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* Further title discussion: 10 March 2015, ]; 26 July 2015, ]
* RM, Gaza War (2008–2009) → 2008–2009 Gaza War, '''no consensus''', 22 March 2021, ]
* RM, Gaza War (2008–2009) → 2008–2009 Gaza conflict or 2008–2009 Gaza incursion, '''not moved''', 21 May 2021, ]
* RM, Gaza War (2008–2009) → 2008–2009 Gaza War, '''not moved''', 14 October 2023, ]
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== Beginning of Gaza War == == Hamas claims of casualties==
Hamas never said that 600-700 of its members died. The Haaretz article in fact quotes Hamas as saying 200-300 Al-Qassam brigades members died, but also quotes Hamas saying 49 of its members died. It also quotes "250 killed" at the police station, but these are not strictly from Hamas, nor is it clear if they are combatants at all. It also quotes an additional 150 security personnel, and again its not clear if they were combatants in the Gaza war or not.''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 02:39, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

{{see|2008 Israel-Hamas ceasefire}} (the dissolution section)

Since the cease fire ended in November 2008 but wasn't official till December 18, shouldn't the Gaza War battle box say the war began on November 4 when the Israelis launched their attack on the border tunnel. Resulting in 6 dead Hamas terrorists. It was then the terrorists began launching rockets at Israel again, leading to the December 27 air and artillery campaign and then the January 3 groung assault. I will now change the date to beginning on November 4 2008 instead of December 27 2008.

== Allegations...etc ==

I appreciate, greatly, Sceptic's prompt and reasonable response on the issues that have been raised. I think that if it doesn't show how capable and understanding he appears to be, in the very least it shows that he is willing to conform to Wiki policies, and that's the least we could enterprise on these issues...

That said, I want to make sure that I am understood, and by that I mean that I would like to see every statement attributived properly. And for that purpose I ask him to understand that we can't undermine Wiki's vehicle to present views, by presenting reported statements as facts. Wiki does not contribute in that matter. And so, the following "The report did not represent a cross-section of the army, but rather they were troops who had approached the group or were reached through acquaintances of NGO members. An Israeli military spokesperson dismissed the testimonies as anonymous hearsay." cannot be posted without proper attribution, even if it's acceptable through the RS medium. Wiki is not judging what the report says(since we assume is from a RS) rather Wiki asks we give credit where credit is due. In other words, we would like to recognize that the JP read the report and it found such findings. It is all we are asking in this matter. The JP found that the report did not represent etc. That is a judgment statement, and must be sourced to the identity that so view the matter in that way(or in this case). ] (]) 05:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

:I agree, attribution in a case like this is vital but I guess it's just an oversight. Phrases like 'The report did not represent a cross-section of the army,' are meaningless anyway because the term cross-section is undefined and JP are not qualified to talk about sampling methods. I also suspect that NGO Monitor (which as usual is where the nonsense starts before it's picked up by JP, NYT etc) wouldn't know what a good sampling methodology was if it came up and hit them over the head with a big book about research methods. Just thought I'd mention that as I haven't had a soapy rant for a while. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 06:44, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
::Throughout our discussions I tried on numerous occasions to show nonsense in Amnesty and others, however only Monitor receives all the credit. Do I have to double the soapboxing here? And since when, Sean, do you take words out of context? Of course the first half of the sentence is meaningless, but why did you dismiss the second half? Katz says clearly that . This is definitely not a crossection, whatever scientific definition you can think of.
::Now to the original question from Cryptonio. The logic that guides you here is clear. However, I want you to take a look at this: . When asked to attribute the words to Al-Jazeera correspondent, I was overruled by Nableezy - he says that AJ presented it as fact and no attribution to RS is required. So, I think we either adapt a policy of attribution to RS in controversial issues, or we drop it in accordance with wiki policies. As you see, we won't be able to resolve this one without Nableezy yet again. --] (]) 11:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
:::Sceptic, Nableezy cannot overrule you or anybody else. I said what I thought based on my readings of ] ] and ]. If there is a disagreement we ask other people. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>

:::Sceptic, in this article, attribute everything, including the pro/psy war statement. I apologize if I was in a position to agree with you on that other matter and didn't, but I don't remember when that conversation took place. ] (]) 14:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
::::You was not a part to that conversation, Cryptonio, no claim to you. Are you sure we want to attribute everything? I don't think I'd mine that, but this will require broad consent. Nableezy, Sean, are you ready for this? --] (]) 14:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

<- Sceptic, "And since when, Sean, do you take words out of context?"...since I was about 3 years old. It's served me well ever since. As for "they were troops who had approached the group" etc. Yes, it's the same sampling technique the police use to identify victims of crime. They wait for them to contact them. It's quite effective and it's cheaper than phoning people up at random and asking them whether their car has been stolen today. Thanks for the Jpost article by the way. Will read later. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 07:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:Tell me Sean, does the police in Thailand act in similar way? I mean, after several dozens of victims called the police, the police rushes to mass media and publishes the allegations all around the globe, implicating that the whole country is a bunch of criminals? --Sceptic <small>from</small> Ashdod 09:29, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
::Pretty much, yes. They parade people they arrest in front of the TV cameras, often broadcast a 'confession' and their pictures get splashed all over the tabloids usually next to the bloodied corpses of their victims (no mention of the word alledged) and photo's of bikini clad 'pretties' advertising cosmetic products or perhaps a new baby panda etc. I think you're being a bit harsh on Breaking the Wind or whatever they call themselves. Seems like shooting the messenger. An org that encourages woman to report abuse by men isn't implicating all men. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 10:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:::That is not the case of Breaking the Table. They are not the messenger, but the judge and the jury: that the immoral way the war was carried out was due to the systems in place and not the individual soldier," said Mikhael Mankin from "Breaking the Silence." What was proven yesterday is that through the IDF the exception becomes the norm, and this requires a deep and reflective discussion. This is an urgent call to Israel's society and leadership to take a sober look at the foolishness of our policies." Now tell me again, if the police gets a call that says "They say a man across the streat hits his wife", does police or court take this seriously? Because this is the case with this Breaking the Rules' report (just the first random page): during Operation Cast Lead last January despite a 2005 High Court ruling outlawing the practice, a Golani brigade soldier says. He says he did not see Palestinians being used as human shields but was told by his commanders that this occurred...The soldier said he had heard of other instances in which Palestinian civilians were used as human shields. One time, for example, a Palestinian was put at the front of an IDF force with a gun pointed at him from behind. But the soldier said he had not seen this himself". Or take a look at this (one of 2 testimonies about 'human shields'): ] (]) 05:31, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

::::Sceptic, I'm not sure what you expect me to say. What I can tell you is that as soon as I read phrases like 'the immoral way' in NGO reports/press releases I stop listening. If your complaint is that Misplaced Pages articles are too susceptible to the constant back and forth in the media between partisan sources with conflicting agendas then I agree but that's a 2 way street. As I've said before, I'm not a fan of any of this material being in the article but if it is going to be here then we have no choice but to follow the normal policies etc. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 04:17, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::I was under impression that you do listen to humam rights NGOs (and reject propagandist-like NGOs), but if that's not the case - no more questions, you're excused. Let's go on with the normal policies. --] <sup>(])</sup> 05:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::I don't know how the above exchange went ahead and made you take your word back Sceptic. I thought we had agreed on sourcing this statement. I do apologize for not making the extra effort to understand the previous exchange, but I think the problem brought is still an issue and that we sort of reached an agreement and then without further discussion things change. ] (]) 04:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::We didn't, Cryptonio. This is what I said: "I think we either adapt a policy of attribution to RS in controversial issues, or we drop it in accordance with wiki policies." - meaning that one rule should apply to this article as a whole. I find it unacceptable that we make an attribution to JPost in this particular case - either we do it to numerous sentences throughout the article simultaneously or we do not do it at all. I also draw your attention to the fact that general wiki policies would not require attribution in this case, as recent recommendation by Nableezy in the talk page of Gilad Shalit article suggests. To sum it up, you'll have to arrange broad consensus on the issue throughout the active editors of the article to adapt this move; if such consensus is reached, I won't obstruct it. --] <sup>(])</sup> 12:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

::::::::Yes, very well, but you only brought one other example related to attribution, and I was not opposed to it. You must then, bring up, like I did, the case where attribution is required and we'll then discuss. You say you want to attribute everything, but what is it that you want to attribute? and furthermore, I will be exceedingly surprised if there is another grotesque example of under representation like in this case. I don't know what Nableezy is doing in another page, but in this page, both him and Sean has voiced their support for attribution. For this fact, I will attributed it once again, and ask you to one, read this paragraph once again, and two, bring up any other case that you feel is not attributed properly. ] (]) 01:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

→You write "very well" and do the opposite. First, the only sentence from Nableezy in this thread referred to different discussion, he said nothing about this matter. Second, I don't have to read this once again, I already know this section by heart. Third, if anything is grotesque in here, it is the report by Breaking the Silence, as I tried to show to Sean above. You are trying to interfere in the domestic internal Israeli matter - JPost is qualified enough to report on it, no attribution is required according to wiki policies. Fourth, the following sentences could be attributed but they are not: "The Israeli attack was the deadliest one-day death toll in 60 years of conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians..."; "In war zones, leaflets warned local residents that they had to flee. It also warned residents that their homes would be targeted if they were located in an area of possible target...". Btw, the following sentence doesn't require attribution to the Guardian: "...despite the hundreds of phone calls to families warning their house is about to be blown up, only 37 were destroyed, presumably as of the 3 January The Guardian article date". Fifth, I insist that the changes of the attribution policy would be done only after reaching '''general consensus''', and not only after you agree to this. Then I promise not to obstruct this. To sum it up, ask Nableezy if you don't rely on me. --] <sup>(])</sup> 16:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

== "Deadliest attack in 60-year conflict" ==


Ok, the reason I removed this was:

A) I don't think ] is a wikipedia-certified reliable source.
B) However, the language in the article reads like a blog. The "Massacre In Gaza Black Saturday" is not the subject of the article and is simply a personal heading in the letter/press release. I haven't seen it anywhere else beyond the Arab world.

Also, is it true this was the deadliest day in the conflict? So since 1948, this attack tops em' all? If so, we should explicitly say this is the deadliest one-day death toll in 60 years of the Israel-''Palestinian'' conflict. I know the subject matter is clearly Palestinian but many seem to merge it with the Arab-Israeli conflict (though I think Palestinian casualties are included in that conflict, right?) I don't know, I haven't been that active on the article so I figured it was better to post here before warring Sean. :D ] (]) 10:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

: Why do you think AlArabiya is unreliable? ] (]) 11:03, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

:: Because it's owned by a despotic oil state and I can't find it in the wikipedia-reliable sources discussion. ] (]) 11:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

:::Wikifan shouldn't you try to achieve some sort of consensus here on talk before blanket-deleting information from an article that is under Wiki sanctions? ] (]) 12:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

::::: Is removing information sourced by unreliable references considered "blanking?" If you think I violated a rule please report me, if not I'd like a response to my question cause I am genuinely interested. ] (]) 13:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::al-arabiyya is a reliable source, it is a major news organization. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:04, 24 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::::::Agreed about al-arabiya, that covers 1st half of the sentence. And maybe, Wikifan, it was the deadliest day, because al-arabiya explicitly says "60 years of conflict with the Palestinians" (of course, it started way earlier, but let's leave it). Anyway, 2nd half of the sentence is based on , that seems no close to RS. 2nd half must go. --] (]) 14:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Ill get some other sources on that, there were a lot saying the name for the first day was "Massacre of Black Saturday", know of a few in Arabic will look for English. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>

:::Wikifan, I can understand your problem with despotism but I live in an oil state (Canada) and I don't see what's wrong with that. --] (]) 00:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::Nothing despotic about an oil state but the despotic state I was referring to also happened to be an oil state. Canada's gettin close though...:D ] (]) 00:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::Wikifan, how does Al Arabiya being partly-owned by Saudis discount it as a reliable source? I believe Barack Obama's first-ever interview as US president was granted to Al Arabiya, by the way. ] (]) 02:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Typically, state-controlled media is not reliable, especially media subsidized by a ruthless Islamic theocracy. Is the reference in the wikipedia RS-page? I couldn't find it. Also, Interviewing politicians does not somehow make a source notable - bloggers have interviewed Presidents.
You should know this. ] (]) 03:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

:Wikifan according to your edit summary deleting the content: ''"this simply isnt true, sources arent even close to being reliable and '''i cannot find an independent source to confirm'''",'' you couldn't find a source other than Al Arabiya. I wonder, did you even try? Because I found one on the first page of a garden-variety Google search. Also, on your challenge to Al Arabiya, can you please direct us to the list of "wikipedia-certified" reliable sources you refer to above? Thanks! ] (]) 04:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, the second source is a joke. Good job understating its unreliability. There were two issues: A)Is this really the deadliest attack in the 60 year conflict with Palestinians (even though it's been going on since Arab revolts)? And B) Is "black Saturday" really that popular of a term? I know these countries like romanticizing massacres while conducting campaigns of ] against their own people, so I figured it was worth confirming. I could not find any legitimate references that endorsed this "black Saturday" assessment, and I could not find any references confirming this was in fact the deadliest attack in the conflict. If the term "Black Saturday" is only being emitted from the Arab world or specific Arab/islamic countries, then we should be more explicit and say that. We don't want to get undue weight to what clearly is a loaded term.

Also, Here is the database: ], feel free to file Al Arabiya request. ] (]) 04:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

:Wikifan that is not a database it is a noticeboard, for discussion. And you have things, as some say, bass-ackwards. ''You'' deleted content and declared Al Arabiya "not even close to being reliable . . . owned by a despotic oil state . . . subsidized by a ruthless Islamic theocracy". I and others simply stepped in to stop what we saw as disruptive, advocacy editing. Now, if you truly believe this major news organization is not a reliable source, then it is up to ''you'' to start a challenge. Thanks. ] (]) 05:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

:: Are you done? Now, can someone other than Roma please answer my questions? ] (]) 05:38, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:::WF, you are the only disputing the reliability of Al-Arabiyya. Like it or not they are a major news organization and meets the requirements of ]. And RomaC is right, absence of a discussion at ] means absolutely nothing. If you want to challenge Al-Arabiyya bring it up there, but the consensus here is clear. Al-Arabiyya is a reliable source. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 08:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
Also, massacre of black saturday now sourced. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 08:34, 25 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>

That wasn't my only dispute and the reliability of AA has little to do with what I'm saying. I still don't think AA is reliable source anyways, and two users with demonstrative POVs is '''not''' a "consensus."

Plus, the second source is total bollocks. I'm not confident this was the deadliest day in the history of the Palestinian/Israel conflict, and I have been unable to independently verify the claim. <strike>The Black Saturday statement, sourced by a non-RS, also has not been addressed</strike>. ] (]) 08:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:Gentlemen, please, don't we have other more important things to do? Wikifan, the sentence been edited and better sourced. WP is not about truth, you know, I suggest you leave the AA. --Sceptic <small>from</small> Ashdod 09:38, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
::If Misplaced Pages doesn't care whether it's information is true or not, what's the point? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:WF, my counting was that you were by yourself, where RomaC, myself, and Sceptic (wait, he has an assumed demonstrable POV, but it is the opposite of my assumed POV, do they cancel each other out or add like absolute values? Im so confused) all say it is fine. Again, if you want to take that to ], then by all means feel free to do so. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>

== Hamas response to rocket attacks. ==

There was a response previously before the section got reworked. Don't know why it wasn't added.

I found this and added it.

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar stated during the operation "they shelled everyone in Gaza. ... They shelled children and hospitals and mosques, ... and in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way."<ref>http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/05/israel.gaza/index.html</ref> ] (]) 00:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

:I think it is an appropriate addition. Two points: first, you added it to 'acts of terrorism' subsection, while it seems more relevant to 'attacks directed at civilians subsection'. Second, there's already a sentence in 'attacks directed at civilians subsection' in Hamas response to AI report - Hamas official rejected the report as "unbalanced, unfair and unprofessional," calling the firing of rockets "self defense" and a legitimate response to Israel's actions. - Maybe these two sentences can be merged as one. --] (]) 05:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

::There should be a response, or the idea of one, in every charge(subsection) like Israel has, and very detailed ones. That somehow the wording is similar, well the subjects are similar...rockets. ] (]) 16:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
:::In case you didn't notice - the subject, i.e. the specific charge, is different, <s>but nevermind</s>. The word 'rockets' in the heading is inappropriate. --] (]) 19:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
::::Changed my mind. While the notion of 'a response, or the idea of one, in every charge(subsection) like Israel has' is perfectly fine, the response should address the charge. Words "they shelled everyone in Gaza. ... They shelled children and hospitals and mosques, ... and in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way" say nothing about 'legitimacy' to spread terror. --] (]) 04:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

:::It did addressed rockets though, we could include the whole part(within the news article) related to rockets then . It addresses the subject of firing rockets, and of course Hamas is not going to say they are doing it in order to sow terror, that is Israel's line of thought(Hamas' line is that it has the right to imitate Israel(paraphrasing). ] (]) 23:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
::::'we could include the whole part(within the news article) related to rockets then' - say it again please? --] (]) 04:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

From the source:" On Monday Hamas militants fired dozens of rockets into southern Israel despite a 10-day Israeli military campaign that reportedly has left more than 500 Palestinians dead.

Abu Obeida, a spokesman for Hamas' military wing, warned Israel that Izzedine al Qassam Brigades will continue rocket strikes "for many months" and vowed to strike deeper into Israeli territory. He spoke on Hamas' Al-Aqsa TV.

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar also gave a televised address Monday, saying the leadership in Gaza salutes "the resistance men" and that their actions were justified because of what Israel has done.

"They shelled everyone in Gaza. ... They shelled children and hospitals and mosques," he said. "And in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way." ] (]) 14:47, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
:I read the source, and as said, no objection to use words of Hamas official. I don't agree to quote them in 'attacks spreading terror section' because the words address the charge of indiscriminate attacks and not terror. You said 'we could include the whole part(within the news article) related to rockets then' - I didn't understand what you mean or what do you suggest. Please say it again. --] (]) 04:28, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

::On the section of spreading terror, how is it that they spread terror? Rocket attacks. "It addresses the subject of firing rockets, and of course Hamas is not going to say they are doing it in order to sow terror, that is Israel's line of thought(Hamas' line is that it has the right to imitate Israel(paraphrasing)". There is nothing else mentioned on the spreading terror section besides rockets. And finally, if they say this ""They shelled everyone in Gaza. ... They shelled children and hospitals and mosques," he said. "And in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way." they expressed that they are doing what Israel is doing, and if Israel says that's spreading terror, then obviously Hamas thinks Israel is spreading terror as well. It's all they saying with the quote. ] (]) 12:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
:::I disagree. 'shelled children and hospitals and mosques' - seems like indiscriminate attack. Actually, all our dispute here is speculative, and I didn't express stronger objection because it falls somewhere in the grey zone. I still tend to think it is not so qualified in the terror attacks section. You see, many (including human-rights NGOs) said for a long time that the prime aim of rockets on Israel is not to kill but to spread terror and this in itself is a violation. Israel never said that (and it is impossible to determine it decisively) the aim of attacks in Gaza was to terrify Gazans. Well, I don't know. I told you my opinion. Maybe I'll ask third party to take a look. --] (]) 14:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

::::You said 'no stronger objection" and "grey area" and I agree with you. I won't be mad if someone else besides you removes(or moves) the quote. ] (]) 18:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

→I'll try to get attention of Cptnono (leading military) and Nableezy (leading wiki-policy) experts to decide. --] (]) 20:14, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
:I'm not a military expert in any way (I just think the aspect is important) Thanks, though : ) . I look at this article as a military conflict more than a series of international law violations. My initial thought is to put it in the "Rocket attacks into Israel" section. From the way I am reading the source, dude is vowing to fight on and feel's justified. He also thinks their method is similar to Israel's. It is easy to assume that he knows it is controversial and that is why he made the statement but in all reality, ''"warned Israel that Izzedine al Qassam Brigades will continue rocket strikes 'for many months' and vowed to strike deeper into Israeli territory"'' ''"the leadership in Gaza salutes 'the resistance men' and that their actions were justified because of what Israel has done." and ''"They shelled everyone in Gaza. ... They shelled children and hospitals and mosques," he said.'' "And in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way."'' are all good quotes describing a tactic used. To make it easier on us, the source doesn't mention international law so we don't need to put it in such a section at all.] (]) 21:29, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

::I don't think he refers to "legitimacy" under moral grounds. It is the accusation that must refer to or at least allude(per today's standards) to Inter Law violations. ] (]) 23:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
:::"I don't think he refers to "legitimacy" under moral grounds." - then under what grounds? Definitely not grounds of laws of war. The accusation is (a direct quote of int-law): "Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited". It turns out Cptnono and I think alike - the quotes are good, but the placement is not. Let's see if Nableezy will show up. --] (]) 20:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

→So far, Cptnono and I think alike, and Nableezy didn't show up. How do we move towards resolution? Cryptonio, you want to bring in anybody else? --] (]) 14:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

::No, i can wait for Nableezy to say something. ] (]) 21:18, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
:::Either he didn't understand my request to show up here or he ignores it. Maybe you should ask him. Meanwhile, check this out: , suggesting that Hamas rocket terror against Israeli civilians might be legitimate. The representative asked if Palestinians have a “right to resistence,” while referencing “home-made rockets.” U.N. investigator Mr. John Dugard, who had previously accused Israel of war crimes and crimes against humanity, did acknowledge that even non-state actors have to abide by international humanitarian law and avoid targetting civilians (though he seemed to suggest that it would be legitimate to target Israeli soliders in any context). --Sceptic <small>from</small> Ashdod 07:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

::::Moved the whole section to the bottom to draw attention, I want to finish it already. --] (]) 04:53, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::too high right now, will come back later. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 06:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::I think this can go in the intl law section Attacks directed against civilians and civilian objects. Though I see Crytponio's point on the section, the Attacks aimed to spread terror and Attacks from populated areas deal only with rocket attacks. Me thinks perhaps we should be having a section Rocket Attacks instead of the 3 sections that currently only talk about the rockets attacks. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::::::Seems like majority supports the idea of moving the quote from 'terror attacks' to 'attacks against civilians'. About the suggestion to merge allegations into one section - I strongly oppose. The charges are different, and I'm trying to address each charge separately. For those who are following, I'm doing the same for the section on Israel - I separated distinction from proportionality. --] <sup>(])</sup> 09:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::::As a general point on classifications that result in subsections, isn't it better to base these of what something is rather than what someone thinks something is whenever possible ? For example, a rocket attack is a rocket attack. Everyone can agree on that. It can also be described as act of terror or an act of self defence etc but those classifications will vary according to the sources you choose. Just a thought. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 10:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Please notice that we are dealing with Int-Law section. We present here allegations of war crimes. Rocket attack in itself is not an allegation of war crime. But there are sources that charge those attacks with 2 different war crimes. If you have sources that say that such rocket attacks are legitimate 'self-defence' or 'right to resistance' (especially if those sources would be neutral) - do please, we'll include them as counter-arguments. Here is another nail to the "terror-spreading" allegation: . --] <sup>(])</sup> 05:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::I am fine with the way it is split up, I just think it would be better organized if we set it up as "rocket attacks are illegal because they violate 1 2 3" instead of saying "violations of 1, rocket attacks; violations of 2, rocket attacks; violations of 3, rocket attacks". Just my thinking, but there isn't anything ''wrong'' with splitting it up like this either. Just think it would be a more logical section layout. Nothing would change in the content. But whatever. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 05:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::::::::::Yes, I tend to look at it that way too (including the 'but whatever'). Structures based on what happened/real things are preferable to structures based on opinions e.g. 'songs by X' vs 'songs by X' with a 'crappy songs by X' subsection. What I think is much more important though is that the int-law section should be split off to a sub-article. It has massively undue weight in this article especially given that these are opinions about events in the Gaza War rather than facts that provide information about what happened in the Gaza War. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 05:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::The response was not moved but deleted. I too, say whatever, but if we can't actually do what we say we thought we agreed on by not saying anything, specially whatever, then I too will say, whatever, but at the same time will like to see this section rewritten down to one section because of it's content(rockets). ] (]) 04:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Cryptonio, I do not generally delete a well-sourced info, especially when me myself said before that it is good to go for the article. Look better, it was moved, not deleted, as per Cptnono suggestion, and I wouldn't oppose to include it anywhere else. To the notion of rewriting it down to one section I '''STRONGLY''' object. I follow the same pattern for both Israeli side and Palestinian side - the charges are the pattern, not the nature of the attack. No consensus here. --] <sup>(])</sup> 05:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC) <br>check out ]. --] <sup>(])</sup> 09:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC) <br> Btw, the recent HRW report provide the same statement you found, see the newest section. --] <sup>(])</sup> 12:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

::::::::Well, pardon, as I looked per "Seems like majority supports the idea of moving the quote from 'terror attacks' to 'attacks against civilians'." and not "Rockets attacks into Israel" which is not in the Inter Law section. Leave the quote in the current place, if anything I'll find another one later for the Inter Law section. ] (]) 00:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Try HRW report, it is a good place to start. --] <sup>(])</sup> 10:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

== Factual and legal aspects ==

http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/GazaOp.pdf ] (]) 21:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:Assuming the report is sanctioned by the state of Israel, this should be absorbed heavily into the article. It appears to be very meticulous, even including thermal imaging and pictures that pin-point Hamas hide-outs blocks away from UN buildings and neighborhoods. Are those pictures free? ] (]) 01:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
::, this can be used as a primary source reflecting the opinions of the Israeli government. Not for statements of fact. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 01:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::and yes the pictures are free as a publication of the Israeli government and thus in the public domain per the . But whether or not they should be used is another question. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 01:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::The report cites 3rd party media to corroborate findings. They didn't just "make it up" unlike some organizations. I think some of the pictures illustrating the hide-outs of Hamas and bunkers near hospitals could prove useful in the pertinent paragraphs. Unless those pictures are merely the opinion of the Israel gov...:D ] (]) 02:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
::::If they cite 3rd party media we should cite that media, but the conclusions they draw are their own. If the picture is of a random building but the caption is "Hamas hideout" then yes that is the "opinion" of the Israeli government. The rest of the comment not paying attention to. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 02:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::So you are implying Israel simply whipped out phony satellite images and highlighted random buildings, with "here is teh terroizers11?" XD ] (]) 04:50, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I didnt imply anything. Primary sources may be used for the opinion of who produced the source. That is what this is. When the state of Israel says this happened, we dont say it happened, we say Israel says it happened. And stop with the jokey emoticons if you want me to take you seriously. This isnt a joke. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 05:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
Sceptic, I think this source could be used in place of CSIS and the other think tanks if you were amenable to that. Other than that from what I have read it is mostly a repeat of the reports you compiled for the international law section. Though you surely have a more attentive eye than me, havent see much new (though there are some explicit denials of attacks on 2 mosques, saying they were never attacked). Should be interesting once the UN report is released in August. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 02:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:It's 200+ page report covering virtually all allegations and points of attack, have you really read through it? I think it is highly valuable considering the article revolves around Israel and its government. ] (]) 04:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
::It came out this morning (Chicago, yesterday morning I guess). I read a lot. There is some new stuff in it like I said, and I wasn't exhaustive in my list, but my suggestion here was to use this in place of the think-tanks which have been questioned as to their reliability for facts, which has been addressed by explicitly citing them, but more importantly as to the notability of their views. If we have an official response from Israel why not just use that in its place. I was saying to use this report a lot, something you seem to be in favor of. But much of it is a duplication of material already in the article and I think it would be better to cite these as the official opinion of the Israeli government rather than use a think tank with ties to the Israeli government. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 05:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::I agree. It will certainly add more credibility or at least understanding that x is the official POV of Israel rather than some pimp-tank spinning their wheels. ] (]) 05:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
→Just woke up and I wonder - when for the heaven's sake did you have the time to read it and to discuss it? I won't be near here throughout the weekend. However, one extremely important thing. There's absolutely - do you read me? - absolutely no way CSIS report is substituted with this one. CSIS is the 3rd party, it is a notable think-tank, their report was noted in the media, Cordesman in the past was critical of Israel and he's even critical of some aspects of Israeli proceedings in the Cast Lead. It is as good as reports from HRW and Amnesty (and even better - not because it is pro-Israeli, but because it is so far the only comprehensive independant report from a military-strategic perspective, unlike human-rights NGOs who has arguable military competence and miscomprehension of IHL). In the meantime, for the sake of fairness, can anyone please take care of anonymous POV edits, inconsistent with WP policies? Ah, about Goldstone team - Nableezy, did you not read my contributions to that section? I don't know what do you expect, but when one future team member says during the war that Israeli actions are war crimes and later accepts membership in the team, and then refuses to recuse herself (and her boss defends her), and when the whole team is assembled to investigate Israeli war crimes only and their mandate was never formally changed - I hope for the best and expect the worst. --] <sup>(])</sup> 06:50, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
:I can't overemphasize it. A Government is a Government. All think-tanks cited are NGOs. They may be pro-Israeli but they are independant. I think it only shows the level of openness of Israeli society. There are groups like Gisha, B'Tselem and Breaking the Promise and there are groups like JCPA, Monitor, ITIC. And there is the Government that provide official state response. No contradiction, no duplicity. Unless of course you agree to remove all PCHR stuff - we have official Hamas numbers of casualties, what else do we need? Was quite surprised to see you, Wikifan, supporting this point. Secondary sources: , , . Nice weekend everyone. Behave yourself, Gentlemen. --] <sup>(])</sup> 08:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
::Well, if we list those thinktanks users will undoubtedly attach "teh pro izrael lobby111!!!" to the front or back, or everywhere. Maybe even in the section title: "Opinions of pro-Israel lobby "thinktanks." See . I am partial to your suggestions though. ] (]) 23:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

== Island of Consensus - PNA flag ==

] is is a refinement of the ] technology. Sometimes you need a bigger ] to see more details.]]

I'm not really sure when using PNA flag for belligerent became "Consensus". I made a survey among non-English language WP articles describing this war. English language article is an exception: PNA flag is not normally used, Hamas flag gets a wide international support. Any thought? ] (]) 09:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

*Endorse. Does Hamas consider itself a part of the Palestinian Authority? From what I understand ] is a semi-autonomous piece of land that does not answer to anyone, including the PA. ] (]) 09:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

*We could change all the other wikis to use the PNA flag. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 12:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
** - we could start here, the flag looks suspiciously green. ] (]) 15:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:::That infobox was created based on Israeli media sources and it's never been discussed. Also the fact that there are several thousand Thai nationals in and around Gaza and Eshkol who get attacked by both sides (luckily only one killed so far I think) means that Thai editors are potentially biased......could be either way, hard to tell. :) <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 16:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
::::A-ha. But why year 2552? Is it sensible? ] (]) 16:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Year zero is the death of Mr ]. It's AD+543. It's all explained ] along with the Thai colour coding system for days of the week. No, it's not sensible but it seems to work okay. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 17:06, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
*Spanish uses the PNA flag but what does that matter? From what I understand English Wiki is a semi-autonomous piece of cyberspace that does not answer to anyone, including the Spanish or Swedish Wiki. Wikifan I know you support this pholosophy because you disregarded the Arabic Wiki's use of "Gaza Massacre" just a few months ago. As for timing, I may be wrong but I think this article has had the PNA flag since about March? ] (]) 14:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
** It's cool for exceptional speakers. Still other ] such as , , , and avoid using PNA flag. Both "belligerent" languages: and use green flag. I guess my question is what kind of reasoning could support PNA flag. Again, I missed the discussion. ] (]) 15:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Arabic doesnt actually define the belligerents, only the commanders. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::Let the Force (القوى) be with you. Still no PNA flag. :) ] (]) 16:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Thats actually strength and shows the strength of Hamas, the PFLP, Islamic Jihad, and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::All those armed groups fought under Hamas flag, according to Arabic language WP. ] (]) 18:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::What are you talking about? It has the symbols for each group shown in the strength of forces. It only lists two commanders both of whom are Hamas so they show the Hamas flag, Haniyeh and ]. Where does it say they all fought under the flag of Hamas? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::::There is no PNA flag. Though Palestinian tricolor is visible at PIJ logo color coding and PRC emblem incorporates the flag in its design. ] (]) 21:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::There is now. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 22:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::It does not matter what the other wikis choose to do. We have been through this too many times. We have had consensus for using this flag. If you want to try and challenge that you need to get consensus here. Not on the thai wiki or the portugese wiki or anywhere else. But we have been through this before (many times) and we have had consensus for this flag set up. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>

===PNA flag - reasoning===
Go ahead, <font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>. What are the reasons for using PNA flag? ] (]) 16:06, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:Read ], ]. But to recap, the flag of Gaza is not the flag of the party in control of the government. The Gaza Strip is a part of the Palestinian territories. Just because Hamas won an election in the whole of those territories does not mean that the flag of Palestine changed to the flag of Hamas. And most importantly, we have had this conversation too many times, with you starting it almost every time, and consensus among the users here that we use the flag of Palestine for Gaza and the Hamas flag for the commanders. It is time for you to accept consensus was against you and not continually bring up the same arguments over and over. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::Thank you for the links. What I remember from those discussions, that the disagreement was so wide, that you decided to strip all flags as a "compromise". Later flags re-appeared, without (AFAIK) any discussion. It's time to fix distortions. How could we make such a decision in WP procedural way? ] (]) 16:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:::We already made a decision, the flags have been stable for 3+ months. One user besides yourself has changed them in that time. There isnt any controversy or dispute here, you are just making the same arguments over and over. Do you want to strip all the flags? Fine, do that. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::Just a note about the name of the flag being used, because I had to check the page after reading what you guys were talking about. Its the ], as in the flag of the ]. The ] is just the name of a temporary body created by the Oslo accords to run the territories for Israel. This was a war between the Israelis and the people of Gaza, who are Palestinian. I realize the PNA also uses the flag, but please don't call it a PNA flag. That's not what it is. It predates it by decades. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Hello Tiamut. I accept your clarification. The flag has deep national roots, adopted officially by PLO since 1964 and used as flag of Palestinian statehood since 1988. I understand your skepticism about the ] which still achieved some ]. ] (]) 21:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::Who is a belligerent in ]? Afghanistan? Hardly. Who is a belligerent in ] and ]? Lebanon? I don't think so. If Hamas were a leading party in the current government in the West Bank too, and the war was waged both in Gaza and West Bank, than it could be possible to say that the war was waged against Palestinian people, who volunteerly chose their leaders. But the matters in NPA are slightly more complicated. Too bad Gaza does not have a flag of its own. Or does it? --] <sup>(])</sup> 10:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Didn't Hamas get relatively more electoral support than Kadima did? Or, does Kadima have a flag? Disagree with selective delinking of government and population. ] (]) 14:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::For the portion in time the Taliban was the governing authority the ] does list the ] as the belligerent. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::::I didn't say "flag of Hamas", Roma. I only think it would have been more appropriate to use flag of Gaza instead. Ashdod has a flag, Illinois has a flag, why not Gaza? After all, West Bank and Palestinians there were not part of the war. They are de facto different political entities at the moment. --] <sup>(])</sup> 15:07, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Sceptic, if Canada attacked Illinois (good luck punks) the belligerents would be Canada and the US, even if all we needed to slap them back to at least Wisconsin is 10 Chicago police officers armed only with night sticks. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::::::Oh so that explains why the Illinois Air National Guard ] those Canadian soldiers. --] (]) 09:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::And I have tried looking for a Gaza Strip flag, but havent found anything in what could be called a reliable source. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::::::And if Illinois' government is overthrown by some separatist anarchist movement that would leave de facto (but not de jure) 2 countries instead of one, both having American people (God knows what it is)? --] <sup>(])</sup> 16:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC) No seriously, if US would attack North Korea, no one would say that US is waging war on Korean people, right? It would be clear to everyone that the belligerent is a regime of North Korea. In our case, a belligerent is a government of Gaza, and if there's no such thing as Gaza flag, a flag that represents best current situation in Gaza should be chosen. Btw, there's nothing 'wrong'(? not the best word) in this situation - Korea is partitioned, Germany was divided, Israelites were segmented in Judea and Israel entities. And don't tell me this is different because Hamas won the elections throughout PA - we have de facto 2 political entities. --] <sup>(])</sup> 17:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::North Korea is a state itself, Gaza is part of the Palestinian territories and claimed as part of the ]. Nobody has said that it is a separate entity from that. So if not the flag of Palestine what flag do you think should be used? Just the Hamas flag? There were other groups who fought with Hamas in this conflict. And an attack on the government of a territory is an attack on the territory, even if we were to accept that this was an attack on Hamas specifically. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::::::::I'm repeating for the third time, before the split Gaza was an integral part of the state, but not now. De facto this is a separate entity with independant government. Sort of ]. As for the flag - I'd suggest a traditional tricolor with two additional colors, the blue (sea) and the gold (the beaches). Mounted Shariah policeman can be added too. I told you - in the absence of the Gaza flag, the best next choice is the flag of the leading party of the government. Other groups' flags can be added to commanders section. --] <sup>(])</sup> 19:59, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Disagree with that. Gaza has not seceded from Palestine, the government of Gaza has not said they are a separate entity. There has been no declaration of independence establishing Gaza as anything other than a part of Palestine. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 20:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::::::::::And fot the good reason! Each government, in Gaza and in Ramallah, claim that it is the only legal one. But the fact remains - 2 separate governments, 2 prime ministers, 2 ministers of health, etc. Maybe they use the same flag, but this is de facto different entity. It should be somehow resolved. --] <sup>(])</sup> 03:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::But as Tiamut pointed out above this is the Palestinian flag, not the flag of the PNA or the West Bank exclusively. This is the flag for the government of the Palestinians, and in Gaza that government is Hamas. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 03:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::::::::::::This I understand. You have to understand reciprocally that a situation when 2 de facto separate political entities use the same flag is ambiguous. How would you deal with 2 Koreas if both had used by chance the same flag? --] <sup>(])</sup> 06:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::If they both used the same flag then I would use the flag for both, next to it I would make sure we say North or South, sort of how we do here with the Palestinian flag and the text next to it saying Gaza. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>

===The problem with infoboxes===
] believes that ] must burn in ] ]]
Now I know I've said this before but infoboxes suck. And this shows us why. A line in the 'box or, worse, a little picture, can't say anything that is even slightly complex. Indeed, it obscures everything that we try to explain in the article.

The belligerents line only speaks to readers who are too lazy to read the first bloody paragraph. I would suggest that we remove it and I hope that other editors would consider the suggestion even if it upsets some MOS. --] (]) 08:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
: I might consider, but only after you reveal what a MOS is. --] <sup>(])</sup> 10:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
::Manual of Style. ] and a whole lot of other specific pages (like ]). <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::unfortunately, most readers are lazy... but i'm a conformist and will go with the flow... i even argue about the flags used for the sake of a good dispute, not because i truly care...--] <sup>(])</sup> 17:53, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
:Well, I would like that summer would not end. Ever. Still we have to handle winter from time to time. ] (]) 15:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Sorry, I don't understand your metaphor. I live in Canada where it is always summer. --] (]) 09:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
::Infoboxes are great. Unfortunately, many readers of wikipedia only look at the lead and this info (sorry, but it is society's dirty little secret when obtaining information) The problem isn't infoboxes, it is the weight that it carries. We need to use caution when adding/removing/wording info found there. It is safe to bet that at least some readers have felt the same way if an established editor has a concern. Be use prudence, let the facts speak for themselves, and leave any opinions out of editing] (]) 07:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
:::The only reason that the weight of the infobox matters at all is because it doesn't say the same things that the article does. It can't. We couldn't simply write the article to fit in one massive colourful box. The box is a god-damned spreadsheet. Look through all the archives of the talk page. We'll bicker and argue about a stray adverb but then condense 20 paragraphs into four words to fit into the box.<br /><br />The box forces us to take descriptions from the article and make judgements about what they mean. In every other context that is against the spirit of NPOV. --] (]) 09:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Stop crying, your tears might freeze. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::::Nah, the vodka content lowers the freezing point. --] (]) 07:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

===The problem with using PNA flag===
]" ({{lang|zh-Hans|]}}/{{lang|zh-Hant|]}})]]
I see the main problem with using the PNA flag ( which is also flag of Palestinian statehood and tightly connected to other Arab national flags ) is that it is factually wrong in context of Gaza war. One of main developments of this war is that Israeli tanks did not roll into streets of ] and ], which are parts of future Palestinian state. Diplomats around the world use this flag to designate PNA if we like it or not. PNA did not take any part in fighting. Is there any reliable source support for "Palestinian nation" as belligerent of this conflict? ] (]) 15:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
:When Hamas has talks with other countries, such as meetings with the Arab League in Cairo, they use the Palestinian flag. This is the flag of Palestine, not the flag of the PNA. This attack was on a portion of what are called the Palestinian territories. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:see . ] meeting with ] (Sec Gen of the Arab League). You see what flag is behind Meshal right? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::Of course they will use the PNA flag - they see themselves as the legitimate government of the PA. But referring to the conflict in Gaza as if it directly impacted the whole PA is like referring to an attack on Taiwan as an attack on entire China (both PRC and ROC). ] (]) 22:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Have you looked at the article? Where do we say this was an attack on the whole of the PA? We say it was an attack on Gaza. And, again, this is the flag of Palestine, not the Palestinian National Authority. Was the ] an attack on the entire United Kingdom? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 23:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::Both examples are not good. Taiwan and China are de facto separate entities with different flags; Falklands are not de facto separate entity but an integral part of UK. Besides, the flag must refer to political entity, not people of a certain nationality. As said, Gaza Strip is de facto separate entity, let's assume as an axiom that its representatives consider traditional Palestinian flag as the only valid for Gaza as well. Actually, this means that Nableezy is right - the belligerent on the left is Israel (however, what does ISA doing there?), the belligerent on the right is Gaza Strip (and not Palestinian Authority). I suggest to terminate the discussion and move on. --] <sup>(])</sup> 06:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

:::::Taiwan is the de facto separate entity, for it claims independence and China objects(on enough compromising ground that countries have chosen sides). China is not being claimed by anyone, let alone Taiwan. According to this revisionary claim, the example could and is an acceptable one. We should move on etc, but we can't deny that Palestine is, and has been at with Israel for quite some time, no matter who we may list as belligerent at this time(or today's flag maybe). I liked Agada's momentum this time, but that "the PNA flag is not the flag of Palestine" just derailed all hope. :P ] (]) 04:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::Whether ] includes ] is not universally agreed upon outside the ]. ] (]) 09:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::Not that it really matter but I've to to say that Taiwan does not ] If it tried I'd be editing the article about that war instead of this one. --] (]) 23:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

:::::::Yes yes, China has been very verbose about this(daring them to try). ] (]) 00:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

===]===
]: ''The middle of the earth!''<br/>]: ''Nah ...'']]
East of the middle of the earth, there was couple of groups, countries or other entities which acted in a hostile manner, such as engaging in ]. Unlike the colloquial use of ''belligerent'' to mean aggressive, its formal use does not necessarily imply that the belligerent is an ]. If you look how this war started and ended, the actors were ] with ] and ] with ] as its respectable formal heads. They in their official roles declared war and they ceased acting in hostile manner.<br/>
<s>|combatant1= {{flagicon|Israel}} ] (]) + (])</s><br/>
<s>|combatant2= {{flagicon|Palestinian Authority}} ] (Principally ])</s><br/>
|combatant1= ]<br/>
|combatant2= ]<br/>
] (]) 10:19, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
:The belligerent isnt going to be listed as Hamas by itself for a number of reasons. Hamas is the government of Gaza and unless you want it to say Kadima/Labor instead of Israel you are not being consistent in your postion. A number of other groups joined Hamas in fighting. Really Agada, we have been through this way too many times, you have been saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over. Please stop. NPOV does not mean treating the Israeli government narrative that this was an attack only on Hamas as gospel truth. It does not mean Hamas gets treated different because certain people in this world do not like them. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:57, 6 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::Generally , <font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>, let's avoid "this is like something else" allegories. I assume there is no dispute regarding '''combatant1''': ] + ] are just ]'s arms. The head of the '''combatant1''''s pyramid was ], during "in a hostile manner" arm waving. Regarding '''combatant2''' both war start and end declarations firmly attributed to Hamas politburo according to independent sources. The head of the '''combatant2''''s pyramid was ] (great photo btw), which moved his arms "in a hostile manner" during the conflict. ] (]) 20:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Agada, would you mind reading ] and let me know if you want to keep doing this? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 20:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::Disruptive, ] (]) 09:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::How so? There was an error in the code causing that not to display on the Arabic wiki, I fixed that error. That isnt disruptive. Keeping this argument alive for no reason is. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 13:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::And you might want to change that picture. I was expecting an elf or something. --] (]) 23:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
:::I think it's an allegory. ] (]) 01:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
::December 19 2008:
::January 6, 2009:
::January 13, 2009: ] (]) 22:06, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
::January 18 2009:
::] (]) 09:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
::May 4, 2009: ] (]) 22:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Agada, aren't you being tired of endless discussions about least significant matters? I've been seeing this going on for months. If anything, then ISA should be removed, and Hamas could be substituted with Al-Qassam brigades. --] <sup>(])</sup> 10:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
::::He does have a point though. It was the Hamas leadership outside Gaza that announced the beginning and end of hostilities. These people have no official position in the Palestinian government, no matter who you think the legitimate government is. If they are the ones who called the shots then it is Hamas as an organization who were the belligerents, not Hamas as the government of Gaza. ] (]) 15:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Not really. Hamas does have an official position in the Palestinian government (majority of the legislative council) and they are the government of Gaza, legitimate or otherwise. Having spokespeople and officials outside of Gaza does not change that. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::Hamas has an official position in the Palestinian government but the two are not one and the same. Not everything Hamas does is necessarily in its capacity as the Palestinian government. This is particularly apparent when Khaled Mashaal (who's not exactly a "spokesperson" or just an "official") makes the decisions. ] (]) 16:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::That's a name I haven't seen here for a while. I'd be glad if you stay, NMMNG, and help me with numerous things to be done yet - and believe me this is not one of them. Gaza Strip is a de facto separate political entity, whose leadership claim to be the legal representatives of NPA, the flag of Gaza thus is the same tricolor. Note that Hamas flag is attached to the leaders there and I think it is a fair compromise. Now Nableezy, for the sake of reciprocality, Israeli chain of command should start with PM too. It means we can do without Eisenberg. --] <sup>(])</sup> 18:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::I dont think "commanders" is meant to be used as it is, it should be the military commanders not the political leaders. So I think the Israeli side is correct and the Gaza side is incorrect. But to make it equal we could either make them both wrong or both right. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::::I appreciate the invite, Sceptic, but to be honest I don't have the time or inclination to spend hours of my life arguing minute points in what is a notoriously unreliable section of a semi-reliable encyclopedia. Since every little change requires endless back and forth between the two sides, IMO only someone with the tenacity of a dedicated activist can really influence what the article looks like. Unfortunately I'm not one of those. ] (]) 18:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::No More Mr Nice Guy, thank you for articulating the point: Hamas and Gaza government is not the same thing. Legitimacy of Hamas controlled Gaza government is irrelevant to this discussion. Here how independent sources describe the events: . Ismail Haniyeh as PM is speaking on behalf of Gaza government, Abu Ubaida (in the same source), speaking on behalf of Hamas's Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades. Both officials' quotes are '''reactions''' to decision made by higher authorities. So Hamas politburo was decision making '''head''' and Gaza government and Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades were policy executing '''arms''' during Gaza war. ] (]) 20:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::That's a good quote. The ceasefire decision was made by Hamas, but not the parts of Hamas that are part of the Palestinian government. ] (]) 21:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Kind of unrelated to Gaza war, Palestinian sources describe elections mechanism of the "Political Bureau" and its role: ] (]) 22:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::If no one objects, I'm going to implement the change, after weekend. ] (]) 21:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::A number of people have objected, quickly scanning there is me, RomaC, even Sceptic agrees this should be the flag. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 22:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::Please see suggested change above, bellow "Middle earth". I accept your "no flags" compromise. I hope I gathered enough '''independent''' sources to support the change. Did not you get No More Mr Nice Guy explanations? I assumed silence is agreement... What still concerns you, <font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>? ] (]) 22:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
:::I did see, the issue that both RomaC and I raised is that you are trying to treat the governments unequally. If you want to be consistent say "Hamas" and "Kadima". At least 3 users have said the belligerent should be Gaza. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 00:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::And silence can mean that others are tired of responding to the same arguments over and over. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 00:23, 9 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::According to you RomaC would write that Israel is occupied by Gaza in order "to treat the governments equally"? Please address decision making mechanism of '''combatant2'''. Did you have time to read the sources? ] (]) 01:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Uhh no, that makes no sense. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 01:55, 9 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::::You say "Hamas and Gaza government is not the same thing." Is there any evidence that there were hostilities with Hamas outside of Gaza? Did Israel attack Damascus in an attempt kill Meshal? I must have missed that. These were Gaza government ministries that were attacked, Gaza infrastructure such police stations. Hamas was not alone fighting here, other groups were involved as well. This was not just a war on Hamas as the Israeli foreign ministry would have us believe, and the fact that Hamas leadership outside of Gaza made statements means nothing. The belligerent was Gaza, the political entity that was engaged in conflict with Israel. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 02:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::::::Following your logic maybe we should change '''combatant1''' to Southern Israel. ] (]) 03:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::You are not following my logic, so no we should not. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 04:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::::::I don't think it is unusual for a government to craft their terms and classifications hoping to win public or international support for attacks that leave civilians dead. Note that President Truman, in his historic radio address 65 years ago described "Little Boy's" target as . Not surprisingly the Gaza and Israeli governments both use non-neutral terms to refer to the other side. Agada I think what people are saying here is that Wiki should not get tangled up in this rhetoric. Israel and Gaza are the subjects, avoid contentious political qualifications. Support further identifying involved parties and politicians and fighters and so on in the body of the article. ] (]) 03:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Governments are evil - I feel your pain, RomaC ;) Which of the sources brought was of Israeli government? I fail to see how President Truman position on Hiroshima attack is relevant to this discussion. ] (]) 03:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::How about these sources? , ? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 04:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::::::::Great sources, both concentrating on Israel's attack in Gaza. Regarding '''combatant2''' belligerent (actor performing hostile activity) first source mention: "Hamas continued to fire rockets", second mention: "Hamas has pressed on with rocket and mortar assaults". So those sources also agree that '''combatant2''' belligerent is ]. Looks consistent also with ceasefire declaration attributed to Hamas politburo by sources brought earlier. ] (]) 05:35, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::Saying "Hamas continued to fire rockets" is the same thing as saying "the Israeli Air Force dropped bombs". It doesnt make the IAF the belligerent. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 05:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::::::::::Not exactly. Both sources talk about ]'s assault, ] is being mentioned. I'm not sure what point you tried to demonstrate with those sources. Please stop a second before another allegory and think. Do sources report that IAF declared ceasefire? Hamas politburo declared ceasefire on behalf of Gaza Strip. What do you think was Hamas politburo part in Gaza war events? ] (]) 06:47, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

== Interview with Maj. Gen. Ido Nehushtan ==

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4216231&c=FEA&s=INT ] (]) 20:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
:Speaking of aftermath and deterrence - : "The calm in the western Negev continues. Hamas refrains from firing rockets into Israel and its senior figures emphasize for Western ears its policy of restraint." Pay attention to the rockets/mortars chart. The same chart, not including last three weeks, is presented in the Israeli Government report above. If the policy allows, I think it could be used in the article. Interesting to note that indeed last months were the more quiet than during the lull. And here is the : "Armed resistance is still important and legitimate, but we have a new emphasis on cultural resistance...The current situation required a stoppage of rockets. After the war, the fighters needed a break and the people needed a break". --] <sup>(])</sup> 06:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

== <s>Law</s> Explosions ==

Is this article still about international law? I figured I would "bump" some archived discussions to see if more information could be given to the actual conflict.
*Commanders in the infobox: Should this be amended to include the actual commanders on the ground or the political command?
*Images: Tanks, dudes with rockets or guns, and planes could be useful
*Where should Naval info go? It doesn't seme to fit in the prose with the current layout since we only have 1 source (can you find any others also?)
*Does anyone subscribe to the IAF's magazine? This info could be useful from what I have found and I would hate to have to purchase it or receive an unpaid copy through another method.
*Iranian trained Hamas. This is somewhat interesting due to the West's demonizing of Iran but is really really interesting due to their pseudo commando status. Any sources on this that are tight?
*Any thoughts on the ever expanding intl law section style wise? ] (]) 07:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
:*If you ask me, no need to bump anything. Every discussion that was started resulted in rewriting the relevant section in Int-Law. I hope I'll find time is the coming days to improve the weapons section there, but anyway I'll start a separate discussion for that.
:*Commanders - no specific preference, as majority decides.
:*I'll take another look at Israeli Government report, if we could find any useful image there.
:*Naval info - why not adjacent to AirForce?
:*Can't help with subscription, but here are 4 additional pieces from Defence News, still not fully exhausted: , , , .
:*Iranian trained Hamas - this is a common knowledge, man. Do we have to reference that 2+2=4?
:*Didn't understand the actual question in the last bullet. --] <sup>(])</sup> 11:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
::I worded it wrong. My point was that I am crabby over the weight of intl law in the article still (boo hoo for me). Hoping consensus will revisit and adjust the commanders in the infobox, Naval is going in, agreed on the math, and hooray more Defense News since I only saw one earlier. I'll fiddle with somethings tomorrow more than likely. Anyone feel free to do whatever is needed if it isn't up to par.] (]) 12:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
:::I wish it were like any other military conflict, but it isn't. Do you know any other similar event with such amount of attention from human rights groups, politicians, media commentaries and committees - everybody talking about Int-Law violations? Rhetoric question, but the point is that the length of the section is dictated by overweight attention that this topic is given. I argue that it became the central issue of the debates. This is why I dedicate so much attention to it and will be reluctant to any revisions. --] <sup>(])</sup> 17:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

::::I still think it has undue weight in this article. That's not a criticism, it's a compliment. I wish more articles had sections with undue weight so that more detailed subarticles could be spun off. That's how it's meant to work I guess. I don't agree with your argument that it needs to stay in this article because it's size reflects the weight in RS. The reactions section was spun off to a subarticle precisely because of the sheer volume of information associated with that issue in RS. The intlaw section could be put in a subarticle as is without losing information. Of course then someone would have to summarise it for this article and maybe no one has the time or inclination at the moment. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 02:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)...also, if you do need a ref for 2+2=4 you can use ]. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 02:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Disputes related to alleged violations of IHL is a core issue, reactions from the world leaders are not. In the meantime, 'Gaza humanitarian crisis', very long and detailed subsection, could be easily spun off into subarticle - with all the respect to the hard life of the Gazan population, this is not a core issue and talks about imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza circulate for more than a decade now. --] <sup>(])</sup> 04:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::Why are legal opinions about events a core issue ? Aren't the events the core issue e.g. lots of people homeless = a neutral fact = core issue, opinions about lots of people homeless = non-neutral, non-fact = not a core issue. Seems obvious. The core issue for the article is describing what happened. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 05:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::We constantly disagree on this one. I argue that your notion of the neutral fact is misleading, because it strips the fact from the context. E.g. 'lots of people homeless' - you suggest to stop here and dismiss everything else. But I demand to preserve the context. Why numerous people in Indonesia are homeless? Is it because their traditional way of life? Is it because of tsunami? Is it because of the authorities' negligence? Is it because somebody ruined them? Why that somebody ruined them - out of evil intentions or because of real and proven military necessity? Another example - hostage killed in the course of rescue operation. That's tragic. But the story gets different perspectives if we ask questions: who killed him - a villain? a policeman? or maybe a corrupted policeman (remember ]?)? or maybe he was killed before the operation and it triggered the start of the operation? So, for me this is not obvious at all and I am convinced the IHL section is a core section of the whole article. --] <sup>(])</sup> 06:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::I haven't seen The Negotiator. But I think that the context should be factual and upfront, like the Star Wars opening scroll. The international law section is more of a ] kind of thing. --] (]) 07:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Sceptic, this is BS. It's like Zeno's 'motion is impossible' argument or perhaps that a butterfly beating it's wings eventually resulted in Gaza being flattened by IAF bombs. The events themselves provide sufficient context. Yes, there's a complex web of causal relationships between events but let's keep it simple and within scope of this article. Motion is possible and the butterfly is not within scope of this article. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 08:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC)..also the negotiator was rubbish. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 08:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::The Negotiator was great and for that alone I could file a charge against you. You want to stick to events? Good. The problem is that each observer or commentator see some events and disregard other and gives different weight to each event. You say: "the event is 'Gaza being flattened by IAF bombs'". I say "no, the events are: Hamas placed its military bases amidst civilian population and turned houses, mosques and even hospitals into weaponry warehouses; Hamas launched dozens of rockets on Israel between Dec. 19 and 27; IAF attacked only what is considered legitimate military target." You say "the event is many hundreds of Palestinians are dead". I say "no, the events are: Hamas jeopardized civilians in Gaza in every possible way which is a war crime; civilians got killed". You say "the event is 'thousands of houses were demolished'". I say "no, the events are: Hamas dug tunnels under almost every house in Gaza; Hamas fighters used them to flank soldiers; houses that posed potential threat were demolished". You say the events are: "Amnesty accused Israel of killing dozens of civilian police". I say "no, the events are: 90% of recruited policemen were operatives in Hamas; Amnesty accused Israel of killing dozens of civilian police without checking out their affiliation to terrorist organization". I can go like this for ages, you know. This is why the article is so lengthy. Because there's apparently no such thing as neutral undisputed fact, not when dealing with this highly politicized matter. --] <sup>(])</sup> 11:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::You know what, I was wrong. I looked up the opening crawl for the first Star Wars "prequel", ] and it reads like it Khaled Meshal wrote it. So never mind:<br /><br />"Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute. Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo. While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict.... --] (]) 23:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::'''Support''' - changing the lede to use this style to increase readership. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 01:19, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

→Cptnono, check out . --] <sup>(])</sup> 04:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
:badass (both your resourcefulness and the candidness of the commander)] (]) 10:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
::This word (badass) made me use my dictionary - and you no what? It didn't help me because it has several contradictious meanings. But I'll take it in a positive sense :) --] <sup>(])</sup> 12:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
:::As it should be!] (])

== Images from IMFA report ==

4 images that imho could be used. check it out: ], ], ], ] --] <sup>(])</sup> 17:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
:The first one is a problem, it is just a claim of Israel that this took place in a mosque and there is no evidence that it took place in a mosque during this conflict. The double affiliation one I also have a problem with. I dont see the point. Unless there is some source saying this person was killed while engaging in armed conflict and that he was counted as a civilian it only seems to try to prove a point. The aftermath one is fine, not sure where it would fit. The last one could concievably be used, not sure where though. But I do have problem with using the pictures from a primary source about "the enemy". <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:Actually one of the pictures in the mosque one looks like there is a mihrab, so that very well may be a mosque. All the same, it is still from a primary source involved in the conflict so the rest of my above remark stands. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
::*Weapons in mosque - and if in the caption to the image it is well-attributed to the IMFA report?
::*Aftermath - I think separate section in the article, following 'continued negotiations' subsection, should be created. The image is to illustrate ("The current situation required a stoppage of rockets. After the war, the fighters needed a break and the people needed a break") and ("Hamas's policy of restraint has come under severe criticism from radical Islamic organizations (such as the Islamic Liberation Party) and local groups affiliated with Al-Qaeda and the global jihad. Hamas has been accused of abandoning the principle of jihad (one of the pillars of Islam) in order to strengthen its control over the Gaza Strip").
::*Military camps - its natural place would be 'Palestinian military activity', so the question remains: is attribution to IMFA report enough.
::*Double affiliation - to start with, if anyone wants to determine the image authenticity, the report gives us the name (Adel Abu Awn) and the source (Hamas forum, 20 January 2009), but unfortunately no link. But whoever reads and writes Arabic, this can be traced. The point of the image is to illustrate the double affiliation of policemen in Gaza, either in 'disputed figures' subsection or in 'IntLaw-Attacks on civil police'. Again, attribution can be constructed. --] <sup>(])</sup> 04:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
::::I dont know if I think attribution is enough for some of these pictures. I am pretty tolerant of sourcing for pictures (though I do note that all the pictures depicting Palestinian casualties and damage were forced to come from a reliable secondary source (an impossible standard when you also include it has to be free per ] until Al-Jazeera released their creative commons collection), a number of other pictures were rejected on sourcing grounds. I have not tried to remove the pictures on the "other side" that did not meet those standards, but these carry conclusions in the photos. The military training grounds one, is there any evidence that these places actually were besides the Israeli government? But lets see what everybody else has to say. I do have reservations though. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 04:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
:::::General approach is clear. Let's put it this way - I'm not pushing anything, each image will be introduced if the consensus is reached. So, I ask to provide a final opinion on each of the images. Thanks. --] <sup>(])</sup> 05:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::The obvious problem is that we risk turning Misplaced Pages from a neutral encyclopedia into a propaganda instrument of the Israeli government. Some may argue that that is a considerable step forward. Nevertheless, Nab sums it up nicely by describing it as 'using the pictures from a primary source about "the enemy"'.
::::::GazaWar weapons in mosque.jpg - Some weapons somewhere on planet earth. Not informative.
::::::GazaWar aftermath.jpg - Clearly okay (with attribution) and could be used in several articles.
::::::GazaWar double affiliation.jpg - The words in the article are enough to convey the information.
::::::GazaWar military camps.jpg - I like this one. Given very heavy attributions/caveats/disclaimers/this-could-be-bullshit-warnings it could be a nice encyclopedic addition to illustrate the IDF narrative. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 17:20, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Having said that the ideal approach for me would be to balance abstracted, depopulated, military images like GazaWar military camps.jpg by using images of the carnage that resulted from the strikes on those targets. That probably isn't possible unfortunately. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 17:57, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Between the two I actually think the mosque one is better than the camps. At least it shows some weapons in some rooms. It has to be at least half true because the group of weapons looks sparse and decrepit. I don't have my glasses on but it seriously looks like there's some jars in the top right picture that could go into that new Acropolis museum. The camps picture is easier to make up and relies on the ministry's definitions of "military base" and "training camp". Sometimes the Israeli government has different definitions for things like that than I might. --] (]) 23:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Gentlemen, let's keep it simple. I'll make a subsection for each image and you provide your decision - support or objection. You don't even have to explain why (unless you feel you must) --] <sup>(])</sup> 10:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

===Weapons in mosque===

===Aftermath===

===Double affiliation===


:Al-Qassam Brigades actively works with Hamas, but is not Hamas. In fact, it was originally part of Fatah. Here, I think Hamas is just specifying the number of combatants each group lost, rather than contradicting itself.
===Military camps===
:<br>
:Israel considers police and security officers to be combatants if they enter combat when they're on duty -- regardless of whether they're Israeli or Palestinian. As far as I've been able to tell, Hamas doesn't count them as combatants even if they enter combat and are on duty.
:<br>
:
:<br>
:"To deconstruct these figures properly, the status of the Gaza police must first be considered, since approximately 250 of them were among those listed as 'civilians' who were killed. Although the Goldstone Report concludes that the Gaza police force was a 'civilian law-enforcement agency,' there is overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise.
:<br>
:"The Gaza police has its origins in the Hamas Executive Force. When the Executive Force was formed in 2006, its commander announced that the force was 'the nucleus of the future Palestinian army. The resistance must continue. We have only one enemy. They are Jews. We have no other enemy. I will continue to carry the rifle and pull the trigger whenever required to defend my people.' According to the report, the Executive Force merged with a reorganized PA police in October 2007.
:<br>
:"Despite the fact that the Executive Force no longer technically exists, during Operation Cast Lead a police spokesman said, 'Police officers received clear orders from the leadership to face the enemy, if the Gaza Strip were to be invaded.' This is conclusive evidence that the Gaza police were not entitled to the protections accorded to civilians in war. In addition, evidence suggests many policemen were combatant individuals regardless of their connection with the police.
:<br>
:"According to one count, 91% of the policemen killed were either members of a terrorist organization or in infantry training, with a 'decisive majority' of casualties belonging to military wings.
:<br>
:"In any event, reasonable people can and do disagree as to the status of the Gaza policemen killed by Israel. they cannot simply be lumped together with infants and other obvious non-combatants for purposes
:of listing the number of dead civilians." ] (]) 06:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
::Forgot to ping: @] ] (]) 06:41, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
::{{re|Oakling}} Sorry for the delay. The source you cited seems to be a ] work by two authors known to be pro-Israel advocates. There are a few misleading claims here:
::*"The Gaza police has its origins in the Hamas Executive Force."
::**What the police ''used'' to be has no relevance. We know that ] used to serve in the IDF, but given his IDF service ended in Apr 2023, he was rightfully considered civilian on Oct 7.
::*"According to one count, 91% of the policemen killed were either members of a terrorist organization"
::**Well, yes. According to Israel all Hamas members are considered terrorist, yet we know that Hamas also runs the civilian aspects of Gaza.
::*"Police officers received clear orders from the leadership to face the enemy, if the Gaza Strip were to be invaded."
::**This appears to be a misleading translation. The man who made these instructions clarified "{{tq|Mr. Shahwan stated that the instructions given at that meeting were to the effect that in the event of a ground invasion, and particularly if the Israeli armed forces were to enter urban settlements in Gaza, the police was to continue its work of ensuring that basic food stuffs reached the population, of directing the population to safe places, and of upholding public order in the face of the invasion. Mr. Shahwan further stated that not a single policeman had been killed in combat during the armed operations, proving that the instructions had been strictly obeyed by the policemen.}}" (416)
::**Further, the Goldstone report notes that 75% of police had been killed in a surprise Israeli attack before the ground invasion began.
::*Further, "{{tq|the Mission notes that there are no allegations that the police as an organized force took part in combat during the armed operations}}" (417). Indeed Dershowitz doesn't provide any specific examples of police taking part in combat.
::Other RS consider the police to be civilians, for example (page 588) and .''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 02:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)


== After the Hamas election in 2006, they rejected the recognition of Israel, but offered a 10 year truce, or Hudna ==
== 4th HRW report, 2 more to come ==


Typically covering 10 years, a hudna is recognised in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. A hudna extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, non-violent resolution to their differences.
Yesterday HRW publish another (but not the last) report, this time . For me the most surprising part is that it took 6 months to issue a report that covers no new ground and largely repeats similar reports and statements; one can only wonder is it coincidence or not, but the publication is just several weeks after the controversial news about HRW raising funds in Saudia using the Israel-condemning report surfaced. Maybe I'll substitute older HRW sources with this one. --] <sup>(])</sup> 13:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


Why the Hamas charter isn’t a key obstacle to peace with Israel (theconversation.com)(source)
:HRW collecting funds from people in Saudi Arabia was discussed in detail ] prior to it's move to the subarticle if anyone wants to contribute. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 16:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/nov/01/israel
:Yeah, that happens every time somebody releases a report. They tend to say nothing new but everybody gets all worked up anyway. But thanks for the link. --] (]) 23:11, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


This is vital information on the events leading to the Siege of Gaza in 2007. The offer of Hudna should be inserted in this article in the third paragraph of the Background section, after "Hamas rejected..." ] (]) 16:23, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
:Several secondary sources: , , , the last one has this valuable addition, "they pointed out that the International Crisis Group interviewed three Hamas fighters in January who said, "They had often fired rockets in close proximity to homes and from alleys, hoping that nearby civilians would deter Israel from responding." --] <sup>(])</sup> 09:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
:Sources? ] (]) 16:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
:Please phrase this as a request to change X to Y in the article and provide suitable sources, per ], thanks. ] (]) 16:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)


::Several sentences from summary, I find particilarly useful.<ref name="Rockets from Gaza - summary">, HRW, August 5, 2009</ref> --] <sup>(])</sup> 12:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
::"The purpose of the laws of war is not to create parity between parties to a conflict, or to assess their violations in light of their relevant capacities, but to minimize the harm to the civilian population. Violations of the laws of war are not measured in the number of civilian casualties, but whether each side is taking all feasible precautions to minimize civilian loss"
::"Since 2001, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in Gaza have fired thousands of rockets deliberately or indiscriminately at civilian areas in Israel...Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have sought to justify the attacks as appropriate reprisals for Israeli military operations and the ongoing blockade against Gaza, and as a lawful response to the Israeli occupation of Gaza. As noted below, international humanitarian law (the “laws of war”) does not support these asserted justifications... such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures. Individuals who willfully authorize or carry out deliberate or indiscriminate attacks against civilians are committing war crimes. reprisal attacks that target civilians are prohibited under any circumstances. Even assuming the rocket attacks were intended as reprisals for Israeli attacks that killed and injured civilians, they still are unlawful under the laws of war. The law governing reprisals—defined as otherwise unlawful actions that are considered lawful when used as an enforcement measure in reaction to an adversary’s unlawful acts—does not permit direct or indiscriminate attacks on civilians."
::"The rocket attacks have also placed civilians in Gaza at risk. The unpredictable nature of the crude rockets has meant that rockets have struck areas not only inside Israel but also inside Gaza; on December 26 a rocket hit a house in Beit Lahiya, killing two Palestinian girls, ages 5 and 12. In addition, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have frequently violated the laws of war by firing rockets from within populated areas. In doing so, they failed to take all feasible precautions to avoid placing military targets within densely populated areas, such as by removing civilians under their control from the vicinity of military targets, and protecting civilians from the danger resulting from military operations."


== Don't include Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades under Fatah in infobox ==
== More on the weapons used ==


Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades separated from Fatah in 2008, prior to this conflict. Fatah should not be in the belligerents column, at least not as a parent organization of Al-Aqsa. ] (]) 23:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
1. Just preceding the ground phase, Haaretz reported that: . Amnesty stated that . However, , says David Hambling (simple Google search shows that he is notable writer on military issues including ).
2. Another interesting article by Hambling: . The bottom line: despite Anesty's conclusion that "They appear designed to cause maximum injury", seems like "This type of ultra-precise strike capability is supposed to limit collateral damage and civilian casualties". It is arguable to what extent this indeed happened, but the intent...


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 August 2024 ==
And now the question - do we include this and if we do, should it go to Int-Law section - Israel - weapons? --] <sup>(])</sup> 19:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
{{Edit extended-protected|ans=y}}
, but could someone add the following word in bold, which is gramatically more correct?:


Most right-wing opposition parties, '''including''' ], etc, etc, etc
== Notice ==


Thanks--] (]) 19:58, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
A thread concerning this page has been initiated at ].--'']] ]'' 04:56, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
:{{done}} ] (]) 00:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)


== Admin? == == First Gaza War ==


I propose adding "First Gaza War" as an alternative name for this conflict. I , with supporting references, but was reverted by {{u|Slatersteven}}. I didn't think this would have needed consensus before being added. It's a minor addition, it's properly-referenced (and there are many other references that could be added), and the name is used more often recently to distinguish this war from the other Gaza wars. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 10:22, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
This article needs to be semi-protected. ] (]) 11:10, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
:Do any RS call it this? ] (]) 10:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
::Huh? I added three RS's in my edit. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 10:27, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Sorry, but it does not alter the fact, this should not have been done without consensus. ] (]) 10:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Sorry, I didn't notice the hidden message when making my edit. I should've looked more carefully.<br/>Aside from that, do you oppose "First Gaza War" being in the article as an alternative name? – ] <sup>(])</sup> 13:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::No, I just happen to think the rules apply to everyone, even if I agree with them. ] (]) 13:15, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

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Hamas claims of casualties

Hamas never said that 600-700 of its members died. The Haaretz article in fact quotes Hamas as saying 200-300 Al-Qassam brigades members died, but also quotes Hamas saying 49 of its members died. It also quotes "250 killed" at the police station, but these are not strictly from Hamas, nor is it clear if they are combatants at all. It also quotes an additional 150 security personnel, and again its not clear if they were combatants in the Gaza war or not.VR (Please ping on reply) 02:39, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Al-Qassam Brigades actively works with Hamas, but is not Hamas. In fact, it was originally part of Fatah. Here, I think Hamas is just specifying the number of combatants each group lost, rather than contradicting itself.

Israel considers police and security officers to be combatants if they enter combat when they're on duty -- regardless of whether they're Israeli or Palestinian. As far as I've been able to tell, Hamas doesn't count them as combatants even if they enter combat and are on duty.

Just came across this today:

"To deconstruct these figures properly, the status of the Gaza police must first be considered, since approximately 250 of them were among those listed as 'civilians' who were killed. Although the Goldstone Report concludes that the Gaza police force was a 'civilian law-enforcement agency,' there is overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise.

"The Gaza police has its origins in the Hamas Executive Force. When the Executive Force was formed in 2006, its commander announced that the force was 'the nucleus of the future Palestinian army. The resistance must continue. We have only one enemy. They are Jews. We have no other enemy. I will continue to carry the rifle and pull the trigger whenever required to defend my people.' According to the report, the Executive Force merged with a reorganized PA police in October 2007.

"Despite the fact that the Executive Force no longer technically exists, during Operation Cast Lead a police spokesman said, 'Police officers received clear orders from the leadership to face the enemy, if the Gaza Strip were to be invaded.' This is conclusive evidence that the Gaza police were not entitled to the protections accorded to civilians in war. In addition, evidence suggests many policemen were combatant individuals regardless of their connection with the police.

"According to one count, 91% of the policemen killed were either members of a terrorist organization or in infantry training, with a 'decisive majority' of casualties belonging to military wings.

"In any event, reasonable people can and do disagree as to the status of the Gaza policemen killed by Israel. they cannot simply be lumped together with infants and other obvious non-combatants for purposes
of listing the number of dead civilians." Oakling (talk) 06:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Forgot to ping: @VR Oakling (talk) 06:41, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
@Oakling: Sorry for the delay. The source you cited seems to be a WP:SELFPUB work by two authors known to be pro-Israel advocates. There are a few misleading claims here:
  • "The Gaza police has its origins in the Hamas Executive Force."
    • What the police used to be has no relevance. We know that Hersh Goldberg-Polin used to serve in the IDF, but given his IDF service ended in Apr 2023, he was rightfully considered civilian on Oct 7.
  • "According to one count, 91% of the policemen killed were either members of a terrorist organization"
    • Well, yes. According to Israel all Hamas members are considered terrorist, yet we know that Hamas also runs the civilian aspects of Gaza.
  • "Police officers received clear orders from the leadership to face the enemy, if the Gaza Strip were to be invaded."
    • This appears to be a misleading translation. The man who made these instructions clarified "Mr. Shahwan stated that the instructions given at that meeting were to the effect that in the event of a ground invasion, and particularly if the Israeli armed forces were to enter urban settlements in Gaza, the police was to continue its work of ensuring that basic food stuffs reached the population, of directing the population to safe places, and of upholding public order in the face of the invasion. Mr. Shahwan further stated that not a single policeman had been killed in combat during the armed operations, proving that the instructions had been strictly obeyed by the policemen." Goldstone report (416)
    • Further, the Goldstone report notes that 75% of police had been killed in a surprise Israeli attack before the ground invasion began.
  • Further, "the Mission notes that there are no allegations that the police as an organized force took part in combat during the armed operations" (417). Indeed Dershowitz doesn't provide any specific examples of police taking part in combat.
Other RS consider the police to be civilians, for example Is There a Court for Gaza? (page 588) and Karma Chavez.VR (Please ping on reply) 02:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

After the Hamas election in 2006, they rejected the recognition of Israel, but offered a 10 year truce, or Hudna

Typically covering 10 years, a hudna is recognised in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. A hudna extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, non-violent resolution to their differences.

Why the Hamas charter isn’t a key obstacle to peace with Israel (theconversation.com)(source)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/nov/01/israel

This is vital information on the events leading to the Siege of Gaza in 2007. The offer of Hudna should be inserted in this article in the third paragraph of the Background section, after "Hamas rejected..." Bill Shortell (talk) 16:23, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Sources? Slatersteven (talk) 16:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Please phrase this as a request to change X to Y in the article and provide suitable sources, per WP:ARBECR, thanks. Selfstudier (talk) 16:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)


Don't include Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades under Fatah in infobox

Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades separated from Fatah in 2008, prior to this conflict. Fatah should not be in the belligerents column, at least not as a parent organization of Al-Aqsa. Bill3602 (talk) 23:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 August 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This edit is correct, but could someone add the following word in bold, which is gramatically more correct?:

Most right-wing opposition parties, including Likud, etc, etc, etc

Thanks--37.212.89.252 (talk) 19:58, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done Left guide (talk) 00:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

First Gaza War

I propose adding "First Gaza War" as an alternative name for this conflict. I had added it, with supporting references, but was reverted by Slatersteven. I didn't think this would have needed consensus before being added. It's a minor addition, it's properly-referenced (and there are many other references that could be added), and the name is used more often recently to distinguish this war from the other Gaza wars. – Asarlaí 10:22, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Do any RS call it this? Slatersteven (talk) 10:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Huh? I added three RS's in my edit. – Asarlaí 10:27, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, but it does not alter the fact, this should not have been done without consensus. Slatersteven (talk) 10:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't notice the hidden message when making my edit. I should've looked more carefully.
Aside from that, do you oppose "First Gaza War" being in the article like this as an alternative name? – Asarlaí 13:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
No, I just happen to think the rules apply to everyone, even if I agree with them. Slatersteven (talk) 13:15, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
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