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== Request for clarification: ] (3) ==
{{Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment/Header}}

<noinclude>{{-}}</noinclude>
''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
]
*{{userlinks|Mythdon}} (initiator)
]
*{{userlinks|Ryulong}}
*{{admin|JPG-GR}}

<!-- Substitute "admin" for "userlinks" if a user is an administrator. Anyone else affected must be notified that the request has been filed,
immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. The line for username2 can be removed if no-one else is affected. -->

=== Statement by Mythdon ===
I am asking for clarification regarding my ] and other restrictions, if they apply to what I am asking.

I am currently in a dispute with Ryulong and JPG-GR (listed above) about whether I should put another Power Rangers article for deletion for verification reasons. Both have stated that they want me topic-banned should I put another article up for deletion based on my decision. I have stated that I will put another page up for deletion if I don't find reliable sources. If you want the link to the discussion, it is (note that since it is a permanent link, the discussion may change).

I am asking the Arbitration Committee to clarify whether my conduct probation or other restrictions hold any jurisdiction over my placing of WikiProject Tokusatsu articles up for deletion. Before I again put a page up for deletion, this needs clarification. I wish for a fast response, though I won't force one. Thank you. —<font color="green">]</font> (<font color="teal">]</font> • <font color="teal">]</font>) 00:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

==== Further comment ====
Just to make the committee aware, I've taken the discussion to ANI: ]. And here is the non-permanent link to the discussion: ]. —<font color="green">]</font> (<font color="teal">]</font> • <font color="teal">]</font>) 01:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

==== Reply to Xeno ====
If we took any distance from eachother, that would only get in the way of us working on Power Rangers and tokusatsu articles. We both work on the same articles, and it would not be a good thing if we had to distance ourselves. It would only make things worse, not better, if distance were to happen. Such a distance is a turn for the worse and not a turn for the better, period. Please look at our contributions for evidence that we edit the same articles. —<font color="green">]</font> (<font color="teal">]</font> • <font color="teal">]</font>) 00:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

==== Reply to Ryulong ====
Let me clarify. is in absolutely no way of an attempt to find a venue to wikilawyer at all. All I did was ask some random questions regarding a proposal of which I do not wish to get myself involved with. Hopefully that settles it. —<font color="green">]</font> (<font color="teal">]</font> • <font color="teal">]</font>) 04:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

==== Reply to FayssalF ====
So, in other words, am I forbidden from putting these pages up for deletion? —<font color="green">]</font> (<font color="teal">]</font> • <font color="teal">]</font>) 16:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
:You are clearly instructed to produce a guideline within the scope of the Tokusatsu WikiProject instead of filing articles to AfD. For the sake of clarity, I am producing here the remedy again:

{{quotation|'''Participants at the WikiProject Tokusatsu'''
:7) All participants are advised to work on producing a genuine guideline for the articles falling under the scope of the WikiProject Tokusatsu. They are urged to work in collaboration with Mythdon while seeking outside advice and help.
:Passed 13 to 0 at 20:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC) -- }}

:In other words, failing to work under the direction of the above remedy while persisting in putting pages up for deletion would be understood as disruption and a complete disregard of the remedy —which would warrant you a block. -- ] - <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

::So, from what you're saying, until me and WikiProject Tokusatsu produce a guideline, I am indeed forbidden from making further AfDs falling under it, correct? —<font color="green">]</font> (<font color="teal">]</font> • <font color="teal">]</font>) 23:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Ryulong ===
Placing a topic ban on an editor is up to the community and has absolutely nothing to do with any editing restrictions placed on Mythdon by the arbitration committee. This is just wikilawyering by Mythdon to avoid the inevitable discussion concerning his editing practices by other users in ].—] (]) 00:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Statements like show that he is not willing to abide by the arbitration restrictions/suggestions/whichever. He has shown no headway in communicating with ] or sister projects or the village pump in working constructively with other users. He has flatly stated that he will send pages to AFD without discussing things with other users, and his comments at ] show that he was never willing to work with the WikiProject, flatly ignoring mine and JPG-GR's requests that he not act in the way he plans.—] (]) 00:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, shows he is not here to work collaboratively.—] (]) 02:58, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

And is an example of Mythdon's attempt at finding a new venue for his wikilawyering.—] (]) 03:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I know that I wasn't exactly helpful at the later points in the "Search soon to begin" discussion. And how else will further issues be solved without when people only get one part of the issue.—] (]) 05:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC) <small>originally posted . Moved here by <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 05:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)</small>

=== Statement by Protonk ===

The ongoing ] is instructive for arbs as to the problem at hand. The general dispute should be resolved by the community but the specific clarification remains a live issue. Does the past case prevent myth's current behavior (as described in the linked thread)? ] (]) 18:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Hersfold ===

The committee issued two findings of fact (] and "''Mythdon stance toward the articles''" immediately after) and a remedy (]) in this case that seem to deal directly with this. In them, it is noted that his interpretation of the verifiability guidelines in this respect is overly strict and at times disruptive. In the discussion Mythdon has linked, he has unilaterally stated that he will be nominating a wide swath of articles for deletion if he can't find sources (which all other three users involved in that discussion have stated he cannot be trusted to do). Mythdon has (as is usual with him) flatly refused to accept any of the suggestions or pointers offered to him in that discussion, and stated that "''Requesting deletion at AfD is gaining consensus''", which appears to be a direct contradiction to the remedy I mentioned earlier.

Furthermore, I'd note that this is the third request for clarification brought forth to ArbCom by Mythdon, all of which have been characterized by wikilawyering by Mythdon. This is becoming very tedious that every week we have to go through all of this again because Mythdon has felt he's found another loophole through which he can continue his disruptive editing. ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 23:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Xeno ===

I recently attended to an unblock request by Ryulong. It was for a stale AN3 report (ended 07:15 in agreement, reported 19:27), which Mythdon reported at ANI 19:41 , later attempting to have the blocking administrator increase the length See also an earlier conversation between Mythdon and the filing party earlier that day as well as , . The parent thread to Mythdon's had already run its course on the matter and ended at 08:24 .

I haven't reviewed the case in full, but it seems to me that these two editors could each benefit from added distance between them.

(FYI, I conferred with the blocking admin via email and unblocked Ryulong and his dispute partner.) –<font face="verdana" color="black">]</font>] 00:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Note by Ncmvocalist ===
I've proposed a restriction on Mythdon at the ANI discussion; if it's imposed, it can be imposed either under the conduct probation from the decision, or as a community sanction. This is more of a courtesy notice. ] (]) 09:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by other user ===
<!-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->

=== Clerk notes ===
*Recused... again... although commenting above. ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 23:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*Recused. ] (]) 00:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
* Mythdon, you ] —among others— to "work on producing a genuine guideline for the articles falling under the scope of the WikiProject Tokusatsu. Project's participants urged to work in collaboration with while seeking outside advice and help." Instead of working on it you've been getting back to your tendentious ways and the behavior which brought you to ArbCom in the first place. Failing to abide by the cited remedy I'd be considering further requests for clarification or mass AfDs as a highly disruptive tactic from your part. This is the last warning ever from my part. I hope this clarifies and answers your request up here. -- ] - <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
*Also recused. ] (]) 20:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
*There is little to add to FayssalF's comment, save perhaps that he is being gentle. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 21:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
*Per Coren and FayssalF. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 00:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
*Mythdon, I am going to be as plain as possible. As part of the remedies pertaining to you - "This includes, but is not limited to, edit warring and failing to appropriately pursue dispute resolution and to show better communication skills." Right now you are skating on thin ice. Writing large amounts of material at AN/I and pointedly nominating material will result in conflictual situations very quickly. The ability to edit ''collaboratively'' is a prerequisite to editing at wikipedia. If you are unable to do that, and you are seen to play a part in furthering conflicts, admins ''do'' have the ability to block you as per the remedy. Spending time at AfD is often highly confrontational. If you wish to risk getting into conflict there so be it, but if an uninvolved admin views your role as disruptive there or anywhere else, you have been warned. ] (] '''·''' ]) 00:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
*Mythdon, because a mentor was not found or wanted, the conduct probation allows for discretionary sanctions to be devised by uninvolved administrators. As a result, any disruptive conduct by you may result in sanctions '''''of any sort'''''. There is no need for clarification from us at this time; come back when an administrator does impose a restriction, and we may review its appropriateness.<br/>You are urged to work collaboratively, and avoid generating hostility. Nominating many articles for deletion would not be unhelpful. Saying "" is not appropriate in light of Arbcom decision.<br/>Ryulong, you should be avoiding participation in any discussions calling for sanctions against Mythdon. Your extensive involvement in the second half of ] discussion is not helpful, as you are escalating the issue rather than trying to look for solutions other than having Mythdon banned. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 05:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
----

== Request for clarification: ] ==

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
* People who wish to edit or discuss Scientology-related articles through a closed proxy listed in ] for reasons discussed in said WikiProject's project page.
*Operators of these closed proxies:
**{{userlinks|Celarnor}} (notified in )
**{{admin|OverlordQ}} (notified in )

=== Statement by Damian Yerrick ===
Remedy 8 ("Editors instructed") requires users "(B) To edit only through a conventional ISP and not through any form of proxy configuration".
However, some Internet service providers run all users' Internet connections through a proxy. This includes or included AOL and the only ISP in Qatar (see ]).
Other Internet service providers, such as all ISPs in the People's Republic of China (see ]), use other forms of connection filtering, and users of those ISPs cannot view or edit Misplaced Pages except through proxies.
On behalf of people affected by an ISP's proxy, I request an explanation of why these people should remain topic-banned.

=== Statement by other user ===
==== Statement by OverlordQ ====
The method currently described by the pages on ] has not worked since CentralAuth was enabled, as such mine has never been online, nor had any users. ] <sup>] ]</sup> 16:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Clerk notes ===

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*Note that the preamble to the remedy 8 rulings limits them to "edits to any Scientology-related articles or discussions on any page is directed:"<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 12:12, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
*I was inactive on this case, and I may not quite grasp the technical material being discussed here, so I will defer to those of my colleagues that were active on the case, and to those who can answer the technical questions better than I could. ] (]) 14:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
*I believe the purpose of this remedy is to reduce the prevalence of socking and mischief on these articles by ensuring that each editor on the pages edits from only a single account and does not use commonly used methods such as proxying to disguise editing through multiple accounts, editing despite a topic ban, etc. If there is a real issue with the remedy winding up having the effect of preventing non-problematic editors from editing these articles despite having engaged in no misconduct, then a modification of the remedy may be in order. Before doing so, I think we would want to know that the issue is real rather than theoretical, so a more detailed explanation of the affected editor(s)' situation may be helpful to us (this can be submitted via e-mail rather than on-wiki if there are privacy issues involved). ] (]) 00:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
*I'm going to state outright that I would not interpret that a proxy imposed by a normal, commercial or national ISP is "editing through a proxy configuration" by any reasonable interpretation: that remedy was directed at those who would seek to "anonymize" their editing by circumventing normal IP routing. This does, however, include usage of TOR or anonymizing proxies. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 01:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
*I agree with Coren. Use of tor or anonymising proxies or other open proxies is not acceptable. Known commercial or national ISPs are not included. ] (]) 20:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
*Newyorkbrad frames it well. I also agree with Coren. -- ] - <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
----

== Request for clarification: Bluemarine ==

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{admin|Sandstein}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|Bluemarine}} ()
*{{userlinks|Durova}}, mentor of Bluemarine ()

=== Statement by Sandstein ===
In ], on 1 February 2008, the Committee decided upon the following remedy: "Bluemarine is banned from editing Misplaced Pages for a period of one year to run concurrently with the existing indefinite community ban."

On 10 December 2008, the Committee passed the following amendment to that case ():
:"''Limited unblock with conditions'':This committee's decision in this case and the preexisting community ban of {{User|Bluemarine}} are modified solely to the extent that Bluemarine is unblocked for the limited purpose of his making contributions related to increasing the accessibility of Misplaced Pages to users with handicapping conditions. This includes uploading encyclopedic audio files, formatting audio file templates, and captioning those audio files, as well as editing his userpage and talkpage, all under the mentorship of {{User|Durova}}. Except as expressly provided in this motion, the ban on editing by Bluemarine remains in effect. If Bluemarine violates the terms of his limited unblock, or makes any comment reasonably regarded as harassing or a personal attack, he may be reblocked for an appropriate period of time by any uninvolved administrator. If Bluemarine complies with these conditions for a period of 60 days, a request for further modification of his ban may be submitted.
:''Passed 7 to 0, 09:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC).''"
Yesterday, I blocked Bluemarine for a week following a report at ] that he had violated these restrictions. The block has since been contested at the ANI thread by Durova and one reviewing admin, {{user|Jpgordon}}, who unlike me believe the restriction(s) on Bluemarine are no longer in effect. As of this writing, there is also an open unblock request at ].

I ask the Committee to clarify:
#whether the community ban of Bluemarine as referred to in the remedy and amendment remains in effect,
#whether the conditional lifting of this ban and the restrictions on Bluemarine's editing as specified in the amendment also remain in effect.
Thanks, <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 05:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Allstarecho ===
I'd just like to clarify that ], aka User:Bluemarine, was under a community ban before his Arbcom ban. His 1-year Arbcom ban did expire in February of this year, which would have been before the 60-day stipulation to end. 60-days would have put him under Arbcom ban until March when the initial 1-year ban expired in February. So technically, there is nothing Arbcom can, or needs to, rule on here as Arbcom's jurisdiction ended in February by the original Arbcom ban or in March by the Arbcom 60-day stipulation - depending on how you interpret the Arbcom ban. What is left to do is for the community to decide whether or not to lift his community ban, which again, he was placed under before his Arbcom ban.

This is all brought about because he made 6 edits yesterday while still under community ban, after having been informed he was still under the community ban back in May when he made edits. In May he was told by Durova not to edit anywhere but his talk page until the matter was resolved. Unfortunately, it went stale and was never resolved then but as he wasn't informed that it was resolved, he should have asked on his talk page what the status was.

As I have agreed with Durova in recent past discussions with her, I support the lifting of his community ban with the stipulations that he is banned from editing his related BLP article or article talk page as well as the same for the ] article. In addition, as also agreed with Durova in recent past discussions with her, based on Sanchez's history of vile personal attacks towards other editors, should he lodge any personal attacks, he shall be immediately and indefinitely blocked again. '''- A'''LLST'''✰'''R<span class="Unicode" style="color:#FF72E3;">▼</span>'''<sup>]</sup>''' <sub>'''] '''</sub> 07:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Jpgordon ===
Just a slight correction -- at this point I have no idea what the status of ArbCom's restricted unblocking is. It's not clear from the language whether the committee intended it to outlive the committee's original sanctions. A reasonable person could interpret it either way. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Durova ===
Recommend remanding this to the community. Bluemarine's arbitration ban has expired. The community could clarify his status and/or impose new restrictions on its own. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 15:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:With respect extended toward Newyorkbrad's comment, the basic structure of a new editing restriction is something the community should be able to handle quite well. In about May I made such a proposal (basically a topic ban from his old areas of conflict). There was a socking concern that got raised, which turned out to be a nonissue, but investigation delayed discussion so the proposal didn't achieve consensus (mainly because the noticeboard was fast-moving). Shortly afterward Bluemarine went away on business and has had limited Internet access since then. That's the only reason a second proposal hasn't already gone to the community. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 01:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statment by Lar ===
This user is not worth the trouble, in my view. Their past history is filled with disputes with all and sundry. The word "collegial" is not, in my view, in their vocabulary. Recommend putting or keeping a complete ban in place. Else we'll be here again soon enough. ++]: ]/] 09:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Sam Blacketer ===
I was drafting arbitrator on the original case. I also voted to support the amending motion in December, and remember thinking when doing so that it would be good to progressively lift Bluemarine's editing ban in the period leading up to the end of the year ban when he would be free to edit. Obviously any community sanction is administered separately. ] (]) 21:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by other user ===
<!-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->

=== Clerk notes ===

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*My view is that we should cut to the chase, and decide what editing restrictions, if any are needed for the editor. Once that is enacted, then the past sanctions do not matter. ]] 15:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
* As it stands there are no more active arbitration remedies, but the community ban remains in effect (the original decision deliberately did not override that). Bluemarine can now either appeal the ban to the community, or appeal it to us. --]&nbsp;(]) 02:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
*Per Bainer, with preference the community handle this. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 12:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
*On an initial look, I agree with bainer's comment. I do want to look at this more closely though, so may return to this at some point. ] (]) 14:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
*I agree that the best path forward is to figure out what restrictions, if any, are needed going forward, rather than to focus on which past ones technically are still in effect or not. I'm not sure, however, that I agree with the preference expressed above that the community debate the restrictions, since there are sensitive BLP and other issues involved that might best not be addressed on-wiki. ] (]) 00:59, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
----

== Request for clarification: ADHD ==

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks|Scuro}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|Literaturegeek}} diff of notice

=== Statement by Scuro ===
There are several examples of Literturegeek being uncivil during the topic ban proposal. I complained at the time on the project page but nothing came of it. This behaviour continued throughout the whole Arbitration process, particularly in the workshop area. An example was given by me in my evidence section.(In presenting her evidence Literaturegeek is being abusive and uncivil. She states, ''"This archive is half a megabyte of mostly paranoid obsessive ramblings about conspiracies of scientologists and antipsychiatrists, useless drama, fighting.." or "Manipulative often playing the victim role. This can even deceive administrators and make admins turn on their fellow admins"....) ''.

Further evidence of uncivilness was given under Stephen Bain's proposed findings of fact .
(Literaturegeek and continued uncivilness - this needs to be addressed - She has been abusive during the topic ban proposal, and arbitration and this continued after Stephen Bain pointed out these issues with his proposal. For example she stated;''"as scuro's essentially has been making editors experiences on wikipedia a living death until they give up and leave and still a year later he is getting away with it. What amazes me is the ability of scuro to almost get people hypnotised and manipulate them (like on this admin discussion board for example and else where over the years) that he is an innocent persecuted victim and his opponents who he forces off wikipedia and removes all their contributions are terrible people. But then again I do understand because human beings are the perfect hypnotic subjects but that is another debate for another day. He wants these big discussions to wear people out. I see now Nja is being seen by some as persecuting poor scuro and poor scuro needs a break, I have been seen as the bad party, this is what I meant by scuro being professional in how he disrupts wikipedia and the levels he goes to and why I am willing to invest so much time in this admin noticeboard as enough is enough, years of forcing editors off, deleting anything they add which scuro doesn't like. Scuro knows when to be aggressive and knows when to calm down, it is all manipulative behaviour and he invests an enormous amount of time into doing this but yet admins can't see it as they don't follow it. The only time I have been involved in official wiki discussions was a discussion was when I was being harassed by sock puppets of mwalla, a vandal. I do not enjoy these debates''. She also appears to have an abrasive style and conflicts on other pages". This behaviour and "drama" also continues to date on other pages. )

Currently she continues to be uncivil and personalize the talk pages.
#Why was her uncivilness not mentioned in the final decision, when her uncivilness eclipsed both documented examples of Doc James and my uncivilness, and this was happening right in the middle of arbitration?
# What can be done about this continued problem?

=== Statement by Literaturegeek ===
I shall not be replying in depth to this, perhaps it would have been better not to use the descriptive adjectives, paranoid, obsessive and rambling etc. It is an arbcom so we submit evidence against a person and their behaviour so it is difficult to criticise a person without "putting them down".
Diffs, like childish bullshit and other related links as explained earlier, was due to me being stalked for over a year by an editor who was from an unnamed drug company who did not like my edits on benzos. Anyone followed around having contribs constantly monitored and admins doing nothing is going to lose their temper and ask them to stop "stalking me" on a couple of occasions. This is an old issue years old now. These other disputes scuro has found on my talk page are resolved. The NPOV noticeboard regarding antidepressants was not to do with me as I had not contributed to any great degree to the article, that editor just noticed my username on the talk page and gave me a notice and . If you read this section, ], scuro character assasinated Doc James saying he is advocates xyz and also was rude, barking orders at Doc James. I see no change, the article is being treated as a combat mission and this arbcom filing is more of the same type of thing I feel. I feel the editing environment remains a battle ground hostile environment. Even though I have been trying to make compromises on adhd talk pages, still things like this attacking me pop up. I would like to move on from the ADHD articles but feel this is unlikely with the continuing drama, this on this page here by scuro above being one example of hostility.--]&nbsp;|&nbsp;] 22:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Clerk notes ===

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*Issues concerning behavior on the arbitration pages themselves are water under the bridge. Issues concerning conduct since the case was closed should be resolved by enhanced civility on the part of all concerned; for example, as Literaturegeek acknowledges, some of her adjectives would have been better left unused. It might be best for one or more previously uninvolved administrators to keep an eye on these pages going forward, making sure that the parties to the case comply withour decision, and perhaps bring to our attention if problems involving any of the sanctioned or warned parties continue; but I see no need for further Arbitration Committee action at this time. ] (]) 22:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
*Like Brad, I don't think any action is needed here. I would urge scuro and literaturegeek and other parties to the case to work together, rather than trying to test or explore the boundaries of the case decision. I note that one arbitration enforcement request has already been filed. If that is needed, sure, but please try and focus on the article content and its sources, and not each other's behaviour. This was made clear in the case, and should be made clear each time further requests are filed. If large numbers of frivolous requests are filed, indicating that editors are looking at each other's behaviour, rather than working on article content, new restrictions may need to be imposed. ] (]) 14:06, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
----

== Request for clarification: ] ==

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks|Ohconfucius}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|Pmanderson}}

=== Statement by Ohconfucius ===
In view of the following remedy in the recent ArbCom Date Delinking Case:

"31.1) Pmanderson is topic banned for 12 month from style and editing guidelines, and any related discussions."

I seek clarification as to whether "Editing guidelines" includes the ], which is a policy page.

The user has edited the policy page 6 times since the case closed ( )
In the , he remove a link to the ] and replaced it by a link to an article, with a possibly deceptive edit summary.

This undiscussed change may well have been contentious (it has since been ) and appears to involve just the scope that Remedy 31.1 refers to

I would ask for the status of the edits to this guideline be clarified in relation to the remedy. The editor of this request. ] (]) 03:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

:'''Response to MBisanz''': Maybe I misunderstood the function of this page, but if clerks believe it should be moved to AE, then so be it. The reason I brought it here was because I am only seeking clarification as to what was covered &ndash; I am under similar editing restraint and would gladly like to know whether same freedom applies to me. Anyway, I was not specifically after enforcement at this point, not clear as if there had been a breach.

:'''Response to Mandy''': I guess that the animosity and ] from Manderson is to be expected, bearing in mind our historical antagonism. BTW, I am not one to judge whether the one "" was intended to ]. ] (]) 02:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess this thread can be closed - I have now moved this request to ], per the advice from Matthew. ] (]) 01:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Pmanderson ===
What does this have to do with date-delinking? Why am I being dragged back into it?

Ohconfucious appears to have missed in which I inserted a space between two paragraphs.

As for the edit summary complained of, it says, in full: ''refer to article, with sources; there are advantages to working on an encyclopedia.'' There are; these include access to articles on English grammar when we want to indicate what that grammar actually is; they have citations and sources; MOS doesn't.

As Roger Davies wrote, now on the talk page of ], ''topic bans are intended to give severely disrupted topics a break from disruption and to give topic-banned editors an opportunity to get used to working in less contested areas.'' The naming conventions are in fact much less contentious; it was with relief that I returned to discussing them, as I have been doing for years. ''Applying'' them is less so, as the recently concluded Macedonia case will show; I have been discussing that also, and its consequences, with several admins and some arbitrators. Nobody suggested that this topic ban applied in any way.

It may indeed be possible to apply this decision mechanically, so that it will amount to a site ban; did ArbCom mean that? (And if so, did they mean it, somehow, just for me, or does it apply to all parties alike?) ] <small>]</small> 17:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
:'''Response''' to MiBisanz: If the arbitrators intend their wording to have anything like this scope, it would be nice if they would say so. But if this is simply moved to AE, would you make sure my response goes along? ] <small>]</small> 18:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
::Understandable. Sigh. It's another thing to actively watch. ] <small>]</small> 01:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
*Response to '''Ohconfucius''': Why no; I added to divide a paragraph into two, as the edit summary (''divide paras'') says. This made that section uniform with all other sections.
*The insinuation (Cicero had a term for this figure of speech) that I have been gaming the system is incivility; so is the distortion of my username. I have two; either would be acceptable. ] <small>]</small> 15:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by MBisanz ===
Without looking at anything beyond the first couple of lines, this looks like something for ] as it does not seem to rise to the level of an intractable dispute between enforcing admins over what a remedy means. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 17:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
:;To Pmanderson
:I'm recused on this case, so I won't be doing anything clerk-ish or admin-ish with regard to it. Best to ask another clerk. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 21:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Clerk notes ===
*'''Recused''' ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 17:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*'''Comment''' No. Naming guidelines, while a policy, are not within "style and editing guidelines" vis a vis the scope of the date delinking arb case. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 01:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
* '''Comment''': I don't naming guidelines as within the scope of the restriction. &nbsp;] <sup>]</sup> 01:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' AE is a better venue for this request. An admin and other uninvolved editors can decide if the edits are problematic considering the letter and spirit of the editing restriction. In any given situation, it is possible for edits to be considered disruptive or good. For this particular case, I see no reason to automatically increase the range of the topic ban to the point that every edit is reviewed for a potential misstep. But if the edits are tendentious, disruptive, or controversial in other ways then it would make sense for an admin to enforce the editing restrictions in the broadest way. In my opinion, this is best decided at AE. ]] 14:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
* '''Comment'''; I'll concur with my colleagues here and agree that naming guidelines are not a matter of style, but of contents. Therefore, discussion there does not fall under the restriction's scope. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 13:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
*Noting here (on the off-chance that any motions are proposed) that I recused on the original case. ] (]) 13:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
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== Request for clarification: ] and ] ==

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks|The Wurdalak}}
*{{userlinks|Manhattan Samurai}}
*{{userlinks|Urbanus et instructus}}

<!-- Substitute "admin" for "userlinks" if a user is an administrator. Anyone else affected must be notified that the request has been filed,
immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. The line for username2 can be removed if no-one else is affected. -->

=== Statement by Jayron32 ===
<!-- Describe the nature of your request, and any explanation or evidence why it is needed.
You can delete this comment when you have added your statement -->

*The issue here is whether or not The Wurdalak and Manhattan Samurai are the same person or not. There appears to be strong behavioral evidence to link the two, see ], where a May 2nd comment by Nishkid64 indicated that the case was being handled by the Audit Subcommittee. A further note by RogerDavies at ] indicates that ArbCom is involved in this case. The third account listed above was one that I thought was a clear Manhattan Samurai sock, but was instead linked to The Wurdalak. I am thoroughly confused by this, and need clarification on the AUSC's/ArbCom's position on the nature of these two accounts. Are they believed to be the same person or not? If they are not, what do I need to look for to know the difference between them. If they are, can we get the Sock categories and SPI reports merged? Thanks for the clarification on this! --].].] 16:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

**Thanks to Thatcher and Nishkid below for clarifying this. It appears that there are, according to the CUs, two unrelated scokpuppeteers here which have similar MOs? Am I reading that right? If so, thanks for clearing that up. --].].] 06:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

***Well then, now that Thatcher has clarified that Wurdalak and MS are different people, I think I need clarification from ArbCom over reblocking Wurdalak. If he just recently used the Urbanus account, then he is in violation of his ArbCom-placed 6-month block. To any ArbCom/AUSC member patrolling this request: Should we now extend that six-month block back to indefinite for repeat socking while under that 6-month block? --].].] 02:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

*Respond to Rlevse: This is here because there were notes made to both block logs and talk pages that the block was part of an existing or pending AUSC/ArbCom ruling and I came to ask for clarification on that. Also, this HAS gone through SPI, but the SPI case noted the ArbCom involvement so I brought it here to ask for help in sorting out how ArbCom was involved and how to proceed, and for clarification on the intricacies of these two confused cases. --]''''']''''' 05:41, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

**Alright, I have reset the block on The Wurdalak for another 6 months. In the future, if I should run across more of his socks, I will know what to do. This clarification is now {{resolved}} and can probably safely be archived now. Thanks to Rlevse for helping clarify the appropriate course of action (and buzzing my talk page to remind me to check in). Toodles. --]''''']''''' 02:20, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Thatcher ===
This doesn't really have anything to do with Audit, other than that Roger Davies of the Ban Appeal committee asked for an independent recheck. Last I knew, Wurdalak's block appeal was in the hands of the Ban Appeal subcommittee and I don't know what the disposition was. {{user|The Wurdalak}} and {{user|The Wurdulak}} (unblocked doppelganger) are not related to Manhattan Samurai on a technical level and ''appear'' to be geographically separated, although checkuser can never rule out the possibility of various forms of collusion and coordination from different locations. The technical findings with respect to Urbanus et instructus are consistent with The Wurdalak, but of course the importance of that turns on the outcome of the appeal. Check with the members of the ban appeal subcomittee on this one. ] 20:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
*Yes, there are likely two distinct individuals involved here. The original question was whether Wurdalak should have been blocked as a sockpuppet of Manhattan Samauri. Since they are geographically distinct, the block question would then turn on an analysis of edits, and whether this is a case of two distinct people coordinating their editing after one of them was blocked for using multiple sockpuppets. However, it appears from Wurdalak's block log that this has already been sorted out by Arbcom's ban appeal subcommittee, . ] 15:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by Nishkid64 ===
I based my findings on Thatcher's well-reasoned conclusion that The Wurdalak was not related to Manhattan Samurai. Since The Wurdalak is currently blocked, and will only be unblocked pending the result of his case before the Audit Subcommittee, I decided to block his sockpuppet indefinitely. <span style="background:white;color:#007FFF;font-family:Georgia;">] </span><sub>(])</sub> 00:48, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Statement by other user ===
<!-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->

=== Clerk notes ===

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*'''Question and comment''' What arb case is this a part of? If it's not part of an arb case, why is it at clarification instead of SPI? <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 01:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
**OK I see now. Yes, this should be here. As the new user is ANOTHER Wurdalak sock, I'd reset the 6-month ban to start anew or indef Wurkalak, I'll leave that to the community admins. And yes, Wurdalak and Manhattan Samurai are differnt, but there is a strong chance they are meats.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 14:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': On investigation, it turned out that The Wurdalak and Manhattan Samourai were two different people. However, during the investigation The Wurdalak had also socked on his own account (with various permutations of The Wurdalak, plus Duh Elk At War and Duh Wart Lake) so he was banned for six months. If he has socked since, the ban clock needs to be reset (or indeffed, if appropriate). &nbsp;] <sup>]</sup> 01:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
*Agree with Roger's summary here. To Rlevse, it is not clear where sockpuppet bans should be appealed - should the SPI case be re-opened if someone appeals? Who decides that? At the moment, ArbCom do get a fair amount of these sockpuppetry appeals, so we should work with the checkusers to make sure those appeals with merit do not get rejected. This case had some merit, but that was cancelled out by the socking Roger mentions above. ] (]) 13:51, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

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