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==Page moved==
* ] <small>(August–October 2009)</small>
The page was moved for a number of reasons. Apart from those mentioned in the move summary, this title is most neutral. I don't like titles including "organ harvesting" as the claims made by Aftonbladet are so vague and unsourced that no organ harvesting has been proved or even made suspiscious. Such titles are a bit pro-Aftonbladet POV. I also dislike titles involving antisemitism, since they per se conclude that antisemitism was an issue in the publication and thus are anti-Aftonbladet POV. The current title makes it clear that this was a controversy involving Aftonbladet and Israel but does not take sides on the topic itself.] (]) 22:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
}}
:could someone translate the article title in swedish wikipedia --] (]) 22:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
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{{Clear}}


== Mess ==
:Putting Isreal in the article name is misleading. The Aftonbladet criticism has moved far beyond the Isreali FM and is being discussed way beyond Israel's shores. Indeed, this is not so much an Israeli issue, but a Jewish issue. Although are plenty of conspiracy theories going around, this specific libel struck the cord of Jews worldwide because of Jews' history of suffering from these types of ]. Thus, this is much more about antisemitism, then about Israel per se. Granted, that at this time, the evidence that this article arose from antisemitism is only circumstantial, but its antisemitism that is the bete noir and main undercurrent here and should properly be represented in the article name.--'']] ]'' 22:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


The article needs to be rewritten, I suggest to write first an introduction, followed by the israeli reaction and allegations of antisemetism, then the swedish government reaction --] (]) 22:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
::"Indeed, this is not so much an Israeli issue, but a Jewish issue." That is your opinion and I dare say that it is not correct. The allegations were made against the IDF. It's the an ''Israeli'' army, not a ''Jewish'' army. There are people of different religions and ethnicities in the IDF, they are all Israeli but they are not all Jewish. For all we know, the soldiers having killed the boy mentioned in the articles could have been, say, Druzes. Liberman is a state representative of Israel, not the Jewish people of which the majority live in other countries that Israel. So having Israel in the name is in no way misleading.] (]) 23:27, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
:::I support Jeppiz' reasoning and think the title "Aftonbladet-Israel controversy" is quite resonable, and also short. ] (]) 14:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC) :I agree that the article needs massive cleanup. The "Harvesting Allegations Confirmed" section should really be moved much higher, maybe even right after the introduction and before the reaction sections. ] (]) 19:57, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


== Papers which promote blood libel ==
:::I agree with Brewcrewer that putting "Israel" in the title is a bit misleading. This is not just a controversy between Aftonbladet and Israel. There has also been strong reactions in Sweden and several other countries for that matter. /] (]) 17:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


The "newspapers from Iran and Syria are not RS. Those quotes you provided are worse then the Swedish newspaper.Unfortunately this is another example of the blood libel that are spread in certain "free" coutries.
::::It was a reporter at Aftonbladet who raised questions about ] (Israel's army) practices. Israel's government officials publicly condemned Aftonbladet. They demanded Swedish government intervention; that government has chosen to remain uninvolved. Aftonbladet has stood by its right to freedom of expression. An Israeli lawyer has filed a suit against Aftonbladet for "'racist blood libel' against Jews and Israeli soldiers." I'd say that ] controversy pretty much sums up the main actors here, no? ]<sup>]</sup> 18:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


:::::The controversy mainly concerns allegations of antisemitism against Aftonbladet. Those allegations were made by many different individuals and organizations in Swedem, Israel and in other countries. /] (]) 18:35, 29 August 2009 (UTC) I have to get rid of this garbage. If you object we will go to the outside opinion for feedback--] (]) 11:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


:::::With no offense intended, that sounds rather like the position of the Israeli lawyer putting forward the libel suit. For most of the world, I think, this is about a report that was published in Aftonbladet that the Israeli government has taken deep offense to and is making a big stink about. Personally, I think its unwise and offensive for the Israeli government, or anyone else, to equate the raising of questions surrounding the practices of its army with blood libels against Jews everywhere. Certainly, I will not agree to titling this article in a way that predetermines a libel suit on that very issue that has yet to be heard. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC) :You cannot simply eliminate sources based on your opinion that they are not reliable sources. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


Mistake. I didn't chech the sourse. The sourse is fine- nojustification to erase- take my words back, still checking --] (]) 11:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::It is true that organ harvesting as well as antisemitism have been mentioned in the discussion. However, those who defend Aftonbladet and criticize Israel have focused on organ harvesting while those defending Israel and criticising Aftonbladet have focused on antisemitism. Neither of these topics satisfy ]. As for my own view, I try to treat the matter in a neutral way. That's why I moved the English article from the former title mentioning only antisemitism and why I moved the Swedish article from a title mentioning only organ harvesting in Israel. I know that both sides can make claims as to why the main topic is "Aftonbladet's antisemitism" or why it is "Israel's organ harvesting", but both of those titles reflect only the view of one side in the conflict, making them guiltu of POV.] (]) 19:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


Everything is OK but Al Aharam must go - this is not RS. It is funny given the fact that RSes spread the same garbage. There is important difference though. You have to present the garbage anyway to put it on the table, otherwise even more conspiracy theories will be invented. However Al Aharam link gives the appearance as a respectable paper which is not true. What do you think, Tiamut? --] (]) 12:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::"However, those who defend Aftonbladet and criticize Israel have focused on organ harvesting". Incorrect. Anyone in the ''mainstream'' that has defended Aftonbladet has defended them on the grounds of free press. There's no mainstream view that there's anything valid about the claims. WP must be in the mainstream as well and ensure that the correct frame of reference is presented. The consensus-less change to "Aftonbladet-Israel controversy" does not do enough to show that there's zero basis to any "organ harvesting" claims. It gives the impression that there's sort of debate between the paper and Israel whether organ harvesting took place. We don't want WP to come off as fringe-esque by representing these claims as somewhat valid. --'']] ]'' 01:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


:There is nothing wrong with using ] as a source. The material I added to the article is attributed to ]'s reporting in Al-Ahram. Have a little faith in th intelligence of our readership. They can make their own conclusions about what they want to believe after being presented with a wide array of views. We don't arbitrarily remove views simply because we think they are unreliable. ]<sup>]</sup> 12:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::"There's no mainstream view that there's anything valid about the claims." Absolutely correct, and that is why I moved the Swedish version of this article from "Organ harvesting controversy in Israel". However, I fail to see how you go from that very valid point to claiming that the title "gives the impression that there's sort of debate between the paper and Israel whether organ harvesting took place". That is your own interpretation. Having said that, we could of course discuss other alternatives for the title, but the previous title was only marginally less POV than the Swedish title. The title should be as neutral as possible, not taking sides on the issue. Arguments for different views should be made in the article, not in the title itself.] (]) 02:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


Well I noticed this quote in the article:
:::::::::"There's no mainstream view that there's anything valid about the claims." Dear Folks, in thirties there was also no mainstream view concerning the controversy between Nazis and Israel (as a nation). So let's hope this so called "controversy" would be less bloody then the last one. So far nothing suggests that. Not even this place. 23:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


"During an interview with Al-Jazeera in 2002, late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat accused Israel of murdering Palestinian children and harvesting their organs for transplant operations. "They murder our kids and use their organs as spare parts. Why is the whole world silent? Israel takes advantage of this silence to escalate its oppression and terror against our people," said an angry Arafat"
It's not that organ havesting is unknown. There have also been simmilar stories about organ harvesting in China (we even have ]), but I don't remember anyone calling it racism. // ] (])


What do you personally think about this quote? --] (]) 12:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
== Mess ==
:Do you think Arafat said this (that is, the source is correct)? If so, do you think publishing Arafat's comment in this article is acceptable/unacceptable? ] (]) 12:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


If you ask me I personally believe he says that ( of course my personal opinion doesn;t count here) however the quote is almoust identical to the article we are talking about. This is the same type of occusation no more and no less.Your question is if it acceptible or unecceptable. Depends on intentions.If it is to promote the blood libel it is one thing but if you put it against another opinion-this is completely different. Intention. This is what is important. --] (]) 12:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
The article needs to be rewritten, I suggest to write first an introduction, followed by the israeli reaction and allegations of antisemetism, then the swedish government reaction --] (]) 22:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


:: Strange, because Israel has admited it (in december 2009). If this was the same as the blood libel, then is the blood libel true???? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:09, 20 January 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
==antisemitism templates==
I am sceptic of trying to link antisemitism to this article. We can discuss it in the article, but having it in the title or in categories is, in my view, quite strong. I am not saying that we cannot discuss having it there as well, but that it precisely what we should do. '''Discuss''' whether the controversy is antisemitic or not, not having one user decide that it is so. Even most critics of Aftonbladet have stated explicitly that it is ''not'' antisemitic, no matter how ill-adviced they consider the publication. If users want to present arguments for this view they are most welcome to do so, but please stop doing this without prior discussions.] (]) 05:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
:As it's not possible to change one's edit summary, I'd like to state that my last edit summary at this article was very unfortunate and I apologize to Brewcrewer for it. Although I stand by my view that we should discuss before making claims that will be felt to be insulting by those at which we direct them, I should not get personal like I unfortunately did. I do not agree with Brewcrewer on this issue, but he is of course as entitled to his view as I am to mine.] (]) 05:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


== AfD ==
We don't have to ] that Aftonbladet writer is an antisemite before adding the antisemitism template. The main criteria of template inclusion is whether antisemitism is discussed in this context. It clearly is. The templates do not decide that this was an antisemitic incident they only represent the fact that there is antisemitic discussion surrounding this incident. --'']] ]'' 06:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
: Yes, it's a very unfortunate praxis of using the category and template. As soon as someone pops out and shouts "Antisemitism!" we slap it on. // ] (]) 10:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


I'd like to put this article up for AfD. It seems to be a huge article focused on a small recent event. If and when the allegations are substantiated and the story is shown to have impact on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, we can then create an article about it. Otherwise it seems to be just a case of ]. Can I hear a few preliminary voices before sending this to AfD? ] (]) 11:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
::If by "someone" you mean reliable sources, then yes, that's the way things work around here. --'']] ]'' 16:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
::: Err... No. It's enough that a reliable source says that someone have called something antisemitic. It doesn't matter if the person making the original statement is a total nutcase as long as the source reporting it is reliable. // ] (]) 18:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


:I agree. It was a small controversy, lasted a short while, and subsided, in the absence of any substantiating evidence. ] (]) 11:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
:::: Your comment is unclear. Have reliable sources mentioned antisemitism (whether comparing, denying, questioning, etc.) within this context? If the response is in the affirmative, there's no good reason to delete to elide the antisemitism templates from this article.--'']] ]'' 05:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


: Also agree. // ] (]) 13:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
My opinion is short and clear;anti semitisn by any definition.Examine any blood libel in history and I am sure you will see clear similarities. Of course many called is a blood libel including prominant Israeli figures. Aftonbladet article =Blood libel= anti Semitism. Read farther:


: I think a nomination should wait. The investigation on Borsiin Bonniers condemnation are to be ready by mid-october and after that, parliamentary hearings are going to be held. The freedom of speech-side of the controversy is not to big either as it seems right now, but if she is forced to leave her post, I think it will be. ] (]) 14:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
::http://en.wikipedia.org/Blood_libel_against_Jews#Contemporary --] (]) 01:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


::I also think nomination at this time is premature. Its only been a month since the allegations were made. This is still a developing story. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:41, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
:::In the article there were no words saying that it was JEWISH soldiers that carried out the oragan harvesting, it said it was ISRAELI soldiers. The Israelian army is nowise a jewish army, it is the army of the nation Israel, which inhabitanta are not only Jews, but also bigger minorieties of e.g. Arabs and non-jewish immigrants. Even if there has been false accusations about blood libel in the history, you must still be allowed to write critical articles about the israeli army, about the occupation of Gaza, and so on, without beeing accused to be antisemetic. The history is no excuse to do wrongdoings today!


Also see Posner-Korosi, leader of Sweden's Jewish community in '''this article''' claiming it '''is''' anti semitism.--] (]) 01:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC) :::I hear what you are saying but shouldn't it work in reverse? We only create an article once it has proven it's notability. Maybe the article should be shelved / userfied for a few months and then if the topic has proven notable, added to the encyclopedia? ] (]) 16:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


:::::) I can see what you are saying too, but does the article actually fail ] at this time? While it could be argued that this falls under ], many subsequent developments and ongoing developments related to the story make that argument a weak one. If all ongoing developments lead nowhere, the argument for AfD might be stronger. If they lead somewhere, well then the article is halfway written and in place, ready for improvement. Of course, you are free to nominate at any time. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Isn't the problem here that are two different opinions whether the newspaper article constitutes antisemitism? One group of people think it is antisemitism, another group think it isn't? How should we decide whether to use that category or not? ] (]) 20:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::] is specific to BLPs and says that any biographies of people involved in only one event should be covered in the page on the event, which indirectly says that a single event can be notable and merit an article. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 20:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)</font></small>


::::::The kernel of the allegation, Israel's harvesting of the organs of dead Palestinians and other without permission, appears to have been substantiated per FN 7-9. So the article is relevant to how some Palestinians view Israel, etc.--] (]) 16:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
== RS ==


== ] and ] ==
Brewcrewer has twice removed external links from this article claiming they do not meet ]. The articles are by ] and ], published in ] and Middle East Online. Would others mind commenting on whether or not these meet RS? ]<sup>]</sup> 16:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


The lede included some opinions and theories promoted by some unnotable freelance journalist Jonathon Cook. Per ] and ] its being removed. --'']] ]'' 17:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:Both articles are Op-Eds, written by well known partisans, and published in outlets with a known bias. They are obviously not ] for anything other than the opinion of their authors. I don't object to their inclusion as external links, though, so long as that inclusion does not violate ]. ] (]) 17:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


:That information is not only provided by ]. It is also mentioned by other journalists. I will amass more sources, add them to the main body, and restore the text in question. It is certainly relevant and notable that accusations that the IDF has been harvesting organs from Palestinians date back more than two decades. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:31, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, they are both op-eds, but there are other op-eds cited in the external links section as well, by ] and ] (I added them as well - I tried to make sure I included a variety of views to avoid POV).
The two articles Brewcrewer is removing are these:


::Anyone mainstream or more propagandists?--'']] ]'' 02:12, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
* by Alison Weir, executive director of ], published by Middle East Online
:::Now Jonathan Cook has been proved right on this one, maybe it's time to re-visit the ] of which he was just one of a number of western reporters. ] (]) 15:51, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
* by ], published in ]


==Needs udpates==
This limits the viewpoints represented in the external links section in a way that seems rather arbitrary. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
This article should probably be updated based on some of the more recent reports, particularly the section on Aftonbladet's response. I've just added some of this to the lead, but the rest of the article seems pretty dated. That may be because this is a "tempest in a tea cup" that will tend to lose attention, but the recent claims are clearly relevant. is Aftonbladet's update, which is reported on by Haaretz . is a direct report from Haaretz on the jailing of the two Haifa men, and is a little summary with Hiss. The piece from ] is . is something in The Forward. I don't think I'll have time to update the rest of the article, but perhaps these will help anyone looking to do so. ] (]) 23:58, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
:I agree with both LoveOfTheRussianQueen and Tiamut. It's true that both articles are very partisan, but so are a few of the other links as well. Personally I'd be glad to remove all four of them, but to remove only two, regardless of which "side" we remove, is not NPOV.] (]) 17:28, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


:Given that Israel has admitted that it did have a practice of human organ harvesting from dead bodies of Palestinians and others without permission, it seems the aritcle should be now be re-written. The title should be changed to something like "Human Organ Harvesting in Israel" and the intro paragraph etc should reflect that topic. The Aftonbladet article and the controversy around it should then be just one important section of the article about human organ harvesting in Israel. Any thoughts? Any takers on getting started? --] (]) 16:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
::All of the links are partisan. There are no objective sources on this issue or any other. The only relevant considerations are ] and ]. I think including a wide variety of links helps interested readers to determine for themselves what they think of what has been said. Our job is not to proscribe information but to disseminate it. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Well, no. For external links, the relevant guideline is ]. Applicable elements of the guideline are ], specifically #1 (which these links almost certainly violate), and possibly #2. Another relevant section is ]. The majority view is that the allegations have not been supported with any credible evidence (this includes the viewpoint of the author of the article himself, who states he has no idea if the allegations are true) - so care must be taken not to include links that give the allegations credence at the same proportion of those decrying the claims as baseless. ] (]) 18:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
If the opinion piece is notable, it can be included in the main text with a short summary (and linking to the article in a Footnote using the reference system)? Also added a template concerning the external links. ] (]) 18:42, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


::I haven't looked at how much there is in new sourcing, but some work is certainly needed. The greater the amount of material on the recent acknowledgments, and the less they refer to the Aftonbladet story, the more I'd tend to agree with a complete rewrite. I am guessing it is too early to make a big change, since the story has been out there for months and we're talking about reevaluating based on one or two days of reporting. ] (]) 18:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Removal is totally justified; both are extreme partisans --] (]) 01:02, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


::: by Alison Weir from ], published in the ], gives an extensive overview of the Israeli organ harvesting network worldwide. It may prove useful in any rewriting of the article as well. Weir wrote earlier when the Aftonbladet scandal first broke and much of what she wrote then is only being reported (in part) by the mainstream media now. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:19, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
==Rm125==
This user seems to be very new to Misplaced Pages and not knowing the principles. Looking at the edit history of the user, it mostly consists of removing sourced content that the user objects in rather clear violation of ]. While it is possible that it's a troll, I suspect it's just an over-zealous user who still doesn't know the rule and doesn't understand the disctinction between not agreeing with a claim and not respecting it. As long as claims are sourced, we try to respect them and if we want them removed, we argue the case for removing them rather than just deleting them.] (]) 02:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


I'm looking through some of these reports. One aspect of the coverage I find interesting is how the different newspapers are dealing with the AP report, and the idea that ''Aftonbladet'' claimed Israel was killing Palestinians ''for'' their organs. For example, the New York Times states this to have been Aftonbladet's claim ("The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic, who released it because of a huge controversy last summer over an allegation by a Swedish newspaper that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to harvest their organs. Israel hotly denied the charge."), while Al Jazeera is more legalistic ("In August the Aftonbladet newspaper ran an article alleging that the Israeli army had stolen body organs from Palestinian men after killing them."). I heard a radio report today on NPR that was more like the New York Times. In looking at the article, Al Jazeera is clearly more accurate. From the translation :
:But Palestinians also harbor strong suspicions against Israel for seizing young men and having them serve as the country’s organ reserve – a very serious accusation, with enough question marks to motivate the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to start an investigation about possible war crimes.
It seems a stretch to call this an allegation from Aftonbladet that it happened. I see now a statement attributed to Nancy Sheppard-Hughes, the professor who released the interview with Hiss, in Aftonbladet's most recent update, which states via Google translate: "Many people who heard about the article understood it, according to Sheppard-Hughes, erroneously as Israeli army killing of Palestinians to access their . What happened on Kabirinstitutet was bad enough as it was and hit all kinds of people, not just Palestinians, she says." I am not sure anything specifically needs to be changed at the moment, but it suggests this may be something editors here need to navigate. Someone said in an edit summary that Aftonbladet specifically denied making that claim, so I am curious if that comes up as well. ] (]) 07:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


:Very interesting, Mackan, about the different ways in which media are reporting this story. There was a misleading he said/she said quality in the way the controversy was presented by US/Western media after Aftonbladet ran the story, and there is a further misleading quality in the way the Israeli acknowledgment is being presented by those media, as you point out. I am fairly certain that most people in the US who read about the controversy in the wake of the Aftonbladet article, with all the charges of anti-Israelism, "blood libel" etc., will now still have no clue that central claims of that article have been acknowledged by Israel to be true. That too is a reflection on US media.--] (]) 04:20, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
This user seems to be very new to Misplaced Pages and not knowing the principles. Looking at the edit history of the user, it mostly consists of removing sourced content that the user objects in rather clear violation of ].<< Not legitimate criticism.This is NOT a matter of new or "old"s, smart- or-stupid issue. I would suggest to you to be more careful with '''labels''' and''' personal evaluations'''>>> While it is possible that it's a troll, I suspect it's just an over-zealous user who still doesn't know the rule and doesn't understand the disctinction between not agreeing with a claim and not respecting it.<<<Once again I don't understand your '''patronising attitude''' Thanks, judge but I respectfully deny your verdict and ask the jury to comment here...>>> As long as claims are sourced, we try to respect them and if we want them removed, we argue the case for removing them rather than just deleting them.<<< All my claims are justified but if His Majesty the Judge will kindly talk to the point He might get a "pointed" answer.Please talk to the point, Your Honor>>> --] (]) 02:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


To answer my own question, I see that the culture editor of Aftonbladet addresses the point in an update . Via Google translate, which I had to touch up:
:Well, I have reported you for vandalism. I've never seen a user muster up such an amount of warning for blatant vandalism in less than a month. While you've been reasonably well-behaved here compared to your rampant vandalism of other articles, your edit-history says it all.] (]) 03:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:Perhaps we should also made more clear that the Israeli army shoot Palestinian in order to steal the , when killed for other reasons - reasons that the most moral army always feel that they have. Bostrom claims is no different and probably this is my self-criticism vain; occupying power accomplices still and in their interpretation.
This was noted in the rival paper Sydsvenskan's response:
:This seems to Aftonbladet and Donald Bostrom half when article this summer, he that Israel is stealing organs from Palestinians who then kill. In yesterday's Aftonbladet Culture Director Asa Linderborg that she "made even clearer that the Israeli army shoots Palestinian in order to steal the body," but it was precisely the Bostrom painted: organ shortage in the U.S. and Israel, organ theft in Israel, killing and cut open the Palestinians in Gaza.
I think this is a pretty accurate translation for anyone else to check if they like, and might suggest material to address the whole confusion about what Aftonbladet said and the reaction to it. ] (]) 05:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


==Reactions== ==Broader article==
A broader article including this topic was just started, which I then moved to its creator's userspace here: ]. I'm not 100% sure what's the best way to go about this, but it seemed that if others were interested in working on such an article they could do so there. I could see such an article coming to include this article as one part, probably more likely than ending up with two separate articles, but I think that may take a little time to see. This is just to let others know of its existence. ] (]) 09:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Some users seem very eager to fill the article with reactions from various people, the juicer the better. I suggest we remove comments from people who are not speaking on behalf of organisations, countries or similar. The chairman of the Jewish community in Sweden is of course very relevant, some American lawyer without a direct connection is not, neither is a rabbi without a Misplaced Pages article. It's not the lack of a Misplaced Pages article that make him not-notable, it's the lack of connection to the case. We don't need a host of people stating their opinion on the issue, especially not as Rm125, true to form, is not looking for people with ''an'' opinion but for people who have express ''THE'' right opinion.] (]) 02:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


== Israel now confirms ==
==Bias==
I'd like to remind all users that an article can be perfectly well sourced and still be 100% POV and I fear this article is heading in that direction. It is true that much criticism has been directed at Aftonbladet, not without reason, and that should of course be covered just as it already is in the article. However, at least as much criticism has been directed at Liberman, I've seen many papers in many countries, including Israel, accusing him of blowing the whole thing out of proportion for personal political gains, for not understanding how free media works in a democracy and for isolating Israel. I know that sources can be found for very harsh criticism of Aftonbladet, and a few users are very eager at seeking out an including every such source they can find. I don't mind including it as long as it's sourced, but it does make the article very one-sided and biased towards one view-point rather than presenting a more neutral and balanced view.] (]) 20:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


According to this article ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs ) Israel has now confirmed to harvested organs from dead Palestinians, without the consent of their families till 1990s. ] (]) 16:48, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
You are welcome to add such criticism .I personally don't mind
--] (]) 01:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


:Why does the item refer to claims in the original article "that Israeli soldiers were deliberatly killing Palestinians for their organs or that Israel were kidnapping Palestinians and harvesting their organs" when this is not covered in the English summary of the original article? Either the summary needs to be edited or this should be clarified to be a misleading piece of diversion by the Israeli officials ] (]) 16:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
:Of course, and I don't blame anyone for adding sources to criticize Aftonbladet. Nobody has done anything ''wrong'' here, but it's a fact that the article leans quite heavily to one side.] (]) 01:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


::The article did hint that Israel was deliberately killing Palestinians for their organs. It reported Palestinian suspicions that this was the case and commented that there is "enough question marks to motivate the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to start an investigation about possible war crimes".
I added criticism of Avigdor Lieberman as you suggested as well as Palestinian doctor and created a Palestinian section with PA reaction and also Palestinian family from the article. let me know what you think. --] (]) 03:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


::This is a key element of the controversy. If ''Aftonbladet'' had only written about possible organ harvest, the issue would have got far different proportions. Blood libel is a serious thing, and in the context of organ harvesting, one of the ugliest elements of classical antisemitism. By crossing this limit, the newspaper invited a storm of criticism. Israel's confirmation of harvesting organs from dead Palestinians without consent of the families is significant, but it should not marginalize the darker aspects of the article, ''Aftonbladet's'' recent moves to cover them up notwithstanding. --] (]) 22:35, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
:I actually agree with the POV tag, but for the opposite reasons set forth above. The lede currently does a bad job reflecting the real controversy. The lede gives the impression that the controversy is regarding the truthfullness of the claims. The real controversy is about Aftonbladet's decision to publish a hoax remnant of ancient blood libels that in historic times killed thousands of Jews, Aftonbladet's refusal to repudiate the article, and the Swedish governments refusal to denounce the publication of the article.--'']] ]'' 03:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
::By the lede you mean these two sentences "T''he Aftonbladet-Israel controversy refers to an article in Sweden's largest tabloid, implying that the Israeli Defense Force stole organs from dead Palestinians. This evolved into a diplomatic controversy between Israel and Sweden.''"? ] (]) 20:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


:::I'm not clear the questions were about whether people were being killed just for this purpose. Having followed this issue, I think this distinction about how the individuals were killed is quite new, and a result of the AP story which created the distinction. The prior controversy that I saw was over whether in fact the organs were taken, whether Bostrom should have believed the Palestinian claims, and whether Bostrom should have made the connection to the case in New Jersey. In truth I don't think anyone would have proposed the idea that maybe the organs were taken, but only after these individuals died, before the AP suddenly made that the story. That is one of the problems as well, in that there are plenty of possibilities here that could be discussed in a less loaded context. Many people seem to feel that unless there is hard proof, nothing unethical should even be proposed. It makes it hard to have a discussion. ] (]) 02:49, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
You take words out of my mouth. This is precisely was my feeling and I thought about adding a section about this point. I thought a lot why Swedes and Jews- while being sincere -can not understand each other's mentality. For a Swede it is an issue of "freedom of speech and quality of journalism" Foe a Jew-his relatives and family were slaughtered because this kind "freedom of speech" for thousands of years. So yes it is not a theoretic exercise- it is engraved deep in the soul. Jews carry all their history on their shoulders for better of for worse. It is strange for some to understand because we don't share the same experiences. So yes there is a need to answer a simple question: "What this controversy is all about"? Freedom of speech, national pride, religion, quality of journalism, I/P conflict or is it about bloody history, pogroms, thousands of years of rape, expulsions, murder, Christian anti Semitism Inquisitions, blood libels, Holocaust, subconscious deep fear, phobia and more. --] (]) 04:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


== Organ harvesting in Israel ==
: Yes, it's two issues. 1) freedom of speech and quality of journalism 2) parallels to antisemitism (or should we just use the old "they hate freedom"?). The current header is just two sentences and it actually does a good job of summarising the issue. // ] (])


Shouldn't a separate article about "Organ harvesting in Israel" be created? --] (]) 20:25, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
::Not sure what you mean since the current header makes no mention of the two issues you mention.--'']] ]'' 18:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


:I would strongly suggest working up a draft before starting it, and getting others to comment. This can be done in your userspace, as I suggested to another user two sections above. If you just start an article, the problem is that it will almost certainly be nominated for deletion, and then we will have a lot of people deciding what happens who a.) take strong views, and b.) haven't looked into the issue. If nothing else, this can waste a great deal of time. Al Jazeera reported today that the Israeli parliament is hearing testimony on the issue, so this may get bigger to where there should be an article on it. Compiling the sources would be the first step, showing that they extend beyond a recent controversy would probably be the second. ] (]) 22:10, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
If it is not possible to agree about what this controversy is about (that can perhaps depend upon your point of view), is it possible to rename this article? One idea is "Reactions to Boström article". I guess everyone can agree that this article describes different reactions to the article by Boström. Perhaps one can describe the reactions according to two sides: one side thinks the publication of the article was justified, and the other side thinks the publication wasn't justified. ] (]) 20:11, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
::Support] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 01:11, 13 February 2010 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated-->
I deleted the see also link to ] - if someone wants to make that connection I think it is appropriate to cite an opinion article in the text instead of using the "See also" section. ] (]) 22:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


==WPMED==
== Mattias Gardell, link in foreign language ==
As far as I can tell, a political controversy about a newspaper article is neither a disease nor a treatment. WPMED hereby declines to consider this article as within its scope.


If any WPMED member has a different opinion, please feel free to contact me at ]. In the meantime, ''non''-members are reminded that they cannot legitimately demand that any WikiProject support any article. WikiProject tagging is not ], and ]. Please therefore do not re-tag this article as being within the scope of this project. ] (]) 20:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
The link in not in English. We can not read it I would like to ask you to provide a translation.
BTW what is the policy in Misplaced Pages regarding foreign language references? --] (]) 08:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
: According to ] ''"sources in other languages are acceptable where an English equivalent is not available"''. The key part of the article is "Det är välbekant att israeliska talespersoner och de självutnämnda Israelvänner som agerar den militära övermaktens apologeter rutinmässigt försöker dribbla bort berättigad kritik mot israelisk kolonialpolitik genom att spela ut antisemitismkortet." and that roughly translates to "It is well known that Israeli spokespersons and the self appointed Israel friends who acts as the military superiority's apologists routinely tries to obuscate (dribble away) justified criticism against Israeli colonial politics by playing the antisemitism card.". does a quite good job, but you have to past the text yourself. // ] (]) 10:28, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


:I was not the one who tagged, requested assistance or whatever. However, the aspect of this case that I think the tagger had on its mind when he added WPMED was the feasibility of using gun-shot victims as organ donors. Or as things has unraveled, what organs can be used for research and donation in a gun-shot victim? That might not be clear as nothing in this article speaks about it. ] (]) 00:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks,Liftarn. Great news. I just realized that I just waste another 3 perfectly good European languages to "spice up" this Misplaced Pages with.--] (]) 17:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


== Misplaced Pages is lying again (and again). ==
== The article chapter ==


:Anything to help incriminate Israel and get the accusers off the hook. The Misplaced Pages article is, as usual, lying, by alleging that the Aftonbladet article never claimed that the IDF were killing Palestinians for their organs, but it was the Aftonbladet article that claimed that the Palestinians were disappearing alive, and being returned dead without their organs.
I think there are too many quotes and descriptions. I provided a English translation of the article. so now it can be shortened out.It can present the article since you can read it yourself in the link provided. Also the a palestinian family responses has been put on the separate section respecting the original structure of this article.--] (]) 19:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
:Misplaced Pages's lie is exposed by the text of the Aftonbladet article itself, which speaks volumes:
:Sounds good to me.] (]) 19:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
:"In the summer of 1992, Ehud Olmert, then minister of health, tried to address the issue of organ shortage by launching a big campaign aimed at having the Israeli public register for post mortem organ donation...While the campaign was running, young Palestinian men started to disappear from villages in the West Bank and Gaza. After five days Israeli soldiers would bring them back dead, with their bodies ripped open."
:This information is not presented as a Palestinian allegation, but as an established fact by the Aftonbladet. This refutes Misplaced Pages's repeated assertions.
:As the 'Guardian' article mentions,
:"However, there was no evidence that Israel had killed Palestinians to take their organs, as the Swedish paper reported. Aftonbladet quoted Palestinians as saying young men from the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been seized by the Israeli forces and their bodies returned to their families with missing organs."
:Misplaced Pages should not peddle in such lies, which only debase and discredit it as a reliable source of information.
:<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::That is an interesting quote you bring, which at least I had not looked at in detail. However, the real question is whether this amounts to "reporting that Israel was killing Palestinians to take their organs." Certainly it doesn't; if we are asking whether Israel was taking organs from Palestinians who had already been killed, or killing them in order to take their organs, these types of statements are provocative in either case, but do not distinguish either way. In either case, you would have Palestinians disappearing and returning in exactly the same manner. The accusation that they were murdered just for this purpose remains a separate charge. For that matter Aftonbladet, Bostrom, and Sheppard-Hughes have all denied that Aftonbladet made this claim. I think the answer is that we cannot say that the claim was or was not made, since at a minimum the issue is disputed. ] (]) 21:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
:::No, I cannot agree with this statement, at all. Let's not muddy the waters here. There is no ambiguity in the article. Aftonbladet specifically said that "young Palestinian men started to disappear from the West Bank and Gaza" and backed up this statement by quoting Palestinians as saying "young men from villages in the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been seized by the Israeli forces and their bodies returned to their families with missing organs." This is juxtaposed with another statement that the diasappearances occurred during a campaign in Israel for organ donations. These statements cannot be logically interpreted in any other way than to charge the Israelis directly with capturing live healthy young Palestinians for the purpose of taking their organs, and then returning their murdered, plundered bodies. When combined with other information in the article about Jewish and Israeli individuals being arrested abroad on suspicion of illegal organ trafficking (from live organ donors, by the way), the article becomes tantamount to a full-scale blood libel, all designed to support the central thesis as expressed in the title, that "our sons are being plundered of their organs".
:::What Aftonbladet and Bostrom said afterwards, distancing themselves from the allegations to cover their own behinds, is really irrelevant.
:::The Guardian, which is not generally known for its warm sympathies toward Israel, wrote a follow-up article which, though accusing Israel of in the past harvesting organs from already dead bodies (mostly Israeli) in the morgue, debunked the main allegations in the Aftonbladet article:
:::"However, there was no evidence that Israel had killed Palestinians to take their organs, as the Swedish paper reported. Aftonbladet quoted Palestinians as saying young men from the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been seized by the Israeli forces and their bodies returned to their families with missing organs."
:::Unfortunately, this Misplaced Pages article gives Aftonbladet exactly the diplomatic cover they need. Sadly, "freedom of speech" and "NPOV" have trumped the facts once again.
:::<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::Actually, I can be more specific, having read the Aftonbladet article once again. It specifically carries the accusation that Israel killed living Palestinians to take their organs.
::::"I then travelled around interviewing a great number of Palestinian families in the West Bank and Gaza – meeting parents who told of how their sons had been '''deprived of organs before being killed'''."
::::and then
::::"Discussions ended with Israeli soldiers loading the badly wounded Bilal in a jeep and driving him to the outskirts of the village, where a military helicopter waited. The boy was flown to a destination unknown to his family. Five days later he came back, dead and wrapped in green hospital fabric."
::::<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::::I saw discussion somewhere, I think it may have been the Freakonomics blog in the New York Times, about whether it is possible to take some of these organs after a person has died. This may even have been with kidneys, although I have no knowledge of the science, but I believe in some cases the standard method for organ transplant requires that the person's heart and/or lungs have not stopped functioning. This still would not mean that they were killed for that purpose, although of course it does raise plenty of related ethical issues. But then the question is whether those issues are different from the ones associated with the story as currently accepted. I am sure that could be debated, but having looked through this, my view remains that we can't attribute the story with this claim. I am going to remove the statement that the claim is attributed "falsely" in any case. ] (]) 01:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


Ive read the Aftonbladet article many times and it never suggests that anyone is killed BECAUSE anyone wants to take his organs. This claim was NEVER mentioned in Sweden (were the original article was easy available for everyone) until after Israel admitted to the organ thefts. And as all of us knows, there is no need for extra killings to get fresh young bodies in Palestine. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== External links ==


==Importance of israeli admissions of Organ Harvest==
If no-one objects, I plan to remove all external links (except for the video), because there is no reason to include a newspaper article describing this issue as an external link (it can better be published in a footnote to an appropriate section of the article). A big number of opinion pieces in the external links section is confusing for the readers in my opinion. What do other think about my suggestion? ] (]) 20:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I have moved the following paragraph to second in the lede, from last, in an attempt to balance the article.
<blockquote>In December 2009, Israel admitted there had been organ harvesting of skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from dead bodies of Palestinians, Israeli soldiers and citizens and foreign workers, without permission from relatives, in the 1990s, but that this practice no longer occurred.<ref name="google.com"> Google News 20th Dec 2009.</ref><ref></ref><ref></ref></blockquote> ] (])


Today Aftonbladet publisches an article about what would be an ultimate admission of guilt. They have replaced the director of the Coroners office(?), and the new director, Chen Kugel, writes to Donald Boström: "Du kan säga att du bidragit till denna förändring genom att rapportera om situationen”. "You can state that you have contributed to this change by repporting about the situation". The article is here http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article16430325.ab . I am not qualified enough to know where and what to write in the text. (the text is really a mess with repeting same things on more than one place) Maybe someone with better knowledge in english can do it? It would also be good with a engish source.


I also think this wiki-article gives to much importance to what other swedish newspapers are saying, Aftonbladet is the only major newspaper in Sweden that are left leaning, and also the only one that are pro-palestinian. All the others are sionistic (well, Svenska Dagbladet (conservative) are sionistic on the editorial, but balanced in the paper). This makes that they are taking every chance they get to attac Aftonbladet... <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 10:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
I don't exactly understand what is your suggestion. If you can give a specific example-problem-solution I will be happy to form an opinion. All the best --] (]) 21:36, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


{{Reflist-talk}}
:I mean for example the first external link "Bernie Farber: Sweden's embrace of the blood libel" should be moved to somewhere inside the main article, explained in a context and with a footnote where the link is given. ] (]) 21:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
:Now I moved this external link into the main part of the article with a footnote. Perhaps it is possible to move all external links which are notable and delete all the other? ] (]) 21:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC


==Does this Source support this statement?==
I don't mind if I understood you correctly. --] (]) 00:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can see it does not, so I have removed it from the lede, and posted it here.


Boström later said in an event in Israel that he had reconsidered his views on the article, that he had no proof other than allegations of Palestinians, and that he would have written the article differently if done again.
Removed Al Aharam link- this is a mouthpiece of the government of Egypt-dictatorship with no free press
--] (]) 00:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC) http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127720.html] (]) 01:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


==About press freedom in Sweden==
:Rm125, once again. You '''really''' need to stop removing sources based on what you think of them. You have already been blocked once for it. Freedom of speech is certainly very restricted in Egypt, but that is ''not'' a reason to disqualify everything that is published in Egypt.] (]) 00:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
It's been suggested in edits to the article that the point about press freedom is "trivial." In fact this point has been central to the Swedish response, specifically that it would violate the Swedish Constitution for government officials to criticize an article. We discuss this in the article, but it's seen for instance where the Swedish Prime Minister states, as we quote him, that "e cannot be asked by anyone to contravene the Swedish constitution, and this is something we will also not do within the European Union." Others disagreed and said that they could perhaps have criticized it to some extent, but we need to be clear that this was a discussion of the Swedish Constitution, not just an appeal to the principle of free press. ] (]) 02:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
:You seriously misunderstood my point. My actual point is supported by the source you bring, and it was this: the idea that the ''publication'' of the article was a valid manifestation of freedom of the press is trivial and not central to the article; what is important is that Sweden argued that freedom of the press prohibits the government from ''criticizing'' the article. I support including the constitution issue in the presentation of Sweden's argument. ] (]) 02:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
::OK as to your meaning. I am not sure that the distinction is so clear, however. You can see in our section on ] that the validity of the publication is part of the issue in terms of whether there is protection. Regardless, I am mainly concerned that it is clear they did not merely "cite freedom of the press," as it said earlier, which suggests that it is just a matter of abstract principles when in fact it was a constitutional issue. ] (]) 03:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


==Nature of the article's claim==
Regarding the initial article's claims, and whether it stated that Palestinians were being killed for the sake of taking their organs, this has been discussed some above. My view remains that while some have attributed this claim to the article, the fact that the author and others contend that it did not claim this means that the point is disputed, and accordingly per ] that we can present reliable sources, but we cannot ourselves take a position on the matter. I'm fairly certain I have seen the author, Aftonbladet's culture editor, and Nancy Scheper-Hughes all dispute that the article makes this claim. I don't have all of these in front of me, but the article we cite is follow up in Aftonbladet, which states: "Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon." Via Google Translate, "Many people who heard about the article understood it, according to Sheppard-Hughes, erroneously as Israeli army killing of Palestinians to access their services. What happened on Kabirinstitutet was bad enough as it was and hit all kinds of people, not just Palestinians, she says." I don't recall if I have read her statement independently, but it seems clear enough that when the author and the publication dispute the point then that alone is a reliable statement that certainly we cannot disregard. ] (]) 04:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
:I suggest that the major known stances on what the article said be presented in the second paragraph of the lead, properly attributed, and keeping ] and ] in mind, which favor reliable third party sources. In the article you're quoting, it doesn't look like Sheppard-Hughes is disputing the content of the original article at all, and is also not disputing the claim itself (that Israel killed Palestinians to take their organs); she's merely saying that Israel also took organs from non-Palestinians. In any case, Sheppard-Hughes is not a notable POV on the question of what the original article said. ] (]) 08:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


:When I dicussed the nature and the most given summurization of the article on the Swedish page, I found this to back up my claims and they might do well here also: In and they said that article claim IDF killed Palestinians for their organs. In , , , , and they said that Israel harvested organs from dead or killed Palestinians. The selection above is, however, screwed, as it selected to prove that ''everybody'' did not read the article with the same level of paranoia and that a string of ] read it in another way. ] (]) 13:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I base my opinion on sourses like this: ]
::Many of the reports that such a claim were made seem to come from one syndicated AP article.] (]) 08:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
and this:]
and this:]
It took about 30 seconds of my time. You on the other hand decided to slander and defame me without any justification. All the best. --] (]) 21:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
:That isnt how we decide whether or not a source is reliable. Here on Misplaced Pages a "reliable source" means it meets the requirements of ]. Al-Ahram meets those requirements (specifically ]). Al-Ahram is a major news source in the Arab world and you cannot just disregard whatever they write. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 21:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)</font></small>


==Changes to the lead==
==Who is relevant and who is not?==
I am concerned that recent changes to the lead have been problematic. One in particular has the third paragraph now as follows:
I would like to repeat my question, who should we include here. There are, in my opinion at least, far too many people with little or no relevance to the case. I don't think the editor of Electronic Intifada is particularly relevant to this case, and I don't think reactions of individual congressmen in the US are relevant either. Reactions from inside Sweden and Israel may be relevant, likewise persons representing organizations that are relevant. I do not think, however, that just because a person is relevant enough to have a page on Misplaced Pages, such as the congressmen, Alan Dershowitz and others, their personal opinions are of much relevance here. Please discuss.] (]) 21:01, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
:The Israeli government and several US congresspersons said the article resembled blood libels against Jews and asked the Swedish government to denounce it. Stockholm refused, citing freedom of the press, and the Swedish Newspaper Publishers' Association as well as Reporters Without Borders supported its position. Swedish ambassador to Israel Elisabet Borsiin called the article "shocking and appalling", but the Swedish government distanced itself from her remarks. The Palestinian Authority announced it would establish an inquiry commission to investigate the article's claims.
As an initial issue, I do not see how the first sentence here is appropriate. Having followed the dispute, the changes seems generally to be highlighting the very most controversial things that people have said, as if this has been the general response on the issue. Certainly there have been some comparisons to blood libels, and there was some very strong criticism of the Israeli response. Most of the sources did not respond primarily by asserting that the article was a blood libel, however, and even most sources that ''criticized'' the article did not call it a blood libel. To write this as if it was the predominant response thus does not accurately reflect the general commentary on the issue. Even as a factual matter, I do not see where several congresspersons said that it was a blood libel. I edited this to state that the Israeli government and several congresspersons "condemned" the article, which I believe is the more accurate statement. The edit was undone, so I have raised it here. ] (]) 04:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
:Also, such a heated statement throws off the rest of the paragraph. If the Swedish government agreed that the article was a blood libel, it likely would not have refused to condemn the article, since clearly that would constitute hate speech. To present the response as claiming that the article was a blood libel necessitates a direct response to this point, of which there were many, but we do not include there. I am going to change it back again, also because the text is new, and hope that there can be further discussion of continuing issues. ] (]) 06:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
::The widespread criticism of the article is a separate issue (one which does not appear at all in the lead but should). The third paragraph of the lead deals with the diplomatic ruckus that the article led to. The blood libel comparison is central to the ruckus, since the Israeli government doesn't ask the Swedish government to condemn every article they think is crappy, only this one, obviously because the perceived blood libel overtones were deemed very serious. The comparison was made by Netanyahu and other Israeli ministers who addressed the article, perhaps every minister who did so. If Sweden rejected the comparison, that can go in. ] (]) 09:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
:::If several of them said this, I don't believe it was the first thing they said, or the first thing that was said by other sources covering this. The statement from ] and ] doesn't refer to this, although it called the article "incendiary," focusing on the claim that Israel "harvested" organs. Certainly the Israeli government doesn't react this way often, but I don't think either you need to say it was considered a blood libel in order to explain the response. I am open to a clarification of why they initially condemned the article, just as long as it is clearly based in reliable sources and we can give a rounded picture ("The Israeli government and several US congresspersons condemned the article as baseless and incendiary, and asked the Swedish government to denounce it.") I think the concerns were more specific than what the article resembled, though, and I'm skeptical that this can be done effectively by starting with the comparison to a blood libel. ] (]) 09:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
::::I agree with your skepticism regarding the comparison. I'm OK with your suggested sentence, but I suggest working in somehow that the concern over the article's incendiary nature was stated to stem partly from the history of antisemitism and blood libels, as this was a central element of that concern. ] (]) 10:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
:::::Is is really noteworthy what a couple of Congressmen said? I don't believe governments normally consider them very important, since there are so many of them that some are bound to have oppinions. I believe 97% made no comment on this matter.] (]) 08:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


==Did the article say that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs?==
I agree with Electronic Intifada thing because it is not RS, however this opinion is legitimate in my view. If you want to remove-there no protest from me. Members of Congress are important for following reasons:(a) US is a major authority on issues related to freedom of speech in the world (b) The article connected American citizens to this story, claiming that they some how connected.(c) Look what commities they belong to-the name says it all (d)This is a mojor international story- not limited to Sweden and Israel.(e) I am not sure if some members of parlament of South America or Africa are that important. When America talks-the world listens.And this is the difference. Google it out and you see the amount of articles in all major and minor publications. All the best --] (]) 21:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
:I don't think we should treat American reactions (in general) as more important than say South American. The fact that the article talks about American citizens is a good argument why american reactions matter a bit more for this case, though. ] (]) 21:35, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Associated Press, United Press International, CNN, ABC News, BBC News, ''The Guardian'' and others say it did. If there is a significant minority of reliable secondary saying it didn't, we can say the matter is disputed. In the meantime, not a single one has been presented. ] (]) 22:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
::I do not wish to offend anyone, but the claim that the US is a "major authority" on freedom of speech would cause a laughter in many countries. Of course it's better than many countries, but according to the latest Worldwide Press Freedom Index, the US shares place 36-41, so there are at least 35 countries where members of parliament would be better suited to comment if we went by your "reason (a)". As for reason b, it is more valid but the link was very weak and the congressmen doesn't seem to even acknowledge it. "Reason c" is the same claim as "reason a", that the US somehow is better placed than other countries to comment on world affairs. That is not the case, certainly not in stories in which the US isn't involved. "Reason d" is the same one once again, and so is "reason e". So in short, you have given two reasons. One is that Bodström made a completely unfounded claim in which an American citizen was involved. All your other claims are focused on the reasoning that the US would have a higher authority than any other country in the world. That is perhaps your personal opinion, but there's nothing to support it. Once again, the US is behind many other countries in rankings of Freedom of Press and certainly doesn't hold any special authority.] (]) 21:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


:The matter is disputed, at the very least by Bodström and Aftonbladet. ] (]) 23:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
American importance influence and "weight" for better or for worse is a fact.This is what I meant. Of course this or that issue is a matter of interpretetion.The author of the article connected certain American Jews cought in organ trafficing to the IDF conduct. This is the connection to America. Plus, look- if some African parlament would issue a letter on the subject I would be glad to unclude it here- no discrinination. Generally, Jeppiz I think the more information the better provided it is relevant and educating. I don't nassesarily think that being short for shortness sake-there is a value there. People want to be educated so why be stingy? In a book the amount of space is limited so this is the reason there is limitation there. In wikipedia case we are not limited and it is good. All the best. --] (]) 22:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


::They are not secondary reliable sources on this matter. Not only that, but no source has been presented even showing that ''they'' dispute this. I read Bostrom's Navier interview, and he does not dispute it. Bring sources, and we'll talk, but right now you're just edit-warring in your original research. ] (]) 23:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
:Yes, these are good points, much better than the earlier. However, most of the people here have been speaking as individuals. Let me take some examples. Some Palestinian doctor called Mazen Arafah is included. Who is Mazen Arafah and why is his personal opinion notable? I think any doctor could have said that. Same thing with Alan Dershowitz. I have the highest respect for his brilliant intellect and he is of course a notable person, but his personal opinion is of no interest. Same thing with Matthew Cassel, he is not notable himself and neither is his personal opinion on this issue. Abraham Foxman is a different story, he was clearly speaking on the ADL's behalf. I think the paragraph can be shortened, as the only relevant information is the complaint, but that could well be considered relevant so I wouldn't remove it, just shorten it. Same thing with Dror Feiler, he is also a spokesperson who made a statement, and that paragraph is already quite short. I would definitely remove Bernie Farber, there is no connection at all to Canada in this case.
:As for the congressmen, the question is whether the letter they have sent have been sent by them personally (not notable) or whether they sent them as statement of their committees. In the latter case, I could see a case for notability, just as I do with ADL.
:In short, yes, we can definitely have other reactions, but reactions from individuals who give their personal opinions and are not connecter are hardly relevant.] (]) 22:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


:::I don't follow. What do you mean by "they"? And what do you mean by "he does not dispute it"? ] (])
Look at the link I provided --] (]) 22:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


::::You hadn't presented a source showing that Bostrom or Aftonbladet denied that the original article claimed that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. In the Navier interview, which you cited, Bostrom does not make that denial. But never mind, I found a source myself where Bostrom does make that denial, and changed the lead to include his position. ] (]) 23:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Palestinian doctor is important because he is the only doctor fro Palestinian side of the issue
It is not a "private" opinion.This is an opinion of an expert- MD and is based on his expertize as a doctor. --] (]) 22:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


:::::Boström say he never wrote that, and that it is not in the article. Is that not a denial? Nevertheless and one other thing. You took away what I wrote about "Israeli discource": have you noticed that the AP, UPI, CNN, ABC articles you have used are written by correspondents in Jerusalem (or the "Middle East")? (BBC don't tell where, but Mark Weiss of Irish Times is based in Jerusalem if one believes Google.) It would be more credible if you found a article by a Stockholm correspondent saying the same thing as they do in Israel. ] (]) 00:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
:It certainly is a private opinion, even if it comes from an MD. Being a doctor is very far from enough for being notable and he has no connection to the case. Once again, who of these people I mentioned have been publishing their opinions as the official opinions of an organization or committee. The ADL is a clear case, that should definitely stay in. Same thing with Dror Feiler. As for all the rest that I mentioned, please provide links that establishes that their statements were on behalf of their organizations/committees. If that is the case, they should stay. If not, they should be taken out. As for Matthew Cassel, Bernie Farber and Masen Arafah, neither of them belong here by any stretch of imagination. Two of them are neither notable nor related to the topic, the third is notable but with no connection to the controversy.] (]) 22:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Like I said, Bostrom indeed made the denial, but only in the source I brought, not in the source you brought. Your idea regarding "Israeli discourse", and the attempt to support it with an analysis of where various reporters are based, are pure original research, and also happen not to be convincing. ] (]) 00:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


:::::::It is not original research to attribute the articles to it authors or to say where the correspondent resides. That would infact be quite appropriate. ] (]) 01:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
::Ok, I removed the personal opinions of people who are not involved in the case, most of whom are not even notable. I didn't remove the congressmen yet, but if no link can be provided that they spoke on behalf of their committees, their statements are also just personal opinions that aren't really relevant here as they are not involved in any way.] (]) 22:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Several of the sources say that the article made this claim, in most cases by using the AP story. Al Jazeera uses the same story, but without that specific claim. So, I think there is evidence of a difference in the reporting on this point. We could explain the difference, although it would mostly be original research. I don't think there is any significant discussion of the point in reliable sources, besides the newspaper's and Scheper-Hughes' denial that it made the claim. One Swedish source said that despite the denial this was just the "evidence chain" that Bostrom painted up, which I believe I quoted above. Otherwise it's just a point for us to be aware of in reporting, I think. We could note that following the December story, several news outlets reported that Aftonbladet had initially claimed that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to take their organs, although Bostrom, Aftonbladet, and Scheper-Hughes denied that the article made this claim. ] (]) 04:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
::I take it we do not have a link to the original article? ] (]) 04:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
:::It's linked in the article, although it's in Swedish. A translation is . I believe a fair summary is that the article does not make the claim, but some here say that the article implies that they were killed for that purpose, and some newspapers have glossed the point with language stating that it did (I have only seen one Swedish source that focuses on the point, though others have been more specific in stating that the article implied it). Besides that is the fact (as far as I am aware) that this point was only raised after the December revelations with Dr. Hiss, but I think that is also necessary context, since the point basically has to do with whether those revelations showed the article to be correct. ] (]) 04:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
:Actually, the first sentence contains a dangling modifier. ] (]) 04:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
:Also, it is is titled a '''controversy''', but the other side of this controversy isn't heard of til para 3 ''"The Israeli government and several US congresspersons condemned the article as baseless and incendiary, while noting the history of antisemitism and blood libels against Jews, and asked the Swedish government to denounce it."'' Since it is the disputation that makes this the ''Aftonbladet Israel "controversy," '' the Israeli side's view should be in the first paragraph along with the original story. The article is not a story about killing and plundering, it is an article about a "controversy" over a story about killing and plundering. Israel's ''side'' of it should be right up front. I hope I am making myself clear here. I really think an AfD is warranted here. If any further ''evidence'' comes up it could be revived. ] (]) 04:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
::I believe the order is so that a reader gets some idea what was stated before they read that it was condemned. We briefly explain what the article is about, and then explain the response. If we put the response first I think the reader may be a bit confused. I may not be sure exactly what you would propose, though, if you would like to suggest something specific. As far as deletion, there has been quite a bit of coverage, so for that reason I think it's unlikely. Reading your comment again, though, I don't believe it is just the response that is the controversy; the controversy does include the events at the Abu Kabir Forsensic Institute. ] (]) 04:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


Incidentally, if editors wish to highlight the most controversial aspects of the article in order to explain the Israeli response, they should keep in mind that Aftonbladet also claimed vindication with the later stories. In that regard, I think it would be hard to deny that the article is primarily focused on the fact that Palestinians disappeared and they were returned without their organs. It isn't for us to gloss the basic claims and focus only on those points where the sentiment remains that the article went too far. If the article went too far, that's just one part of the story. ] (]) 04:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Look about this Palestinian doctor issue. Personally I agree with you that it is his personal opinion and as such it is not very important. Notice! 100% agree. However, I read somewhere on Misplaced Pages that in some cases when there ios no other opinion and to create some balance it is OK to include it to create some perspective. May be I am mistaken here, but this is how I ubderstood it.If there are different opinions from Palestinian side it should be considered for balance. Unfortunately so far there is nothing I can find.This is THE ONLY my consideration. If we remove this link people will say that Palestinians don't have a take here and therir side is not presented. If you find this consideration non valid then by all means remove it and I hope we can find another from palestinian side. All the best --] (]) 00:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:I deleted the reference to the Palestinian doctor - we still have the reference to the Palestinian authority and also to Arafat? ] (]) 21:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC) ::Thanks for your response. I will think on it further. ] (]) 05:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I just removed the statement that the article did make this claim that Israel had been killing Palestinians for the purpose of stealing their organs, which I hadn't seen was added. The fact is that even Sydsvkenskan, the rival Swedish paper that sharply criticized the article, does not say that the article made this claim, but rather argues that the article implied it. My Swedish is well out of practice, but I believe the translation I provided above via Google Translate is accurate:
:This seems to Aftonbladet and Donald Bostrom half when article this summer, he that Israel is stealing organs from Palestinians who then kill. In yesterday's Aftonbladet Culture Director Asa Linderborg that she "made even clearer that the Israeli army shoots Palestinian in order to steal the body," but it was precisely the Bostrom painted: organ shortage in the U.S. and Israel, organ theft in Israel, killing and cut open the Palestinians in Gaza.
See Google's version (the fact that "Hiss," as in Dr. Yehuda Hiss, in Swedish means "elevator" may be especially confusing). The point is that, other than Bostrom, Aftonbladet, and Scheper-Hughes, all of whom deny that the article made the claim, this is the only source I'm aware of that actually looks at the issue. The others (all based on one AP story, as far as I am aware) summarize the story in a way that attributes this claim to the story, but only in passing and without any discussion. This does give us material to discuss the issue, I think, but certainly not to state categorically that the article made the claim despite Bostrom's denial. ] (]) 06:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
:I brought nine high-quality, independent, reliable sources clearly stating that the Bostrom article claimed Israel killed Palestinians for their organs: AP, UPI, BBC, CNN, ABC, The Guardian, The Irish Times, Haaretz and The Jerusalem Post. I see you brought a tenth, the New York Times, above. Your perception that they are all based on one AP story and/or all date from after the Hiss interview revelation is incorrect: the UPI, BBC,CNN and Irish Times sources were published in the weeks following the original article, and way before the Hiss interview. I'm not sure I see how the perception would be relevant even if it were correct, but in any case, it isn't.
:On the other hand, not one independent reliable source has been presented saying that the Bostrom article did ''not'' claim Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. Bostrom, Linderborg and Sheper-Hughes are obviously not independent reliable sources on this matter, either according to the rules or according to common sense. Furthermore, I don't see that Linderborg or Sheper-Hughes denied that Bostrom's article made the claim; it seems rather that that Linderborg believes it was ambiguous and Sheper-Hughes is referring to a different matter, namely, whether Bostrom's article claimed that the phenomenon was limited to Palestinians. The Sydsvkenskan writer seems to be saying that for all practical purposes Bostrom's article ''did'' make the claim, and he ''disputes'' the notion that the Hiss interview substantiated Bostrom's article in any way (which is the notion that makes the Hiss interview, and the question we're discussing, relevant to the controversy to begin with). This position is very similar to that of the ten reliable sources noted above. In any case, he certainly does not say that Bostrom did not make the claim, and so he cannot be used as a source to show that the position of the ten reliable sources is disputed.
:Bottom line, unless and until it is shown that a significant minority of independent reliable sources say that Bostrom's article did not make the claim, we have no choice but to say that it did. Bostrom's (and possibly Linderborg's and Sheper-Hughes') denial of this can be noted. I'm changing the lead back to reflect this. ] (]) 23:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


::The author in Sydsvenskan interpreted it in the way AP et al did. However, he is open with that it is a interpretation of the article. Unlike the sources you bring up. ] (]) 00:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi all! I have now made some '''major''' changes where I deleted sentences which describe the opinion of ''persons not representing organizations''. I do not think these opinions are relevant enough for this Misplaced Pages article. In addition, this will keep the article shorter, and also help us avoid undue weight to some perspective. If someone disagrees, you can just put the old version back - I am open to discussion. I tried to be bold making these edits, so I don't mind if you disagree. ] (]) 21:02, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:Correction to my previous post: I just looked at they ynet article again, and ''even Bostrom'' does not dispute that his article said Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. He says "he did not mean to imply" that. This is a comment on his intent, not on the content of the article as it appeared. This means that at present, ''nobody'' (outside of Misplaced Pages, of course) has been shown to dispute this. Now I wouldn't be surprised to find sources showing that Bostrom or Linderborg did dispute this on other occasions, but until such sources are presented, we can't say that they did. I changed the lead again to accurately reflect what Bostrom said in the ynet article. ] (]) 00:19, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
::Jalapenos, I think that's clearly an incorrect understanding of NPOV. You had it stating "That claim was made in the original article,<ref name="abcnews.go.com"> By Simon McGregor-Wood, ABC News, December 21, 2009. </ref><ref name=ghiss/><ref name=apk/><ref name=upik/><ref name=bbck/><ref name=cnnk/><ref name=itk/><ref name=hk/><ref name=jpk/> though Boström later said that he never meant to imply as much.<ref name=gur/>" This is to say that Bostrom makes a claim, but it is false. You cannot make this kind of a statement under NPOV, or ] for that matter. We report differing views on matters that are disputed; we do not decide that one is correct because the other somehow does not qualify as relevant in our view (even though we then immediately present it). It's an extremely clear violation of ]. ] (]) 00:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


::{{edit conflict}} I could give you a bucket loads of blogs and other non-RS that openly disputes that the article said that. You really have to have a certain degree of paranoia to read that out of the article, or to be a genuine antisemite. I don´t deny that it is possible to misunderstand, as you points out Boström does not deny that either. But it is not explicit in the article, in that case you would be able to provide a qoute from the original article, right? So it should not stand "was in the original article", because it is not. It was read in to the original article, but that is a slightly different thing. ] (]) 00:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
:I don't know about your edit, I let others decide in that matter. But there is one thing: There are more people then the Palestinian doctor who have stated that it is medically improbable that Bilal was taken for organ harvesting. However, non of the doctors who states that opinion does represent anything other then themselves as professionals. But, this subject is somewhat different, so I think that it would be nice if the medical improbability argument where to be discussed in its own section. ] (]) 22:04, 5 September 2009 (UTC) PS. You forgot Mårten Schultz in your bold attempt, he is not representing any organization either.


::Also your interpretation of the attribution to Scheper-Hughes is unfounded; she says that many interpreted it "erroneously as the Israeli army killing Palestinians to access their organs" ("Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon.") Lindborg is also clear: "Kanske borde vi även gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ, de tar organ när de dödat av andra skäl – skäl som världens mest moraliska armé alltid anser sig ha." Specifically, "Perhaps we should have made even clearer that the Israeli army does not shoot Palestinians with the intention of stealing organs, they take the organs when they are killed for other reasons -- reasons that the world's most ethical army always sees itself to have." She then says it wouldn't matter how clear they had been. We could request a third party translation if you like, but I think the statements are quite clear in context. ] (]) 00:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to reinsert Mattias Gardell as it is well within his field of research. // ] (]) 23:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::@Mackan1: the point you raise is moot, since, properly understood, there is no contradiction between what Bostrom says and what the ten reliable sources say. Bostrom says he did not mean to imply x; The 10 say the article says x. Incidentally, I disagree with your interpretation of WP:NPOV. The policy requires us to give primacy to the main POV. Ideally, we would say "AP, UPI etc. say x; Bostrom says y". That is in fact what I did in the body of the article. But in the lead brevity is required, so we should give primacy without spelling out the whole list, but if you really want to spell it out, I could live with that. I'm also surprised that you didn't object to Steinberger's previous version, which had a classic false parity by saying something like "it was reported that x, but Bostrom explained that y".
:Okay, I understand - he's an expert on "religious racism". This problem of deciding who's comments/arguments/opinions to include is getting harder and harder unfortuantely. ] (]) 12:28, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
:::@Steinberger: I think you're wrong in how you interpret the Bostrom article, but it doesn't matter what either of us think; it matters what the secondary sources think. You're entitled to the opinion that AP, UPI, CNN, BBC etc. are either paranoid or genuinely antisemitic, but according to ] it doesn't matter in the slightest if they are.
:::@Mackan2: if you're going to press this point, then I would like a third party translation. Your quote from the Sheper-Hughes interview is a statement in the voice of the article leading in to a quote by SH in which she disputes a different issue. Either SH does not coherently state a position on the issue we're discussing, or the article mis-states her position. Linderborg is most certainly not saying that the article did not make the claim. What she is saying is that the claim is false. (In my opinion her statement is actually an admission that the article ''did'' make the claim, but I'm assuming you will not agree with me, so I won't press the matter.) Needless to say, I'm all for presenting everybody's position in the body of the text, at whatever level of detail needed to ensure there is no reasonable dispute as to the accuracy of the presentation. But this will probably not be possible in the lead, unless we do it with short quotes, as I did with Bostrom. ] (]) 01:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


::::Your sources can only be used to verify that it have been summarized that way. Not that "it is" in the article. For that it breeches NPOV as Boström disputes it. ] (]) 01:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
== Several different "reactions" sections ==
:::::Nope, they should be used to verify what they say, which is that Bostrom's article claimed Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. And Bostrom doesn't dispute it -- you're continuing to misrepresent his remarks. He merely states that he did not intend to make that claim. ] (]) 01:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


:::::No, its you who misrepresents his remarks. He say he never maid that claim, that it is a lie that he did so. ] (]) 01:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
As it looks right now we have some different "reaction" headings.I think we need to clarify this issue because others will add more headings like separate "IDF reaction"for example.The way it looks right now- we have separation to media and government and "other reactions" Now I see an edditional heading with 'edditional Swedish reaction" I think we need to establish a certain structure and stick to it. Ideas? --] (]) 21:50, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
:Perhaps main heading "Swedish reaction, Israeli reaction, Palestinian reaction, European reaction, American reaction"? If needed we use subsections for each region/country? ] (]) 21:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
::Mhm, and once again, why would we need European reactions (the majority of which are from other Nordic countries and which have been focusing on Liberman's lack of respect for democracy) and American reactions (the majority of which are from American Jews and have been focusing on Aftonbladet's lack of respect for Jewish sufferings). Do not get me wrong, I agree with those reactions. Aftonbladet published an increadibly stupid story and Liberman reacted to in in an increadibly stupid way. All that is already found in the Swedish and Israeli reactions, so why do we need a lot more reactions. Especially from private individuals in countries that aren't even involved?] (]) 22:01, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


::::::This is a new source. I hate to be a nitpicker, but in this source he also does not deny that his article claimed Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. He says it's a lie to state that he wrote that soldiers ''hunt for'' youths to take their organs. Killing someone, whom you've captured, for their organs, is different than capturing them with the original purpose of taking their organs. I don't believe I've seen any source saying that he wrote the second thing. ] (]) 02:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I think one of the inportant point for inclusion is if a person represent an organization of some kind of weight and/or writes articles and opinon pieces in major newspapers. If a person is a politician especially not a local one and has a connection to this is one of consideration.Regarding too many divisions( european,sweedish, israeli, american etc) I think the reasonable thing to leave 3 sections for responses since it involves their citizens ( Israel and Jews, Sweden and the author, Palestinia Authority and the family and US) and "other" section for responces of Arabs, Muslims, Europeans and others)


:::::::Are you seriously suggesting that he didn't refer to the summarization we talk about now? That he instead reefers to a misinterpretation of ''that'' summary? I think that is very far fetched. I find it obvious that he do refer to the "killed to harvest" claim. That he meant it that way is also implied by the follow-up questions from Levy. ] (]) 02:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
How does it look? --] (]) 22:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


::::::::I seriously don't think he was referring specifically to any group of newspaper articles reporting on his article, but to the controversy in general. I also think that, as people often do in these situations, he was choosing the most extreme available position, whether real or ], to attack. ] (]) 02:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
:See my response above. Most of the people here have been speaking as individuals. A Palestinian doctor called Mazen Arafah is included. Who is Mazen Arafah and why is his personal opinion notable? I think any doctor could have said that. Same thing with Alan Dershowitz. I have the highest respect for his brilliant intellect and he is of course a notable person, but his personal opinion is of no interest. Same thing with Matthew Cassel, he is not notable himself and neither is his personal opinion on this issue. Abraham Foxman is a different story, he was clearly speaking on the ADL's behalf. I think the paragraph can be shortened, as the only relevant information is the complaint, but that could well be considered relevant so I wouldn't remove it, just shorten it. Same thing with Dror Feiler, he is also a spokesperson who made a statement, and that paragraph is already quite short. I would definitely remove Bernie Farber, there is no connection at all to Canada in this case.
:As for the congressmen, the question is whether the letter they have sent have been sent by them personally (not notable) or whether they sent them as statement of their committees. In the latter case, I could see a case for notability, just as I do with ADL.
:In short, yes, we can definitely have other reactions, but reactions from individuals who give their personal opinions and are not connecter are hardly relevant.] (]) 22:36, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


:::::::::I also believe that he is elaborating some. But I also think it is clear that he refers to the general "killed to harvest" claim and not the controversy in general. ] (]) 03:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Look at the link-it is official --] (]) 22:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::I haven't read the various responses mentioned here but if they are as Jalapenos has said (ie 'hunt for' and 'did not mean to imply') then we must take them at their word. All we have is the language they use, not to put to fine a point on it. Not our own interpretations but the words they say, no more, no less. ] (]) 05:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


I propose to move a chepter: other Swedish opinios to "other opinions. Otherwise we need to create " other Israeli opinions" and other Palestinian opinions here. --] (]) 22:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::That is correct, but in this case Jalapenos do omit the context. ] (]) 06:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
The Haaretz article attributes to Bostrom: "Like for example that they say I wrote that the soldiers hunted for youths so as to take their organs. It's obvious that's a lie." That seems quite clearly a denial that he made the claim we are discussing here. ] (]) 07:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


:You seem to have missed some of the comments above. He's denying that the article claimed soldiers ''hunted for'' Palestinians to take their organs. Indeed, I haven't seen anyone claim that the article said that. This is different from the question of whether soldiers killed Palestinians for their organs (whom they may have captured for other reasons in the course of their duty). ] (]) 09:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I an trying to create some kind of situation when all different opinions arer presented in a balanced way.--] (]) 23:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


::He elaborated some, but that does not obscure what he mean when it is put in context. However, from what you writes above you seem to have missed that from the 18th of August summarized the article as "Israeli soldiers are abducting Palestinians ''in order'' to steal their organs" (my italics). That excludes your "other reasons in the course of their duty". Similarly in the Jerusalem Post , where they use other words such as "that the IDF murders young Palestinian Arabs ''to enable'' the harvesting of their organs for transplanting." (my italics) Also in that example, it is indirectly said that Boström answers the question why they where killed in the article. But he does not. If you read carefully, he does not come close. The "organ shortage" is given in the original article as a reason for his own investigations in 1992 - it is not given as a reason for the Israeli practice, for example. ] (]) 10:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
==Comments please==
It seems Rm125 and I don't agree on whom to include here. Both of us have made our cases, so rather than resorting to an edit war, I'd ask other users to comment. In my opinion, personal opinions of individual persons outside Sweden and Israel are not very relevant. At present, we have a reported statement by a completely unknown Palestinian doctor who has not studied the deceased person and isn't involved in any way. We also have the personal opinions of an American intellectual. He is at least a notable person, but he is not involved in this controversy in any way and has just presented his personal view. In my view, neither of these reactions, nor reactions from other individuals just expressing their personal opinion, belong in the article. I know what Rm125 thinks, but I welcome input from others!] (]) 23:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


You seem all to have missed the crucial point: the article did not claim that anyone was killed for the purpose of harvesting organs, because the article does not claim that any organs were harvested at all. It claimed merely that there are indications that this had happened, and that the matter should be investigated. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Al Aharam is not RS ==


He writes mainly for Iranians Egyptian Al Aharam and Al Jeezira. He is a propaganda writer and falsifies facts. This type of writer is considered non RS on Misplaced Pages. No major newspaper would publish him. Jeepiz, frankly I am puzzled why this sourse is important to you. This is not even news, just opinion in a mauthpiece of dictatorial regime of Egypt. As you know Egypt doesn't have freedom of press. I assume that you live in a free country and this is clear to you. All the best
--] (]) 00:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


{{Reflist-talk}}
Look at the quote of his in Al Aharam:
"During an interview with Al-Jazeera in 2002, late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat accused Israel of murdering Palestinian children and harvesting their organs for transplant operations. "They murder our kids and use their organs as spare parts. Why is the whole world silent? Israel takes advantage of this silence to escalate its oppression and terror against our people," said an angry Arafat"


==Second paragraph in lead==
In Arab "newspapers" they spread the same blood libels we are discussing here. In those contries with oppressive and restrictive press they manipulate our freedoms and USE us to spread their evil conspiracy theories. Please reconsider your revert. All the best --] (]) 00:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Mackan deleted part of this paragraph with the comment "This is not the place for us to pick out what we think is the most controversial thing in the article, even if this were accurate". Since this (Misplaced Pages) article is not about the Aftonbladet article but about the controversy surrounding the Aftonbladet article, of course we should point out the most controversial parts of it. Why else would we even have the second paragraph be about the article, if not to clarify what the controversy was about? As for the accuracy issue, but this is the removed sentence:<blockquote>
It also featured allegations that Israel deprived living Palestinians of their organs before killing them.
</blockquote>
and this is the quote from the article on which I based the sentence: <blockquote>
I then travelled around interviewing a great number of Palestininan families in the West Bank and Gaza – meeting parents who told of how their sons had been deprived of organs before being killed.
</blockquote>
What's the problem? ] (]) 01:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


: His article at ] says nothing about him being an extremist. Do you have any sources to back up that claim? // ] (]) 08:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC) :He say a lot in the article and it is wrong to highlight some arbitrary statement. If you find it very important, there is a whole section where the article is to be summarized. It is nothing for the lead. ] (]) 01:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


::If you have any suggestions as to what to put in the second paragraph instead of that sentence, or if you believe that it shouldn't exist, then say so. But it's very odd to keep that paragraph very short, as if we were trying to hide something. ] (]) 02:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
::Rm125, please read ]. You are making a series of unfounded accusations against Amayreh and you should stop, unless you have evidence from ] to support what you are saying. ]<sup>]</sup> 09:21, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


:::Agree. That is what the article said. The IDF shoots first, takes the organs, and ''then'' kills young Palestinian boys. Then they stitch them back up in the preposterous form that we saw in the photograph, wrap them in something, and deliver these boys back home in the middle of the night. The soldiers stick around, laughing and joking while the boy's relatives are made to dig the graves, and bury the child. This is journalism? ] is more like it. ] (]) 05:15, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Strike extremist, This is my private opinion. The reason I object is (1) Al Aharam is not a free newspaper- it is a mouthpiece of Egyptian regime (2) No western major newspaper publishes his "articles" (3) The quote in the Alharam that I provided constitutes a blood libel by definition-even worse that the swedish newspaper.(4) RS As mentioned there is no free press in Egypt= no such thing.--] (]) 11:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
::::You are focusing on one sentence in the article, but not accurately representing it. The article says in one sentence that the Palestinians claimed organs were taken and then the men killed. The rest of the article is clearly focused solely on the fact that Palestinians were disappearing and then being returned with bizarre wounds on their bodies. One can understand why it would be claimed now that the article went too far, but it is not the only position. As Scheper-Hughes says, there is a serious ethical issue here regardless of how the Palestinians died. So why is it assumed that, clearly, Aftonbladet wanted to make it into something much worse than what actually happened, when what happened is itself a headline? That one sentence may have suggested something which some believe was inappropriate to suggest does not make the whole article about that sentence. I will admit to wondering if it is thought that Bostrom should have ignored what the Palestinians were claiming, or sanitized their claims, even now that the basis for the story is reasonably known. I don't think one can paint all of this in such stark colors. ] (]) 07:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
:::::The story seems to have been right in essence - but the authorities contested the most contraversial point they could find, before quietly admitting that they had, indeed, killed Palestinians but stolen their organs because they were dead - rather than killing them expressly for that purpose. Will try and find reliable sources for this.] (]) 03:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
:::::No I am not focusing or misrepresenting one sentence. There are a number of sentences that are highly troublesome here.


''While the campaign was running, young Palestinian men started to disappear from villages in the West Bank and Gaza. '''After five days Israeli soldiers would bring them back dead, with their bodies ripped open.''''' --{Here is one accusation}
:Thank you for acknowledging that there are no sources calling Amayreh as an extremist, and for striking your comments to that effect. 1) Do you have reliable sources saying that Al Ahram is a mouthpiece of the Egyptian regime? 2) I don't care if western people have never heard of them; this is the world's encyclopedia, not the West's. 3) That's your opinion, unsourced. 4) It doesn't matter what the state of press freedoms in Egypt is, for Misplaced Pages purposes, ] is a reliable source. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
</p>
''The person they were '''assigned to put out of action''' was Bilal Achmed Ghanan, one of the '''stone-throwing Palestinian youngsters''' who made life difficult for the Israeli soldiers.''-- {They are just ''"youngsters"'' who merely throw stones, and soldiers are ''assigned'' to kill them}


</p>
Tiamit, I must give you a compliment. I don't agree with you but you have a good point. I will try to scratch my head a little. I might come out with something for you --] (]) 12:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
''Together with other stone-throwing '''boys''' he hid in the Nablus mountains, with '''no roof over his head'''. Getting caught meant torture and death for these boys – they had to stay in the mountains at all costs.''-- {just a youngster, a boy with ''no roof'' no home, to be killed by Israeli soldiers <s>(like the dogs they are)</s> (that is the implication)}
</p>
''On May 13 Bilal made an exception, when for some reason, he walked unprotected past the carpentry workshop. Not even Talal, his older brother, knows why he took this risk. Maybe '''the boys were out of food''' and needed to restock''. --{the ''boys'' were ''hungry'', and had no home, just because they threw stones at the Israelis}
</p>


''Everything went '''according to plan''' for the Israeli special force. The soldiers '''stubbed their cigarettes''', put away their '''cans of Coca-Cola''', and calmly '''aimed''' through the broken window. When Bilal was close enough they needed only to pull the triggers. The first '''shot hit him in the chest'''. According to villagers who witnessed the incident he was subsequently '''shot with one bullet in each leg'''. Two soldiers then ran down from the carpentry workshop and '''shot Bilal once in the stomach.''''' {The killing ''plan'' went well for the Israelis. ''They'' were not out of food or without a roof or home. ''They'' had cans of ''Coke'' and plenty of cigarettes. The Israelis shot the boy in cold blood, in the chest and in the stomach, as well as the legs. It is not clear why they would shoot in such vital organs if they were planning to use the organs but that's another question for another time}
Tiamit, can you back up your (4) point for me, please ?--] (]) 12:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
</p>
''Together with the sharp noises from the shovels we could hear '''laughter from the soldiers''' who, as they waited to go home, '''exchanged some jokes'''. As Bilal was put in the grave his chest was uncovered. Suddenly it became clear to the few people present just what kind of abuse the boy had been exposed to. Bilal was '''not by far the first''' young Palestinian to be buried with a slit from his abdomen up to his chin.'' {The soldiers ''laugh'' and ''joke'' as the villagers bury the dead youngster. For them it is nothing. This is "far from the first." There are many questions that are unanswered here, not the least of which is why the military would return these boys at all. No sources are given in this article or for the accusations made in this story. Inferences are drawn and stories are told. I think to call this pulp fiction is to do a kindness to the story.} What is wrong with this analysis? That is how I read it. ] (]) 06:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
:The problem with your 'analysis' is that it is totaly POV. Many bodies have not been returned. The Israeli Gov't has confirmed that organs were stolen, and bodies returned as described above. If you read the wikipedia article, and the cited sources you would be less ill-informed. Palestinians are human beings. Journalistic expression is not always neutral. You are obviously blinded by your bias.] (]) 08:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


:The problem with Stellarkid story is that he does not keep the different stories and rumors Boström tells of apart (he combines at least two for his "analysis"). One have to be very stringent in keeping unrelated things apart. As an example (Stellarkid is innocent of) I have read that Boström "linked" Operation Big Rig to IDF and Palestinans. His mentioning of Operation Big Rig is really used as a background, to support his notion that investigations must be launched. Such types of distortions is really a breach of ]. ] (]) 14:37, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks Rm125 for your thoughtfulness. I am basing my comments re: Al-Ahram consituting a reliable source for Misplaced Pages articles on . To be safe, you will notice that I directly attributed the material presented to ] (this is because even though I think its a news piece, others may view it as a opinion piece). If you have any questions about whether a source is reliable or not, there is a reliable sources noticeboard linked at the top of the page I linked you to where you can ask and other editors will offer their opinions. I hope I answered your question. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:10, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
::How do I not keep the different stories apart? This is the story of Bilal, the one that Boström claims to have been around for. This is one story here. And I agree that he mentions other "stories" (hearsay as well as unrelated, unverified and unanalyzed stories) to push his inference that the Israelis are killing in order to steal organs. To listen to this story, it is clear the author would have us believe the soldiers are evil people that would make even the Nazis look good. That is why this story is rubbish and clearly not journalism and why so many condemned it! The ''only'' justification for such rubbish is "free speech" and free speech is justification for saying virtually anything, no matter how evil or inciteful or even false. That is the whole concept behind the "]" and why this is a good example of it. ] (]) 15:58, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


:::You previously wrote that "the IDF shoots first, takes the organs, and then kills young Palestinian boys." The latter part of that quote is not in the Bilal story. ] (]) 16:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
First off the link you provided talk about reliable sourse-right but it does not gives an indication about Al Aharam. Second if you go to Al Haram in Misplaced Pages you will see it says it is controlled by Ministry of Information. Third. Look - forget Misplaced Pages for a moment and look deep inside yourself and answer yourself- Is Al Ahram r-e-a-l-l-y free newspaper independent of the government? You and I know the answer. And finally let me shoot straight, Tiamut. I think Palestinians shoot themselves in the foot when they touch all those conspiracy theories. They loose lots of good will from some good people.And more. Palestinians have pretty good arguments to advance their case. Why then they need to go so low? As I says they shoot themselves in the foot.Their leaders( Arafat too) have been decieving them too long time.That;s righttoo long time.--] (]) 13:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
::::The story says this: ''"On an assignment from a broadcasting network I then travelled around interviewing a great number of Palestinian families in the West Bank and Gaza – meeting parents who told of how their sons had been '''deprived of organs before being killed'''. '''One example''' that I encountered on this eerie trip '''was the young stone-thrower Bilal Achmed Ghanan."''''' He clearly says they took his organs and then killed him. No? ] (]) 16:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


:::::No. It is clearly an general example of organ theft, but it is not entirely clear that it is an example of kill-after-harvest allegations. ] (]) 17:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
:Rm125, the guideline outlined in the link I provided you does not mention newspapers names specifically, except by way of example. The fact that Al-Ahram is not listed though, does not mean we cannot use it. It fits the description provided there to a tee.
::::::The more I read it the clearer it seems to me. Bilal was cited as ''one example of'' sons being "deprived of organs before being killed." Further he goes on to say that he was "not by far the first".... ] (]) 18:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
:I don't think the Egyptian government interfered in any way in the publishing of the article by Khalid Amayreh. And whether or not they interfere with what is published there is really irrelevant to this discussion. The material is sourced, cited and attributed to its author. People can decide for themselves what weight to accord it.
:About Palestinians shooting themselves in the foot ... your opinion is shared by some. Some others think that the people actually shooting them in the feet should be held to account sometimes too. But I don't really want to get into that discussion, because its not related to the article. So thank for sharing, but no thanks. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


:::::::I read it as a more specific example of what that paragraph is about, eg. what he encountered on his trip around the West Bank. ] (]) 18:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
::::::::lol! ] (]) 03:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


It is almost impossible to misunderstand what "example" hints at in the Swedish original but neither Aftonbladet nor Tlaxcala gives that sentence justice in their translations so... laugh on. The original article states "Ett av de exempel jag träffade på under denna kusliga resa var den unge stenkastaren Bilal Achmed Ghanan." Both Tlaxcala and Aftonbladet translate that into "One example that I encountered on this eerie trip was the young stone-thrower Bilal Achmed Ghanan." But that is not entirely correct. Google translate does a somewhat better work with beginning of the sentence when it produce "One of the examples I came across during this spooky trip was the young stone author Bilal Ahmed Ghanian." Personally, I would translate the sentence to "One of the examples I encountered during this eerie journey was the young stown-thrower Bilal Ahmed Ghanian." The translators at Tlaxcala and Aftonbladet might have been confused by the fact that "exempel" is not inflicted in Swedish, but is in English. To fit the singular form "example", maybe they omitted "of the" to correct the English grammar. Nevertheless, as it should be "examples" in plural the sentence is only related to what is said before, not "one example of" what is said right before. And the following story could in fact be something quite different, albeit related to organ theft. ] (]) 09:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Look at what I mean when I say they shooting themselves in the foot. Let me demonstrate that lies will not hold and are exposed. Eventually Palestinians are not benefiting from it:


==Translation request==
:“Israel is well known for its harsh and cruel treatment of Palestinians. Hence, the notion of Israeli authorities extricating organs from the bodies of Palestinians for transplant or sale is credible.<<< Look at this deception. So Israelis are cruel and this is the reason they kill Palestinians and steal their organs! Amazing piece of propaganda . Indeed a reliable source>>>Indeed, in January 2002 an Israeli cabinet minister tacitly admitted that certain organs from the bodies of Palestinians might have been used for Jewish transplant patients without the knowledge of the victims' families.<<< This is a total lie from a sick brain of “reliable source: from “democratic” Egypt>>> The minister, Nessim Dahan, said he couldn't confirm or deny that organs taken from Palestinian victims were used for transplant or in scientific research.<<< Well, I can not confirm or deny that I don’t rape neighborhoods girls every day, what a pity>>>
I'll post on the Swedish Wikiproject a request to translate the following paragraphs.
::::::::::::::Thanks, Mackan. ] (]) 02:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


It took that a while to have the last two excerpts translated, so I did it myself. I know that Jalapenos thinks that I am biased in favor for Aftonbladet, but I reckon that it is easier to persuade some third party to critically review my translation then to have them making it from scratch. So I hereby encourage every Swedish-speaking user who sees this to read and correct my translations (the latter two from Aftonbladet) so that they are as correct as possible and that they don't make what they say any greater then it is. ] (]) 05:31, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Look- you can believe this crap if you want ( I am sure you don‘t) but not everybody are so easily fooled, my friend, Tiamut”--] (]) 14:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


===Sydsvenskan===
:I don't think you should be so fast to judge, when you seem to be misinformed about some basic facts. Yehuda Hiss, the chief pathologist and former director of Abu Kabir institute, the only autopsy institute in Israel, has twice been investigated for removing body parts from people's bodies (Palestinians and Israelis alike) without permission for sale to medical schools in the last 10 years. (See and .) It was the families of Israeli soldiers who first complained about it. It seems that when Israelis complain, the government is quick to put on the appearance of having done something about it, though I should note that Hiss is still the chief pathologist at Abu Kabir, he only lost his position as director. When Palestinians complain of the same thing, they're just anti-Semitic liars. No surprise there. Being a Palestinian that lives in ] I've gotten used to the double standards. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
'''Original:''' "Intervjun med Hiss gjordes för nio år sedan men idag bekräftar israelisk militär att organstölder förekommit där hornhinnor, hjärtklaffar, hud och ben tagits från döda israeler (civila såväl som militärer), palestinier och gästarbetare.
::Remember that we should try to discuss how this Misplaced Pages article should be written (and not the truth/relevance/bias of Donald Boström's article). It would be really good if someone posted a question about whether Al-Ahram is a reliable source on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, and we can get input from more Misplaced Pages contributors. Best regards ] (]) 14:43, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Agreed. Sorry about the diversion. I will post a request at RS noticeboards now. Thanks for the reminder Ulner. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


Detta verkar ge Aftonbladet och Donald Boström rätt till hälften när han i en uppmärksammad artikel i somras menade att Israel stjäl organ från palestinier som man sedan dödar. I gårdagens Aftonbladet beklagar kulturchefen Åsa Linderborg att hon inte ”gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ”, men det var ju just den indiciekedjan Boström målade upp: organbrist i USA och Israel, organstöld i Israel, dödade och uppsprättade palestinier i Gaza."
Ulner, good point. I have a lot to say in responce but you are right. We discuss if AlAharam is RS or not. It is not of course. Here is the link to Freedim of speech in Egypt


'''Translation:''' The interview with Hiss was done nine years ago, but today Israeli military confirms that organ theft have occurred where corneas, heart valves, skin and bone have been taken from dead Israelis (both civilian and military), Palestinians and guest workers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Human_rights_in_Egypt#Freedom_of_speech_and_freedom_of_the_press


This seem to give Aftonbladet and Donald Boström half right when he in a noticed article this summer implied that Israel steals organs from Palestianians that are later killed. In yesterday's Aftonbladet the head of culture Åsa Linderborg regrets that she has not "made it clearer that the Israeli army not shoots Palestinians with the intent to harvest organs", but that was the chain of indices Boström painted: organ shortage in USA and Israel, organ theft in Israel, killed and opened Palestinians in Gaza.
You can do even better research if you don't know already. Rgypts jails are full of journalists no questions about it.


'''Discussion:'''
As to Noticeboard it is a great idea. If you or somebody else can arrange it I appriciate it. Unfortunately i need to leave nowbut there is lots of info already . It just needed to be organized in a logical way for outsider to make it easy to get. I can do it but now I have to go, see, you guys. --] (]) 14:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:I would add a 'does' in, "made it clearer that the Israeli army '''does''' not shoot<s>s</s> Palestinians with the intent to harvest organs", but not reall sure if there is any difference. --] ] 14:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


===Lindborg 1===
::The link to the posting at ] board is . See you around Rm125.]<sup>]</sup> 15:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
'''Original:''' "Israeliska myndigheter förnekade kraftfullt anklagelserna och israeliska befattningshavare kallade artikeln för 'antisemitisk'.


Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon:


– Men symboliken i att ta hud från den befolkning som uppfattas som fienden, och använda huden för den egna militären ... det är något som just på grund av dess symbolik är värt att fundera över, säger Nancy Sheppard-Hughes."
Look, Tiamut in this post you say that Mr Hiss got accused of certain thing( he can be guilty or not it doesn’t matter ) You claim that if an Israeli complains things get done but when a Palestinian complain-they are accused of being anti Semites? I understand your accusation but we can not connect Mr Hiss ( without getting into his specific deed) to this issue. This is two different issues. One is an accusation of discrimination and another a specific accusation against an individual.
Another issue you rase is your difficulty as a Palestinian in Israel ( since Nazareth is a city in Israel). First of you are an Israeli citizen and live in democracy. Like in any democracy you can and should fight for your rights in court and ballot box.. You claim that you are a Palestinian. I don’t have a problem with you identifying yourself this way. But you know that before 1948 the term Palestinian meant a Jew. Arabs never called themselves “Palestinians” They called themselves Arabs or South Syrians but never Palestinians. This terminology or identity only was created mainly after 1967. By no means I want to hart your feelings but we are talking facts here. I don’t think that if you make a reasonable argument somebody will call you an anti Semite. True, Jews are sensitive to anti Semitism because our history but this is real, Tiamut, Most of my family were wiped out during the Holocaust. During 1905 many of my family died in Russia during pogroms. I am not giving you this info in order to compare who suffered the most - I am sure you’ve got your share-but to show you that there is a valid reason for this sensitivity.


'''Translation:'''
Let me tell you a story. Here in LA a couple of years ago I noticed a black guy touching stuff outside my house. I asked him what he is doing on my property. He got very upset and started accusing me of racism. I was surprised at his allegations. I didn‘t care if he is black, white or yellow- he was trespassing my property. Anyway ,I realized he works for a phone company but for some reason he didn‘t wore an uniform with a name tag. He thought I am a racist because I was upset. Why do I tell you the story? Because we can understand his perspective. The guy has lots of history related to discrimination. He heard all the stories from his family and relatives He experienced it himself. Can we blame him for seeing a racist on every street corner? The point is we all sensitive and everybody has his own sensitive buttons. But guess what; if you try to put yourself in the other guys shoes it becomes easier to understand. Nobody will understand your pain the way you feel it, but if you realize that everybody has a different baggage to carry- life becomes easier.
--] (]) 17:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:I understand your concerns Rm125, but we should try to only discuss the Misplaced Pages article here. The question is whether "Al-Ahram is a RS". Perhaps we can wait for input from other users, and continue with some new perspective. Best regards ] (]) 17:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
::I don't agree with much of what you (Rm125) said, but I fully understand the need to vent sometimes. My bad, for straying into off-topic conversation above, but let's try to keep the discussion focused from now on, as Ulner is suggesting. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


"Israeli authorities forcefully denied the accusations and Israeli officials called the article 'anti-semitic'.
== Papers which promote blood libel ==


Many of those who heard about he article perceived it, according to Sheppard-Huges, falsely as if the Israeli army killed Palestinians to get at their organs. What happened at the Kabir institute was bad enough as it was and it affected all kinds of humans, not only Palestinians, she said:


- But the symbolism of taking skin from the population that is perceived as the enemy, and use the skin for it's own military ... that is something that just because of its symbolism of it that is worth tinking about, said Nancy Sheppard-Hughes."
The "newspapers from Iran and Syria are not RS. Those quotes you provided are worse then the Swedish newspaper.Unfortunately this is another example of the blood libel that are spread in certain "free" coutries.


'''Discussion:'''
I have to get rid of this garbage. If you object we will go to the outside opinion for feedback--] (]) 11:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:But the symbolism of taking skin from the '''population'''<s>people</s> that is '''perceived'''<s>understood</s> as the enemy, an<s>s</s>'''d''' us'''e'''<s>ing</s> the skin fo'''r'''<s>t the</s> it's own military ... that is <s>just</s> something '''that just because of its''' <s>with</s> sympolism <s>of it that</s> is worth tinking about --] ] 14:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


===Lindborg 2===
:You cannot simply eliminate sources based on your opinion that they are not reliable sources. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


'''Original:''' "När jag läser artikeln i efterhand kan jag begripa dem som inte förstår hur sommarens organskandal i New Jersey skulle ha att göra med de händelser Boström bevittnade för 17 år sedan på Västbanken och sedan dess försökt engagera världen i. New Jersey med sina israeliska kopplingar var en möjlighet för Boström att aktualisera och uppmärksamma samma brott som engagerat honom ända sedan han första gången skrev om dem i sin bok Inshallah.
Mistake. I didn't chech the sourse. The sourse is fine- nojustification to erase- take my words back, still checking --] (]) 11:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


För mig var det en självklarhet, men jag begriper om det inte var det för alla. Kanske borde vi även gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ, de tar organ när de dödat av andra skäl – skäl som världens mest moraliska armé alltid anser sig ha. Boström påstår heller inget annat och troligen är denna min själv kritik fåfäng; ockupationsmaktens medlöpare skulle ändå ljugit ihop och tjatat in sin tolkning."
Everything is OK but Al Aharam must go - this is not RS. It is funny given the fact that RSes spread the same garbage. There is important difference though. You have to present the garbage anyway to put it on the table, otherwise even more conspiracy theories will be invented. However Al Aharam link gives the appearance as a respectable paper which is not true. What do you think, Tiamut? --] (]) 12:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


'''Translation:'''
:There is nothing wrong with using ] as a source. The material I added to the article is attributed to ]'s reporting in Al-Ahram. Have a little faith in th intelligence of our readership. They can make their own conclusions about what they want to believe after being presented with a wide array of views. We don't arbitrarily remove views simply because we think they are unreliable. ]<sup>]</sup> 12:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
"Reading the article in retrospect, I can understand those who does not understand how this summers organ scandal in New Jersey would have any connection with the events that Boström witnessed 17 years ago. New Jersey with its Israeli connections was an opportunity for Boström to draw notice to and making the same crimes that have engaged him every since he for the first time wrote about them in his book Inshallah topical.


For me that was self-evident, but I understand if it wasn't for everyone. Maybe we should have made it even clearer that the Israeli army does not shoot Palestinians in order to steal their organs, they take organs when they have killed for other reasons - reasons the worlds most moral army always thinks they have. Neither does Boström claim otherwise and probably this my self-criticism is in vain; the accomplices of the occupation force would lie together and rub in their interpretation anyway. "
Well I noticed this quote in the article:


'''Discussion:'''
"During an interview with Al-Jazeera in 2002, late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat accused Israel of murdering Palestinian children and harvesting their organs for transplant operations. "They murder our kids and use their organs as spare parts. Why is the whole world silent? Israel takes advantage of this silence to escalate its oppression and terror against our people," said an angry Arafat"
:"New Jersey would have <s>anything</s> to do with the events that Boström witnessed '''on the west bank''' 17 years ago and have tried to engage the world in"


What do you personally think about this quote? --] (]) 12:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC) :not sure but think '''anything''' is wrong, but not sure what to change it to, maybe '''any connection''' --] ] 15:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
:"<s>For Boström,</s> New Jersey with its Israeli connections was an opportunity '''for Boström''' to draw notice.", why make this change, both are correct English I think?? --] ] 15:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
:Do you think Arafat said this (that is, the source is correct)? If so, do you think publishing Arafat's comment in this article is acceptable/unacceptable? ] (]) 12:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:<u>For me</u> that was self-evident <s>for me</s>, but I understand if <u>it</u> <s>not</s> was<u>n't</u> <s>it</s> for everyone. Maybe we should have made it <u>even</u> clearer that the Israeli army does not shoot Palestinians in order to steal their organs, they take <s>the</s> organs when they have killed for other reasons - reasons the worlds most moral army always thinks they have. Neither does Boström claim otherwise and probably this '''my''' self-criticism is in vain; the accomplices of the occupation force would lie together and rub in their interpretation anyway. " Sorry had some wikimarkup issues, <u>underline</u> or '''bold''' means my addition <s>strike though</s> my deletion--] ] 15:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


::Thank you, I have implemented all your suggestions both texts I am responsible for translating. Some where genuine misses from my part ("for Boström" and "my" for example), other more a matter of style. If you wonder why I moved "for Boström" it was because of "att aktualisera" was so hard to fit in to the same place in the sentence in English ("make topical"), so I moved some words around and didn't notice that I had overdone it. ] (]) 20:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
If you ask me I personally believe he says that ( of course my personal opinion doesn;t count here) however the quote is almoust identical to the article we are talking about. This is the same type of occusation no more and no less.Your question is if it acceptible or unecceptable. Depends on intentions.If it is to promote the blood libel it is one thing but if you put it against another opinion-this is completely different. Intention. This is what is important. --] (]) 12:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Do not worry, you did a very good job, I doubt I could have done as well, I just did some nitpicking after you did the hard work :-). For none Swedish spekers, the Swedish text is actually not that good, there are some grammatical inconstancies that is 'translated' into the English, e.g. "Neither does Boström claim otherwise and probably this my self-criticism is in vain" which talks from a third person perspective and then switches to first in the same sentence. The Swedish text does the same thing so I think it should be 'translated' like that, even though it looks like na error in translation, when in fact it is a error in the original writing. --] ] 01:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


==Useful References for Research==
== Volunteers needed ==
This article is probably not a reliable source, but it has a good selection of relevant references from reliable sources, for anyone wishing to improve the article. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/aw-organs2.html#notes] (]) 04:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


== ]'s massive changes ==
The reference section can be inproved if somebody not as lazy as me can take on himself to make it look like it belongs to encyclopedia. Thanks. --] (]) 00:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


Plot Spoiler is removing any mention of Yehuda Hiss from this article despite the obvious, common sense relevance of Hiss to this topic. Anyway, many sources make the connection; it took me 5 seconds to find ] explicitly connecting the two .


Please stop, PlotSpoiler, and establish consensus before gutting this article.] (]) 10:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/Aftonbladet-Israel_controversy#References <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


::How it's currently framed is obvious ] and ], creating an unnatural connection between the two subjects when it isn't even discussed in those articles themselves. There is no consensus needed in this case. If you want to make a connection, you'll have to rework it so that there is in fact a direct connection and not some ] you created for your own purposes. ] (]) 10:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
== Lede expansion ==


::: It's not original research because the sources repeatedly make that connection themselves. Have you bothered to read the sources, Plot Spoiler?
The lede is basically bare and I've expanded it according to ] by incorporating the major points of the topic. It could still use some work and there will probably be some editors that disagree with some of the wording. I beseech those editors not to pull off blanket reverts, but to collaborate in a constructive manner to create a lede in accordance with ].--'']] ]'' 01:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


::: makes the connection.


::: makes the connection.
Agree with you plus as we discussed here


::: makes the connection.
Are you ready to try? I am all for it. The thing it is one of the most important parts and this is the reason I am sure you can help here. I am at your disposal, maestro. --] (]) 03:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


::: makes the connection.
:Liftarn has already made some changes, and I added a couple of sentences too. I still think its premature to write a lead, which is why I initially reverted the additions by Brewcrewer. (Plus they were one-sided). I think its too hard to avoid OR and POV in the framing of this controversy at such an early stage (Deciding who is involved and how to describe them). But hey, I'll go with the flow. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


::: Your changes are massive and disruptive. Again, please obtain consensus instead of just edit warring. ] (]) 10:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
::Hi Rm 125. You deleted . Would you care to explain why? That information is in our article. Its strange to me that we would mention all the players in this controversy in the introduction, but ignore what Palestinians have to say. Is there any particular reason for excluding their views from the introduction? ]<sup>]</sup> 18:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


:::: So is this about Hiss or is that about Bostrom's original article? Bostrom did not talk about Hiss in his original article and it had nothing to do about his claims at that point. This is just added information to find a means to corroborate his findings, but this was not part of the actual controversy itself, was it not? ] (]) 11:53, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
== Recent ==


::::: So are you conceding that the connection is not just original research then, but is in fact supported by many sources? If so, this would confirm that you did not read the sources in this article before making massive changes. In future, can you please read the sources before making assertions as to what they do or do not say? ] (]) 18:29, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
ATTENTION:CONTERPOUNCH IS NOR


:::: ... and as the original article does mention Abu Kabir and Aftonbladet see the Hiss interview as rehabilitating, proving them right all along, it is relevant enough to mention. The controversy also influenced Nancy Sheper-Huges to publish her material. ] (]) 12:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
] ]
--] (]) 02:30, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


== The alleged claim that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs ==
Halid from Al Aharam- this is a issue of ]--] (]) 02:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the following sentence, regarding Hiss's revelations, from the lede, as it is not supported by the body. The body states that the claim that the article claimed that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs is disputed by the authors, and publishers.
Hence the sentence is not representative of the article, and inappropriate in the lede, unless it explains who made the claim.
"There was nothing in the interview to substantiate the claim that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs.<ref name="abcnews.go.com"> By Simon McGregor-Wood, ABC News, December 21, 2009. </ref><ref name=ghiss/> <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:43, 23 March 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


{{Reflist-talk}}
:Counterpunch is no good, but not exactly for the reasons that you describe. In general, if something is claimed by a ] we don't question how they got that information - whether its their original research or based on something more valid. Reliable sources can basically say what they want. However, ], which describes itself as as "muckraking with a radical attitude", is in no way considered a reliable source per ]. Their "muckrackings" don't deserve entry into an encyclopedia, especially when its furthering their anti-Israel agenda, and especially when its perpetuating ].--'']] ]'' 02:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


== Israeli officials labelling the report as anti-semitic ==


This was removed:
Agree 110% with you. This is just ONE of the reasons ]. It is overriding reason and I agree with you. Look, if you have a toolbox with a hammer but you need to kill a bug...you know the rest.. :) --] (]) 03:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Israeli officials denounced the report at the time, labeling it "anti-Semitic," but did not comment on the specific allegations<ref>http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=248510</ref>


BTW the same thing with Al Aharam newspaper. The claim is it is ] however it is mess to prove it. So ] is the tool for the task in hand. All the best --] (]) 03:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC) Are there specific objections to it? It seems to be ] and fairly notable. ] (]) 08:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


Here is another source: http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=171732
Brewscrewer. another consideration for mr here. I went to arguments and fights with people here in the past. Some people don't have prior knowledge about the sourse and for them it is RS. Sometimes- Ithink_ it is better to be patient with them and present your argument in a mild way. People don't have the same backround and this can be a problem. I admit that I myself sometimes overreact. I see it this way: If you drive your car and you know you are right you have 2 options: euther to craxh your car and still be right or to let the other driver be right but come home to your kids in one piece. Why can't we just get along?
<blockquote>
The council and the commissioner’s office, “however unwittingly, helped to propagate an anti-Semitic libel by publishing as an official UN document,” wrote UN Watch Executive Director Hillel Neuer.


He called on the UN council and high commissioner to “immediately cease circulating this racist, hateful and inflammatory text to the ambassadors and other delegates of the UNHRC.”
:People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the Wikipedians and the Wikipediasses?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here on Misplaced Pages. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out! :) --] (]) 03:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
</blockquote>
] (]) 09:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


It is the label by Israelis. We should not add anti-semitic category to the article only because of this.] (]) 14:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
== More edit comments ==


{{reflist-talk}}
Please make even more comments in the edit summary - this makes it easier to follow your arguments. (People here are generally good but even more comments would be nice). ] (]) 12:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


== External links modified ==


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
== This article and how Misplaced Pages should function ==
This article exists in two languages, English and Swedish. Reading the two articles, you cannot but notice that they are '''very''' different. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, because they are both very bad, but for very different reasons. It might be an idea to try to bring them somewhat more in line with each other and to improve them in the process. The worst things with this page (a heapload of redundant and irrelevant information, such as reactions from American congressmen and a looney lawsuit) is missing from the Swedish page. The excessive reporting on how Aftonbladet itself perceive the controversy and the redudant information from just about every Swedish newspaper is luckily missing from this page.] (]) 16:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


I have just added archive links to {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
I agree with you that the article needs lots of work still. When you talking about English/Swedish versions you mean the translation or Misplaced Pages versions? If the translation is bad the it can be corrected by someone who is knolegeble. I don't speak Swedish ( just 2 words and all of them bad) so I have nothing to say. Generally let's stick to what we know. I can contribute with Hebrew or Russian versions in which I am equaly fluent, but Swedish?-nada.All the best--] (]) 17:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080616031540/http://www.health.gov.il:80/english/forensic.htm to http://www.health.gov.il/english/forensic.htm


When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know.
==Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper==
More and more, this article starts to incorporate everything that has been written about this controversy. '''Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper''' and an article should not try to include everything. I have already pointed out that personal opinions on non-involved individuals are not relevant. I've just removed text about a law-suit. It's not new, it appeared in the news about two weeks ago. However, it is an individual who has filed the claim for himself in the US, and it has no chance of succeeding nor even appear before a judge. While a court process would be notable, rumours about such a process or a looney claim that has no chance of being dealt with simply are not notable. Once again, the challenge we face in this article is to select what we should '''remove''', not '''add'''.] (]) 16:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
:I agree with Jeppiz; personal opinions on non-involved individuals should be removed. ] (]) 16:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


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I agree that Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper however it is helpful to reason why this or that piece belongs or doesn't belong here. So in any perticular case when objections are rased the criteria upon which they are based upon needs to be presented. All the best --] (]) 17:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 04:05, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
== Lede once again please read carefully ==


== External links modified ==
I just want to clarify couple of points here.


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
lede is supposed to present the controversy and thats it. It supposed to btiefly present '''the essense''' of an argument and to answer the question" what;s all this about" After all we have the whole article to dedicate to various other points and arguments. Generally guys we have to cool down and to think ] here.


I have just added archive links to {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
Some people like Steiberger I tried to answer here ]but looks like Tiamut wants to go with the same line.
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090903091921/http://www.medievarlden.se:80/etik-a-politik/6-etik-a-politik/9987-tva-jk-anmaelningar-efter-aftonbladets-artikel-om-organhandel to http://medievarlden.se/etik-a-politik/6-etik-a-politik/9987-tva-jk-anmaelningar-efter-aftonbladets-artikel-om-organhandel
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090417030251/http://www.snippa.net:80/ to http://www.snippa.net/


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Tiamut, you can also see the previous reasons and ] and ],] and also the other point already mentioned inside the article. Generally guys we need to struggle here with our natural tendency to persue our personal point of view. Let's try to rise above it and present the story from ] as much as possible.


{{sourcecheck|checked=true}}
Let's leave the lede as is. Revert it please.All the best --] (]) 19:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 22:38, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
:I suggest you click on the link I provided in my reversion of your edit. It goes to a section within the very article that we are discussing here. In that section you can read about the things you deleted but spelled out in greater detail and with sources. So what you deleted could impossibly be OR and if you try to make the point of CS, well, why didn't you delete the whole lead as nothing in it has adequate sources right there? When it comes to "the essence" of this controversy, we do yet don't know what that will be. The controversy is still ongoing. And, to me, if some of the top officials of the PA are to head an investigation into organ harvesting because of this article, I think that would be relevant. Take it back! ] (]) 20:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
:(ec) Lead sections do not need inline citations if the material is cited in the body of the article (see ]), but so there is no confusion I reinstated the material with the citation from the body. Lead sections are meant to summarize the article and the response from the PA is certainly a relevant part of both the article and the lead. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 20:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)</font></small>


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
Steinberger, just because you linked to another badly written article doesn't proove your point. The article you mentioned is a big mess. The same argument is applicable to the other one, hovever I don't have time to correct all sins of humanity now. All the best. --] (]) 21:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


I have just modified {{plural:3|one external link|3 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
:What other article? ] (]) 21:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
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--] (]) 21:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 04:08, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Nableezy, Is it you? Marhabbah, I am happy you follow me and even make same sense..
--] (]) 21:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
:I got here from the RS/N where some people were oddly trying to say al-Ahram is not a reliable source. Aint no following so please do not suggest that I am. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 21:24, 6 September 2009 (UTC)</font></small>


== External links modified ==
:: ] is a link to this article. "#" in wikilinks is used to refer to a certain section within an article, in this case where what you deleted as lacking sources had sources... if you follow. ] (]) 22:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
== Al Aharam dispute ==


I have just modified 6 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
Some claim that ] is a reliable sourse-it is not for this reason Nableezy and I updated ]. I hope you are satisfied. I hope to put this issue to rest. all the best --] (]) 22:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418673856&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
:Not exactly, being state owned does not mean it is not reliable. There are other venues for such a discussion, in fact one has already taken place, and most uninvolved editors say al-Ahram does meet the requirements of ]. Al-Ahram is a major news source and you cannot just disregard whatever they publish. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 23:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
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:Stop removing things cited to al-Ahram just because you do not like it. Your last edit summary cited ]. The article at Al-Ahram is not a self-published source. It cited ]. The material is cited to a secondary reliable source with an inline citation. It cited ]. Al-Arham is a secondary source. Please stop trying to remove a major news source because you dont like what they have to say. The RS/N discussion seems pretty lopsided with the argument that it does meet ]. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 23:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)</font></small>
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I don't buy it. Find me one instance when this newspaper critisized Mubbarak-there is non.


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 01:30, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
You can claim that Pravda and Izvestia used to be reliable sourse during soviet times since they used to be state owned... It used to be a joke in Russia; In 'Pravda'(truth} there is no "Izvestia"(information) and in Isvestia (information) there is no "Pravda"( truth)


== External links modified ==
How sad and pathetic that in 21 century and in 'encyclopedia' from all placed I need to explain the gentelman from Saudi Arabia what a realfree speech means


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Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 09:28, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

== No anti-Semitic conspiracy theory ==
{{ping|Repropo}} The label conspiracy theory is controversial and thus that some people have called it a conspiracy theory is not sufficient. And fwiw, those who called it a conspiracy theory did so before the full extent of the scandal was well-known. Israeli doctors engaged in illicit organ harvesting which you can read about here: ] (]) 07:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

== External links ==


Though sections 23-27 on this page indicate the article's page once had external links why aren't there any there at the moment? ] (]) 01:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
What i am saying here is that AlAharam is not a reliable sourse-period. You connect to this something that relates specifically to that porsion. You mix things up. Reread first. This is ONLY about Al Aharam and if it is a reliable sourse. Look at the title.All the best to the confused. --] (]) 23:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

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Mess

The article needs to be rewritten, I suggest to write first an introduction, followed by the israeli reaction and allegations of antisemetism, then the swedish government reaction --Osm agha (talk) 22:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the article needs massive cleanup. The "Harvesting Allegations Confirmed" section should really be moved much higher, maybe even right after the introduction and before the reaction sections. ThePhantomCopyEditor (talk) 19:57, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Papers which promote blood libel

The "newspapers from Iran and Syria are not RS. Those quotes you provided are worse then the Swedish newspaper.Unfortunately this is another example of the blood libel that are spread in certain "free" coutries.

I have to get rid of this garbage. If you object we will go to the outside opinion for feedback--Rm125 (talk) 11:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You cannot simply eliminate sources based on your opinion that they are not reliable sources. Tiamut 11:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Mistake. I didn't chech the sourse. The sourse is fine- nojustification to erase- take my words back, still checking --Rm125 (talk) 11:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Everything is OK but Al Aharam must go - this is not RS. It is funny given the fact that RSes spread the same garbage. There is important difference though. You have to present the garbage anyway to put it on the table, otherwise even more conspiracy theories will be invented. However Al Aharam link gives the appearance as a respectable paper which is not true. What do you think, Tiamut? --Rm125 (talk) 12:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with using Al-Ahram as a source. The material I added to the article is attributed to Khalid Amayreh's reporting in Al-Ahram. Have a little faith in th intelligence of our readership. They can make their own conclusions about what they want to believe after being presented with a wide array of views. We don't arbitrarily remove views simply because we think they are unreliable. Tiamut 12:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Well I noticed this quote in the article:

"During an interview with Al-Jazeera in 2002, late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat accused Israel of murdering Palestinian children and harvesting their organs for transplant operations. "They murder our kids and use their organs as spare parts. Why is the whole world silent? Israel takes advantage of this silence to escalate its oppression and terror against our people," said an angry Arafat"

What do you personally think about this quote? --Rm125 (talk) 12:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you think Arafat said this (that is, the source is correct)? If so, do you think publishing Arafat's comment in this article is acceptable/unacceptable? Ulner (talk) 12:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

If you ask me I personally believe he says that ( of course my personal opinion doesn;t count here) however the quote is almoust identical to the article we are talking about. This is the same type of occusation no more and no less.Your question is if it acceptible or unecceptable. Depends on intentions.If it is to promote the blood libel it is one thing but if you put it against another opinion-this is completely different. Intention. This is what is important. --Rm125 (talk) 12:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Strange, because Israel has admited it (in december 2009). If this was the same as the blood libel, then is the blood libel true???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.249.145 (talk) 13:09, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

AfD

I'd like to put this article up for AfD. It seems to be a huge article focused on a small recent event. If and when the allegations are substantiated and the story is shown to have impact on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, we can then create an article about it. Otherwise it seems to be just a case of WP:RECENT. Can I hear a few preliminary voices before sending this to AfD? Joe407 (talk) 11:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. It was a small controversy, lasted a short while, and subsided, in the absence of any substantiating evidence. okedem (talk) 11:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Also agree. // Liftarn (talk) 13:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I think a nomination should wait. The investigation on Borsiin Bonniers condemnation are to be ready by mid-october and after that, parliamentary hearings are going to be held. The freedom of speech-side of the controversy is not to big either as it seems right now, but if she is forced to leave her post, I think it will be. Steinberger (talk) 14:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I also think nomination at this time is premature. Its only been a month since the allegations were made. This is still a developing story. Tiamut 14:41, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I hear what you are saying but shouldn't it work in reverse? We only create an article once it has proven it's notability. Maybe the article should be shelved / userfied for a few months and then if the topic has proven notable, added to the encyclopedia? Joe407 (talk) 16:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
) I can see what you are saying too, but does the article actually fail WP:N at this time? While it could be argued that this falls under WP:ONEEVENT, many subsequent developments and ongoing developments related to the story make that argument a weak one. If all ongoing developments lead nowhere, the argument for AfD might be stronger. If they lead somewhere, well then the article is halfway written and in place, ready for improvement. Of course, you are free to nominate at any time. Tiamut 20:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
WP:ONEEVENT is specific to BLPs and says that any biographies of people involved in only one event should be covered in the page on the event, which indirectly says that a single event can be notable and merit an article. nableezy - 20:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
The kernel of the allegation, Israel's harvesting of the organs of dead Palestinians and other without permission, appears to have been substantiated per FN 7-9. So the article is relevant to how some Palestinians view Israel, etc.--NYCJosh (talk) 16:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE

The lede included some opinions and theories promoted by some unnotable freelance journalist Jonathon Cook. Per WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE its being removed. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

That information is not only provided by Jonathan Cook. It is also mentioned by other journalists. I will amass more sources, add them to the main body, and restore the text in question. It is certainly relevant and notable that accusations that the IDF has been harvesting organs from Palestinians date back more than two decades. Tiamut 13:31, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Anyone mainstream or more propagandists?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:12, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Now Jonathan Cook has been proved right on this one, maybe it's time to re-visit the Israeli nerve gas attacks of which he was just one of a number of western reporters. 81.152.36.143 (talk) 15:51, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Needs udpates

This article should probably be updated based on some of the more recent reports, particularly the section on Aftonbladet's response. I've just added some of this to the lead, but the rest of the article seems pretty dated. That may be because this is a "tempest in a tea cup" that will tend to lose attention, but the recent claims are clearly relevant. Here is Aftonbladet's update, which is reported on by Haaretz here. Here is a direct report from Haaretz on the jailing of the two Haifa men, and here is a little summary with Hiss. The piece from Jonathan Cook is here. Here is something in The Forward. I don't think I'll have time to update the rest of the article, but perhaps these will help anyone looking to do so. Mackan79 (talk) 23:58, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Given that Israel has admitted that it did have a practice of human organ harvesting from dead bodies of Palestinians and others without permission, it seems the aritcle should be now be re-written. The title should be changed to something like "Human Organ Harvesting in Israel" and the intro paragraph etc should reflect that topic. The Aftonbladet article and the controversy around it should then be just one important section of the article about human organ harvesting in Israel. Any thoughts? Any takers on getting started? --NYCJosh (talk) 16:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I haven't looked at how much there is in new sourcing, but some work is certainly needed. The greater the amount of material on the recent acknowledgments, and the less they refer to the Aftonbladet story, the more I'd tend to agree with a complete rewrite. I am guessing it is too early to make a big change, since the story has been out there for months and we're talking about reevaluating based on one or two days of reporting. Mackan79 (talk) 18:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
This article by Alison Weir from If Americans Knew, published in the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, gives an extensive overview of the Israeli organ harvesting network worldwide. It may prove useful in any rewriting of the article as well. Weir wrote earlier when the Aftonbladet scandal first broke and much of what she wrote then is only being reported (in part) by the mainstream media now. Tiamut 21:19, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm looking through some of these reports. One aspect of the coverage I find interesting is how the different newspapers are dealing with the AP report, and the idea that Aftonbladet claimed Israel was killing Palestinians for their organs. For example, the New York Times states this to have been Aftonbladet's claim ("The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic, who released it because of a huge controversy last summer over an allegation by a Swedish newspaper that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to harvest their organs. Israel hotly denied the charge."), while Al Jazeera is more legalistic ("In August the Aftonbladet newspaper ran an article alleging that the Israeli army had stolen body organs from Palestinian men after killing them."). I heard a radio report today on NPR that was more like the New York Times. In looking at the article, Al Jazeera is clearly more accurate. From the translation here:

But Palestinians also harbor strong suspicions against Israel for seizing young men and having them serve as the country’s organ reserve – a very serious accusation, with enough question marks to motivate the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to start an investigation about possible war crimes.

It seems a stretch to call this an allegation from Aftonbladet that it happened. I see now a statement attributed to Nancy Sheppard-Hughes, the professor who released the interview with Hiss, in Aftonbladet's most recent update, which states via Google translate: "Many people who heard about the article understood it, according to Sheppard-Hughes, erroneously as Israeli army killing of Palestinians to access their . What happened on Kabirinstitutet was bad enough as it was and hit all kinds of people, not just Palestinians, she says." I am not sure anything specifically needs to be changed at the moment, but it suggests this may be something editors here need to navigate. Someone said in an edit summary that Aftonbladet specifically denied making that claim, so I am curious if that comes up as well. Mackan79 (talk) 07:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting, Mackan, about the different ways in which media are reporting this story. There was a misleading he said/she said quality in the way the controversy was presented by US/Western media after Aftonbladet ran the story, and there is a further misleading quality in the way the Israeli acknowledgment is being presented by those media, as you point out. I am fairly certain that most people in the US who read about the controversy in the wake of the Aftonbladet article, with all the charges of anti-Israelism, "blood libel" etc., will now still have no clue that central claims of that article have been acknowledged by Israel to be true. That too is a reflection on US media.--NYCJosh (talk) 04:20, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

To answer my own question, I see that the culture editor of Aftonbladet addresses the point in an update here. Via Google translate, which I had to touch up:

Perhaps we should also made more clear that the Israeli army shoot Palestinian in order to steal the , when killed for other reasons - reasons that the most moral army always feel that they have. Bostrom claims is no different and probably this is my self-criticism vain; occupying power accomplices still and in their interpretation.

This was noted in the rival paper Sydsvenskan's response:

This seems to Aftonbladet and Donald Bostrom half when article this summer, he that Israel is stealing organs from Palestinians who then kill. In yesterday's Aftonbladet Culture Director Asa Linderborg that she "made even clearer that the Israeli army shoots Palestinian in order to steal the body," but it was precisely the Bostrom painted: organ shortage in the U.S. and Israel, organ theft in Israel, killing and cut open the Palestinians in Gaza.

I think this is a pretty accurate translation for anyone else to check if they like, and might suggest material to address the whole confusion about what Aftonbladet said and the reaction to it. Mackan79 (talk) 05:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Broader article

A broader article including this topic was just started, which I then moved to its creator's userspace here: User:Yamanam/2009_Israel_organ_controversy. I'm not 100% sure what's the best way to go about this, but it seemed that if others were interested in working on such an article they could do so there. I could see such an article coming to include this article as one part, probably more likely than ending up with two separate articles, but I think that may take a little time to see. This is just to let others know of its existence. Mackan79 (talk) 09:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Israel now confirms

According to this article ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs ) Israel has now confirmed to harvested organs from dead Palestinians, without the consent of their families till 1990s. 84.147.195.146 (talk) 16:48, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Why does the item refer to claims in the original article "that Israeli soldiers were deliberatly killing Palestinians for their organs or that Israel were kidnapping Palestinians and harvesting their organs" when this is not covered in the English summary of the original article? Either the summary needs to be edited or this should be clarified to be a misleading piece of diversion by the Israeli officials Andrew Scott Selkirk (talk) 16:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
The article did hint that Israel was deliberately killing Palestinians for their organs. It reported Palestinian suspicions that this was the case and commented that there is "enough question marks to motivate the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to start an investigation about possible war crimes".
This is a key element of the controversy. If Aftonbladet had only written about possible organ harvest, the issue would have got far different proportions. Blood libel is a serious thing, and in the context of organ harvesting, one of the ugliest elements of classical antisemitism. By crossing this limit, the newspaper invited a storm of criticism. Israel's confirmation of harvesting organs from dead Palestinians without consent of the families is significant, but it should not marginalize the darker aspects of the article, Aftonbladet's recent moves to cover them up notwithstanding. --Jonund (talk) 22:35, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm not clear the questions were about whether people were being killed just for this purpose. Having followed this issue, I think this distinction about how the individuals were killed is quite new, and a result of the AP story which created the distinction. The prior controversy that I saw was over whether in fact the organs were taken, whether Bostrom should have believed the Palestinian claims, and whether Bostrom should have made the connection to the case in New Jersey. In truth I don't think anyone would have proposed the idea that maybe the organs were taken, but only after these individuals died, before the AP suddenly made that the story. That is one of the problems as well, in that there are plenty of possibilities here that could be discussed in a less loaded context. Many people seem to feel that unless there is hard proof, nothing unethical should even be proposed. It makes it hard to have a discussion. Mackan79 (talk) 02:49, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Organ harvesting in Israel

Shouldn't a separate article about "Organ harvesting in Israel" be created? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:25, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I would strongly suggest working up a draft before starting it, and getting others to comment. This can be done in your userspace, as I suggested to another user two sections above. If you just start an article, the problem is that it will almost certainly be nominated for deletion, and then we will have a lot of people deciding what happens who a.) take strong views, and b.) haven't looked into the issue. If nothing else, this can waste a great deal of time. Al Jazeera reported today that the Israeli parliament is hearing testimony on the issue, so this may get bigger to where there should be an article on it. Compiling the sources would be the first step, showing that they extend beyond a recent controversy would probably be the second. Mackan79 (talk) 22:10, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Support93.96.148.42 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:11, 13 February 2010 (UTC).

WPMED

As far as I can tell, a political controversy about a newspaper article is neither a disease nor a treatment. WPMED hereby declines to consider this article as within its scope.

If any WPMED member has a different opinion, please feel free to contact me at WP:MEDA. In the meantime, non-members are reminded that they cannot legitimately demand that any WikiProject support any article. WikiProject tagging is not categorization, and projects have absolute authority over their scope. Please therefore do not re-tag this article as being within the scope of this project. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I was not the one who tagged, requested assistance or whatever. However, the aspect of this case that I think the tagger had on its mind when he added WPMED was the feasibility of using gun-shot victims as organ donors. Or as things has unraveled, what organs can be used for research and donation in a gun-shot victim? That might not be clear as nothing in this article speaks about it. Steinberger (talk) 00:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is lying again (and again).

Anything to help incriminate Israel and get the accusers off the hook. The Misplaced Pages article is, as usual, lying, by alleging that the Aftonbladet article never claimed that the IDF were killing Palestinians for their organs, but it was the Aftonbladet article that claimed that the Palestinians were disappearing alive, and being returned dead without their organs.
Misplaced Pages's lie is exposed by the text of the Aftonbladet article itself, which speaks volumes:
"In the summer of 1992, Ehud Olmert, then minister of health, tried to address the issue of organ shortage by launching a big campaign aimed at having the Israeli public register for post mortem organ donation...While the campaign was running, young Palestinian men started to disappear from villages in the West Bank and Gaza. After five days Israeli soldiers would bring them back dead, with their bodies ripped open."
This information is not presented as a Palestinian allegation, but as an established fact by the Aftonbladet. This refutes Misplaced Pages's repeated assertions.
As the 'Guardian' article mentions,
"However, there was no evidence that Israel had killed Palestinians to take their organs, as the Swedish paper reported. Aftonbladet quoted Palestinians as saying young men from the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been seized by the Israeli forces and their bodies returned to their families with missing organs."
Misplaced Pages should not peddle in such lies, which only debase and discredit it as a reliable source of information.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
That is an interesting quote you bring, which at least I had not looked at in detail. However, the real question is whether this amounts to "reporting that Israel was killing Palestinians to take their organs." Certainly it doesn't; if we are asking whether Israel was taking organs from Palestinians who had already been killed, or killing them in order to take their organs, these types of statements are provocative in either case, but do not distinguish either way. In either case, you would have Palestinians disappearing and returning in exactly the same manner. The accusation that they were murdered just for this purpose remains a separate charge. For that matter Aftonbladet, Bostrom, and Sheppard-Hughes have all denied that Aftonbladet made this claim. I think the answer is that we cannot say that the claim was or was not made, since at a minimum the issue is disputed. Mackan79 (talk) 21:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
No, I cannot agree with this statement, at all. Let's not muddy the waters here. There is no ambiguity in the article. Aftonbladet specifically said that "young Palestinian men started to disappear from the West Bank and Gaza" and backed up this statement by quoting Palestinians as saying "young men from villages in the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been seized by the Israeli forces and their bodies returned to their families with missing organs." This is juxtaposed with another statement that the diasappearances occurred during a campaign in Israel for organ donations. These statements cannot be logically interpreted in any other way than to charge the Israelis directly with capturing live healthy young Palestinians for the purpose of taking their organs, and then returning their murdered, plundered bodies. When combined with other information in the article about Jewish and Israeli individuals being arrested abroad on suspicion of illegal organ trafficking (from live organ donors, by the way), the article becomes tantamount to a full-scale blood libel, all designed to support the central thesis as expressed in the title, that "our sons are being plundered of their organs".
What Aftonbladet and Bostrom said afterwards, distancing themselves from the allegations to cover their own behinds, is really irrelevant.
The Guardian, which is not generally known for its warm sympathies toward Israel, wrote a follow-up article which, though accusing Israel of in the past harvesting organs from already dead bodies (mostly Israeli) in the morgue, debunked the main allegations in the Aftonbladet article:
"However, there was no evidence that Israel had killed Palestinians to take their organs, as the Swedish paper reported. Aftonbladet quoted Palestinians as saying young men from the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been seized by the Israeli forces and their bodies returned to their families with missing organs."
Unfortunately, this Misplaced Pages article gives Aftonbladet exactly the diplomatic cover they need. Sadly, "freedom of speech" and "NPOV" have trumped the facts once again.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 16:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I can be more specific, having read the Aftonbladet article once again. It specifically carries the accusation that Israel killed living Palestinians to take their organs.
"I then travelled around interviewing a great number of Palestinian families in the West Bank and Gaza – meeting parents who told of how their sons had been deprived of organs before being killed."
and then
"Discussions ended with Israeli soldiers loading the badly wounded Bilal in a jeep and driving him to the outskirts of the village, where a military helicopter waited. The boy was flown to a destination unknown to his family. Five days later he came back, dead and wrapped in green hospital fabric."
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 16:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I saw discussion somewhere, I think it may have been the Freakonomics blog in the New York Times, about whether it is possible to take some of these organs after a person has died. This may even have been with kidneys, although I have no knowledge of the science, but I believe in some cases the standard method for organ transplant requires that the person's heart and/or lungs have not stopped functioning. This still would not mean that they were killed for that purpose, although of course it does raise plenty of related ethical issues. But then the question is whether those issues are different from the ones associated with the story as currently accepted. I am sure that could be debated, but having looked through this, my view remains that we can't attribute the story with this claim. I am going to remove the statement that the claim is attributed "falsely" in any case. Mackan79 (talk) 01:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Ive read the Aftonbladet article many times and it never suggests that anyone is killed BECAUSE anyone wants to take his organs. This claim was NEVER mentioned in Sweden (were the original article was easy available for everyone) until after Israel admitted to the organ thefts. And as all of us knows, there is no need for extra killings to get fresh young bodies in Palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.249.145 (talk) 13:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Importance of israeli admissions of Organ Harvest

I have moved the following paragraph to second in the lede, from last, in an attempt to balance the article.

In December 2009, Israel admitted there had been organ harvesting of skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from dead bodies of Palestinians, Israeli soldiers and citizens and foreign workers, without permission from relatives, in the 1990s, but that this practice no longer occurred.

93.96.148.42 (talk)

Today Aftonbladet publisches an article about what would be an ultimate admission of guilt. They have replaced the director of the Coroners office(?), and the new director, Chen Kugel, writes to Donald Boström: "Du kan säga att du bidragit till denna förändring genom att rapportera om situationen”. "You can state that you have contributed to this change by repporting about the situation". The article is here http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article16430325.ab . I am not qualified enough to know where and what to write in the text. (the text is really a mess with repeting same things on more than one place) Maybe someone with better knowledge in english can do it? It would also be good with a engish source.

I also think this wiki-article gives to much importance to what other swedish newspapers are saying, Aftonbladet is the only major newspaper in Sweden that are left leaning, and also the only one that are pro-palestinian. All the others are sionistic (well, Svenska Dagbladet (conservative) are sionistic on the editorial, but balanced in the paper). This makes that they are taking every chance they get to attac Aftonbladet... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Växelhäxan (talkcontribs) 10:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

References

  1. Israel harvested organs in '90s without permission Google News 20th Dec 2009.
  2. New York Times: Israel Harvested Organs in '90s Without Permission
  3. Aftonbladet: Israel tog organ – utan tillstånd

Does this Source support this statement?

As far as I can see it does not, so I have removed it from the lede, and posted it here.

Boström later said in an event in Israel that he had reconsidered his views on the article, that he had no proof other than allegations of Palestinians, and that he would have written the article differently if done again. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127720.html93.96.148.42 (talk) 01:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

About press freedom in Sweden

It's been suggested in edits to the article that the point about press freedom is "trivial." In fact this point has been central to the Swedish response, specifically that it would violate the Swedish Constitution for government officials to criticize an article. We discuss this in the article, but it's seen for instance here where the Swedish Prime Minister states, as we quote him, that "e cannot be asked by anyone to contravene the Swedish constitution, and this is something we will also not do within the European Union." Others disagreed and said that they could perhaps have criticized it to some extent, but we need to be clear that this was a discussion of the Swedish Constitution, not just an appeal to the principle of free press. Mackan79 (talk) 02:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You seriously misunderstood my point. My actual point is supported by the source you bring, and it was this: the idea that the publication of the article was a valid manifestation of freedom of the press is trivial and not central to the article; what is important is that Sweden argued that freedom of the press prohibits the government from criticizing the article. I support including the constitution issue in the presentation of Sweden's argument. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 02:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
OK as to your meaning. I am not sure that the distinction is so clear, however. You can see in our section on legal complaints that the validity of the publication is part of the issue in terms of whether there is protection. Regardless, I am mainly concerned that it is clear they did not merely "cite freedom of the press," as it said earlier, which suggests that it is just a matter of abstract principles when in fact it was a constitutional issue. Mackan79 (talk) 03:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Nature of the article's claim

Regarding the initial article's claims, and whether it stated that Palestinians were being killed for the sake of taking their organs, this has been discussed some above. My view remains that while some have attributed this claim to the article, the fact that the author and others contend that it did not claim this means that the point is disputed, and accordingly per WP:NPOV that we can present reliable sources, but we cannot ourselves take a position on the matter. I'm fairly certain I have seen the author, Aftonbladet's culture editor, and Nancy Scheper-Hughes all dispute that the article makes this claim. I don't have all of these in front of me, but the article we cite is this follow up in Aftonbladet, which states: "Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon." Via Google Translate, "Many people who heard about the article understood it, according to Sheppard-Hughes, erroneously as Israeli army killing of Palestinians to access their services. What happened on Kabirinstitutet was bad enough as it was and hit all kinds of people, not just Palestinians, she says." I don't recall if I have read her statement independently, but it seems clear enough that when the author and the publication dispute the point then that alone is a reliable statement that certainly we cannot disregard. Mackan79 (talk) 04:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that the major known stances on what the article said be presented in the second paragraph of the lead, properly attributed, and keeping WP:RS and WP:DUE in mind, which favor reliable third party sources. In the article you're quoting, it doesn't look like Sheppard-Hughes is disputing the content of the original article at all, and is also not disputing the claim itself (that Israel killed Palestinians to take their organs); she's merely saying that Israel also took organs from non-Palestinians. In any case, Sheppard-Hughes is not a notable POV on the question of what the original article said. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 08:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
When I dicussed the nature and the most given summurization of the article on the Swedish page, I found this to back up my claims and they might do well here also: In Haaretz and Jerusalem Post they said that article claim IDF killed Palestinians for their organs. In CNN, ABC, Al-Jazeera, NY Times, LA Times and the Economist they said that Israel harvested organs from dead or killed Palestinians. The selection above is, however, screwed, as it selected to prove that everybody did not read the article with the same level of paranoia and that a string of WP:RS read it in another way. Steinberger (talk) 13:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Many of the reports that such a claim were made seem to come from one syndicated AP article.93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Changes to the lead

I am concerned that recent changes to the lead have been problematic. One in particular has the third paragraph now as follows:

The Israeli government and several US congresspersons said the article resembled blood libels against Jews and asked the Swedish government to denounce it. Stockholm refused, citing freedom of the press, and the Swedish Newspaper Publishers' Association as well as Reporters Without Borders supported its position. Swedish ambassador to Israel Elisabet Borsiin called the article "shocking and appalling", but the Swedish government distanced itself from her remarks. The Palestinian Authority announced it would establish an inquiry commission to investigate the article's claims.

As an initial issue, I do not see how the first sentence here is appropriate. Having followed the dispute, the changes seems generally to be highlighting the very most controversial things that people have said, as if this has been the general response on the issue. Certainly there have been some comparisons to blood libels, and there was some very strong criticism of the Israeli response. Most of the sources did not respond primarily by asserting that the article was a blood libel, however, and even most sources that criticized the article did not call it a blood libel. To write this as if it was the predominant response thus does not accurately reflect the general commentary on the issue. Even as a factual matter, I do not see where several congresspersons said that it was a blood libel. I edited this to state that the Israeli government and several congresspersons "condemned" the article, which I believe is the more accurate statement. The edit was undone, so I have raised it here. Mackan79 (talk) 04:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, such a heated statement throws off the rest of the paragraph. If the Swedish government agreed that the article was a blood libel, it likely would not have refused to condemn the article, since clearly that would constitute hate speech. To present the response as claiming that the article was a blood libel necessitates a direct response to this point, of which there were many, but we do not include there. I am going to change it back again, also because the text is new, and hope that there can be further discussion of continuing issues. Mackan79 (talk) 06:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
The widespread criticism of the article is a separate issue (one which does not appear at all in the lead but should). The third paragraph of the lead deals with the diplomatic ruckus that the article led to. The blood libel comparison is central to the ruckus, since the Israeli government doesn't ask the Swedish government to condemn every article they think is crappy, only this one, obviously because the perceived blood libel overtones were deemed very serious. The comparison was made by Netanyahu and other Israeli ministers who addressed the article, perhaps every minister who did so. If Sweden rejected the comparison, that can go in. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 09:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
If several of them said this, I don't believe it was the first thing they said, or the first thing that was said by other sources covering this. The statement from Ben Cardin and Alcee Hastings doesn't refer to this, although it called the article "incendiary," focusing on the claim that Israel "harvested" organs. Certainly the Israeli government doesn't react this way often, but I don't think either you need to say it was considered a blood libel in order to explain the response. I am open to a clarification of why they initially condemned the article, just as long as it is clearly based in reliable sources and we can give a rounded picture ("The Israeli government and several US congresspersons condemned the article as baseless and incendiary, and asked the Swedish government to denounce it.") I think the concerns were more specific than what the article resembled, though, and I'm skeptical that this can be done effectively by starting with the comparison to a blood libel. Mackan79 (talk) 09:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree with your skepticism regarding the comparison. I'm OK with your suggested sentence, but I suggest working in somehow that the concern over the article's incendiary nature was stated to stem partly from the history of antisemitism and blood libels, as this was a central element of that concern. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 10:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Is is really noteworthy what a couple of Congressmen said? I don't believe governments normally consider them very important, since there are so many of them that some are bound to have oppinions. I believe 97% made no comment on this matter.93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Did the article say that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs?

Associated Press, United Press International, CNN, ABC News, BBC News, The Guardian and others say it did. If there is a significant minority of reliable secondary saying it didn't, we can say the matter is disputed. In the meantime, not a single one has been presented. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 22:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The matter is disputed, at the very least by Bodström and Aftonbladet. Steinberger (talk) 23:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
They are not secondary reliable sources on this matter. Not only that, but no source has been presented even showing that they dispute this. I read Bostrom's Navier interview, and he does not dispute it. Bring sources, and we'll talk, but right now you're just edit-warring in your original research. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 23:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't follow. What do you mean by "they"? And what do you mean by "he does not dispute it"? Steinberger (talk)
You hadn't presented a source showing that Bostrom or Aftonbladet denied that the original article claimed that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. In the Navier interview, which you cited, Bostrom does not make that denial. But never mind, I found a source myself where Bostrom does make that denial, and changed the lead to include his position. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 23:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Boström say he never wrote that, and that it is not in the article. Is that not a denial? Nevertheless and one other thing. You took away what I wrote about "Israeli discource": have you noticed that the AP, UPI, CNN, ABC articles you have used are written by correspondents in Jerusalem (or the "Middle East")? (BBC don't tell where, but Mark Weiss of Irish Times is based in Jerusalem if one believes Google.) It would be more credible if you found a article by a Stockholm correspondent saying the same thing as they do in Israel. Steinberger (talk) 00:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Like I said, Bostrom indeed made the denial, but only in the source I brought, not in the source you brought. Your idea regarding "Israeli discourse", and the attempt to support it with an analysis of where various reporters are based, are pure original research, and also happen not to be convincing. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
It is not original research to attribute the articles to it authors or to say where the correspondent resides. That would infact be quite appropriate. Steinberger (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Several of the sources say that the article made this claim, in most cases by using the AP story. Al Jazeera uses the same story, but without that specific claim. So, I think there is evidence of a difference in the reporting on this point. We could explain the difference, although it would mostly be original research. I don't think there is any significant discussion of the point in reliable sources, besides the newspaper's and Scheper-Hughes' denial that it made the claim. One Swedish source said that despite the denial this was just the "evidence chain" that Bostrom painted up, which I believe I quoted above. Otherwise it's just a point for us to be aware of in reporting, I think. We could note that following the December story, several news outlets reported that Aftonbladet had initially claimed that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to take their organs, although Bostrom, Aftonbladet, and Scheper-Hughes denied that the article made this claim. Mackan79 (talk) 04:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I take it we do not have a link to the original article? Stellarkid (talk) 04:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
It's linked in the article, although it's in Swedish. A translation is here. I believe a fair summary is that the article does not make the claim, but some here say that the article implies that they were killed for that purpose, and some newspapers have glossed the point with language stating that it did (I have only seen one Swedish source that focuses on the point, though others have been more specific in stating that the article implied it). Besides that is the fact (as far as I am aware) that this point was only raised after the December revelations with Dr. Hiss, but I think that is also necessary context, since the point basically has to do with whether those revelations showed the article to be correct. Mackan79 (talk) 04:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually, the first sentence contains a dangling modifier. Stellarkid (talk) 04:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Also, it is is titled a controversy, but the other side of this controversy isn't heard of til para 3 "The Israeli government and several US congresspersons condemned the article as baseless and incendiary, while noting the history of antisemitism and blood libels against Jews, and asked the Swedish government to denounce it." Since it is the disputation that makes this the Aftonbladet Israel "controversy," the Israeli side's view should be in the first paragraph along with the original story. The article is not a story about killing and plundering, it is an article about a "controversy" over a story about killing and plundering. Israel's side of it should be right up front. I hope I am making myself clear here. I really think an AfD is warranted here. If any further evidence comes up it could be revived. Stellarkid (talk) 04:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I believe the order is so that a reader gets some idea what was stated before they read that it was condemned. We briefly explain what the article is about, and then explain the response. If we put the response first I think the reader may be a bit confused. I may not be sure exactly what you would propose, though, if you would like to suggest something specific. As far as deletion, there has been quite a bit of coverage, so for that reason I think it's unlikely. Reading your comment again, though, I don't believe it is just the response that is the controversy; the controversy does include the events at the Abu Kabir Forsensic Institute. Mackan79 (talk) 04:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, if editors wish to highlight the most controversial aspects of the article in order to explain the Israeli response, they should keep in mind that Aftonbladet also claimed vindication with the later stories. In that regard, I think it would be hard to deny that the article is primarily focused on the fact that Palestinians disappeared and they were returned without their organs. It isn't for us to gloss the basic claims and focus only on those points where the sentiment remains that the article went too far. If the article went too far, that's just one part of the story. Mackan79 (talk) 04:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I will think on it further. Stellarkid (talk) 05:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I just removed the statement that the article did make this claim that Israel had been killing Palestinians for the purpose of stealing their organs, which I hadn't seen was added. The fact is that even Sydsvkenskan, the rival Swedish paper that sharply criticized the article, does not say that the article made this claim, but rather argues that the article implied it. My Swedish is well out of practice, but I believe the translation I provided above via Google Translate is accurate:

This seems to Aftonbladet and Donald Bostrom half when article this summer, he that Israel is stealing organs from Palestinians who then kill. In yesterday's Aftonbladet Culture Director Asa Linderborg that she "made even clearer that the Israeli army shoots Palestinian in order to steal the body," but it was precisely the Bostrom painted: organ shortage in the U.S. and Israel, organ theft in Israel, killing and cut open the Palestinians in Gaza.

See Google's version here (the fact that "Hiss," as in Dr. Yehuda Hiss, in Swedish means "elevator" may be especially confusing). The point is that, other than Bostrom, Aftonbladet, and Scheper-Hughes, all of whom deny that the article made the claim, this is the only source I'm aware of that actually looks at the issue. The others (all based on one AP story, as far as I am aware) summarize the story in a way that attributes this claim to the story, but only in passing and without any discussion. This does give us material to discuss the issue, I think, but certainly not to state categorically that the article made the claim despite Bostrom's denial. Mackan79 (talk) 06:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I brought nine high-quality, independent, reliable sources clearly stating that the Bostrom article claimed Israel killed Palestinians for their organs: AP, UPI, BBC, CNN, ABC, The Guardian, The Irish Times, Haaretz and The Jerusalem Post. I see you brought a tenth, the New York Times, above. Your perception that they are all based on one AP story and/or all date from after the Hiss interview revelation is incorrect: the UPI, BBC,CNN and Irish Times sources were published in the weeks following the original article, and way before the Hiss interview. I'm not sure I see how the perception would be relevant even if it were correct, but in any case, it isn't.
On the other hand, not one independent reliable source has been presented saying that the Bostrom article did not claim Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. Bostrom, Linderborg and Sheper-Hughes are obviously not independent reliable sources on this matter, either according to the rules or according to common sense. Furthermore, I don't see that Linderborg or Sheper-Hughes denied that Bostrom's article made the claim; it seems rather that that Linderborg believes it was ambiguous and Sheper-Hughes is referring to a different matter, namely, whether Bostrom's article claimed that the phenomenon was limited to Palestinians. The Sydsvkenskan writer seems to be saying that for all practical purposes Bostrom's article did make the claim, and he disputes the notion that the Hiss interview substantiated Bostrom's article in any way (which is the notion that makes the Hiss interview, and the question we're discussing, relevant to the controversy to begin with). This position is very similar to that of the ten reliable sources noted above. In any case, he certainly does not say that Bostrom did not make the claim, and so he cannot be used as a source to show that the position of the ten reliable sources is disputed.
Bottom line, unless and until it is shown that a significant minority of independent reliable sources say that Bostrom's article did not make the claim, we have no choice but to say that it did. Bostrom's (and possibly Linderborg's and Sheper-Hughes') denial of this can be noted. I'm changing the lead back to reflect this. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 23:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
The author in Sydsvenskan interpreted it in the way AP et al did. However, he is open with that it is a interpretation of the article. Unlike the sources you bring up. Steinberger (talk) 00:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Correction to my previous post: I just looked at they ynet article again, and even Bostrom does not dispute that his article said Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. He says "he did not mean to imply" that. This is a comment on his intent, not on the content of the article as it appeared. This means that at present, nobody (outside of Misplaced Pages, of course) has been shown to dispute this. Now I wouldn't be surprised to find sources showing that Bostrom or Linderborg did dispute this on other occasions, but until such sources are presented, we can't say that they did. I changed the lead again to accurately reflect what Bostrom said in the ynet article. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:19, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Jalapenos, I think that's clearly an incorrect understanding of NPOV. You had it stating "That claim was made in the original article, though Boström later said that he never meant to imply as much." This is to say that Bostrom makes a claim, but it is false. You cannot make this kind of a statement under NPOV, or WP:BLP for that matter. We report differing views on matters that are disputed; we do not decide that one is correct because the other somehow does not qualify as relevant in our view (even though we then immediately present it). It's an extremely clear violation of WP:NPOV. Mackan79 (talk) 00:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I could give you a bucket loads of blogs and other non-RS that openly disputes that the article said that. You really have to have a certain degree of paranoia to read that out of the article, or to be a genuine antisemite. I don´t deny that it is possible to misunderstand, as you points out Boström does not deny that either. But it is not explicit in the article, in that case you would be able to provide a qoute from the original article, right? So it should not stand "was in the original article", because it is not. It was read in to the original article, but that is a slightly different thing. Steinberger (talk) 00:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Also your interpretation of the attribution to Scheper-Hughes is unfounded; she says that many interpreted it "erroneously as the Israeli army killing Palestinians to access their organs" ("Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon.") Lindborg is also clear: "Kanske borde vi även gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ, de tar organ när de dödat av andra skäl – skäl som världens mest moraliska armé alltid anser sig ha." Specifically, "Perhaps we should have made even clearer that the Israeli army does not shoot Palestinians with the intention of stealing organs, they take the organs when they are killed for other reasons -- reasons that the world's most ethical army always sees itself to have." She then says it wouldn't matter how clear they had been. We could request a third party translation if you like, but I think the statements are quite clear in context. Mackan79 (talk) 00:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
@Mackan1: the point you raise is moot, since, properly understood, there is no contradiction between what Bostrom says and what the ten reliable sources say. Bostrom says he did not mean to imply x; The 10 say the article says x. Incidentally, I disagree with your interpretation of WP:NPOV. The policy requires us to give primacy to the main POV. Ideally, we would say "AP, UPI etc. say x; Bostrom says y". That is in fact what I did in the body of the article. But in the lead brevity is required, so we should give primacy without spelling out the whole list, but if you really want to spell it out, I could live with that. I'm also surprised that you didn't object to Steinberger's previous version, which had a classic false parity by saying something like "it was reported that x, but Bostrom explained that y".
@Steinberger: I think you're wrong in how you interpret the Bostrom article, but it doesn't matter what either of us think; it matters what the secondary sources think. You're entitled to the opinion that AP, UPI, CNN, BBC etc. are either paranoid or genuinely antisemitic, but according to WP:V it doesn't matter in the slightest if they are.
@Mackan2: if you're going to press this point, then I would like a third party translation. Your quote from the Sheper-Hughes interview is a statement in the voice of the article leading in to a quote by SH in which she disputes a different issue. Either SH does not coherently state a position on the issue we're discussing, or the article mis-states her position. Linderborg is most certainly not saying that the article did not make the claim. What she is saying is that the claim is false. (In my opinion her statement is actually an admission that the article did make the claim, but I'm assuming you will not agree with me, so I won't press the matter.) Needless to say, I'm all for presenting everybody's position in the body of the text, at whatever level of detail needed to ensure there is no reasonable dispute as to the accuracy of the presentation. But this will probably not be possible in the lead, unless we do it with short quotes, as I did with Bostrom. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Your sources can only be used to verify that it have been summarized that way. Not that "it is" in the article. For that it breeches NPOV as Boström disputes it. Steinberger (talk) 01:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Nope, they should be used to verify what they say, which is that Bostrom's article claimed Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. And Bostrom doesn't dispute it -- you're continuing to misrepresent his remarks. He merely states that he did not intend to make that claim. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
No, its you who misrepresents his remarks. He say he never maid that claim, that it is a lie that he did so. Steinberger (talk) 01:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
This is a new source. I hate to be a nitpicker, but in this source he also does not deny that his article claimed Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. He says it's a lie to state that he wrote that soldiers hunt for youths to take their organs. Killing someone, whom you've captured, for their organs, is different than capturing them with the original purpose of taking their organs. I don't believe I've seen any source saying that he wrote the second thing. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 02:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Are you seriously suggesting that he didn't refer to the summarization we talk about now? That he instead reefers to a misinterpretation of that summary? I think that is very far fetched. I find it obvious that he do refer to the "killed to harvest" claim. That he meant it that way is also implied by the follow-up questions from Levy. Steinberger (talk) 02:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I seriously don't think he was referring specifically to any group of newspaper articles reporting on his article, but to the controversy in general. I also think that, as people often do in these situations, he was choosing the most extreme available position, whether real or imagined, to attack. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 02:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I also believe that he is elaborating some. But I also think it is clear that he refers to the general "killed to harvest" claim and not the controversy in general. Steinberger (talk) 03:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I haven't read the various responses mentioned here but if they are as Jalapenos has said (ie 'hunt for' and 'did not mean to imply') then we must take them at their word. All we have is the language they use, not to put to fine a point on it. Not our own interpretations but the words they say, no more, no less. Stellarkid (talk) 05:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
That is correct, but in this case Jalapenos do omit the context. Steinberger (talk) 06:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The Haaretz article attributes to Bostrom: "Like for example that they say I wrote that the soldiers hunted for youths so as to take their organs. It's obvious that's a lie." That seems quite clearly a denial that he made the claim we are discussing here. Mackan79 (talk) 07:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

You seem to have missed some of the comments above. He's denying that the article claimed soldiers hunted for Palestinians to take their organs. Indeed, I haven't seen anyone claim that the article said that. This is different from the question of whether soldiers killed Palestinians for their organs (whom they may have captured for other reasons in the course of their duty). Jalapenos do exist (talk) 09:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
He elaborated some, but that does not obscure what he mean when it is put in context. However, from what you writes above you seem to have missed that Haaretz from the 18th of August summarized the article as "Israeli soldiers are abducting Palestinians in order to steal their organs" (my italics). That excludes your "other reasons in the course of their duty". Similarly in the Jerusalem Post editorial, where they use other words such as "that the IDF murders young Palestinian Arabs to enable the harvesting of their organs for transplanting." (my italics) Also in that example, it is indirectly said that Boström answers the question why they where killed in the article. But he does not. If you read carefully, he does not come close. The "organ shortage" is given in the original article as a reason for his own investigations in 1992 - it is not given as a reason for the Israeli practice, for example. Steinberger (talk) 10:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

You seem all to have missed the crucial point: the article did not claim that anyone was killed for the purpose of harvesting organs, because the article does not claim that any organs were harvested at all. It claimed merely that there are indications that this had happened, and that the matter should be investigated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.7.82 (talk) 04:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)


References

  1. Israel Took Organs of Dead Without Permission By Simon McGregor-Wood, ABC News, December 21, 2009.
  2. Cite error: The named reference ghiss was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. Cite error: The named reference apk was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. Cite error: The named reference upik was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. Cite error: The named reference bbck was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. Cite error: The named reference cnnk was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  7. Cite error: The named reference itk was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  8. Cite error: The named reference hk was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  9. Cite error: The named reference jpk was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  10. Cite error: The named reference gur was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Second paragraph in lead

Mackan deleted part of this paragraph with the comment "This is not the place for us to pick out what we think is the most controversial thing in the article, even if this were accurate". Since this (Misplaced Pages) article is not about the Aftonbladet article but about the controversy surrounding the Aftonbladet article, of course we should point out the most controversial parts of it. Why else would we even have the second paragraph be about the article, if not to clarify what the controversy was about? As for the accuracy issue, but this is the removed sentence:

It also featured allegations that Israel deprived living Palestinians of their organs before killing them.

and this is the quote from the article on which I based the sentence:

I then travelled around interviewing a great number of Palestininan families in the West Bank and Gaza – meeting parents who told of how their sons had been deprived of organs before being killed.

What's the problem? Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

He say a lot in the article and it is wrong to highlight some arbitrary statement. If you find it very important, there is a whole section where the article is to be summarized. It is nothing for the lead. Steinberger (talk) 01:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
If you have any suggestions as to what to put in the second paragraph instead of that sentence, or if you believe that it shouldn't exist, then say so. But it's very odd to keep that paragraph very short, as if we were trying to hide something. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 02:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Agree. That is what the article said. The IDF shoots first, takes the organs, and then kills young Palestinian boys. Then they stitch them back up in the preposterous form that we saw in the photograph, wrap them in something, and deliver these boys back home in the middle of the night. The soldiers stick around, laughing and joking while the boy's relatives are made to dig the graves, and bury the child. This is journalism? Pulp fiction is more like it. Stellarkid (talk) 05:15, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
You are focusing on one sentence in the article, but not accurately representing it. The article says in one sentence that the Palestinians claimed organs were taken and then the men killed. The rest of the article is clearly focused solely on the fact that Palestinians were disappearing and then being returned with bizarre wounds on their bodies. One can understand why it would be claimed now that the article went too far, but it is not the only position. As Scheper-Hughes says, there is a serious ethical issue here regardless of how the Palestinians died. So why is it assumed that, clearly, Aftonbladet wanted to make it into something much worse than what actually happened, when what happened is itself a headline? That one sentence may have suggested something which some believe was inappropriate to suggest does not make the whole article about that sentence. I will admit to wondering if it is thought that Bostrom should have ignored what the Palestinians were claiming, or sanitized their claims, even now that the basis for the story is reasonably known. I don't think one can paint all of this in such stark colors. Mackan79 (talk) 07:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
The story seems to have been right in essence - but the authorities contested the most contraversial point they could find, before quietly admitting that they had, indeed, killed Palestinians but stolen their organs because they were dead - rather than killing them expressly for that purpose. Will try and find reliable sources for this.93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
No I am not focusing or misrepresenting one sentence. There are a number of sentences that are highly troublesome here.

While the campaign was running, young Palestinian men started to disappear from villages in the West Bank and Gaza. After five days Israeli soldiers would bring them back dead, with their bodies ripped open. --{Here is one accusation}

The person they were assigned to put out of action was Bilal Achmed Ghanan, one of the stone-throwing Palestinian youngsters who made life difficult for the Israeli soldiers.-- {They are just "youngsters" who merely throw stones, and soldiers are assigned to kill them}

Together with other stone-throwing boys he hid in the Nablus mountains, with no roof over his head. Getting caught meant torture and death for these boys – they had to stay in the mountains at all costs.-- {just a youngster, a boy with no roof no home, to be killed by Israeli soldiers (like the dogs they are) (that is the implication)}

On May 13 Bilal made an exception, when for some reason, he walked unprotected past the carpentry workshop. Not even Talal, his older brother, knows why he took this risk. Maybe the boys were out of food and needed to restock. --{the boys were hungry, and had no home, just because they threw stones at the Israelis}

Everything went according to plan for the Israeli special force. The soldiers stubbed their cigarettes, put away their cans of Coca-Cola, and calmly aimed through the broken window. When Bilal was close enough they needed only to pull the triggers. The first shot hit him in the chest. According to villagers who witnessed the incident he was subsequently shot with one bullet in each leg. Two soldiers then ran down from the carpentry workshop and shot Bilal once in the stomach. {The killing plan went well for the Israelis. They were not out of food or without a roof or home. They had cans of Coke and plenty of cigarettes. The Israelis shot the boy in cold blood, in the chest and in the stomach, as well as the legs. It is not clear why they would shoot in such vital organs if they were planning to use the organs but that's another question for another time}

Together with the sharp noises from the shovels we could hear laughter from the soldiers who, as they waited to go home, exchanged some jokes. As Bilal was put in the grave his chest was uncovered. Suddenly it became clear to the few people present just what kind of abuse the boy had been exposed to. Bilal was not by far the first young Palestinian to be buried with a slit from his abdomen up to his chin. {The soldiers laugh and joke as the villagers bury the dead youngster. For them it is nothing. This is "far from the first." There are many questions that are unanswered here, not the least of which is why the military would return these boys at all. No sources are given in this article or for the accusations made in this story. Inferences are drawn and stories are told. I think to call this pulp fiction is to do a kindness to the story.} What is wrong with this analysis? That is how I read it. Stellarkid (talk) 06:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem with your 'analysis' is that it is totaly POV. Many bodies have not been returned. The Israeli Gov't has confirmed that organs were stolen, and bodies returned as described above. If you read the wikipedia article, and the cited sources you would be less ill-informed. Palestinians are human beings. Journalistic expression is not always neutral. You are obviously blinded by your bias.93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
The problem with Stellarkid story is that he does not keep the different stories and rumors Boström tells of apart (he combines at least two for his "analysis"). One have to be very stringent in keeping unrelated things apart. As an example (Stellarkid is innocent of) I have read that Boström "linked" Operation Big Rig to IDF and Palestinans. His mentioning of Operation Big Rig is really used as a background, to support his notion that investigations must be launched. Such types of distortions is really a breach of WP:BLP. Steinberger (talk) 14:37, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
How do I not keep the different stories apart? This is the story of Bilal, the one that Boström claims to have been around for. This is one story here. And I agree that he mentions other "stories" (hearsay as well as unrelated, unverified and unanalyzed stories) to push his inference that the Israelis are killing in order to steal organs. To listen to this story, it is clear the author would have us believe the soldiers are evil people that would make even the Nazis look good. That is why this story is rubbish and clearly not journalism and why so many condemned it! The only justification for such rubbish is "free speech" and free speech is justification for saying virtually anything, no matter how evil or inciteful or even false. That is the whole concept behind the "blood libel" and why this is a good example of it. Stellarkid (talk) 15:58, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
You previously wrote that "the IDF shoots first, takes the organs, and then kills young Palestinian boys." The latter part of that quote is not in the Bilal story. Steinberger (talk) 16:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
The story says this: "On an assignment from a broadcasting network I then travelled around interviewing a great number of Palestinian families in the West Bank and Gaza – meeting parents who told of how their sons had been deprived of organs before being killed. One example that I encountered on this eerie trip was the young stone-thrower Bilal Achmed Ghanan." He clearly says they took his organs and then killed him. No? Stellarkid (talk) 16:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
No. It is clearly an general example of organ theft, but it is not entirely clear that it is an example of kill-after-harvest allegations. Steinberger (talk) 17:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
The more I read it the clearer it seems to me. Bilal was cited as one example of sons being "deprived of organs before being killed." Further he goes on to say that he was "not by far the first".... Stellarkid (talk) 18:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I read it as a more specific example of what that paragraph is about, eg. what he encountered on his trip around the West Bank. Steinberger (talk) 18:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
lol! Stellarkid (talk) 03:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

It is almost impossible to misunderstand what "example" hints at in the Swedish original but neither Aftonbladet nor Tlaxcala gives that sentence justice in their translations so... laugh on. The original article states "Ett av de exempel jag träffade på under denna kusliga resa var den unge stenkastaren Bilal Achmed Ghanan." Both Tlaxcala and Aftonbladet translate that into "One example that I encountered on this eerie trip was the young stone-thrower Bilal Achmed Ghanan." But that is not entirely correct. Google translate does a somewhat better work with beginning of the sentence when it produce "One of the examples I came across during this spooky trip was the young stone author Bilal Ahmed Ghanian." Personally, I would translate the sentence to "One of the examples I encountered during this eerie journey was the young stown-thrower Bilal Ahmed Ghanian." The translators at Tlaxcala and Aftonbladet might have been confused by the fact that "exempel" is not inflicted in Swedish, but is in English. To fit the singular form "example", maybe they omitted "of the" to correct the English grammar. Nevertheless, as it should be "examples" in plural the sentence is only related to what is said before, not "one example of" what is said right before. And the following story could in fact be something quite different, albeit related to organ theft. Steinberger (talk) 09:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Translation request

I'll post on the Swedish Wikiproject a request to translate the following paragraphs.

Thanks, Mackan. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 02:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

It took that a while to have the last two excerpts translated, so I did it myself. I know that Jalapenos thinks that I am biased in favor for Aftonbladet, but I reckon that it is easier to persuade some third party to critically review my translation then to have them making it from scratch. So I hereby encourage every Swedish-speaking user who sees this to read and correct my translations (the latter two from Aftonbladet) so that they are as correct as possible and that they don't make what they say any greater then it is. Steinberger (talk) 05:31, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Sydsvenskan

Original: "Intervjun med Hiss gjordes för nio år sedan men idag bekräftar israelisk militär att organstölder förekommit där hornhinnor, hjärtklaffar, hud och ben tagits från döda israeler (civila såväl som militärer), palestinier och gästarbetare.

Detta verkar ge Aftonbladet och Donald Boström rätt till hälften när han i en uppmärksammad artikel i somras menade att Israel stjäl organ från palestinier som man sedan dödar. I gårdagens Aftonbladet beklagar kulturchefen Åsa Linderborg att hon inte ”gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ”, men det var ju just den indiciekedjan Boström målade upp: organbrist i USA och Israel, organstöld i Israel, dödade och uppsprättade palestinier i Gaza."

Translation: The interview with Hiss was done nine years ago, but today Israeli military confirms that organ theft have occurred where corneas, heart valves, skin and bone have been taken from dead Israelis (both civilian and military), Palestinians and guest workers.

This seem to give Aftonbladet and Donald Boström half right when he in a noticed article this summer implied that Israel steals organs from Palestianians that are later killed. In yesterday's Aftonbladet the head of culture Åsa Linderborg regrets that she has not "made it clearer that the Israeli army not shoots Palestinians with the intent to harvest organs", but that was the chain of indices Boström painted: organ shortage in USA and Israel, organ theft in Israel, killed and opened Palestinians in Gaza.

Discussion:

I would add a 'does' in, "made it clearer that the Israeli army does not shoots Palestinians with the intent to harvest organs", but not reall sure if there is any difference. --Stefan 14:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Lindborg 1

Original: "Israeliska myndigheter förnekade kraftfullt anklagelserna och israeliska befattningshavare kallade artikeln för 'antisemitisk'.

Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon:

– Men symboliken i att ta hud från den befolkning som uppfattas som fienden, och använda huden för den egna militären ... det är något som just på grund av dess symbolik är värt att fundera över, säger Nancy Sheppard-Hughes."

Translation:

"Israeli authorities forcefully denied the accusations and Israeli officials called the article 'anti-semitic'.

Many of those who heard about he article perceived it, according to Sheppard-Huges, falsely as if the Israeli army killed Palestinians to get at their organs. What happened at the Kabir institute was bad enough as it was and it affected all kinds of humans, not only Palestinians, she said:

- But the symbolism of taking skin from the population that is perceived as the enemy, and use the skin for it's own military ... that is something that just because of its symbolism of it that is worth tinking about, said Nancy Sheppard-Hughes."

Discussion:

But the symbolism of taking skin from the populationpeople that is perceivedunderstood as the enemy, ansd useing the skin fort the it's own military ... that is just something that just because of its with sympolism of it that is worth tinking about --Stefan 14:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Lindborg 2

Original: "När jag läser artikeln i efterhand kan jag begripa dem som inte förstår hur sommarens organskandal i New Jersey skulle ha att göra med de händelser Boström bevittnade för 17 år sedan på Västbanken och sedan dess försökt engagera världen i. New Jersey med sina israeliska kopplingar var en möjlighet för Boström att aktualisera och uppmärksamma samma brott som engagerat honom ända sedan han första gången skrev om dem i sin bok Inshallah.

För mig var det en självklarhet, men jag begriper om det inte var det för alla. Kanske borde vi även gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ, de tar organ när de dödat av andra skäl – skäl som världens mest moraliska armé alltid anser sig ha. Boström påstår heller inget annat och troligen är denna min själv kritik fåfäng; ockupationsmaktens medlöpare skulle ändå ljugit ihop och tjatat in sin tolkning."

Translation: "Reading the article in retrospect, I can understand those who does not understand how this summers organ scandal in New Jersey would have any connection with the events that Boström witnessed 17 years ago. New Jersey with its Israeli connections was an opportunity for Boström to draw notice to and making the same crimes that have engaged him every since he for the first time wrote about them in his book Inshallah topical.

For me that was self-evident, but I understand if it wasn't for everyone. Maybe we should have made it even clearer that the Israeli army does not shoot Palestinians in order to steal their organs, they take organs when they have killed for other reasons - reasons the worlds most moral army always thinks they have. Neither does Boström claim otherwise and probably this my self-criticism is in vain; the accomplices of the occupation force would lie together and rub in their interpretation anyway. "

Discussion:

"New Jersey would have anything to do with the events that Boström witnessed on the west bank 17 years ago and have tried to engage the world in"
not sure but think anything is wrong, but not sure what to change it to, maybe any connection --Stefan 15:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
"For Boström, New Jersey with its Israeli connections was an opportunity for Boström to draw notice.", why make this change, both are correct English I think?? --Stefan 15:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
For me that was self-evident for me, but I understand if it not wasn't it for everyone. Maybe we should have made it even clearer that the Israeli army does not shoot Palestinians in order to steal their organs, they take the organs when they have killed for other reasons - reasons the worlds most moral army always thinks they have. Neither does Boström claim otherwise and probably this my self-criticism is in vain; the accomplices of the occupation force would lie together and rub in their interpretation anyway. " Sorry had some wikimarkup issues, underline or bold means my addition strike though my deletion--Stefan 15:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, I have implemented all your suggestions both texts I am responsible for translating. Some where genuine misses from my part ("for Boström" and "my" for example), other more a matter of style. If you wonder why I moved "for Boström" it was because of "att aktualisera" was so hard to fit in to the same place in the sentence in English ("make topical"), so I moved some words around and didn't notice that I had overdone it. Steinberger (talk) 20:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Do not worry, you did a very good job, I doubt I could have done as well, I just did some nitpicking after you did the hard work :-). For none Swedish spekers, the Swedish text is actually not that good, there are some grammatical inconstancies that is 'translated' into the English, e.g. "Neither does Boström claim otherwise and probably this my self-criticism is in vain" which talks from a third person perspective and then switches to first in the same sentence. The Swedish text does the same thing so I think it should be 'translated' like that, even though it looks like na error in translation, when in fact it is a error in the original writing. --Stefan 01:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Useful References for Research

This article is probably not a reliable source, but it has a good selection of relevant references from reliable sources, for anyone wishing to improve the article. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/aw-organs2.html#notes93.96.148.42 (talk) 04:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Plot Spoiler's massive changes

Plot Spoiler is removing any mention of Yehuda Hiss from this article despite the obvious, common sense relevance of Hiss to this topic. Anyway, many sources make the connection; it took me 5 seconds to find Forward Magazine explicitly connecting the two here.

Please stop, PlotSpoiler, and establish consensus before gutting this article.Factsontheground (talk) 10:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

How it's currently framed is obvious WP:Original research and WP:NPOV, creating an unnatural connection between the two subjects when it isn't even discussed in those articles themselves. There is no consensus needed in this case. If you want to make a connection, you'll have to rework it so that there is in fact a direct connection and not some WP:original research you created for your own purposes. Plot Spoiler (talk) 10:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
It's not original research because the sources repeatedly make that connection themselves. Have you bothered to read the sources, Plot Spoiler?
Al Ahram makes the connection.
Al-Jazeera makes the connection.
Irish Times makes the connection.
Forward Magazine makes the connection.
Your changes are massive and disruptive. Again, please obtain consensus instead of just edit warring. Factsontheground (talk) 10:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
So is this about Hiss or is that about Bostrom's original article? Bostrom did not talk about Hiss in his original article and it had nothing to do about his claims at that point. This is just added information to find a means to corroborate his findings, but this was not part of the actual controversy itself, was it not? Plot Spoiler (talk) 11:53, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
So are you conceding that the connection is not just original research then, but is in fact supported by many sources? If so, this would confirm that you did not read the sources in this article before making massive changes. In future, can you please read the sources before making assertions as to what they do or do not say? Factsontheground (talk) 18:29, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
... and as the original article does mention Abu Kabir and Aftonbladet see the Hiss interview as rehabilitating, proving them right all along, it is relevant enough to mention. The controversy also influenced Nancy Sheper-Huges to publish her material. Steinberger (talk) 12:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

The alleged claim that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs

I have removed the following sentence, regarding Hiss's revelations, from the lede, as it is not supported by the body. The body states that the claim that the article claimed that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs is disputed by the authors, and publishers. Hence the sentence is not representative of the article, and inappropriate in the lede, unless it explains who made the claim. "There was nothing in the interview to substantiate the claim that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 (talk) 05:43, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

References

  1. Israel Took Organs of Dead Without Permission By Simon McGregor-Wood, ABC News, December 21, 2009.
  2. Cite error: The named reference ghiss was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Israeli officials labelling the report as anti-semitic

This was removed: Israeli officials denounced the report at the time, labeling it "anti-Semitic," but did not comment on the specific allegations

Are there specific objections to it? It seems to be WP:V and fairly notable. Unomi (talk) 08:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Here is another source: http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=171732

The council and the commissioner’s office, “however unwittingly, helped to propagate an anti-Semitic libel by publishing as an official UN document,” wrote UN Watch Executive Director Hillel Neuer.

He called on the UN council and high commissioner to “immediately cease circulating this racist, hateful and inflammatory text to the ambassadors and other delegates of the UNHRC.”

Unomi (talk) 09:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

It is the label by Israelis. We should not add anti-semitic category to the article only because of this.sicaspi (talk) 14:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

References

  1. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=248510

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No anti-Semitic conspiracy theory

@Repropo: The label conspiracy theory is controversial and thus that some people have called it a conspiracy theory is not sufficient. And fwiw, those who called it a conspiracy theory did so before the full extent of the scandal was well-known. Israeli doctors engaged in illicit organ harvesting which you can read about here: The Body of the Terrorist: Blood Libels, Bio-Piracy, and the Spoils of War at the Israeli Forensic Institute ImTheIP (talk) 07:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

External links

Though sections 23-27 on this page indicate the article's page once had external links why aren't there any there at the moment? Mcljlm (talk) 01:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

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