discussing it first ? --] <sup>(])</sup> 19:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	===Re:14===

	I see after the last edit we have it that ''"Piłsudski invaded Russia and Belarus"'' - where exactly were "Russia and Belarus" ? where were their borders ? Or governments ? Or armies ? As far as I know it, after several months German Army withdrew from the area to Lithuania and both the Red Army and the Polish Army started to move towards each other. The first conflict started when Bolshevik Army attacked (and after a couple of days captured) Vilnius. But it were not Poles but Russians who were the attackers then. So once again: When and where exactly did this alleged invasion of Belarus and Russia start ? --] <sup>(])</sup> 19:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	==Pan-Slavism as justification for Russification of other nations by Russian Empire==
	''It's pleasant to see you in the same league with Molobo once again, joining Molobish hysterical fears of "19th-century pan-Slavist propaganda". It's a pity, however, that the great pan-Slavists - Safarik, Kostomarov - cannot respond to these slurs.''
	:They don't have to:
	http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/panslavism/panslavism.pdf
	During the Congress which had started at the end of May, Vladimir
	Ivanovich Lamansky pointed out that the invitation of the non-Russian Slays
	— which he called a great historic event —fitted nicely into the framework
	of the ethnographic exhibition, there by proving that Russia did not intend to
	deprive the various Slavic peoples of their different ethnographic characters,
	but magnanimously recognized the historical rights of the weaker Slavic
	brethren, thereby acquiring a strong position of moral leadership. In the same
	speech he demanded that Russian be the official language of all Slavs, and
	this proposal was greeted with thunderous applause by his Russian audience.
	'''The non-Russian guests gradually came to the conclusion that by PanSlavism their Russian hosts meant “Pan-Russianism,”''' which would include'''
	'''the general acceptance of the Russian language and the Orthodox faith by all
	other Slavs'''; in other words, a Russification of the Austro-Hungarian and
	Balkan Slavs, similar to that of the Poles and Ukrainians within the Russian
	borders.

	PAN- SLAVISM
	by
	Sándor Kostya
	--] 22:21, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
	:What other common language would you propose? ]? And what is wrong with common language? Shandor K is very smart with putting accents and tearing out a quotation out of context. Of course, there were different panSlavists. Some of them sought spreading the domination of Russia. Some were truly bothered by annihilation of lesser Slavs. Are you aware that ] was extinct and was artificially restored just like ]? And Belarusian language was destroyed not by Russkies My grandfather used to tell me funny stories how he was forced to learn by heart "lovil Janek do poludnia majonc pruzhnon hrapken" (He wrote it thus in forbidden Cyrillic letters to memorize). ] ] 22:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

	::My grandad was told by a local Polish ksiądz that only those who speak Polish would go to paradise, while those who speak Ukrainian are pledged to hell. What is remarkable, many peasants were so ignorant as to believe him. That's the Polish idea of Christianity and tolerance in a nutshell. --] 09:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::You should seperate your personel experience from historic facts and use historic scholary reference in writing articles in order to avoid bias, after all my grandad told me how Russian soldiers didn't knew what was toothpaste and thought it was candy, but I never would enter such information in Red Army article. Personal experience can be deceiving and shouldn't be used when editing articles. As to your allegations let me remind you the words
	'' These gentlemen have started everywhere to say and write Slav instead of Russian, so that later they will again be able to say Russian instead of Slav.''
	Karel Havliček Borovský. 1846
	--] 14:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	"Some were truly bothered by annihilation of lesser Slavs."
	Didn't Russia occupy some of the countries of these "lesser Slavs" ? And what does lesser mean ? Is one nation belonging to the Slavic language group greater then the other in some unexplained way ? Didn't Russian Empire try to annihilated unique Polish, Belarussian, Ukrainian cultures itself by Russification ?
	http://www.taraskuzio.net/academic/history.pdf
	When nation building was encouraged, as it was in Austrian-ruled western Ukraine
	between the late eighteenth century and 1918, it led to the development of a central
	European, in contrast to pan eastern Slavic identity.71 Paul Magosci points out that
	‘While Ukrainianism was being suppressed in the Russian Empire, all the fundamentals
	that make possible a viable national life—history, ideology, language, literature, cultural
	organisation, education, religion and politics—were being formally established in Austrian
	Galicia’.72
	"Are you aware that ] was extinct "
	I am aware of this, however it was Czechs achievement that it was restored .Are you aware that Czech national leaders distanced themselfs soon from Pan-Slavism which they said was in fact Pan-Russianism ? Are you aware that Russian Empires policy was to make many other Slavic languages extinct using the very argument of Pan-Slavism ? In fact it didn't shy from cooperation with non-Slavic groups in persecuting those "slavic" nations that it couldnt' russify(for example with Bismarck against Poland).
	--] 22:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


	==Using dictatorship propaganda.==
	Please don't use information made by the current dictatorship of Belarus as reliable source.
	Thank you.
	--] 15:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
	:Please indicate which part of the official site you find unreliable. There is an English version, by the way. I see a disturbing pattern in your edits: references to Russian and Belarusian sites are consistently disqualified, while the links to Polish sites are encouraged. This is called POV, my dear friend. --] 16:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

	For the reasons why Russian and Belarussian official sites are discouraged as source of reliable information see:
	http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2004/countryratings/belarus.htm
	http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2004/countryratings/russia.htm

	In short Belarus is considered a dictatorship while Russia is an autoritarian regime.Using official government pages of both countries makes the information subject to doubts about its reliability.It may very well be just propaganda made for the use of current regime.
	--] 16:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:51, 30 November 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the History of Belarus article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

This

level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Belarus High‑importance

	Belarus portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Belarus, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Belarus on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BelarusWikipedia:WikiProject BelarusTemplate:WikiProject BelarusBelarus
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

Russia: History High‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.

History Mid‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

European history Mid‑importance

	Europe portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Few more questions

First:

into the multi-ethnic Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia, with its capital initially in Horodno, later in Navahradak (now in western Belarus) and finally in Vilnia.

When did Grand Duchy of Lithuania became only Ruthenia and Samogitia? Did not missed - Lithuania?

Horodno as a capital Grand Duchy of Lithuania? When? If you writing capitals of Grand Duchy of Lithuania write all of them – Trakai Kernavė Voruta ; not only which you like!

Second:

Initially mostly Ruthenian and Orthodox, with time most of them became polonized. This was especially true for major magnate families (Sapieha and Radziwiłł clans being the most notable)

Do you really think that Radziwiłł family represents Orthodox? Family started from Trakai (Lithuania) and later developed into 3 branches – Biržai–Dubingiai (Protestant branch), Olyka and Nieswiez (catholic branch); and a branch which died out very soon - Goniadz–Medele (catholic branch)

M.K.

Pov removed

I've removed two highly pov sections from the paragraph "Republic of Belarus. Communist economy in a political democracy." Most of the section read like a paranoid crusade to dismiss certain views on Belarus, and like a massive defense of Lukashenko. The phrases I've removed are:

"...radical right wingers use to call Belarus "the last dictatorship in Europe", a propaganda cliche used against left wing governments by private owned enterprises lobbying for its appropiation of public owned state controlled resources." (the reference for this claim is a news forum btw, which doesn't meet our external link guidelines.
"...representative of frustrated capitalist interests in privatization of public enterprises. Under Lukashenko Belarus has seen economical prosperity with continuity of state control of the economy ("communism"). Eighty percent of the economy of Belarus remains under state control, just as it was in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Belarus. This is irritating to right-wingers, such as many in "the West" who fear that the example of Belarus demonstrates viability of communism in comparison to Russia´s experience with privatization and subsequent corruption and stealing of public resources."

A ecis 18:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Expanding this?

Hi folks. This article looks in dire need of re-writing and expanding, to me. What are the current hotspots here? Yury Tarasievich 11:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Belarusian Soviet Republic and West Belarus

The same number of lines described language limitations in Poland and mass extermination in Soviet Belarus. POV.Xx236 08:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

including practically all its intellectual elite

So the intelectual elite murdered in 1937 died for the second time? Xx236 08:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Polish population often collaborated with German occupation administration.

The same "Belarus population often collaborated with German occupation administration". Xx236 08:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

In total, Belarus lost a quarter of its pre-war population in the Second World War

False, Belarus had more population after the war than before it.Xx236 08:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC). If 'after the war' means 40 years after -- this makes sense... the whole article on belarus seems to be written by non-natives, and has lots of false statements...

Ethnos

The word 'ethnos' is pretentious use of Greek, needless, and is not good English. Is the phrase 'ethnic group' not politically correct enough already? And what is wrong with 'the Belarussian people'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.185.167.243 (talk) 13:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

1812

Szlachta (gentry) joined Napoleon's army - not mentioned here . (be-tarsk) Беларуская шляхта ў часе вайны 1812 году падтрымала Напалеона,Xx236 (talk) 14:29, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

References, please. It is a known fact that Polish nobility hoped for liberation from Russia by Napoleon. There is no such thing as "Belarusian szlachta". Nobility is national concept, not ethnic. Nationalistic be-tarsk is poor source for historical facts, since it is skewed into exaggeration of Belarusian glory. - üser:Altenmann >t 16:11, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Nobility is national concept, not ethnic. - any sources? What about Konstanty Kalinowski? Members of gentry joined nationalistic anti-Polish movements, see Romer family, Andrey Sheptytsky. Four brothers were Lithuanian, Polish and Belarus (two Iwanowski-s, Tadas Ivanauskas, Ivanoŭski). The main division in Belarus was religious (Roman Catholic against Orthodox) rather than national.Xx236 (talk) 08:13, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

The usage of Belarusian language

Which Belarusian language 1920-1939? There existed at least two dialects, not mentioning West Polesian microlanguage. In another words - the Polish government didn't support unification of Belarusian language, was it oblidged to do it? Does Lithuanian government support unification of Polish language in Lithuania today, in the EU?Xx236 (talk) 08:21, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Piasecki ?

The page is about History of Belarus. The Piasecki paragraph should be rewritten or removed.Xx236 (talk) 10:21, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

the Nazis attempted to establish

But they established in 1943.Xx236 (talk) 10:40, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

POV

This article presents Belarus POV. History of minorities (Poles, Jews) should be described.Xx236 (talk) 08:12, 17 February 2016 (UTC) The article lacks references since 2012.Xx236 (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on History of Belarus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Corrected formatting/usage for http://expo2000.bsu.by/main.idc?id=500&id2=500
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120704083750/http://www.radabnr.org/indexen.html to http://www.radabnr.org/indexen.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:52, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

"independent feudal consolidation"

I have no idea what this means. Or is supposed to mean. Srnec (talk) 00:37, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Categories: